There are no Obedient LDS

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I have point blank asked numerous LDS about their perfection. Only one has claimed it (and we know he is mistaken). The rest have said stuff like, "I am trying." "Grace is helping me."

The Bible shows your falleness. The BOM and D & C show your hopelessness....

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

For the wages of sin is death.

The heart is deceitful beyond all else, who can know it.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



Spencer Kimball says that "Trying [to be sinless] is not sufficient."


1.) 2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” [Are you honestly doing all that you can do? Of course not.]

2.) ALMA 5:27-31: “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!”

3.) MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” [Notice the If and Then statement?]

4.) 1 NEPHI 3:7: “…for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”

5.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

6.) ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”

7.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”

8.) ALMA 34:32: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.”

9.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” [Have you forsaken all of your sins? Of course not.]

10.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

11.) ALMA 34:33-35: “And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

12.) ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” [You are lost and going to Hell, not the second or first level of heaven]

[BigJulie]

I have point blank asked numerous LDS about their perfection. Only one has claimed it (and we know he is mistaken). The rest have said stuff like, "I am trying." "Grace is helping me."

The Bible shows your falleness. The BOM and D & C show your hopelessness....

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

For the wages of sin is death.

The heart is deceitful beyond all else, who can know it.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



Spencer Kimball says that "Trying [to be sinless] is not sufficient."


1.) 2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” [Are you honestly doing all that you can do? Of course not.]

2.) ALMA 5:27-31: “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!”

3.) MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” [Notice the If and Then statement?]

4.) 1 NEPHI 3:7: “…for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”

5.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

6.) ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”

7.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”

8.) ALMA 34:32: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.”

9.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” [Have you forsaken all of your sins? Of course not.]

10.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

11.) ALMA 34:33-35: “And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

12.) ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” [You are lost and going to Hell, not the second or first level of heaven]

I think this scripture says it best--in the part you did not bold "“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

It's a simple formula--turn your life over to Christ, love God with all of your might, mind and strength--and then by His Grace, you will be perfected.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

It's a simple formula--turn your life over to Christ, love God with all of your might, mind and strength--and then by His Grace, you will be perfected.

So grace is based upon you turning yourself over to Christ and loving God with all of your might, mind and strength? You have a strange definition for grace.
Grace is unmerited favor. That means God gives it to you without you having to earn it. Nor do you deserve it when you get it.

You also fail because you are not capable of loving God with all of your might, mind and strength. There is always something holding you back.

[alanmolstad]

yoda....You are correct in pointing out the serious error in the statement by Julie, when we read her words "and then by His Grace, you will be perfected"

This is totally counter to the Bible's teachings, and seems to make God a reactionary person.

[BigJulie]

So grace is based upon you turning yourself over to Christ and loving God with all of your might, mind and strength? You have a strange definition for grace.
Grace is unmerited favor. That means God gives it to you without you having to earn it. Nor do you deserve it when you get it.

You also fail because you are not capable of loving God with all of your might, mind and strength. There is always something holding you back.

(I would ask you to stop reading what with your prejudice eyes, but read what I say---was there anything about me earning anything, or was there a statement of what God will do for those who love him?)

When we turn ourselves over to Christ we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost who helps us do this. There is no earning as we are not capable of ourselves. That is the point of the scripture. But God does expect us to fully turn ourselves over to his will and to love him fully.

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Is this a commandment you believe is no longer in effect?)

So, you say we are not capable of loving God with all of our might, mind and strength? What about ***? Or Moses? Or Peter? or Paul? Did these men turn their lives fully over to Christ--and through the power of the Holy Ghost, were they perfected in him by his grace?

God gives two types of grace. The first is to everyone as everyone who dies will be resurrected.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Hence--all of us die, and all of as are made alive again through Christ.

The second type of grace is the grace unto perfection. This he gives to those who love him.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[BigJulie]

yoda....You are correct in pointing out the serious error in the statement by Julie, when we read her words "and then by His Grace, you will be perfected"

This is totally counter to the Bible's teachings, and seems to make God a reactionary person.

No, just a God who does what He states he is going to do and means what He says.

