God Never Sinned - Do Mormons Agree?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyH61ybnPBE

[Erundur]

Of course. Do Protestants?

[alanmolstad]

as the video shows.....

mormons have some strange / differing ideas about their sinning god....

[MickeyS]

as the video shows.....

mormons have some strange / differing ideas about their sinning god....

Yawn....so somebody got some members of the LDS church to make speculations of the pre-mortal state of God. Nice strawman, but completely irrelevant to our eternal progression, and NO, GOD has not sinned.

Btw....do you "Chtistians" EVER disagree on anything? I see contradictory statements and differing viewpoints all the time...does that make you non-believers? Why are you wasting time with this again?

[alanmolstad]

Now the first time I ever heard of this idea that Mormons believe in a sinning god, was from some type of video I saw many years ago.
its been a long time, and i cant remember everything about it, but I was listening to a video on TV or on the computer and all of the sudden I started to see that this Mormon guy was talking about his god being a past sinner???

A few years later the topic did come up again on a message forum i was a member of and I told the story of the one Mormon guy I had heard in a video before.

Now at first it was attacked as just being a non-Mormon teaching and it was compared to Christian in-house debates over teachings, but then later one of the Christians found what i think was the same video or written work I had seen many years before and it turns out that it was not just a lone Mormon making up ideas on his own, but was a rather well known radio talk show host who was spreading this teaching that the Mormon god has sinned.


I have not done a GOOGLE search on the topic of "Mormon god is a sinner" and im not sure what else is to be found in that?
But it might be interesting to see how this idea is looked at by many other Mormons who are also doing video BLOGS and stuff, and have their own shows on radio or the web?

[alanmolstad]

this link is to the first hit I got when doing a little search this mornin on the question of the "sinning Mormon god"

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58202-did-god-ever-sin/

[alanmolstad]

when you look at the statements by the Mormons themselves on the link what we see over and over is a feeling that the Mormons just cant say "no" to this question.

they twist things one way and then the other, but the thing that are twisting away from is a direct answer of "NO!"

they say a lot of words, they connect one teaching about their god to another, but in the end, all that work is just to gloss-over the fact that they dont dare say "no".




odd but true....

[alanmolstad]

in the link they say a lot of things...but the answer of "no"is not among the things these Mormons will say to this question of "did god sin?

[alanmolstad]

what you get from the link's statements of the Mormons also is this general "unsure-ness" about their very basic concept of their god that these Mormons have.

They seem to be all attempting to put the best spin on the underlying problem in that none of them will take a stand and say that God is sinless and has never sinned, regardless of other Mormon teachings about their god's evolution....

In fact,I believe Im seeing a bit of fear also in control.

That the Mormons dont want to risk being criticized by other Mormons if caught saying "God is and always was sinless and pure".

Clearly an eternally sinless god is not found in the Mormon teachings>
if it was then you would see it come out in the views of Mormons,
But you dont....


Rather what we see is a wish-washy kind of faith in their god, due to the fact that they are not all that sure if their god sinned or not....?????!

[MickeyS]

in the link they say a lot of things...but the answer of "no"is not among the things these Mormons will say to this question of "did god sin?

Hmmmmmm....do you think it's a possibility that .... Gasp .... The maker of the video OMITTED anything he didn't want in the video? Like perhaps the conversations held before or after the questions...or any people answering NO to the question? Yes, people are making SPECULATIONS, people do that. Can you please tell me where ANYONE has ever claimed Mormons were PERFECT? :)

But please Alan....clear up some of the contradictions in YOUR faith ... Oh yeah... I forgot... You don't have to answer any questions lol

[alanmolstad]

Hmmmmmm....do you think it's a possibility that .... Gasp .... The maker of the video OMITTED anything he didn't want in the video? l
Im addressing the link I found in a google search..

perhaps you missed that?

[alanmolstad]

this link is to the first hit I got when doing a little search this mornin on the question of the "sinning Mormon god"

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58202-did-god-ever-sin/



one more time for people that did not catch it the first go around...

[alanmolstad]

what you see in the links statements by the many Mormons, is that they just cant bring themselves to say "no" to the question.....

[MickeyS]

Hey Alan

How is God three people but one in substance, when the bible clearly states three individuals?
How can we be made in God's image as the bible states when God has no image?
How can you believe in pre-destination without a pre-existence?
How can you believe works are not necessary when the bible REPEATEDLY stated to FOLLOW and OBEY the commandments and that we are judged according to our DEEDS?
How (and I love this one) can we be born sinners....but don't BECOME sinners until after we grow up (because according to you all children who die are automatically "saved"...so we were ALL "saved" until we grew up) and how does that fit into your OSAS beliefs??? If we die as children and are saved...and once saved always saved....aren't we ALL SAVED??

