The Cave of the Apocalypse * On The Island of Patmos in Greece * Book of Revelation

[jude1:3]

Exclusive video from the island of Patmos.
Watch the cave where St John Evangelist had his visions of the Apocalypse and where the deacon Prohoros wrote them down in the New Testament book of Revelation.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSqLBy5fw-A

[jude1:3]

Another Video:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfX1m53o1AY

[jude1:3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTaEwHdCZVg

[MichaellS]

.
I should feel like asking questions over these which are super interesting and in a strange way seem like home. But, I prefer to mix it with faith on what the Apostle would have preferred.

Not that he would have preferred it to be all that different, the way they (we) celebrate the man and his humble surroundings, but more so that God provided him a place and we remember that provision and God choosing him to do a work by the “Spirit” (Rev 1:10).

You know what would complement this whole post, would be a timetable on the p***ages of the succession of information, I suppose through the hands layman and clergy.

Nice post.

Mike.

[jude1:3]

.
I should feel like asking questions over these which are super interesting and in a strange way seem like home. But, I prefer to mix it with faith on what the Apostle would have preferred.

Not that he would have preferred it to be all that different, the way they (we) celebrate the man and his humble surroundings, but more so that God provided him a place and we remember that provision and God choosing him to do a work by the “Spirit” (Rev 1:10).

You know what would complement this whole post, would be a timetable on the p***ages of the succession of information, I suppose through the hands layman and clergy.

Nice post.

Mike.





From this site : http://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-John-the-Apostle



Saint John the Apostle, also called Saint John the Evangelist or Saint John the Divine (flourished 1st century ce) in Christian tradition, the author of three letters, the Fourth Gospel, and the Revelation to John in the New Testament. He played a leading role in the early church at Jerusalem.

John was the son of Zebedee, a Galilean fisherman, and Salome. John and his brother James were among the first disciples called by Jesus. In the Gospel According to Mark he is always mentioned after James and was no doubt the younger brother. His mother was among those women who ministered to the circle of disciples. James and John were called by Jesus “Boanerges,” or “sons of thunder,” perhaps because of some character trait such as the zeal exemplified in Mark 9:38 and Luke 9:54, when John and James wanted to call down fire from heaven to punish the Samaritan towns that did not accept Jesus. John and his brother, together with Simon Peter, formed an inner nucleus of intimate disciples. In the Fourth Gospel, ascribed by early tradition to John, the sons of Zebedee are mentioned only once, as being at the shores of the Sea of Tiberias when the risen Lord appeared; whether the “disciple whom Jesus loved” (who is never named) mentioned in this Gospel is to be identified with John (also not named) is not clear from the text.

John the Evangelist, Saint [Credit: Photograph by Katie Chao. The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York City, The Cloisters Collection, 1977 (1977.421)]John’s authoritative position in the church after the Resurrection is shown by his visit with Peter to Samaria to lay hands on the new converts there. It is to Peter, James (not the brother of John but “the brother of Jesus”), and John that Paul successfully submitted his Gospel for recognition. What position John held in the controversy concerning the admission of the Gentiles to the church is not known; the evidence is insufficient for a theory that the Johannine school was anti-Pauline—i.e., opposed to granting Gentiles membership in the church.

John’s subsequent history is obscure and p***es into the uncertain mists of legend. At the end of the 2nd century, Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, claims that John’s tomb is at Ephesus, identifies him with the beloved disciple, and adds that he “was a priest, wearing the sacerdotal plate, both martyr and teacher.” That John died in Ephesus is also stated by Irenaeus, bishop of Lyon c. 180 ce, who says John wrote his Gospel and letters at Ephesus and Revelation at Patmos. During the 3rd century two rival sites at Ephesus claimed the honour of being the apostle’s grave. One eventually achieved official recognition, becoming a shrine in the 4th century. In the 6th century the healing power of dust from John’s tomb was famous (it is mentioned by the Frankish historian Gregory of Tours); at this time also, the church of Ephesus claimed to possess the autograph of the Fourth Gospel.

