Is there a caste system in Mormonism?

[Grandma]

I think Mormonism is unchristian. One of the reasons is that they are very judgmental.

The Bible says:

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Philippians 2:3

Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Romans 12:10

The Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, says:

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

IOW, faith in Christ and His promise of eternal life doesn't make believers equal. In fact, non-Mormons and even some Mormons are considered less worthy than the elite inner circle among Mormons. The less worthy won't have eternal life. Why are people resurrected and turned into angels, and then considered unworthy of eternal life if they had faith in Christ?

Is there any verse in the Bible that says some of Christ's sheep will be made into angels? Or that some of His sheep aren't as good or pure as the others?

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The way I read that the sheep are not separated from one another. The sheep are called "ye blessed of my Father."

Can someone tell me why Mormons believe the sheep should be separated from one another?

Thank you.

Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Grandma]

So let's see here, you have been proven wrong in every conversation about doctrine so you resort to bashing? For starters, who is the "they"? The PEOPLE are a they, Mormonism is not. Second, we're not judgmental, or at least not supposed to be as the scriptures teach. Of course the scriptures do say to make righteous judgment.

I agree that we should make righteous judgment over civil matters. But are we to judge the hearts of other believers?

The Bible says:

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Philippians 2:3

Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Romans 12:10



As far as Doctrine and Covenants go, that book of revelations is from the Lord.

Do you think it should agree with the New Testament?



What you reference isn't judgmental at all.

How can it not be --- stating that a Mormon is more worthy than any Christian and might even be worthier that some Mormons.



Know you not that the scriptures declare there are "greater" rewards for some than for others? To be greater means there are degrees of reward.

Where do you see that? You gave me no reference.

Here is what I see:

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

How can a believer have more than all?




People who marry without getting sealed to one another are merely guaranteeing themselves a divorce contract that takes effect at death. Their marriage is not bound by God or His authority. Those who are sealed in the temple make covenants with the Lord.

Christians who marry agree to Christian standards of marriage. They are high standards and very specific ones in the New Testament.



When we keep our part, He keeps His. He is bound to His word.

Whereas that sounds in keeping with Mormonism, it doesn't agree with the Bible. In the Bible God has mercy on some. He retains that right.


Having faith in Christ is significant but it isn't the only requirement God has given us. To receive eternal life, exaltation, means we MUST be sealed in the temple and live the covenants.

The New Covenant is one of grace, not works. The Covenant of Grace is one in which God promises eternal salvation to believers based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It is initiated by God to unworthy humans.



There's repentance (something that doesn't stop when we accept Jesus as our Savior), baptism (which Jesus said we can't enter the kingdom without), receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end such as being sealed to a spouse, doing missionary work (Ezekiel teaches us of the importance of this duty as saints of the Messiah), etc.

These deeds are not what grants us salvation.


How can someone be a sheep of the Good Shepherd if they're not willing to go full in with what Jesus has commanded us?

His sheep know Him and follow Him. They keep commandments because they are children of light, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that His sheep should walk in them. The purpose of keeping the commandments is to bring glory to God. We don't need rewards because we've already been given all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:One believer isn't on a lower rung than another.

Galatians 5
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Can you swim by putting one foot in the pool while sitting at the side? No, you can't. Just as you can't be called a swimmer by putting not even a fraction of yourself in the water, a person cannot rightly claim to be part of Zion if the person stops his spiritual journey after the first step. In the gospel of Jesus Christ there is no fence sitting, you either move forward or move backward.

We share a yoke with Christ. He doesn't cause us to go backwards.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[MickeyS]

How can it not be --- stating that a Mormon is more worthy than any Christian and might even be worthier that some Mormons.



Oh my word....that's not what Mormons say...Doctrine & Covenants is specifically a book of revelations that come directly from The Lord. This isn't what Mormons say about others....you're so silly.

Where in that scripture is it MAN judging ANYONE?? Please indicate, you can't...it even states in the header that it is a revelation.

So even if YOU don't believe it's a revelation....we do...so you can't accuse us of saying it...because we didn't, and we most certainly don't believe MAN did. The Lord did. Sorry. And it's not anything He hasn't already taught, it's just being expounded on.

But the scripture in itself is speaking of the degrees of eternities...which is still much more merciful then Heaven or Hell and nothing in between. This eternal torment for not believing in Christ, is really harsh...but then if you don't believe God is our Father and we're just disposable "creations" unless we believe in His Son, I guess I can see how you might believe that. I personally don't believe that any person is a lower human being than another simply because of what they believe, that they are disposable to be tossed into eternal Hell for not being the right kind of Christian, and that God ONLY loves those who believe in His Son, and doesn't even consider the rest... because I know we are ALL God's children. Any of the degrees of GLORY (they're called that for a reason) is a reward...any of them will be far better than this life. It's just what you do with your life that will determine where YOU want to be for the rest of eternity. You are fully in control of that. God is fair. How do you call that judgmental?

And then on the other hand, you're judging US and saying we're not going to Heaven...AT ALL. Not a lesser degree, not a smidge of glory, not at all. We won't even be consider children of God. Now thats harsh.