And finally....how did people before Christ came to earth become children of God through the atonement of Jesus Christ if Christ hadn't came yet .... AND WHERE IS ALL OF THAT IN THE BIBLE (please see my previous post of questions you never answered)

[MickeyS]

I ask, knowing you (Alan) will never answer...

[Erundur]

as the video shows.....

mormons have some strange / differing ideas about their sinning god....
We don't have a sinning god. That is an anti-Mormon lie.

[alanmolstad]

Hey Alan

How is God three people...

I use the term "persons"
God is found in the bible as being in 3 persons within the One God.


This I have to try to keep seprate fromthe idea of the common understanding of "people"
Fof the term "people" is very connected to the idea of "human".
I want to make sure that when we talk about God, we use terms that try to make very clear what we are talking about.
I use the term "persons" to show that they are "personalities"to themselves, they are separate...they are unique.they are ableto interact with each other in a very real way, and not just in some type of "theory"

[alanmolstad]

.... but one in substance,

The "substance" is taken from I guess the creed?

If you look that up on line - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****ousian you see that this is a complex term and has changed in what it means over the years to the point that even when we try to use the term now we have to **** an hr or two defining it to death...LOL

What I teach is that Jesus is 100% God Almighty and 100% human.
Two natures within the same person.

[alanmolstad]

the bible clearly states three individuals?

Yes, the bible clearly teaches us that the father is a person, the son is a person, and the Holy Spirit is a person.(as defined above)
all 3 are called "God"yet there is only "One God"

so all3 persons are the one God

[alanmolstad]

How can we be made in God's image as the bible states when God has no image?

Im Bible school we talking about how man was made in the image of God and what that means.
The understanding I came to is that man is a moral creature, we have a spirit.
This is why when we die our dead body goes into the ground, for the body is from the earth, and our spirit goes to the Lord who gave it.
This also means that when I die, and you goto my grave and watch them lower my body into the earth, that all you see being lowered down is NOT made in the image of God.

[alanmolstad]

How can you believe in pre-destination without a pre-existence?


Back in school I was in a writing cl***, and the instructor challenged the cl*** to write a short story in the span of one hour.
I took pen in my hand,and considered the blank paper before me.

I came up with an idea.
I decided to write a story about hero that had special powers and who was able to stand his ground in a war and win it.

So before I had put one word down in actual black and white, I had already predetermined how the story would go,what things would happen, what the hero name was, everything that would happen in the story.

But the story itself did not actually happen until I wrote it out.
I had "predetermined" the story before I began telling it...but the story itself took time to write.


Now from time to time during that hour my teacher stopped by my desk and looked over my shoulder to read what I had written so far.
Now from the instructor's point of view, my story was all new and was just being told for the first time.

My story had no "preexistence"...my story came forth for the first time on the paper as I wrote it.

So it was totally brand new.

But as the author I had a plan in my mind before I put the pen to the paper.

I had totally worked out what I was going to do with the story,and nothing was left in doubt.

[alanmolstad]

How can you believe works are not necessary when the bible REPEATEDLY stated to FOLLOW and OBEY the commandments and that we are judged according to our DEEDS?


This question is in the Bible -

"Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Go read the answer that Jesus gave...

[MickeyS]

one more time for people that did not catch it the first go around...

I guess I'll go ahead and take a page out of Christians playbook and say I don't know if these people are who they say they are and I don't go link hopping :) Its still speculation, I don't really care how many people say it. It is...not...doctrine.

[alanmolstad]

How (and I love this one) can we be born sinners....but don't BECOME sinners until after we grow up (because according to you all children who die are automatically "saved"...so we were ALL "saved" until we grew up) and how does that fit into your OSAS beliefs??? If we die as children and are saved...and once saved always saved....aren't we ALL SAVED??


this is a long question, that has a bunch of breaks in it that toss the idea of the question off the rails...
I will try to shorten it up...


I think you are asking about the souls of children that die?



if this is what you want to know about we have very little in the Bible to pick from to get a answer with,but what we did see in the life of King David is that he lost a small child, and later said that one day he would go to be with it again.

From this small quotation in the Bible we can support the idea that children that die go to be with the Lord.

What we also find in the writings of Paul is that he talked about himself being "alive" before the law came...but once the law came he died in sins.
I take this to be Paul talking about himself as a child and at that time not being under the law, and so he was not under condemnation of the law.
But when he grew older and then came under the law, he failed to keep the law and died.

We can take this to also mean that had he died as a child he would have went to the lord too.

So in both the words of Paul and David we see this idea come out that a child that died goes to be with the Lord.

