Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

[disciple]

Creation occurred in six literal, consecutive days. (Gen 1, Ex 20:11) The Hebrew word for day, yom, always means literal, consecutive days when modified by a plural number. Yom was defined as a literal day when it was first used. (Gen 1:4,5) Each creation day had only one “evening and morning.”

On the fourth creation day, the Sun, Moon, and stars were made. (Gen 1:14–19) If the word “day” in Genesis 1:14 means a long period, what do the words “year” or “night” mean in those verses?

To survive, plants need the Sun and animals—especially insects. All were created within three literal days of each other. (Gen 1:11–23) Had it taken much longer, plants could not have survived. (Gen 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31)

If evolution happened, then death was widespread before man evolved. But if death preceded man and was not a result of Adam’s sin, then sin is not the cause of death—so we do not need a Savior.

Jesus always spoke the truth; in fact, He said He was the truth (Jn 14:6), and scripture is the truth (Jn 17:17). Certainly, Jesus knew the truth, because He was there in the beginning, and all things came into being through Him. (Jn 1:3) To say that Jesus knew the Bible contained false history, but didn’t want to tell people the truth, belies who Jesus was. He didn’t hide false ideas; He exposed them. He called the Old Testament writers, including Moses, who compiled Genesis 1–11, prophets. (Jn 5:46–47) By definition, prophets, when speaking God’s message, always spoke the truth. False prophets were stoned to death.

Jesus was not constrained by culture, tradition, science, or concern of misunderstandings (Mt 5:1–12, Jn 6:53). Nor did He avoid subjects that were hard for listeners to understand, such as: end-times (Mt 24), the new birth (Jn 3:1–12), His crucifixion (Mt 12:40, Mk 8:31), or what follows death (Mt: 25:32–46, Jn 14:2). Jesus specifically referred to accounts in each of the first seven chapters of Genesis, something He would not have done if He knew they were not historical events. If we replace Jesus’ words with our ideas and claim they were “His real intent,” we can seemingly justify almost anything.

[jude1:3]

Also, if there was any truth to evolution then the prophets, The Lord Jesus Christ, The Apostles or even The Church fathers would have written about it but they didn't.

It is a modern day Heresy created by unsaved and evil men.

[alanmolstad]

4
Also, if there was any truth to evolution then the prophets, The Lord Jesus Christ, The Apostles or even The Church fathers would have written about it .
says who?

[jude1:3]

4
says who?



You just Love Evolution don't you.


But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and Whoever Loves and Practices A Lie.

[jude1:3]

You just Love Evolution don't you.


But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and Whoever Loves and Practices A Lie.


Revelation 22:15

[alanmolstad]

On the fourth creation day, the Sun, Moon, and stars were made..are you sure it says the sun and moon were made on the 4th day?

you better go check the text before you answer...

[disciple]

are you sure it says the sun and moon were made on the 4th day?

you better go check the text before you answer...

"Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day." Gen 1:16-19

[alanmolstad]

"Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day." Gen 1:16-19



oh I know there was light,,,,and we see that the topic of the 4th day deals with the amount of light, (greater and lesser)...
But i was just asking if the Bible says that the "sun" was made on the 4th day?


check the text ....

[alanmolstad]

so what Im saying is this:

That the Bible tells us when the sun was created,and its not on the 4thday.

the one single correct Bible word for all the stars in the night sky, and all the other things in outer space (such a planets,and blackholes, and dark matter, and all the things I dont even know the name for) , all that "space stuff' is correctly called by the one single Bible word of - "heavens"

The term "Heavens" can be used correctly to talk about all that space stuff.

and then when does the Bible teach that God made all this "Space stuff" like our sun?...."In the beginning"!!!!!!




So this means that right at the very startof the creation story we find God busy creating the source for all the light we will be reading about in the Genesis story!

there is no need to invent a "source-less light"....for the source is already made at Genesis 1:1and its still there inthe sky today!

[alanmolstad]

"So Alan what is it talking about on the 4th day then?"


Im glad you asked that.

The answer is, "Exactly what it says its talking about....'light" and the amount of light seen on the earth.

Some greater, some lesser....

so the "sun" is not said to be created on the 4th day at all...and that fits with Gen 1:1 when the heavens (including the stars like our sun) were created in the beginning.
But what are reading about on the 4th day is a changing in the AMOUNTS of light seen...

Thats why the Bible makes use of the term "Greater" and "Lesser" for they are terms that talk about the AMOUNT of light seen, not their source!!!!!!!!!

(Did everybody catch that?...Greater and lesser are terms that talk about "amounts" of light)

Their source is already created on Day 1....but on day 4 we clearly have a change in the AMOUNTS seen.




Now you can ask me"why ?.......I have lots to say about that too... :)








Basically what im teaching here is just looking at the text as it is written, and saying,"Amen"....
i dont feel the need to add to the text at all.

If the Bible says that the first things God made in the beginning were the "Heavens" i say, "Amen"...
I dont need to twist things around so that it has to teach something that it clearly does not say in black and white.

The same thing is true for the events of the 4th day too!
The bible teaches us that on the 4th day we see changes on the amount of light seen...
greater and lesser" are terms that talk about the amount of light.

I dont need to twist anything else into the 4th day.

If the Bible tells me that greater and lesser light was seen, i say "Amen"....


Why cant we just believe the Bible as written?

[jude1:3]

The Fruits of Evolution are:


* Atheism

* Social Darwinism

* Racism

* Eugenics

* No Moral Absolutes

[disciple]

oh I know there was light,,,,and we see that the topic of the 4th day deals with the amount of light, (greater and lesser)...
But i was just asking if the Bible says that the "sun" was made on the 4th day?


check the text ....

Alan, you better check the text. "Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night"
Every reputable commentary concludes that these "two" lights are the sun and the moon, where did you get the idea that these "two" lights are not the sun and the moon. Who taught you that? Or is that your own conclusion?

[alanmolstad]

Alan, you better check the text. "Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night"
Every reputable commentary concludes that these "two" lights are the sun and the moon, where did you get the idea that these "two" lights are not the sun and the moon. Who taught you that? Or is that your own conclusion?

no...check to see if the text actually says that the "sun" was made then...

Check is the text actually says that the "moon' was made then.


Oh.....and as for the stars, many people believe that the Bible teaches that the stars were made on the 4th day....do you see that in your Bible?

If you do, then you better check the King James and look for the hints about the words that are added to the Text in that verse by the editors of other bibles.....the King James bible will show you the added words.


Imjust suggesting you read the Bible, not add any words to the text, and believe what you read and not need to appeal to commentary.


I mean if the Bible were written so that just to understand it you needed to wait for a commentary to tell you what it says, you are out of luck then if you dont got a handy commentary around I guess......


Butif the bible were written in such a way as to just read it,stick to the words you see there, and you can believe it as its written, then all people in every place and in every time can learn from the Bible....even if they never have a "commentary" to set them straight on some teaching that might not be in the Bible as it appears, but were just stuff the commentary wanted you to believe 'should" have been in the Bible had they been in charge of making it....




So......what so wrong with believing the Bible as its written?

Why cant we believe the writer of the Genesis story used the correct words?

Why cant 'light" be talking about "light"?

[jude1:3]

no...check to see if the text actually says that the "sun" was made then...

Check is the text actually says that the "moon' was made then.


Oh.....and as for the stars, many people believe that the Bible teaches that the stars were made on the 4th day....do you see that in your Bible?

If you do, then you better check the King James and look for the hints about the words that are added to the Text in that verse by the editors of other bibles.....the King James bible will show you the added words.


Imjust suggesting you read the Bible, not add any words to the text, and believe what you read and not need to appeal to commentary.


I mean if the Bible were written so that just to understand it you needed to wait for a commentary to tell you what it says, you are out of luck then if you dont got a handy commentary around I guess......


Butif the bible were written in such a way as to just read it,stick to the words you see there, and you can believe it as its written, then all people in every place and in every time can learn from the Bible....even if they never have a "commentary" to set them straight on some teaching that might not be in the Bible as it appears, but were just stuff the commentary wanted you to believe 'should" have been in the Bible had they been in charge of making it....




So......what so wrong with believing the Bible as its written?

Why cant we believe the writer of the Genesis story used the correct words?

Why cant 'light" be talking about "light"?




This is Just One Giant Run On Sentence with No Real Substance.

[disciple]

no...check to see if the text actually says that the "sun" was made then...

Check is the text actually says that the "moon' was made then.


Oh.....and as for the stars, many people believe that the Bible teaches that the stars were made on the 4th day....do you see that in your Bible?

If you do, then you better check the King James and look for the hints about the words that are added to the Text in that verse by the editors of other bibles.....the King James bible will show you the added words.


Imjust suggesting you read the Bible, not add any words to the text, and believe what you read and not need to appeal to commentary.


I mean if the Bible were written so that just to understand it you needed to wait for a commentary to tell you what it says, you are out of luck then if you dont got a handy commentary around I guess......


Butif the bible were written in such a way as to just read it,stick to the words you see there, and you can believe it as its written, then all people in every place and in every time can learn from the Bible....even if they never have a "commentary" to set them straight on some teaching that might not be in the Bible as it appears, but were just stuff the commentary wanted you to believe 'should" have been in the Bible had they been in charge of making it....




So......what so wrong with believing the Bible as its written?

Why cant we believe the writer of the Genesis story used the correct words?

Why cant 'light" be talking about "light"?

Alan, the KJ says God made "two" great lights and set "them" in the heavens on day four. Really, what more do you need to show that these are the sun and the moon?

[alanmolstad]

Alan, the KJ says God made "two" great lights and set "them" in the heavens on day four. Really, what more do you need to show that these are the sun and the moon?
what if its just what it says it is?

how would that chage your views on what is being taught?

What if you dont need to replace any words in the text at all?

what if you believe it as it appears?


what if the writer had WANTED to talk about the things he wrote down?

what if the writer did not need you to fix things ?





In other words.....what if the writer of this story had wanted to talk about the greater and lesser amounts of light that changed on the 4th day?......and so that is why he talks about the greater and lesser amounts of light!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Just for me, I want you to try to read the text one time and believe it as it appears, regardless if this then agrees with YEC or not.

this means that when you read that God made all the "Heavens" first at the very start,"In the beginning" you believed it...

[alanmolstad]

I look forward to your findings...

[jude1:3]

I'm seriousely surprised that you are defending evolution when it is such an anti Christian theory that has done so much to destroy the faith of people's belief in God. Not just in the Christian belief in God but other faiths also.

Also, it was created by ungodly men specifially to decieve and curupt the world view of people and especially young people in universitys.

[alanmolstad]

What I do is quote the bible....ever see me not?

[alanmolstad]

What's the first thing that the bible listed that God created in the beginning? ...

You will either answer based on the text or you will try to dodge around what you see clearly the text says.

What will you do?

[jude1:3]

How many people have come to believe in The Lord Jesus Christ through Evolution compared to being converted to atheism through evolution ?

[alanmolstad]

What's the first thing that the bible listed that God created in the beginning? ...



and the answer is- "In the beginning, God Created the HEAVENS and the EARTH"





So the Bible lists the "Heavens"as the very first thing God created.
Thats not my opinion, thats what the Text says.
Some YEC teachers might not like it, but thats too bad, the Text says what the Text says.....

I just read it and believe it.

[alanmolstad]

now why dont YEC teachers like to answer my question asked above about the first things God created in the story?.....The ANSWER is- that they dont like what the Bible says because it totally will mess up what they teach about Young Earth Creationism.

Its that simple....
They dont like what the Bible teaches so that dont answer my questions about that topic.

What will they do when I ask them what the Bible says?....The try to change the topic...they bring up stuff not connected to my question in the hope of getting off the topic of what the Bible teaches....

[jude1:3]

You shouldn't call it evolution. You should call it YEC vs Really Old Earth or something else because honestly evolution only leads to atheism.

[alanmolstad]

thus......when I ask the question about what the Bible says.....you can learn what side of this question you are on by your answer..

Willyou read the Text and believe it as written?

or -

Willyou try to ignore what the Bible says in black and white, and try also to change the topic?





If you can answer my question about what the Bible says at Gen 1:1 then you are on the Lord's side.....you trust the bible .

But if you have to twist out of answering?.....You are on the side of the YEC , the side of "men's thinking"...and false ideas.





So I ask then- "At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible list as the very first thing God created In the beginning?"

[jude1:3]

Atheists believe in Evolution Alan because that is where evolution leads them.

[alanmolstad]

or -

Will you try to ignore what the Bible says in black and white, and try also to change the topic?







You have your answer....
your actions speak ...

[alanmolstad]

Walter martin always allowed for the fact that the earth is old.....millions and billions of years old...

You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

[alanmolstad]

Walter martin always allowed for the fact that the earth is old.....millions and billions of years old...

You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

[jude1:3]

You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

Sure, sounds good.

[alanmolstad]

Ken Samples: “I think the age of the earth and universe is a very important scientific and apologetics topic. I also think it is quite appropriate for Christians to engage in debates and dialogues concerning these controversial science-faith issues. Unfortunately, this has become a very contentious topic for many Christians. Some believers seem to struggle to treat the people with whom they differ over this issue with appropriate respect and grace.

Personally, I’m persuaded that science overwhelmingly supports the old-earth creationist position and that the position is quite compatible with a viable interpretation of Scripture.

https://chab123.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/ten-questions-with-ken-samples/

[alanmolstad]

so...Ken Samples, (the guy I liked the best of all the people that would cover for walter martin on his Bible Answer Man show), holds to a "Old earth Creationist"position.

But what is that position?

Lets look it up!

[alanmolstad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Earth_creationism


I believe that this also was the basic position that was shared also by Walter Martin....
Walter had to answer the common questions about Genesis all the time on his radio show,and in his answers Walter always allowed for the millions and billions of years of history...

Walter was not afraid that the earth was very, very old....and that creatures lived and died for millions and millions of years before the rise of modern man.

Now when we checked on what "Old Earth Creationism" means, what we find is that its a large set of different understandings that have some connections with each other...

and also when we read about what is known as OEC we see the heading of "Theistic evolution".

[alanmolstad]

so Theistic evolution (what I believe) is connected closely with Old Earth Creationism (what Ken Samples believes) and Ken's position is what Walter Martin taught in his answers on the show....


It's all basically the same idea.

That idea is that the earth is here because god created it,and that life is here because god created it,and that nothing in the story of Genesis stands against science and/or evolution....That the two works (evolution and Genesis)can work to help us understand this creation...

[alanmolstad]

so what Im showing here is that the Theistic evolution position is a very well respected position within the Christian church.

Im also showing that many of the very preachers within the church that are the most respected ( like Martin and Samples) share with me the idea that the earth is very old.

This is why it is so silly for people to react sometimes the way they do here...Just because a person believes that the earth is old does not mean that the "sky is falling"...

[jude1:3]

I understand what you are saying. I would still try to distance myself from the term evolution though.

[alanmolstad]

I understand what you are saying. I would still try to distance myself from the term evolution though.
As Walter martin used to say when answering questions about Evolution , "What difference does it make?..Whether life on the earth was created in 6 days, or whether it evolved in a billion years, the point is that God created that life"


I do not defend evolution, nor do I teach it...
But what I do do is teach that there is nothing in the Bible that stands against evolution, nor are there any anti-evolution arguments in the genesis story.
And that both evolution and genesis can work hand in hand to offer the student of the Bible a well-rounded understanding of early earth history.

In my view, evolution is just a tool of the Lord...its no more evil than air ,or rain, or gravity, or any of the natural laws that are in the world around us....
and as such it should be respected as a tool of the Lord's hands.

[jude1:3]

In my view, evolution is just a tool of the Lord...its no more evil than air ,or rain, or gravity, or any of the natural laws that are in the world around us....
and as such it should be respected as a tool of the Lord's hands.

*Sigh* A tool of The Lord would never promote atheism and racism. The theory of evolution was created by evil unsaved and unbelieving men to promote disbelief.

[alanmolstad]

god made water too, and men can use water for good or evil.....but shall we blame the water?

Evolution is a natural part of God's creation... It's no more evil that rain or sunshine.

men can use the things that are made for good or evil it is true, the Bible was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, yet it has been used by men to do many people great harm....

shall we blame God?...

shall we blame the Bible?

[MichaellS]

As Walter martin used to say when answering questions about Evolution , "What difference does it make?..Whether life on the earth was created in 6 days, or whether it evolved in a billion years, the point is that God created that life"


I do not defend evolution, nor do I teach it....


Evolution is, ,

Gasp, Quick, someone hand me something to cover the nakedness. Really chief, you say “I don’t teach” but do. You say you don’t, but after your denials of instruction in it, deny that denial by informing the reader on evolution. You say you don’t, but through hoodwinking techniques hopes the reader will buy it? Ridiculous.

Yet, an interesting quote you’ve brought to bare, as it does exactly what Jude1:3 suggests and is no more a comment towards a tool of evolution than anyone could possibly support. To suggest that is an inflammatory remark on his words. You can take a slice of wording and make it say about anything you want to, but until an author (Mr. Martin) comes out with an extensive and repeat comment that supports an issue, even within the space of a paragraph, the effort to extract becomes obvious. I'm honestly sorry if that is too blunt, but I'm afraid that is too much to swallow unless you have some more.

[alanmolstad]

..... I'm honestly sorry if that is too blunt,

Oh not at all.
As Ive told you before, I dont really understand anything you post.

In fact, most of the time when I attempt to read something you have written I find myself comparing reading your words to listening to my aquarium pump.....I know its making noise but it dont really involve me personally....

and on the topic of how people post on this issue-


Mostly I see that the difference in how I post and how the people that disagree with me post is this:
When I post on this topic I try to stick to the text of the Bible and show what the text says in black and white, and how it works and what it means and how this all teaches us many important things.

When the other guys post they mostly just insult me.....



thats the difference.

[MichaellS]

Oh not at all.
As Ive told you before, I dont really understand anything you post.

In fact, most of the time when I attempt to read something you have written I find myself comparing reading your words to listening to my aquarium pump.....I know its making noise but it dont really involve me personally....

and on the topic of how people post on this issue-

Mostly I see that the difference in how I post and how the people that disagree with me post is this:
When I post on this topic I try to stick to the text of the Bible and show what the text says in black and white, and how it works and what it means and how this all teaches us many important things.

When the other guys post they mostly just insult me.....

thats the difference.

Okay, so when you say you “don’t teach evolution”, it isn’t to be taken at face-value. What you want the reader to know is that you don’t add random thought on evolution, but teach evolution as taken from the word of God. Is that what you are saying?

[alanmolstad]

Okay, so when you say you “don’t teach evolution”, it isn’t to be taken at face-value. What you want the reader to know is that you don’t add random thought on evolution, but teach evolution as taken from the word of God. Is that what you are saying?

I will tell you a little story about what I mean when I say, "I don't teach or defend evolution"



Many, many years ago...

I was locked in an argument with a bunch of guys who were on this forum attacking my views on Genesis, and one of them told me about a different forum where they invited me to go check out as they all were members there too, and they wanted me to go there and post.

So I clecked on their link and went to visit and register at that forum.

I soon discovered that it was true, all these guys did post a lot more there, and in fact I soon discovered that they had a few topics in their GENESIS/EVOLUTION section of that forum that were named after me personally, and were attacking me in a very personal manner.

(Thus the reason I dont ever allow anyone to name a topic here at someone by personal name)

Well it's impossible to see that going on and not feel the need to respond, and so I started to post and soon discovered that the MODs of that site were really, really REALLY pro-Young Earth Creationist!

The MODs challenged me to enter into a formal 'debate' on their forum at a special "Debate section" where only I and one other person would be allowed to post, and all other guests would be only able to post in a lower "comments section"

I told the MOD that Im not trained in the art of the forum debate, and I just know how to post on forums in a more general friendly manner .

The MOD told me in a private message that if I turned down the offer of a debate, that this too would be something that would be used against me from now on on that site, and people would connect me with being unable to debate my views when challenged.

So feeling boxed-in I agreed to do a formal debate on their site...

Then over the next week we had a mini-debate over the name of this future debate i would be in....they wanted it to be "Genesis vs Evolution", but I told the MOD over and over that I dont debate evolution because Im only a simple Bible student and I dont teach science at a school.

The MOD finally agreed to list the ***le of our debate under the name something like "What does Genesis teach?" or something like that.

I wanted everyone to understand at the time that I was not there to defend evolution, nor would I even much speak on that topic.
I wanted everyone at the start to understand that my views are centered on the text of the bible alone.

And so the formal debate was announced, as well as the other person who would be up against me.

we were each told the rules.

We would get like 1/2 a page of room each time we posted to make our point, and we also were given 24 hours to post our comment before it was the other person's turn.

