Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

[disciple]

There are a lot of people, many who call themselves Christians, who believe that Genesis is an inadequate presentation of what happened and we have to marry it with scientific discovery in order to get to the truth. Get past the idea that science, makes any contribution to an understanding of creation. It makes none. There is no such thing as the science of creation. There is no such thing. It does not exist. Why? Because there is no scientific way to explain creation. It was not a natural event or a series of natural events. It was a brief series of monumental super-natural events that cannot be explained by science. All science is based on observation and no one observed creation. All science must be verified by repe***ion and creation cannot be repeated, and thus it cannot be verified. So, all that is left to the reader of scripture is the opportunity to believe and trust in the Word of the Creator. Some people say, “Well couldn’t God have used evolution? The answer is no. He couldn’t have used evolution because God doesn’t deal in randomness and chance. He determined to create miraculously which is the only way that it could have happened because it’s the way it did happen. And He did it all in six days. This is either true, or it’s not. If it’s true, then Scripture is true. If it’s not, then Scripture is not true. Before Darwin, no one was confused by it. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” From there the first chapter of Genesis proceeds to tell us that in six twenty-four hour days, purposely noting morning and evening, that God created everything that exists. It is so simple and so clear and so unmistakable that even a small child can understand Genesis 1. And calling evolution “theistic evolution” does not make it any more true, because evolution can’t happen. It's impossible, and it is impossible because things cannot move upward, they all move downward in decay, that's the law of thermodynamics, called entropy, a law that God created. It's easy to illustrate. If you take your car put it out in the woods and leave it there for 50 years, you'll go back and you'll find a rotted out, rusted out, dilapidated, collapsing pile of junk. It would be idiocy to conclude that if you just left it there for another hundred years it would start running. Jumping from species to species in an upward fashion does not happen, cannot happen, has never happened. We can't accept theistic evolution because we can't accept any kind of evolution because evolution can't happen. Evolution and scripture do not go hand in hand. If you accept an evolutionary view, you then go against the reason which is a gift that God has given you.

[alanmolstad]

Let me show you how "chance" works in the bible...and how you can have a world with chance in it, yet also have a world under the authority of God.

[alanmolstad]

First...the thing we call "chance"is not really part of evolution.
Evolution works by lots and lots of rules that determine outcomes.
In fact, in evolution, nothing is actually left to chance.


But the idea of 'chance" or random events that are hard to predict is not something that shoild scare Bible students....for we see examples in the Text of how we are to understand "chance" and understand how God can used it

[alanmolstad]

The example of how we can have both "chance" and God in full control at the same time is shown us in the example of Jonah and the whale.


Remember that story?

The story is a great example of how the christian should understand the idea of "chance"

[alanmolstad]

to review the story of Jonah-


Jonah is on a ship.
There is a great storm.
The crew is scared, and they think they are all going to die.
They decide to draw lots to see who is at fault for the storm?

(Now Im not sure what it means to "draw-lot" but lets just say they draw straws.)


So lets say there were 10 people that were drawing straws.
What is the "chance" any of the people have of drawing the short straw?......answer, 1 out of 10 correct?


I think we all can see how each of the people on the ship in the storm had a 1out of 10 chance of drawing the short straw.
Thats the facts....thats science...

thats how men of science look at the world...they see the "chance" is not just dumb-luck, but rather it comes down to the laws or probability.
Nothing about drawing straws is magic....

Just as nothing about the science of the study of Evolution is magic.
There are rules that govern the outcomes in drawing straws just as there are tons and tons of rules that govern evolution...


But....to the student of the Bible...."WE".....we get to know a little bit information that the man of science does not get.

and that makes all the difference in both how we read and understand the story of Jonah, and in our study of evolution.





what do we know?
We know that God was in the drawing of the straws....and because god was in control, there was a 100% "chance' that Jonah would pick the short straw.

We know this.....

We know that god did not just leave this up to random luck....

We know that when Jonah picked the short straw it was all part of god's eternal plan that was set in stone and fixed before the universe was created.

Nothing was left to chance.



But at the same time...if a man of science were watching the men on the ship draw straws, he would have seen no giant hand reaching down out of the sky to control the straws.
To the man of science observing, there would have been no sign at all that god did any controlling of the outcome in any way!

Thus....you can have something that looks to be total dumb luck....and at the same time have God in full control.
Both things are totally true....and do not contradict each other at all...



So the life in the universe can be here via evolution.....and God can be in full control.

and both ideas are totally 100% true....

[disciple]

The example of how we can have both "chance" and God in full control at the same time is shown us in the example of Jonah and the whale.


Remember that story?

The story is a great example of how the christian should understand the idea of "chance"

Please expound on that, I would like to hear more.

[alanmolstad]

and it because of this that I have now posted about above that Evolution and genesis walk hand-in-hand.

[alanmolstad]

Please expound on that, I would like to hear more.

Notice how I always back everything up I teach with scripture....

if you doubt anything I have said, just ask me for the verse.


be like the Bereans, open up your Bible to see if all that I have said is true?





However if you disagree with my conclusions, be ready to be asked for a verse...cuz I will be asking for bible support for anyone who disagrees with me

[alanmolstad]

Be like the Bereans
Open your Bible....quote scripture....read to see if what someone says is found there?

back-up your views with a verse .
ask others to do the same

[alanmolstad]

.......and learn the value of putting things in "paragraphs"

[disciple]

t



what do we know?
We know that God was in the drawing of the straws....and because god was in control, there was a 100% "chance' that Jonah would pick the short straw.

We know this.....

We know that god did not just leave this up to random luck....

We know that when Jonah picked the short straw it was all part of god's eternal plan that was set in stone and fixed before the universe was created.

Nothing was left to chance.




Alan your making my point for me, God had a purpose and a plan in creation. He had no need for random mutations, long periods of time, survival of the fittest and all the other things that define evolution.

[alanmolstad]

Alan your making my point for me, God had a purpose and a plan in creation. He had no need for random mutations, long periods of time, survival of the fittest and all the other things that define evolution.
You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?
after all this time you still cant find a single verse to support your views?

When you don't post a verse that supports your views, do you do that thinking I wont notice?
When you are clearly unable to counter my Scripture with your own, do you think I will overlook that fact?
That is a bit sad...
We are supposed to be ready "always" to give to every person a reason for our faith in things...

So far you seem to be totally unable to do that...so why should I listen to you at all?





And, I think you who missed my point....LOL

My point is that you can have evolution that follows the natural laws that are created by the Lord....
And at the same time you can have a story of Genesis that also talks about the very same events in earth history....and find that both works are true...and both works do not contradict each other....


Now if you disagree you better have a bible verse and not just your opinion...

[disciple]

You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?
after all this time you still cant find a single verse to support your views?

When you don't post a verse that supports your views, do you do that thinking I wont notice?
When you are clearly unable to counter my Scripture with your own, do you think I will overlook that fact?
That is a bit sad...
We are supposed to be ready "always" to give to every person a reason for our faith in things...

So far you seem to be totally unable to do that...so why should I listen to you at all?





And, I think you who missed my point....LOL

My point is that you can have evolution that follows the natural laws that are created by the Lord....
And at the same time you can have a story of Genesis that also talks about the very same events in earth history....and find that both works are true...and both works do not contradict each other....


Now if you disagree you better have a bible verse and not just your opinion...

Alan,

I think you are more interested in being right than being honest. The whole bible contradicts what you are saying and your
goading will not cause me to doubt the truth of God's word. I have posted scriptures and posed questions which you
ignore and refuse to answer.
“Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” Gen 2:7
This doesn’t sound like evolution. God could have chosen to create humans in any way He desired. However, Scripture records the particular way He did create—using both natural material (dust) and supernatural power to give humans a unique place in the universe. He put the breath of life in us not the nostrils of an ape.

[alanmolstad]

what is man made from?

What does the Bible say?

it says-that man is made from this earth.
The earth is the source.

We are a part of this earth that has come to life.

Its the same for all the animals like the great apes too!

They share this same source with humans.
All the animals also come from the same source, the earth.

This agrees with the source found in Evolution.




and...when you lookm at the vers you quoted..it says God " breathed " into man.

So your God has lungs?....like the Mormon god?
Do Christians teach that God has lips, and lungs and that God needs to breath to live?




Or.....

is the expression God "breathed " a symbol?

When we read that God "breathed" could it be said to be more a figure of speech?

perhaps a metaphor?




of course it is...

God does not have lips...or fingers, or lungs...God is Spirit.
So when we are talking about the way the bible talks about God,,,,ie like the wings of God, we dont mean that such things are to be taken as physical...for God is not a barn chicken!


Rather its intended to point us to something that we could never understand otherwise.

God created man...We are his handywork...and man has a spirit.



Nothing about that is against Evolution....its just a different way to talk about man.

[alanmolstad]

Alan,

and your
goading will not cause me to doubt the truth of God's word..

My goading is to get you to open up the Bible and read what Im pointing to , to see if what i have quoted is found in the text.


and so its not God's word I want you to call into question....I want you to doubt the teachings of the Young Earth Creationist...

They are the teachings we all should doubt...

[disciple]

what is man made from?

What does the Bible say?

it says-that man is made from this earth.
The earth is the source.

We are a part of this earth that has come to life.

Its the same for all the animals like the great apes too!

They share this same source with humans.
All the animals also come from the same source, the earth.

This agrees with the source found in Evolution.




and...when you lookm at the vers you quoted..it says God " breathed " into man.

So your God has lungs?....like the Mormon god?
Do Christians teach that God has lips, and lungs and that God needs to breath to live?




Or.....

is the expression God "breathed " a symbol?

When we read that God "breathed" could it be said to be more a figure of speech?

perhaps a metaphor?




of course it is...

God does not have lips...or fingers, or lungs...God is Spirit.
So when we are talking about the way the bible talks about God,,,,ie like the wings of God, we dont mean that such things are to be taken as physical...for God is not a barn chicken!


Rather its intended to point us to something that we could never understand otherwise.

God created man...We are his handywork...and man has a spirit.



Nothing about that is against Evolution....its just a different way to talk about man.



Alan,

Scripture records God speaking audibly to people in both the Old and New testaments, so I guess since God does not have lips or a tongue the bible is lying.
Gen 2:7 is clear, God created man fully human and then put life into him.

[MichaellS]

You know, as it is written:


“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6)

What then are they to do with it when they get it?


“Just say a simple yes or no, so that you will not sin and be condemned.” (I Cor 1:27)

If simplicity has lost her way from the conversation till she can't be found, that alone is a big one.

Thanks Disciple!

[alanmolstad]

Alan,

Scripture records God speaking audibly to people in both the Old and New testaments, so I guess since God does not have lips or a tongue the bible is lying.
Gen 2:7 is clear, God created man fully human and then put life into him.
Mormons believe God is a man on a distant world....
im sure the mormon god has lips, hair, bad breath, and boy parts for all the endless sex he has to make all the spirit-babies...

I think that idea is crazy..........very crazy

[MichaellS]

Mormons believe God is a man on a distant world....

I think that idea is crazy..........very crazy

Agreed. The text is clear God is not a man no matter what the arrangement.

[alanmolstad]

You know, as it is written:


“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6)

What then are they to do with it when they get it?


“Just say a simple yes or no, so that you will not sin and be condemned.” (I Cor 1:27)

If simplicity has lost her way from the conversation till she can't be found, that alone is a big one.

Thanks Disciple!



Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.







thats how you play the game kids....
You listen carefully, then open your bibles and put what you have heard to the test...

If what Im saying is not found in the Bible?..reject it.

But if everything i say is actually found in the bible and you still do not believe?..then you are against what the bible is teaching...and at war with God.

[alanmolstad]

Agreed. The text is clear God is not a man no matter what the arrangement.

thus this backs-up what Im saying..

That you can have the Genesis story tell us that God "breathed" into the man, and understand it as a metaphor that is actually talking about the fact that man is the result of God's direct handy work...that we are who we are because of god...

Nothing about that is against evolution.


Evolution is a natural law that god created...just as water, as rain, as snow...
all are things that god has created to be here...all reflect His thinking...his 'hands"

[alanmolstad]

God 'formed"the man out of the earth.

the very word "Adam" means "ground" of this earth....thats who we are....thats what we are named after..



thats what the Bible tells us....

Humans did not just 'pop" into the creation out of nothingness

God used things that already existed to 'form" humans.




The word "formed" means we are the result of 'work'......

[disciple]

thus this backs-up what Im saying..

That you can have the Genesis story tell us that God "breathed" into the man, and understand it as a metaphor that is actually talking about the fact that man is the result of God's direct handy work...that we are who we are because of god...

Nothing about that is against evolution.


Evolution is a natural law that god created...just as water, as rain, as snow...
all are things that god has created to be here...all reflect His thinking...his 'hands"

Alan,

Evolution cannot be a natural law, as it is at odds with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which is a proven, scientifically tested law
like the law of gravity, not a theory like evolution. At least be honest, evolution is a theory put forth by Darwin and nothing more.

[alanmolstad]

Humans were created by God....from this earth.

We are created on the 6th day...this is true.

But what is also true is that because the 7th Day has no ending yet in the bible we cant say for sure how long any day in genesis lasts for us....

[alanmolstad]

Alan,

Evolution cannot be a natural law, as it is at odds with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which is a proven, scientifically tested law
like the law of gravity, not a theory like evolution. At least be honest, evolution is a theory put forth by Darwin and nothing more.
somewhere along the line,,,I simply have not gotten it across to people here, that "Alan does not defend evolution!"




Im not sure how else to post that fact?

Would Bigger letters help? Alan does not defend evolution!"




Im a Bible student...the bible i know...the Bible i quote in all my posts...the bible I can deal with.

thats also why no one dares ask me Bible type questions...cuz they know im up to speed on the bible....LOL

[MichaellS]

You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?
after all this time you still cant find a single verse to support your views?

We are supposed to be ready "always" to give to every person a reason for our faith in things...

Member Jude has brought up a couple of times the likelihood of evolution being Demonic. After a certain extent in this hypothesis is undertaken, committed to, meditated upon, yes, I can see why the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle:


“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Well, there is another verse. With this verse in mind, how do you sanitize lofty evolution to the obedience of Christ when it isn’t concerned with what the Apostles were taking about:


“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Woe, , Bang, another verse to sink that ship of Gospel contention.

[alanmolstad]

kids at home:

watch how they never ask me,,,"Where does it say that in the bible?"

watch how they never want to talk about the Bible verses I use....never..




they dont dare...

[MichaellS]

I just supplied a comment w/verses. Where is my comment?

[alanmolstad]

post it again,,,,,

[alanmolstad]

We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)
This by the way is a verse defending my action in challenging the evil teachings of the YEc movement...

Im instructed to go forward!~....and you know i will...LOL

want to disagree with me?...fine...

Pick up the story of genesis that im quoting all the time and see if what im saying there is true?




Here is your first question...."What does it say at genesis 1:1 that god created first "in the beginning"?"



Notice Im not asking 'what did it mean?"
Im just asking what does it "say?"

[alanmolstad]

and when you answer that.....I have your next question ready for you to chew on....

[MichaellS]

Context is trashed Alan. You first.

[alanmolstad]

Where did you get that one verse I used? dont you know that answer?

You use a verse you cant find now or something?...LOL

[alanmolstad]

You next question....

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Now this term "heavens" has many meanings in different context in the Bible.

I was just wondering, could the term "Heavens" be understood to ever be talking about the entire canopy of stars in the night sky?

[disciple]

somewhere along the line,,,I simply have not gotten it across to people here, that "Alan does not defend evolution!"




Im not sure how else to post that fact?

Would Bigger letters help? Alan does not defend evolution!"