Legend was also active in the West, being especially stimulated by the p***age in Mark 10:39, with its hints of John’s martyrdom. Tertullian, the 2nd-century North African theologian, reports that John was plunged into boiling oil from which he miraculously escaped unscathed. During the 7th century this scene was portrayed in the Lateran basilica and located in Rome by the Latin Gate; it is still annually commemorated on May 6. John’s feast day otherwise is December 27. This belief that John did not die is based on an early tradition. In the original form of the apocryphal Acts of John (second half of the 2nd century) the apostle dies, but in later traditions he is ***umed to have ascended to heaven like Enoch and Elijah. A popular tradition known to Augustine declared that the earth over his grave heaved as if the apostle were still breathing.

Revelation to John: John writing the book of Revelation [Credit: Städel Museum, Frankfurt am Main, Germany]The legends that contributed most to medieval iconography are mainly derived from the apocryphal Acts of John. These Acts are also the source of the notion that John became a disciple as a very young man. Iconographically, the young, beardless type is early (as in a 4th-century sarcophagus from Rome), and this type came to be preferred (though not exclusively) in the medieval West. In the Byzantine world the evangelist is portrayed as old, with long, white beard and hair, usually carrying his Gospel. His symbol as an evangelist is an eagle. Because of the inspired visions of the book of Revelation, the Byzantine churches en***led him “the Theologian”; the ***le appears in Byzantine m****cripts of Revelation but not in m****cripts of the Gospel.






*More info : http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_the_Apostle

[DrDavidT]

what real evidence do you have that John got his vision while he was in a cave and that he actually lived in a cave?

legends are not fact nor evidence.

[jude1:3]

legends are not fact nor evidence.



John specifically wrote about people who don't believe.

But the cowardly, Unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

[alanmolstad]

what real evidence do you have that John got his vision while he was in a cave and that he actually lived in a cave?

legends are not fact nor evidence.

Very true.

I have not seen any real proof that a cave was involved...

I know that john was old...very,very old....and so I would guess that a cave would not really be where you would expect the people around John and watching out for him would put him to make sure he was doing ok...

The only real clue I see is that the day the revelation started was said to be the "lord's Day....I take to to be talking about the day he would worship with others?...if that is so...then about the last place he would be is alone....in a cave.

[jude1:3]

Very true.

I have not seen any real proof that a cave was involved...

I know that john was old...very,very old....and so I would guess that a cave would not really be where you would expect the people around John and watching out for him would put him to make sure he was doing ok...

The only real clue I see is that the day the revelation started was said to be the "lord's Day....I take to to be talking about the day he would worship with others?...if that is so...then about the last place he would be is alone....in a cave.




You seem to have more in common and be more in agreement with unbelievers than you do with True Christians.

[alanmolstad]

You seem to have more in common and be more in agreement with unbelievers than you do with True Christians.
If you have anything else to add to this topic ? or ask a question about stuff?...., feel free....

But I really don't care a rip about that type of personal ****.

[jude1:3]

If you have anything else to add to this topic ? or ask a question about stuff?...., feel free....

But I really don't care a rip about that type of personal ****.




I'm saying this because you are teaming up with and agreeing with DrDavidT who has done nothing but criticize and disagree with every thread I've posted.

Here I am trying to help and encourage the faith of believers to show them Biblical Archeology and Christian History and then DrDavidT comes along and wants to destroy their faith. Not only that, but then you chime in and are "Supposedly" on the Christians side, but you are agreeing with DrDavidT instead.

[alanmolstad]

I'm saying this because you are teaming up with and agreeing with DrDavidT.....

Im on a team now?
When did that happen?.. :)

Dr David simply pointed out that we don't have any real proof in the bible that John received his vision while in a cave....and David is right about that as far as i can see...


It's sorta like that story in the Bible of Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus....many people in the church ***ume that he fell off his horse...but that's not really in the Bible....


I think it's good that from time to time we point out what is and is not supported by the text.
I have no problem with people talking about a "legend"...I have no problem with people saying that there is a lot of other stories in the church that support the legend....I have no issues if you want to believe the same legend...

But it is always good for everyone to remember that it is a "legend and is not found in the text of the Bible>

Therefore all the Christians in our Christian church have every right to disagree with the legend and to reject it if they wish...and should be allowed to without calling into questiontheir faith.

[DrDavidT]

John specifically wrote about people who don't believe.

But the cowardly, Unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

you are fast to falsely accuse people of not believing. You need to watch yourself.


You seem to have more in common and be more in agreement with unbelievers than you do with True Christians.

again you are not qualified to say such things.


I have not seen any real proof that a cave was involved...



no cave was invivled that anyone knows about. it is a myth and a legend to generate tourism.