[MickeyS]

So grace is based upon you turning yourself over to Christ and loving God with all of your might, mind and strength? You have a strange definition for grace.
Grace is unmerited favor. That means God gives it to you without you having to earn it. Nor do you deserve it when you get it.

You also fail because you are not capable of loving God with all of your might, mind and strength. There is always something holding you back.

So then everyone has received God's grace and are forgiven of their sins? So what are we arguing about then?

[BigJulie]

So then everyone has received God's grace and are forgiven of their sins? So what are we arguing about then?

:) Woo Hoo--we're all saved. No need to worry about being a Mormon! LOL

[Yodas_Prodigy]

So then everyone has received God's grace and are forgiven of their sins? So what are we arguing about then?

Where do you get that? Not from me. I am aware that LDS embrace a form universalism. If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.

God is not required to give grace to everyone. If he were, it would no longer be grace.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

When we turn ourselves over to Christ we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost who helps us do this. There is no earning as we are not capable of ourselves. That is the point of the scripture. But God does expect us to fully turn ourselves over to his will and to love him fully.

2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

After all you can do, then you get grace. That is works. Do you deny this LDS scripture?




Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Is this a commandment you believe is no longer in effect?)

Oh, it is in effect. But you can't do it. You never will be able to in this life. Any time you sin, you have chosen yourself over God.



So, you say we are not capable of loving God with all of our might, mind and strength? What about ***? Or Moses? Or Peter? or Paul? Did these men turn their lives fully over to Christ--and through the power of the Holy Ghost, were they perfected in him by his grace?

Moses killed a man and could not enter the promised land after he split the stone. *** got chastised by God starting in *** 38. Peter not only denied Jesus, he sided with Judizers and had to be confronted by Paul. Paul called himself the chief of sinners.



God gives two types of grace. The first is to everyone as everyone who dies will be resurrected.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Hence--all of us die, and all of as are made alive again through Christ.

First, this isn't about the final resurrection. It is speaking of being made alive, born again to the things of God.
This scripture is not speaking of ALL men (and women).




The second type of grace is the grace unto perfection. This he gives to those who love him.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This scripture is not speaking of Grace.

[BigJulie]

Where do you get that? Not from me. I am aware that LDS embrace a form universalism. If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.

God is not required to give grace to everyone. If he were, it would no longer be grace.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God, being a just God, does not pick and choose whom he will save. His grace is given to all. Because we all are in a fallen state because of Adam, God--being truly just--gives us all life again through him (grace). Certainly, it is not required--but as He is a just God, he extends his grace to all.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Or are you one of those who believes God creates some who will be condemned to hell from the beginning?)

[Yodas_Prodigy]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God, being a just God, does not pick and choose whom he will save. His grace is given to all. Because we all are in a fallen state because of Adam, God--being truly just--gives us all life again through him (grace). Certainly, it is not required--but as He is a just God, he extends his grace to all.

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.




Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Or are you one of those who believes God creates some who will be condemned to hell from the beginning?)


God only created Adam and Eve. No one else.

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.

[BigJulie]

2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

After all you can do, then you get grace. That is works. Do you deny this LDS scripture? I deny your interpretation of this scripture. You read this to mean that there is some type of equation of If and Then, when in reality--it reads as even after all you can do--you are still saved by grace. That is why the first part of this scripture is so important--why do we labor diligently to teach our children and our brethren to believe in Christ---because, even after all you can do--you are still saved by grace.





Oh, it is in effect. But you can't do it. You never will be able to in this life. Any time you sin, you have chosen yourself over God. Yes, and if you read that scripture in full-context rather than your prejudice eyes, you would see it says just that.




Moses killed a man and could not enter the promised land after he split the stone. *** got chastised by God starting in *** 38. Peter not only denied Jesus, he sided with Judizers and had to be confronted by Paul. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. Yup, and all these men--in spite of their efforts were still able to be perfected by the grace of God. But don't kid yourself for one moment that they did not come to the realization that they were to turn their lives fully over to God and love him with all of their might, mind, and strength. It is what God asks and it is the least we can do.




First, this isn't about the final resurrection. It is speaking of being made alive, born again to the things of God.
This scripture is not speaking of ALL men (and women). It says "ALL" men. Did you miss that?