Im a Bible student...the bible i know...the Bible i quote in all my posts...the bible I can deal with.

thats also why no one dares ask me Bible type questions...cuz they know im up to speed on the bible....LOL

Alan,

you just said evolution is a natural law, any scientist will tell you it is not a natural law. Were you mistaken?
Why won't you admit that it is a theory? Too prideful or just misinformed.

[MichaellS]

Simplicity, remember? Evolution is raised squarely counter to the Apostle's tradition of permissiveness.

[alanmolstad]

3rd Question for you to answer:

In the King James Bible we have the added words always placed within brackets []
http://genius.com/Holy-bible-kjv-genesis-1-annotated

when you look at Genesis 1:16 in the king James, what words appear in brackets [ ] to show us they were added?

[alanmolstad]

Simplicity, remember? Evolution is raised squarely counter to the Apostle's tradition of permissiveness.

you know...unless you want to take this conversation a bit more serious and try to have a scripture to back up things, Im not even going to read your comments any more..

I have asked you over and over to back up anything you believe about genesis with the text and you have FAILED to do that.


you can think about that for a while.....

[alanmolstad]

Alan,

you just said evolution is a natural law, any scientist will tell you it is not a natural law. Were you mistaken?
Why won't you admit that it is a theory? Too prideful or just misinformed.
again you hope I dont notice you got no scripture again?......how sad

[MichaellS]

Sound thinkers here know when you couple those two verse

II Cor 10:5

I Cor 2:2

The message is clear straight from the Apostles

Barred is any other message unrelated to Christ, including un-realated high-thought.

[alanmolstad]

3rd Question for you to answer:

In the King James Bible we have the added words always placed within brackets []
http://genius.com/Holy-bible-kjv-genesis-1-annotated

when you look at Genesis 1:16 in the king James, what words appear in brackets [ ] to show us they were added?
oh this is a tricky question,,,someone might actually need to look at what the bible says to answer it?

Or ......they can just go back to posting about how "Evolution is written by the Boogey Man under my bed" and hope I dont catch them changing the topic again... :)

[alanmolstad]

Sound thinkers here know when you couple those two verse

II Cor 10:5

I Cor 2:2

The message is clear straight from the Apostles

Barred is any other message unrelated to Christ, including un-realated high-thought.

Let me know when you get to talking about Genesis...I will pay attention to that post....

[disciple]

again you hope I dont notice you got no scripture again?......how sad

Come on Alan, why would I need a scripture to point out your error about evolution being a natural law?

[MichaellS]

Once again, pride over warning.

[alanmolstad]

so........

I guess that because no one is able to open a Bible around here, and answer a few questions about what it says in the text, Im going to have to now go over my questions for you guys, and show you what the Bible is saying....



lets start with the first question-

[alanmolstad]

Here is your first question...."What does it say at genesis 1:1 that god created first "in the beginning"?"

[alanmolstad]

and.....here is the answer:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.



The very first thing the bible lists that god created in the beginning at Genesis 1:1 is 'the heavens"

[disciple]

Oh well another attempt at reasonable discussion disregarded.

[alanmolstad]

"The heavens",,,,is the correct answer.

Oh i know the YEc teachers dont like that answer...they dont like it one bit!

I say, "tough darts" ....."deal with it"



The bible says that the heavens was the first thing God created in the beginning, and so thats what i believe.

[alanmolstad]

Oh well another attempt at reasonable discussion disregarded.

over and over i ask people to open their Bible and see if the verse im quoting is true?


You dont want to do that it seems?....


fine..You can lead a horse to water, but you cant get them to read the book of genesis it seems....



If you dont got a verse?...if you dont have a question abut a verse i used?...then dont ask me to pay any attention to you...I mean, why should I?

[alanmolstad]

I will now move on to the next question you guys failed to answer....

[alanmolstad]

You next question....

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

Now this term "heavens" has many meanings in different context in the Bible.

I was just wondering, could the term "Heavens" be understood to ever be talking about the entire canopy of stars in the night sky?

[alanmolstad]

and the answer is "yes"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_151.cfm



At Genesis 1:1 when we read the word "Heavens" it is totally fine to understand that as talking about all the stars...(and by the way, our own sun is a star)

[alanmolstad]

so what we have now just done, is prove that the bible teaches that god made stars like our own sun as the first things he created in the beginning...



next question:

[alanmolstad]

3rd Question for you to answer:

In the King James Bible we have the added words always placed within brackets []
http://genius.com/Holy-bible-kjv-genesis-1-annotated

when you look at Genesis 1:16 in the king James, what words appear in brackets [ ] to show us they were added?

[alanmolstad]

Genesis 1:16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.


so the answer to the 3rd question you guys FAILED to answer is "he made"

so we know that the words "He made" have been added and are not supported by the Hebrew....

Lets just not add them one time and read the verse to see if it actually works better without the added words?


" And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night the stars also.

Suddenly we see that the added words were totally unnecessary!

We see now what the writer was talking about, and its so simple!!!!!

all the verse is saying is that the lesser light would rule over the night and the stars....."also"
thats word "also" points us back to the to the other thing the lesser light got to rule over....ie 'the night".




so the wording and context of the 4th day is simply about the change in the "AMOUNT" of light seen on the earth....some of the light is said to be "greater" and some is said to be "lesser"

greater and lesser are terms that describe the AMOUNT of light....not their source.

[alanmolstad]

so on the 4th day of genesis we do not see the creation of the sun, moon and stars at all!!!

all we see is a change in the 'amount" of light seen on the earth....and that is why the Bible does not say that the "sun" or the "moon" was created on the 4th day!




When does the bible tell us when the sun and the moon and all the stars and all the other things like Black holes,and dust clouds and all the things in deep space were created?........Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God created the Heavens (all stars, all worlds, and our sun too)and the earth"

[alanmolstad]

you may now go back to sending messages to each other.....

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhCW_qxA2Tw&list=TL7HJAoVwwt9kwODA0MjAxNg

[alanmolstad]

notice what he says at the 0:55 point of the video?????

so it seems that I am not the only one within the Christian Church that knows how to open a bible and read Genesis?

If only I could get a few guys around here to follow this example....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhCW_qxA2Tw&list=TL7HJAoVwwt9kwODA0MjAxNg

[jude1:3]

But what is also true is that because the 7th Day has no ending yet in the bible we cant say for sure how long any day in genesis lasts for us....


*The 7th day has already p***ed. In fact many thousands of years have already p***ed.




You wrote :



We find no anti-evolution arguments in the genesis text.

and



Nor should we think less that evolution because it cant show us God.





*But then you said this :


Alan does not defend evolution!"




*You Are Defending Evolution Alan. Man Didn't Evolve. He was created in the image of God. Man didn't evolve from primates or anything else like evolution claims. He was made in the image of God.

[jude1:3]

This might help:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWAUnQN1HQ&nohtml5=False

[jude1:3]

And This:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUHNz6bUSIU

[alanmolstad]

*The 7th day has already p***ed. In fact many thousands of years have already p***ed.



.Unless you can point to a verse that shows it has ended (just as you and I can see very clearly that the first 6 days have ended), dont bother telling me that the 7th day ended cuz you are just making that stuff up!

Show me a verse that says, "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"....

Show that verse to me and you got a case...

But if you cant!
you got nothing to back that up !....

Nothing but junk you had to make up.




I dont make stuff up.
You know why I dont make stuff up?...I DONT NEED TO!
The Bible already supports everything I teach.....everything!

[alanmolstad]

*You Are Defending Evolution Alan..


nope .


trust me, when I start defending evolution, YOU are going to notice the difference.

[jude1:3]

Unless you can point to a verse that shows it has ended (just as you and I can see very clearly that the first 6 days have ended), dont bother telling me that the 7th day ended cuz you are just making that stuff up!

Show me a verse that says, "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"....

Show that verse to me and you got a case...

But if you cant!
you got nothing to back that up !....

Nothing but junk you had to make up.




I dont make stuff up.
You know why I dont make stuff up?...I DONT NEED TO!
The Bible already supports everything I teach.....everything!




Genesis 5:9-11

Enosh lived Ninety Years, and begot Cainan. After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen Years, and had sons and daughters. So all the Days of Enosh were nine hundred and five Years and he Died.




So we can see that Years have p***ed since creation. Thousands of Years have p***ed since Creation.

Wake Up Alan you are spouting Nonsense.

[jude1:3]

Macroevolution is Garbage Alan. We didn't Evolve. We were Created by God.

[alanmolstad]

Genesis 5:9-11

Enosh lived Ninety Years, and begot Cainan. After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen Years, and had sons and daughters. So all the Days of Enosh were nine hundred and five Years and he Died.




So we can see that Years have p***ed since creation. Thousands of Years have p***ed since Creation.

Wake Up Alan you are spouting Nonsense.No ending to the 7th day there....

try again...Im sure you can find it ...(if its there)





remember what you are looking for is the pattern of endings the same writer used for all 6 of the first dys...
"and there was evening and morning, the 7thday"




if you can find that in any of the Bible....or any verse that teaches that the 7th day of creation rest has ended, then you got a case!



But no verse = no case.

I dont add to the text so you dont get to add to the text too....thems the rules

[alanmolstad]

Macroevolution is Garbage Alan. We didn't Evolve. We were Created by God.again...I dont defend evolution....

Im just saying that evolution and genesis trace back all life to the same single point...the same source

[jude1:3]

No ending to the 7th day there....

try again...Im sure you can find it ...(if its there)





remember what you are looking for is the pattern of endings the same writer used for all 6 of the first dys...
"and there was evening and morning, the 7thday"




if you can find that in any of the Bible....or any verse that teaches that the 7th day of creation rest has ended, then you got a case!



But no verse = no case.

I dont add to the text so you dont get to add to the text too....thems the rules






I Gave You A Verse. Years Have P***ed. The Creation Week Has P***ed.

[alanmolstad]

You postd avideo showing Ken Ham.....



you do know I attended his 8-week cl*** on ORIGINS right?.....that I have heard all his teachings?....that I know all what he has to say?...that nothing that is in your video is new to me?....


8 weeks I sat and listened to him personally......so you really think showing me a video of him now is going to help your argument?

[jude1:3]

*Your whole argument of the 7th day of Creation not p***ing yet Is Just Plain Ridiculous and Wrong.

[alanmolstad]

*Your whole argument of the 7th day of Creation not p***ing yet Is Just Plain Ridiculous and Wrong.thats just your own opinion...

show me a verse that clearly teaches the 7th day has ended?>>>

why is that so hard for you to do????

[alanmolstad]

so you can tell me that the 7th day has ended until you are blue in the face.....but unless you can show me a verse that clearly says that, you are going to fail.


it dont matter what you think the bible teaches...Im only interested in what you can prove.

[alanmolstad]

so on the issue of an ending to the 7th day....

No verse = no case...

no case = FAIL!



I dont add to the Bible,,,,I dont need to.
the Bible as written supports all I teach.
The YEC people have to add stuff to the Bible all the time to make it agree with what they want it to say.

[jude1:3]

so you can tell me that the 7th day has ended until you are blue in the face.....but unless you can show me a verse that clearly says that, you are going to fail.


it dont matter what you think the bible teaches...Im only interested in what you can prove.



I showed you a verse that showed Years p***ing by, Not just Days. Wake Up .

[alanmolstad]

see kids...this is the difference between what the Bible says, and what the YEC teachers believe.

The Bible has no ending to the 7th day.

The YEC need to add an ending , or else their whole house of cards falls to the ground....

[jude1:3]

so on the issue of an ending to the 7th day....

No verse = no case...

no case = FAIL!




I gave you a verse, but you don't want to use common sense and acknowledge the fact that Years Have p***ed.

[jude1:3]

Edit Post Error

[alanmolstad]

so because I dont add to the word of God, (I dont have to) I can now list some of the things that the Bible does show us in Genesis:


I will now list a few things.....

[alanmolstad]

God created the stars like our sun first, in the beginning.

[alanmolstad]

Lets list what the bible does teach...what we can prove::



the earth was created first as a dead and dry world...

[alanmolstad]

The Lord created the stars first.

stars like our sun

[alanmolstad]

water came forth from underground, and covered the whole land....that is where the water for the verse that talks about "the deep" came from.



The waters were said to be in 'darkness" and the reason for this is talked about in the Bible....it was very thick clouds that caused the water to be in darkness....

[jude1:3]

Years have p***ed since the first week of Creation.

Evolution is Not True.

Evolution is a Demonic Lie.

You should Repent from Pushing This Macroevolution Deception.

[alanmolstad]

all animal life can be traced back to a single source in the bible

[alanmolstad]

You should Repent from Pushing This Macroevolution Deception.again, Im not interested in your "personal" views...only in things you an point to with a verse..

No verse = no case

No case, = you FAIL

[alanmolstad]

Humans in the Bible can be traced back to the very same common source for us, that the bible also will trace back all animal life to.

we have this in common with all the animals...our final source....where we all "return" to.

[jude1:3]

again, Im not interested in your "personal" views...only in things you an point to with a verse..

No verse = no case

No case, = you FAIL





Days have p***ed. Common Sense tells you that Days, and Months and Years Have P***ed since Creation Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Days have p***ed. Common Sense tells you that Days, and Months and Years Have P***ed since Creation Alan.see it yet?

You need to add an ending...even if you clearly looked and cant find one.


Well thats fine for the YEC teachers.,,,they get to add all kinds of stuff, they get to invent all kinds of ideas and concepts that are not in the bible...Thats what they do"
Thats what YEC is built on.

The foundation of all the Young earth Creation teachings is things that were invented....twisted into the Text...and cant actually be found there.

the YEC teachers need an ending to the 7th day.
They clearly see that the writer of Genesis added very sharp/clear endings to the first 6 days, and try as they might they cant find any hint in the Bible that the 7th day has ended yet...so that add it to the bible.


I cant do that...


Im not allowed to add things to the Bible.


There is a verse in the Book of revelation that bans me from adding words to the Bible.



and because I believe the Bible 100%, that also means that I cant break the command in Revelation to make my views truer in Genesis.




but like I said, the YEC have no bones about adding words to the Bible.

[jude1:3]

This is so frustrating. I already gave you a verse but you don't want to listen.

Your whole "The 7th day of Creation hasn't p***ed yet" argument is just a cleverly devised Heretical Lie from Hell. Repent.



242

[alanmolstad]

This is so frustrating. I already gave you a verse but you don't want to listen.



242I dont listen to things that need to be added to the bible.



and do you really think I pay attention to your personal advice?.....

[alanmolstad]

there are 6 days in genesis that have very clear endings.

I can prove each of the 6 days has ended, not by saying silly things like, "Oh it must have ended cuz its later right?"...
I dont have to try to justify an ending because I can point to a verse that clearly teaches that each of the first 6 days has in fact, ENDED!


but of the 7th day?

no ending.

look allover the bible and try to find me a verse that "TEACHES" that the 7th day has ended the same way the bible TEACHES the first 6days ended!..........its not there.


its not in the bible...


Its just a dreamed up teaching of the YEc people.

[alanmolstad]

so you want me to listen to you, then stop bringing up things you had to add to the Bible!








Im never going to listen to you go on and on about an ending to the 7th day unless you got a clear verse that teaches it.....
Go find it.....

[alanmolstad]

perhaps Ken Ham has a book, website, or video that might help you.......LOL






(remember, 8-week cl***,got his books, listen to his tapes,watched his videos, even attended a 4th of July party with him and his family)

[jude1:3]

Genesis 5:9-11

Enosh lived Ninety Years, and begot Cainan. After he begot Cainan, Enosh lived eight hundred and fifteen Years, and had sons and daughters. So all the **Days** of Enosh were nine hundred and five Years and he Died.