Because this is what we do..

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Yet you still judge us that we're not going to Heaven.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[Grandma]

Saying what the scriptures say and telling someone "you're going to the dwelling place of Satan" are two entirely different things.

Doctrine and Covenants and the New Testament do agree with one another. I've read every book of the standard works many times in accordance with the Holy Ghost. There's no disagreement in the two.

Let's refer to the ancient children of Israel. Has God ever been a respecter of persons? No. However, the Messiah set certain standards individuals must have met in order to enter the rooms of the tabernacle with the standards varying for each part of this holy place.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Can you show me even one verse in the Bible (or Book of Mormon) where baptisms or marriages were ever performed in the temple?

The temples were used for sacrifices and burnt offerings. There was a heavy curtan that separated the holy of holies from the outer holy place. No one except the high priest was allowed to enter the holy of holies. Once a year in Yom Kippur the high priest put the blood of the sacrifice on the top of the Ark (known as the mercy seat) for the people's sins to be forgiven.

Mark 15: 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. When Jesus died upon the cross, at the moment of his death the heavy curtain which separated the holy of holies from the holy place was torn in two from the top down. Jesus is the only High Priest that we need.

Hebrews 7: 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Hebrews 10: 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.





Refer to Matthew 23:14, Luke 20:47, James 3:1, Luke 23:41, Romans 2:5-11, and the entire list goes on. The first few speak of varying levels of ****ation, the last bit talks about God rewarding everyone according to their deeds. You'll need to read them yourself. I prefer letting others search and study rather than just copy and paste the scripture.

According to our deeds whether good (believers) or bad (unbelievers).

John 5
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

I've read Matthew, Luke, James and Romans several times.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



Standards and covenants aren't the same thing. You can be married to the seemingly most Christian person ever and if that marriage isn't sealed in the temple, the only place where a temple is bonded by God's authority, the marriage is still a divorce contract at death. A devout Baptist and a devout Methodist can marry each other but their sincerity doesn't make their marriage eternal.


Of course, not! Marriage isn't meant to be eternal.


God has mercy on the righteous

If a person is righteous he needs no mercy.


and even the wicked unto chastisement so they may be brought unto repentance. But yes, God does keep His promises. If He didn't, He wouldn't be an honest Being and that can't happen.

I know what the grace of God is. I've studied this principle very thoroughly, especially through the words of Alma and Paul. In my reading of the book of Galatians this past Thursday, looking to examine the subject of grace, not once does the apostle say grace is imparted for just having faith alone. Alma, just like Paul, taught that we are to put off all ungodliness. This includes the natural man's tendency to be disobedient to the commandments of God. You and other critics constantly make the false accusation that we believe salvation is by works. Not once has any Mormon on this forum said this. I've repeated this over and over, and obviously I'll continue having to do so since none of you seem to grasp this simple concept, but saying certain works are essential is NOT the same as saying they save. They're a variable, not the causation. Do you believe doing the certain things Christ said we must do are optional? Repentance? Baptism? What did Peter say in an answer to a mul***ude as to what they were to do? Repent, be baptized, and endure to the end. The first commission the resurrected Lord gave the apostles was to preach that those who "believe and are baptized" would be saved. He didn't say believe and get baptized if you want, He said we must do both.

Faith is a gift of God's grace, not a product of men. We can't earn it because God gives it according to the pleasure of his will.



You're right on one thing, we don't need rewards, but God still sees fit to give each individual their reward according to their deeds.

You don't realize that all believers receive the same rewards:all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. "A-L-L" blessings!


We share the yoke with Christ when we are walking in righteousness. When we sin we must repent. Repentance isn't something you stop doing because you know Jesus is the Lord. "The devils also believe and tremble."

The devils haven't been born again. Those whom God saves are sharing the yoke with Christ. He is leading and He doesn't lead us into sin.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

When I meditate on God's love, it takes my breath away!

In Christian love,

Grandma

[MickeyS]

Grandma said


You don't realize that all believers receive the same rewards...

Then why do you say we're not receiving the same reward?

[MickeyS]

Grandma said


These deeds are not what grants us salvation.

According to our deeds whether good (believers) or bad (unbelievers).

So which is it? Do, or don't our deeds grant salvation?

[MickeyS]

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated usunto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Can somebody please explain to me how anybody can be blessed, chosen and predestinated before the foundation of the worldif they didn't exist then?

[Grandma]

If there are Christians in the "lower levels of the CK and in the Terrestrial Kingdom," then there is a caste system in Mormonism.

[MickeyS]

If there are Christians in the "lower levels of the CK and in the Terrestrial Kingdom," then there is a caste system in Mormonism.

Again....it has nothing to do with "Mormonism". If there is a "caste system" it was created by God, since it's His system :)

[MickeyS]

If there are Christians in the "lower levels of the CK and in the Terrestrial Kingdom," then there is a caste system in Mormonism.

But let's see....caste system....definition - A social structure in which cl***es are determined by heredity. Since we believe we're all children of God....yeah, I don't think we believe in a caste system.


You, however, believe only certain people can EVER be children of God...so it seems to me YOU believe in a caste system.