[alanmolstad]

And finally....how did people before Christ came to earth become children of God through the atonement of Jesus Christ if Christ hadn't came yet?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

[MickeyS]

Btw....THANK YOU...for answering my questions :)

[alanmolstad]

Btw....THANK YOU...for answering my questions :)

I have the free time today....most of the time this is not so.

Thus when I saw you had asked a few basic questions about what I believe I "predetermined" to answer them today..

But the answers did not write themselves,and this website and my computer do not seem to get along well all the time, so a few answers were lost along the way.

But most of what i wanted to say got posted...

"close-enough" anyway...

[alanmolstad]

Btw....THANK YOU...for answering my questions :)

I have the free time today....most of the time this is not so.

Thus when I saw you had asked a few basic questions about what I believe I "predetermined" to answer them today..

But the answers did not write themselves,and this website and my computer do not seem to get along well all the time, so a few answers were lost along the way.

But most of what i wanted to say got posted...

"close-enough" anyway...

[MickeyS]

this is a long question, that has a bunch of breaks in it that toss the idea of the question off the rails...
I will try to shorten it up...


I think you are asking about the souls of children that die?



if this is what you want to know about we have very little in the Bible to pick from to get a answer with,but what we did see in the life of King David is that he lost a small child, and later said that one day he would go to be with it again.

From this small quotation in the Bible we can support the idea that children that die go to be with the Lord.

What we also find in the writings of Paul is that he talked about himself being "alive" before the law came...but once the law came he died in sins.
I take this to be Paul talking about himself as a child and at that time not being under the law, and so he was not under condemnation of the law.
But when he grew older and then came under the law, he failed to keep the law and died.

We can take this to also mean that had he died as a child he would have went to the lord too.

So in both the words of Paul and David we see this idea come out that a child that died goes to be with the Lord.

Right....so that means we are all saved as children...everyone. How does that fit into the OSAS?

[MickeyS]

this is a long question, that has a bunch of breaks in it that toss the idea of the question off the rails...
I will try to shorten it up...


I think you are asking about the souls of children that die?



if this is what you want to know about we have very little in the Bible to pick from to get a answer with,but what we did see in the life of King David is that he lost a small child, and later said that one day he would go to be with it again.

From this small quotation in the Bible we can support the idea that children that die go to be with the Lord.

What we also find in the writings of Paul is that he talked about himself being "alive" before the law came...but once the law came he died in sins.
I take this to be Paul talking about himself as a child and at that time not being under the law, and so he was not under condemnation of the law.
But when he grew older and then came under the law, he failed to keep the law and died.

We can take this to also mean that had he died as a child he would have went to the lord too.

So in both the words of Paul and David we see this idea come out that a child that died goes to be with the Lord.

And how are we "born in sin" if children are saved?

[MickeyS]

Im Bible school we talking about how man was made in the image of God and what that means.
The understanding I came to is that man is a moral creature, we have a spirit.
This is why when we die our dead body goes into the ground, for the body is from the earth, and our spirit goes to the Lord who gave it.
This also means that when I die, and you goto my grave and watch them lower my body into the earth, that all they you see being lowered down is NOT made in the image of God.




So the body is not important then? Where do we find this I'm the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

Right....so that means we are all saved as children...everyone. How does that fit into the OSAS?
What Paul was talking about with his teachings that before the law came he was alive.
he does not say he was sinless.
He does not say he was "Saved"
But rather the idea we are talking about is found in the verse Acts 17:30

Walter Martin used to talk about how within the plan God has for the universe there is a harmony between what God has foreknowledge and predetermined, and what God knows man is capable of responding to.

Thats the key to understanding this for us today.
It;s like the Thief on the cross.
he had no good works to list, but yet found salvation via he statement of faith in our Lord.
He should be criticized for the life he lived,(he was a convicted thief after all and does not deny his past), but yet also we rejoice in that he was saved when he responded to the Lord in the way he was capable of.

He turned to the "light" he was given.

That is what all men must do.

Thats why questions about keeping the law are just so silly, for they are a side issue.
The Lord was asked directly what "works" should people do to do the works required, and the answer jesus gave was that there is only one "work" that is needed!

and that so-called "work" is to have faith and believe in the one God sent!!!!!!



I remember studying this in Bible school, and our teacher pointed out that in the GREEK it reads "Thee work" as in "the lone, the only," work God required.

But we must remember we are not saved by "Faith Alone" but rather we are saved by "GRACE though Faith"
Thus we are saved by Grace alone, and the path Grace takes is though faith...

Thus to return to the question you raise, we should not think that the soul of a child that has died is "saved" for the word "saved" has come to mean the act of "responding" to the light God has given, rather a better way to look at the question of the fate of the lost child is to understand as we do in ACTS 17, that God does "overlook" the problems we had as kids because he also has complete harmony with the idea that he understands what we are capable of responding to at each stage in our lives.





now as for the topic of OSAS?
I have written a lot on that topic over the years here.