This scripture is not speaking of Grace. It is speaking of the grace that God gives to those who love him.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God, being a just God, does not pick and choose whom he will save. His grace is given to all. Because we all are in a fallen state because of Adam, God--being truly just--gives us all life again through him (grace). Certainly, it is not required--but as He is a just God, he extends his grace to all.

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.




Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Or are you one of those who believes God creates some who will be condemned to hell from the beginning?)


God only created Adam and Eve. No one else.

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.

[BigJulie]

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
I read this to mean that they were chosen to be leaders in the pre-existence--not that God is unjust. Not sure how you deal with predestiny if you don't believe in a pre-existence.


John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Yup, Christ knew who would betray him. He was chosen to lead and his nature (or what we call intelligence) he chose to turn his will away from God.


John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. Once again, speaking to his disciples whom he has chosen to be his leaders.


John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Speaking to his leaders again.





God only created Adam and Eve. No one else. You really believe this? Wow!!!


27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.[/QUOTE] Yup. I can see you had to insert the names to make it read as you desire.

[BigJulie]

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
I read this to mean that they were chosen to be leaders in the pre-existence--not that God is unjust. Not sure how you deal with predestiny if you don't believe in a pre-existence.


John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ Yup, Christ knew who would betray him. He was chosen to lead and his nature (or what we call intelligence) he chose to turn his will away from God.


John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. Once again, speaking to his disciples whom he has chosen to be his leaders.


John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Speaking to his leaders again.





God only created Adam and Eve. No one else. You really believe this? Wow!!!


27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.[/QUOTE] Yup. I can see you had to insert the names to make it read as you desire.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

It says "ALL" men. Did you miss that?



The focus is all who have faith not all men, see context below. The resurrection of those without faith in Christ isn't grace. It's judgment.

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

The Risen Christ, Our Hope
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

The Last Enemy Destroyed
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I read this to mean that they were chosen to be leaders in the pre-existence--not that God is unjust. Not sure how you deal with predestiny if you don't believe in a pre-existence.

You are reading a presupposition in to the text. You are placing thoughts in to the text that are not there.



Yup, Christ knew who would betray him. He was chosen to lead and his nature (or what we call intelligence) he chose to turn his will away from God.

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.



Once again, speaking to his disciples whom he has chosen to be his leaders.

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.



Speaking to his leaders again.

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.



You really believe this? Wow!!!

Yes. I believe the Bible.



Yup. I can see you had to insert the names to make it read as you desire.

Who else was created in Genesis 1? No one. Am I somehow misleading? Of course not.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Looks like a double post.

[BigJulie]

I will post the scripture in context--you seem to have to lump a lot of things into one to ignore the details.

1 Co 15 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (Christ is the first one to be resurrected)

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (Because by Adam --a man--we experience death, it is also be man as well as God--Christ--we experience resurrection)


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (As all men die because of Adam, all men are resurrected because of Christ.)

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (But everyone will be resurrected based on their place--Christ will be first, and then after that--those who follow Christ)

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (Then everyone else--as Christ will deliver up everything and everyone to God the Father.)


For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (He will overcome all, even his enemies)

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (The last enemy of all will be death. All will overcome death)


Then--at this point the judgement will come and all will receive some form of grace except the Sons of Perdition.

Oh, and then right after this stuff--Paul starts talking about baptism for the dead. It makes total sense in context.

[BigJulie]

Love the fact that Alan and Apologette has inserted so many videos that the site won't work. Tried to edit--duplicate I can't delete.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Love the fact that Alan and Apologette has inserted so many videos that the site won't work. Tried to edit--duplicate I can't delete.

It is annoying to try to post... Have a nice evening.

[BigJulie]

You are reading a presupposition in to the text. You are placing thoughts in to the text that are not there. How about if you let me tell you what it says as I am the member and you are not. Why do you think it is proceeded with--we labor diligently to preach of Christ? And how about within the context of ALL of our other scriptures and teachings?




They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point. Yes--I completely agree, which means that if some guy goes to 12 years of Bible school or gets a Ph.D. in divinity, they cannot choose to be leaders in Christ church. I agree completely.








Yes. I believe the Bible. Did you miss the point of God being the creator of all things?




Who else was created in Genesis 1? No one. Am I somehow misleading? Of course not. Oh, so if you have children--do you see yourself as their creator and God has nothing to do with it? That's one of the more amazing things I have ever heard.