[DrDavidT]

I'm saying this because you are teaming up with and agreeing with DrDavidT who has done nothing but criticize and disagree with every thread I've posted.


That is because you do not know what you are talking about.


Here I am trying to help and encourage the faith of believers to show them Biblical Archeology and Christian History and then DrDavidT comes along and wants to destroy their faith. Not only that, but then you chime in and are "Supposedly" on the Christians side, but you are agreeing with DrDavidT instead.


You are not encouraging them but misleading them but your ignorance and failure to double check the information you are claiming to be 'proof' of some biblical location.

You also have a problem with taking criticism or being shown that you are over-stepping the boundaries when it comes to biblical archaeology and God's rules.

[DrDavidT]

I have decided to report Jude for his slander, malicious attacks and personal attacks without any real evidence other than the fact I have shown him to be in error. Jude is misguided and does not know what he is talking about and needs to get under some credible instructor to guide him correctly in how to deal with others.

[disciple]

That is because you do not know what you are talking about.



You are not encouraging them but misleading them but your ignorance and failure to double check the information you are claiming to be 'proof' of some biblical location.

You also have a problem with taking criticism or being shown that you are over-stepping the boundaries when it comes to biblical archaeology and God's rules.

Hello DrDavidT,
Just wondering what your credentials are, since your above ***ertions show that you think you have some authority over what Jude 1:3 posts.

[DrDavidT]

my credentials are extensive but if you think his slander is called for I won't be revealing what they are

[alanmolstad]

this topic is dragging on....

perhaps someone might bring up a Bible concept....?
The OP is about the book of Rev....thats a rich area for conversation Im sure'....

[DrDavidT]

i have problems with this website for some reason. It does weird things when I try to post

[DrDavidT]

my credentials are extensive but if you think his slander is called for I won't be revealing what they are

People need to stop jumping on bandwagons just because someone claims to be a believer and is 'strengthening the faith' of others. You cannot be strengthening the faith of anyone if the person bringing the information a). does not know what they are talking about; b). refuses to listen to those who do.

Providing erroneous information, especially without diligent research that seeks the truth not a good feeling, is not strengthening the faith of anyone but setting them up for a fall and injury.

As for my credentials I generally do not provide them as I am not looking for attention or to take attention away from God. He provided me with a very extensive education which includes graduate degrees in archaeology, history and theology. Along with pastoring a church I have written 4 books one on archaeology and the unwary believer and two on a variety of subjects including Einstein's fatal error in his theory of relativity, Hubble's error in his expanding universe theory, Augustine's words to topics that the church faces each day.

Then I publish a Christian magazine along with operating two websites which deal with archaeology and other topics an dhow they relate to the church and the Christian life. I have had numerous articles published in 4 different countries whose subjects range in topics and issues. I have also sat through hundreds of hours of lectures done by archaeologists, biblical scholars and scientists both secular and christian.

Now if anyone wants to disagree with me, they better have real evidence supporting their argument instead of falsely accusing someone of being an unbeliever merely because the accused disagrees with the other person. Jude is failing the people he communicates to because he is not doing his christian duty correctly.

[alanmolstad]

i have problems with this website for some reason. It does weird things when I try to post

From personal experience, I always "copy" everything just before I try to post a comment onto this forum.
Sometimes its hard to remember to do that, but you get burned enough times and you start to get into the practice.

[DrDavidT]

From personal experience, I always "copy" everything just before I try to post a comment onto this forum.
Sometimes its hard to remember to do that, but you get burned enough times and you start to get into the practice.

It is not just that, I get error messages telling me to wait 30 seconds and I have 12 seconds left in that time frame yet I hadn't posted in 3 minutes o rmore when those occur; I get double posts, leave page messages and so on.

[alanmolstad]

It is not just that, I get error messages telling me to wait 30 seconds and I have 12 seconds left in that time frame yet I hadn't posted in 3 minutes o rmore when those occur; I get double posts, leave page messages and so on.

well.......that same thing happens to us all too.

It can be very frustrating to be sure.

you will get used to it...or not...

all I can say from experience isthat the way this website seems out to get you, is not personal...I know it may seem at times like you are being singled out to have your posts cleared for no reason, but that is just not so.

No one is watching you write or post stuff...no one is stopping anyone from posting like that here...
The only issues we all have in posting here have to deal with computer/server/website stuff that the owner of this forum is aware of...

