Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

[alanmolstad]

Hopefully The Lord Jesus Christ will have mercy on you for promoting this heretical lie.
While I can clearly see that sitting in the back and heckling must be a lot of fun...
I do also believe that is some fun as well found in opening your Bible to genesis and seeing if what I have said is true...

[alanmolstad]

what does the Bible say in black and white was the first thing God created "In the beginning"?




I dont expect you to dare answer....I just wanted to point out where you first fail, and you first fail at genesis 1:1....

[alanmolstad]

Since we have not really seen any questions asked nor any countering Bible verses posted, I thought I would now take the next few pages of this topic on "theistic Evolution" and go over some of the common questions I have been asked over the years about Genesis and provide short little answers to each .

[alanmolstad]

What is the Biggest flaw found in the people that promote the Young Earth teachings and why cant they ever deal with the Scriptures?

The simple fact is, that the Bible does not say what they thought it said.

Its like the common error we see in society where they quote "And the lion shall lay down with the lamb"......its a nice enough thought, but it actually is not found in the bible.
People quote itall the time, they make use of it in their arguments, but its not based on the Bible....its just based on what people "think"the Bible says.

It's the same problem the Young Earth believers have they love to believe the Bible supports their ideas, but that also is why they don't dare open the Bible, because they are afraid to learn that the Bible does not teach what they have always wanted and taught it was teaching.

[alanmolstad]

According to the Young Earth Creationism teachings God created the "light" first before he created the sun, but what does the Bible say?


"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

[alanmolstad]

Does this word "heavens" have the meaning of all the stars like our own sun?

Yes, all the things that we can included in the great canopy of stars including our own sun, moon, and sister words, as well as all the other things in space, and even things we dont even have names for yet!, all this "stuff" is correctly identified under the single term used at Genesis 1:1 as "Heavens".

[alanmolstad]

The Bible teaches that God created the sun and stars first, and that is in total disagreement with the Young Earth teachings that say that the "light" was made first?


Yes, the YEC teachings are complete at odds with the text of the bible.

[alanmolstad]

Does the Bible teach that the Earth was created as a water-covered world?

No, in the Genesis story the Earth is described as being created as a dead and dry world that later was covered by the seas.

[alanmolstad]

Where is the Earth described as being created as a "dead and dry"world ?

In Genesis 2

[alanmolstad]

So things talked about at Genesis 2 can be talking about a time that is before things in Genesis 1 ?

Yes, Parts of Genesis 2 do talk to us about a time in early earth history that happen prior to the creation of the "waters" and "the deep" talked about in Genesis 1

[alanmolstad]

So things talked about in Gen 2 can have happened before things talked about in Gen 1?

Yes, the writer of the genesis story does like to do this, where he lists something a first time, and then later goes back and fills-in some details.

[alanmolstad]

Give me another example of the Writer of Genesis going back to fill-in left out parts of the story later?

In the creation of man he does this too.

[alanmolstad]

Explain that more...

At the start of the Genesis story we read about "the waters" that cover the earth as well as "the deep".

This tells us that we are dealing with a point in Earth's history where we have the earth already covered by water.
But the Writer on Genesis has not told us how this all happened yet.

Later in Genesis 2 the details are filled-in for us when we see that the Earth was actually created as a dead and dry world, and then we read about a mist coming forth from under the ground that forms the seas that cover all the dry lands.

This pattern is used again by the writer of Genesis when he simply states that on the 6th Day God created the humans, male and female.
Later in Genesis 2 we then see the same writer of genesis go back and fill-in the details of the creation of the man and later of the women.

So when we read things that are talked about in Genesis 2 we can have no trouble at all understanding that they actually could have happened earlier than many of the events talked about in Genesis 1, for that is the writing pattern found in the genesis story.

[alanmolstad]

According to Evolution, if we trace back life to the first early building blocks of pre-life, what we find is that they are made of this earth itself.
So this means that all life, including us humans, is actually a part of this earth that has come to life.
What does the bible teach?


The same thing.

[alanmolstad]

So Genesis and Evolution agree on the source for life?

Yes, there is complete agreement .

[alanmolstad]

But how can man be said to be made in the image of God if we are actually made out of the ground?

Man is made in the image of God, but we must remember that God is Spirit.
Therefore the flesh of man is from this earth, but the spirit of man is not from this earth at all.

[alanmolstad]

Why is the earth said to be in darkness if the sun was already created in the beginning?

Same reason I cant see the sun today even when its after 7:00 in the morning.....its too cloudy.

The sun was created in the beginning, but at *** 38 we learn that due to thick clouds the early seas that covered the earth at the timeof Genesis were in thick "darkness"

[alanmolstad]

So the idea taught by the Young Earth teachers that God created the "light" before he made the sun and stars, is an error?

Yes, its a lie based on poor scholarship and a lack of their not wanting to know what the bible really says.

[alanmolstad]

As these thick clouds thinned out over time, what would be observed?

You would see just what is talked about happening in the Genesis story.

First you would notice a difference between daylight and nighttime,as your position on the earth spin to and then away from the sun. (Night and day)

Then you would also notice that even at nighttime there would appear a dim, (lesser) light being actually the sun's reflection caused by the moon.

Later you would notice how the days get longer then shorter (the seasons due to the tilt of the earth going around the sun)

Lastly as the clouds totally cleared you would be able to make out even the dim lights of the stars. (see 4th day)

[alanmolstad]

So the stars are NOT made on the 4th day?

No, although it may say in some bible translations that the Lord "also made" the stars on the 4th day, if you check the verse in a translation like the King James that puts added words in brackets [ ] or in italic , you will learn that the words "also made" are just a later addition by an editor, and do not appear in the Hebrew.

[alanmolstad]

So what happens to the verse if you don't add the needless added words?

If you read the verse free of the imposed wording, all it is saying is that the "lesser light" will rule over the night and the stars.

and that is true because the lesser light does out shine the darkness of the night sky as well as the dimmer lights of the stars...

[alanmolstad]

Does the Bible teach that the "sun" and "moon"were made on the 4th day?

No, the words "sun" and "moon" do not appear in that verse at all.
Rather what is talked about that is now different on the 4th day is the "light" that is said now to have become "greater" and "lesser"

The terms "greater" and "lesser" are terms that talk about the AMOUNT of light seen on the earth...they are not the SOURCE of that light.
The Bible does not say on the 4th day that a source for the light was created....only the difference in the light brightness is being described.

[alanmolstad]

Another Genesis teaching that the YEC bunch like to push is the idea that fallen angles had sex women and produced giants, but is this a real teaching of the Bible?

No it's yet another error of the YEC teachers based on poor scholarship and not their not wanting to read the bible.

[alanmolstad]

what is that part of the Bible in Genesis 6 dealing with then?

Genesis 6 is simply building on the same ideas that the writer has already been talking about in Genesis 3, 4, and 5.

So when we come to the verses of concern in Genesis 6, we should understand them not as a separate idea that just got dumped into the story (The way the YEC teachers believe) rather we should see it in the full context of the story told to us so far.

[alanmolstad]

If Genesis 6 is not talking about angels and earth women hooking up, what is it talking about?

In Genesis 3 we read about the fall of man, and the start of the 2 different branches of the family tree of Adam.

In Genesis 4 we read about a darker side of the family tree of Adam, and how it degenerates over the generations.

In Genesis 5 we read about a more holy branch of Adam's family tree, where men are said to walk with God.

But in Genesis 6 we read about the results of when the two branches of the family tree intermarry.
The result of this is the total degeneration of the holy side of the family to the point where there simply is nothing much left of the entire human race that has not fallen into deepest types of sin.

This line of teaching is clearly connected to the laws governing how the Jews at the time this was written did intermarry with other tribes and other faiths.

[alanmolstad]

So nothing about Genesis 6 listing "The Sons of God, and the "Giants" have anything at all to do with angels?

Nope....when you read the whole account you will clearly see that genesis 6 is simply continuing the same story as started in Genesis 3 ,4,and 5.