The basic idea I teach is that just as my salvation was a gift, so to is the maintaining of my salvation.

I did not earn my salvation
I do not perform works each day in the effort to maintain my salvation.

[alanmolstad]

So the body is not important then? Where do we find this I'm the Bible?

You mean ashes to ashes, dust to dust?

[alanmolstad]

And how are we "born in sin" if children are saved?

Im not sure we have defined "Born in sin" yet?

Be that as it may, I do believe that we should not consider dead children as being "saved" in the same way i think of myself now as "saved" for I use the term "saved" now with the context of having "Responded" to the calling I got from God.

But I also believe that had I died as a child that god would have overlooked my sins, (and they were many im sure) because he also has harmony with the idea that he knows what I was capable of responding to as I grew into a man.

[alanmolstad]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

[MickeyS]

I use the term "persons"
God is found in the bible as being in 3 persons within the One God.


This I have to try to keep seprate fromthe idea of the common understanding of "people"
Fof the term "people" is very connected to the idea of "human".
I want to make sure that when we talk about God, we use terms that try to make very clear what we are talking about.
I use the term "persons" to show that they are "personalities"to themselves, they are separate...they are unique.they are ableto interact with each other in a very real way, and not just in some type of "theory"

But Christ has a very HUMAN body..and He looks like His Father..so...

[alanmolstad]

But Christ has a very HUMAN body..and He looks like His Father..so...


Christ is said to be the image of the invisible God...

He is both fully God, and fully man.

Just as much man as I am,,,just as much God as the father is...

So Christ has two totally different natures.

[MickeyS]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

Unfortunately I do not have lots of time today, I'm going out of town, I'm reading what I can. :(
Why not ask questions in open forum? We are asked plenty of questions

[alanmolstad]

But Christ has a very HUMAN body..and He looks like His Father..so...


Christ is said to be the image of the invisible God...

He is both fully God, and fully man.

Just as much man as I am,,,just as much God as the father is...

So Christ has two totally different natures.

[MickeyS]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?


You mean ashes to ashes, dust to dust?

So if the body isn't important....why will we be resurrected?

[alanmolstad]

Why not ask questions in open forum? We are asked plenty of questions

yes, but I have seen over the years that some guests to this forum find that they have a question about a matter or want more information, yet dont want to have it discussed in the open forum...

So to respect that, I have always answered questions in Private message form so as to get answers to people without making them ask them in the open...

[MickeyS]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?


Im not sure we have defined "Born in sin" yet?

Be that as it may, I do believe that we should not consider dead children as being "saved" in the same way i think of myself now as "saved" for I use the term "saved" now with the context of having "Responded" to the calling I got from God.

But I also believe that had I died as a child that god would have overlooked my sins, (and they were many im sure) because he also has harmony with the idea that he knows what I was capable of responding to as I grew into a man.

I still never got biblical reference to the calling from God

[alanmolstad]

Why not ask questions in open forum? We are asked plenty of questions

yes, but I have seen over the years that some guests to this forum find that they have a question about a matter or want more information, yet dont want to have it discussed in the open forum...

So to respect that, I have always answered questions in Private message form so as to get answers to people without making them ask them in the open...

[alanmolstad]

forum seems to lock-up on me a lot...will try to keep going

[alanmolstad]

I still never got biblical reference to the calling from God

http://www.whatdidjesussay.com/follow-me/

[MickeyS]

Why must I ask MY questions privately? I am only asking questions about things that I have been addressed with. Why on earth would I answer your questions in open forum to be told I'm simply "wrong" and not be able to ask anyone why they're "right"? I'm just asking bible & verse to back the things I'm "wrong" about. And while you're answering questions, (which I very much appreciate) I'm still not getting that.

I only ask...to be treated the same..as everyone else..it's not a difficult concept, I'm not trying to be rude, it just seems like every time I try to get somewhere, I get shot down or chastised lol.

Never mind...I'll address these privately when I get where I'm going :)

[alanmolstad]

forum seems to lock-up on me a lot...will try to keep going

[alanmolstad]

Why must I ask MY questions privately?


'must"?????



slow down son, I think you have slightly misunderstood a few things...LOL


No one is "must-ing' anyone here... :)

I just offering to you or anyone else that prefers a private answer that I do that out of respect for people's privacy.