*Alan you have 3 other Christians trying to reason with you but you refuse to listen and instead would rather champion a Heretical Lie designed to destroy the faith of young people.

[alanmolstad]

Genesis 5:9-11




*Alan you have 3 other Christians trying to reason with you but you refuse to listen and instead would rather champion a Heretical Lie designed to destroy the faith of young people.
You just are not listening at all it seems?

I dont know how more clear I can be in regards to my not ever in a million, billion years ever going to listen to 2 things.....

#1- teachings that have to be added to the text (an ending to the 7th day)

and


#2 your personal advice.





If I posted these this fact a few more times, over and over, would that convince you?

How about if I used bigger printing?





so showing me that this or that a Bible guy lived a zillion years does not mean squat to me.

You have to find a verse that says, "and there was evening, and there was morning, the 7th day"

find that verse and you got a case.

No verse=no case
no case= fail

[jude1:3]

In your mind a day doesn't really mean a day.

You think that since the text in Genesis doesn't specifically state "and there was evening, and there was morning, the 7th day" that that means the 7th day never ended.



Think logically for a moment and realize how ridiculous this reasoning is Alan.

[jude1:3]

So all the DAYS of Enosh were nine hundred and five Years and he Died.



Genesis 5:11

[alanmolstad]

In your mind a day doesn't really mean a day.

You think that since the text in Genesis doesn't specifically state "and there was evening, and there was morning, the 7th day" that that means the 7th day never ended.



Think logically for a moment and realize how ridiculous this reasoning is Alan.


Im saying only what the Bible says...and Im not needing to add to the Bible.


I dont have to add an ending that you cant find...

Trust me...I have been asking people to post any verse that teaches that the 7th day ended for 20 years, and so far....what do they got?.....zip?, zero?

Nothing!

They got nothing!

Not a single person has been able to find a verse in the Bible that clearly teaches that the 7th day ended.





and trust me....people have wanted to find that verse so bad they could taste it....


its just not in the bible.

thats why people try to post other ****, other ways, because they simply cant find a verse in the Bible that clearly teaches what they wished it would say.


But at Revelation 22 it warns the YEC people not to add to the text.
I listen to the bible, the YEC teachers dont.......its that simple.

[alanmolstad]

So all the DAYS of Enosh were nine hundred and five Years and he Died.



Genesis 5:11You struggle so....LOL


nope,,,you have to find a verse that says just the same as for the other 6 days...

"and there was evening and there was morning, the 7th day"


You find that verse yet?


perhaps if you watched a ken ham video it might help?

How about reading on a YEC website, perhaps they got the verse there?

I have an old Magic 8-Ball left over from when I was a kid, would you like to ask it where that verse is?


You find the verse and you got a case..

no verse = no case
No case = Fail!

[alanmolstad]

what verse clearly tells us that 1st day is ended already?.....


Genesis 1:5 And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

[alanmolstad]

what verse clearly tells us that 2nd day is ended already?.....
Genesis 1:8 And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

[alanmolstad]

how about the 3rd day?


is there a verse in the bible that makes it very clear that the 3rd day has ended already?...

[alanmolstad]

Gen 1:13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

[alanmolstad]

and the 4th?
the 5th?
the 6th?

[alanmolstad]

is there a very clear ending verse for the 4th day, just like there was for the 1st and the 2nd and the 3rd?.....yes.


is there any way to miss this verse?...no.

do we have to '***ume"the 4th day has ended or can we know its ending by looking at a verse that is in the same pattern used to teach the other days have ended?....we dont have to guess or ***ume anything.





what about the 5th day?________

[alanmolstad]

And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

[alanmolstad]

so for each of the first 6 days of the creation week there are very clear endings given to us by the writer of genesis?....yes

Each days ends the very same way?......yes


No changes?......nope


Every day ends the same way with the same wordings?.....yes


So its a clear pattern that is being followed by the writer of genesis to make sure we understand when each day ended?....yes, that is very clear to the reader

[alanmolstad]

so we have very clear proof that each of the 6 days have endings?.....yes.



and the 7th day has no ending in the story?......nope

and there is no verse in the Genesis story that says the same wording that was used for the 6 days to describe the ending of the 7th day?......nope


is there a verse in the Old test that says "and there was evening and morning the 7th day"?.........no



and there is no such wording in the whole of the Bible about the 7th day ending?.....no

[alanmolstad]

So this very carefull pattern that is used by the writer of Genesis to inform us that the first 6 days have already ended, was not used to talk about the 7th day?......that is true.

So while we have clear endings for 6 days, there is no such carefull ending for the 7th day?.....that is true



and there is no way to thus prove the 7th day has ended, if you are looking for the same pattern used for the first 6 days?....that is true, there is no such listed ending to the 7th day at any point in the Bible.





well.....is there any verse in the Bible that says God has "finished" he 7th day of rest?.......no


So God is still resting from his work of creation?.....yes




But one day the Bible does say god shall return to more work of creation?.....yes!


so the bible does teach that the 7th day of the creation rest does end in the future?.....yes



so the 7th day is not forever?.....no, the 7th day will end in the future according to the scriptures that speak of a new heaven and a new earth.




so we are in the 7th day?......yes

[alanmolstad]

So this very carefull pattern that is used by the writer of Genesis to inform us that the first 6 days have already ended, was not used to talk about the 7th day?......that is true.

So while we have clear endings for 6 days, there is no such carefull ending for the 7th day?.....that is true



and there is no way to thus prove the 7th day has ended, if you are looking for the same pattern used for the first 6 days?....that is true, there is no such listed ending to the 7th day at any point in the Bible.





well.....is there any verse in the Bible that says God has "finished" he 7th day of rest?.......no


So God is still resting from his work of creation?.....yes




But one day the Bible does say god shall return to more work of creation?.....yes!


so the bible does teach that the 7th day of the creation rest does end in the future?.....yes



so the 7th day is not forever?.....no, the 7th day will end in the future according to the scriptures that speak of a new heaven and a new earth.




so we are in the 7th day?......yes

[alanmolstad]

so we are in the 7th day?......yes



that's all Im saying....

[jude1:3]

Spamming of Nonsense Posts doesn't make your opinions correct. It just makes your post count higher.

[alanmolstad]

that's all Im saying....


so...in the future the 7th day will have an"evening and morning, the 7th day"?.......I think so.....based on the pattern the Bible makes use of, i would expect that when the ending to the 7th day has arrived to then see it appear in the word of god in the same wording as found in genesis.


soone day you expect a Bible will have "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"?.....yes...in keeping with the Bible's own way of wording when days of creation end...

[jude1:3]

You are promoting Heresy Alan.

The Bible says that Days, Months and Years have All P***ed since creation.

That's what the Text Says.

[alanmolstad]

You are promoting Heresy Alan.

s.that junk is just your personal opinion,,,a moot point with me...
Do you really think i care about your personal opinions?....



im only interested in the Bible verse that you seem unable to find for me....

[alanmolstad]

so the word "day" can mean an unlimited amount of time?.....yes



and it can mean an unlimited/unknown amount of time in the story of genesis?......Yes

[alanmolstad]

But what about the YEC teachers that teach their students that the word "day' in genesis always must mean just 24 hours?.......they lie.

[alanmolstad]

so the YEC teachers that force an ending to the 7th day of Genesis are guilty of adding to the Word of God, as warned about in the book of Revelation?.........YES!!!!

[alanmolstad]

what was the only question you asked Mr Ken ham during your 8-week origins Bible cl***?.........I asked Ken at one point what was the first thing the Bible lists God created "In the beginning"?




what does the bible say is the first thing god created?.....the heavens




and the term "heavens" is the correct word to describe all the stars and our own sun?........yes, it is the single best word the writer on genesis could use to discribe the whole universe of stars and our own sun too.

[alanmolstad]

In the story of genesis, the order of the rise of lifeis said to be by some people to be different than what evolution teaches?......yes that is true


and so it may be true that the bible lists the order of life in a way that is different than what modern evolution lists the order of life?......Im not sure what current evolution teachers have as a listing in order, but the listing of the order in genesis is a moot point




the listing in genesis of the order of life is a moot point?.....yes



why can that be?......the answer is to remember that just because the bible talks about things happening in the land on one day does not mean that other things were not also happening at the same time , and in other places...



So what is listed in the bible is just what the writer wanted to list?...yes, it dos not mean for a second that the things listed were the only things going on at the time...

[alanmolstad]

so the listed order of life in genesis is a "moot point"?.....yes, in the context of thinking thats all that was going on its a moot point.


give me an example from the text to show what you mean?.....yes, just look at genesis 1; 11, 12 and 13 for example of what im saying.
In that section of the story we are reading about things happening on the land.
But this does not mean that nothing else was happening on the land too....
The verse only lists what the writer wanted to list there....we cant think that 'thats all there was going on"



so when at genesis 1:11 it talks about things going on on the land, other things could also be going on?....yes...its not meant to be the full, complete list.


other things could be going on on the land?.....yes


and in the water?.....yes


and in the heavens?......yes

[jude1:3]

Evolution and genesis walk hand-in-hand.

Nothing about that is against Evolution...

Evolution is a natural law that god created..

But what is also true is that because the 7th Day has no ending yet in the bible

Alan does not defend evolution!

then dont ask me to pay any attention to you...I mean, why should I?

I dont make stuff up.
You know why I dont make stuff up?...I DONT NEED TO!
The Bible already supports everything I teach.....everything!


so we are in the 7th day?......yes that's all Im saying....




243




Genesis 5:11

So all the DAYS of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.

[alanmolstad]

243




Genesis 5:11

So all the DAYS of Enosh were nine hundred and five years; and he died.



So in Genesis the word "Day"can have an unknown amount of time it is talking about?.....Yes, many times we see the word "day"listed and we are not sure how long of time we are dealing with... It's kinda like saying to my kids, "Well back in my DAY things were different"....My use of the word "DAY" is singular its true,but Im not saying that things were different for just 24 hours...LOL :)


or like when the Bible talks about the "day of the Lord"... or "In that day..."..we are not talking about 24 hrs and then things go back to the way they were.

or like when a store says its open 6 "days"a week, we are not to understand it will only be open for the next 6 24 hour days, and then close forever...:)


so as we see, there is nothing in the Bible, in the story of genesis, or in real life that says the word "day" means only 24 hours....

[alanmolstad]

so we can read that Enoch lived for years, and yet all this took place on the same Genesis 7th "day"?....yes...

[alanmolstad]

so it does not matter what person the YEC might try to list as having lived after the 6th day?......nope, it don't matter who they list, or how many people that they can name that lived after the 6th day..
| In fact, if they wanted to they can even list myself, for I was born after the 6th day too!....



So it does not matter a hoot because we are all still born, live for years, and die during the Genesis 7th Day ?.....yes,

[MichaellS]

Over and over and over you keep asking for a verse in Genesis. Sorry little one, the party actually ended long ago, but don’t stop the promotion, you are we see enjoying yourself simply too much. Unless that is you can bring yourself to see things differently?!?!

Since you now don’t want to read any more of my comments, let me keep this as concise a Christian declaration that uniformly separates evolution from Christianity as possible. You see, we as Christians don’t want to be thought uncharitable when hearing the views of others, whether they bring Christian content or not.

So then, that is the question isn’t it, which all the brethren have answered for those who truly are concerned,

Is Evolution Christian or non-Christian?

I too have given our friend Alan half the answer that should have been enough to stop a whole herd of Bible irregulars with a thousand counterfeits. But not Alan.


I have asked you over and over to back up anything you believe about genesis with the text and you have FAILED to do that.

Let me know when you get to talking about Genesis...I will pay attention to that post.

Okay then, connecting the Apostle’s opposition to Genesis. Is that what you want? If I provide that, will you stop leading the people astray as though evolution is something considered to be “Christian”?

Let me provide the reader that which deals with this in no uncertain terms. But first we need to repair all of the broken context so we can easily see just how ungodly it is. In other words, does it belong in a Christian church? Most definitely not, and here also is why.


You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?

Patience my friend, patience. Here, let’s review, collect, and close the question, shall we?

As I said, the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle,


“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Now, couple this verse with another verse so we can clearly see the parameters of “thought”,


“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Now then here is Alan’s concern,


Let me know when you get to talking about Genesis...I will pay attention to that post.

Okay then, but keep in mind who we are talking about here, this is about Christians who want to be known for using the word of God in faith, , “For all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23)

Now then, where does the Apostle’s concern lay claim to Genesis?

II Timothy 3:16, “All scripture”

But what does this all mean to the painfully simple-minded individual out there? Let’s boil it all down for him shall we?

As the Apostle Paul did say in a number of ways, we are to keep his very conduct before us while we all by the help of His Spirit, try to follow Christ. This is shown in a number of scriptures.

Now comes a strong-man of thought – Evolution. What would the Apostles have done with evolution?

They would have first identified it,

Ripe of unrelated conjecture to Christ.

Then they would act without delay, remember? For they were concerned for “redeeming the time”


They would have destroyed it (II Corinthians 10:5)

But how much of it?


All, all “Christ and him crucified” (I Corinthians 2:2)

But how much of the Bible should v2 lay claim to?


All. (II Timothy 3:16)

Well, there you have it. Now the ball is in your court to decide as a Christian.

• Renounce your obedience to Christ and continue this promotional show, or,

• Commence repentance immediately as fellow member Jude informed us.

Of which all of us would be elated over to hear of without exception. Don't delay!

Mike.
.

[alanmolstad]

So in Genesis the word "Day"can have an unknown amount of time it is talking about?.....Yes, many times we see the word "day"listed and we are not sure how long of time we are dealing with... It's kinda like saying to my kids, "Well back in my DAY things were different"....My use of the word "DAY" is singular its true,but Im not saying that things were different for just 24 hours...LOL :)


or like when the Bible talks about the "day of the Lord"... or "In that day..."..we are not talking about 24 hrs and then things go back to the way they were.

or like when a store says its open 6 "days"a week, we are not to understand it will only be open for the next 6 24 hour days, and then close forever...:)


so as we see, there is nothing in the Bible, in the story of genesis, or in real life that says the word "day" means only 24 hours....








the issue of the "days"of Genesis is where a lot of Bible students that get sucked into the teachings of the YEC movement make their biggest errors.

in many of the YEC textbooks they make it seem to their followers that the Hebrew word for "day" always means 24 hours.
They make it seem that this is a hard and fast rule...
And because most YEC students are so trusting, they get taken back when they later discover that the Hebrew is not like they were informed.

The word "day"when even in singular, can have a meaning in context that is talking about an unknown, or even unlimited amount of time.

[alanmolstad]

so for each of the first 6 days of the creation week there are very clear endings given to us by the writer of genesis?....yes

Each days ends the very same way?......yes


No changes?......nope


Every day ends the same way with the same wordings?.....yes


So its a clear pattern that is being followed by the writer of genesis to make sure we understand when each day ended?....yes, that is very clear to the reader

[alanmolstad]

so we have very clear proof that each of the 6 days have endings?.....yes.



and the 7th day has no ending in the story?......nope

and there is no verse in the Genesis story that says the same wording that was used for the 6 days to describe the ending of the 7th day?......nope


is there a verse in the Old test that says "and there was evening and morning the 7th day"?.........no



and there is no such wording in the whole of the Bible about the 7th day ending?.....no

[alanmolstad]

So this very careful pattern that is used by the writer of Genesis to inform us that the first 6 days have already ended, was not used to talk about the 7th day?......that is true.