So we began.

I introduce myself....and start with the text at Genesis 1:1 .
I spend my first post dealing with the general introduction of what the bibe says at Gen 1:1 and how this leads to the next set of verses.

Then it was the other guy's turn....

He attacked the personal life of Darwin.

Then it was my turn again, and I build on my first post and start to deal with the next verse in the Bible that talks about the "Let there be light".
I try to show from the Text what is going on in this verse and how its connected to later sections that we will be soon dealing with as we go along.

Now it was the other guys turn again....

He attacked me personally , and only dealt with the fact that I had totally ignored what he had said about the personal life of Darwin.
he then went on to attack me on the issue of how many people are put to death in the USSR?

Now it was my turn again, and I continued building my case about what the bible says on the topic of this "light"and I went to the next verse of the Bible were we were now dealing with the issues that appear in that verse.


At about this point and after I had posted what would turn out to be only my 3rd or 4th post in the debate the MODs locked it down and i got sent a bunch of warnings from the MOD about the way i was not responding to the other guy's attacks on Darwin and Evolution.
I was warned that unless I started to defend evolution I would be locked-out of the debate and banned from the site until I agreed to defend evolution.

Needless to say, the debate was over.

I was not banned from the site and I returned to the open forum , but soon learned why they all had wanted me to defend evolution so badly?

Thats all they had.....
All their YEC books, tapes, and websites really only are a bunch of the same "Anti-Evolution" **** that keeps getting p***ed around over and over.
They dont really have much BIBLE-centered information there.

The guys who wanted me to debate evolution so much needed me to do that because that is all they got.
They really were totally unprepared to open their Bibles to see what it says in black and white.

and when i started to get people to open their bible and read what it says for themselves, thats when i got in yet more trouble with the MODs.

The MODs were fine with me around so long as I was there to defend evolution , but the moment they discovered i was there to teach what the Bible says they banned me.






so,,,,,,,back to your question to me today "Is that what you are saying?"

My answer is this - I dont teach evolution because Im not a science teacher.
I dont defend evolution because as a Bible Student I have only the area of "Bible Stuff" that I can speak on and defend with any real confidence.

Bible stuff i can deal with....Bible stuff I know.....Bible stuff i can defend.....Bible stuff i can teach.



Thus, I stuck closely to the text of the Bible as written in Genesis.


That is why the YEC teachers have such a hard time dealing with what Im saying, its because i stick to what the text actually says, whereas the YEC teachings are all about what the YEC teachers wished the bible said.

[alanmolstad]

so MichaellS, let me also take this time to share with you the common way it goes whenever i try to talk to a true YEC believer about what the Bible really says in Genesis....


It mostly goes like this -

ALAN - "What does the bible say God created first In the beginning?"

Other Guy - "Darwin was a sex pervert"



Alan - "In the Bible, what is the meaning to the term "Heavens"?

Other Guy "I feel sorry for you and your sex pervert Darwin"



Alan - "Do you notice how the Bible text does not actually say the "Sun" was created on the 4th day?"

Other guy - "Evolution is evil, and I feel sorry for you Alan"




ect, etc, etc...

[jude1:3]

I will tell you a little story about what I mean when I say, "I don't teach or defend evolution"



Many, many years ago...

I was locked in an argument with a bunch of guys who were on this forum attacking my views on Genesis, and one of them told me about a different forum where they invited me to go check out as they all were members there too, and they wanted me to go there and post.

So I clecked on their link and went to visit and register at that forum.

I soon discovered that it was true, all these guys did post a lot more there, and in fact I soon discovered that they had a few topics in their GENESIS/EVOLUTION section of that forum that were named after me personally, and were attacking me in a very personal manner.

(Thus the reason I dont ever allow anyone to name a topic here at someone by personal name)

Well it's impossible to see that going on and not feel the need to respond, and so I started to post and soon discovered that the MODs of that site were really, really REALLY pro-Young Earth Creationist!

The MODs challenged me to enter into a formal 'debate' on their forum at a special "Debate section" where only I and one other person would be allowed to post, and all other guests would be only able to post in a lower "comments section"

I told the MOD that Im not trained in the art of the forum debate, and I just know how to post on forums in a more general friendly manner .

The MOD told me in a private message that if I turned down the offer of a debate, that this too would be something that would be used against me from now on on that site, and people would connect me with being unable to debate my views when challenged.

So feeling boxed-in I agreed to do a formal debate on their site...

Then over the next week we had a mini-debate over the name of this future debate i would be in....they wanted it to be "Genesis vs Evolution", but I told the MOD over and over that I dont debate evolution because Im only a simple Bible student and I dont teach science at a school.

The MOD finally agreed to list the ***le of our debate under the name something like "What does Genesis teach?" or something like that.

I wanted everyone to understand at the time that I was not there to defend evolution, nor would I even much speak on that topic.
I wanted everyone at the start to understand that my views are centered on the text of the bible alone.

And so the formal debate was announced, as well as the other person who would be up against me.

we were each told the rules.

We would get like 1/2 a page of room each time we posted to make our point, and we also were given 24 hours to post our comment before it was the other person's turn.

So we began.

I introduce myself....and start with the text at Genesis 1:1 .
I spend my first post dealing with the general introduction of what the bibe says at Gen 1:1 and how this leads to the next set of verses.

Then it was the other guy's turn....

He attacked the personal life of Darwin.

Then it was my turn again, and I build on my first post and start to deal with the next verse in the Bible that talks about the "Let there be light".
I try to show from the Text what is going on in this verse and how its connected to later sections that we will be soon dealing with as we go along.

Now it was the other guys turn again....

He attacked me personally , and only dealt with the fact that I had totally ignored what he had said about the personal life of Darwin.
he then went on to attack me on the issue of how many people are put to death in the USSR?

Now it was my turn again, and I continued building my case about what the bible says on the topic of this "light"and I went to the next verse of the Bible were we were now dealing with the issues that appear in that verse.


At about this point and after I had posted what would turn out to be only my 3rd or 4th post in the debate the MODs locked it down and i got sent a bunch of warnings from the MOD about the way i was not responding to the other guy's attacks on Darwin and Evolution.
I was warned that unless I started to defend evolution I would be locked-out of the debate and banned from the site until I agreed to defend evolution.

Needless to say, the debate was over.

I was not banned from the site and I returned to the open forum , but soon learned why they all had wanted me to defend evolution so badly?

Thats all they had.....
All their YEC books, tapes, and websites really only are a bunch of the same "Anti-Evolution" **** that keeps getting p***ed around over and over.
They dont really have much BIBLE-centered information there.

The guys who wanted me to debate evolution so much needed me to do that because that is all they got.
They really were totally unprepared to open their Bibles to see what it says in black and white.

and when i started to get people to open their bible and read what it says for themselves, thats when i got in yet more trouble with the MODs.

The MODs were fine with me around so long as I was there to defend evolution , but the moment they discovered i was there to teach what the Bible says they banned me.






so,,,,,,,back to your question to me today "Is that what you are saying?"

My answer is this - I dont teach evolution because Im not a science teacher.
I dont defend evolution because as a Bible Student I have only the area of "Bible Stuff" that I can speak on and defend with any real confidence.

Bible stuff i can deal with....Bible stuff I know.....Bible stuff i can defend.....Bible stuff i can teach.



Thus, I stuck closely to the text of the Bible as written in Genesis.


That is why the YEC teachers have such a hard time dealing with what Im saying, its because i stick to what the text actually says, whereas the YEC teachings are all about what the YEC teachers wished the bible said.




http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_***ets/1167769/jags.gif



You believe the lie that we are still in the 7th day and that it hasn't p***ed yet. It is a heresy and hopefully people will see right through the heresy. Just come out and say plainly that is what you believe.

[disciple]

so MichaellS, let me also take this time to share with you the common way it goes whenever i try to talk to a true YEC believer about what the Bible really says in Genesis....


It mostly goes like this -

ALAN - "What does the bible say God created first In the beginning?"

Other Guy - "Darwin was a sex pervert"



Alan - "In the Bible, what is the meaning to the term "Heavens"?

Other Guy "I feel sorry for you and your sex pervert Darwin"



Alan - "Do you notice how the Bible text does not actually say the "Sun" was created on the 4th day?"

Other guy - "Evolution is evil, and I feel sorry for you Alan"




ect, etc, etc...

Alan, evolution would not have entered you mind if not for Darwin and those who
jumped on that band wagon. The heart of the theory is long periods of time, random chance and unrepeatable upward mutations.

God’s works are not random and He is behind every little detail. There are no events so small that he does not rule for his purposes. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?” Jesus said, “And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.” Matthew 10:29–30

[alanmolstad]

disciple...thanks for answering my posts...thats getting more and more rare around here, and I wish to support the people that do take the time to respond to my comments, and so I will give you my answer...

and because you posted two paragraphs i will respond with a separate comment to each to show you that I did read your words and took the time to respond to them as best I could.

I also like the fact that you do post your comments in separate paragraphs, as that seems to be a "lost art" around here at times with a lot of posters...







But first...I want to point something out to you and anyone who might read this over the next few years....



(drop down to next post)

[alanmolstad]

If anyone reading this have been following along and have been reading my posts, you have come to be familiar with the idea that "Alan does not teach nor defend Evolution"

Over and over I have to keep telling people this because they always want to drag me into a debate over evolution because,thats all the YEC books got within them, Just a bunch of Anti-evolution arguments.


And on this topic I have had to remind people a few times now that I simply dont defend nor teach evolution....Im not a science teacher and so if they got a question about science they better go find someone qualified to answer it, and that is not me!


So it should be clear I will not get sucked into defending evolution in any way, shape,or form.
I teach what the Bible says, PERIOD.



and yet in the post I have a copy of within this post you once again see an attack made against evolution????

Once again there is an attempt made to get me to debate the merits of evolution.....LOL... :)....and once again it fails...



I do no teach nor defend evolution....



(Im not sure how else I can say this before it starts to sink in?)







Alan, evolution would not have entered you mind if not for Darwin and those who
jumped on that band wagon. The heart of the theory is long periods of time, random chance and unrepeatable upward mutations.

God’s works are not random and He is behind every little detail. There are no events so small that he does not rule for his purposes. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?” Jesus said, “And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.” Matthew 10:29–30

[alanmolstad]

Alan, evolution would not have entered you mind if not for Darwin and those who
jumped on that band wagon. The heart of the theory is long periods of time, random chance and unrepeatable upward mutations.



The idea that the "Days"of Genesis speak to us about a vast unknown or even unlimited amount of time goes back to the very start of the Christian church.

I have already posted on one of these topics a list of the well-known and well-respected early Christian writers that shared my views on this issue.

If you doubt this, or have forgotten what i have already taken the time to list for you guys, I would be happy to list the information again if needed....

But you can google it as well as I can,




One thing you may have noticed at all the YEC websites you use, that they never really claim that the idea that the "days" of genesis speak to long amounts of times is a "new"idea....

The YEC websites cant say the idea of an "Old Earth"is a modern teaching of the christian church, because they know full well that this idea stems back to the dawn of the Christian church.

[jude1:3]

Alan your whole view is based on a day not really being a day and instead meaning millions of years.

It's Heretical Garbage designed to deceive people.

[jude1:3]

You keep saying that you are sticking to The Bible but the truth is you are not, but instead interjecting your own personal interpretation of days really meaning millions of years and days not really p***ing in the Genesis account.



Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.- Hebrew 13:9

... we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting - Ephesians 4:14

Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life. - Proverbs 4:23

[alanmolstad]

God’s works are not random and He is behind every little detail. There are no events so small that he does not rule for his purposes. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?” Jesus said, “And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.” Matthew 10:29–30




and now to address your 2nd paragraph....


and my answer is simple ...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution






Let me know if you want more information?

[alanmolstad]

Just come out and say plainly that is what you believe.


I got like over 7,000 post of this forum, and 99.9% of them are dealing with the topic of Genesis...

You really think I have left any doubts in anyone mind as to what Im talking about?.....you think I have left any of my points unclear to you or anyone else?




Is there anything I have posted on that you think is a little foggy?....

Is there any question about Genesis that you think I skipped over?.....

[alanmolstad]

at Genesis 1:1, what does the Bible say is the very first thing God created In the beginning?

[alanmolstad]

Alan your whole view is based on a day not really being a day and instead meaning millions of years.

It's Heretical Garbage designed to deceive people.

Its actually a common teaching within the Christian Church....consider-

John Ankerberg
Gleason Archer
John Battle
Michael Behe
William Jennings Bryan
Walter Bradley
Jack Collins
Chuck Colson
Paul Copan
William Lane Craig
Norman Geisler
Robert Godfrey
Guillermo Gonzales Hank Hannegraff
Jack Hayford
Fred Heeren
Charles Hodge
Walter Kaiser
Greg Koukl
C. S. Lewis
Paul Little
Patricia Mondore
J. P. Moreland
Robert Newman
Greg Neyman
Mark Noll
Nancy Pearcey Perry Phillips
William Phillips
Mike Poole
Bernard Ramm
Jay Richards
Hugh Ross
Fritz Schaefer
Francis Schaeffer
C. I. Scofield
Chuck Smith Jr.
David Snoke
Lee Strobel
Ken Taylor
B. B. Warfield



Now of all the names of people within the church that have openly taught that the "days" of genesis dont have to be just 24 hrs, the name of William Jennings Bryan caught my eye.

after all, was not William Jennings Bryan the defender of the YEC side during the most well known trial on evolution?...

You know the famous Scopes Trial?

Are we to believe that even the one guy most connected in American history with defending the YEC position, actually was in agreement with me on the "Genesis Days" question?


Is that what Im saying?



Yes it is... :)

[MichaellS]

John Ankerberg
Gleason Archer
John Battle
Michael Behe
William Jennings Bryan
Walter Bradley
Jack Collins
Chuck Colson
Paul Copan
William Lane Craig
Norman Geisler
Robert Godfrey
Guillermo Gonzales Hank Hannegraff
Jack Hayford
Fred Heeren
Charles Hodge
Walter Kaiser
Greg Koukl
C. S. Lewis
Paul Little
Patricia Mondore
J. P. Moreland
Robert Newman
Greg Neyman
Mark Noll
Nancy Pearcey Perry Phillips
William Phillips
Mike Poole
Bernard Ramm
Jay Richards
Hugh Ross
Fritz Schaefer
Francis Schaeffer
C. I. Scofield
Chuck Smith Jr.
David Snoke
Lee Strobel
Ken Taylor
B. B. Warfield


But you keep glossing over us.

With all those names, you shouldn't have any problem with referencing the bible.

Why is it when we reference the bible, you go mute?

[alanmolstad]

at Genesis 1:1, what does the Bible say is the very first thing God created In the beginning?>>>mute you say?

Im sure you want to prove you are not the one that is mute by answering this bible question.

[alanmolstad]

In 1925, at the famous Scopes Trial1 in Dayton, Tennessee, William Jennings Bryan was cross-examined - part of the transcript follows:]

Clarence Darrow (the ACLU lawyer) [D]: ‘Mr Bryan, could you tell me how old the Earth is?’

Bryan [B]: ‘No, sir, I couldn’t.’

[D]: ‘Could you come anywhere near it?’

[B]: ‘I wouldn’t attempt to. I could possibly come as near as the scientists do, but I had rather be more accurate before I give a guess.’

[D]: ‘Does the statement, “The morning and the evening were the first day,” and “The morning and the evening were the second day,” mean anything to you?’

[B]: ‘I do not think it necessarily means a twenty-four-hour day.’

[D]: ‘You do not?’

[B]: ‘No.’

[D]: 'Then, when the Bible said, for instance, "and God called the firmament heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day," that does not necessarily mean twenty-four-hours?’

[B]: ‘I do not think it necessarily does.’ ‘I think it would be just as easy for the kind of God we believe in to make the Earth in six days as in six years or in six million years or in 600 million years. I do not think it important whether we believe one or the other.’

[D]: ‘And they had the evening and the morning before that time for three days or three periods. All right, that settles it. Now, if you call those periods, they may have been a very long time.’

[B]: ‘They might have been.’

[D]: ‘The creation might have been going on for a very long time?’

[B]: ‘It might have continued for millions of years.’

[disciple]

If anyone reading this have been following along and have been reading my posts, you have come to be familiar with the idea that "Alan does not teach nor defend Evolution"

Over and over I have to keep telling people this because they always want to drag me into a debate over evolution because,thats all the YEC books got within them, Just a bunch of Anti-evolution arguments.


And on this topic I have had to remind people a few times now that I simply dont defend nor teach evolution....Im not a science teacher and so if they got a question about science they better go find someone qualified to answer it, and that is not me!


So it should be clear I will not get sucked into defending evolution in any way, shape,or form.
I teach what the Bible says, PERIOD.



and yet in the post I have a copy of within this post you once again see an attack made against evolution????

Once again there is an attempt made to get me to debate the merits of evolution.....LOL... :)....and once again it fails...



I do no teach nor defend evolution....



(Im not sure how else I can say this before it starts to sink in?)

Hello Alan,

You say you do not teach or defend the theory of evolution and I think you feel you are being sincere with that statement. But those of us who are discussing this topic with you would just like a clear answer so we can continue the discussion or bring it to a conclusion. How else can you say it before it starts to sink in? Simply answer this question, do you believe that men evolved from apes?

My answer would be no. Would you say yes or no, there is no need to expound, just yes or no.

[alanmolstad]

Hello Alan,

You say you do not teach or defend the theory of evolution and I think you feel you are being sincere with that statement. But those of us who are discussing this topic with you would just like a clear answer so we can continue the discussion or bring it to a conclusion. How else can you say it before it starts to sink in? Simply answer this question, do you believe that men evolved from apes?

My answer would be no. Would you say yes or no, there is no need to expound, just yes or no.
Let me get this straight..

I tell you over and over that I dont teach nor defend evolution...I write a very long and I think very clear post on why, (see post number # 44, this topic) and I tell people over and over that I only deal and center my posts of the bible,,,,,,and your response is to yet ask me a question about evolution?


is that what I see here?

That regardless of what i say and how I say it, you wont ask me a bible question or ask about how to look at a Genesis verse?



Here is my yes or no answer-......"See post # 44"

[disciple]

Let me get this straight..

I tell you over and over that I dont teach nor defend evolution...I write a very long and I think very clear post on why, (see post number # 44, this topic) and I tell people over and over that I only deal and center my posts of the bible,,,,,,and your response is to yet ask me a question about evolution?


is that what I see here?

That regardless of what i say and how I say it, you wont ask me a bible question or ask about how to look at a Genesis verse?



Here is my yes or no answer-......"See post # 44"

See Alan, that is the problem we all have with this discussion. You continually say that the theory of evolution walks hand in hand with the Creation account and yet you are intentionally vague when asked a direct question. We never know if you are serious or if for some reason you are ****ing us around. It stands to reason that if you believe that evolution and Creation walk hand in hand, then you must believe that men evolved from apes, there can be no other conclusion for us to reach.
Perhaps I can be more specific, do you believe that God caused men to evolve from apes?

[jude1:3]

It's kind of frustrating when you ask for a clear, straight forward and short answer and instead get a wall of text or a vague lawyer type of double speak.

[alanmolstad]

See Alan, that is the problem we all have with this discussion. You continually say that the theory of evolution walks hand in hand with the Creation account and yet you are intentionally vague when asked a direct question. We never know if you are serious or if for some reason you are ****ing us around. It stands to reason that if you believe that evolution and Creation walk hand in hand, then you must believe that men evolved from apes, there can be no other conclusion for us to reach.
Perhaps I can be more specific, do you believe that God caused men to evolve from apes?again, that is an evolution question....see post# 44 for your answer

[jude1:3]

Refusal to answer clearly and simply should be seen as an admittence of loss to the debate.

Also, refusal to give clear and plain summeries of your beliefs should be an indication of purposful deception on your part.



Alan should state his beliefs like this :

* I believe the creation week of Genesis hasn't fully past yet and that we are still in it.
* I believe that a day doesn't really mean a day, but that it really means millions of years.

This is essentially what he believes but covers it up with walls of text and hermenutic gymnastics. In fact this is what all those guys who push theistic evolution do. It's Heretical Garbage and they know it.

[alanmolstad]

Refusal to answer clearly and simply should be seen as an admittance of loss to the debate.

......

At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created In the Beginning?

[alanmolstad]

..... if you believe that evolution and Creation walk hand in hand, then you must believe.......

What I believe is what I can prove in the Bible.


And this is what I can show:

I can show that at Genesis 1:1 the Bible says that God created the "Heavens" first in the beginning.

I can show that this term "Heavens" has several correct meanings in the Bible at other spots in the text, but among these correct meanings is the idea that Heavens means the "whole collections of stars" in the night sky.....all of them!!