Nothing here is about angel babies...LOL

[alanmolstad]

So nothing about Genesis 6 listing "The Sons of God, and the "Giants" have anything at all to do with angels?

Nope....when you read the whole account you will clearly see that genesis 6 is simply continuing the same story as started in Genesis 3 ,4,and 5.

Nothing here is about angel babies...LOL

[alanmolstad]

How can we be sure the "darkness" talked about at *** 38 is the very same "darkness" talked about at Genesis 1?

The introduction to that time in *** 38 is said to have happend when God laid the "foundations" ....this only happened once in history,and that is the very same time that is also talked about in Genesis.
So this does mean that the "darkness" of *** 38 is the very same "Darkness" of Genesis 1.

[alanmolstad]

Does not the order of Life as listed in Genesis disagree totally with the way Evolution has the order of the rise of Life?

You have to remember that when you are reading the bible and dealing with something the writer of Genesis is talking about happening in the water on Day 5 it does NOT mean that nothing at all was happening on the land at the same time.

All we read about going on at the 5th day is the things the writer choose to tell us about, not everything.

The writer has a style where he talks about the air, then the water, then the land, all in the context of a 7-day workweek.
My guess is this was just to help people remember the story better.

But the fact is, we can not ***ume for one moment that just because we are "told" something was happening in the sea that this means nothing at all was going on at the very same moment on the land...

All we can know for sure is what we read, and what we read is only what the writer wanted to tell us.....
So this naturally means that while we might be told one thing, there is no reason at all not to also keep in mind that lots of other things were also going on too at the same time!

Its just like the fact that we are "told" a few of the things that Jesus said while He walked the earth, but we are not told "everything" he said while with us.

What we are told, is true, but its not "all"

So what we are left with for sure, is not so much an order that we can believe is as much chronological as it is clearly an order in importance.
Starting with gr***...then on to trees, to fish and stuff in the sea,and then finally to land animals and ending with the creation of man.

Its clearly a ranking in importance.

[alanmolstad]

Doesn't the Hebrew word "yom" always mean just a 24 hour day?

no.

[alanmolstad]

Doesn't the Hebrew word "yom" always mean just a 24 hour day when used with a number like in Genesis?

no.

[alanmolstad]

Doesn't the Hebrew word "yom" always mean just a 24 hour day, when used with the phrase "evening and morning?"

no.

[alanmolstad]

what about the footprints of a man walking with a dinosaur's found in Texas?

The human footprints were faked.

[alanmolstad]

Did NASA find enough moon dust to account for a history of several million years?

yes, NASA found exactly the amount of dust on the moon to account for a history of millions if not billions of years.

[alanmolstad]

At genesis 1:2 "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[fn] on the face of the deep" what does the term "without form" mean?

It's talking about the same thing you would notice if you were on a dark foggy road, and you heard a large truck approaching you out of the fog.
You know the truck is real, you know it getting close to you, but as of yet due to the fog the truck is "without form"

You know its real and its there,,,but you cant really describe it in more detail yet

[alanmolstad]

At genesis 1:2 "The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[fn] on the face of the deep" what does the term"void" mean?

No people.
Its the same context as when you walk into a large hall filled with empty seats.
The room might be empty at that moment, but it is designed to be filled with people.
Its the same concept here with the word "void", where the world lacks people but is designed to be filled with people.

[alanmolstad]

Barring any questions, I will continue tomorrow to help the Bible student deal with many of the most common issues that come up in a Genesis Bible Study, by posting some short easy to understand answers.

[jude1:3]

This thread has turned into Alan's Personal Journal of Run on Sentences.

[alanmolstad]

This thread has turned into Alan's Personal Journal of Run on Sentences.

check post number #45
Im just doing what I said I would do if I found that none knew how to open their bibles up...

[jude1:3]

check post number #45
Im just doing what I said I would do if I found that none knew how to open their bibles up...



No one agrees with you on this topic Alan. You're a one man show on this particular topic.

[alanmolstad]

No one agrees with you on this topic Alan. You're a one man show on this particular topic.What is clear is that no one dares, "dis"agree with me.
Thats much is very clear.
From what I have seen I have yet to be much impressed with the ability of any believer in the YEC teachings to handle the Scriptures.


No one dares pick up their Bible and try to see if what Im saying is true.

Rather,what I see is the typical response I have seen before, namely that people attack the messenger when they cant stand against the message.
But that is to be expected in that the YEC are not based on the Bible.

On the other hand all that I am now teaching is based on the Bible.
If I say something is in the bible,I will give you chapter and verse to go find it.
I invite people to checkout the Text that I list to see if what iIm saying is truly found there?

When I teach that God made the "Heavens " first, I list the verse that proves this.

When I say that God made the earth as a dry/dead world that was later covered with water, I list the text to support this.

When I say that there is no ending to the 7th day unlike all the other 6 days, I prove this with the text.

When I teach that both humans and animals are from the same source and that this agrees with evolution, I point out this fact with the text of the Bible.

When I say I know why the earth was in "darkness"at the start of the Genesis story even though the sun was already created, I point to the verse that tells us this reason why.

When I point out that at no place in the Genesis story do we read of an anti-evolution argument, I go over the whole Genesis text, verse by verse to show this is true.


over the last few pages of this topic Ihave given short answers to many of the common questions people dealwith when talking about the Genesis -evolution topic,and I can support every answer I give with a verse in the Bible.
And that is why no believer in the YEC lie seems to want to challenge anything I say.
For they know they will lose,

it's finally brought home how out of gas the YEC argument is.



But as for me?...Im just getting started!

I got many, many more things I like to bring up that point out the real weakness in the YEC position,
I also want to dig a bit deeper into the whole approach to the story of Genesis, and how to read it from start to finish, and see how it does in fact, work hand-in-hand with evolution.

[MichaellS]

What is clear is that no one dares, "dis"agree with me.
Thats much is very clear.
From what I have seen I have yet to be much impressed with the ability of any believer in the YEC teachings to handle the Scriptures.


No one dares pick up their Bible and try to see if what Im saying is true.

Rather,what I see is the typical response I have seen before, namely that people attack the messenger when they cant stand against the message.
But that is to be expected in that the YEC are not based on the Bible.

On the other hand all that I am now teaching is based on the Bible.
If I say something is in the bible,I will give you chapter and verse to go find it.
I invite people to checkout the Text that I list to see if what iIm saying is truly found there?

When I teach that God made the "Heavens " first, I list the verse that proves this.

When I say that God made the earth as a dry/dead world that was later covered with water, I list the text to support this.

When I say that there is no ending to the 7th day unlike all the other 6 days, I prove this with the text.

When I teach that both humans and animals are from the same source and that this agrees with evolution, I point out this fact with the text of the Bible.

When I say I know why the earth was in "darkness"at the start of the Genesis story even though the sun was already created, I point to the verse that tells us this reason why.

When I point out that at no place in the Genesis story do we read of an anti-evolution argument, I go over the whole Genesis text, verse by verse to show this is true.


over the last few pages of this topic Ihave given short answers to many of the common questions people dealwith when talking about the Genesis -evolution topic,and I can support every answer I give with a verse in the Bible.
And that is why no believer in the YEC lie seems to want to challenge anything I say.
For they know they will lose,

it's finally brought home how out of gas the YEC argument is.



But as for me?...Im just getting started!

I got many, many more things I like to bring up that point out the real weakness in the YEC position,
I also want to dig a bit deeper into the whole approach to the story of Genesis, and how to read it from start to finish, and see how it does in fact, work hand-in-hand with evolution.

Ignore this also. What this whole thing boils down to, not only are we to ask what is it that rises above our opinion pro and con?

Answer – The word of God

But more importantly, what within the word of God makes all else heel?

Hello? Maybe I should repeat that,

What within the word of God makes all else heel?

[jude1:3]

What is clear is that no one dares, "dis"agree with me.
Thats much is very clear.
From what I have seen I have yet to be much impressed with the ability of any believer in the YEC teachings to handle the Scriptures.


No one dares pick up their Bible and try to see if what Im saying is true.