So while we have clear endings for 6 days, there is no such careful ending for the 7th day?.....that is true



and there is no way to thus prove the 7th day has ended, if you are looking for the same pattern used for the first 6 days?....that is true, there is no such listed ending to the 7th day at any point in the Bible.





well.....is there any verse in the Bible that says God has "finished" he 7th day of rest?.......no


So God is still resting from his work of creation?.....yes




But one day the Bible does say god shall return to more work of creation?.....yes!


so the bible does teach that the 7th day of the creation rest does end in the future?.....yes



so the 7th day is not forever?.....no, the 7th day will end in the future according to the scriptures that speak of a new heaven and a new earth.




so we are in the 7th day?......yes

[alanmolstad]

so for each of the first 6 days of the creation week there are very clear endings given to us by the writer of genesis?....yes

Each days ends the very same way?......yes


No changes?......nope


Every day ends the same way with the same wordings?.....yes


So its a clear pattern that is being followed by the writer of genesis to make sure we understand when each day ended?....yes, that is very clear to the reader

[alanmolstad]

so...in the future the 7th day will have an"evening and morning, the 7th day"?.......It's just a guess, but I think so.....based on the pattern the Bible makes use of, i would expect that when the ending to the 7th day has arrived to then see it appear in the word of god in the same wording as found in genesis.


so one day you expect a Bible will have "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"?.....yes...in keeping with the Bible's own way of wording when days of creation end..
While there is not clear verse in the Bible that teaches this, we do have to remember that the writer of Genesis has made use of a very hard to miss pattern, and that with the 7th day we see that pattern "interrupted">...and we also have to keep in mind that near the time when the lord returns to his work of creation, the writer of the book of Genesis is said to return to the earth.

Moses is said in the Bible to return to life ?......yes. its found in the Book of revelation at the end time that Moses will return...

[alanmolstad]

so you expect one day the Bible will read, "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"?......Yes, it could be expected that Moses will add that addition to his own written work of the Genesis story by placing an ending to the 7th day when an ending finally happens...You have to also remember, that when an ending to the 7th day finally happens, the only person really that should record that into the text of the Bible, is the same person who wrote about the endings to the other 6 days....and that is Moses.,,,

[jude1:3]

Alan why do you reply to your Own posts ?

Why won't you engage with the other Christian posters ?

[MichaellS]

Alan why do you reply to your Own posts ?

Why won't you engage with the other Christian posters ?

Very perceptive for you to ask, , because the Holy Spirit is in the process of being dealt with here.

I surmise the force of necessity is now in the process of delivering a certain amount of wrath for mis-handling His word. This translates as low-level misery or discomfort.


“For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all, , people who, , suppress the truth” (Romans 1:18)

It is perceptive for you to ask because he has decided to give some concession to that necessity by not wanting to offend the Spirit, simply because he has scaled back from corresponding to His messaging through His children - us.

But what I think had him ponder so long recently is he was left with too much doubt of our support of him both in prayer and sincerity, and instead of relinquishing all towards freefall, he has resumed the only virtuous act left for his involvement in this issue - helping others.

So he has decided to mix the two and take the heat, but I’m sure everyone here sees that he is terribly wrong to trifle with the Spirit’s call, not to mention our support of him.

Lest while in this mix, and through this season of working to free himself from this discomfort he forgets the incredibly high-stake here in what he is doing, ,

All of the above is now off the board as far as he is concerned, the only reason he is here now is to continue that “help” which he foolishly forgets is extrapolated “sin” as I explained in this link 128 (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814).

Though it is true, we can’t attempt to ease your discomfort (that is done by turning), do know we love you.

We are praying for you Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Why won't you engage with the other Christian posters ?
If you want to have a conversation with me, here is what you might do-


Above you will see a bunch of my posts where I have gone over a bunch of things that are true in the Bible concerning Genesis.

If you read something and have a doubt about it, and would like to see where I get that teaching in the Bible?...ask me to supply you with the Bible verse that supports what Im saying.

and then, go open your Bible and see if the Scripture I gave you is saying what I claim?

[alanmolstad]

a new guest asks if I mind answering questions about what Im saying in a Private-message?, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to state that I have no objection to this at all !

So if you want to know more about how Evolution can be a truly "Christian" idea and be able to have answers, (but dont want to have your commments in the open forum), just drop me a PM and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have! :)

[MichaellS]

a new guest asks if I mind answering questions about what Im saying in a Private-message?, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to state that I have no objection to this at all !

So if you want to know more about how Evolution can be a truly "Christian" idea and be able to have answers, (but dont want to have your commments in the open forum), just drop me a PM and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have! :)

Evading engagement, but rather chose to lead astray.


"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light" (John 3:21)

I gave you what you asked for, what do you give back - nothing. What happened to you?

[alanmolstad]

as we have a moment and seem to have a break in the action, I also thought I might take this time as well to list some of the objections a Bible Student might hear to evolution being in agreement with Genesis.

When you read this list and come to an item that you would like to know how answer?...just ask me to address it as well as any concerns with how I am showing Scripture agreement/harmony with Evolution.


Here is a list of the common objections to Evolution/Genesis agreement:


Earth is only 6,000 years old in the bible
Evolution has animal death before Adam's sin
Bible has light created before the Sun
The word "day" can only mean 24 hours
The use of a number with the word "day" limits the time to 24 hours
The use of "Evening and Morning" force a 24 hour understanding
The 7-day work week force a 24 hour Genesis "day"
the speed of light was faster in Genesis.
God created light "in transit" between the stars
Not enough moon dust
Washington State volcano
Dino/human footprints
carbon 14 dating
mark 10;6
exodus 20;9-11
God should have used other words to describe "age" rather than "day"
Evolution is against the 2nd Law of thermodynamics

[alanmolstad]

Evading......If at any time you or anyone else reads something i have posted and have a doubt about it?, and would like me to address your concerns and would like to see my Scripture support for a teaching?.....just ask.

But if you dont want to, or are unable to join the conversation , then Im not going to pay any attention to the comments that were simply aimed to be "personal" and about me as a"person" .

[MichaellS]

If at any time you or anyone else reads something i have posted and have a doubt about it?, and would like me to address your concerns and would like to see my Scripture support for a teaching?.....just ask.

But if you dont want to, or are unable to join the conversation , then Im not going to pay any attention to the comments that were simply aimed to be "personal" and about me as a"person" .

More cover, because I know it must hurt.

But so that you know that I know, I am not the one being drawn into question here. This has nothing to do with personal attacks. My points have an indelible link to this thread, and you know it.

And this evasive promoting is designed to do what, rise above that “sin”? Don’t be deceived, it is “sin”, straight from God’s word.

Don’t make the same mistake of underestimating the word of God.

Of course it is being refused. God’s word cuts straight through the heart and if in opposition to it, and that refusal will be a very bumpy road you really don’t want to mess with as long as we chose a crooked path.


“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Heb 4:12)

“Good understanding giveth favor; But the way of the transgressor is hard.” (Proverbs 13:15)

That is why he is refusing me. He is only running and now shirking Christian discourse.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]More cover, because I know it must hurt.

I ignore personal comments...

( I mean after a while I might take some type of action, but that happens only if the other person simply just keeps posting personal comments and nothing else...remember we are here to discuss Evolution and Genesis, not each other!)

[alanmolstad]

to keep the topic moving, I thought next I might dig into the idea of there being death on the earth before the sin of Adam.


I will try to post a few ideas I have run into from the YEC teachings, and how a Bible student can answer them.

[MichaellS]

I ignore personal comments...

( I mean after a while I might take some type of action, but that happens only if the other person simply just keeps posting personal comments and nothing else...remember we are here to discuss Evolution and Genesis, not each other!)

Isn't that symptom of what I am saying, that there isn't a responsibility laid upon man?

Go ahead with your little threat.

Its true, based upon your refusal, yet promotion against the word of God - leading people astray. Sounds like pretty personal action taken by you to me!!

[alanmolstad]

Now one of the biggest objections the Bible Student is going to run into from the people that push the YEC teachings is that in evolution you learn that there was normal life and death on the earth for millions of years before the rise of modern man.

To the YEC teachings that cant be, because according to YEC teachings all death, both human and animal, is here only due to Adam's sin.

There are a few Bible verses that the YEC person will try to use to support their idea of no death on the earth before the sin of Adam.

The most often used verse used against my views in connection to this YEC teaching has to be Romans 5:12.

I will post that verse here so that we call look at it together

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned




Now when the YEC person sees this verse,and reads the part that says "death" entered the world though sin, they will automatically understand this to be talking about "all death"


(Yes, thats right, they have to slip the word "all" into the text here)

So this is why they will try to use this verse to prove that Evolution disagrees with the Bible, because Evolution holds that there was death before man, and yet to them this verse teaches them that 'all death" came after Adam's sin.


The answer to this is to point out to them that the target in the verse is only mankind.
In this verse death is said to come to "all people".....not to "all people and all animals"

Just to "all people.
So this verse is only aimed at addressing human death, not animals death at all.




Now there are some other Bible verses that might use a translation that has the word "all" included, but to answer that point we just have to point out to the YEC believer the other moments in the Bible that also make use of the word "all"


An example would be found in the way the Bible tells us at Genesis 3:20 that Eve would become the mother of "all the living".

We know for sure that the phrase "all the living" is only talking about all the humans....but the fact is, that if we are to hold that it was the sin of Adam that called "all death" including the animals, then in the same way we have to believe that Eve was the mother of "all the living" including the animals.

so what are we to then conclude?
The answer is that many times the plainest reading of a verse dealing with the word "all" will go against common sense.

and that just as Adam's sin caused death to come to "all" meaning just the people, so too we cant try to use this verse to teach that animals death was also due to Adam's sin.

Clearly the only death cause by the sin of Adam's was that of humans.....not that of any animals....







So this means that there is nothing in the Bible that teaches against the idea found in Evolution that animals died for millions of years on the earth before the rise of man.

[MichaellS]

So you still refuse to defend yourself from this thread’s objection? Who else is in collusion here with Alan?

Well, looks like at least you have an MIA moderator to side with.

New reader do retrace to see the objection.

[alanmolstad]

Just let me know if you have a question about anything I have posted now on this topic.

I would be very happy to go over the information i have posted and any questions about a verse I have quoted.




But if you have none?...then I have a few more things i plan to get to today on this topic of theistic-evolution

[alanmolstad]

One of the best things I remember most about Walter Martin in connection with this topic, is that when Walter would answer a common question about Genesis/evolution, he always allowed for the millions and billions of years of history taught by modern science in his answer.

Walter tended to shy-away from the idea that some people have that once you believe the earth is very old you are then forced to believe in a god-less evolution.
Walter would always give an answer that would allow for a old earth.

Im not saying Walter believed in evolution, but I am saying that Walter knew enough to understand that evolution is not something that in and of itself is against God's word.
Walter objected to the idea that some have that Evolution means there is no God.
Walter did not support people that connected evolution with the idea of no god...

So Walter was concerned that when people teach evolution in the church, they do so with the idea that God is always in control of evolution.
a God-less evolution is not hat Walter believed in, and neither do I.

Walter would point out to people that the Bible starts of with "In the beginning GOD created..."
It was this idea that regardless of how God did it, it yet is GOD alone that did do it!

thats what I believe too!

and Walter on many of his shows would go after people who were pushing the idea that the earth had to be young to have a true Bible.

One of the things I remember said in response to a person who believed in a young Earth was that Walter pointed out "What difference did it make if the earth was old?...."

Walter would always press the point that it did not matter if the earth was 4 hours old, or 4 billion years ol, the point of Genesis is that God made it, not the age of things made.

[MichaellS]

Excellent point! Ol’ Walter, he loved to bring up them scriptures for soundness didn’t he? Like taking up for the young and defenseless from the egregious personal attack of being deceived!


“Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.” (Psalm 82:4)

If you’re concerned about soundness, where is the response to my severe objection in link 128 (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814)?

Nothing, the objection stands and you have not proven me wrong, because yours doesn’t cancel mine and mine has all the bells-&-whistles you asked for including the link to the first book of the Bible. Hello?

For all I know, others may be deceived too. Fine, let them also come and prove me wrong, because you got nothing but a foolish invitation to twist the scriptures, just as I have shown you.

If you got something from Walter Martin that shows how to justify extrapolating sinful evolution from the Bible, then bring it forward. But I know that runs the risk of being more generalizations of the type you are accustom to.

Come-on mod, is godless har***ment permitted to run this deep. Are the personal attacks on the young of no concern to this site? Look, it remains un-contested, hello? Of course you see that don’t you, unless you want a collusive continuation of this dereliction as well. Then we would know what the mystery is all about. But I trust it doesn’t come to that.

Btw, are ‘Love you’ and ‘we are praying for you’, the “personal comments” you would rather ignore as well? Yikes! What the heck is this?

[alanmolstad]

Just let me know if you have a question about anything I have posted now on this topic.

I would be very happy to go over the information i have posted and any questions about a verse I have quoted.




But if you have none?...then I have a few more things i plan to get to today on this topic of theistic-evolution

I think next I might go over for our younger students, the verse in the book of *** that is talking about the very same moment in early earth history as is talked about in Genesis...

It may help bring to light how the earth got covered in water if it was created by God as a dry world as I have said?...and how it later is said to be in darkness?

[alanmolstad]

first, lets set the stage for this next issue we are going to dig into here,

The Earth was created as a dead and dry world...to confirm this lets look at - " in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

the verse that states what we are looking closer at is verse 6 above, "there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground"

so the Bible is teaching here that a "mist" came forth from the ground.
This is the same as is taught in science, for science also says that water forms on the earth via volcanic and hydro-thermal activity .

Now to learn more about this agreement between science and Genesis, lets turn in our Bibles to *** 38.

at *** 38 verse 4 we see "“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?" so clearly we are reading about the very same time in earth's history as we got in Genesis.

It goes on to say - "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,"


There you have it!...the "darkness" of Genesis is the very same "darkness" talked about here in ***, and we now known its all due to thick clouds!

Notice also the part that talks about how the water formed the seas,- telling us that the water "when it burst forth from the womb,"....this fits nicely with the way science tells us water was delivered to the surface of the earth via volcano.....a true "bursting forth"!

[MichaellS]

first, lets set the stage for this next issue we are going to dig into here,

The Earth was created as a dead and dry world...to confirm this lets look at - " in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

the verse that states what we are looking closer at is verse 6 above, "there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground"

so the Bible is teaching here that a "mist" came forth from the ground.
This is the same as is taught in science, for science also says that water forms on the earth via volcanic and hydro-thermal activity .

Now to learn more about this agreement between science and Genesis, lets turn in our Bibles to *** 38.

at *** 38 verse 4 we see "“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?" so clearly we are reading about the very same time in earth's history as we got in Genesis.

It goes on to say - "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,"


There you have it!...the "darkness" of Genesis is the very same "darkness" talked about here in ***, and we now known its all due to thick clouds!

Notice also the part that talks about how the water formed the seas,- telling us that the water "when it burst forth from the womb,"....this fits nicely with the way science tells us water was delivered to the surface of the earth via volcano.....a true "bursting forth"!

Wait a minute, the thread is about the verifiability of evolution which has been destroyed in a Christian context and fearfully avoided. Thank you.

See link 128 (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814).

[alanmolstad]

So if anyone would like a listing of good books to get that will offer the bible student the needed information on the truth abut Evolution and Genesis?...

Just drop me a Private Message and you will soon be able to both amaze and instruct your Sunday school teacher as well as your friends and family with facts that prove Evolution works hand-in-hand with Genesis, all right out out the bible!!!

[jude1:3]

Alan says that YEC must add to the Bible, but honestly I see the exact opposite.

I see Theistic Evolutionists Adding to the Bible with their "Theories" instead of just reading it in a straight forward plain way.

Macroevolution is Heretical Garbage and those who promote it are in danger of Hell Fire:

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, And ALL LIARS shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8




* Do some research on Charles Darwin's family "History" and it will become clear on how demonic his Theory is.