[MickeyS]

Where do you get that? Not from me. I am aware that LDS embrace a form universalism. If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.

God is not required to give grace to everyone. If he were, it would no longer be grace.

Ok....if God doesn't give everyone grace, and we have nothing to do with receiving grace...who gets grace?

[Phoenix]

Looks like a double post.

those can happen sometimes. so--how did you end up in this forum? what is your story?

[Phoenix]

If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.
so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?


No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.
.
so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

those can happen sometimes. so--how did you end up in this forum? what is your story?

I was invited and thought I would visit.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Ok....if God doesn't give everyone grace, and we have nothing to do with receiving grace...who gets grace?

God answers that here:

Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?

That is not how it works. First

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Second: Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.



so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.


God's grace is freely given by God to whom he chooses.

Romans 9:10-12New King James Version (NKJV)

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Did you miss the point of God being the creator of all things? No.




Oh, so if you have children--do you see yourself as their creator and God has nothing to do with it? That's one of the more amazing things I have ever heard.


I procreated my children. God put in place the process for that to happen.

Here is evidence to support my position.


In Genesis 2:7, God breathed the breath of life into Adam, causing Adam to become a “living soul.” Scripture nowhere records God performing this action again.
Adam had a son in his own likeness (Genesis 5:3). Adam’s descendants seem to be “living souls” without God breathing into them.
Genesis 2:2-3 seems to indicate that God ceased His creative work.
Adam's sin affects all men – both physically and spiritually – this makes sense if the body and soul both come from the parents.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I think this best describes what I am trying to say, see below. The resurrection is not a good thing for everyone, some to everlasting life and others to eternal punishment.
Grace is not part of the resurrection experience for those heading to eternal punishment.

Daniel 12:2New King James Version (NKJV)

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[MickeyS]

God answers that here:

Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

This states that God is the judge and knows how to strike that balance between justice and mercy. It further confirms that we do not dictate to God how He should run things.

And I agree....God is our judge and we shouldn't tell him what to do

[BigJulie]

God answers that here:

Romans 9:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whomever I will have comp***ion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

This is the exact same argument I have seen another poster use-using the exact same verses even. I am thinking you must be a Calvinist or at least follow some of their thinking.

This same point caused a great argument between the evangelicals on this site. Jill erased all of those threads (or maybe moved them to another forum.)

I guess the point is that there a many Christians who disagree with your take--

which leads back to this question--how do you know when you are interpreting the Bible correctly--as especially this point will bring many evangelicals to disagree.

[BigJulie]

No.




I procreated my children. God put in place the process for that to happen.

Here is evidence to support my position.

[LIST]
In Genesis 2:7, God breathed the breath of life into Adam, causing Adam to become a “living soul.” Scripture nowhere records God performing this action again.

So, do you believe you created your children's spirits?

and, just thought you might find this interesting:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

So--once again, back to the question--how do you know whether or not your interpretation is correct?-- as there are many (even within the evangelicals) who would disagree with you.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

So, do you believe you created your children's spirits?

No. I procreated my children's spirits.



and, just thought you might find this interesting:

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The disciples did not receive the Holy Ghost until Pentecost, fifty days after P***over.

Acts 2New King James Version (NKJV)

Coming of the Holy Spirit
2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Crowd’s Response
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the mul***ude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”

Peter’s Sermon
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to p*** in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to p***
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’[b]





So--once again, back to the question--how do you know whether or not your interpretation is correct?-- as there are many (even within the evangelicals) who would disagree with you.

First, I have the Holy Spirit. Second, I use a solid hermeneutic. Third, there is no other option that makes sense.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

This states that God is the judge and knows how to strike that balance between justice and mercy. It further confirms that we do not dictate to God how He should run things.

And I agree....God is our judge and we shouldn't tell him what to do

You completely misunderstand this. I take the blame. I left out verse 11.

Romans 9:11New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Here, read this part again, "then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

[Yodas_Prodigy]

This is the exact same argument I have seen another poster use-using the exact same verses even. I am thinking you must be a Calvinist or at least follow some of their thinking.

This same point caused a great argument between the evangelicals on this site. Jill erased all of those threads (or maybe moved them to another forum.)