Rather,what I see is the typical response I have seen before, namely that people attack the messenger when they cant stand against the message.
But that is to be expected in that the YEC are not based on the Bible.

On the other hand all that I am now teaching is based on the Bible.
If I say something is in the bible,I will give you chapter and verse to go find it.
I invite people to checkout the Text that I list to see if what iIm saying is truly found there?

When I teach that God made the "Heavens " first, I list the verse that proves this.

When I say that God made the earth as a dry/dead world that was later covered with water, I list the text to support this.

When I say that there is no ending to the 7th day unlike all the other 6 days, I prove this with the text.

When I teach that both humans and animals are from the same source and that this agrees with evolution, I point out this fact with the text of the Bible.

When I say I know why the earth was in "darkness"at the start of the Genesis story even though the sun was already created, I point to the verse that tells us this reason why.

When I point out that at no place in the Genesis story do we read of an anti-evolution argument, I go over the whole Genesis text, verse by verse to show this is true.


over the last few pages of this topic Ihave given short answers to many of the common questions people dealwith when talking about the Genesis -evolution topic,and I can support every answer I give with a verse in the Bible.
And that is why no believer in the YEC lie seems to want to challenge anything I say.
For they know they will lose,

it's finally brought home how out of gas the YEC argument is.



But as for me?...Im just getting started!

I got many, many more things I like to bring up that point out the real weakness in the YEC position,
I also want to dig a bit deeper into the whole approach to the story of Genesis, and how to read it from start to finish, and see how it does in fact, work hand-in-hand with evolution.





Giant Wall of Text that doesn't really say anything.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Ignore this also. What this whole thing boils down to, not only are we to ask what is it that rises above our opinion pro and con?

Answer – The word of God

The YEC position is that God created "light" before he created a source for that light.

The YEC position is that God created light from the stars "in transit"and that the starlight we see at night never actually had anything to really do with a star...(but was made to look like it was from a star.)

The YEC position is that the 7th day has ended.


Be my guest, and support such positions with only this "Word of God" that you claim so highly....









As you have seen, my position is vastly different.

I teach that God created stars like our own sun first, in harmony with the teachings of modern science that also hold that the stars and the stuff in space were created first in the big bang.

I teach that the light from stars is as it appears to be.
That the universe was not designed as a big fat lie.
That you can trust the universe because the same God made the universe also wrote our Bible...so they both reflect the hand of the Lord.

I teach that you can search from one end of the bible to the other and not find a verse that tells us that the 7th day of the creation week has ended ....yet.







This is just a small sampling of where the things I have taught are in complete disagreement with the teachings of YEC.
Feel free to disagree with me all you want, but unless you can point to chapter and verse to back up your views, I will continue to ignore them as being baseless...

[alanmolstad]

anytime anyone wants to pickup there Bible and back up what they believe about genesis?........




Oh thats right, you can't.......

[jude1:3]

Just so you know Alan, I'm not trying to be a **** or anything. I just strongly disagree with your stance and I wish you didn't believe in evolution.

[alanmolstad]

anytime anyone wants to pickup there Bible and back up what they believe about genesis?........




Oh thats right, you can't.......

I bet they want to though.

I bet that the minute I popped-off with a bunch of my Bible verses that prove YEC is a lie they actually did grab their Bible and started to look at the verses I listed for a way to prove me wrong.

Only to then find out the awful truth, "Alan is right"

That had to sting......

[alanmolstad]

Just so you know Alan, I'm not trying to be a **** or anything. I just strongly disagree with your stance and I wish you didn't believe in evolution.

all I see is a lack of people willing to open their Bibles and search the story of Genesis for truth.

all I see is a willingness to only side-step the issues I raise in an effort to change the topic away from what the Bible teaches, and to be more about me as a person.


Well.....I dont play that game.
I dont come here to listen to personal advice.
I dont give a rat's pa-toot about what people wish....

Im only interested in what the Bble teaches in black and white>

I only pay attention to posted comments that are about the topic of Genesis and Evolution....and even then I look for arguments that are based solely on Scripture and I totally disregard people's personal ideas about what Evolution means to them.

I don't give a rip about how much people hate evolution, nor do I give a rip if they have just tons and tons of reasons why they don't believe it evolution....Im not here to teach or defend evolution.

I only care what the Bible says.....end of story.



So if you want me to change my views on Genesis?...fine, then pick up your bible and prove your teachings of YEC are found there.....



But like I said, you wont, cuz you can't.

All that we call the "Young Earth Creationism" is not taken from the Bible, rather its a work of fiction. (most all YEC textbooks and websites are based only on the work of a guy named Henry Morris) ....YEC like the Book of Mormon, is a fiction.

[alanmolstad]

(most all YEC textbooks and websites are based only on the work of a guy named Henry Morris) .

The idea that all the newer books and websites that support the YEC are just a re-hashing of the work of Henry Morris is not my idea.
I would not know this is true or not.

I had to learn this when I was talking one-on-one with Ken Ham ( world's leading YEC teacher at the time)

What Ken Ham told me was that most all the things we read in YEC books is all based on the work of Morris.

Ken also told me that all the people in the YEC teaching community are just re-working the work of Morris, and that the few new things that people are adding now to the body of YEC teachings found in YEC books, (Things like the moon-dust arguments, and the footprint evidences) are things that later turnout to be not as sure as people thought.

Ken told me personally that the work of Morris is sorta the "Bible" for the Creationists.

[jude1:3]

[B]

I totally disregard people's personal ideas about what Evolution means to them.



That's the thing though, All you are doing is pushing Your Opinion. Nothing More.

[alanmolstad]

That's the thing though, All you are doing is pushing Your Opinion. Nothing More.
my opinions...and the bible verse that supports them!

I list a verse to support all I teach.
Every last thing i say, I have a verse that clearly teaches.
I can point to the verse...I can list the verse...


So when I say that the first thing the bible says God created in the beginning was "the heavens", is this just my "opinion" ? or can I point to a verse that clearly says this in black and white?...

I think I can point to a verse.


When the YEC teacher says that god created the light of the stars "in transit" is this just his "opinion"?or is there a verse that clearly teaches this?......I think its just his opinion.

[alanmolstad]

I think everyone knows by now that if I list something the Bible teaches,and I dont tag to it a verse, its only because I hope to be challenged to supply it!

Im ready to pounce!


example....
I have noticed over the years that for some reason people take the wrong mental Point of view when they read Genesis.
I believe far too many Bible students have the mental image of a astronaut when they read the events happening in genesis.
They take the mental Point of view of a man in high orbit around the earth.

But the Bible's point of view (POV) is an earthly point of view.
__________________________________________________ __________________

Now I have not given a verse that supports this idea yet,,,,but the reason I have not done that yet is that I hope some guy reads it and thinks that what im talking about does not come from the book of genesis, and so asks me to support my statements with a verse!




and thats when I hit him with Genesis 1 verse 2

[alanmolstad]

When a person reads the story of Genesis, we are not to have the modern mental image in our mind, ..we are not to pretend we are an astronaut on the space station looking down at the earth.
Rather the Bible tells us the mental image we art to take...the point of view we are to ***ume as we read Genesis.

That POV is talked about at genesis 1:2.
The Spirit of God, that is hovering just over the surface of the waters.

This is the view point from where the whole story is told from.

Not from a space man looking down from high orbit, but rather from a position just hovering over the darkened waters of an endless sea.


Now, with this mental POV in our minds to guide us, we see things in a better way as the story unfolds.

When the Bible says "let there be light; we are to now understand that from our POV of hovering over the water, we now can see this "light"..we know when our side of the earth spins away from the sun's light as we see it get dark from where we are hovering....

[alanmolstad]

so in other words....the Bible point of view that the reader of the Genesis story is to have is an earthly one.

We are not to have the POV of someone in deep space looking down.
The Bible's POV is that of the Spirit of God who is said to be hovering over the waters.