[jude1:3]

Research Charles Darwin's grandfather Erasmus Darwin and that will tell you all you need to know about what a devil Charles Darwin was.

[alanmolstad]

I have quoted scripture for every teaching I have so far shared.
I will continue to do this as I go forward too.

I base all things on the Bible...never do I say anything unless I have a scripture to back it up.

I have always invited every person reading my words , (including you Jude1;3) that if they have a question about where something I have taught appears in the Bible?, that all they have to do is ask for the bible verse and I will tell them where to look.


I got solid support for everything!


I have over and over asked people who doubt that Evolution walks in harmony with Genesis to open up their own Bible and follow along as I show you what the text says.

In return, I got one guy on this forum who posts that its wrong to question the YEC teachers, another guy who cant seem to find his Bible, and the 3rd guy who seems to only know how to insult other guests.






From their lack of being able to post Bible verses to support YEC I can only shake my head and smile.


Be that as it may, Im going to be posting more pro-Evolution posts, starting more "Genesis and Evolution agree" topics, and answering all Bible questions on the topic of how Evolution is actually God's handiwork, and totally within the things Christians can believe in.

[alanmolstad]

to review:



God created the sun and stars first.
The sun and moon and stars are the only source for the "light" talked about in all of Genesis.
The stars were NOT made on the 4th day.
The Earth was created as a dead dry world.
The reason the "waters" are said to be in "darkness" is given in *** 38
At *** 38 the reason for the darkness is thick clouds.
The 7th Day of the creation week has no ending yet in the Bible.
Thus we are still in the 7th day of the creation week
Animals died before the sin of Adam.
All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.





If you want to know how the things on that list are true?....ask me for the verse that teaches them and I will list it.

[MichaellS]

I have quoted scripture for every teaching I have so far shared.
I will continue to do this as I go forward too.

I base all things on the Bible...never do I say anything unless I have a scripture to back it up.

I have always invited every person reading my words , (including you Jude1;3) that if they have a question about where something I have taught appears in the Bible?, that all they have to do is ask for the bible verse and I will tell them where to look.


I got solid support for everything!


I have over and over asked people who doubt that Evolution walks in harmony with Genesis to open up their own Bible and follow along as I show you what the text says.

In return, I got one guy on this forum who posts that its wrong to question the YEC teachers, another guy who cant seem to find his Bible, and the 3rd guy who seems to only know how to insult other guests.






From their lack of being able to post Bible verses to support YEC I can only shake my head and smile.


Be that as it may, Im going to be posting more pro-Evolution posts, starting more "Genesis and Evolution agree" topics, and answering all Bible questions on the topic of how Evolution is actually God's handiwork, and totally within the things Christians can believe in.

Non-Christian blather as shown (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3945-Calling-evolution-quot-theistic-quot-dosen-t-make-it-true&p=167814&viewfull=1#post167814)

Since you won't defend Christianity's relation to evolution, we are left with what must be your rebellious intentions against Christianity

[alanmolstad]

to review:



God created the sun and stars first.
The sun and moon and stars are the only source for the "light" talked about in all of Genesis.
The stars were NOT made on the 4th day.
The Earth was created as a dead dry world.
The reason the "waters" are said to be in "darkness" is given in *** 38
At *** 38 the reason for the darkness is thick clouds.
The 7th Day of the creation week has no ending yet in the Bible.
Thus we are still in the 7th day of the creation week
Animals died before the sin of Adam.
All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.





If you want to know how the things on that list are true?....ask me for the verse that teaches them and I will list it.


Starting now with "God created the sun and stars first." lets go over each of the things on my list.

If you were to actually open your Bible and read it.,the first thing you will read is that -"In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth"
This sentence tells us many things,"In the beginning" is telling us when. The beginning means before anything else...it means that all things that happen come "after" this.
Don't ever let anyone tell you that something came before this...As Walter Martin used to say, "You cant have 2 firsts!"

The who is "God"
and the what is the heavens and the earth.
Now the use of the term "Heavens" is important to this discussion.
In the Bible you likely were taught that the word "Heavens" can have 3 meanings. The Bible does talk about some people going to the "3rd Heaven".
And all this is true.

But what is key for us is learning that among the correct meanings to the term "Heavens" is the idea of all the stars.
I would argue that this meaning of all the stars is the correct meaning for Genesis 1:1.

But its not just stars, for if the writer had wanted to say that God just created the stars there is another word that means stars that he should have used. But the use of the term "Heavens
opens up the understanding very wide for what it can mean.

Heavens can mean, "Everything"...all the stars, all the worlds,all the Black Holes, all the dust clouds that drift though deep space...

In other words, all the stuff"up there" in outer space,is correctly called by this one single word "Heavens"....

Thus, the use of the term "Heavens" is the one word the writer could have picked to use that correctly describes all the things that Science tells us were created in the Big Bang!


So nothing in this verse stands against Science or evolution.
We do understand that the main difference here in the verse is that the Bible tells us the who.....the who is "God"....and this is something that science can never tell us.
There is no test known to science that can prove there is a god....

This is why the story of Genesis is such a good thing for us to do.
For while both evolution and Genesis are talking about the very same earth history,only in the scripture do we see the real reasoning mind behind all things that we study in science.

This also is why we can say that Evolution and genesis walk hand-in-hand and offer us a well-rounded understanding of early earth history.

[disciple]

Be that as it may, Im going to be posting more pro-Evolution posts, starting more "Genesis and Evolution agree" topics, and answering all Bible questions on the topic of how Evolution is actually God's handiwork, and totally within the things Christians can believe in.

"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me." Mat 12:30
If you are pro-Evolution then you are working against Jesus.

[alanmolstad]

Next - The sun and moon and stars are the only source for the "light" talked about in all of Genesis.


The YEC teachers will try to tell you that they dont really have any idea where the "light" talked about at the start of genesis came from.

This is where the YEC teachers start to invent ideas and twist them into the text.
They dont know where the light came from, so they make up an answer..."Its a source-less light"

OK, lets face facts,,,thats a silly answer..
Its the kind of answer a child might come up with when they get caught not knowing something they should know.

Whole chapters of YEC text books are written all around the topic of this light that has no source.
It is very much responsible for a lot of the errors found in YEC teachings...this tendency to stray away from what the text says in blace and whole and just pull things out of the air and then tell students to bow down to them....even though they were invented.

the work the YEC teachers put into defending their silly idea about a light with no source is very sad...yet its typical for teachers that long ago gave up reading the text in favor of just making stuff up.


and...all this is so unnecessary!
The Text has a nice source written down for all the light talked about in genesis...both the light talked about with the "Let there be light" verse as well as the light talked about on Day 4.

What is that source for the light of genesis?......the sun.


Thats the answer....the source for all the light in genesis is just the normal sun we see today in the sky.

When the Bible tells us that "In the beginning God created the heavens(all the stars including our sun) and the earth", it gave us the source for all the light it would later talk about.


so the sun is the source for the light in genesis.

its a simply answer...and the best answer because its the only correct answer too!

[MichaellS]

"Anyone who isn't with me opposes me, and anyone who isn't working with me is actually working against me." Mat 12:30
If you are pro-Evolution then you are working against Jesus.

Agreed! Which stems from the thread’s purpose,

That which has to do with God, Jesus Christ.

Not that which has not to do with God.

And that which has not to do with Jesus,

Has not to do with God.


“For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” (Colossians 2:9)

Therefore, the thread is under continual har***ment of derailment at best,

and a “****able heresy” to deceive the personal wellbeing of the weaker Christian at worst.

The preservation of the Christian element here, are for the time being at the mercy of the commenters. For those at the helm seem very comfortable with unobstructed derailment.

Mike.

[MichaellS]

Moderator or reader!?!

The Christian element here is unanimous.

I think I speak for all of us here in that appeal after appeal to reason with Alanmolstad remains a shambles.

Alanmolstad’s involvement on this thread now remains solely for derailment and the enlistment of potential individuals to heresy, period.

Any objections to this? Feel free to do so. But please advise us those objections from the word of God.

Mike.

[alanmolstad]

The stars were NOT made on the 4th day.


This does surprise a few people.
Many people read the text they find dealing with the 4th day of Genesis and think that not only does the text clearly says that god made the stars on this day, but also the sun and moon too.

So How can i say that not only are the stars not said to be made on the 4th day, but also the text does not actually say the sun and moon were made on the 4th day as well..


doubt me?.......well,lets read what we find in the Bible.

Genesis 1:16....."God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."
Holy smoke, does it really say that god made the sun and moon and stars?....could Alan actually be wrong?....(Lets look closer)


What actually does it say?...does it literally say that God made the "sun?......No!

Does it literally say God made the "moon".....No!.


Well, what does it say was made on the 4th day?.....a greater light and a lesser light.


thats it?....no sun?......nope,

just the light, not the sun itself?....thats right.

its sorta like having the light from a light bulb as compared to having the light bulb itself.

The light is different that the bulb....

Its like the noise of my truck is not the same thing as my truck itself...You can have one without the other....You can seethe light from a source and not be able to see the source itself,,,(like not being able to see the sun at night or on a cloudy day)
The sun is still there, burning as brightly as ever..Its just for some reason you cant see the sun itself with now.


But what about the stars?.....the Bible does not actually say God made the stars on the 4th day.

But in my bible it does say he made the stars on the 4th day, how can that be?.....lets check the King James.

Why should we check the King James bible?...because the King James will have a way to learn what words were added by the editors for different reasons, ...The KJ will show us what words are not found in the Hebrew by putting the words inside brackets [ ]


So now lets read the verse in the King James and see if that points something out that we didn't know before?...


"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also."



What words are in brackets?......"he made"



So "he made" are added and not in the Hebrew?.....yes!

Well what happens if you dont add them to the verse,, what does it then teach?....it teaches that the lesser light rules over the night and the stars.


Thats it?..just that the lesser light rules over the night and the stars, not that they were made?....see how simple it is!







So the Bible then clearly has no anti-science verses in the genesis story?.....no, none at all...In fact i like to view the relationship of Genesis to science as showing us that there is such a thing as theistic-science !

[alanmolstad]

once again if anyone has a question about something I have posted?...just drop me a message and I will be happy to answer any questions about what i have written or on genesis you have.

I really want to help anyone that has had to struggle with this issue in the past and would like to know how to stand up to the YEC teachings.

[MichaellS]

once again if anyone has a question about something I have posted?.

What does this mean after all this. If we had any questions on what scripture? There is no scripture that I haven't touched on, and you won't discuss it with me, including Genesis?

What an outright bias you bring.


"But if you show partiality, you are committing sin" (James 2:9)

[alanmolstad]

If you have a question on any of the many Scripture I have quoted? Or would like to know more about what I have taught on so far? ....just drop me a message.

[MichaellS]

If you have a question on any of the many Scripture I have quoted? Or would like to know more about what I have taught on so far? ....just drop me a message.

Yes, I have a question on what you have taught based on this.


1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. (I John 4:1-3)

Would you signify your adherence to the body of Christ, and confirm His coming in the flesh by simply saying, AMEN?

Thank you for your answer that will come!

Mike.
.

[MichaellS]

If you have a question on any of the many Scripture I have quoted? Or would like to know more about what I have taught on so far? ....just drop me a message.

Third attempt to secure my question as it didn’t go through to Alan as Alan requested.

Yes, I have a question on what you have taught based on this.


1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. (I John 4:1-3)

Would you signify your adherence to the body of Christ, and confirming His coming in the flesh by simply saying, AMEN?

Thank you for your answer that will come!

Mike.
.

[alanmolstad]

Mike....

I asked people to simply do what is listed at Acts 17:11 , where the Berean Jews listened to what Paul came to them and taught, and then they opened their Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true?

" Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true ".



That's how you test things...

Every word that I have shared here (and will share in the future) is always backed with Scripture.

I have over and over told you that if you don't believe something I'm teaching and you have a doubt that my teachings are found in the bible?..that the Christian response (and my request) is that you should open your Bible and check to see if the Bible says what I say it says?

Treat my words the same way the Jew treated the words of Paul.....check em out!



That is all Im asking you to do.
No math, no heavy lifting, just open your Bible to a verse I listed that teaches what I claim and see what it says there...

The reaction to this request is to call my Christian faith into question ?
To act all "How dare Alan about that!", and accuse me of discussing something that should never be discussed ?
To attempt to get the owner of this forum to shut down the topic ?

That's typical...

So far whats that all got you?


Nothing?......well, have you tied holding your breath?

[jude1:3]

Evolution is a demonic theory promoted by Evil Men and given to them by satan.

These evil people wanted to "DESTROY THE BIBLE WITHOUT BURNING IT THROUGH THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION."

[alanmolstad]

to review:



God created the sun and stars first.
The sun and moon and stars are the only source for the "light" talked about in all of Genesis.
The stars were NOT made on the 4th day.
The Earth was created as a dead dry world.
The reason the "waters" are said to be in "darkness" is given in *** 38
At *** 38 the reason for the darkness is thick clouds.
The 7th Day of the creation week has no ending yet in the Bible.
Thus we are still in the 7th day of the creation week
Animals died before the sin of Adam.
All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.





If you want to know how the things on that list are true?....ask me for the verse that teaches them and I will list it.



well if there are no questions?..then later tonight I think we can press on to this next teachings of the Bible...

The Earth was created as a dead dry world.

[MichaellS]

How supremely unfortunate a twist THIS time over these last entries of all of our concern, and to say it is a paramount concern seems to fall well short over what has just occurred.

I am compelled to rest.

Mike.
.

[jude1:3]

How supremely unfortunate a twist THIS time over these last entries of all of our concern, and to say it is a paramount concern seems to fall well short over what has just occurred.

I am compelled to rest.

Mike.
.





It's sad that people don't realize that evolution was thought up and created by Godless Occultist Evil Men.

Evolution was brought about to steal people's faith in The Bible's Origin of Man, The Fall, The Prophets, and The Redemption of Fallen Man Through The Lord Jesus Christ.

Evolution wants young people to believe that morality is subjective and that there are no absolutes.



*Evil Men don't want people to believe in The Spiritual world so they can control them and use it against them. If you don't believe in God then you're obviously not going to believe in the other side of the coin like demons, The devil, Sorcery Etc.

That's why I honestly don't trust a so called Christian that promotes Macroevolution. It is in complete opposition to the gospel and that is why people like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others promote it.

[alanmolstad]

The Earth was created as a dead dry world


The Young Earth Teachers believe the earth was created wet....whats the Bible say?......the answer is found at Genesis 2:5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

Lets go over that and look closer at what is being taught.

Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth, from when we were were reading about the Days of Genesis, we know that vegetation appeared on the earth on Day 3....
So this part of the verse is likely talking about a time prior to day 3...


for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth
we also know that the Bible talks about the "waters" and "the deep" on day one, so this means we are talking about an early moment on Day 1 before water had covered the earth.

but streams (mist) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground in this part of the verse we learn where the water came from that the Spirit of God was hovering over at the start of the story....Notice that the water that came from underground watered the "whole surface"of the ground.
This is were 'the deep"seas came from.



So to sum up.
In science and we learn that the earth was formed as a dry dead world, and that over millions of years via volcanic activity water formed clouds and later would fall to earth and fill the low areas into great seas.
And we now see that this history taught to us by science is confirmed in the text of the Genesis story...

Truly another example of theistic science at its best!

[alanmolstad]

Tomorrow I will share a few thoughts on the next entry on my list of things taught in Genesis > "The reason the "waters" are said to be in "darkness" is given in *** 38
At *** 38 the reason for the darkness is thick clouds.

[jude1:3]

Tomorrow I will share a few thoughts on the next entry on my list of things taught in Genesis > "The reason the "waters" are said to be in "darkness" is given in *** 38
At *** 38 the reason for the darkness is thick clouds.