I guess the point is that there a many Christians who disagree with your take--

which leads back to this question--how do you know when you are interpreting the Bible correctly--as especially this point will bring many evangelicals to disagree.

I am Reformed. My interpretation is based on a solid hermeneutic. I can explain what I believe, how I believe, and how I came to that conclusion. We are often accused of being arrogant because we tend to have answers to just about everything and am confident of that answer.

But I am honest about what I am not sure of and am able to give various perspectives due to my broad knowledge and experiences.

[BigJulie]

I am Reformed. My interpretation is based on a solid hermeneutic. I can explain what I believe, how I believe, and how I came to that conclusion. We are often accused of being arrogant because we tend to have answers to just about everything and am confident of that answer.

But I am honest about what I am not sure of and am able to give various perspectives due to my broad knowledge and experiences.

I would disagree with your ***essment--that you use "solid ermeneutic"---as there are many scriptures that disagree with your conclusions. The other question is--which do you weigh more heavily, what you learn via the Holy Spirit versus what you learn by "solid hermeneutic"?

[MickeyS]

You completely misunderstand this. I take the blame. I left out verse 11.

Romans 9:11New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Here, read this part again, "then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

The point of using the twins as an example, is to show that nobody is en***led to an automatic birthright of salvation just because of their bloodline or because of what THEY believe they have a right to. That in the end, it is up to God, and nobody can "will" nor "run", meaning...nobody can tell God how to judge.


I know what I believe this says, but I'm interested in how you interpret it, because I'm not getting an answer from you.

Do you believe God has pre-picked certain people to be chosen for salvation and the rest have no chance no matter what? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but you haven't clarified it, so if I'm wrong, please clarify, thanks.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

The point of using the twins as an example, is to show that nobody is en***led to an automatic birthright of salvation just because of their bloodline or because of what THEY believe they have a right to. That in the end, it is up to God, and nobody can "will" nor "run", meaning...nobody can tell God how to judge.


I know what I believe this says, but I'm interested in how you interpret it, because I'm not getting an answer from you.

Do you believe God has pre-picked certain people to be chosen for salvation and the rest have no chance no matter what? I don't want to put words into your mouth, but you haven't clarified it, so if I'm wrong, please clarify, thanks.

I think I have been quite clear by the scriptures that I have quoted. God elects, chooses, those with whom he wants to add to his Kingdom. Those that he does not choose are not interested in his kingdom and don't want to serve him.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I would disagree with your ***essment--that you use "solid ermeneutic"---as there are many scriptures that disagree with your conclusions. The other question is--which do you weigh more heavily, what you learn via the Holy Spirit versus what you learn by "solid hermeneutic"?

Then prove me wrong... The problem with groups like yours is that you ignore one scripture and embrace another. The method I use reconciles those differing scriptures.

[BigJulie]

Then prove me wrong... The problem with groups like yours is that you ignore one scripture and embrace another. The method I use reconciles those differing scriptures.

I see that is what you are doing, ignoring other scriptures to believe a point.

Your first wrong ***umption:
I think I have been quite clear by the scriptures that I have quoted. God elects, chooses, those with whom he wants to add to his Kingdom. Those that he does not choose are not interested in his kingdom and don't want to serve him.

Proof:

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

[MickeyS]

I think I have been quite clear by the scriptures that I have quoted. God elects, chooses, those with whom he wants to add to his Kingdom. Those that he does not choose are not interested in his kingdom and don't want to serve him.

No, you did not make it clear or state anywhere that those who are not chosen are "not interested"

Or I wouldn't have asked

[Apologette]

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?


so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.

God doesn't give grace to the Devil. God foreknows those who are His - read the first chapter of Ephesians.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I see that is what you are doing, ignoring other scriptures to believe a point.

Your first wrong ***umption:

Proof:

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:


Context - 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

God does not show partiality to those who deny him. But those who fear him, he accepts them...

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Proof:

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

This verse is not for unbelievers. It is for people who are already believers. James wrote is letter to believers and for believers. If you use this verse to get people to pray as to whether the LDS religion is true, you are mis-using this verse...

[MickeyS]

Context - 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

God does not show partiality to those who deny him. But those who fear him, he accepts them...