So we are-not looking down, rather we are in the middle...the sky above, the sea below, the land appearing..The darkness all around us,,,then the light appears.

and as our position on the earth turns to and away from the sun we see the difference in the light that we see...

at first all we can tell is when its day and night ,but later (say by day 4)we can now see that even at night there appears a lesser light...
Then as the clouds talked about in *** 38 have totally cleared we can finally make out even the dim lights of the stars...

[alanmolstad]

as there are no more questions for me to deal with, I would like to now return to setting down short answers to common questions that come up.

[alanmolstad]

Many YEC believers dont like Evolution because they say its all up to "chance"in evolution. What are the facts regarding chance?

First I would say that there is really no such thing as "chance" found in evolution.
Things always follow the rules of probability.

Be that as it may, there are many things in science that remain "unknown"as of right now.
But this should not cause the Christian too much concern, for we have in our Bible a story that helps us understand how "chance" fits into our lives....and how its to be understood.

[jude1:3]

Walls of text with no substance. Just nonsense spamming .

[alanmolstad]

That's the best you got eh?

[MichaellS]

That's the best you got eh?

What, , this is some kind of a game to you? Some sort of a contest to win you have inwardly concocted?

While you’re busy with filler, you apparently overlooked that this thread has received a lot of sacred duress (serious commentary).

Okay then SPORT – where is my answer?

Where does ANY of your references in Genesis supersede mine in the epistles?????

Come’n, don’t give me that blank stare, , OUT WITH IT!

I’ve already provided mine, remember?

Link (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814)

So with all this stubborn resistance to either hear or comment on mine, surely there is something to overwhelm that post out of Genesis.

But in a different direction, I don’t wish to follow you there, but to follow Christ in everything He gave us to use. But this is not gametime, the thread is ripe of warning against this evil doctrine which you distance yourself from, saying they are “opinions”. Look, that outlook is only hurting you my friend. The applications are alive and straight from the the text to oppose this.

But you haven't thought the warning necessary. I believe God sought your heart on this, whether it would harden or listen. The prospects you left against these warnings don't look favorable for you, but disastrous as though it was witchcraft. just as the word describes it "witchcraft".

When the notice went up to “repent”, it was only to spare you of what lies ahead. But it is useless if you refuse us to the end. All the promotional tricks in the world won’t be able to recapture it once the last breath is drawn and we stand to give Him an account of our acts. Then you do get your wish, but unfortunately by then it’s – game over.

Therefore, based on this,


“If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them” (***us 3:10)

I would like to confer with the poster Disciple here and the good contributor Jude 1:3 and suggest the beginnings of retiring this thread, as the first and second warnings are long past and as for myself, don’t wish to send a wrong message with the above in mind.

If we feel new threads related to this need to resumed, then I trust that is what the Lord has laid on your heart to encounter.


“For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God” (Romans 8:14)

First and second? For our part, I think the gesture is quite adequate. Mercy and recognition needs to meet somewhere.

Mike.

[alanmolstad]

Where does ANY of your references in Genesis supersede mine in the epistles?????


where did I say one verse superseded another?....

[alanmolstad]

where did I say one verse superseded another?....

While we all understand that all scripture is inspired , we also do understand that not all Scripture is equally relevant on every topic you can name.

[alanmolstad]

What, , this is some kind of a game to you? Some sort of a contest to win you have inwardly concocted?

While you’re busy with filler, you apparently overlooked that this thread has received a lot of sacred duress (serious commentary).

Okay then SPORT – where is my answer?

Where does ANY of your references in Genesis supersede mine in the epistles?????

Come’n, don’t give me that blank stare, , OUT WITH IT!

I’ve already provided mine, remember?

Link (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814)

So with all this stubborn resistance to either hear or comment on mine, surely there is something to overwhelm that post out of Genesis.

But in a different direction, I don’t wish to follow you there, but to follow Christ in everything He gave us to use. But this is not gametime, the thread is ripe of warning against this evil doctrine which you distance yourself from, saying they are “opinions”. Look, that outlook is only hurting you my friend. The applications are alive and straight from the the text to oppose this.

But you haven't thought the warning necessary. I believe God sought your heart on this, whether it would harden or listen. The prospects you left against these warnings don't look favorable for you, but disastrous as though it was witchcraft. just as the word describes it "witchcraft".

When the notice went up to “repent”, it was only to spare you of what lies ahead. But it is useless if you refuse us to the end. All the promotional tricks in the world won’t be able to recapture it once the last breath is drawn and we stand to give Him an account of our acts. Then you do get your wish, but unfortunately by then it’s – game over.

Therefore, based on this,



I would like to confer with the poster Disciple here and the good contributor Jude 1:3 and suggest the beginnings of retiring this thread, as the first and second warnings are long past and as for myself, don’t wish to send a wrong message with the above in mind.

If we feel new threads related to this need to resumed, then I trust that is what the Lord has laid on your heart to encounter.


First and second? For our part, I think the gesture is quite adequate. Mercy and recognition needs to meet somewhere.

Mike.



I dont understand much of your posts , Im beginning to think that English is like your 2nd language or something?


anyway, I have posted a bunch of things on the topic of Genesis and Evolution,,,I have always provided a Bible verse to support all things...
But if you have read anything I have posted and want me to take a 2nd look at it?
Or if you have a question about a verse and how it is understood, just let me know and I will be happy to address such issues.

[MichaellS]

Appreciate your response, really, thanks.


where did I say one verse superseded another?....

You didn’t, it was I who introduced that. And no, I’m not suggesting the removal of any text.

If you applied what I said in #128 (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814), you would know the context of “supersede” as I used it.

That use of mine suggested in the epistles is actually rising up against your suggestions of evolution in Genesis. But not mine alone as I’m sure you know. It is our hope that you have contemplated those points as much as we have yours.

The whole spirit of “supersede” as I used it reaches in and covers the very reception of the word of God from cover-to-cover, but not just reception, but to guard what inspiration from the text comes forth. If we are trying to be deep and sensitive to the text, then that inspiration won’t ever be in conflict with my notation,


“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

And should always be found applying it where the word of God says to apply it,


“All scripture” (II Timothy 3:16)

Then we know every time we pick up and open His word, we won’t have reason to allow our thoughts to supersede,

1. All scriptures
2. Knowledge of God
3. Obedience of Christ

[alanmolstad]

Its like random words.....strung in a line....
Thats what It seems like to read your posts.

I did catch you referred to post number #128....but that was your post ( and that post again I simply dont understand) not mine, so Im still not sure where I said that a verse that is talking about Genesis in the New Testament is related to our topic here?...

as far as I can guess, any verses in the New Testament talking about Genesis would be dealing with the whole "He made them male and female" issue, and I dont have any problems with that verse.....
And as far asI can remember, that is about the only time Jesus or the Saints addressed the Genesis Creation story....so .



]Now the idea itself that one verse in the Bible is more important than another is a valid concept.
I have said before that while all the Bible is inspired, its not all equally relevant in every situation.

That actually came up once in Bible School I attended, where a student answered a question by saying that - "The Bible will answer all our questions"
I disagreed with that, and said that my view is that the Bible only "Answers the questions it felt important to answer, not every question we can ask of it"


Now in the study of Genesis there are many Bible verses that are very relevant, there are also many verses that are not relevant.

My aim is to try to stay on track, to address Bible text that are relevant to understanding what the Bible is teaching about how God created this earth.

I dont quote much in the way of non-Bible sources, so dont blame me if you dont like to deal with this Bible issue.

The study of Genesis in connection to science is a very valid study, and its going on in the church all the time.
It's also a question that is of great concern for younger students....

Im also student of the Bible and I can tell you first-hand , that this topic is one of the things that occupy shelf after shelf in any christian book store.
I doubt you can walk into any Christian book store in this country and not find a "Creation/evolution section"

Now, if you dont think Christians should even study evolution?...thats your deal.

Im not here to show you how much importance to put on the different issues that Christians need to be ready to have an answer for.

Im just reminded personally, that I need to be ready "always" to give to anyone that asks, the reason for my faith.
And my faith is in the bible...and i share what I have learned.