You should repent from promoting Heresy.

[alanmolstad]

You still don't dare open your bible to test what actually says eh?

[jude1:3]

You still don't dare open your bible to test what actually says eh?


Evolution was thought up by and promoted by men who were Not Christians. Why do you promote a theory that was Literally created to destroy the Bible, Christianity and the belief in God all together ?

[MichaellS]

It's sad that people don't realize that evolution was thought up and created by Godless Occultist Evil Men.

Evolution was brought about to steal people's faith in The Bible's Origin of Man, The Fall, The Prophets, and The Redemption of Fallen Man Through The Lord Jesus Christ.

Evolution wants young people to believe that morality is subjective and that there are no absolutes.



*Evil Men don't want people to believe in The Spiritual world so they can control them and use it against them. If you don't believe in God then you're obviously not going to believe in the other side of the coin like demons, The devil, Sorcery Etc.

That's why I honestly don't trust a so called Christian that promotes Macroevolution. It is in complete opposition to the gospel and that is why people like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and others promote it.

Thanks Jude1:3.

I’m beginning to see that.

I see a little better on this subject than before entering the last two or three postings. This just isn’t my

It appears the evil that prevents discussion is soo dependent on the victim to detach oneself as you say, till they cannot tolerate absolutes, or relative morality.

They cannot tolerate the word of the Lord spoken through His servant that the “God of this world has blinded” (II Cor 4:4)

And where do they find solace, that they are worthy, because they are handling the word of God?

Apparently, the word fails to reach their ears to correct their artificial faith:


"These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Is 29:13, Mat 15:8, Mk 7:6)


“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him” (***us 1:16)

What works is God being denied honor here? Well try this oh enlightened one,


“submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Eph 5:21)

Doggone, there’s another point, but the vanity is sure to swallow.

When we asked in unison to cease from this foolish handling of the word, where is the “submit”?

This spirit refuses the fellowship of Christians.

Sad? The whole thread wreaks of sadness. Truth has to be that way sometimes.

But any hope for “submit” just returns the same “open your Bibles” and forget all those precepts of what the Lord said concerning these things the spirit knows by now isn’t the way out of this m***ive contention.

But it in effect is saying ‘Ahhh don’t worry about it, just put your mind in neutral’

Nope, not there either.


“Be of sober spirit, be on the alert.” (I Pet 5:8)

Let’s see,

• There are those who are diligent and submit to one another and share in the joy of the Spirit.

• And there are those who upset study, refusing to submit to others and cause immense sadness.

Just as Disciple called up,


"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.” (Mat 12:30)

[alanmolstad]

The reason the "waters" are said to be in "darkness" is given in *** 38




Then the Lord spoke to *** out of the storm. He said:.......
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?.......
.Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—...........

“Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9
when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,




This chapter of the book of *** is clearly talking about the very same moment in time talked about in Genesis !
Notice how it talks about when God "laid the earth’s foundation" and so there can be no doubt that this section is clearly dealing with the same time as is Genesis.

We read how water came to form the great seas as the water is said to "burst forth from the womb"...this is a description of just how the "mist" came up from underground talked about in Genesis 2.

The descriptions of this early sea talked about in Genesis continues "when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness,"

This is where we see the reason the waters of the first chapter of Genesis were said to be in "darkness" for the darkness talked about here in the Book of *** is the very same early earth darkness talked about in Genesis !

and the reason for this darkness is the very simple and easy to understand reason of it being cloudy.


So there was a sun burning brightly in the heavens as we have already discussed before, but due only to the thick clouds listed here at *** 38 there was darkness across the waters of Genesis and ***.

Nothing here is against science in the smallest bit.

[alanmolstad]

I like also how the King James says it at *** 38


Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

[alanmolstad]

the image we are to have of God's actions is that god wrapped the earth tightly in darkness caused by thick clouds....



swaddlingband = http://biblehub.com/topical/s/swaddling-band.htm
and -

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/3_week_old_swaddled_infant.png/1280px-3_week_old_swaddled_infant.png

This is why the waters spoken of in Genesis were said to be in 'darkness">>..for the earth was wrapped tight by the Lord in clouds and darkness.

[alanmolstad]

Later tonight I will be writing a few thoughts on the next teaching from our list -

"The 7th Day of the creation week has no ending yet in the Bible.

Thus we are still in the 7th day of the creation week "





I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all who have sent messages to me over the last week, and encouraged me to continue to stand up for Christians who are not afraid to open their Bible and believe it as written.
I also would be happy to answer any more questions about what the Bible saying in Genesis, all you have to do is drop me a message for I try to always answer my messages first every night.

thanks again -

[disciple]

Hello Alan,

I am curious to know which you were exposed to first, the theory of Evolution(perhaps in public school) or the Bible? And since most people don't receive direct revelations from God explaining Bible doctrine, who do you credit for enlightening you to the "old earth" doctrine you espouse? Thanks.

[alanmolstad]

Hello Alan,

I am curious to know which you were exposed to first, the theory of Evolution(perhaps in public school) or the Bible? And since most people don't receive direct revelations from God explaining Bible doctrine, who do you credit for enlightening you to the "old earth" doctrine you espouse? Thanks.
Ken Ham.....
I attended an 8-week YEC cl*** that Ken Ham came to our Bible cl*** and taught us personally.
There were about 60 of us in the cl*** ( it's a big church) and i attended every one of the lessons.

I believe I have written on this forum several times about how it dawns on me that YEc is a lie, that Ken Ham, (although a nice enough guy) was totally clue-free as to what the Bible taught.

I also believe that I have told everyone here several times, that in all the 8-weekcl*** I never asked any questions ,except once.
Ken was talking about the first order of the things God created, and he listed 'light"as being first of all the things God has made....and I called that into question.

What happened later is some of the older guys in the cl*** came over and we sat around later after cl*** and the guys started asking me questions because I have said something in my question to Ken Ham that sparked a lot of souls into really re-thinking the whole body of teachings that ken was there spreading.

It truly was one of the best bible-based conversations any of us had been in....
Years later I still heard the guys talking about how I really was on fire and they had never seen anyone who had it all worked out the way I had....

The truth is, I was just opening my bible and addressing every issues the guys raised with a Bible verse that clearly addressed it.

its like the light came on for the guys in the room...and from that day forward I have never doubted that if a person stays close to the black-and-white words found in the Scripture that you will never in a million/ zillion years believe in the YEC teachings.

They simply are an invented idea ,pushed on to Christians who are too trusting of evil men, and too unsure of their own sills with the Bible to know any better.

as things went along I became aware later of this Dr Walter Martin guy, and I remember so many times people would call into his radio Answer man show, with a question about the Young Earth Creationism teachings, and I remember how Walter would never come down on the side of Ken ham on any such question..


Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer man host also does not support the Young earth teachings too!

so im in good company on that issue...


With the rise of the internet what has happened is that a bunch of websites with out-dated YEC teachings is always out there getting hits.
They are selling ideas that long ago guys like Ken ham gave up teachings because it became clear it was all based on faked facts....(moon dust, dino footprints etc)
But you still find foolish Christians thinking that outdated information is the 'truth" and so lies of the YEc teachers of the past keep getting spread around to the Church all the time.


thus with forums like this I try to point out the main flaw in YEC teachings...that being,"They are a bunch of ****"


The research of the YEC teachings is faked...and a bunch of ****..

The books and websites...are ****.

the thinking behind the YEC teachings is ****...

so there is a lot of **** found in the YEC topics I find on the internet forums Im a member of.



To fight this **** what do I do?......I use the Bible.

Thats my only weapon.
I dont quote people...I dont rely on other books,,,I dont have websites that Im hitting all the time for new answers,
I dont try to get people to go read some other book,,they dont need to go visit some other teacher, they dont have to go climb a mountain,

I just pick up my bible and see what it says...then I believe that and teach that..

if I cant see it in the text?....,I dont believe it...


what I have ended up with is that I have a set of teachings I share with people that dont require me to add anything to the Bible.
i dont have to add words...I don't have to add endings to days that don't appear in the text...
I dont have to pretend the word "light" means other things in the past and a different thing to day.

To me its a lot more easy to believe that "light" is normal light....
I dont need to invent a unknown , source-less light just to make my teachings work.




so in other words...I stick to the text because it makes it a lot more easy .


I dont really push anything except for people to open their Bible and see if what Im saying the Text says is actually what it says.

people that are not afraid, will open their Bible and put all my words to the TEST!...

If I say that a verse teaches ___, then they will open their bible to that verse and read it for themselves to see if i quote it correctly?



Thats the thing with me..I really push Bible reading.
I push people all the time to simply sit down and read the text for themselves...
If someone were to ask about what i was attempting to get people to do?..I want the answer to be that Alan was always goading people to read their bibles.....



That is the Only Thing Im guilty of.....

[MichaellS]

Hello Alan,

I am curious to know which you were exposed to first, the theory of Evolution(perhaps in public school) or the Bible? And since most people don't receive direct revelations from God explaining Bible doctrine, who do you credit for enlightening you to the "old earth" doctrine you espouse? Thanks.

Honestly, trying to get a direct answer without the usual ‘because I refused this’ response is lost.

After all that has been discussed in the Bible and by reason thus far, one can easily see who is of an accepting behavior to be “fully furnished” (II Tim 3:17) in Bible study, and who it is that cherry-picks scripture to support a heresy.

If the later one is the kind of Bible teaching one seeks that is devoid of the simplicity that is Christ, then the heresy brought by this evolution teacher is your man.

Elsewhere on this site he said,


“the Bible is true”

Then, in the same breath said:


“Evolution is true”

The repeat postings of ignoring the charge are telling to all true interception.

If soundness and virtue are the hallmark of his Bible study, then he would have no reason to resist answering straight forward questions as we have asked.


I just pick up my bible and see what it says...then I believe that and teach that..

That is true for Alan, because whatever he can extract towards evolution. But if the Bible rises up against evolution, , I think you get the point, , how’s it go Alan? – Not just “Can it!” but trash the messenger too.


“Paul came to them and taught,”

“That's how you test things...”

“Every word that I have shared here (and will share in the future) is always backed with Scripture.”

I said trash the messenger and that is what I meant! This has been covered and completely left you unraveled to even think to challenge it, and they know it. And I won’t insult their intelligence the way you do.

But you also seem interested in picking up on my vernacular, attempting to ferment me along the road to hostility, as though you dive in on it more and more as tid-bit to your silly heresy. Maybe you could take a tip from the OT prophet Elijah for your God of evolution,


“Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought,” , , But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention."

That is, no one who showed up for the love of the Lord a few posts ago.

[alanmolstad]

I don't understand any of that....
But back to what I'm going to be posting on later...I believe next up is the teaching from Genesis that the 7th day has no ending yet in the Text.

[jude1:3]

Macroevolution is just one of Many Heresies that The Church has battled through the centuries. This list goes on and on :


Adoptionism
Apolinarism
Arianism
Docetism
Luciferians
Macedonians
Melchisedechians
Monarchianism
Monophysitism
Nestorianism
Sabelianism
Gnosticism
Etc.

[jude1:3]

Here is a huge list of Heresies The Church has rejected :



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies

[MichaellS]

Here is a huge list of Heresies The Church has rejected :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_heresies

“Free Spirit” which Alan also subscribes to is on that list. But I see no mention of evolution.

Many Christians now walk oblivious to obedience to the will of God over this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy

Consider my scriptural condemnation of evolution,

Christians and “evolution”, a movement with a significant following. Is it possible the use of evolution and faith has in any way given way to disrespect that faith? I would like to remind the reader, we don’t have the luxury to apply it wherever we see fit, that is, where it seems to fit, or the amount of liberty where we want it to fit. But rather, does the complication follow the text of faith?:


“for we walk by faith, not by sight” (II Corinthians 5:7)

“And without faith it is impossible to please God” for “whatever is not from faith is sin.” (Hebrews 11:6, Romans 14:23)


“Neither give heed to fables, , , which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith” (I Timothy 1:4)

What does evolution minister? Those who are convinced that the bible supports evolution should have exhausted the possibility that evolution is no fable to minister questions and is something which we can by edified on.

If you’re going to set out to prove evolution as a Christian, then you must be able to ***ume responsibility of how faith is introduced alongside of this hypothesis, for that is all it is up to this point, a hypothesis.

Anyone who commits to the hypothesis of evolution without ***uming responsibility of not just the bible as reference, but the word of faith has failed the course and wishes to upset the whole community of faith within range which leads to seduction from the truth.

If the word appears “figurative” to you and you bring that forth to grant more interest in question, then that is not of faith but “minister questions”.

A hypothesis is a proposal for a phenomenon. On the other hand a theory, borrowed from science friend of mine:

“scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.

So, calling evolution a theory would be wrong then. It’s merely a hypothesis.”

To think how easily a Christian can begin to pick up on philosophies over time is incredible, as you know. My position is that this theory carries an allure that if truly honest, would oppose portions in the word of God. The science involved must not give into an allurement that carries such a large reputation as an easy one to be underestimated.

From what I see coming from the Deistic Evolutionist, Old-Earth Evolutionaries or Theistic Evolution creationists’, etc, this being a mixture of evolution and a belief in God simply doesn’t offer a clear understanding of what it is when they say “evolution” and when it recognizes creation. A rather fuzzy variant, a vehicle of chance, a tool of God without any direct affiliation from the Father.

As Colossians points out:


“by him all things are held together.” (Colossians 1:17)

I do think it noteworthy that roughly half of the translations out there use one of the two words, either “held” or “consist”. Fair to say that the word itself, “held” right off the bat doesn’t sound entirely conducive to the movement of progression, but stationary. Let’s see this verb once from Strongs:


4921. sunistémi and sunistanó
Strong's Concordance
sunistémi and sunistanó: to commend, establish, stand near, consist
Original Word: συνίστημι, συνιστάνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Short Definition: I commend, prove, am composed of, cohere
Definition: I place together, commend, prove, exhibit; instrans: I stand with; I am composed of, cohere.

What is furthermore said in James:


“Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:17)

Does evolution hold up well when asked; where does James say here that the original design intents of God change? Not that I have seen. Maybe someone could show me a fairly good reference to support that.

But consider, to continue in this theory can’t help but subs***ute faith with something prior, something that made or caused that thing to appear or happen, originating all the way back to the point of creation, and nothing else.

In James 1:17, what “good” thing was ever given from God to show the invariableness, the shiftlessness of v17 which would be contrary to evolution? For remember, it isn’t God the Father 17 is referring to, but that which proceeds from Him with the use of “with whom”.

What “good”? The very first reflection God gave upon creation itself and everything thereafter:
“And God saw that it was good” (Gen.1:4,10,12,18,21,25)

Not to forget the constant good the Father does as again Colossians points out:


“by him all things are held together.” (Colossians 1:17)


“, , by him all things subsist - Or are sustained, , The meaning is, that they are kept in the present state; their existence, order, and arrangement are continued by his power. If unsupported by him, they would fall into disorder, or sink back to nothing. - Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Or consider He who spoke not of himself, Jesus. If everything is in a state of constant redesign, then the Christ himself would have certainly recognized this when He cursed the fig tree.


"May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" – Jesus Christ (Mark 11:14)

But He didn't recognized the world and its ever-changing state, but rather it’s UN-“shifting shadow” as it was intended, the original design intents of the Creator. If we want to ***ume anything less, we obscure His reasoning He stood upon that day. Are we still willing to tow in the evolutionary thought to this shaky, contrary sound; the sound of self-seduced void of faith imagination rising up against faith?

My conclusion is there simply isn't the smallest hint of scriptural support for this "theory". For me to do so isn't that far from refusal to believe the Lord is capable of giving life to “Every good thing” created without “evolution” within the above considerations.