[MickeyS]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?


http://www.whatdidjesussay.com/follow-me/

That gives no bible verses about a "calling from God" only verses in which people were actually addressed in person by Christ. Those would be they who would be "without excuse"

[alanmolstad]

That gives no bible verses about a "calling from God" only verses in which people were actually addressed in person by Christ. Those would be they who would be "without excuse"pick up your cross, and "follow me"

[alanmolstad]

the forum and my computer are at odds....

Im going to try to reboot the computer to see if that helps?

[alanmolstad]

this same calling to "Follow me" goes out to all...

This is why he talked about picking up our cross and following him...Jesus was talking to all men...not just the two thieves who actually did physically pick up a cross and follow Jesus one day...but to all men everywhere and though all time...

[alanmolstad]

this same calling to "Follow me" goes out to all...

This is why he talked about picking up our cross and following him...Jesus was talking to all men...not just the two thieves who actually did physically pick up a cross and follow Jesus one day...but to all men everywhere and though all time...



this "calling" to draw close to God and follw him goes out to us all.
it does not matter that you live far away from a church, the "light" that is christ is still there with you, and it will lead you to greater light of Him...

[MickeyS]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?


'must"?????



slow down son, I think you have slightly misunderstood a few things...LOL


No one is "must-ing' anyone here... :)

I just offering to you or anyone else that prefers a private answer that I do that out of respect for people's privacy.

Oh hahahaha...sorry...hey, I never said I wasn't EVER a drama queen XD

[alanmolstad]

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

[alanmolstad]

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?
we are drawing close to the ending of my official "free time" and so I would hope we can get a few questions addressed here before I have to go and return to the "rat race" and become the slave to 'the man"and earn a living...

so PLEASE, if you have any more questions?....now would be a good time to ask them!

[MickeyS]

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

Sure, probably on the flight tomorrow morning when I have some extra time, thanks :)

[MickeyS]

we are drawing close to the ending of my official "free time" and so I would hope we can get a few questions addressed here before I have to go and return to the "rat race" and become the slave to 'the man"and earn a living...

so PLEASE, if you have any more questions?....now would be a good time to ask them!

Yeah, pity this just wasn't my day...I'm full in the rat race as we speak, I'll have to catch you again at a later time. I have some things to think about now, so thank you

[alanmolstad]

take care,
remember to tip your server.....

[MickeyS]

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

My point to bringing up the other topics was that there are always going to be things that can be "if"ed and "then"ed about with humans...it's our nature. (Plus I still REALLY wanted to know the answers lol) and there are Christians that give different interpretations of the Trinity alone. Mormons believe in a sinless GOD...it doesn't mean if you frame a question right about God once being a man that you're not going to start getting people to think in human terms and start explaining away lol. The truth is, we are not taught about the details of God's nature prior to the war "council" in Heaven. So those who attempt to do so, are clearly speculating. The problem with having so much information already, is we think we have to have it ALL, and we just don't. But we trust in Him and know He is a perfect sinless Being. I liked this article regarding this topic

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/god_sinner.htm

[alanmolstad]

I will tell you a story that this topic about how Mormons cant say "no" reminds me of...


the story is about a guest here on this forum.
She is an older Mormon lady, and she got into big debates with Jim and Billy all the time over the person of Joe Smith.

The lady would defend the Mormon church teachings about Smith only having one wife.
She would call any of the claims that Smith had many wives a "lie" and would say all kinds of things against such stories.

She was totally convinced that joe Smith had ony one wife and was very convinced that the attempt to tear down Smith's reputation was nothing more that Anti-Mormon lies.

I saw Jim ask her many times if she would remain a member of the Mormon church if it came out that Smith did get around, and had other women?
She was always attacking even the asking of that type of question as not being worth answering.


Then.....the landscape changed.

Then there was a new teaching that someone slipped to her in a Private Message and she did a little research on her own before she returned to the open forum.
But you can know that the topic did come up and a lot of Mormons got an ear-full from a lot of Christians on the matter of the many wives that the Mormon church was now saying Smith had collected.

But, the lady now had a new answer.
her answer was to point out that not every single marriage was always "sexual".
This answer helped her deal a bit with the matter of the younger girls that were clearly "underage" for such an older man to be haveing sex with, regardless of their position in a church leadership.

But then I started to see her being challenged to say for sure that Joe Smith , the founder of the Mormon church, never had sex with a 14 year old little girl?.....

The answer she came up with, or rather the "lack" of a answer that she tried to give sounds to me a LOT LIKE the same stuff we see in the videos and statements of Mormons who are asked if their god ever sinned?

They say a lot of words...

They try to connect one Mormon teaching to another...

They point out things they hope are connected to the topic...


But say "no"?....that they cant get themselves to do.