And I also believe that what we do when we study Genesis is to build on the work Gd gave Adam to do.
most people only remember that Adam tended the garden...and while thats true, God actually did give Adam a higher work to do.
For God created the animals and brought them to Adam to see what Adam would name them.

This makes Adam the first scientist!
For Adam was involved in the study of the world.

To this day , and in many, many ways, the study of this world started by Adam continues.

So the study of the universe, the study of God's word in Genesis, the study of how they are connected, is a work given man by God himself.

Nothing of what I teach about the Genesis /evolution connections is taken from non-Bible sources, and as I didnt write the bible, I am only pointing out what God felt was important enough for us to have written down for us to study.

God felt this stuff was important...

Not me,,,,God did.....or rather - God does!

So Im not the one to blame if you don't like what I point out the Bible teaches.

For like I said, the bible does not answer every question we can ask, but it does answer the questions God felt were important enough to be answered.

Im just quoting God's answer.[/B]

[alanmolstad]

Do I believe that the Lord's quoting the story of the creation of Adam and Eve are relevant in our discussion of Evolution?


No.

Not much anyway...


I believe that the times when we read out Lord quote Genesis, he is talking mostly about marriage.
So we cant just twist his words into thinking that Jesus was taking also a position, for or against evolution.

I do believe you can use the Lord's use of the creation of Adam and Eve to support some other arguments...like for example the fact that it was a male and female that are married.
or that Adam only was given ONE wife.


But that's about it for what i think is the correct use of the words of Christ that were in his context clearly aimed at the question of divorce.

I would be totally wrong to try to use the words of Christ on divorce as a way to attack things like Macro-evolution, or the age of the earth, etc,

[MichaellS]

Its like random words.....strung in a line....
Thats what It seems like to read your posts.

I did catch you referred to post number #128....but that was your post ( and that post again I simply dont understand) not mine, so Im still not sure where I said that a verse that is talking about Genesis in the New Testament is related to our topic here?...

as far as I can guess, any verses in the New Testament talking about Genesis would be dealing with the whole "He made them male and female" issue, and I dont have any problems with that verse.....
And as far asI can remember, that is about the only time Jesus or the Saints addressed the Genesis Creation story....so .



]Now the idea itself that one verse in the Bible is more important than another is a valid concept.
I have said before that while all the Bible is inspired, its not all equally relevant in every situation.

That actually came up once in Bible School I attended, where a student answered a question by saying that - "The Bible will answer all our questions"
I disagreed with that, and said that my view is that the Bible only "Answers the questions it felt important to answer, not every question we can ask of it"


Now in the study of Genesis there are many Bible verses that are very relevant, there are also many verses that are not relevant.

My aim is to try to stay on track, to address Bible text that are relevant to understanding what the Bible is teaching about how God created this earth.

I dont quote much in the way of non-Bible sources, so dont blame me if you dont like to deal with this Bible issue.

The study of Genesis in connection to science is a very valid study, and its going on in the church all the time.
It's also a question that is of great concern for younger students....

Im also student of the Bible and I can tell you first-hand , that this topic is one of the things that occupy shelf after shelf in any christian book store.
I doubt you can walk into any Christian book store in this country and not find a "Creation/evolution section"

Now, if you dont think Christians should even study evolution?...thats your deal.

Im not here to show you how much importance to put on the different issues that Christians need to be ready to have an answer for.

Im just reminded personally, that I need to be ready "always" to give to anyone that asks, the reason for my faith.
And my faith is in the bible...and i share what I have learned.


And I also believe that what we do when we study Genesis is to build on the work Gd gave Adam to do.
most people only remember that Adam tended the garden...and while thats true, God actually did give Adam a higher work to do.
For God created the animals and brought them to Adam to see what Adam would name them.

This makes Adam the first scientist!
For Adam was involved in the study of the world.

To this day , and in many, many ways, the study of this world started by Adam continues.

So the study of the universe, the study of God's word in Genesis, the study of how they are connected, is a work given man by God himself.

Nothing of what I teach about the Genesis /evolution connections is taken from non-Bible sources, and as I didnt write the bible, I am only pointing out what God felt was important enough for us to have written down for us to study.

God felt this stuff was important...

Not me,,,,God did.....or rather - God does!

So Im not the one to blame if you don't like what I point out the Bible teaches.

For like I said, the bible does not answer every question we can ask, but it does answer the questions God felt were important enough to be answered.

Im just quoting God's answer.[/B]

Typical Evolution cult prop and protection, brought to you the reader by this customary evasion. Notice the subtle cover from my last points made.

Thread contributors > A, D, J, M

Thread mercy > D, J, M

Everything else, a demonic leap of doom. Superficial Christianity is no Christianity at all. Seen here by averting the points all. Reader beware.

Supporters, if there are any, don’t dare walk in the light of exposure as the Son won’t be mocked by avoiding His will. Those who choose to try have a price to pay. The cost? Denying that will > a devilish an***hesis.

Mike, is less than impressed.

Out.

[alanmolstad]

Well I'm glad to see I covered all that you were asking about.
I did try to address any of the concerns that I think you were pointing to.
let me know if you still had a question about something I have writen or about our topic of how to view the Genesis/evolution subject.

[alanmolstad]

If anyone else has another point that I have made that they would like me to to have a 2nd look at?
Or anything connected with our topic here on how a Christians should look at the story of Genesis?...just let me know .

Otherwise, tonight I will return to writing about the common questions that come up when you are involved in the story of God's Word and the teachings of Evolution.

[alanmolstad]

So the "creation Days" are to be understood to be talking about a very long time?


yes.
There is no ending to the 7th day at all in the Scriptures.

[alanmolstad]

Did God create the earth before the sun and moon?

No....

Here is a video that helps you see what the bible is teaching us.

http://www.reasons.org/videos/did-god-create-the-earth-before-the-sun-and-moon



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlGVqUZo83s

[alanmolstad]

So you said that the Young Earth teachings go wrong at Genesis 1:1, but what do you mean by this?


I means that the YEC teachings simply don't believe what the Bible says at Gen 1:1.
They don't believe it, because they have added to the text on the 4th day, and so if they were to also believe in Genesis 1:1 as written it would make them look silly for thinking they needed to add to the 4th day at all.

The 4th day is not about the creation of the sun and moon, rather it is about the fact that the earth now received stronger light from the sun by day 4.

You can see this fact easy enough if you just read the Text as it appears, and don't mentally replace the words "Greater light"with the word "sun"
If you can do that, if you can just read the text as its written,then you will start to see how truly silly the YEC teachings are, and how nothing is needed to be added to the story.

The story reads just fine the way it is,without any need of us to think we will fix things by adding or replacing words to it.

[alanmolstad]

http://www.reasons.org/videos/did-go...e-sun-and-moon


I got to go see Ross speak one time.
I found his views on the age of the Earth to be refreshing.

[MichaellS]

Over and over and over you keep asking for a verse in Genesis. Sorry little one, the party actually ended long ago, but don’t stop the promotion, you are we see enjoying yourself simply too much. Unless that is you can bring yourself to see things differently?!?!

Since you now don’t want to read any more of my comments, let me keep this as concise a Christian declaration that uniformly separates evolution from Christianity as possible. You see, we as Christians don’t want to be thought uncharitable when hearing the views of others, whether they bring Christian content or not.

So then, that is the question isn’t it, which all the brethren have answered for those who truly are concerned,

Is Evolution Christian or non-Christian?

I too have given our friend Alan half the answer that should have been enough to stop a whole herd of Bible irregulars with a thousand counterfeits. But not Alan.



Okay then, connecting the Apostle’s opposition to Genesis. Is that what you want? If I provide that, will you stop leading the people astray as though evolution is something considered to be “Christian”?

Let me provide the reader that which deals with this in no uncertain terms. But first we need to repair all of the broken context so we can easily see just how ungodly it is. In other words, does it belong in a Christian church? Most definitely not, and here also is why.



Patience my friend, patience. Here, let’s review, collect, and close the question, shall we?