I can show that God creates the "source" then for all the later "lights" talked about in the whole creation story.

I can show that if you stick close to what the Text says you dont need to rely of some type of magic "source-less light" just to understand whats going on in the story.

I can show the the Bible does not actually say the "sun"was created on the 4th day.

I can show that the Bible does not actually say that the "moon" was created on the 4th day.

I can show that the words that try to say that on the 4th day that God "also made" the stars, was added to the Text,and that in the King James you can see this proved for yourself ,(so you dont have to just take my word on it)


I can show that the first 6 days in Genesis have very clear endings.

I can show that there is no ending listed forthe7th day in Genesis.

I can show that there is no ending to the 7th day in all of the Old testament.

I can show that there is no ending to the 7th day in all of the rest of the whole Bible !

I can show where in the Bible it tells us why the Earth was in "darkness" at the start of the Genesis story.

I can show that the bible tells us that the reason for the Genesis "Darkness" was due to very thick clouds.

[alanmolstad]

all of the above is what I can "show" you in written in the Txt.


So Im not saying, "Oh this is just some things I believe" rather this is just a short list of the things I can show you are actually written in black and white, and that you cant hide from.




Im saying "This is what the Bible says in black and white"







Its also a list that stands totally against what you guys are reading on the YEC websites.....
But I also know its a list that you cant attack because you know full well I would not have posted it had i not a verse ready to go that you can read for yourself and see how what i say the Bible says, IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!!!!!!

[MichaellS]

What I believe is what I can prove in the Bible.


And this is what I can show:

I can show that at Genesis 1:1 the Bible says that God created the "Heavens" first in the beginning.

I can show that this term "Heavens" has several correct meanings in the Bible at other spots in the text, but among these correct meanings is the idea that Heavens means the "whole collections of stars" in the night sky.....all of them!!

I can show that God creates the "source" then for all the later "lights" talked about in the whole creation story.

I can show that if you stick close to what the Text says you dont need to rely of some type of magic "source-less light" just to understand whats going on in the story.

I can show the the Bible does not actually say the "sun"was created on the 4th day.

I can show that the Bible does not actually say that the "moon" was created on the 4th day.

I can show that the words that try to say that on the 4th day that God "also made" the stars, was added to the Text,and that in the King James you can see this proved for yourself ,(so you dont have to just take my word on it)


I can show that the first 6 days in Genesis have very clear endings.

I can show that there is no ending listed forthe7th day in Genesis.

I can show that there is no ending to the 7th day in all of the Old testament.

I can show that there is no ending to the 7th day in all of the rest of the whole Bible !

I can show where in the Bible it tells us why the Earth was in "darkness" at the start of the Genesis story.

I can show that the bible tells us that the reason for the Genesis "Darkness" was due to very thick clouds.

Take another look at who else said “I can show”.

While you’re so busy at pointing us back to your formula in Genesis, at the very expense of setting aside other scriptures. Here, yet another warning from Jesus himself at letting some scriptures slip into obscurity while busy propping up some other thing.

At that point, you and all who are behind this doctrine are racing towards to make it amongst you, your own tradition. Notice here in the book of Mark, the startling tradition-builders parallel to Alan’s Genesis teaching and what it throws the un-suspecting reader into.

Jesus himself warns everyone of reasoning on our own in the word of God when He says “many things” such as this.


“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. “For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”(Mark 7:8-13)

As He point out, “many things” (such as evolution) fall under the simplicity of “setting aside” (such as the other scriptures we have told you about).
.

[disciple]

what i believe is what i can prove in the bible.

i think that is a very good stance to take, if you really mean it, because if you are serious then you cannot
believe that the theory of evolution is true. That's a great place to start.



I can show the the bible does not actually say the "sun"was created on the 4th day.

I can show that the bible does not actually say that the "moon" was created on the 4th day.

Ok if you want to be literal, the word "sun" does not appear until Genesis chapter 15 and the word "moon" does not appear until chapter 37. So if those words are not specifically used how can you say when they were created?


I can show that the words that try to say that on the 4th day that god "also made" the stars, was added to the text,and that in the king james you can see this proved for yourself ,(so you dont have to just take my word on it)

Here is the verse from the King James, I don't see your point.
"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also".



You know Alan, I don't belittle your belief regarding the age of the earth or whether or not the 7th day has ended, you have a perfect
right to your opinion on those matters as we all do. But I feel your stance on evolution, your belief that it walks hand in hand with the
bible is what should be discussed.

[MichaellS]

I do have a request here, just do me this little favor won’t you, if you see me getting drawn down the drain of error, do attempt to give me notice just as the scripture says and no more so that I will not be a distraction. a frustration, a deception to the body of Christ,


“Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.” (***us 3:10,11)

[alanmolstad]

You know Alan, I don't belittle your belief regarding the age of the earth....

Im going to take a moment tonight and write a few things to you....

I hope to post a bunch of comments for you to read, and I will try to keep my posts short for a change....

[alanmolstad]

First off....

I posted a nice long list of the things I can "show" you are found in the Bible that support my views.

If you were truly serious about proving I am in error, then my list is the place for you to start.

The things on my list are the very foundation of what Im teaching here.

If you can undercut my list/foundation, all my other teachings will fall down.


So why do you not seem to want to go over any of the points I rais on my list?....


My list is the only things I care about deeply, so why dont you bother to ask me anything at all about them?

Why dont you seem to want to challenge me about something on my list?

[jude1:3]

To give you a little example of what I am talking about when I say Theistic Evolutionists Talk in Circles and never give a simple straight forward, clear and short answer when asked about what they believe and a summary of what they believe I'll post this video :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuWAUnQN1HQ





* Watch how annoying it is and how long it takes for The Theistic Evolutionists to give an answer. They are doing it on purpose and they have a deceitful agenda. You can see it on their faces.

[alanmolstad]

next.....


Im going to list here now one of the core ideas that support my views.
If you want to truly help me see the "real truth" then all Im asking you to do is prove with the bible that what I say the Bible says in black and white is not actually what the Bible says in black and white...

on a side note:
What you are about to see true about me is that I dont try to force the Bible to mean things.
What I do is I look to first what does the bible really say?...then I look at all the other verses tooand learn what is literally says there.

I then have a better chance to get what the verse "means" when I clearly understand what it simply says in black and white first.
I dont post a verse and then quickly have to add, "But while it says one thing , it must mean something else"

I like to first understand what it says....and get simple agreement on that first ,before we go to what it means.

[alanmolstad]

next.....


Im going to list here now one of the core ideas that support my views.
If you want to truly help me see the "real truth" then all Im asking you to do is prove with the bible that what I say the Bible says in black and white is not actually what the Bible says in black and white...

on a side note:
What you are about to see true about me is that I dont try to force the Bible to mean things.
What I do is I look to first what does the bible really say?...then I look at all the other verses tooand learn what is literally says there.

I then have a better chance to get what the verse "means" when I clearly understand what it simply says in black and white first.
I dont post a verse and then quickly have to add, "But while it says one thing , it must mean something else"

I like to first understand what it says....and get simple agreement on that first ,before we go to what it means.

[alanmolstad]

I said : "I can show that at Genesis 1:1 the Bible says that God created the "Heavens" first in the beginning."

This actually is the central core idea I hang all things after on.

Attack this idea!...

Show me that what I say the bible says in black and white is not what the Bible says in black and white at all !

Prove to me I misquoted the verse!

[alanmolstad]

Prove to me I misquoted the verse!But if you cant, or if you dont?


Then get off my case!




If Im correctly quoting the verse, and you dont doubt this at all, and this verse is the central core idea to all my teaching, and you cant say anything against the way i quote the verse?


Then Im right, and the YEC teachers are wrong, and thats just the way it is....
Im not interested in any junk you want to add to this or that...Im not interested in why my views are wrong if you cant even show me that I misquoted the very first verse I listed!

So if you got nothing?....Then get off my case because Im right, anybody can see that, and you know it too!

[jude1:3]

Im right, anybody can see that, and you know it too!


You believe that we are still in the creation week of Genesis and that a day really means millions of years.



https://media.giphy.com/media/Ic97mPViHEG5O/giphy.gif

[alanmolstad]

You believe that we are still in the creation week of Genesis and that a day really means millions of years.


6 days have very clear ending correct?
Do you doubt this fact?........


The 7th day has no clear ending like the other 6 days correct?.....

There is no verse in Genesis that says. "And there was evening, and there was morning—the Seventh day."
You doubt that?...then show me the verse!


There is no verse in the whole Old Testament that says. "And there was evening, and there was morning—the Seventh day."
You doubt that?...then show me the verse!

There in no verse in the entire Bible that says - " "And there was evening, and there was morning—the Seventh day."
You doubt that?...then show me the verse!


If you got nothing?
If you got not a single verse in the whole Bible that teaches just as clearly that the 7th day has ended just like it has endings for the first 6 days?....then get off my case!

Im not interested at all in your opinions of what Im saying.

Im only interested in what you can show me out of the bible in black and white!

Show me where it has an ending to the 7th day and you have a case...


But if you cant show me that, then you dont got squat!

[jude1:3]

The 7th day has no clear ending like the other 6 days correct?.....




Not just days, but Thousands Of Years have p***ed since then.

[alanmolstad]

still no verse to back that talk up?



Then you ain't got squat!

[jude1:3]

still no verse to back that talk up?



And all the Days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty Years: and he died. - Genesis 5:5

[alanmolstad]

I still dont see a verse that says the 7th day of creation is over...


Let me help you so you know what to look for....

read the ending to the 1st day
Then the 2nd

Then the 3rd

Then the 4th and the 5th and the 6th....

All the days of the creation week end the very same way.

This is not an accident!


Now just look for the same type of ending to the 7th day....


its that simple....

[jude1:3]

I still dont see a verse that says the 7th day of creation is over...



It plainly says that years have p***ed not just says.

[alanmolstad]

Have I ever said that years had not p***ed?

However Im asking if you can find a verse that clearly says the 7th day of the creation week has ended just as it goes into such detail over the ending of the other 6 days that have p***ed.

Clearly you cant, so you dont got a case, you dont got squat....




You know Im right!

[jude1:3]

Years have p***ed since then so the creation week is clearly over.

[alanmolstad]

whats the matter....a bit of trouble finding that verse?... :)

Have you checked Ken Hams website?

[jude1:3]

And all the Days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty Years: and he died. - Genesis 5:5



But days really mean millions of years right ? :)

[alanmolstad]

Im asking for what the Bible says in Black and white!!!!!!


Im not asking, "What do you think it means?"
I dont care what you think it means.



Im asking - "Where does it clearly state that the 7th day has ended just as it clearly states the first 6 days ended?"





Is there such a clear ending or is there not?

[jude1:3]

Im asking for what the Bible says in Black and white!!!!!!



And all the Days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty Years: and he died . - Genesis 5:5

[alanmolstad]

still cant find that verse eh?

Gosh it must be frustrating.... LOL :)

[jude1:3]

still cant find that verse eh?





I Already found the verse that said Years have p***ed....



http://i.imgur.com/9WbAL.gif

[alanmolstad]

still looking for the verse that teaches just as clearly that the 7th day ended, as it teaches that the first 6 days ended...


and unless you got a verse?...you dont got squat!

[jude1:3]

still looking for the verse that teaches just as clearly that the 7th day ended, as it teaches that the first 6 days ended...


and unless you got a verse?...you dont got squat!





And all the Days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty Years: and he died. - Genesis 5:5



There you go.

[alanmolstad]

yes,,,,It must be so frustrating.....:)

[jude1:3]

yes,,,,It must be so frustrating.....:)


It must be frustrating to you that no one buys in to your Heretical Theistic Evolution.

[alanmolstad]

yes,,,,It must be so frustrating.....:)

[jude1:3]

yes,,,,It must be so frustrating.....:)



http://cdn.meme.am/instances/14990706.jpg

[alanmolstad]

6 days with very clear ending....

each of the endings is written the very same way.....no way to miss them.

The writer of Genesis is making a strong point by doing this.
He clearly wants us to know for 100% that 6 of the creation week days have ended!


but this also points us to the lack of any ending on the 7th day....

There is no way to miss that point the writer of Genesis is making too.

[jude1:3]

I'll give some other people on the forum a chance to talk some sense into you.

[jude1:3]

Just so you know it's all in good fun Alan. I agree with some stuff you post but I defenitely don't agree with your stance on Theistic Evolution.

[MichaellS]

Edited back

[MichaellS]

Edited back no2

[MichaellS]

You state that I know you are right? Are you kidding me?

What spell of delirium have you encountered to wage such evil imaginations over the meaning of six days of work and one of rest? I am supposed to ***ume you are right while driving out simplicity?

The only instance in the word of God that permits an altered response to the Sabbath day is Romans 14:5, “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike, ,”

If the Lord “rested on the seventh day from all His work” (Gen 2:2), if Isaiah called the Sabbath the "Lord's Holy Day", if the Lord “called the light day” (1:5), then there is no spiritualizing of it, the night came and put an end to it till again we come to recognize the “Lord’s Holy Day”. It is open and night puts it to an end. You are under a delirious train of thought my friend. Not only, but have allowed it to captivate for you an evil conclusion as I have pointed out to you in the scriptures which you find inconvenient.

Gee, I wonder why Alan finds contrary scriptures inconvenient? Do you suppose they don’t agree with his “Hand in Hand” formula? Do you suppose he considers those scriptures that challenge that formula EVIL?

Well, how about it, after the many attempts to clear the air between us from the word, and you going mute on those references, is that what you are describing for us here, that those references we gave you are to be considered Evil words?

That Alan maintains all the references we gave from the Bible that challenges Alan’s proposal in Genesis, Alan considers Bible p***ages as EVIL? That our mentioning Bible verses to Alan, he should consider those verses as EVIL? Verses informing His children of his will should be tossed out as EVIL?

WOW!

No, I am not interested in your formula when you cannot stand up under the soundness of those verses. You failed at it, remember? They are a cutting sword that you cannot stop though you have convinced yourself if you stop us, the word of God we bring will stop as well.

Ha. I appealed to your reason long ago, but your willingness to nurture this entrenched error is too great for you to repent, isn’t it? Funny thing about that is nooobody here buys that, and my last next to the last post stands, though people can continue to “set aside” scripture to collectively feed a tradition, repentance still happens. Some will hear and repent, but resistance has to come from within.

, , Bubble gurgle, bubble gurgle.

[alanmolstad]

You state that.....I asked you a question about Genesis 1:1 *

....you ducked the answer and tried to change the topic.

how did that work out?






* hint: it's near the front of the Bible.

[MichaellS]

I asked you a question about Genesis 1:1 *

....you ducked the answer and tried to change the topic.

how did that work out?

* hint: it's near the front of the Bible.

You don’t get it do you, , You invalidated your ability to set the narrative by

“SETTING ASIDE” scripture. See post http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3952-Evolution-does-not-stand-up-to-biblical-scrutiny&p=169454&viewfull=1#post169454

Why is other scripture given proper stance to apply to Genesis? It is unanimous; John 1:1 begins the inspection of Genesis. A Genesis formula tradition-builder’s problem is, where does he stop the NT inspection so his deception can survive?

More deflection is sure to reappear to shield this inspection.

[alanmolstad]

Still ducking my Genesis 1:1 question eh MichaellS?

[alanmolstad]

MichaellS....still ducking my Genesis 1:1 question eh guy?

So sad...
It must be so frustrating for you to think you know so many things about the Bible, and yet be so openly totally unable to answer a simple question asked about the very first verse of the bible...

How embarr***ing for you...

[alanmolstad]

I'll give some other people on the forum a chance to talk some sense into you.


What I see is this-

When I talk to a bible student that wants to believe in the YEC teachings but learns (by opening his Bible) that the YEC teachings are just not there, and that what Im saying actually does appear in the text, is that they will normally ***ume that they have failed in some manner, and will likely hope that someone else with more "Bible Smarts" will take over for them.

They ***ume that the Bible "must" teach the YEC teachings the way they have been taught by the YEC books, videos, and websites, and so they credit their own inability to find the YEC in the Bible to be just their own fault.

They ***ume that someone else could do better than they did.


Some Bible students will part company with me with the words, "I know you are wrong Alan, I know the YEC teachings are correct, I just cant prove it right now"

But Im here to say that its not actually anyone's fault that they cant find and prove any of the YEC teachings.
This is because the YEC teachings are not found within the Bible.


The YEC teachings are invented by men and spread around the web in videos and on websites, but they are not in any way based on the Bible.

When you look at the information you get on a YEC website or in a Ken Ham video, what you find is summations of what the YEC teachers believe the Bible should mean.

Not what the Bible actually says...

The YEC videos and websites are putting out their own version of what they think the text means...


I dont do that.

I just tell you what the Bible says.


My questions to our friend MichaellS here are not about what he should think the text "means", rather Im simply asking him what does the text "say?"

[disciple]

still no verse to back that talk up?



Then you ain't got squat!

Here are some verses I'm sure you will ignore.

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". Exodus 20:11

"It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". Exodus 31:17

You will note that the context shows past tense, God rested on the seventh day and was refreshed on the seventh day, not that He is resting or that He is being refreshed. You will also note that the Hebrew word for day used in these verses is the same word always used for a 24 hour period.

Here is more information on this subject, which I'm sure you will not read since you consider yourself a teacher and need no instruction from anyone who doesn't agree with you.

When it comes to understanding the length of the days in Genesis 1, one of the first questions we need to ask is how do we determine when a day is twenty-four hours long?
The Hebrew word for day, yom, is used in the singular and plural form 2301 times in the Old Testament, and outside of Genesis there is always agreement as to when the word means a day of twenty-four hours:
Whenever the word day is used with a number it always means an ordinary day with no exceptions (410 occasions).
The term evening and morning used together without day outside of Genesis 1 always means an ordinary day (38 occasions).
When the words evening or morning are used together with the word day outside of Genesis 1 it always means an ordinary day (23 occasions).
When the word night is used with the word day outside of Genesis 1 it always means an ordinary day (52 occasions).

It is clear then that the word day outside of Genesis 1 means a day of twenty-four hours when it is used with a number, with the phrase “evening and morning”, when the words “evening” or “morning” occur with “day”, and when the term “night” occurs with “day”.
It is the context of the word “day” that will determine its meaning, and when the context of Genesis 1 is examined you will find that the word day on each of the days is accompanied by either: “evening and morning”; a number; or by the word “night”. Therefore, the context reveals that the meaning of “day” on each of the six days is a day of twenty-four hours.

[jude1:3]

Here are some verses I'm sure you will ignore.

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". Exodus 20:11

"It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". Exodus 31:17

.




Boom. Flawless Victory.

[alanmolstad]

you say a lot of things...but at no place do you have a verse that teaches that the 7th day ended.
An ending to the 7th day is a false "conclusion" you needed to reach...

Im not attempting to try to tell you what things "mean" Im still just pointing out what the bible does and does NOT say.

And the Bible does NOT say at any point that the 7th day has ended.

In fact there are real verses that teach that the 7th day of God rest continues to this very hour!!!!!!!!!


If you want, just keep looking for a verse that teaches just as clearly that the 7th day ended....



there is none!!!!



There is not a single verse in the whole bible that even hints that the 7th day has ended yet....


Not a single verse supports the idea that the 7th day has ended.

The only people that try to tell us that the 7th day has ended are people that base this false teaching on their personal "need" to have it ended, regardless of the fact that this is not talked about in the text.

[alanmolstad]

....:
Whenever the word day is used with a number it always means an ordinary day with no exceptions ......

Who said that to you?......a YEC website?

I know you are just copy/pasting on me now...so where did you get that?



Here is a little clue about YEC writers like Ken Ham (remember I attended his 8 week ORIGINS cl***, taught by Ken personally).....when a guy says "no exceptions" about the Hebrew or the Greek, you can bet the guy is hiding something that totally undercuts his point.


So who said this to you and got you to trust that stuff?

[jude1:3]

It's safe to say Alan probably would have been anathematized from the Church back in the day for pushing this garbage. It deserves to be right up there with Arianans and the Gnostics.

[alanmolstad]

failing to find any support for their false teachings within the Bible the normal thing the YEC believer might try next is to just get personal and attack the Bible Student personal way.

The hope is to get the Bible Student to react in an in-kind manner that will cause the topic to be lost.

[alanmolstad]

what does the Bible say at Genesis 1:1 was the very first thing God created In The Beginning?

[MichaellS]

The evolutionist here maintains the seventh day is without end but can’t point to the place where it says it was created without end. Anytime we conclude upon highly inflated ideas, we lose perspective at best and have no guard against glorifying in self.