Who fear Him and WORKS righteousness...

God knows all. He can see all points in time....He knows what everyone will do...He is omniscient. Because of this, He knows which people will accept Him, and which won't. It doesn't mean he actually chose them to do so....it simply means He already knew that they would. The point is, He still treats ALL fairly, and those who reject Him, still have the same fair opportunity to do so as anyone else. It is still up to the individual to make the choices that lead them to accepting Him or rejecting Him. So He simply knows which people will respect Him and WORK righteousness....but they still have to do so, as this scripture states.

Prior to them rejecting Him....He treated them the same as anyone else.

Jesus Christ atoned for ALL mankind, correct?

[MickeyS]

This verse is not for unbelievers. It is for people who are already believers. James wrote is letter to believers and for believers. If you use this verse to get people to pray as to whether the LDS religion is true, you are mis-using this verse...

Yes, and those who are seeking further truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ from The Father clearly already are believers...or they wouldn't be asking God expecting an answer unless they have faith....because they believe.

I would think that to be obvious. An atheist's prayers would be meaningless because they wouldn't be expecting an answer, so they would not receive one.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

[BigJulie]

Context - 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

God does not show partiality to those who deny him. But those who fear him, he accepts them...

Wait, when I stated that we must follow Christ and love him with our heart, might, and strength--you stated that this was "earning" your way to heaven. Now you qualify that whoever fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him? Boy, that sounds like you are making my point for me.

Okay, I am curious what you believe it means to "fear him"??

[Apologette]

so, like,for example if God wanted to give His grace to those who obey, in faith, His commandments the best they can in their circumstances and repent when they fail, that'd be okay, right?


so Gods grace is not freely given? it is only given to those who merit it through obeying Him out of faith and love for Him? okay, fair enough.
You have some gall to talk about Mormons obeying commandments, when they can't even obey the first. You have other gods - you are lost in idolatry.

[Apologette]

Who fear Him and WORKS righteousness...

God knows all. He can see all points in time....He knows what everyone will do...He is omniscient. Because of this, He knows which people will accept Him, and which won't. It doesn't mean he actually chose them to do so....it simply means He already knew that they would. The point is, He still treats ALL fairly, and those who reject Him, still have the same fair opportunity to do so as anyone else. It is still up to the individual to make the choices that lead them to accepting Him or rejecting Him. So He simply knows which people will respect Him and WORK righteousness....but they still have to do so, as this scripture states.

Prior to them rejecting Him....He treated them the same as anyone else.

Jesus Christ atoned for ALL mankind, correct?

What kind of righteousness would that be - going to a spooky temple and wearing a wedding dress? Who are you then married to - the devil who frequents Mormons rites? Participation in Satanic rites makes one a follower of Satan.

[Apologette]

Wait, when I stated that we must follow Christ and love him with our heart, might, and strength--you stated that this was "earning" your way to heaven. Now you qualify that whoever fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him? Boy, that sounds like you are making my point for me.

Okay, I am curious what you believe it means to "fear him"??

Loving a demonic impersonation of Jesus - the Devil's brother - is not following the Biblical Christ.

[MickeyS]

What kind of righteousness would that be - going to a spooky temple and wearing a wedding dress? Who are you then married to - the devil who frequents Mormons rites? Participation in Satanic rites makes one a follower of Satan.

Your response makes absolutely no sense and had nothing to do with the scripture....oh man...you're funny...like SO funny :D

In your zeal to "specialize" in Mormon "history", have you neglected to read the Bible??

I'm really just kidding ;)....but seriously, that had nothing to do with the verse

[Berean]

I think this scripture says it best--in the part you did not bold "“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

It's a simple formula--turn your life over to Christ, love God with all of your might, mind and strength--and then by His Grace, you will be perfected.

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[MickeyS]

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)


Before I address this further, can I ask you a question first?

What do you believe this to mean?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)


And then this also

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (New Testament, Luke, Luke 13)

Thanks

[Berean]

Before I address this further, can I ask you a question first?

What do you believe this to mean?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)


And then this also

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (New Testament, Luke, Luke 13)

Thanks

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

[MickeyS]

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

Well, because I think they are pretty clear, Jesus tells us to be "perfect" like God is "perfect". Jesus....tells us. I think if He says to do something, we're supposed to do it.