As I said, the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle,


“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Now, couple this verse with another verse so we can clearly see the parameters of “thought”,


“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Now then here is Alan’s concern,



Okay then, but keep in mind who we are talking about here, this is about Christians who want to be known for using the word of God in faith, , “For all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23)

Now then, where does the Apostle’s concern lay claim to Genesis?

II Timothy 3:16, “All scripture”

But what does this all mean to the painfully simple-minded individual out there? Let’s boil it all down for him shall we?

As the Apostle Paul did say in a number of ways, we are to keep his very conduct before us while we all by the help of His Spirit, try to follow Christ. This is shown in a number of scriptures.

Now comes a strong-man of thought – Evolution. What would the Apostles have done with evolution?

They would have first identified it,

Ripe of unrelated conjecture to Christ.

Then they would act without delay, remember? For they were concerned for “redeeming the time”


They would have destroyed it (II Corinthians 10:5)

But how much of it?


All, all “Christ and him crucified” (I Corinthians 2:2)

But how much of the Bible should v2 lay claim to?


All. (II Timothy 3:16)

Well, there you have it. Now the ball is in your court to decide as a Christian.

• Renounce your obedience to Christ and continue this promotional show, or,

• Commence repentance immediately as fellow member Jude informed us.

Of which all of us would be elated over to hear of without exception. Don't delay!

Mike.
.


Should all Christian counterfeits weep over feeding the beast of evolution? Look up the thread, , get up, , and get over it!

The night is selfishly spent, , it’s time, for God calls us to repentance, not selfishness.

“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21)

“For,
“, , THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.” (I Pet 1:24, 25)

Note* - Beware of glaring flag to cherry pick this post. Because if I am wrong about that status of a counterfeit, then the Holy Spirit will bring glory to the thread and correct me and every other Christian I am also committed to in this thread. He can show us a counterfeit.

[MichaellS]

Over and over and over you keep asking for a verse in Genesis. Sorry little one, the party actually ended long ago, but don’t stop the promotion, you are we see enjoying yourself simply too much. Unless that is you can bring yourself to see things differently?!?!

Since you now don’t want to read any more of my comments, let me keep this as concise a Christian declaration that uniformly separates evolution from Christianity as possible. You see, we as Christians don’t want to be thought uncharitable when hearing the views of others, whether they bring Christian content or not.

So then, that is the question isn’t it, which all the brethren have answered for those who truly are concerned,

Is Evolution Christian or non-Christian?

I too have given our friend Alan half the answer that should have been enough to stop a whole herd of Bible irregulars with a thousand counterfeits. But not Alan.



Okay then, connecting the Apostle’s opposition to Genesis. Is that what you want? If I provide that, will you stop leading the people astray as though evolution is something considered to be “Christian”?

Let me provide the reader that which deals with this in no uncertain terms. But first we need to repair all of the broken context so we can easily see just how ungodly it is. In other words, does it belong in a Christian church? Most definitely not, and here also is why.



Patience my friend, patience. Here, let’s review, collect, and close the question, shall we?

As I said, the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle,


“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Now, couple this verse with another verse so we can clearly see the parameters of “thought”,


“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Now then here is Alan’s concern,



Okay then, but keep in mind who we are talking about here, this is about Christians who want to be known for using the word of God in faith, , “For all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23)

Now then, where does the Apostle’s concern lay claim to Genesis?

II Timothy 3:16, “All scripture”

But what does this all mean to the painfully simple-minded individual out there? Let’s boil it all down for him shall we?

As the Apostle Paul did say in a number of ways, we are to keep his very conduct before us while we all by the help of His Spirit, try to follow Christ. This is shown in a number of scriptures.

Now comes a strong-man of thought – Evolution. What would the Apostles have done with evolution?

They would have first identified it,

Ripe of unrelated conjecture to Christ.

Then they would act without delay, remember? For they were concerned for “redeeming the time”


They would have destroyed it (II Corinthians 10:5)

But how much of it?


All, all “Christ and him crucified” (I Corinthians 2:2)

But how much of the Bible should v2 lay claim to?


All. (II Timothy 3:16)

Well, there you have it. Now the ball is in your court to decide as a Christian.

• Renounce your obedience to Christ and continue this promotional show, or,

• Commence repentance immediately as fellow member Jude informed us.

Of which all of us would be elated over to hear of without exception. Don't delay!

Mike.
.


Should all Christian counterfeits weep over feeding the beast of evolution? Look up the thread, , get up, , and get over it!

The night is selfishly spent, , it’s time, for God calls us to repentance, not selfishness.


“Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Ephesians 5:21)

“For,
“, , THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.” (I Pet 1:24, 25)

Note* - Beware of glaring flag to cherry pick this post. Because if I am wrong about that status of a counterfeit, then the Holy Spirit will bring glory to the thread and correct me and every other Christian I am also committed to in this thread. He can show us a counterfeit.

[alanmolstad]

any time you have a question about any verse I quoted...just let me know..

[alanmolstad]

The truth if evolution is found in the science...

What Im saying is that regardless of if evolution is true or not, it yet does agree with the Scriptures.



So Im not telling anyone that they have to believe in evolution...
Imjust saying that the teachings of evolution agree with and walk hand in hand with the story of Genesis....

[MichaellS]

No it doesn't, , as explained. But how could we possibly know that by being immersed in drowning out it, the truth and our appeals? By preoccupation you have closed yourself off from the actual care we offered at length. I worked I thought fairly diligent to invite you to recover to what the scriptures want from us, but the same two features you offer tell us otherwise. By works, you'll continue to push the voice away and listen to your own congratulatory preoccupation, aka 'self-willed".

[alanmolstad]

No it doesn't, , as explained. But how could we possibly know that by being immersed in drowning out it, the truth and our appeals? By preoccupation you have closed yourself off from the actual care we offered at length. I worked I thought fairly diligent to invite you to recover to what the scriptures want from us, but the same two features you offer tell us otherwise. By works, you'll continue to push the voice away and listen to your own congratulatory preoccupation, aka 'self-willed".
yes, well....Um, dont understand a word of that post,

But regardless, I will push on this weekend to go over how both Genesis and evolution will work hand in hand with each other , to bring a more well-rounded understanding to us of early earth history....


stay tuned....

[alanmolstad]

in science what is the first thing that they say happened in history?.....the Big Bang.
What we are told by science is that all the stars and all the other stuff up there in outer space came out of the big bang.

The Bible tells us the same thing at Genesis 1:1....

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.



In the bible the word "heavens" can mean a few things, and one of the things it can mean is to talk of all the stars and stuff up there in outer space...

So right at the start of the genesis story we have agreement between Science and the Scriptures!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

The Young Earthers want us to believe that the Earth was created before the sun...they also want us to believe that the "light" first talked about in the Genesis story was not from our sun....

The Young Earthers are WRONG!



The Bible teaches that the sun and stars were created in the beginning....the bible teaches that the Light talked about in all of the Genesis story is coming from the sun...
Thats what the Bible says so thats what I believe!

Science and the Bible agree!!!!!

[jude1:3]

No other Christians on this board agree with you Alan. You Are Wrong.

[alanmolstad]

No other Christians on this board agree with you Alan. You Are Wrong.....LOL...you mean the other guy?* :)


What I have found is that I only need to make sure the bible agrees with me....


one man with the Lord's Word on his side is not alone....not alone at all....



I have taught a great many things on the topic of Evolution and Genesis...I have backed everything I have taught with Scripture...
I have actually dared anyone to challenge me on any point I have raised...I have dared anyone that might disagree with me to step forward and open their Bible to see if what I have said appears in the text as I claim?

So far.......not a single person has asked me, "Where does it say that in the bible?"......I believe the reason is that they see clearly that I do know what Im talking about, and that I have clearly backed-up what Im saying over and over with the Bible's text....

They may not like it....they may still believe that I must somehow be wrong....but they dont dare try to open the Bible to prove Im wrong because they know that cant be done.











* the statement you made was truly silly, for it would be like a Mormon telling me that there is some type of deep meaning to the fact that the vast majority of "Forum Guests" here disagree with my views on Smith, for I would just respond with - "You mean the Mormons ?"