To form an inflated conclusion against simplicity is conjecture.


con·jec·ture
/kənˈjekCHər/
noun


“an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.”

For those who have turned simplicity into imagination will see soundness as inept, even from the word of God. This is obvious. While it is useless to simplicity, imagination gives life to conjecture. Whenever soundness reappears, it is again attacked as inept and ignored.

As with the mind and imagination of an evolutionist, will again confront soundness from the word and attempt to change a day (the seventh) into infinity. The bible indicates no such thing.


“He who, , darkens day into night, , The LORD is His name.” (Amos 5:8)

If I’m not mistaken, the seventh day was referred to in Genesis as a “day”. Here in Amos, we see ANY day that is called “day”, or that is referred to as “day”, darkened to end that day.

Where does the seventh day escape Amos’s description that darkens it?

Is it possible to form an simplistic (seventh day has no end) answer from the word? Not for an evolutionist.

[MichaellS]

It's safe to say Alan probably would have been anathematized from the Church back in the day for pushing this garbage. It deserves to be right up there with Arianans and the Gnostics.

Fair enough ***umption. But not so fair to those who's faith is beset by all the mental / spiritual abuse that continues.

Glad both of you are there to speak for the truth.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]The .......

Still ducking my question about Genesis 1: 1 eh?

[alanmolstad]

what you learn when you look into the history of the many YEC textbooks and websites, is that while they might look at first glance to have a ton of information there, the real truth of the matter is that all these YEC sources are just doing a lot of copy/pasting of the work of Henry Morris.

Ken Ham told me this personally.

the other thing I learned from warnings from Walter Martin and from guys like Ken Samples (who used to cover for Walter on his show), is that whenever a person is talking about Genesis and the Hebrew Language and says things like "This always means__" you can bet the guy is fudging things to make a better-looking case....(ie telling a lie)

The Hebrew language is just not like that, and when people make grand claims about it, and try to tell you that "so-n-so" is a Hebrew Language "rule" you have to point out that "There is no such rule"

And thats the facts here kids....

They may claim on a YEC website that there is such a Hebrew "rule' but in truth they are just making that stuff up so it looks better.


Now in your post number #111 above you copy/paste the standard stuff that has been posted by other people to me over the years....thats no big deal as I expect that to happen once people start to realize that the bible actually does show what Im saying is true, and therefore people stop trusting what they can see with their own eyes, (ie that Im right) and start to attempt to get some other voice to perhaps answer the teachings that I raise here.



But its a moot point....

The YEC websites are wrong.
The information you get from a YEC website is wrong.
The talk about "Rules in the Hebrew" are all just stuff the creator of the YEC website just makes up out of thin air.

Now, on a side note:
I have on other topics related to Genesis over the years went over the things listed in post number #111 above and took apart the claims made therein.

I have went over each point.....point by point.

(Yes it took me a long time to do, but I did it to show that there is really nothing to support any of the stuff found in post number #111 above)

I may have to do that again it seems?

Or I may just do a search, and post the link to what i have said here on the Walter Martin Forum before?...



Or....I guess I could just find a "Reasons To Believe " webpage that address all the claims and copy/paste that here.
After all if thats what people do to me, I guess I can play that same game too!

[disciple]

so Theistic evolution (what I believe) is connected closely with Old Earth Creationism (what Ken Samples believes) and Ken's position is what Walter Martin taught in his answers on the show....


It's all basically the same idea.

That idea is that the earth is here because god created it,and that life is here because god created it,and that nothing in the story of Genesis stands against science and/or evolution....That the two works (evolution and Genesis)can work to help us understand this creation...

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.

[disciple]

what you learn when you look into the history of the many YEC textbooks and websites, is that while they might look at first glance to have a ton of information there, the real truth of the matter is that all these YEC sources are just doing a lot of copy/pasting of the work of Henry Morris.

Ken Ham told me this personally.

the other thing I learned from warnings from Walter Martin and from guys like Ken Samples (who used to cover for Walter on his show), is that whenever a person is talking about Genesis and the Hebrew Language and says things like "This always means__" you can bet the guy is fudging things to make a better-looking case....(ie telling a lie)

The Hebrew language is just not like that, and when people make grand claims about it, and try to tell you that "so-n-so" is a Hebrew Language "rule" you have to point out that "There is no such rule"

And thats the facts here kids....

They may claim on a YEC website that there is such a Hebrew "rule' but in truth they are just making that stuff up so it looks better.


Now in your post number #111 above you copy/paste the standard stuff that has been posted by other people to me over the years....thats no big deal as I expect that to happen once people start to realize that the bible actually does show what Im saying is true, and therefore people stop trusting what they can see with their own eyes, (ie that Im right) and start to attempt to get some other voice to perhaps answer the teachings that I raise here.



But its a moot point....

The YEC websites are wrong.
The information you get from a YEC website is wrong.
The talk about "Rules in the Hebrew" are all just stuff the creator of the YEC website just makes up out of thin air.

Now, on a side note:
I have on other topics related to Genesis over the years went over the things listed in post number #111 above and took apart the claims made therein.

I have went over each point.....point by point.

(Yes it took me a long time to do, but I did it to show that there is really nothing to support any of the stuff found in post number #111 above)

I may have to do that again it seems?

Or I may just do a search, and post the link to what i have said here on the Walter Martin Forum before?...



Or....I guess I could just find a "Reasons To Believe " webpage that address all the claims and copy/paste that here.
After all if thats what people do to me, I guess I can play that same game too!


Quote by Thomas Paine;
“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture. Enjoy, sir, your insensibility of feeling and reflecting. It is the prerogative of animals.”

[alanmolstad]

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.
that seems like an evolution question?

Now I know I must be mistaken about that, after all I have said over and over that I do not teach nor defend evolution...so I trust you did not just ask me one correct?

For a more clear understanding of my views, see post #44 of this topic.

[alanmolstad]

I will ask you a question.....

Now my question will be a Bible question and it has a nice little Bible answer,

Here is my question -
According to the Bible where was man created?

[MichaellS]

May God grant me repentance for over-displaying love’s trampled pearls?


“But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.” (II Tim 2:23)
I would have been better off listening to God in the first place,

Like He said, sometimes, no matter what you say to some people, “, , they will not be persuaded.” (Luke 16:31)

Why do we listen to other verses on this topic, because we love God..


Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.” (John 14:23-24)

Anyone who loves God has entered a new phase in life, and become aware of what the flesh likes to do,


“You were taught, , to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires.” (Ephesians 4:22)

“By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.” (1 John 3:8-10)

To say we practice righteousness, and say we love our brother is not enough, we must abide by and be known by those traits to avoid living in hypocrisy before God. And we don’t willingly fall prey to things held in question by many Christians,


“My son, do not walk in the way with them; hold back your foot from their paths.” (Proverbs 1:15)

“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door” (Luke 13:24-27)

To turn from contemplating the advice of Christians is entirely foolhardy and dangerous,


“Those who trust their own insight are foolish, but anyone who walks in wisdom is safe.” (Proverbs 28:26)

“To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech. “ (Proverbs 8:13)

“We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.” (John 9:31)

If we abide by His will, there will not be a pattern of un-willingness to discuss all ***ociated points of instruction concerning that will. A person who tells you to avoid discussion from the word expressing strong reasoning for, OR against any topic is a deceiver.

Again, if a person avoids scriptures that safeguard the race we run in Christ, that person is a deceiver!

[MichaellS]

Quote by Thomas Paine;
“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture. Enjoy, sir, your insensibility of feeling and reflecting. It is the prerogative of animals.”

Right on, and hello Disciple!

I was sorry to learn Mr Paine didn't enjoy the fruits of his brilliance upon p***ing from this life.

One of his closest friends, Mr B. Franklin I think abandoned him much too soon.

[alanmolstad]

still ducking my question eh MichaellS ?....

[alanmolstad]

the key teaching of the YEC cult is the idea that God created a "light" way before he created a source for that light to come from.
This forced the YEC teachers to come up with all kinds of reasons for the light to be.
All these reasons have no known way that science can support them, nor do we see their so-called "source-less light"in our world today.

So right off the bat the too-trusting Bible student is forced into a corner that demands that they either deny the world of science, or deny the bible.

However, there is good news!

I bring good news to the Bible students of the world, for Im here to say that if you just go back and read the text of the bible, and believe it as written, then you dont need to abandon science or your faith.

You can believe that science is doing a fine *** at learning truths about early Earth history, and you can have faith that we live in a world totally created by a loving God.

[alanmolstad]

the teaching I bring only requires that the Bible student read and trust the bible as written.

An example: when the Bible tells us at Genesis 1:1 that god created the "Heavens" first in the beginning, we are to read it and believe it as written.

We dont need to twist some other false teaching into the verse..

The verse reads just fine...



If anyone reading this would like more information on what Im teaching here, just send me a private Message and I will be very happy to answer any questions about how the Story of Genesis works well with the teachings of Evolution.

[jude1:3]

Pick One:



the Story of Genesis works well with the teachings of Evolution.

OR


I do not defend evolution, nor do I teach it...


http://media.moddb.com/images/articles/1/108/107299/evolution.jpg


OR


https://cdn.unifiedcommerce.com/content/product/large/38004CLE.jpg





You can't have both Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Young earth creationism is a wrong teaching and is evil.
You can't serve God and serve the devil

[MichaellS]

Yep, confusing enough for me, all confusion seeping from the annals of support for evolution. I wouldn't be surprised that it isn't just a seeping from, what often goes un-noticed is the dependency on a certain amount of confusion. And what we now have going on is the difference between the deceitful desires vs those who inspect as God expects from His people.

I am still a searcher who wants to know truth, for I don’t know as I ought. Somebody help me gain truth from all this bickering. What? Oh thank God for the Apostle Paul,


“God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” (1 Corinthians 14:33)

Are you ready ladies and gentlemen? Let the hordes of tradition seekers come and sneer and take my life if need be if that is the sum total within their heart, it cannot touch the faith of those who follow the righteous, Jesus Christ.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Yep,...] nope...you don't get to play until you answer your Genesis 1:1 question

[MichaellS]

nope...you don't get to play until you answer your Genesis 1:1 question

My goodness how accurate you are, it is no fun at all to fellowship with others at your expense. But that’s alright, I didn’t expect it to be too noticeable even when someone verbalizes it for you. It’s just that same self-induced cage you’ve subjected yourself to, and a supreme shame to this ENTIRE THREAD!

[alanmolstad]

for those of you just joining us,I have asked MichaellS a question about Genesis 1:1


The question is this:
"What does the Bible say at Genesis 1:1 is the very first thing God created "In the beginning?"



Now you may be asking yourself, "That seems like a very easy to answer question out of the text, so whats the deal?...why does not MichaellS answer it?"
And you are correct it is a very easy question to answer as to answer it you simply quote the text as written. God did not hide the truth kids...

But the reluctance to answer this question is not based out of confusion as to what the answer is, rather any person that believes the Young Earth Creationism (YEC) sack of lies will look at this question and worry that if they answer it truthfully they totally undercut their own words and teachings on this matter.

You see kids, the Bible even at the very start,even at Genesis 1:1 undercuts the whole set of YEC teachings! and the teachers of YEC recognize this danger to their views if they attempt answering my question.


But I will pose this question to them to openly show the YEC teachings to be what they are...."chicken"...they are afraid to deal honestly with what the Text of the Bible says at Genesis 1:1, so they run from it and attempt to change the topic and flee from being caught unable to answer even the first verse of the Bible.


And its just not MichaellS here that is unable to answer my Genesis 1:1 question.

The high and mighty of the YEC teachers have also failed to be able to give me any answer to my question.
(Thats right kids, Im talking about Mr Ken Ham himself was asked this same question by me, in-person, during his 8-week ORIGINS cl*** that I attended)

So that is why I dont ever expect a average believer in the cult of the YEC teachings to answer my question....

They only have their YEC videos and websites to get all their teachings from, and the best they are able to manage when dealing with my question is to all just dodge the question the same way MichaellS does here, the same way Ken Ham did in front of me personally.

YEC is not a teaching that is based out of the Bible, and thats why when you go after a person that trusts in the YEC teachings with a Bible question they flee from it ....
They cant handle any Bible-based questions as that would require they find a bible-based answer....

and there are no Bible-based answers in YEC..


and never were....

[MichaellS]

There you go at the same blather, denying the Christ (by denying His words) is a serious affair. Don’t be deceived.

blath·er
verb
1. talk long-windedly without making very much sense.

Why won’t I deal with your question? Not for the reason you conclude, the real reason for me went the other way long ago. The real reason I won’t deal with your question rest solely on this reason that has nothing to do with YEC teaching at all. It has to do with the MORE IMPORTANT REASON.

What is more important to Alan is obvious. But I’m not interested in,

somewhat important,
kind of important,
pretty important,
very important,
or m***ively important

Alan’s view of importance here isn’t among any of these. Alan wishes to drop everything pertaining to following the Christ on this subject for the top priority, the young earth teaching. Everything included referencing the Bible dealing with this very thing which amounts to following the Christ, Alan willingly dissed on over and over.

Is the reader willing to drop all other related p***ages for a mentality in bondage to any number of confusing entries of evolution? The reader is likely no child to be so foolish, but knows and understands, better to trust in the Lord, than one’s own insights. That is done by bringing it into the light of exposure.

This exposure has throughout this thread riddle with ambiguous responses from Alan’s inability to answer clearly. That is the results of nurturing one’s own insights not based in the entire will of God found in the entire word of God.

Conclusion, resistant insight vs the word of God (all). The reader will most likely choose the safe choice.

[alanmolstad]

for those of you just joining us,I have asked MichaellS a question about Genesis 1:1


The question is this:
"What does the Bible say at Genesis 1:1 is the very first thing God created "In the beginning?"



.....


Now that we have seen the question asked again and again,and we have watched the many people flee from answering it out of fear of undercutting their position,we should now take a moment to answer this question abut what is being taught at Genesis 1:1


So lets ask the question once again, and then answer it!

QUESTION : At Genesis 1:1 what does the bible say is the first thing god created "In the beginning"?

ANSWER:"In the beginning,God created the Heavens and the earth"



There, that was not so hard now was it?



But to back this idea up the person new to this topic might ask me for more information to counter the lies told by the teachers of YEC...so I will do a search now and give you a link to more reading on this matter...


Stay Tuned!

[alanmolstad]

"Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Volumes have been written about the first verse of Genesis. There are a two main interpretations of what this verse really means. Some say that the verse is a summary of the rest of the Genesis creation account. Others say that the verse represents the first creative act of God. How can we tell which interpretation is correct?
Day 1

The answer is really quite simple - keep reading! Reading Genesis 1:1 or any other Bible verse outside its context is one of the worst things that a person can do.2 When we look at Genesis 1:2,3 we see that it begins with the conjunction "and." This fact immediately tells us that Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are part of one continuous thought. Remove the period at the end of Genesis 1:1 and read it as originally intended:

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was formless and void...

Holman QuickSource Guide to Understanding CreationThe conjunction at the beginning of Genesis 1:2 tells us that Genesis 1:1 is not a summary of the creation account! This verse is a factual statement of what God did at the beginning of the first day. There are other context clues that tell us that this is not a summary statement. If we continue reading the Genesis creation account, we come to the real summary at the end (Genesis 2:1).4 It would be superfluous to have a second summary at the beginning. As we continue to read Genesis one, we will notice how succinct the creation account really is.

So, we conclude that the text claims that God created the heavens and earth on the first day. What do the heavens consist of? Stars, galaxies, etc. So, we know that God created, at minimum, the stars and the earth. Actually, the Hebrew phrase translated "heaven and earth" refer to the entire created universe. Some people claim that God created the earth first and that the rest of the heavenly bodies were created later. However, we are led to contemplate why God said that He created the "heavens and the earth." To accept this interpretation, we would have to say that God created "nothing" and the earth. If God had only created the earth, the Genesis 1:1 would have said, "In the beginning God created the earth." So, we can safely say that God created the entire heavens and earth at the beginning of the first creation day."



http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/genesis1.html

[jude1:3]

Young earth creationism is a wrong teaching and is evil.
You can't serve God and serve the devil





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5JNU_r14u8&app=desktop

[alanmolstad]

So, we conclude that the text claims that God created the heavens and earth on the first day. What do the heavens consist of? Stars, galaxies, etc. So, we know that God created, at minimum, the stars and the earth.

Actually, the Hebrew phrase translated "heaven and earth" refer to the entire created universe.

Some people claim that God created the earth first and that the rest of the heavenly bodies were created later.

However, we are led to contemplate why God said that He created the "heavens and the earth."

To accept this interpretation, we would have to say that God created "nothing" and the earth.

If God had only created the earth, the Genesis 1:1 would have said, "In the beginning God created the earth."

So, we can safely say that God created the entire heavens and earth at the beginning of the first creation day."






I think the above quote is the most close to the very same things I have been saying all this time!

Great minds do think alike I guess... :)

[MichaellS]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5JNU_r14u8

Woe. Our resident evolutionists will either confirm or deny this with the following response.

But the pattern to avoid this danger is stunning. We shouldn't marvel when someone falls into this, only do as the Lord instructed. As in previous statements.

[MichaellS]

Double-woe! Did you see that J-3? While it is not confirmation, for an evolutionist to bail upon the released information of demonic ties is definitely a red-flag!!!

“A man deserves a second chance, but keep an eye on him.” – J. Wayne

[jude1:3]

Alan ran away from the thread.

[MichaellS]

Back in October of 2013, Ravi Zacharias, chief editor of Walter Martin’s book, Kingdom of the Cults said the greatest lie facing today’s culture is in fact, “The Death of Truth and the Decline of Culture”.

The death of truth is to turn from the bible, this much we know; and the decline of culture is when we replace that turn with tradition, which Jesus condemned.

Ravi continued,


“Evolution cannot be a theory of ultimate origins, it’s operation presupposes the existence of certain en***ies with specific potential behaviors and an environment of some specific kind that operates upon those en***ies in some specifically ordered fashion. The type of structure found in evolution did not itself come through evolution.”

We have responded with the truth to support this over the course of many post here. And it works hand-in-hand with Ravi’s comment that’s worth repeating I think, “Evolution cannot be a theory of ultimate origins”.

Those of us who have become accustom to the scriptures can see why he said that for a host of reasons. Unfortunately for those who don’t have that type of grounding will find it difficult to weigh from two opposing views. To those who aren’t that well equipped in the word will see this as just another argument of opinion. But if they are following close, will see, those here who oppose evolution don’t let ourselves fall prey to imagination contrary to God’s truth. That leads to more and more confusion.

But I do have another certain confusion here, and it does not stop with those espousing a faith in Jesus while holding on to evolution doing everything they can to avoid the all-encomp***ing truth, my misunderstanding continues over this web-site bearing the Christian apologist’s name (Walter Martin) and permit themselves (owner/moderator) to host the demonic teaching of evolution? I say host, as in allowing it to permeate with no regard to the scriptures that just corrected it. That serves as a breach of honor to the will of God.

This just doesn’t make sense how after this teaching is solidly crushed by the truth, yet is allowed the welcome mat is wrong and leads one to question the spiritual condition at the helm. Is Walter Martin Forums today wanting to establish a new precedence? Is it wanting to now be known as a bible discussion board of moral relativist’s, seeking personal ambitions over the most important reason of the Christian faith? Even their own editor of Kingdom of the Cults would avoid being kept from publicly announcing aspects of His truth, a personal relationship with Jesus while condoning evolution. He would find it, impossible!


“Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.” (John 14:24) - Jesus

It's just what people do. So if we don’t listen, how can we obey, and if we don’t obey, how can we love, and if we don’t love Him, we go to hell.


"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus, he is to be accursed. Maranathat." (I Corinthians 16:22)

There’s your cult.

[alanmolstad]

Alan ran away from the thread.
I had car problems in Fargo today...so I was not really in the mood for posting here.

I am however still looking to see if my Genesis 1:1 question has been answered yet?

[alanmolstad]

the key teaching of the YEC cult is the idea that God created a "light" way before he created a source for that light to come from.
This forced the YEC teachers to come up with all kinds of reasons for the light to be.
All these reasons have no known way that science can support them, nor do we see their so-called "source-less light"in our world today.

So right off the bat the too-trusting Bible student is forced into a corner that demands that they either deny the world of science, or deny the bible.

However, there is good news!

I bring good news to the Bible students of the world, for Im here to say that if you just go back and read the text of the bible, and believe it as written, then you dont need to abandon science or your faith.

You can believe that science is doing a fine *** at learning truths about early Earth history, and you can have faith that we live in a world totally created by a loving God.

[jude1:3]

I had car problems in Fargo today...so I was not really in the mood for posting here.




I'm glad you're back in the thread.