Mike.

[alanmolstad]

The 7th Day of the creation week has no ending yet in the Bible.
Thus we are still in the 7th day of the creation week


I have already on several opportunities here on this forum discussed this idea that we find in the bible.
Basically in a nutshell its this : that in the story of genesis we have 7 days talked about, 6 of them have very clear endings..so clear you cant miss it.
The wording for each of the endings is the same...always the same.

this points us to the fact that the writer of genesis wanted to know for sure...for 100% sure by the way, that the first 6days of genesis are already ended.


There is no doubts about it...

No one disputes the fact that the bible clearly wants us to be very informed that the first 6 days of genesis are ended.

But the 7th?.....
The 7th has no ending in the Bible..


Now I can remember the fist time this fact came up in conversation with others in the bible school I attended at our church.
I was in a Bible school cl*** with about 25 other guys. I was one of the youngest in the cl***, but what really separated me from others is that I was clearly not a YEC believer by this time.

I had already attended the 8-week ORIGINS cl*** taught to us by Ken Ham, so I knew by now the whole set of teachings found in the Young earth Creation movement was nothing but a house of cards that could be made to fall easy.

so Like I said, I stuck out in our Bible School cl*** as being like the 'head guy" who didnt follow the YEC teachings at all, whereas most of the other students including the instructor had been seduced by Mr Ham's teachings.

Well at one point we were discussing the "Days" of genesis , and I was sticking to the Bible's text alone while the other guys were giving me back all the normal YEC arguments, (None of their stuff was based on the Bible mind you) when one of the biggest YEC students turned to me and tried to use the Hebrew word "YOM" to say that that word "always" means a 24 hour day"

( Here a little clue I have learned, whenever a YEC believe says something like "It ALWAYS means ___"you can put real money on the fact that it dont always mean squat....)

The word "always" is used a lot in the YEC textbooks, and people read i and believe it...yet when you dig into things you come to realize that the word "always' really falls short of the full understanding of any Hebrew word.
They use the term "YOM" and say that because a word is 'singular" it must also mean that its only connected in context to a single 24 hour day.

But I point out that a day can be very "singular" and have a totally "unknown, or unlimited" amount of time it talking about!!!

The YEC student challenged me to back that up!


I answered with the sentence...."]You know, back in my "DAY" most cars didn't come with automatic shifters"[/I]

You could see the smile on the YEC students fact freeze as he went over my sentence in his mind...


He could see that the word 'day" could be very singular, yet be about years and years in meaning due to the context .

But like I say, this other student really believed in his heart that the bible must be only talking about 24 hour days, so he tried a few other ways that the YEC textbooks had taught him to challenge my views...a

Then i swirched gearson him, and asked him if he knew for sure that the days of Genesi had ended?
Oh he was more that ready to address that question , and he and a bunch of other students dug into their Bibles and started to quote me the Bibles endings for the first 6 days...
All the students were smiling because they thought for a moment at last "The had me"...they had proved the "days of genesi were only 24 hours because they could show me the verse where each ends.

Then really without knowing the full depth of the thing i was about to say, it dawned on me at the time that no one listed the ending to the 7th day...I had never really given the 7th day's ending much of a thought beofre that moment, but out the words came from my mouth...

"Could you show me where the Bible says the 7th day ended?"

the YEC students started to dig into their Bibles....even the instructor started to turn a page or two of his Bible.
There was a lot of whispering.....and then i saw the students start to reach into their bags to drag ut the YEC textbooks .


I thought that was a very good symbol for the YEC movement in the Christian Church.

the symbol is that you cant fing the YEC teachings in the bible..you have to read about it in YEC textbooks.

I pointed this fact out to the students.
This is why whrn i debate the roll of evolution in God's creation, the people that argue against my views never open their bible to prove me wrong..
They cant prove me wrong by using the text found in Genesis...
They learn that i got Genesis down pat.

I proved my case.




So to sum up: its the same with the bible's use of the word "day" in genesis...it can also be very singular in appearance, and yet speak to a vast unknown amount of years.

and that search high and low for a verse that teaches that the 7th day has ended and you cant find it listed within the bible.
The Bible simply does not teach the 7th day has ended yet.

The only arguments I get that the 7th day has already ended come from the YEC textbooks and websites...and i can after all this time, smell them coming a mile away...

[jude1:3]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4] But I see no mention of evolution.



You're right. I mean it more in a Non Official Way.



I found some more information from an Orthodox site :

The earliest extant Christian writings on the age of the world according to the Biblical chronology are by Theophilus of Antioch (AD 115-181), the sixth bishop of Antioch from the Apostles, in his apologetic work To Autolycus, and by Julius Afric**** (AD 200-245) in his Five Books of Chronology . Both of these early Christian writers, following the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, determined the age of the world to have been about 5,530 years at the birth of Christ.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era

[disciple]

[B
Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer man host also does not support the Young earth teachings too!

so im in good company on that issue...


[/B]

Once again Alan is zealous without correct knowledge. The following was written by Hank Hanegraaff, the current "bible answer man".

Did God Use Darwinian Evolution to Create Living Things? Under the banner of “theistic evolution,” a growing number of Christians maintain that God used evolution as His method for creation. This, in my estimation, is the worst of all possibilities. It is one thing to believe in evolution, it is quite another to blame God for it. Not only is theistic evolution a contradiction in terms—like the phrase flaming snowflakes—but in the words of the Nobel prize winning evolutionist Jacques Monod:


[Natural] selection is the blindest, and most cruel way of evolving new species….The struggle for life and elimination of the weakest is a horrible process, against which our whole modern ethic revolts….I am surprised that a Christian would defend the idea that this is the process which God more or less set up in order to have evolution.
First, the biblical account of creation specifically states that God created living creatures according to their own “kind.” As confirmed by science, the DNA for a fetus is not the DNA for a frog and the DNA for a frog is not the DNA for a fish. Rather the

DNA of a fetus, frog, or fish is uniquely programmed for reproduction after its own kind. Thus while the Bible allows for microevolution (transitions within “the kinds”) it does not allow for macroevolution (amoebas evolving into apes or apes evolving into astronauts).

Furthermore, evolutionary biology cannot account for metaphysical realities such as ego and ethos. Without data demonstrating that physical processes can produce metaphysical realities, there is no warrant for dogmatically declaring that humans evolved from hominids.

Finally, an omnipotent, omniscient God does not have to plod painfully through millions of mistakes, misfits, and mutations in order to have fellowship with humans. As the biblical account of creation confirms, He can create humans instantaneously. Moreover, as noted, the hallmark of Darwinian evolutionary theory is that all living things evolved through unguided, purposeless natural processes—chance and necessity. As has been well said, not even God can direct an undirected process.

Evolutionism is fighting for its very life. Rather than prop it up with theories such as theistic evolution, thinking people everywhere must be on the vanguard of demonstrating its demise.

—Hank Hanegraaff

[alanmolstad]

Actually we were discussing the age of the earth...
Hank does NOT support the YOUNG earth view at all...I posted the linked video already where he takes apart the young earth position...

I will post the link for any that missed it....

[alanmolstad]

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/young-world/

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF439O_-jMM

[alanmolstad]

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2014/06/04/hank-hanegraaff-falsely-accuses-me-on-national-radio/

[alanmolstad]

Radio Host Hank Hanegraaff Supports Evolutionary, Old Earth Proponent

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2011/07/20/radio-host-hank-hanegraaff-supports-evolutionary-old-earth-proponent/

[alanmolstad]

"Hanegraaff used to be a fairly ardent young-earth creationist, but has become more open ..."


http://oldearthcreationism.blogspot.com/2011/07/ken-ham-on-bill-dembski-and-hank.html

[alanmolstad]

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective


http://www.reasons.org/articles/notable-christians-open-to-an-old-universe-old-earth-perspective

[alanmolstad]

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective


http://www.reasons.org/articles/notable-christians-open-to-an-old-universe-old-earth-perspective

[alanmolstad]

.......

as things went along I became aware later of this Dr Walter Martin guy, and I remember so many times people would call into his radio Answer man show, with a question about the Young Earth Creationism teachings, and I remember how Walter would never come down on the side of Ken ham on any such question..


Im glad to see that the [B]current Bible Answer man host also does not support the Young earth teachings too!

so im in good company on that issue...

.....




You do realize now that I'm always absolutely right all the time ,correct?

[alanmolstad]

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/evolutionministries.php




" "With the above biblical data in mind, [supporting the "day-age" billions of years]... most of the strongest arguments against the creationist viewpoint currently being made by contemporary science are eliminated when we let go of our insistence upon a 6,000-10,000 year old earth. From the standpoint of presenting an effective apologetic (defense) for the Christian faith, this point must be considered. Why put heavy emphasis on a doctrine that can stand in the way of some people's arriving at Christian faith when it is not even certain that the biblical data supports the obstacle in question?" [i.e. the Bible data is not certain the earth is young]
-Christian Research Ins***ute, lead by Hank Hanegraaff, The Creation Story: How Old is the Earth?, "

[alanmolstad]

http://www.cross.tv/114416

[MichaellS]

If I didn’t know any better, a certain p***ing fad is trying desperately to overcome reality.


“Heed the still small voice that so seldom leads us wrong, and never into folly.” - Marquise du Deffand

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC8gjcTqfjQ

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3qh-heyoFk

[alanmolstad]

>>>>>>>as I have said...OVER AND OVER.....



I can remember many times when Dr Walter Martin was asked a question about Genesis or evolution, Walter would always give his answer in such a way as to always allow for the vast age of the earth required by evolution.

As I also said many times, Im not really sure if Walter actually believed in evolution,but i do know that he made a special point each time he answers such questions on the story of Genesis that he would make sure everyone understood that there is nothing in the Bible that says the earth could not be millions of years old...

Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer Man also has taken a stand against the teaching of the Young Earth gang....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF439O_-jMM

[alanmolstad]

I could go on.......

I just wanted to make sure everyone watching this topic understands that "Alan knows his stuff".

I have seen it before....I seen the smile in the eyes of the YEc believers I have debated in the past when they think for a brief moment, "They got me".
They dont count on the fact that I never post anything thats not true...

It's just like that story I told today to you guys, where I asked the cl*** if the Bible taught that the 7th day of Genesis had ended yet?

"Sure is does", was their confident response as they smiled and opened their bibles to find the verse that they all expected to teach what they believe it taught....

Only to have their smiles fade from their faces as they began to stumble from one page of the Bible to the next as they desperately searched for an expected teaching that simply is not found in the Bible...







Its just like the post we saw by Jude a while back that suggested that the idea of an old Earth is a very new conclusion within the Christian church.

Thats just dead wrong!

The idea that the "days" talked about in Genesis cant be automatically ***umed to be just normal 24 hour days goes back to the very beginnings of Christian Bible scholarship.

Lets name-drop a few here now :

Justin Martyr ...

Origen ...

Augustine...


So the modern teaching known as "theistic evolution" draws on the ancient tradition of understanding Genesis in light of our current knowledge about the universe.




Thus - what Im teaching here today is completely within the normal ways great Christians teachers have addressed the Book of Genesis in the past.

[disciple]

I could go on.......

I just wanted to make sure everyone watching this topic understands that "Alan knows his stuff".

You do realize now that I'm always absolutely right all the time ,correct?





“For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.” Mat 12:34

[alanmolstad]

“For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.” Mat 12:34


I'm full of truth...

I'm not sure as for others?..

When I say something it's only after I have done my research, looked at the Scripture, checked the reference, listened to the teaching.
Thus when I speak I speak from knowledge and understanding.

That's also why when I post something on this Forum it's something you can bank-on being correct.


That may be also why when some people that dont do the needed research, don't dare look at the Scripture, never bother to check the reference, nor listen to the teacher , always seem to post an idea that ****s up in their face!

[disciple]

I'm full of truth...

I'm not sure as for others?..

When I say something it's only after I have done my research, looked at the Scripture, checked the reference, listened to the teaching.
Thus when I speak I speak from knowledge and understanding.

That's also why when I post something on this Forum it's something you can bank-on being correct.


That may be also why when some people that dont do the needed research, don't dare look at the Scripture, never bother to check the reference, nor listen to the teacher , always seem to post an idea that ****s up in their face!

Alan,

So far you have ignored all legitimate posts in this attempt at a discussion. You have ignored proven scientific laws that refute evolution, the same science you run to whenever it suits your purposes. You have ignored many verses of scripture, in context, that refute your belief in evolution. You have ignored the very words of Jesus that verify the creation account in Genesis, a creation that does not include evolution, chance or death. And why? The answer is here from your own lips," I just wanted to make sure everyone watching this topic understands that "Alan knows his stuff".
So you really can't see what's wrong with that thinking?

[MichaellS]

You are promoting Heresy Alan.


that junk is just your personal opinion
Do you really think i care about your personal opinions?

Anyone following this thread who exhibits one s**** of control for thought as Christ desires, do consider this quote of his a little further; for when the time is right on issues that do come up, , oh yes, spirit-#170* does care, especially if he sees a victory to support his view by the much needed word.

Obviously, from the start of this thread, it is no surprise when someone introduces correction in the word, or the voice of Christians speaking the same tone comes forward as one, he walks away from it, , in this case, correcting ourselves towards stability on “evolution”.

But allow me to mention something on that so-called “care” he reportedly chooses when and where to incorporate. I think he is selectively very active when it really does matter to him. When he mentions he doesn’t “care” it is untrustworthy hogwash, I think it is just more damage control. I think this has been a teachable account to the mind of one that submits to something that steals a portion of sensitivity for openness. So very, very sad, what a waste

For he dare not consider directly contesting the voice of Christian unity on this site/issue, that is too close to home. We must go a fetch another video. Why? Because it frees up being engaged in responsibility for oneself, it frees up being entangled from reasoning with us since that would require him to provide an open mind to prove the claim against the weight of the word. Something he repeatedly wants to confuse with a lack of promotion.

As for what gets under Alan’s skin to amount to his version of “care”, I think have seen it before. Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine. The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day. The poster just about had me pinned when at last I provided the sought after proof, I might add, deep proof and thereafter never recovered from me carrying the discussion’s logic in a sling.

Keeping in mind, that heated contention was specifically contingent in the word for all involved, and like evolution, also an issue of being known to resist correction by many church-minded folks who are themselves in error. Was Alan following the thread for which he might have been silently opposing me on? Who knows? One thing is certain, the pro/con at***ude on that issue are very dear to both.

This I did notice interestingly enough, I think he was and did “care” on that occasion to read along, with that discussion he thought the poster was sure to win big over me on, , this thing which continues to be very controversial. Regardless, for what followed, Alan then vanished for a trust me - un-customarily long long time.

Do we believe him when he says he doesn’t “care”? It may just be, the distant rumblings of detonations that are set off are eventually decided upon just how destructive, or successful they were, depending on your “personal opinion”.

*”who was and is and is to come”

[MichaellS]

Lengthy second attempt.


Anyone following this thread who exhibits one s**** of control for thought as Christ desires, do consider this quote of his a little further; for when the time is right on issues that do come up, , oh yes, spirit-#179* does care, especially if he sees a victory to support his view by the much needed word.

Obviously, from the start of this thread, it is no surprise when someone introduces correction in the word, or the voice of Christians speaking the same tone comes forward as one, he walks away from it, , in this case, correcting ourselves towards stability on “evolution”.

But allow me to mention something on that so-called “care” he reportedly chooses when and where to incorporate. I think he is selectively very active when it really does matter to him. When he mentions he doesn’t “care” it is untrustworthy hogwash, I think it is just more damage control. I think this has been a teachable account to the mind of one that submits to something that steals a portion of sensitivity for openness. So very, very sad, what a waste

For he dare not consider directly contesting the voice of Christian unity on this site/issue, that is too close to home. We must go a fetch another video. Why? Because it frees up being engaged in responsibility for oneself, it frees up being entangled from reasoning with us since that would require him to provide an open mind to prove the claim against the weight of the word. Something he repeatedly wants to confuse with a lack of promotion.