[jude1:3]

I'm Not trying to be a **** Alan, just so you know.

I don't think you realize what believing in Evolution truly means. You are pushing an idea that totally denies The Creation work of God Almighty.



When I said other "Christians" I was referring to the ones that have been posting in this thread like MachaellS and Disciple.

[alanmolstad]

You don't dare challenge me over the text...so you attack evolution in the hope I will rush to defend evolution.

But I don't defend evolution..
I only have said it works with Genesis.


So what will you do now?.
Perhaps attack Darwin?
Or perhaps point out how other guests also think I'm wrong?....oh wait you already tried that...

Maby you could attack me personally. .or pretend to be worried about my soul?...that might help hide the fact you can't use the Bible to show where I'm wrong...


Sure.....

[jude1:3]

But I don't defend evolution.


But that's exactly what you are doing.



Perhaps attack Darwin?

Why do you want to defend him ?



Or perhaps point out how other guests also think I'm wrong?....oh wait you already tried that...


And They Still think that you are wrong about this.





Maby you could attack me personally.


I haven't done that and I don't want to do that Alan.




.or pretend to be worried about my soul?.


I actually do think that you are Unknowingly peddling a demonic Lie. I really do.

[alanmolstad]

still you dont dare talk about Bible stuff......LOL

Very interesting...
Well I guess you know your limitations better than i do.








Once again, I have taught a great deal about how Genesis and Evolution walk hand-in-hand and offer the Christian Bible student a very well-rounded understanding of early Earth history.
genesis and evolution teach us about the same events in Earth's history, but do so from two different points of view.....this is why they may use different words and terms, but yet have a harmony between them.




Lets turn to a few of the issues that I learned about from my study of the Bible,and see how it compares to what I learned from my time in Ken Ham's 8 week ORIGINS cl***?

The Bible-
If we open our Bible what we find is that the very first things God is said to have created in the "Heavens and the earth"
We also know that the words "heavens" can mean a few things in different context, and we know that the term "Heavens can be used to talk about all the stars in the sky, as well as all the other things that were created out there in the darkness of the night sky. (stars like our sun, all the worlds, the galaxy etc)
So the Bible says God created the stars first.


In Evolution/science-
In evolution and in science we learn that in the event of the Big bang all the things that came later were created. allthe Stars date from this one moment in time.
And we learn that stars like our own sun are partof an unending evolution of star material that goesback Billions of years but it all started with the Big bang.
So in evolution/science we find that stars are created first in the beginning.


In Young Earth Creationism-
In YEC we learn that God made a type of mysterious light that he used in the opening of Genesis, (a source-less light) and that later in the creation week God made the sun and the moon after he had made the earth...and that Stars are first made many days after the creation of the earth and seas.






the conclusion?
The conclusion is that Young Earth Creationism is a false teaching not based on the Bible!
The conclusion is that science and the bible are in agreement.

[MichaellS]

No other Christians on this board agree with you Alan. You Are Wrong.

Hello again! Right, the Dog and Pony will have to speak come judgment day for the truth omitting convenience now enjoyed.

[alanmolstad]

This is one of my better posts on the topic.

and has yet to be challenged I notice....
still you dont dare talk about Bible stuff......LOL

Very interesting...
Well I guess you know your limitations better than i do.








Once again, I have taught a great deal about how Genesis and Evolution walk hand-in-hand and offer the Christian Bible student a very well-rounded understanding of early Earth history.
genesis and evolution teach us about the same events in Earth's history, but do so from two different points of view.....this is why they may use different words and terms, but yet have a harmony between them.




Lets turn to a few of the issues that I learned about from my study of the Bible,and see how it compares to what I learned from my time in Ken Ham's 8 week ORIGINS cl***?

The Bible-
If we open our Bible what we find is that the very first things God is said to have created in the "Heavens and the earth"
We also know that the words "heavens" can mean a few things in different context, and we know that the term "Heavens can be used to talk about all the stars in the sky, as well as all the other things that were created out there in the darkness of the night sky. (stars like our sun, all the worlds, the galaxy etc)
So the Bible says God created the stars first.


In Evolution/science-
In evolution and in science we learn that in the event of the Big bang all the things that came later were created. allthe Stars date from this one moment in time.
And we learn that stars like our own sun are partof an unending evolution of star material that goesback Billions of years but it all started with the Big bang.
So in evolution/science we find that stars are created first in the beginning.


In Young Earth Creationism-
In YEC we learn that God made a type of mysterious light that he used in the opening of Genesis, (a source-less light) and that later in the creation week God made the sun and the moon after he had made the earth...and that Stars are first made many days after the creation of the earth and seas.






the conclusion?
The conclusion is that Young Earth Creationism is a false teaching not based on the Bible!
The conclusion is that science and the bible are in agreement.

[disciple]

This is one of my better posts on the topic.

and has yet to be challenged I notice....

Those who promote the theory of evolution ( and that is what you are doing Alan) ask us to doubt God’s word concerning creation. This is exactly what the serpent suggested to Eve. That is what led to Adam and Eve’s rebellion in the Garden of Eden. They doubted what God had told them concerning what would happen if they disobeyed Him.

When God finished the creation week, He pronounced everything “very good”. This theory which you say walks “hand in hand” with the bible wants us to believe that God created a less than perfect world, which then ‘evolved’ into something better. Was God mistaken when He pronounced His creation very good? Did the evolutionary process have to improve upon God’s initial *** of creation? This hardly describes the biblical God found in the Scriptures.

The first book of the Bible, as well as all Scripture, can be taken at face value and trusted. We know Who the author is; we know His character, His love, and His mercy. We can trust His Word. The only record we have of the creation events is contained in the Bible. The Bible was written by “holy men of God who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit”. 1 Peter 1:21 Therefore, we have God’s description of creation contained in the book of Genesis, and other places in the Bible.

When you compromise the truth by allowing worldly theories to reinterpret the Bible, you open yourself up to the possibility of even more dangerous compromises. Consider that there are many who reject the idea of Jesus’ resurrection because secular science says that resurrections cannot happen.

[MichaellS]

Those who promote the theory of evolution ( and that is what you are doing Alan) ask us to doubt God’s word concerning creation. This is exactly what the serpent suggested to Eve. That is what led to Adam and Eve’s rebellion in the Garden of Eden. They doubted what God had told them concerning what would happen if they disobeyed Him.

When God finished the creation week, He pronounced everything “very good”. This theory which you say walks “hand in hand” with the bible wants us to believe that God created a less than perfect world, which then ‘evolved’ into something better. Was God mistaken when He pronounced His creation very good? Did the evolutionary process have to improve upon God’s initial *** of creation? This hardly describes the biblical God found in the Scriptures.

The first book of the Bible, as well as all Scripture, can be taken at face value and trusted. We know Who the author is; we know His character, His love, and His mercy. We can trust His Word. The only record we have of the creation events is contained in the Bible. The Bible was written by “holy men of God who spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit”. 1 Peter 1:21 Therefore, we have God’s description of creation contained in the book of Genesis, and other places in the Bible.

When you compromise the truth by allowing worldly theories to reinterpret the Bible, you open yourself up to the possibility of even more dangerous compromises. Consider that there are many who reject the idea of Jesus’ resurrection because secular science says that resurrections cannot happen.

Good one. One I never considered.


And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (Gen 2:2)

“ended” means Done, “to be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished or spent”

And “all” means “the whole, all” - Strong’s Concordance.

But another one you brought up, something I don’t recall either of us discussing before – enticement.

Could it be, if I inflate my imagination and convince myself 'surely “ended” doesn’t mean ended'.:mad:

Just as you said, just as he said, just as all mankind has had to answer for – rebellion, that I have mentioned.

[alanmolstad]

anyone find that one verse that teaches that the 7th day has ended yet?

Nope?....you have not spotted it yet even after I challenged you a bunch of times to list the verse?'


Have you checked behind the couch?.....

[disciple]

anyone find that one verse that teaches that the 7th day has ended yet?

Nope?....you have not spotted it yet even after I challenged you a bunch of times to list the verse?'