[alanmolstad]

I always ask people that if I ever say anything on this topic that they dont think I have support for in the Bible, they should ask me to list the bible verse that teaches what im saying?

[jude1:3]

I always ask people that if I ever say anything on this topic that they dont think I have support for in the Bible, they should ask me to list the bible verse that teaches what im saying?



You have been given several verses from the Bible from other posters that you have chosen to ignore.

[MichaellS]

I always ask people that if I ever say anything on this topic that they dont think I have support for in the Bible, they should ask me to list the bible verse that teaches what im saying?

Let’s go at this from a different angle, shall we?

What would you tell a brother or sister if they held this view as the only possible one to conclude, that being,

‘The Gospel of Mark is the only thing we should read in the entire Bible, the only set of verses in the Bible because of three small words within one OT proclamation, the first part of Psalm 37:37


“Mark the perfect man, , ,” (Ps 37:37)


“Yes, there is much more to that verse, but that isn’t important. What’s important is that because of these three fabulous words, we have all the insight we’ll ever need that covers the whole Bible. Can you believe this revelation that I and I’m sure many will soon catch onto, that the book or gospel of Mark is the only thing we have to concern ourselves with.”

For this is our contention here, the harder we say to the Gospel of Mark people, ‘look at the rest’, the harder they hunker down to insure keeping the "revelation" in pristine condition, by a hands off at***ude,


“Can’t you see what we have here? This is what we’ve waited for, all else you want to throw at this doesn’t fit, for this alone cancels all the rest, so stop worrying about it, just believe”.

Here is my new question. How do you instruct someone out of this error?

You tell us, for we would like to know.


“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, , “ (2 Timothy 3:16)

[MichaellS]

(Not seen, possible repeat)

Let’s go at this from a different angle, shall we?

What would you tell a brother or sister if they held this view as the only possible one to conclude, that being,

‘The Gospel of Mark is the only thing we should read in the entire Bible, the only set of verses in the Bible because of three small words within one OT proclamation, the first part of Psalm 37:37


“Mark the perfect man, , ,” (Ps 37:37)


“Yes, there is much more to that verse, but that isn’t important. What’s important is that because of these three fabulous words, we have all the insight we’ll ever need that covers the whole Bible. Can you believe this revelation that I and I’m sure many will soon catch onto, that the book or gospel of Mark is the only thing we have to concern ourselves with.”

For this is our contention here, the harder we say to the Gospel of Mark people, ‘look at the rest’, they hunker down to insure keeping the revelation in pristine condition, by a hands off at***ude,


“Can’t you see what we have here? This is what we’ve waited for, all else you want to throw at this doesn’t fit, this alone cancels all the rest, so stop worrying about it, just believe”.

Here is my new question. How do you instruct someone out of this error?

You tell us, we would like to know.


“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, , “ (2 Timothy 3:16)

[alanmolstad]

I'm sure that any genesis verse dealing with the topic is answered.

I'm also sure that a YEC member will never want to ask me about a verse in Genesis. ..LOL

[MichaellS]

(Not seen, possible repeat)

Let’s go at this from a different angle, shall we?

What would you tell a brother or sister if they held this view as the only possible one to conclude, that being,

‘The Gospel of Mark is the only thing we should read in the entire Bible, the only set of verses in the Bible because of three small words within one OT proclamation, the first part of Psalm 37:37


“Mark the perfect man, , ,” (Ps 37:37)


“Yes, there is much more to that verse, but that isn’t important. What’s important is that because of these three fabulous words, we have all the insight we’ll ever need that covers the whole Bible. Can you believe this revelation that I and I’m sure many will soon catch onto, that the book or gospel of Mark is the only thing we have to concern ourselves with.”

For this is our contention here, the harder we say to the Gospel of Mark people, ‘look at the rest’, they hunker down to insure keeping the revelation in pristine condition, by a hands off at***ude,


“Can’t you see what we have here? This is what we’ve waited for, all else you want to throw at this doesn’t fit, this alone cancels all the rest, so stop worrying about it, just believe”.

Here is my new question. How do you instruct someone out of this error?

You tell us, we would like to know.


“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, , “ (2 Timothy 3:16)


Apparently you missed the question.

[MichaellS]

Apparently you missed the question.

Surely, you’re not so hunkered down that you are poisoned from answering straightforward hypothetical questioning are you?

Go ahead, bounce your best hypothetical onto me. You won’t find me in a stuffy posture.

[alanmolstad]

Go ahead, bounce your best hypothetical onto me. You won’t find me in a stuffy posture.


See post number # 106 of this topic.

[alanmolstad]

Surely, you’re not so hunkered down that you are poisoned from answering straightforward hypothetical questioning are you?



See post number # 136 this topic

[alanmolstad]

I talk about the text in Genesis
In response: I have my faith questioned.

and I let it slide...



I list verses that support my views on Genesis
In response: Im told we should not call into question the views of the majority.

and I let it slide...



I ask for any questions about what i teach and seek a chance to go over any bible verse dealing with Genesis.
In response: I see people attack this forum for even allowing this conversation.

and I let it slide...



I ask a question about what the bible says at Genesis 1:1?
In response: Im told that there must be something wrong with the MODs of this website.

and I let it slide...



I find that there is none that dare challenge me on the topic of Genesis teachings, and I find that personal attacks are the only thing left to try against me.

and I let it slide...




I find that people that claim to have lots of Bible Smarts, cant allow themselves to answer my Bible questions because they know I have a whole pile of things to use once they open the door by first answering my question.

I speak on this topic a lot and I always quote Dr Walter Martin and other guest hosts of the Bible Answer Man show a lot as well, as they are the people that I listened to and learned from in all that I teach here.

In response:...Im told that a Walter Martin-named forum should not allow* questions about Genesis in the first place.

and I let it slide...



( * I guess they were listening to a different BAM radio show, because the one I listened to had a Genesis/evolution question nearly every day from someone seeking answers from Walter on the topic!

And also: Some people have told me that Walter did not believe in Evolution, and I point out that Walter was very clear that he did not believe in a god-less teaching of evolution that had no room for God's hand in the way life was formed on this earth.

I point out that what Walter rejected was this idea of "non-directed" evolution.

I point out that Walter had to answer a genesis/evolution question all the time on his show,and in every case he always made sure in his answers that he allowed for the Millions and Billions of years of earth history that science has shown has happened.

I point out that Walter was known for his answer of "What does it matter how long it took?"....pointing out to people that regardless if life took 6 days, 6 billion years, or 6 minutes, it was still God that created that life!

I point out that the person I think was the best guest on the BAM show was Ken Samples, and he is part of the REASONS TO BELIEVE website.....so go check it out for yourself!)

[jude1:3]

Surely, you’re not so hunkered down that you are poisoned from answering straightforward hypothetical questioning are you?

Go ahead, bounce your best hypothetical onto me. You won’t find me in a stuffy posture.


He refuses to answer straight forward questions or address posts that clearly refute his posts. He just ignores them and avoids them.

[MichaellS]

He refuses to answer straight forward questions or address posts that clearly refute his posts. He just ignores them and avoids them.

Cl***ic wolf in sheep’s clothing, the longer he waits (and it has been a long time), the clearer it gets.

Extremely rude at best, but more true to form as a false teacher, the reasoning of which we have described and he continues to ignore. Let’s not forget, this attempt to sanitize his scaled back Genesis formula so he can again falsely teach “from Genesis” needs to be known and established. I understand why Disciple is at times more forgiving to this degree, but that kindness though correctly given, is incorrectly received being hostile to our reason. And look what that has done.

Still, after all this, I don’t think it’s time to take his contributions down with a series of bitter and disappointing threads. The good patience the Lord instills should be given place as well. Knowing we too were once in need is a testimony in itself, even in the midst of sneers.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Cl***ic ......

At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created "in the beginning"?

[MichaellS]

At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created "in the beginning"?


“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (Genesis 1:1-5 NASB)

When I look at these verses, I take them for everything they are. What do I mean by “everything”? Everything as God would have me to know. For it is said by Him on understanding things in scripture,
things that are “not for you to know”, and there are things that are “oh the depth” sorts.

At this point of your pulling out of participating in the discussion, it may be an exercise in futility in detailing things. But here, for creations account, as with many other p***age, the reader should know how to both - 1.apply and 2.resist each of these,

spiritually
simplicity
- - - - - - -
twisting
isolating
without adding
without subtracting

Of those listed, the first two, “spiritually” should not ever-ever-ever encounter nor be subject to the other item listed “isolating” which you seem fixated over. This is the correct and safe way to read the scriptures. Can you say the same for the list?

With this in mind, when you ask,


At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible say is the first thing God created

V1’s simplicity is clear, the “heavens and earth”.

But I got the feeling you are not content with the Lord’s simplicity. I got the feeling you will want to step out of the listed “apply” / “resist” I furnished. I hope I am wrong.

[alanmolstad]

Like I said before....I dont understand a word of your posts..

You write in a style that is impossible to make heads or tails of?

[alanmolstad]

I will just tell you a story;


At our church we got Ken Ham to come to our Bible cl*** and teach us his 8-week ORIGINS cl***.
What I learned during this 8-week cl*** is that all of the Young earth Creationism teachings are all based on non-Bible ideas.
Simply put, the YEC teachings are not found in the Bible.

I attended every cl*** of Ham's teachings, but I never raised my hand to ask a question except for one time.
I remember Ham was going on and on about the creation week time-line, and posting things on the blackboard, and he remarked that "According to the Bible the first thing God created is "light".

The moment I heard that, it struck me as simply being "wrong"

But as I kept listening to Ken teach it also became clear that all of YEC and its many invented teachings all HANG of this idea that the first thing God created was this "light" without a source.

I saw that every other teaching that Ken gave us, all hung on this core idea of him that God made light before he made a source for that light.

I raised my hand......

Ken called on me, and I spoke my question .

I asked Ken Ham the following question - "What does the bible say at Genesis 1:1 is the very first thing God created in the beginning?"



Now you have to understand the context of the room to understand what happened later.
For this room was filled with the guys I had been going to church with for along-long time....these were my friends, and yet they were also the same guys and girls I had disagreed with from time to time on this issue too.


After the cl***, I was surrounded by the guys in the cl***, and they started to ask me questions about what I had asked about with Ken Ham.
Theyt all wanted to know what I was really getting at, because we all had seen that the answer Ken had given me ("Well that's what the bible just says, but that's not what it means") clearly was ducking the issue I had raised.

So after that cl***, we sat around and I opened the Bible with the guys and we went over, point by point what the bible says, and we compared it to the teachings we had just heard Ken Ham teach us.

What we all saw was that "Ken is just simply wrong"



You see, right after Ken had given me his answer "Well that's what the bible just says, but that's not what it means", I responded with, "Thats why I asked you what it "says?""




Ken's whole teaching concept is to get people to not read what the Bible "says" rather its to get the students in my cl*** to just look at what the YEC textbooks teaches the Bible"means".

and.........lets just say that this suddenly became clear to a whole bunch of students that day in my Bible cl***.





Now I ask you guys here on this Walter martin forum the same question, and because you see that the Bible clearly "says" something that you know in your hearts runs counter to the teachings of Ken Ham, you are very reluctant to answer my simple question about Genesis 1:1.

But you need not be shy about this verse.

It's not a trick question.

Im not here to tell you what the verse "means"

Im simply attempting to point out to Bible students what the verse "says"

[alanmolstad]

now....where did I first notice this difference between what the Bible 'says"at Gen 1:1 and what the YEC teachers want us to believe it "means"?




It was along time ago...

I learned this while listening to the bible Answer man show.

My memory fades, but as i remember....


a caller called-in with a question for Walter and/or Samples.
The caller talked about being in a discussion with a co-worker that is not a believer.
They had talked about Genesis and evolution, and the caller was asking for advice and stuff to tell his co-worker.

At first the caller seemed to be in much agreement with show's host, then at what might have been the end of the call, the caller was talking about pointing out to his co-worker next time that the Bible teaches that God created the "light" before He created the "sun" on the 4th day.

That is where host of the show corrected the caller, by pointing out that this "idea" was not found in the Text.

The called was stumped....?

The caller had no idea that this was true...?


But the host of the show pointed out that the Bible does not actually teach that God made the "light" before the "sun".


Then the conversation turned to the text found at Genesis 1:1

God's word teaches that the "Heavens" were created first ,in the beginning (before all other things)And, that the term "Heavens" is talking about in that context the full canopy of stars seen in the sky........and by the way, our "sun" is included within the term "Heavens"

I remembered the simple logic of reading the text of the Bible as it is written, and how that is so much more simple than the twisted reasoning found in the YEC teachings.




It was like the caller had had the blinders pulled off his eyes for the first time....
The caller was suddenly shown that there is a whole new world of stuff to see in the bible once you free yourself from the invented teachings of the YEC books.

[disciple]

now....where did I first notice this difference between what the Bible 'says"at Gen 1:1 and what the YEC teachers want us to believe it "means"?




It was along time ago...

I learned this while listening to the bible Answer man show.

My memory fades, but as i remember....


a caller called-in with a question for Walter and/or Samples.
The caller talked about being in a discussion with a co-worker that is not a believer.
They had talked about Genesis and evolution, and the caller was asking for advice and stuff to tell his co-worker.

At first the caller seemed to be in much agreement with show's host, then at what might have been the end of the call, the caller was talking about pointing out to his co-worker next time that the Bible teaches that God created the "light" before He created the "sun" on the 4th day.

That is where host of the show corrected the caller, by pointing out that this "idea" was not found in the Text.

The called was stumped....?

The caller had no idea that this was true...?


But the host of the show pointed out that the Bible does not actually teach that God made the "light" before the "sun".


Then the conversation turned to the text found at Genesis 1:1

God's word teaches that the "Heavens" were created first ,in the beginning (before all other things)And, that the term "Heavens" is talking about in that context the full canopy of stars seen in the sky........and by the way, our "sun" is included within the term "Heavens"

I remembered the simple logic of reading the text of the Bible as it is written, and how that is so much more simple than the twisted reasoning found in the YEC teachings.




It was like the caller had had the blinders pulled off his eyes for the first time....
The caller was suddenly shown that there is a whole new world of stuff to see in the bible once you free yourself from the invented teachings of the YEC books.

Alan, from the start, this conversation has been addressing your belief that the theory of evolution is correct when the first book of the Bible, clearly indicates that the work of creation was done in six, twenty-four-hour days.
Evolution directly contradicts Genesis and denies God’s creative power. Just as Christ performed miracles instantaneously while He was here on earth, so also He did His work of creation instantaneously during Creation week. Jesus made enough loaves and fish to feed thousands, instantly. He raised the dead and gave sight to the blind instantly. The Bible says, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . . For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast” Psalm 33:6, 9. God says, “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded” Isaiah 45:12. One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution. God did not use evolution to create the world and all that is in it, He spoke and it existed.

[MichaellS]

How does Alan inoculate himself from reasoning he doesn’t agree with? By deflecting it with “I don’t understand”.

That is why you don’t pick it up with a little for***ude to return questioning point–by-point to break it down.

Of course, everyone knows the simplicity I took the time to include like,


V1’s simplicity is clear, the “heavens and earth”.
But you don’t understand terms like “simplicity is clear”. You deflect with 'it is too far out in left field.' – com’n!!!!

Now, enough of the deflection, what is it about my list for sound scripture reading don’t you understand?

Did you get that? Try it again.

What is it about my list for sound scripture reading don’t you understand?

But don’t post too many questions about my list in #162, I don’t want to run the risk of confusing you.

There you go, a painfully simple question.

[MichaellS]

Alan, from the start, this conversation has been addressing your belief that the theory of evolution is correct when the first book of the Bible, clearly indicates that the work of creation was done in six, twenty-four-hour days.
Evolution directly contradicts Genesis and denies God’s creative power. Just as Christ performed miracles instantaneously while He was here on earth, so also He did His work of creation instantaneously during Creation week. Jesus made enough loaves and fish to feed thousands, instantly. He raised the dead and gave sight to the blind instantly. The Bible says, “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . . For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast” Psalm 33:6, 9. God says, “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded” Isaiah 45:12. One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution. God did not use evolution to create the world and all that is in it, He spoke and it existed.

Goood verses, ones not to isolate from Genesis, which seems to be the determination of his.

[alanmolstad]

......and gave sight to the blind instantly....

He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village.
When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"
He looked up and said, "I see people; they look like trees walking around."
Once more Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.


After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes.
Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means "Sent"). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

[MichaellS]

To those who are curious or new to what the heck is going on here, , you are correct in asking.

I suppose the best way to clear up this petulant trait you now see is because someone’s desire to capitalize on whatever exposure he can have for the purpose of promoting evolution. But we see he isn’t content with just promotion, but domination of a thought that has been correctly refuted from God’s word. In other words, he also isn't here to debate.

Now, with this last post, the desperation is evident. Deflections right and left, whatever it takes to remain on the thread unscathed. Yeah right, that’s what I thought you may have been thinking, you don’t buy that either.

If he was an open minded person, you could ask him “Why”, but a Deflection Meister, who supports an imagination thrown down by God’s will found in the scriptures (without partiality) doesn’t want to cede imaginary ground. He wants you and I to join in his devaluing the word of God and all it is profitable for.

He won’t like my robust theory I think he’s involved with.

Apparently, that won’t be a problem since the moderators here don’t mind anyone repeatedly distressing the threads with clearly un-scriptural agitations as this resident evolutionist does.

Heckuva party you got going on Alan, gee thanks! Not!

[alanmolstad]

Alan, from the start, ............I believe "from the start" I have said, over and over that when you stick to the text as written in the Bible that you will not find any anti-evolution arguments in the Bible.
(I will be going into this more in a next post)

And that if you stick to the text you will notice that you always end up at the same place that evolution ends up when you trace back all life to the source in both Genesis and in evolution.
That the two works agree on a common starting point for all life.
And that both genesis and evolution agree that humans and all animals ( like the great apes ), share a common source.

[alanmolstad]

So after that cl***, we sat around and I opened the Bible with the guys and we went over, point by point what the bible says, and we compared it to the teachings we had just heard Ken Ham teach us.

....

Although there was no recording to what we talked about after cl***, I do remember many of the high points of the conversation and how I was hit with question after question and how I was able to answer things with just the text of the bible as it is written.

It went something like this -

Q -what did you mean with your question?
Alan -I was pointing out that the Bible does not teach that god created Ken's "Light with no source" first at Gen 1:1.

Q - what do You think was created first?
A - just what it says in the text was created first..."The Heavens"

Q- what are the "Heavens in that verse?
A - all the Stars in the universe.

Q - so you think God made the stars like our sun first?
A - yes, that is clearly what the text says.

Q - But aren't you also replacing the word "Heavens" with your idea of "Our sun"?
A - no, the correct word is "Heavens "if you want to say that God created all the "suns" in the universe, the correct word to describe all the suns and stars and other worlds is "Heavens".

Q-but does not the Bible say that the sun and moon were created on the 4th day?
A- no, the 4th day never says for one second that the "sun"was created on the 4th day,look it up!

Q - but it talks about a "Greater light" that has to mean the sun's light correct?
A - oh yes, its the sun's "greater light" that is true...but the "Greater light" of the sun is not the same thing as the sun itself.

Q - but how can you make the light and not have the sun itself?
A - thats my question for Ken's teaching as well....For Ken lights the earth with a magic light with no source. But Im saying that there was a source at Genesis 1:1. Im saying that at Genesis 1:1 God created the stars like our sun and that is the source for all the light later described.

Q - so what are you saying God created on the 4th day?
A - just what is talked about on the 4th day! The thing that changed was the "AMOUNT" of light that was seen on the earth...
Go look it up yourself! The thing talked about is the "Greater and lesser' amounts of light.

Q - but does not the text say that God also made the stars on the 4th day?
A - no, the words 'also made" are added to make the text agree with YEC but that is not actually how the verse reads in the Hebrew.

Q - so what is happening to the stars on the 4th day then if they are not said to be made in the Hebrew on the 4th day?
A - they (the stars) along with the night , are said to be ruled over by the lesser light.
Look dont just take my word for it, just go read it again and this time dont use the clearly added words and you will find that the sentence works just fine without them.

[alanmolstad]

I will continue to describe more of that conversation later tonight....stay tuned!

[alanmolstad]

It became clear to me while talking with my friends after our ORIGINS cl*** (taught by Ken Ham personally) that there were a lot of the students who also shared my gut-feeling that what were were learning in the cl*** was simply not right....

It simply just did not agree with the Text.

The cl*** that Ken taught simply did not present the Bible as written, but rather seemed to rely on a lot of anti-evolution arguments and actually there were very few times when the Bible was refereed to.