For they really are not sure they should take a firm stand on the question about the sinful past of their god, nor the sexual history of their founder in case the church comes out with yet another new teaching that puts their own statements defending their god and Joe at odds with the new teachings.


so it ends up like this....


ask a Mormon, "Did your god sin in his past?"...and they just shrug.

ask a Mormon "Was Joe Smith a pedophile?"...and they just shrug.









and thats a big difference in answers than you would get from me if you asked me about god or what I believe about Joe Smith.

I would say that "God cant sin!" he never was a man that evolved, the whole concept of the Mormon god is false.....case closed.

I would say, " "YES!, Joe Smith was a pedophile"....case closed.

[alanmolstad]

so the big thing I would point out to people reading this today is that we do receive the calling from God.

Each of us is presented with this same,"Follow me" that we read about in the Bible.

Each of us is challenged to pick up their own personal cross, and follow Christ.

[MickeyS]

I will tell you a story that this topic about how Mormons cant say "no" reminds me of...


the story is about a guest here on this forum.
She is an older Mormon lady, and she got into big debates with Jim and Billy all the time over the person of Joe Smith.

The lady would defend the Mormon church teachings about Smith only having one wife.
She would call any of the claims that Smith had many wives a "lie" and would say all kinds of things against such stories.

She was totally convinced that joe Smith had ony one wife and was very convinced that the attempt to tear down Smith's reputation was nothing more that Anti-Mormon lies.

I saw Jim ask her many times if she would remain a member of the Mormon church if it came out that Smith did get around, and had other women?
She was always attacking even the asking of that type of question as not being worth answering.


Then.....the landscape changed.

Then there was a new teaching that someone slipped to her in a Private Message and she did a little research on her own before she returned to the open forum.
But you can know that the topic did come up and a lot of Mormons got an ear-full from a lot of Christians on the matter of the many wives that the Mormon church was now saying Smith had collected.

But, the lady now had a new answer.
her answer was to point out that not every single marriage was always "sexual".
This answer helped her deal a bit with the matter of the younger girls that were clearly "underage" for such an older man to be haveing sex with, regardless of their position in a church leadership.

But then I started to see her being challenged to say for sure that Joe Smith , the founder of the Mormon church, never had sex with a 14 year old little girl?.....

The answer she came up with, or rather the "lack" of a answer that she tried to give sounds to me a LOT LIKE the same stuff we see in the videos and statements of Mormons who are asked if their god ever sinned?

They say a lot of words...

They try to connect one Mormon teaching to another...

They point out things they hope are connected to the topic...


But say "no"?....that they cant get themselves to do.

For they really are not sure they should take a firm stand on the question about the sinful past of their god, nor the sexual history of their founder in case the church comes out with yet another new teaching that puts their own statements defending their god and Joe at odds with the new teachings.


so it ends up like this....


ask a Mormon, "Did your god sin in his past?"...and they just shrug.

ask a Mormon "Was Joe Smith a pedophile?"...and they just shrug.




and thats a big difference in answers than you would get from me if you asked me about god or what I believe about Joe Smith.

I would say that "God cant sin!" he never was a man that evolved, the whole concept of the Mormon god is false.....case closed.

I would say, " "YES!, Joe Smith was a pedophile"....case closed.

I thought we were having a dialogue, I don't know why we have to slip back into deragatory statements when other terminology exists. :( Disappointing. I don't want to resort to that kind of talk again. Especially since you actually don't PERSONALLY know Joseph Smith...so you do NOT KNOW , for a definite fact, that he was a pedophile. I'm not making excuses, I have my own questions about church history that I don't fully understand, I truly do, but I know the remainder of my testimony is SO strong and has been confirmed to me, I have to have faith concerning the few things that aren't completely clear.

I feel in some ways I may be in a better position than a lot of born and raised LDS who don't research, or work on their personal testimony they just "go through the motions" (works without faith is dead as well, as you well know) I have fought for my testimony and came from an extremely dangerous and sinful life so I wasn't just floating through on someone else's beliefs. I had to use the atonement IN FULL, and if anything came from the terrible life I lived, it would be the great appreciation that I have gained for the infinite eternal sacrifice our Savior made for us. I'm not being full of myself, seriously...being the person I used to be is NOTHING to brag about. And I FULLY believe complacency and ignorance is a dangerous place for ANYONE to be in.

But let me ask you this, if that guy had been standing out there and simply asked "Has God sinned?" Do you REALLY believe ANYONE would have "shrugged" You would get a complete and resounding "No". But the question was repeatedly framed to include that "if God was once a man... it was setup to get the response it did. I don't think it's fair to just state "Mormons think God has sinned" or "Mormons don't know their God is sinless" because if you simply ask a Mormon "Is God sinless?" they would say "Yes" I wonder how many people were kicking themselves for their responses. As far as the forum....there are way too many people out there (of any faith) who simply think they know everything.