As for what gets under Alan’s skin to amount to his version of “care”, I think have seen it before. Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine. The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day. The poster just about had me pinned when at last I provided the sought after proof, I might add, deep proof and thereafter never recovered from me carrying the discussion’s logic in a sling.

Keeping in mind, that heated contention was specifically contingent in the word for all involved, and like evolution, also an issue of being known to resist correction by many church-minded folks who are themselves in error. Was Alan following the thread for which he might have been silently opposing me on? Who knows? One thing is certain, the pro/con at***ude on that issue are very dear to both.

This I did notice interestingly enough, I think he was and did “care” on that occasion to read along, with that discussion he thought the poster was sure to win big over me on, , this thing which continues to be very controversial. Regardless, for what followed, Alan then vanished for a trust me - un-customarily long long time.

Do we believe him when he says he doesn’t “care”? It may just be, the distant rumblings of detonations that are set off are eventually decided upon just how destructive, or successful they were, depending on your “personal opinion”.

*”who was and is and is to come”

[alanmolstad]

Alan,

So far you have ignored all legitimate posts in this attempt at a discussion.
Nope, thats wrong,
I actually have been the lone voice asking people to open their bibles and to check out the Scriptures that Im talking about to see if I am quoting them correctly.

I have always suggested that if a person disagrees with my teachings that they should open their own Bible and share the Scriptures that they think do not support my views.

But in response to my request to "Keep it centered on the Bible", what do I receive in return?...personal smears, and the standard attack against evolution- "Evolution is the work of the Boogeyman" :)

Be that as it may, Im still going to keep suggesting that if anyone wants to learn what genesis is teaching us, all they have to do is grab their Bible, and follow along as i go over what Genesis is teaching.

If they have even the slightest doubt that the Bible is actually saying what I claim it says?...then go read the verse Im talking about to see what it truly says there...


it's that simple.

check out every verse i list to see if what im says is true....(Just like they did with the techings of Paul)

[MichaellS]

Nope, thats wrong,
I actually have been the lone voice asking people to open their bibles and to check out the Scriptures that Im talking about to see if I am quoting them correctly.

I have always suggested that if a person disagrees with my teachings that they should open their own Bible and share the Scriptures that they think do not support my views.

But in response to my request to "Keep it centered on the Bible", what do I receive in return?...personal smears, and the standard attack against evolution- "Evolution is the work of the Boogeyman" :)

Be that as it may, Im still going to keep suggesting that if anyone wants to learn what genesis is teaching us, all they have to do is rb their Bible, and follow along as i go over what Genesis is teaching. If they have even the slightest doubt that the Bible is actually saying what I claim it says?...then go read the verse Im talking about to see what it truy says there...


check out every verse i list to see if what im says is true....(Just like they did with the techings of Paul)

I second that Disciple. Translation provided:

Promotion vs Discussion

Please stop devaluing the latter.

[alanmolstad]

I second that Disciple.
.well you can do whatever you want..

The truth is, i dont understand most of your posts and I doubt I ever will.

so you can have fun, agree with whomever you want, I dont really care..

[MichaellS]

well you can do whatever you want..

The truth is, i dont understand most of your posts and I doubt I ever will.

so you can have fun, agree with whomever you want, I dont really care..

Well then let me take this opportunity to scale it back for you.

Here we have a blatant chance to discuss the difference between the two items mentioned in my last post and detailed in Disciple’s:

Promotion and Discussion

What may I ask prevents you from speaking with people rather than down to them from your promotional perch? Keep in mind the word of emphasis – PROMOTION.

Sounds pretty simple in my book.

And you haven’t ignored? Ha!

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine. The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day.


I need a bit more information about that topic you are pointing us too....

I dont remember it off-hand, but I am sure that if I did post something there that it was pithy.




(and if I had to spank someone's errors with the Bible's truths, then Im not surprised later to find that someone has it in for me and seeks to find some way to even the score)


but like i said, be that as it may I will keep asking people to put my views to the test as they did with the teachings of Paul...

[alanmolstad]

What may I ask prevents you from speaking with people rather than down to them from your promotional perch?




I speak only what I read in the Scriptures...

If you want to stand on equal footing with me, guess what you have to do then?

[alanmolstad]

Alan,

You have ignored proven scientific laws that refute evolution,

I dont defend evolution....
I dont teach evolution...

I simply point out to people that if you stick to the words found in Genesis, that nothing there teaches against evolution.

I believe that evolution and genesis walk hand in hand, and offer the student a well-rounded view of the same earth history...

[alanmolstad]

t "Alan knows his stuff".



One time I was teaching a sunday school adult cl***, and we got into the whole genesis/evolution topic...and after cl*** one of the other students came up to me and asked why I seemd to know everything on this topic?

I answered and said that I dont know everything, I just know well what I know....

I do the research.

I stuck to the Bible too, that's the key thing with me.
I stick to the words found in the text.

I dont add
I dont fake
I dont need to lie or misquote.

I just read it and believe it.


thats why people do so poorly against me in a debate on Genesis, for when they take me on there, they are walking into my kitchen and that's where I do my cooking!

[MichaellS]

Repeat is so tiresome

[MichaellS]

Repeat is so tiresome

[MichaellS]

Fifth attempt, Where is my comment?

Sorry if I don’t understand your refusal to come to the table openly.

How would I do what we all request if I were you? Sure, glad you asked, be glad to show you.

Per Disciple’s post # 215


Oh, sorry I missed those. But man, that is quite a bit to ask isn’t it? I mean, I got to guard my convictions you know? People can say just about anything, but I’ll tell you what, how about if I just say for now, I’ll try harder at discussion, okay?

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, we have just committed ourselves to too many circles. Would this be acceptable dialog?

[alanmolstad]

Fifth attempt, Where is my comment?

Sorry if I don’t understand your refusal to come to the table openly.

How would I do what we all request if I were you? Sure, glad you asked, be glad to show you.

Per Disciple’s post # 215



I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, we have just committed ourselves to too many circles. Would this be acceptable dialog?


I have no idea what you are attempting to say?...

I do not understand much of anything you post on the forum.

[alanmolstad]

You seem unable to post sentences that I can read and understand.


Your posts to me read like a stringing together of dissociated words, picked at random.

[alanmolstad]

Moving on-



I believe later today I would like to share my thoughts on the following teachings that I find in my Bible...

Animals died before the sin of Adam.
All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.

Please let me know if you would like to see the scripture reference that supports each of these teachings?

[MichaellS]

You seem unable to post sentences that I can read and understand.


Your posts to me read like a stringing together of dissociated words, picked at random.

No problem,

Can you define the difference between promotion and discussion?

[alanmolstad]

No problem,

Can you define the difference between promotion and discussion?well..I guess i could look it up, if you demand my definition be totally correct...

But off hand I would say that on a message forum such as this you find that the posts are a mix of many forms of interactions.

I cant speak for others and what they may be doing, But I can share what i come here to accomplish.

I like to write.
I like to write on things I believe are true and supported by the Bible.
I like to dig into why I believe the things that I believe.
Many times there is a topic going that I might have a general feeling about, yet have never bothered to put my thoughts down in a written form.
So this forum allows me a chance to really see what I believe, to really find out how strongly I think about some topics.

Im not at all interested in showing up here to learn anything from other people.

But if asked, I do enjoy showing others what I believe and why, ...


Some of the things you will note about my writings is that I tend to not post on a topic that I have not done research on.
I dont post a lot of comments on the Mormon section.
I dont post things Im not well-schooled in and have a history dealing with.
This allows me to only post comments that are things that are true....and able to be put to the test.

If I post that I think that the Mormon Smith was a dirty old man, its because i think I can back that up.


I invite people to regard my views with suspicion,and to question the things I say the bible teaches.
I only ask that they put my views to the same test that they put the teachings of Paul to.

Now what am I here to promote?......Im here to promote truth.
I support the idea that a Bible student can open his bible and read the words as they appear and find the same truth that I claim.
I push people all the time to put down their fancy YEC textbooks, and read the Bible to see what it really says, and not just depend on a textbook to tell them what it means.

I am not at all interested in any discussion that cast doubt on the right and need Bible students have to dig into the story of genesis as deeply as I do in the search for truth.

Im not at all interested in any discussion where the idea is being promoted that we should not call into question many YEC teachings that lack support in the text.

Im not at all interested in any discussion that might suggest some topics are "off-limits" for Christians to question.



when I quote a Bible verse and say "it teaches that animals and humans share a source", I expect the person that might disagree with me to open their Bible and share a verse too.
Im not at all interested the posts of people that simply keep saying, "Evolution is of the devil"...as if that personal opinion of their's mattered to anyone at all...


so in other words....If Im able to quote Genesis to prove my ideas, you better be able to quote genesis to prove yours in response, or I have little time to all that other personal ****.

[alanmolstad]

One time I was in a small group Bible setting, and I was sharing what the Bible taught as to the fact that there is no end to the 7th day, and that God made the sun before the 4th day etc, and the teacher of this little cl*** was dumbfounded at what i was saying.

He kept saying, I was not taking the Bible story literal....

So I cut thought his fog by asking him the same question I asked here (and never got an answr to by the way)
I asked him, "The Young Earthers claim that the Bible teaches that God created the light before there was a sun, but what does the bible literally say in black and white was the very first thing God created "In the beginning"?


I loved his response,for he thought about my question for a moment, then considered what the Bible said...and then shrugged and said,
""Heavens", but you cant that that literal"

[alanmolstad]

Take for instance a heated discussion I had with a poster on this site on another issue who I later found out Alan was much in agreement with and not mine.

The topic and intricacies are irrelevant but curiously enough, while Alan wasn’t in the discussion I have reason to believe he was contributing much care that day.


what topic was that?

what did I say?

How was I in error?

Let me guess...I was promoting the Golden Rule again?

[alanmolstad]

Animals died before the sin of Adam.There is nothing in the bible that says animals could not die before the sin of Adam.
it's that simple.

The Bible does not teach that animals die due to the sin of Adam...well, except for the animals like sheep and doves that die due to being killed as a sacrifice.








All life, both human and animals life is from the same single source.
The single source for all life, is the earth itself.

In evolution we trace back all life to the very starting point we find that the first building blocks of life are made of the earth itself.
So in a very real way, we are a part of the earth that has come to life.

The book of Genesis agrees with evolution on this matter.
In the Bible we find that all animal and all humans share a common source.
That source is said to be this earth itself too.

So when you trace back evolution to the starting point, the place you get to is where we also start in genesis.

[alanmolstad]

So to sum up:

theistic-evolution works fine next to the teachings of the bible and the teaching of science.

I believe that theistic evolution has a lot of merit, that it reflects the world around us, and represents a concept that works hand-in-hand with the story of genesis.


This is why we dont have to worry that Genesis does not teach evolution,
Nor do we have to worry that evolution has no place for God's hand.

[alanmolstad]

>>>>>>>as I have said...OVER AND OVER.....



I can remember many times when Dr Walter Martin was asked a question about Genesis or evolution, Walter would always give his answer in such a way as to always allow for the vast age of the earth required by evolution.

As I also said many times, Im not really sure if Walter actually believed in evolution,but i do know that he made a special point each time he answers such questions on the story of Genesis that he would make sure everyone understood that there is nothing in the Bible that says the earth could not be millions of years old...

Im glad to see that the current Bible Answer Man also has taken a stand against the teaching of the Young Earth gang....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF439O_-jMM
bump...........

[jude1:3]

Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and Whoever Loves and Practices A Lie.



Revelation 22:14-15

[alanmolstad]

And YEC is that lie...

[jude1:3]

And YEC is that lie...


Repent Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Repent Alan.
Say there guy...did you happen to catch the fact that I posted more than enough support for my post about the current BIBLE ANSWER MAN?

[alanmolstad]

I tend to only post things I have plenty of support for.

That fact must come as a bit of a disoppointment for some of you guys .

[alanmolstad]

I tend to only post things I have plenty of support for.

That fact must come as a bit of a disoppointment for some of you guys .

[jude1:3]

Say there guy...did you happen to catch the fact that I posted more than enough support for my post about the current BIBLE ANSWER MAN?



It's not a big deal that you don't support YEC. That's fine.

My Protest is against you supporting Evolution and more specifically Macroevolution.

[alanmolstad]

It's not a big deal that you don't support YEC. That's fine.

My Protest is against you supporting Evolution and more specifically Macroevolution.I will have to back up here and check..it seemed at the time it was a big deal to someone...

[alanmolstad]

Once again Alan is zealous without correct knowledge.
.........[/B]

I think I more that proved that I have a lot more knowledge of the position of the Bible Answer Man (both the original and the current) on this issue, than Disciple give me credit for.

[alanmolstad]

It's not a big deal that you don't support YEC. That's fine.

My Protest is against you supporting Evolution and more specifically Macroevolution.

I don't try to teach evolution...
and so I don't defend evolution as well...

Im simply saying that evolution as taught by science works hand in hand with the story of genesis.

I also teach that if you stick to the words found in Genesis, that you will NOT FIND any anti-evolution arguments in the text at all !



I really dont care if a person believes in evolution or not...its not a finished science and so I just dont think thats as big of a deal as believing in a Young Earth.

its the YEC teachings that I believe are very, very harmful to the church.

I fight them where i can....

I know a lot of the flaws with the YEC teachings, I I bring them up....Thats why the YEC believers dont like it when I speak up, because they know if they were to take me on with the Bible that have not got a chance.

They dont have any ammo...
There is nothing in the bible to support the YEC teachings...
All there is to back up the YEC are the YEC textbooks...


Here is another little flaw in the YEC teachings- They dont come up with any new stuff.
All the many hundreds and hundreds of books, and websites are all just quoting the same stuff over and over....they may put new words to things, but its all the same stuff just re-marketed by people to look fresh but its all just based on the word of Henry Morris.

and Morris was in error.

[alanmolstad]

I remember once I was posting on Genesis on a different message forum, and i was asked, (demanded) by the Mod to be in a debate...a real official debate with the forum's main YEC teacher.

I really did not want to, but they said I could not post anymore on any topic unless i agreed.

They did a lotof little pro-mos for the debate and they had a ton of rules I had to follow.

When the debate started I told the guy I was not there to teach or defend evolution, but I was going to center my side of the debate on what the Bible says.



Lets just say that did not go over well.




It seems that all the stuff the YEC guy was ready to attack me with had to deal with evolution.
He wanted me to defend evolution....
No, he NEEDED me to defend evolution!

It was right then I learned that the YEC argument is not based on the Bible, its not pro-Bible....what it is is Anti-evolution.

I also learned that if I did not offer a defense of evolution then the YEC person is left high and dry....they dont have anything to share..

All they got are Anti-evolution arguments, they dont have any knowledge of the Bible, they have never really dealt with the genesis text apart from their YEC textbooks.
When I asked the starting question I always asked, "What does the Bible literally say God created first In The Beginning?", it started a huge fight ....the guy I was debating simply was never going to allow me to talk about the Bible...He knew full well that if I was allowed to talk about what the bible said, that I would show that YEC teachings are a house of cards that is easy to tip over.


When I would get called to visit home fellowships and give my little talk on Genesis, I would run into the same arguments, from the same books most every time...YEC teachings are a cancer within the Bible of Christ...and I deal with it the same way I still do...With the Scriptures!

[jude1:3]

Hopefully The Lord Jesus Christ will have mercy on you for promoting this heretical lie.