We students got into dealing with the subject of the "Light" in our conversation, and there was a lot of interest in how I could say that the sun and stars were the first things the Bible listed as being created first, and yet the Bible also saying the earth was in "darkness"?

I remember a lot of the things we talked about, here now is a short bit of that conversation as I think back...



Question - "But Alan, if you say the Sun was already made, why then does it say the earth was in darkness?"
Alan - "The "darkness " and the reason for it is talked about in *** 38. The reason is said to be that God wrapped the early Earth in a thick wrapping of clouds."

Q - "But where did the clouds come from?"
A - "That is talked about in Genesis 2, where it says that a "mist" came up from underground and watered the whole earth...By the way this also agrees with how science tells us the water we see got here."

Q - "But Genesis 2 comes after Genesis 1 right?"
A- "Well it actually is describing events that happen very early in earths history."

Q - "But the Text says the earth was "without form and void"...so how can you say the earth was so completed?"
A - "The phrase "without form" is dealing with the same thing you find when you are standing on a country road and it's very foggy out. You can hear a truck approaching you but you cant see it. You know the truck is real, you know its getting closer to you, but you cant see it yet. It is just as real as it can be, yet from your point of view it is "without form". The word "void" is simply talking about there not being any people yet."



What I was showing my friends after Ken Ham's ORIGINS cl***, is that there are no real arguments found in the Genesis text that stand against science nor against the teachings of evolution.

The Text we have describes the same points in early Earth's history that science has been telling us about, and there really is no need to have a 'cow' just because science and the Bible might use different words to describe the very same events!



Now , the big point in what had said to my friend back then after our cl***,is the same point I make here on this forum.
My point is that if you stick close to the written words foundin Genesis you dont run into any problems with the science of evolution.

We next got into a long conversation about the words "Day"....and ..."kinds"....as well as dealing with the whole issue of how life originates in the bible compared to evolution.


We shall begin to talk about all that next time..



stay tuned!

[MichaellS]

stay tuned!

It's all here, nothing more needed, lest the Lord leads. But He has called us to be "perfect", insisting on complicating the corrections listed here amounts to leading the people astray, and that is evil. Buyer Beware!


“Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching.” (John 14:24) - Jesus

[alanmolstad]

Q -what did you mean with your question?
Alan -I was pointing out that the Bible does not teach that god created Ken's "Light with no source" first at Gen 1:1.

.

I think now I will go over in more detail each of the answers I gave my cl***mates and talk about why each of my answers is so true.

In the very first question I was asked after our cl***, I answer that if you just stick to the Text as recorded in the Bible, you dont see ANY of the YEC teachings that Ken Ham was gushing about.

The Text clearly just teaches that God created the "Heavens" first,,,,thats just a fact that the YEC believers simply would like to make moot in the Bible.

Right after I told the guys that I was pointing out that the bible says a different thing than what Ken was teachings I got back the commonresponce,(Same responce that Ken had by the way.
"Well Alan, that maybe what the Bible says, but it means something else"

My answer to that was and still is this - "That is why I asked you "What does the Bible say? I'm not asking what doyou think it means?".Im only asking you what does the Bible say,?
."

The YEC believers that I have asked this question fear it....
they dont like to answer it.
The YEC believers that have been asked this question will try anything they can to duck from it because they know it points out the biggest flaw in TEC teachings.

I turned to the friend who had try to challenge me and asked him the same question again about what does the Bible "say?"

He would not answer me...
He knew that if he said the the bible says first that God created the "heavens' that all his objections to what i was pointing out to him would be rendered silly.
His point was silly because everyone listening now saw that I was right and that Ken Ham was in error.

The YEC teachings hold that God created a light first that had no known source in Genesis.
The YEC teachers then go on and on and add words and ideas to the text to build support for their invented teachings about light with no source....but their proof falls to the floor the moment you open the Bible and ask them "What does the Bible say at Genesis 1:1 was the first things God created In The Beginning?"


In my answer to my cl***mates I point out the difference between what Ken was teachings and what the Bible says in black and white.

From the reaction I got from my cl***mates, I could tell that this one simple question helped alot of the guys see what I and the Bible were saying...

[alanmolstad]

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.


I will tell you about a conversation I had:


Many years ago I was talking to a guy I knew ,and I also knew that he was a believer in the whole Young Earth Creationism stuff.
He also asked me to find a verse that teaches that "Man came from ape"

He used to smile when he asked me that question, because he knew enough about the Bible to know that there is no single verse that clearly teaches anything much about ape evolution...let alone that man evolved from one.

But rather than attempting to "teach"my friend anything,I went about this a different way...


I asked my friend, "According to what you know about the teachings of evolution, you believe it teaches that man came from ape?"
"Yes"was his answer.

"But what came before that? I asked.
"What do you mean?" was his response.

"I mean what came before the ape that you keep talking about according to evolution, or does evolution teach that apes just suddenly appeared on the earth out of thin air?"

He considered his answer, then spoke, "Well sure evolution teaches that there was something before the apes, but regardless its not what the Bible teaches."


I continued, "We will get to what the Bible teaches in a moment, but first I want to understand what you mean by evolution and how you understand what it's saying."

I let this sink in for a moment, then went on and asked him , "So you just said that according to evolution that there were earlier life forms before the apes, and so what was one of them?"

My friend answered, "I think that if you trace back life according to evolution, then you find that all the mammals are related, and then they are connected to fish,and then if you go back far enough in the way evolution looks at things we all started out as bacteria or something like that!"


I then press him and ask, "So there was nothing before the bacteria then?...are we to believe that evolution teaches that bacteria suddenly "popped" into being?...that evolution stops there?"

This caused my friend to pause a moment as he did not really know what to say to me I think, but then he added, "My guess is that before that you would be talking about inorganic things, different minerals and amino acids and organic compounds."


"Good answer" I told my friend. "And whats important about them is that what we are talking about is that according to the teachings of evolution , that you reject, we find that the very building blocks of all life come from this earth itself"

My friend responds "Yes, so what? Thats still very different than what the Bible teaches"


"Is it?" I ask, "Is it all that different than what the Bible teaches?"


I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.
"Let me read this to you, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr*** Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature. Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"




I paused for effect.....

Then said the following-

"What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution. But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from. So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

[MichaellS]

I will tell you about a conversation I had:


Many years ago I was talking to a guy I knew ,and I also knew that he was a believer in the whole Young Earth Creationism stuff.
He also asked me to find a verse that teaches that "Man came from ape"

He used to smile when he asked me that question, because he knew enough about the Bible to know that there is no single verse that clearly teaches anything much about ape evolution...let alone that man evolved from one.

But rather than attempting to "teach"my friend anything,I went about this a different way...


I asked my friend, "According to what you know about the teachings of evolution, you believe it teaches that man came from ape?"
"Yes"was his answer.

"But what came before that? I asked.
"What do you mean?" was his response.

"I mean what came before the ape that you keep talking about according to evolution, or does evolution teach that apes just suddenly appeared on the earth out of thin air?"

He considered his answer, then spoke, "Well sure evolution teaches that there was something before the apes, but regardless its not what the Bible teaches."


I continued, "We will get to what the Bible teaches in a moment, but first I want to understand what you mean by evolution and how you understand what it's saying."

I let this sink in for a moment, then went on and asked him , "So you just said that according to evolution that there were earlier life forms before the apes, and so what was one of them?"

My friend answered, "I think that if you trace back life according to evolution, then you find that all the mammals are related, and then they are connected to fish,and then if you go back far enough in the way evolution looks at things we all started out as bacteria or something like that!"


I then press him and ask, "So there was nothing before the bacteria then?...are we to believe that evolution teaches that bacteria suddenly "popped" into being?...that evolution stops there?"

This caused my friend to pause a moment as he did not really know what to say to me I think, but then he added, "My guess is that before that you would be talking about inorganic things, different minerals and amino acids and organic compounds."


"Good answer" I told my friend. "And whats important about them is that what we are talking about is that according to the teachings of evolution , that you reject, we find that the very building blocks of all life come from this earth itself"

My friend responds "Yes, so what? Thats still very different than what the Bible teaches"


"Is it?" I ask, "Is it all that different than what the Bible teaches?"


I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.
"Let me read this to you, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr*** Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature. Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"




I paused for effect.....

Then said the following-

"What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution. But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from. So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

No bible quoted, hello? Disciple asked for scripture. What the thread is to be concerned with is Bible scrutiny, not a promotional platform.

Your comment is void from the purpose of the thread.

[alanmolstad]

well different strokes for different folks I guess...

I ***ume everything and every topic is a platform for my views and a chance, if i want to take it, to dig deeper into what i believe and why.

If you dont like reading my posts?....then dont.

[MichaellS]

well different strokes for different folks I guess...I ***ume everything and every topic is a platform for my views and a chance, if i want to take it, to dig deeper into what i believe and why. If you dont like reading my posts?....then dont.

I’ll speak for myself. Stop jumping to conclusions of what I like...

So, again, your entry is invalid because you have not provided text to support your hypothesis with. This is a thread concerning Bible scrutiny, not imagination’s capacity. Use the Bible.

Stop throwing the thread.

Again and again. It may one day sink in,

Bible or Opinion,

Bible or Opinion, , , Which is this thread dealing with, , , Bible, or opinion?

Read the ***le for me once more and tell me what you see up there. Does the thread indicate dealing with opinion or scripture?

Bible, or opinion,

Bible, or opinion.

If we try, we can include the text to support our views. What text do you want to use for your lesson today?

[alanmolstad]

I like this part of my post the best -

"I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.

"Let me read this to you,-
Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.
Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree
Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"


What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution.
But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from.
So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

[MichaellS]

what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from.
So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."[/B]

Invalid as upon conjecture.

I've already illustrated the error strapped example of imagining things in the Bible.

Do you again need a refresher?

The rendering for invalid rest on II Pet 1:20.

But thanks anyways.

[alanmolstad]

"Let me read this to you,-
Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.
Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree
Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"



Now building on the above quotations taken directly out of the Bible, I have also pointed out in the past that the Bible also agrees with science as to the evolution of this earth and how it came to be the way it is.

And this also flies in the face of what the Young Earthers teach...LOL

The Young Earther has told me that the earth was created first as a wet world, covered in seas.....But I point out that this idea is not found in the bible.

I show how the Bible teaches that the earth was created first as a dry world in agreement with what science teaches....just to check this out look at Genesis 2:5and 6.

Lets read it now -
" Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

Here in this Bible quotation we are dealing with a time in early earth's history before water was see on the surface.
We are told that rain had not yet formed and fallen to the ground yet...

Where all the water came from on the earth now is told to us in verse 6, "but streams came up from the earth"....the word "streams" has a foot note that tells us that the other word correctly used here would be a "mist"

This idea of a "mist" that comes forth from out of the earth's interior is something that science has been talking about for years too.

Its fun to see how at every step we find that science and Genesis are walking hand-in-hand to bring to us a more well rounded understanding of early earth's history!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

"Let me read this to you,-
Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature.
Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree
Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"



Now building on the above quotations taken directly out of the Bible, I have also pointed out in the past that the Bible also agrees with science as to the evolution of this earth and how it came to be the way it is.

And this also flies in the face of what the Young Earthers teach...LOL

The Young Earther has told me that the earth was created first as a wet world, covered in seas.....But I point out that this idea is not found in the bible.

I show how the Bible teaches that the earth was created first as a dry world in agreement with what science teaches....just to check this out look at Genesis 2:5and 6.

Lets read it now -
" Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground

Here in this Bible quotation we are dealing with a time in early earth's history before water was see on the surface.
We are told that rain had not yet formed and fallen to the ground yet...

Where all the water came from on the earth now is told to us in verse 6, "but streams came up from the earth"....the word "streams" has a foot note that tells us that the other word correctly used here would be a "mist"

This idea of a "mist" that comes forth from out of the earth's interior is something that science has been talking about for years too.

Its fun to see how at every step we find that science and Genesis are walking hand-in-hand to bring to us a more well rounded understanding of early earth's history!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

so to review...

What we have now seen in the Bible's text is a story that walks in agreement with science as to the foundation of life on this world, and we have seen how the Bible is in agreement with how science tells us the earth was able to form water on its surface.

Now the next thing I would like to turn my attention to is dealing with the whole Genesis "light" issue.

This is the core disagreement I have with the Young Earth teachings, and so I think it would be great if I took a moment to truly see what the bible has to say about the Genesis "lights' and how that can compare with the way science teaches us about the appearance of light on this earth...

[MichaellS]

Buyer Beware, how not to post on this thread (troublemaker).


What we have now seen in the Bible's text is a story
My what a handy precursor flow we have here, , no Bible scrutiny from Alan or his like, ,


“and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.” (II Timothy 4:4)

When we snip and tag a p***age, the evil is glaringly abundant. So much energy trying to capitalize on Walter Martin’s reputation, who would have nothing to do with not holding up interpretation to a thread who’s purpose is to abide by the rules of the Christian forum of tranquil discussion, not troublesome posts excusing itself from, bible scrutiny.

[alanmolstad]

If you can't criticize what someone says on this forum, criticize the fact that they say it?.....is that what Im seeing now?






Over and over I ask you guys for any Bible verse connected to the topic of Origins that you would like me to look at or to talk about?...

But all I get in return is the comments that I should not even talk about evolution.


and over and over I invite people to put my ideas to the test and to open their Bible and see if what im saying is found in the Bible?

Yet all I get in return is once again "How dare you even talk about evolution!"





All I can say to that is that if you dont want anyone talking about evolution on the Walter martin forum?...thats just too bad!




This section of the WM forum is setup to have these types of conversations, and this is where I like to spend my time dealing with this whole topic.
And Im not going anywhere!


That JUDE guy who used to post here also would not try to challenge me with the bible because clearly he knew he was not up to that...so he too would just say, "How dare you talk about that!"

and all I got to say in response to that is "Thats just too bad!"





So its like this:
If you actually got a verse that deal with the topic of Origins /genesis/evolution then Im interested....lets see what you got!

But if your only response to what im teaching here is "How dare you teach that" then Im just going to ignore your posts as I continue teaching what I believe is the Bible-backed truth.


You can be part of that discussion, or you can do something else I dont care.
But regardless of whatever you do Im still going to keep teaching Truth and posting Bible verses and making total fun of the YEC teachings.

[alanmolstad]

The lights of genesis was on my list of things next to talk about.

The fact is, all the silly and invented teachings we call "Young Earth Creationism" (YEC) all come out of the way the YEC teachers feel trapped by the Bible on the topic of the "light" talked about in the opening of the Genesis story.

They see God's word talking about "Let there be light" but they dont see God make any source for that light???...so the YEC teachers race to invent ways for the light to be in the story....they call it a "source-less " light...

Or they say "God was the source".... :)

Or they come up with other means to have a light around without any listed source.



I on the other hand, have a way to interpret the Genesis story that does not require me to invent a unheard of "source-less light"

How do I interpret the Genesis story that does not require inventing things like the YEC teachers do?.....I just read the story and stick close to it!


Thats all you have to do?....yes, that is all we have to do to learn where the light came forth from.


No need to invent a "source-less light?.......no,we dont need to invent silly things like that!






I will go on and tell you how and where the "light" came from in Genesis in the next post, so stay tuned!

[MichaellS]

Over and over I ask you guys for any Bible verse connected to the topic of Origins

------------------------------------------------------

If you actually got a verse that deal with the topic of Origins /genesis/evolution then Im interested


I’m interested in knowing which of these two do you want to include in this request for a verse?

“any”

Or

“/genesis/”


I invite people to put my ideas to the test and to open their Bible and see if what im saying is found in the Bible?
If you’re talking about ONLY using Genesis, I’m not interested in opening up my Bible to the error of imagination.

Can’t you see it’s wrong to dis all the related scriptures over the falsehood of evolution?

[MichaellS]

Over and over I ask you guys

to ***ume the iden***y of a moron and drink the spiritual Kool-Aid that is in abundance.

How?

By not studying the Bible.

By not ***ociating all text to all text.

By living up to a dreamer's dream, would be wonderful to fulfill the life of a moron on earth.

[alanmolstad]

I’m interested in knowing which of these two do you want to include in this request for a verse?

“any”

Or

“/genesis/”



Was there some part of my post that seemed hard to understand?

"Over and over I ask you guys for any Bible verse connected to the topic of Origins"

add to this the following quote - "I use the story of the Genesis creation to back up my views, I quote the book of Genesis a lot....I also quote other partsof the Bible that are directly connected to the creation story of Genesis(*** 38 for example)....I have always asked everyone to look at the things I say are taught, check out the verses I list, and decide for yourself if what Im saying actually is writen in the verse I used?"


All I ask is that you treat my teaching the same way the Jews treated Paul's teaching, and what they did with Paul is to open their Bible's and looked to see if what Paul was saying was in the Scriptures was there as he claimed?


An example of what I ask of my reader is this --- "I say that the first thing listed in the Bible that God created in the beginning was "The Heavens"

Is this true or not?"



and on another note:
You know, while I never actually care if anyone believes what im saying, BUT......BUT..... I do actually care that I write in a style that is easy to read.

I try to write my posts so that any person , regardless of their history with the church, will be able to read what Im saying and grasp what Im talking about.

[MichaellS]

There you go again leaving off my point. Repeat after me, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S

WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD, ALL of GOD’S WORD.

Let’s make this clear as clear can possibly get, and I think I speak for the others on this single point,

The only misunderstanding here not being addressed is this,

Why Alan doesn’t include all related scripture upon this subject!?!?

To date, when we ask you this question over and over and over and, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,!

You still persist to return the same old line “ask me anything about evolution in Genesis”. You never

want to contemplate all the rest of related scripture that expresses God’s will. Nope, not from Alan,

aint gonna happen.

That’s it, nothing more. Alan doesn’t want God’s will expressed on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-------------------------------

We say all of God’s word, ,


But you say “No”, you don’t want all of God’s word.

We say but there is indeed other verses that apply to dismiss the notion of evolution, ,


But you say “No”, you don’t want other verses that apply.

We say there is reasoning in many books of the Bible that deal with topic of evolution, ,


But you say “No”, you don’t want other books of the Bible.

We say it is God’s will that speaks to us on this topic from those books, ,


But you say “No”, you don’t want to hear God’s will.

-------------------------------

Here, let me help you out of that pressure this returns you to, wait, wait, , ,


“I don’t understand your wording here.”

Isn’t that what you would say? “I don’t understand”

You don’t understand when confronted with the idea that God Himself might have something contrary to say?

--------------------------------

What did they used to call this? “Cop-out”, wasn’t it? That’s what they used to call someone wanting to avoid something un-wanted.

But that’s it isn’t it?

You want to say “I DON”T UNDERSTAND” when all someone says is it is wrong in black and white.

Yep, that’s our Alan when dealing with correction from God’s will, ,

At this point, you can now spot it a mile off no matter how many or how accurate the corrections in God’s word concerning evolution there are, , Alan’s rude cookie-cutter response will always be the same, ,


“I don’t understand”

And


“I teach from Genesis”

------------------------------

When he says,


"if you got a question from Genesis I’m interested”, ,

Translation from his actions of that comes down to “I'm not interested in God’s will”!

This – is – what – I – mean – by – Alan – being – a – false – teacher – and – troublemaker.

My logic stands.

There you go Alan, all set for your only Genesis response, , , ,

[alanmolstad]

I seek any questions you might have on anything I have said, or on any questions about any verse of the Bible I have used, or anything I have taught on the topic of the origins of life on the earth according to the bible.

I have quoted many verses in Genesis that is true, but also other parts of the bible that deal with the same time in earth's history as talked about in the Genesis creation story.

If you have a question about ANY of these things?...just ask.


If you dont?...then that's great and so I shall continue with talking about some of the things I wanted to get to now that deal with the teachings of YEC as compared to what the Bible teaches.






Oh and just one clarification:
When I say that "I don't understand " the way you write, its because (unlike your last post ,that was actually not hard to understand at all by the way) I dont understand the way you write.

It's your writing style....

The style you write within most of the time is not something I can follow at all.

And, Im not the only person to speak about this...
For I have seen a few other people report the same thing about not being able to follow your posts due to your writing style.

Kinda like reading a bunch of random words strung together with no common idea behind them, no concept to tie them into a sentence.


However,I do note that you dont write within that style all the time, and that may mean to us that its a choice you make...and that you are not trapped within this choice all the time.

[alanmolstad]

I will go on and tell you how and where the "light" came from in Genesis in the next post, so stay tuned!

The source for all the "light" talked about in Genesis is not an unknown source.

Its not a magic source.

Its not a invented idea that you had to read about in a YEC textbook or on a YEC website.

The source for all the Genesis lights is listed at Genesis 1:1 where is tells us that the very first thing God's word says that "In the beginning God created the Heavens..."