Asking a "Christian" a hard question on the spot that maybe they hadn't considered or hadn't studied...it would be interesting to see what their "on the spot" response would be.

Such as (I believe if I thought about it a little more I could come up with better examples, but hopefully you get the idea)

"Are children saved when they die?" as opposed to "If children are saved when they die, aren't we then all saved from birth?"

"Can you go to Heaven if you don't believe in Christ?" As opposed to "Do People go to hell if they don't get the chance to hear about Christ?"

Or just simply "Is The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit one Being?" as opposed to "How can God not have a body and Christ does if they are one Being?"

asked on the spot may elicit the same sort of responses...or maybe not...I'm not all too familiar with what is common knowledge in your faith and what is not specifically taught to the average "Christian"...but there would be topics that could be asked that would confound a lot of people I would wager...topics that perhaps in MY faith would be obvious because of the things WE believe. And asked a certain way, these topics may elicit a response that would completely seem to contradict what that person believes.

I make no excuses for members who don't do their research before spouting or speculating....but humans err....it's what we do. Pride pride pride. And quite honestly, and no offense...but most Mormons with a REAL good bead on things and a more complete knowledge of the Gospel aren't wasting their time floating through forums, like I am finding I have the tendency to do lol. They are focusing on better things and probably don't think anything they would have to say here would matter anyway, and they would be right lol. I battle with my own demons still...and pride is the worst ;)

[alanmolstad]

I thought we were having a dialogue, I don't know why we have to slip back into deragatory statements when other terminology exists. :( Disappointing. I don't want to resort to that kind of talk again. Especially since you actually don't PERSONALLY know Joseph Smith...so you do NOT KNOW , for a definite fact, that he was a pedophile.
>>>>>>

I dont know him at all, not personally.
I would not recognize him if I saw him...
I would not know his voice if I heard it.

So its very VERY true that in a very real way I dont know much about the man personally.

all I know is what im told and what i read about him,,,both good and ill.

But...what tells me a lot more about him is when I ask a Mormon who is really up to date on all the latest teachings of the curch, and who really does not have to go look anything up later,but just knows cuz they are up to speed on everything concerning what the church teaches about Smith's sexual history....

and when I ask them..."So Smith had no sex with a little 14 year old girl ?...when he was married to his wife, yes or no?".....






the answer I get tends to remove all doubt in my mind about the pedophile charge.

[alanmolstad]

I feel in some ways I may be in a better position than a lot of born and raised LDS who don't research, or work on their personal testimony they just "go through the motions" (works without faith is dead as well, as you well know) I have fought for my testimony and came from an extremely dangerous and sinful life so I wasn't just floating through on someone else's beliefs. I had to use the atonement IN FULL, and if anything came from the terrible life I lived, it would be the great appreciation that I have gained for the infinite eternal sacrifice our Savior made for us. I'm not being full of myself, seriously...being the person I used to be is NOTHING to brag about. And I FULLY believe complacency and ignorance is a dangerous place for ANYONE to be in.




and....suddenly I read words that cause me to pause....

[alanmolstad]

Most of the time, I read posts on this forum that fire back and forth and I just think to myself..."it does not concern me"


Oh I see people getting all bent out of shape at each other,,,the whole he said/she said ****, that goes on and on and never ends because no one wants it to end...

then...once in a while I read stuff that is a cut above the rest....

a long-long time ago I had a Mormon friend on this site that actually wrote to 'me" as if I was a person, and not just something that represented an idea he had sworn to debate when approached.

His name was "Fig"
He was a good guy....talked to me as a person,,,spoke with restraint and respect...laughed at my jokes..even the ones with him as the **** of the joke.


I would have to say that the post I just read from the hand of Micky might well approach the quality that was the hallmark of Fig's posts in honesty and openness to the Lord's plan for his life....

while we still may disagree...I see now we might be pointed in the same direction while we argue about where we want to walk...

[MickeyS]

Most of the time, I read posts on this forum that fire back and forth and I just think to myself..."it does not concern me"


Oh I see people getting all bent out of shape at each other,,,the whole he said/she said ****, that goes on and on and never ends because no one wants it to end...

then...once in a while I read stuff that is a cut above the rest....

a long-long time ago I had a Mormon friend on this site that actually wrote to 'me" as if I was a person, and not just something that represented an idea he had sworn to debate when approached.

His name was "Fig"
He was a good guy....talked to me as a person,,,spoke with restraint and respect...laughed at my jokes..even the ones with him as the **** of the joke.


I would have to say that the post I just read from the hand of Micky might well approach the quality that was the hallmark of Fig's posts in honesty and openness to the Lord's plan for his life....

while we still may disagree...I see now we might be pointed in the same direction while we argue about where we want to walk...