Why would we not do that?

Second, it seems that it's clear that by a person's own actions, they risk not being saved, unless you define "perish" as something else.

That's why I need to ask what you think. It's the Bible, so you should have a clear concise answer to the verses right?

[Berean]

Duplicate post

[Berean]

Well, because I think they are pretty clear, Jesus tells us to be "perfect" like God is "perfect". Jesus....tells us. I think if He says to do something, we're supposed to do it.

Why would we not do that?

Second, it seems that it's clear that by a person's own actions, they risk not being saved, unless you define "perish" as something else.

That's why I need to ask what you think. It's the Bible, so you should have a clear concise answer to the verses right?

Why do you feel you "need" to ask me what I think of those verses, before you can comment on my post concerning LDS Scripture? You can comment on what I posted or not, that's your choice, but why are we playing charades? What does my opinion of those verses have to do with my comments and Elder Theodore M. Burton's comments concerning the requirements LDS must fulfill prior to grace becoming effective; How sinless perfection must first be achieved before "grace" kicks in? Do you think these verses are some sort of a re****al? If so, how so?

Why is it essential that I comment on these verses before you will comment on mine? What's your point?

[MickeyS]

Why do you feel you "need" to ask me what I think of those verses, before you can comment on my post concerning LDS Scripture? You can comment on what I posted or not, that's your choice, but why are we playing charades? What does my opinion of those verses have to do with my comments and Elder Theodore M. Burton's comments concerning the requirements LDS must fulfill prior to grace becoming effective; How sinless perfection must first be achieved before "grace" kicks in? Do you think these verses are some sort of a re****al? If so, how so?

Why is it essential that I comment on these verses before you will comment on mine? What's your point?

So you have no answer then. Even though you said you did and that you would share it.

I'm not the one playing games

[Berean]

So you have no answer then. Even though you said you did and that you would share it.

I'm not the one playing games

Yes you are playing games. I'm merely asking what my opinion of those verses has to do with my comments concerning the rather ****ing LDS Scriptures? It seems like you're attempting to dodge the issue with a distraction. If you can convince me that my "opinion" of those verses has something to do with my original comments, then I'll play along. Until then, please stick to the topic of my post.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[BigJulie]

Yes you are playing games. I'm merely asking what my opinion of those verses has to do with my comments concerning the rather ****ing LDS Scriptures? It seems like you're attempting to dodge the issue with a distraction. If you can convince me that my "opinion" of those verses has something to do with my original comments, then I'll play along. Until then, please stick to the topic of my post.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)


Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?


But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[Berean]

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?


But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

I fail to see your point. The Bible, the BoM and Mormonism all teach different eschatology.

The example I gave you was from the Book of Mormon. The issue is that LDS grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do." (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime all on your own. Even the desire to sin. And if you don't do that, you are not truly obedient.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong on that?

[MickeyS]

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

[Berean]

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that.

[MickeyS]

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

[BigJulie]

I fail to see your point. The Bible, the BoM and Mormonism all teach different eschatology.

The example I gave you was from the Book of Mormon. The issue is that LDS grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do." (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime all on your own. Even the desire to sin. And if you don't do that, you are not truly obedient.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong on that?

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[Berean]

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that, or what it has to do with my OP.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[Berean]

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The if/then statement, is in the Book of Mormon. 2 Ne 25:23.

The Christian (Bible) understanding of grace is much different than LDS grace. LDS must overcome their sins completely in this lifetime, or they are sealed to Satan for eternity in the afterlife.

Christians on the other hand, are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Which means Jesus pays the penalty for our sins and by having faith in His Work on the Cross for salvation rather than our own works (which is what LDS do) we achieve that which Mormons can only hope for but will never actually achieve -- the very sinlessness of Christ.

That's the point. So showing me Bible verses which don't apply to LDS is pointless.

[BigJulie]

The if/then statement, is in the Book of Mormon. 2 Ne 25:23.

The Christian (Bible) understanding of grace is much different than LDS grace. LDS must overcome their sins completely in this lifetime, or they are sealed to Satan for eternity in the afterlife.