In the Bible the term "Heavens" can mean in context a few different things.
But of these different things is the idea that the word "Heavens"is talking about all the stars in the night sky.

Now the sun being also a star,is covered within this term "heavens"and so what we are to learn from the Genesis 1:1 verse is that God created stars like our sun right at the start of his creative work.

So Genesis 1:1 is telling us that God made the sun....as well as all the other suns/stars and all the other stuff up there in the sky.


So this means that when we get to the events talked about on the 4th day, and we read about the "greater light" we do sowith the understanding that we already have the sun created.

Therefore the 4th day is talking about the "light" of the sun....just as you would expect when you read the text and dont add anything toit.


The 4th day is talking about seeing the "greater light"of the sun....this is what changed!

The greater light was now seen on the earth.



Ther *** 38 verse tells us that the reason the earth was in 'darkness" in Genesis was due to thick "clouds" that God had wrapped the earth within.
And the Genesis story at day 4 tell us about what was seen different as such thick clouds thinned away to how the sky appears today!


a simple way to understand the whole story from start to finish...and, with no need to invent a magic light source! :)

[MichaellS]

Again, ,


You never want to contemplate all the rest of related scripture that expresses God’s will. Nope, not from Alan, aint gonna happen.

The most important thing surrounding everything we say. Does Alan take note of it. His actions speak for themselves concerning God's will, , ,

"No".

[jude1:3]

1 Timothy 6:20


O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babbling and Contradictions of what is Falsely Called Knowledge—



Alan will not repent from pushing the demonic heretical lie of evolution.

[alanmolstad]

Jude, any time you got a question, or want to have a conversation about this topic, just let me know...

[alanmolstad]

Again, ,



The most important thing surrounding everything we say. Does Alan take note of it. His actions speak for themselves concerning God's will, , ,

"No".
I think someone is just a bit chicken to face my challenge...


I should build a coop because there are so many of them around here... :)


it must be so frustrating for you guys.... not being able to challenge my views and then only have the lame excuse, "How dare you talk about that" as your only defense.... :)


You guys seem to only want to duck and hide and hope the bad man goes away?

(In my martial arts cl*** we call that the "Turtle Defense")

[MichaellS]

What? Are you insinuating we p***-over God’s will? Have you no defense as charged, false-teacher?

Is that what you, Mr. Clarity who wasted people’s time with hundreds of post wish to introduce – demonism?

There you have it ladies and gentlemen, after scores of post, Alan just couldn’t quite bring himself to admit what was on his heart all this time,

Let the scriptures speak for themselves,


"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matt 7:21)

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt 12:50)

Who would be so foolish to ***ume the ***le of a scriptural pervert, and attempt to lead people astray, saying, whoever can’t convince themselves to rise against God’s will is a “chicken”?

Wrong, we are “brothers”, and wish you would rise out of this godless stupor.

[MichaellS]

What? Are you insinuating we p***-over God’s will? Have you no defense as charged, false-teacher?

Is that what you, Mr. Clarity who wasted people’s time with hundreds of post wish to introduce – demonism?

There you have it ladies and gentlemen, after scores of post, Alan just couldn’t quite bring himself to admit what was on his heart all this time,

Let the scriptures speak for themselves,


"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matt 7:21)

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt 12:50)

Who would be so foolish to ***ume the ***le of a scriptural pervert, and attempt to lead people astray, saying, whoever can’t convince themselves to rise against God’s will is a “chicken”?

Wrong, we are “brothers”, and wish you would rise out of this godless stupor.

[alanmolstad]

Now that I have talked a bit about the "light" of the genesis story, I thought next I might deal with the topic of the "point of view' of the genesis story.

Did you know that the whole creation story is written from one key point of view?

I will be talking about this "Genesis POV" in my next post.....stay tuned!

[MichaellS]

Oooooooh, so that last post bothered you did it? I'll take that as a complement. I appreciate that!! For it wasn’t a light post, but worth considering greatly.

Once more, ,

Are you insinuating we p***-over God’s will?

Let the scriptures speak for themselves,


"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.” (Matt 7:21)

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt 12:50)

Who would be so foolish to ***ume the ***le of a scriptural pervert, and attempt to lead people astray, saying, whoever can’t convince themselves to rise against God’s will is a “chicken”?

Wrong, we are “brothers”, and wish you would rise out of this godless stupor.

[alanmolstad]

I will be talking about this "Genesis POV" in my next post.....stay tuned!



Many times we find that people have the wrong mental point of view when they read the story of Genesis.
They tend to view the story with the point of view of that of an astronaut looking down at the earth from high orbit.....this is incorrect.

many times people look at the Text and try to understand what it being talked about from the view point of watching things happen out in deep space....this also is incorrect.


The correct Point of view for the bible student as he reads the Genesis story is to have an "earthly"point of view.

The writer of the Genesis story wants us to take the point of view of someone who is on the earth watching the events happen in the story.

We find this taught in the story at Genesis 1 verse 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

With the introduction in the story of the "Spirit of God"we find what is to be our Point of view as we read the rest of the story.

The Point of view of this Spirit of God is one where he is "hovering"just over the surface of the waters.


Why does it say our Point of view is to be "hovering"....the answer is that the Spirit of God is not said to be "swimming"...LOL


So this now is to be our point of view as we read the creation story, we are to take the mind-set of someone who is just "hovering"over the water.

From this mental image we carry with us as we read the story we now understand how the writer wants us to see how things are going on.

For we are not therefore an astronaut looking down at the earth, but rather we are just hovering over the surface of the water, looking up at the sky...down at the water,and over to the land.

This also helps us understand when the writer talks about "lights"in the sky , both on the first Day as well as on the events talked about happening on the 4th day.

For we now can understand that these events dealing with the change in the "lights" are told to us from the point of view of someone hovering on the surface of the water looking up at the sky.
Thats why the light is said to be "greater" and "lessor"on the 4th day, for they are terms that talk about the "AMOUNT" of light we are able to see from our point of view of looking up at the sky as we hover over the water.

[jude1:3]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/gandalfyoda/Tortz_zpsqtekamss.jpg

[MichaellS]

Thanks Jude1:3, as you said in post #196, the thread now suffers from,


“pushing the demonic heretical lie of evolution.”

This is what happens when Christian moderators are MIA. The whole site suffers. They want to try to mix the reputation of Christianity, and a spiritually bankrupt condition. All this tells us is the site is agenda driven, complicit in proselytizing into the lie as many souls as possible. But it won’t work, the Spirit of God can still lead the sheep to safety. Since WMF does not invest in common search results, those growing numbers you see are not friendly inquiries, with the current state of control, they in all likelihood may even be bogus representative visits.

The reason why those who wish this abuse upon the young doesn’t matter in my mind, that is on how far that can go; just as they imprisoned the Apostle, said in response, “the word of God is not bound”. So it is here, they cannot remove truth. The heart of the beast wishes anguish on God’s people for having the audacity to align with the “will of God”. And the spirit of the dreamer can try to overcome truth with a mul***ude of a dreamer’s speech, but, ,


“When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.” (Proverbs 10:19)

But we know that one who sets out to exert effort, ,


“He that glories, let him glory in the Lord.” (I Cor 1:31)

God bless every last child of God who knows a deceiver when he sees one, caught red-handed denying the will of God, and turning the Holy word of God into the mythological "story" (II Timothy 4:4).

[alanmolstad]

So now that we have went over separately each of the items talked about in the opening of the Genesis story,lets now look at how this all fits together!

First here is the start of the story with the explanations we have learned so far.



" In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"

"In the beginning" = Before all things, before God created anything else. This is talking about the very moment of the start of Creation....the Big bang of science.

"God created " = God is alone , there is no other cause for the universe.He and he alone is the creator....his work here is creation"

"the Heavens" = This word we have learned is talking about all the stars like our own sun.Listed first means that the sun is now created in the story. "Heavens"is the correct word to talk about not only the stars like our own sun, but all the other worlds and gas giants,and Black holes, and all the clouds of dust and all the things we dont even have names for yet! "Heavens" by the way is the ONLY word the writer of the genesis story could have used to talk about all such things out there in the darkness of the night sky.


"and the Earth" = This shows us that we are talking about the creation of the stars because they are listed in contrast here with the "Earth"
The listing here of "the Earth"now tells us that this story will be centered on the "Earth's" story .

[alanmolstad]

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

"And the earth was" = The story of the earth's creation continues.

The use of the Hebrew word of "was" is interesting as it is a word that means "was/became"in the Hebrew....
So the correct way to understand this sentence is to say that the "earth was/became..."

It sorta like starting a story with the words, "I was leading the race at that point..." as the use of the word "was" in that sentence has this same context of being "was/became" as the context tells you that I did not start out the race with a lead, but that I "became" in first place by the time the story opens.


"without form" = This wording is talking about not being able to see the form of the earth right now.
The earth is still very real at this point.
Its a solid planet.
But the earth's form is not seen.
This is talking about the same type of thing we might experience if we were near a road on a foggy night and heard a truck approaching. We would know that the truck is real, we would know that its getting closer, but due to the foggy-darkness we cant see its form yet.


and void = the word "void" is simply talking about a world without any people yet.

and darkness From *** 38 we saw that the only reason for this darkness was due to the very thick clouds that God had wrapped the early earth under.

was upon the face of the deep = The words "the deep" can only be talking about a great body of water like a sea....

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters= This gives the reader the correct point of view to take in their minds as they read of the events talked about. We are to take the mental POV of someone "hovering"just over the dark seas.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Thanks Jude1:3, as you said in post #196, the thread now suffers from,



This is what happens when Christian moderators are MIA. The whole site suffers.

I can testify to you that the "moderators" are not "MIA"...LOL

What i think is the real situation is this:
This Walter Martin message forum invites all types of people to come here and post their comments.
There are no rules as to the type of religion a guest might support.
The only rules that are set up for the guests to follow are simply to help keep order and allow this to be a friendly place to spend time.


and....

If you spend any time here reading the newer updated posts you will see that this site is visited by many,many Mormons.

Every day there is a posting by a Mormon in support of Mormon teachings.

The Mormons who visit this site are seen openly posting comments that totally support Mormonism and undercut the traditional christian faith.



and yet....

And yet I dont see anyone asking the moderators to step in an ban all the Mormons and clear their posts just because some Christians disagree with them!

I notice that people dont go on and on about a moderator being "MIA" just because some Mormon guest claims that God the father has a human body.

And.....I think I know why.

I think the reason is that many Christians believe the Mormons are so ****py at sharing their views, and so easy to dismiss with the bible, that they dont feel the need to try to have a Mormon's post cleared.

Many Christian people dont feel threatened by the Mormons.

many Christians feel very confidant when they deal with a Mormon because they believe they can win that debate.

They believe God and the bible are on their side.



But when I speak some Christians dont seem to have that same type of confidence!

Notice when Alan posts about Genesis these same Christians suddenly have a cow?
I think I know why that is too...

I think it's because while such Christians believe the Mormons are **** as far as knowing how to share their faith, they yet hate the fact that Alan actually knows how to share his teachings very effectively.

Such Christians dont dare take me on with their Bible , because they can see clearly that I know the Bible better than they do,and have shown this over and over.

Thus, their only option is to try to get/force me to stop teaching .

It's the only path they see to getting out of this situation.
Getting into a debate with me has only shown that the YEC Christians cant argue their point as strongly as I can support mine.


Thats the real reason such weak Christians never ask me questions about Genesis.

All they can do rather is just go off on the old "We should not even talk about this topic" thingy...

They dont think they can defend their views as strongly as I can defend mine, so it seems to me they always want to try to get the topic cleared.



Well.......

Topics come and go over time...
Im sure this topic will drop off the radar soon enough , and will be replaced by one that looks a lot like it....:)

But what Im saying, and what im teaching, and what I have shown true in the Bible, will remain .
And regardless of the YEC teachers's views, I will continue to ask people to put away their false ideas about what YEC teachers and websites all say Genesis is about, and instead open their Bible for themselves and just read!!!!!!


That is all I have ever done!!!

I ask people "What does the Bible say?"
I point out what the text says.... ..
I ask people what words appear in the text?

I dont have to tell anyone what to think it means.

All I do is show people what the text actually says,and that is enough to convince them that YEC is a lie.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Thanks Jude1:3, as you said in post #196, the thread now suffers from,



This is what happens when Christian moderators are MIA. The whole site suffers.

I can testify to you that the "moderators" are not "MIA"...LOL

What i think is the real situation is this:
This Walter Martin message forum invites all types of people to come here and post their comments.
There are no rules as to the type of religion a guest might support.
The only rules that are set up for the guests to follow are simply to help keep order and allow this to be a friendly place to spend time.


and....

If you spend any time here reading the newer updated posts you will see that this site is visited by many,many Mormons.

Every day there is a posting by a Mormon in support of Mormon teachings.

The Mormons who visit this site are seen openly posting comments that totally support Mormonism and undercut the traditional christian faith.



and yet....

And yet I dont see anyone asking the moderators to step in an ban all the Mormons and clear their posts just because some Christians disagree with them!

I notice that people dont go on and on about a moderator being "MIA" just because some Mormon guest claims that God the father has a human body.

And.....I think I know why.

I think the reason is that many Christians believe the Mormons are so ****py at sharing their views, and so easy to dismiss with the bible, that they dont feel the need to try to have a Mormon's post cleared.

Many Christian people dont feel threatened by the Mormons.

many Christians feel very confidant when they deal with a Mormon because they believe they can win that debate.

They believe God and the bible are on their side.



But when I speak some Christians dont seem to have that same type of confidence!

Notice when Alan posts about Genesis these same Christians suddenly have a cow?
I think I know why that is too...

I think it's because while such Christians believe the Mormons are **** as far as knowing how to share their faith, they yet hate the fact that Alan actually knows how to share his teachings very effectively.

Such Christians dont dare take me on with their Bible , because they can see clearly that I know the Bible better than they do,and have shown this over and over.

Thus, their only option is to try to get/force me to stop teaching .

It's the only path they see to getting out of this situation.
Getting into a debate with me has only shown that the YEC Christians cant argue their point as strongly as I can support mine.


Thats the real reason such weak Christians never ask me questions about Genesis.

All they can do rather is just go off on the old "We should not even talk about this topic" thingy...

They dont think they can defend their views as strongly as I can defend mine, so it seems to me they always want to try to get the topic cleared.



Well.......

Topics come and go over time...
Im sure this topic will drop off the radar soon enough , and will be replaced by one that looks a lot like it....:)

But what Im saying, and what im teaching, and what I have shown true in the Bible, will remain .
And regardless of the YEC teachers's views, I will continue to ask people to put away their false ideas about what YEC teachers and websites all say Genesis is about, and instead open their Bible for themselves and just read!!!!!!


That is all I have ever done!!!

I ask people "What does the Bible say?"
I point out what the text says.... ..
I ask people what words appear in the text?

I dont have to tell anyone what to think it means.

All I do is show people what the text actually says,and that is enough to convince them that YEC is a lie.

[disciple]

Alan,

You continually and I believe purposely miss the point of these discussions. It is not really about the
age of the earth, whether it is six thousand or six billion years old, it is about evolution. It is about
the fact that you support the idea that man was not created as the bible clearly states but that man
evolved from lower forms of life. You continually talk about what "you teach", are you a qualified teacher?
Have you a degree, have you gone to a seminary, do you have training in theology or in the field of
Biblical hermeneutics? There might be some people who follow these discussions and like what you say,
you are leading people like that astray. You have no proof of evolution just a pitiful theory, yet you
lead people to believe that it walks "hand in hand" with God's Holy word. We are all en***led to our
opinions but we also have a duty to warn people against false teachers and also to warn those who
are doing the false teaching.

[alanmolstad]

I dont teach evolution...

What do I quote to support my views?.....the Bible.

When I talk about how God created life on the earth,what book to I quote?.....the bible.

When I tell people to open a book to read for themselves what it says god did, what book am I referring to?....the Bible.


When I say that God's word supports my views, wherein that word found?...in the bible.



As foryour question referring to my ability to teach the bible to students?....if you want to prove me wrong then just take anything I have said and show me in the Bible that "It does not say that in the bible"!!!



But as you cant do that because I always quote the bible correctly, then the best you can do i guess is what?......paint me as a unbeliever?....perhaps try to drag me into a debate over evolution again?




good luck with that.... :)

[disciple]

I dont teach evolution...

What do I quote to support my views?.....the Bible.

When I talk about how God created life on the earth,what book to I quote?.....the bible.

When I tell people to open a book to read for themselves what it says god did, what book am I referring to?....the Bible.


When I say that God's word supports my views, wherein that word found?...in the bible.



As foryour question referring to my ability to teach the bible to students?....if you want to prove me wrong then just take anything I have said and show me in the Bible that "It does not say that in the bible"!!!



But as you cant do that because I always quote the bible correctly, then the best you can do i guess is what?......paint me as a unbeliever?....perhaps try to drag me into a debate over evolution again?




good luck with that.... :)


All right Alan, for what seems like the 100th time, open the Bible and show us where evolution (a theory) walks
"hand in hand" (your own words) with the bible. Quote the bible correctly anywhere where it even hints that man evolved from
lower life forms. Don't change the subject and talk about light or dust, show us how evolution walks hand in hand with the
truth of the Bible. And by the way, I don't think you are an unbeliever I just think you are blinded by science.

[alanmolstad]

Now some may ask..."How can Evolution be said to agree in any way with Genesis?"

Here is my answer- first...what is the common understanding we can both agree on about what Evolution teaches?

I think we can understand without disagreement that evolution teaches that life as we know it now can be traced back to earlier forms...

correct?

You agree with that?

Im not asking you to agree with evolution, just agree with me as to what it teaches us...


so as we go back in time according to evolution we will be tracing life back to early and earlier forms of life...
This continues until you get to the final source of all life on this world, that being this earth itself.



this actually is one of the most fun things about evolution that i like the most...the fact that according to evolution,Life is from this earth...
What this means is that God's creation is a creation of life....and this leads me to the hope that life is not just a natural result of this one earth,,but that life is found on many such worlds.

In fact,I hope that the stars we see in the night say are not just pin-points of glowing gas, but actually God has planted a "garden"in the night sky....
and that life has evolved not just in a few spots, but darn near everywhere!

So that more or less is what evolution means to me...

Its a natural force...

its like the rain or the sun's light...

its a thing God has created to support life,for God is a God of the living not the dead.


Now,,,,back to my answer to you...

Now that we have decided that according to the teachings of evolution all life is a part of this earth itself, and that the final source for life is this very same earth...lets compare this tothe source of life as taught in the Bible!!!!!!




So where are humans from according to the bible?

the answer is found at Genesis 3:19
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;


so here we see that the source of human life is said to be"the ground"
That is where we are "taken" from.

So according to Genesis humans are from the earth...and as we already saw that according to evolution humans are also from this earth itself.



Thus, although genesis does not actually "teach"evolution, it yet is in full agreement as to this important point as to the "source"of all life on this earth.


So we can say that the two works say very different things in very different ways,let are able to join hands when they get the the very same starting point of all life on this good earth!

[alanmolstad]

so as we have decided, Evolution is well known to teach that life is a natural part of this earth,,and that all life, both animal and human, have as their final source of this earth...that the very building blocks of the very earliest form of life are of this earth itself.

and in the post above we learned that humans are also from this earth,, and that the ground of this earth is our source of life...

We now should look at what the bible says is the animals source?...where are all the animals from?


Genesis 2:19-
"So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air..."

thus once again we confirm the agreement with evolution as to the final source of life for all the animals..

This also means that just as in evolution we learn that animals and humans share the very same source, so too this is the teaching of the Bible....Humans and all the animals share a common source.

[jude1:3]

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/files/2014/02/wpid-Photo-Feb-2-2014-356-PM.jpg

[jude1:3]

All right Alan, for what seems like the 100th time, open the Bible and show us where evolution (a theory) walks
"hand in hand" (your own words) with the bible. Quote the bible correctly anywhere where it even hints that man evolved from
lower life forms. Don't change the subject and talk about light or dust, show us how evolution walks hand in hand with the
truth of the Bible. And by the way, I don't think you are an unbeliever I just think you are blinded by science.



Surely Alan will reply directly to your post. Let's just keep waiting :

http://www.relatably.com/m/img/skeleton-waiting-meme-computer/tumblr_inline_nth2fbNdv21sjs49f_400.jpg

[alanmolstad]

Surely Alan will reply directly to your post. Let's just keep waiting :

http://www.relatably.com/m/img/skeleton-waiting-meme-computer/tumblr_inline_nth2fbNdv21sjs49f_400.jpg

see post #213 and #214 above for my response.

if there is any part of my response you want to talk about, just let me know.