Awww...Alan...thank you. That seriously means a lot :) I'll have to say that made my day. Once you get to know me, I'm really not the pushy chick I seem to be (well, not all the time anyway, I guess you'd have to ask my husband...he'd probably tell you different lol) but I will definitely calm down a lot when I don't feel like I need to be in attack dog position haha. I appreciate you hearing me as a person, again, thank you.

[alanmolstad]

got any issues with any part of what I have written on any topic and/or want me to deal with something you think I may have missed?...pose your question, for I have lots o free time today..

[alanmolstad]

why is it that during the work week everyone is posting here, and I just dont have even the free time to read a few comments, YET come the weekend and my free time, not a soul posts here squat?????

[theway]

LOL.... This is that old Aaron attempt to make a name for himself, (via his groupy Russ and now you) by trying to put the final nail in the Mormon coffin. But when he tried it on other AntiMormon forums, it only backfired on him when I easily debunked him by pointed out the real truth of the matter to him. In fact, it was such an embarr***ment for modern Christianity that his threads on this topic on the other forums were deleted by the Mods as it was deemed to be causing division amongst Christians. Even the worst AntiMormons were forced to take down Aaron's link to his website.

First I asked Aaron what his criteria was for determining that this was a majority belief among Mormons? He just told me to watch the video... However when I asked whether he edited out all those that said no! He said that he did not edit out all of them but included a few (so that it appeared that it was an honest survey), However, when I found out that he left in everyone who agreed with his falsehood, but took out most of those that did not... his justification for continuing to claim that this was a majority Mormon belief that God sinned, was that if they did not immediately say No! But had to think about it for a second, he then counted that as a Yes.
When I then asked whether that was fair? He said yes, because a Christian would answer No! without hesitation.
So I pointed out to him a recent survey by the Barna Group that showed that only 31% of Christians answered that they "Strongly Agreed" that Jesus [i.e. God] did in fact did not sin while he was on the earth. I also pointed out by that by that same 2001 survey, Mormons were the one of the most likely to believe that Jesus did not sin at 70%. (Today Mormons are number one with the belief that Jesus was sinless)
When I asked why he wasn't trying to help correct the heretical beliefs by his fellow "Christians" instead of worrying about Mormons who don't have the problem, his answer was that that was not his calling???
Yet, when I questioned that if half the people he questioned said that they had never even considered the idea until HE put it into their heads, and by then asking what kind of sins God MAY of committed, that maybe he was only adding to the problem, and not helping anyone....
That's when his threads were taken down and I was banned from the site for "interfering with the ministry" and "causing divisions among Christians" that is also the time that I could no longer get Aaron to debate me anymore.... Russ also now ignores me.

Seems to me, one would need to remove the beam from their own eye before worrying about the mote of another....

[MickeyS]

Back in school I was in a writing cl***, and the instructor challenged the cl*** to write a short story in the span of one hour.
I took pen in my hand,and considered the blank paper before me.

I came up with an idea.
I decided to write a story about hero that had special powers and who was able to stand his ground in a war and win it.

So before I had put one word down in actual black and white, I had already predetermined how the story would go,what things would happen, what the hero name was, everything that would happen in the story.

But the story itself did not actually happen until I wrote it out.
I had "predetermined" the story before I began telling it...but the story itself took time to write.


Now from time to time during that hour my teacher stopped by my desk and looked over my shoulder to read what I had written so far.
Now from the instructor's point of view, my story was all new and was just being told for the first time.

My story had no "preexistence"...my story came forth for the first time on the paper as I wrote it.

So it was totally brand new.

But as the author I had a plan in my mind before I put the pen to the paper.

I had totally worked out what I was going to do with the story,and nothing was left in doubt.

How does that equate to the pre-destination of an individual? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your definition of pre-destination is?

[MickeyS]

Thus when I saw you had asked a few basic questions about what I believe I "predetermined" to answer them today....

Very funny Lol :D

[alanmolstad]

How does that equate to the pre-destination of an individual? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your definition of pre-destination is?well...whatever the dictionary says i would guess?



The word"destination would be the place you end up at.,,,in other words yiur final fate.


The word "pre" is telling us that its determined before hand.

So I would understand it to mean all together that my ending was determined from the beginning,and nothing was left in doubt by the Lord.

This agrees with my example of writing a story and before I picked up my pen and put to paper the first word I had already decided beforehand how the story would end.

So in a very real way you can decide how things will go before you start out them.
There is no "preexistence", rather there is full knowledge and full understanding of how you want something to go from the beginning.
The story is not actually exist until written and until words appear on the paper and that takes time to do, but the story has a "plan" that you as the writer will use to create the story.