Thats about all I know....

I have gotten used to this site not being 'user-friendly" as far as posting goes.

[DrDavidT]

From personal experience, I always "copy" everything just before I try to post a comment onto this forum.
Sometimes its hard to remember to do that, but you get burned enough times and you start to get into the practice.

It is not just that, I get error messages telling me to wait 30 seconds and I have 12 seconds left in that time frame yet I hadn't posted in 3 minutes o rmore when those occur; I get double posts, leave page messages and so on.

case in point, the 30 second message just happened to this post

[disciple]

my credentials are extensive but if you think his slander is called for I won't be revealing what they are

Hello DrDavidT,
Thanks for your reply. I guess the point is that this is a discussion forum, Jude can post whatever he feels is worth discussing and your disagreement with that content does not make him ignorant. Hey, Alan and I disagree all the time but there are no hard feelings. Being wrong doesn't make one ignorant but being unwilling to learn.

[DrDavidT]

Hello DrDavidT,
Thanks for your reply. I guess the point is that this is a discussion forum, Jude can post whatever he feels is worth discussing and your disagreement with that content does not make him ignorant. Hey, Alan and I disagree all the time but there are no hard feelings. Being wrong doesn't make one ignorant but being unwilling to learn.

The point is, if you continue to let him run amok, that tells me there are no rules here and no one is around to enforce them. That does not bode well for a discussion forum

[jude1:3]

Another video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voZ8zfcxu58

[alanmolstad]

The point is, if you continue to let him run amok, that tells me there are no rules here and no one is around to enforce them. That does not bode well for a discussion forum

I always tell guests that if you have a issue with another guest that you should hit the REPORT thingy, and then place the name of the person on your IGNORE LIST and end the problem forever...

You dont have to just hope someone does something...you can take action yourself.

[DrDavidT]

I always tell guests that if you have a issue with another guest that you should hit the REPORT thingy, and then place the name of the person on your IGNORE LIST and end the problem forever...

You dont have to just hope someone does something...you can take action yourself.

already did that

[jude1:3]

DrDavidt refuses to prove his credentials and answer basic questions about himself.

[DrDavidT]

since the cave has nothing to do with John it would be wise for believers to ignore it and stop making shrines to locations related to the bible. there is no biblical instruction to make shrines.

[jude1:3]

Prove that it's not the real cave.


The Church vs A Random Person on the Internet

If you tell me the name of your denomination I can then tell when "Your" church began and who started it.

[DrDavidT]

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,
2who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

9I, John, £both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
11saying

1After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”
2Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.

Does anyone see where a cave was involved at all?

Why would I want Jude to tell me when and who when I already know he answers to those questions?

[jude1:3]

You still can't prove that he wasn't in that cave.


The Church's Opinion vs A Random Person on the Internet's Opinion

[jude1:3]

Lord Jesus Christ in The Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit please lead us unto All Truth because You are Truth Amen.

[alanmolstad]

You still can't prove that he wasn't in that cave.


I cant prove he wasn't in my backyard...
I cant prove he wasn't on Mars,
I cant prove he wasn't dancing on the head of a pin too.

There is no limit to the things I cant prove about the guy....

But the truth is this:
Extra ordinary claims need extra ordinary proof

[DrDavidT]

the truth is whether john was in a cave or not is NOT germane to the Christian faith, biblical teaching or the truth. There is NO evidence that John was in a cave but that doesn't matter. John's exact location is not germane or vital to the christian faith nor any biblical doctrine or teaching, Getting caught up in a discussion on his exact location which is unprovable is a distraction to the faith not a help to it.

[jude1:3]

the truth is whether john was in a cave or not is NOT germane to the Christian faith, biblical teaching or the truth. There is NO evidence that John was in a cave but that doesn't matter. John's exact location is not germane or vital to the christian faith nor any biblical doctrine or teaching, Getting caught up in a discussion on his exact location which is unprovable is a distraction to the faith not a help to it.
I'll trust The Church instead of your opinion.

[DrDavidT]

so sad. Jude can't hear the truth when it is spoken

Venerating the cave is not a biblical act nor is there any biblical instruction to make earthly sites 'holy' God does that by putting his presence there. There is nothing biblical about that cave and Christians will not be affected if they ignore it. That cave like so many other 'holy' sites are not part of the faith, not vital to it and do nothing to support it.