Right now I think it answers the question I was asked.

[alanmolstad]

MichaellS seems to have dropped out of this?

[MichaellS]

MichaellS seems to have dropped out of this?

Hello Alan, everyone!

Oh there has been a falling away alright. Anytime you want to drag up one of those posts that Jude 1:3, Disciple or I went down the trail of travail for you over, yet dealt us stern refusal, just pick out anyone of them and anyone of us would be happy to correspond as though it were yesterday.

The choice is yours, stay with the old status quo, or choose life.


“, , choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, ,” (Joshua 24:15)

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, ,” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

[alanmolstad]

If I ever teach anything you don't think is written in the bible just ask me to provide a quote

[MichaellS]

Yes, I would like you to show me in the Bible the justification for refusal of communication, such a this last post. We post - you intercept - and supply a foreign, totally unrelated entry.

Show or quote for me the justification for refusal of communication??

That would be most interesting.

But is Jude1:3 right?

Will you again respond with more rhetorical drivel?

And that is what this thread will always be according to Alan, nonsense, because you don't communicate.

See ya around!

[alanmolstad]

If I have taught anything about what a genesis says that you think is not found in the text just ask me where the verse is and I will show you.

Also if there is any of my teachings you don't think are supported by the genesis text just ask and I will quote you the verse.

[alanmolstad]

Also if there is any of my teachings you don't think are supported by the genesis text just ask and I will quote you the verse.

Now let me take a moment to talk about what I teach the Text in the Bible supports.

I teach that the first thing the Bible lists that god created was the stars and all the other stuff out there in space, INCLUDING our own sun.

i teach that the Bible supports the idea that the word "day" has many different meanings depending on the context of how the word is used.
It can be talking about a limited amount of time, or a very unlimited amount of time...and the tricky part of that is that sometimes it cane be pointing to both understandings at the same time.

I teach that human are a part of this earth that has come to life.

I teach that humans share a common starting point with all other animals like the great apes,,,and that starting point is listed in the bible as being this earth itself.

I teach that the bible has very clear endings to 6 of the 7 days of the creation week....but that there is no ending listed for the 7th day.

I teach that there is no listed ending to the 7th day at any point that matches what is written about the other 6 days...not in the story of Genesis, not in the whole book of Genesis, notin the whole Old testament, nor at any point in the whole Bible!

I teach that the earth was created as a dead and DRY world.

I teach that the reason the earth is said to be in darkness was because God wrapped the early earth in a thick wrapping of dark clouds.

I teach that the clouds are from the mist that came later from underground.

I teach that this mist was able to cover the whole surface of the earth with water, and that this is where the water came from that is talked about in Genesis 1 as "the deep".

I teach that the whole story of Genesis and the creation is told from the point of view of someone just hovering over the surface of the waters.

I teach that the sun is created on the first day.

I teach that the "light" talked about in Genesis is, both the light talked about on Day 1,,,and the lights talked about on the 4th day, are all the same light, and that it has a single source the sun, that was created on the first day.

I teach that the 'lights' talked about on the 4thday are only the description of the "Amounts" of light seen from the perspective of someone hovering over the surface of the seas.

I teach that the Bible does not actually say that the stars were 'made"on the 4th day, but that this is an addition to the text of the Bible that was inserted later to agree with young earth creationism....

I teach that if you remove the un-needed and added wording to the story of the 4th day and read it as the writer intended,then all you see fits nicely with the story of what the "lesser light" rules over (ie the night and the stars)

[disciple]

Now let me take a moment to talk about what I teach the Text in the Bible supports.

I teach that the first thing the Bible lists that god created was the stars and all the other stuff out there in space, INCLUDING our own sun.

i teach that the Bible supports the idea that the word "day" has many different meanings depending on the context of how the word is used.
It can be talking about a limited amount of time, or a very unlimited amount of time...and the tricky part of that is that sometimes it cane be pointing to both understandings at the same time.

I teach that human are a part of this earth that has come to life.

I teach that humans share a common starting point with all other animals like the great apes,,,and that starting point is listed in the bible as being this earth itself.

I teach that the bible has very clear endings to 6 of the 7 days of the creation week....but that there is no ending listed for the 7th day.

I teach that there is no listed ending to the 7th day at any point that matches what is written about the other 6 days...not in the story of Genesis, not in the whole book of Genesis, notin the whole Old testament, nor at any point in the whole Bible!

I teach that the earth was created as a dead and DRY world.

I teach that the reason the earth is said to be in darkness was because God wrapped the early earth in a thick wrapping of dark clouds.

I teach that the clouds are from the mist that came later from underground.

I teach that this mist was able to cover the whole surface of the earth with water, and that this is where the water came from that is talked about in Genesis 1 as "the deep".

I teach that the whole story of Genesis and the creation is told from the point of view of someone just hovering over the surface of the waters.

I teach that the sun is created on the first day.

I teach that the "light" talked about in Genesis is, both the light talked about on Day 1,,,and the lights talked about on the 4th day, are all the same light, and that it has a single source the sun, that was created on the first day.

I teach that the 'lights' talked about on the 4thday are only the description of the "Amounts" of light seen from the perspective of someone hovering over the surface of the seas.

I teach that the Bible does not actually say that the stars were 'made"on the 4th day, but that this is an addition to the text of the Bible that was inserted later to agree with young earth creationism....

I teach that if you remove the un-needed and added wording to the story of the 4th day and read it as the writer intended,then all you see fits nicely with the story of what the "lesser light" rules over (ie the night and the stars)


Alan, who are you teaching? No one agrees with you.

[Christian]

Revelation 22:15

Rev 22:15
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
NKJV

And this has to do with evolution, EXACTLY HOW? Are you trying to claim evolution is what John intended when he wrote it?

HOW SAD is your eisegesis?

[jude1:3]

Rev 22:15
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
NKJV

And this has to do with evolution, EXACTLY HOW? Are you trying to claim evolution is what John intended when he wrote it?

HOW SAD is your eisegesis?





Evolution is A Lie. Those who promote it practice The Lie.

Why do You Insult Other Christians ?

[alanmolstad]

Alan, .... No one agrees with you.

I don't care...

[alanmolstad]

Now let me take a moment to talk about what I teach the Text in the Bible supports.

I teach that the first thing the Bible lists that god created was the stars and all the other stuff out there in space, INCLUDING our own sun.

i

if you doubt what Im saying is true?...then just ask me to show you where in the Bible what Im saying is taught.

[MichaellS]

if you doubt what Im saying is true?...then just ask me to show you where in the Bible what Im saying is taught.

I did ask you. Where in the bible is it?

[MichaellS]

I don't care...

Isn’t this the same dead message that a liberal parasite church wants the benefit of, to creep their way in, not sparing the flock?

After Jesus and the Spirit telling us, ,


“with God, all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26)
Yet,

“without faith, it is impossible to please Him” (Hebrews 11:6)

There’s many folks like Alan who have come so far to completely turn everything around for their own detriment.

Today, they’re idea of approaching the Holy Spirit "isn’t likely, and such lack of faith is still pleasing to God”

See what I mean, and I emphasize, complete reversal. How nicely it works hand-in-hand with the above quote.

But Alan didn’t recognize that last comment of mine took and led him away like a child. The temptation to devourer was all Alan was concerned with, though most saw his response coming a mile off, proving what I suspected,; it isn't that you "don't care", it is that you hate the thought of the life of Christ as it is taught.


"Do you think that the scripture says in vain, The spirit that dwells in us lusts to envy?" (James 4:5)

Still don’t understand my words Alan? That’s alright, I have plenty who do. And aren't ever seeking and working to shrug the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

We love Him,

We expect from Him

We wait on, and many of us find Him daily,,,,,,,,,what a comfort He is! Amen!

[alanmolstad]

I did ask you. Where in the bible is it?

It's found at Genesis 1:1 (Hint: that's near the front of your Bible)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

"In the beginning " (Beginning =at the start, before all other things)
"God" (This is the person doing the action)
"created" (this is the action taking place)
"the heavens" ( all the things found in the day/night sky including the sun, the stars, the other worlds , and also the things we don't even know about or have names for yet)
"and the earth" The earth is introduced into the Genesis story here and it now becomes the center of the Writer's story. Genesis is a story about this Earth, and it told from the stand point as we shall see of a person hovering just over the seas on this earth)


So lets put this all together then and go over what is being taught to us.
What the Bible is teaching us is this:

The term "beginning" means the start of something, There is no such thing as something having two beginnings, There is no such thing as "One" being the "second first"...LOL
This fact cant be denied.

That the very first thing the Bible lists as whats God created at the very start of his creation work was the "heavens".
This fact cant be denied.

The word "Heavens" can mean a few things in different situations but among the correct meanings found in the Bible for the term "Heavens" is the concept of all the stars and everything else that is found in the night sky.
This fact cant be denied .

The sun is a star.
This fact cant be denied .

So the Bible is telling us that the very first thing that God created at the beginning of the creation are the stars like our own sun.
This fact cant be denied.



So to conclude,
You have asked where do I get the teaching that god created the stars like our own sun first (in agreement with what Science teaches by the way)?...The answer is "At Genesis 1:1"





next question?

[alanmolstad]

PS.....

and Im kinda sure that when I say "I don't care" it pretty much means that I simply don't care about it.

I don't give a darn....I don't have any feelings one way or the other about it...I'm completely indifferent to it...



It's the same when people insult me, for then too I simply don't care.


and I think you have seen clearly that I'm not in the slightest way distracted by it.

[alanmolstad]

If there are no questions then I would like to deal next with the rest of my teachings as listed on post #223.

I would like to go over each of the listed teachings in more detail

[MichaellS]

It's found at , , ,

next question?

Who's question are you answering?

This (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3952-Evolution-does-not-stand-up-to-biblical-scrutiny&p=170045&viewfull=1#post170045) is the question I still need answered.

As to whomever you intended this for, it is still the same,

Your comment is void from the purpose of the thread.

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]Who's question are you answering?

.....If at any point I teach something about the Genesis creation story that you doubt is supported by the Genesis text, just ask me, "Where does it say that?" and I will by happy to show you.

For I believe all that I teach on this or any other topic is fully supported by the bible.

[MichaellS]

I teach on this or any other topic is fully supported by the bible.

My, how nice that sounds, to bad your "any" isn't what the Bible means when it says "any".

This (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3952-Evolution-does-not-stand-up-to-biblical-scrutiny&p=170045&viewfull=1#post170045) is still the question that remains unanswered on this thread, thereby poisoning the purpose of "Biblical Scrutiny".

So, in review, all I got for my question is evasion. Surprise surprise, who would have guessed?

Gueeze! Surely, someone here recognizes a simple question when they see it?

[alanmolstad]

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]My, how nice that sounds, to bad your "any" .....
Well I cant tell you what i meant....

Any topic that i have taught on in connection with our main topic of Genesis and what is written in Genesis I would be more than happy to go over again with anyone interested...

But Im not at all interested in other diversions*...

And that the trouble is it not?...for I have seen over and over the the YEC teachers/websites/ and books seem to want to go off on tangents rather that confronting what the Bible says.

Oh how the YEC teachers love to get the conversation dragged down into endless debates over evolution and over DNA and over things like micro-this and Macro-that...
But what you notice is that when a guy only wants to talk about what the bible says?...then all you get is pointless attacks and sidetracked.
I saw the same with Ken Ham in person.

If a guy wants to ask a question about what the Bible says was the "First thing listed that god created in the beginning?"...all you get is the answer, "Well that might be what the Bible says, but it means something else"...and then they always go off on a pointless tangent that has nothing to do with Genesis 1:1.
(An example:To ask questions that are not part of the Genesis text but are only based on their own personal views in an aim to side-track the discussion, ie,"Evolution is evil,why do you insult Christians by teaching evil?")

But Im only interested in reading what the Bible says...

Thats why i like to stick to only what is written about the creation in the Bible, and I dont allow myself to get dragged into endless debates over evolution.....

Nor do i allow myself to get dragged into arguments over personal matters best left off the open forum.

If a person whats to know some type of person question, best ask that in a "private message".

So sticking to the main point of our topic on Genesis, I shall now go on to talk about some things people might not have caught when they read the story.

The key to understanding why the earth is said to be in Darkness after the creation of the "heavens" (The sun and stars) we need to just look at *** 38 for our answer.

At *** 38 we see the bible talking about the same point in history that Genesis is dealing with.

At *** 38 we also see the reason why the Earth is said to be in "darkness"in Genesis...

The reason is given as thick clouds that god wrapped the early earth in.



Its that simple....

it was due to thick clouds.














* I totally ignore all smart-mouth junk that gets tossed my way that can only be a gateway to a lot of personal bickering and pointlessness.

Thus when a guy posts to me something like "Alan evolution is evil,why do you insult Christians and teach what is evil?" I just write that poster off as acting like a silly child and continue on without them as if they don't matter.

Because they dont matter, they are not part of my discussion.

I also dont give a darn if some poster whines that "Alan ignores my questions"if I also consider the guy's questions to be nothing but yet another silly sidetrack attempt.

Now about every night I get a lot of Personal Messages from people who drop by this website, see my posts,and want to know more about what Im saying.
I try to answer such questions as best I can,while always sticking close to the text we see before us in Genesis at all times.

I also think its funny,yet disappointingly common to see how some people are so frustrated at not being able to out-debate me on the topic of Genesis, they they write to the Forum MODs in an effort to get them to come to their rescue.

My advice to such people?.....read your Bible more, then maybe you wont feel so helpless all the time

[MichaellS]

“But Im only interested in reading what the Bible says”

“Because they dont matter, they are not part of my discussion.”


Maybe you should have thought about that before walking into a thread bearing the ***le of “Biblical scrutiny”

It’s time to shed childishness and take responsibility man, answer the question directly

A narrow mind might attempting to convince himself he is in the right by staying narrow may think he’s right, , but with the effort you give to shudder God’s word from us proves it is not!


“Now about every night I get a lot of Personal Messages from people who drop by this website, see my posts,and want to know more about what Im saying.”

Then they are right there with you ignoring the will of God brought to everyone from our wording.

The evasion continues.

What about the silence concerning God's will concerning this? Why do you continue to ignore them? Hello? It God's word, not man's as you like to think.

[alanmolstad]

answer the question directly

.......
If anyone has a question about anything I have taught on the Genesis creation story, just ask and I will be happy to return to the issue and address it.


Now building on what I have been teaching on above...today I will talk about the 4th day,and the idea some in the YEC cult believe about it.

many YEC teachers will try to say that god did not make the stars until the 4th day.
This idea goes totally against what science teaches us about the creation of the universe.
The YEC teachings therefore run counter to modern science and this is why many of the best and brightest within the Christian church are being driven out due to the way some YEC teachers will attack such Christians as being "against the Bible" .

Well Im here to set the record straight!

The fact is, the Bible does not teach that God made the stars on the 4th day!

Yes, I know in your Bible it might "say" that, but what you will learn if you dig into this issue is that the idea that God also made the stars on the 4th day was added to the text and does not actually appear in the oldest Hebrew scriptures.>

To check on this, all you have to do is look at the text for the 4th day in a King James Version of the Bible.

The King James make use of little study helps that allow the student to see what words were added to the text...
Some king James will put words in brackets [] or will write the added words in italic

By checking in the King James you will clearly see that the words teaching that God also made the stars on the 4td Day was added.

This is just a cold hard fact....The Bible does not say that God also made the stars on the 4th day at all !

and.....when you remove the added words,the Bible's original sentence at that point reads so much more better.
The text is simply saying at that point that the "lessor light" will rule over the night and the stars also.


This fact cant be denied!

[MichaellS]

This fact cant be denied!

Can a man brag against God's will?

Cherry pick my comment all you want to your own peril.

Alan attempts to throw attention away from God’s will stating that the whole thing is that man has the problem here that keeps getting in the way.

Let’s see now, what could possibly go wrong avoiding God’s will as we presented?

Furthermore, what could possibly be wrong with desperately trying to cover one’s tracks while running away from that presentation?

Now just so it is clear who goes on record for teaching the WHOLE councel of God.


“For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.” (Acts 20:27)

What teaching would poor misguided souls lean to; snippet interpretation, or “all the counsel”?

Now it can correctly be asked in this thread:

If anyone has a question about anything I have taught on the Genesis creation story, just ask and I will be happy to return to the issue and address it.

Not some snippet-mister who refuses to defend the position from, lookout – “BIBLICAL SCRUTINY”.

He loves to run a piece with you till it gets too hot in the kitchen, then its “head for tall gr***, I can’t take it anymore”, WAAAAAAAAAH!

Does anyone not love the word of God anymore? Does not anyone believe in it’s IITimothy 3:16 profitability anymore?

What happened to the friendlier aids of the lexicon, cross-reference and concordance? Do we now pick and choose what p***ages permit open exposure to other p***ages. That sir is the true “hand-in-hand, when you find God spoke through holy men of God by the Holy Spirit.

No proper student of Bible study even think of contravening II Peter 1:20 for any portion of scripture. Alan sees no problem there.

Stubbornness shows up upon the doorstep of opportunity to lure away from all such sound teaching tools. Disgusting, don’t you think, to stray from the ***ertion pointed out from God’s word?

Yeah yeah, it’s back to your unsubstantiated Genesis perversion. Oh sorry, formula to you, perversion to those you upset.

Gonna fix that right up again with your Genesis trumpet? Ain’t nobody gonna cause Alan to lose composure over other reason or scripture.

Com’n Alan, you’re the epitome of Bible-soundness, what is the danger of mis-handling the scriptures? Better yet, tell us, what are the dangers of false teaching?

Can you even say these words that you refuse. Say them one at a time, ,


False Teaching

Private Interpretation

God’s Will

Each one of those are directly related to each other. Now it’s plain you want to maintain you are showing God’s will in Genesis and no more. But we know why you don’t say that, because you can’t explain why Genesis ONLY. Because that just isn’t how it works, which everyone is aware.

So to make it easy on you since you are so easily upset that I intrude with the additionals, ,

Why Genesis only?

[alanmolstad]

you know....if you take away all the personal stuff above...not much is left.



I'm just saying....

[MichaellS]

not much is left. I'm just saying....

Would you mind telling me something new concerning your view of God's will?

[MichaellS]

It’s called God’s will.

Learn it,

Love it,

Live it.

Aka, Christianity.

[MichaellS]

Go ahead, say it, it won't hurt!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Would you mind telling me something new concerning your view of God's will?

as it is connected to the creation story as recorded in Genesis?


ok.....Ummm....






I do believe that the writer of the Genesis account has clearly made a very big deal about the way he wrote such clear and easy to find endings to the first 6 days of the creation week...and that fact points us to the other clear intention we see in the writer's mind as to this lack of any ending in the Genesis story to the 7th day!

I believe this was no accident!
...I dont believe that this lack of any ending to the 7th day in any part of the whole bible is an accident!...
I believe it is only due to the direct inspiration of the Lord (His "will").


Now to many Bible students this fact is unknown to them,,,and thus our duty to stand up and teach the next generation what the Bible says so that truth can be p***ed on to them...


If you had a verse in Genesis that you wanted me to look at?...or if there is anything I have taught on concerning genesis?...then I can check out that verse or that post

[alanmolstad]

Genesis 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


This is where the earth's water came from that is talked about at the start of the Genesis story .....

This also is why I believe that the earth was created as a dead and DRY world ...much as science also teaches...

[MichaellS]

If you had a verse in Genesis that you wanted me to look at?...or if there is anything I have taught on concerning genesis?...then I can check out that verse or that post

You're forgetting something. So can Jude1:3 and Disciple.

But when someone wishes to prop themselves against others, why not just come out and say it - you don't interest yourself with other Christians?

[alanmolstad]

You're forgetting something. So can Jude1:3 and Disciple.

But when someone wishes to prop themselves against others, why not just come out and say it - you don't interest yourself with other Christians?

Like I said....I write on this topic only because it is of interest to me...

I like to dig deeper into what I believe because in many cases I have yet to take the time to put down in writing what I believe,and it really helps a person to be able to organize heartfelt feelings in such a manner that allows them to be recorded in written form.

But, as to some guests to this site and my views of them?......lets just say that Im always open to review anything I have written here to them, but I sometimes feel like I'm the only adult in the room at times....

[MichaellS]

I like to dig deeper into what I believe because in many cases I have yet to take the time to put down in writing what I believe,

I sometimes feel like I'm the only adult in the room at times....

I got news, rudeness is no sign of maturity.

Neither is running away from God’s will a sign of depth.

[MichaellS]

Can’t quite force the truth out can you, but tell me it isn’t so, ,

You are concerned for God’s will shown by biblical scrutiny.