Christians on the other hand, are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Which means Jesus pays the penalty for our sins and by having faith in His Work on the Cross for salvation rather than our own works (which is what LDS do) we achieve that which Mormons can only hope for but will never actually achieve -- the very sinlessness of Christ.

That's the point. So showing me Bible verses which don't apply to LDS is pointless.
I can see you misunderstand our teachings, but I am wondering why you will not address the one scripture I gave you.

The point I am making is that the same point that you misinterpret in the Book of Mormon is also found within the Bible.

[Berean]

I can see you misunderstand our teachings, but I am wondering why you will not address the one scripture I gave you.

The point I am making is that the same point that you misinterpret in the Book of Mormon is also found within the Bible.

I told you why I won't address the verses you posted.

Why won't you address the LDS Scriptures "I" posted? Why do I have to answer your question before you will address my argument?

What am I misinterpreting? The if/then statement is clearly there.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[Berean]

If either of you are hinting that none of this is true because the Bible disagrees with it, then how is it that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth?

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
* Joseph Smith (LDS.org)


I can see you misunderstand our teachings, but I am wondering why you will not address the one scripture I gave you.

The point I am making is that the same point that you misinterpret in the Book of Mormon is also found within the Bible.

I told you why I won't address the verses you posted. The Bible and Mormonism don't agree on the point you're attempting to make.

Why won't you address the LDS Scriptures "I" posted?

What am I misinterpreting? The if/then statement is clearly there.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[MickeyS]

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that, or what it has to do with my OP.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

I did answer your question. But I'll respond to this fully, and then will you answer my question, or are you going to be dishonest again?

[Berean]

I did answer your question. But I'll respond to this fully, and then will you answer my question, or are you going to be dishonest again?

I was not dishonest.

Accusing me of that is dishonest.

I'll await your answer.

In the meantime, allow me to remind you that the Scriptures you posted do not apply. That's mostly why I chose not to answer until you offered the explanation you finally agree to above.

There are clearly 3 different Eschatologies involved -- Christian, LDS and Book of Mormon. All three teach different means of salvation, so you cannot use Bible verses as proof text for the Book of Mormon or even LDS doctrine as proof text for the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines that separate Mormonism from Christianity, including:

Aaronic priesthood
Baptisms for the dead
Celestial marriage
Church organization
Exaltation
Polytheism
Three heavens etc.

[MickeyS]

I was not dishonest.

Accusing me of that is dishonest.

I'll await your answer.

In the meantime, allow me to remind you that the Scriptures you posted do not apply. That's mostly why I chose not to answer until you offered the explanation you finally agree to above.

There are clearly 3 different Eschatologies involved -- Christian, LDS and Book of Mormon. All three teach different means of salvation, so you cannot use Bible verses as proof text for the Book of Mormon or even LDS doctrine as proof text for the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines that separate Mormonism from Christianity, including:

Aaronic priesthood
Baptisms for the dead
Celestial marriage
Church organization
Exaltation
Polytheism
Three heavens etc.


Whoa.....none of that was relevant to you response ....who's moving the goalposts now?

[MickeyS]

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that, or what it has to do with my OP.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

Now, it's quite clear that "exaltation" is entering into the Kingdom of God. Are you saying those who are sinful can enter into the Kingdom of God?

Amulek makes it clear that when he says "saved" he has in mind the entering into God's kingdom. "...he hath said that no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven.."Nobody can enter into God's kingdom if they are burdened by the effects of sin. Something must be done in order to remove that taint. Amulek explains how in verse 40 (Alma 11:40):

"40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."

To enter into God's kingdom, exaltation or "eternal life", one must first be cleansed of transgression by believing on the name of Jesus Christ.

Now, are you saying, you have no part in whether or not you are "saved"? It is not in any part by any action of your own, at all?

Because it seems to me, that if you believe the Bible....that's not true.
"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (New Testament, Luke, Luke 13)

Now I ask you, again, what do you understand about this verse, does it not pertain to your salvation?

[alanmolstad]

I was not dishonest.

Accusing me of that is dishonest.


There are some well known trouble makers on every forum this one is no exception.

To counter this - Please report any problems you might have with anyone,as well as always keep in mind the use of the Ignore List when you find people are not able to keep from making personal remarks.