Have you checked behind the couch?.....

Alan, I'm sure you understand that many things in Scripture are unprovable, yet you ask for proof.
This tactic does not make you right but certainly shows that your desire is to be proven right. The
truth and veracity of God's word is accepted by faith not by sight, and while God does give evidence
for much of His word many things are accepted on faith alone. I cannot give you a verse that shows that
the 7th day has ended, perhaps someone else can. When one considers context, the whole body of
scripture and the reasonable and logical way words are used in other places in the scriptures to mean the
same thing it is more than obvious that we can take God's word to be accurate. God is to be recognized as truthful
no matter how many fallible and rebellious men disagree with him, dispute him, or viciously oppose him.
His integrity is everlastingly stable.

[alanmolstad]

I cannot give you a verse that shows that
the 7th day has ended, perhaps someone else can....

When one considers context,......

Fine lets look at the whole context of the endings to the creation days.

Does the writer of the genesis story list a very clear ending to the 1st day?....yes , read Genesis 1:5

Does the writer of the Genesis story list a clear ending to days 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6?......yes, read Gen 1:7, 13,19,23,and 31.
The writer goes way out of his way to make sure that we can know for sure that each day of the creation week that has p***ed was ended.

You cant miss it.

Its clearly written in black and white.

No one can ever say that , "Day 4 has not ended yet" because you can list the very verse that proves the writer wanted us all to know that the 4th day has already ended.


But what of the 7th day?

Is there just a clearly written ending to the 7th day?...no

Is there any verse in the whole Bible that teaches the 7th day has ended just as clearly as the writer chose to show us that the first 6 days have ended?.....no!


The truth is this....that you can not prove the 7th Day of the creation week has ended by just using the Bible.
Simply put, the Bible does not teach the 7th day has ended yet.....case-closed!

I think this fact is behind your comment that perhaps someone else might be able to list the ending that you cant seem to find.
You may be thinking that its only because you have overlooked some verse?...or perhaps you believe that someone else with lots and lots of "Bible Smarts" will be able to find the verse that ends the 7th day where as you missed it?

But this is nothing for you to worry about, (you not being able to find the verse) for the truthis that there is No Such Verse!

It does not matter how long you look for it, its simply not found in the Bible.

So it dont matter how many "Bible Smarts" another person might have, they are never going to be able to find a verse that simply is not writen in the Bible....

So the fact that you have failed to list such a verse is not anything against you or your scholarship.
The truth is, had you tried to "force" an ending to the 7th Day where one does not appear you would have been guilty of "Adding to the Word Of God!"

But admitting that you cant list the verse shows you respect the Scripture!


So this then is the "CONTEXT"....
The context is that we have a story with very clean and clear endings for the first 6 days of the creation week,,,AND.......and we dont have any ending to the 7th day in the whole story of Genesis, nor in the whole Old Testament, nor in the whole rest of the BIBLE!!!!!!

Thats the context!

and when we read the story in its correct context and not force it to say things it does not say, then we see that in this context there is no need at all to "force" the story to end the 7th day just because that makes us feel better.

The context proves there is no ending to the 7th day.

[disciple]

Fine lets look at the whole context of the endings to the creation days.

Does the writer of the genesis story list a very clear ending to the 1st day?....yes is read Genesis 1:5

Does the writer of the Genesis story list a clear ending to days 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6?......yes, read Gen 1:7, 13,19,23,and 31.
The writer goes way out of his way to make sure that we can know for sure that each day of the creation week that has p***ed was ended.



So how long were each of these days that had a clear ending?

[alanmolstad]

So how long were each of these days that had a clear ending?how long has the 7th day lasted so far without ending yet?.....we dont know.

[alanmolstad]

where do we read in the Bible that god has ended his resting of the work of creation?.....Rev 21

[alanmolstad]

how long will the 7th day of Gods rest of the creation work last until we get to Rev 21?...........we dont know



What do we know for sure by just sticking to the text of the Bible and not adding endings ?

We know that there is no ending yet the 7th day.
We know god is still resting of his creative work.

But we also know that at Rev 21 we see God return to his work of creation.
So we know for a fact that this 7th day of creation work rest that we are currently within, does end!

There is a very clear ending of this time of rest....that is what we know for sure.


But how long will the 7th day last yet?.....we dont know.

[alanmolstad]

Thus...

This is why when I ask anyone to list the verse that teaches the 7th day has ended no one can do that.

The reason is that the Bible does not teach at any place that the 7th day has already ended.



RATHER, what the Bible does clearly teach is that this day of God's rest from the work of creation "will end" !!!!!!!




The Bible teaches that the resting "will end" and God will onbce again return to his creation work.





Thus the Bible supports the idea that the day of rest will end.....not "has ended"......rather one day we do read that it clearly "will end".

[alanmolstad]

http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-continuation-of-creation-day-seven

[alanmolstad]

Thus...

This is why when I ask anyone to list the verse that teaches the 7th day has ended no one can do that.

.
It does not matter what you try...

You can read all kinds of Young Earth Creationism books looking for a listing for the ending to the 7th day....you will fail to find a listing.

You can go visit all the YEC websites you can find looking for a verse that ends the 7th day....You will fail to find a listing there too.

It does not matter if you even talked personally to Ken Ham (as I have done), even he cant list a verse that teaches the 7th day has ended.




No one can!

It's not a Bible teaching, and never was!

Oh you may find tons and tons of text to read on the topic....and they will likely try to bury you under a pile of their reasons why the 7th day 'must" have ended by now...But if you stick to your guns and demand a clear verse that supports their idea that the 7th day ended?......zip.

They got nothing to offer.

They got no Bible verse that teaches what they sure want you to believe the bible teaches.

This is because the idea that the 7th day ended is not based on the Text....it's based only on their needs.

The YEC teachers, books, websites, all need the 7th day to have ended , because if it has not, if the Bible can truly be understood as written without their adding things to it, then all of the YEC teachings fall like a house of cards!


The teaching that the 7th day of Genesis has already ended is a false teaching that was invented .

It was invented by men who are not afraid to add to the Word of God, and to teach false teachings that help sell their books.

[alanmolstad]

I still have not seen anyone post a Bible verse that teaches the 7th day of Genesis is over....

[alanmolstad]

to review the story of Jonah-


Jonah is on a ship.
There is a great storm.
The crew is scared, and they think they are all going to die.
They decide to draw lots to see who is at fault for the storm?

(Now Im not sure what it means to "draw-lot" but lets just say they draw straws.)


So lets say there were 10 people that were drawing straws.
What is the "chance" any of the people have of drawing the short straw?......answer, 1 out of 10 correct?


I think we all can see how each of the people on the ship in the storm had a 1out of 10 chance of drawing the short straw.
Thats the facts....thats science...

thats how men of science look at the world...they see the "chance" is not just dumb-luck, but rather it comes down to the laws or probability.
Nothing about drawing straws is magic....

Just as nothing about the science of the study of Evolution is magic.
There are rules that govern the outcomes in drawing straws just as there are tons and tons of rules that govern evolution...


But....to the student of the Bible...."WE".....we get to know a little bit information that the man of science does not get.

and that makes all the difference in both how we read and understand the story of Jonah, and in our study of evolution.





what do we know?
We know that God was in the drawing of the straws....and because god was in control, there was a 100% "chance' that Jonah would pick the short straw.

We know this.....

We know that god did not just leave this up to random luck....

We know that when Jonah picked the short straw it was all part of god's eternal plan that was set in stone and fixed before the universe was created.

Nothing was left to chance.



But at the same time...if a man of science were watching the men on the ship draw straws, he would have seen no giant hand reaching down out of the sky to control the straws.
To the man of science observing, there would have been no sign at all that god did any controlling of the outcome in any way!

Thus....you can have something that looks to be total dumb luck....and at the same time have God in full control.
Both things are totally true....and do not contradict each other at all...



So the life in the universe can be here via evolution.....and God can be in full control.

and both ideas are totally 100% true....

[alanmolstad]

What all this means is that the people that try to say that the Bible is against evolution are wrong.