Why Do LDS Perform Proxy Baptisms? The BoM Says There Is No Seconed Chance

[Berean]

lds.org claims the reason for proxy baptism is:

"that they receive the fulness of the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ." http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Baptism_for_the_Dead

But, how can that be when the BoM clearly states:

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Mosiah 2: 36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved*

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God,the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

April 1995 Finding Forgiveness Richard G.Scott

Obedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins.

The Gospel of Repentance
By President Spencer W. Kimball
"The Lord teaches that he cannot forgive people in their sins; he can only save them from their abandoned sins."

Alma 34: 34,35

34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience Delbert L. Stapley
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ience?lang=eng (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=eng)

We must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appe***es are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

It is obvious LDS either discipline their lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong about that?

[BigJulie]

lds.org claims the reason for proxy baptism is:

"that they receive the fulness of the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ." http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Baptism_for_the_Dead

But, how can that be when the BoM clearly states:

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Mosiah 2: 36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved*

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God,the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

April 1995 Finding Forgiveness Richard G.Scott

Obedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins.

The Gospel of Repentance
By President Spencer W. Kimball
"The Lord teaches that he cannot forgive people in their sins; he can only save them from their abandoned sins."

Alma 34: 34,35

34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience Delbert L. Stapley
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ience?lang=eng (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=eng)

We must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appe***es are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

It is obvious LDS either discipline their lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong about that?

This can be understood in light of this scripture found in the New Testament:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

[Berean]

This can be understood in light of this scripture found in the New Testament:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

So the Book of Mormon is wrong on that?

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
* Joseph Smith (LDS.org)

I thought the Bible is corrupt and unreliable?

The following is just one example of some of the teachings that allegedly came from God through Mormon prophets/seers/revelators concerning the Bible.

"God gave many revelations to Hebrew Prophets, in the Hebrew language. Some of these revelations have been translated by human wisdom into many other languages, and called the Bible. The same revelations have been translated many times by different authors: but no two translations agree. They differ not only in words and style, but also in sentiment, according to the various opinions of the translators. These clashing translations are circulated among the people, as the words of God, when , in reality they are the words of translators; and words too, selected by their own human wisdom. ... Therefore, so far as the uninspired translators and the people are concerned, no part of the Bible can, with certainty, be known by them to be the word of God. ... The Hebrew and Greek m****cripts of the Bible from which translations have been made, are evidently very much corrupted, as appears from the fact, that scarcely any two copies are alike in any chapter or verse. ... This uncertainty, combined with the imperfections of uninspired translations, renders the Bibles of all languages, at the present day, emphatically the words of men, instead of the pure words of God." - Pratt, Spiritual Gifts, pages 70-71

It's kind of silly using such a corrupt work as your "proof text."

[MickeyS]

lds.org claims the reason for proxy baptism is:

"that they receive the fulness of the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ." http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Baptism_for_the_Dead

But, how can that be when the BoM clearly states:

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

2 Nephi 9:38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Mosiah 2: 36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved*

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God,the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

39 And now I say unto you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.

April 1995 Finding Forgiveness Richard G.Scott

Obedience to all the commandments. Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life with strength to focus on the abandonment of specific sins.

The Gospel of Repentance
By President Spencer W. Kimball
"The Lord teaches that he cannot forgive people in their sins; he can only save them from their abandoned sins."

Alma 34: 34,35

34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience Delbert L. Stapley
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...ience?lang=eng (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1977/10/the-blessings-of-righteous-obedience?lang=eng)

We must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appe***es are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …

“This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

“If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

“That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)

It is obvious LDS either discipline their lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong about that?

If you looked up why baptisms for the dead are performed, it's quite clear.
"Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not **** those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them."

So....what about the rest of the people? Those who DID have a fair opportunity to hear and accept the gospel? Those who DID understand the importance of baptism?

Amulek is teaching the Zoramites, who are dissenters from among the Nephites, who had already been taught concerning Christ, but then had apostatized from the truth. Amulek is warning the Zoramites that if they do not repent in this life, they, having once had the truth and rejected it, will not be saved.

So, these verses clearly are for those who have already received and accepted the gospel....in this life. Not for those who have not.

So where is the Book of Mormon wrong? Perhaps you just didn't understand the context of the verses. It may be wise to research that a little before misquoting scripture and teachings you are clearly unfamiliar with.

[Phoenix]

If you looked up why baptisms for the dead are performed, it's quite clear.
"Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not **** those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them."

So....what about the rest of the people? Those who DID have a fair opportunity to hear and accept the gospel? Those who DID understand the importance of baptism?

Amulek is teaching the Zoramites, who are dissenters from among the Nephites, who had already been taught concerning Christ, but then had apostatized from the truth. Amulek is warning the Zoramites that if they do not repent in this life, they, having once had the truth and rejected it, will not be saved.

So, these verses clearly are for those who have already received and accepted the gospel....in this life. Not for those who have not.

So where is the Book of Mormon wrong? Perhaps you just didn't understand the context of the verses. It may be wise to research that a little before misquoting scripture and teachings you are clearly unfamiliar with.

Amen! Great re****al. there isn't more that needs to be said.

[Phoenix]

If you looked up why baptisms for the dead are performed, it's quite clear.
"Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not **** those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them."

So....what about the rest of the people? Those who DID have a fair opportunity to hear and accept the gospel? Those who DID understand the importance of baptism?

Amulek is teaching the Zoramites, who are dissenters from among the Nephites, who had already been taught concerning Christ, but then had apostatized from the truth. Amulek is warning the Zoramites that if they do not repent in this life, they, having once had the truth and rejected it, will not be saved.

So, these verses clearly are for those who have already received and accepted the gospel....in this life. Not for those who have not.

So where is the Book of Mormon wrong? Perhaps you just didn't understand the context of the verses. It may be wise to research that a little before misquoting scripture and teachings you are clearly unfamiliar with.

A great re****al. What more needs to be said?

[BigJulie]

So the Book of Mormon is wrong on that?

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
* Joseph Smith (LDS.org)

I thought the Bible is corrupt and unreliable?

The following is just one example of some of the teachings that allegedly came from God through Mormon prophets/seers/revelators concerning the Bible.

"God gave many revelations to Hebrew Prophets, in the Hebrew language. Some of these revelations have been translated by human wisdom into many other languages, and called the Bible. The same revelations have been translated many times by different authors: but no two translations agree. They differ not only in words and style, but also in sentiment, according to the various opinions of the translators. These clashing translations are circulated among the people, as the words of God, when , in reality they are the words of translators; and words too, selected by their own human wisdom. ... Therefore, so far as the uninspired translators and the people are concerned, no part of the Bible can, with certainty, be known by them to be the word of God. ... The Hebrew and Greek m****cripts of the Bible from which translations have been made, are evidently very much corrupted, as appears from the fact, that scarcely any two copies are alike in any chapter or verse. ... This uncertainty, combined with the imperfections of uninspired translations, renders the Bibles of all languages, at the present day, emphatically the words of men, instead of the pure words of God." - Pratt, Spiritual Gifts, pages 70-71

It's kind of silly using such a corrupt work as your "proof text."

You are changing the subject. Whenever I bring up Peter to discuss the doctrine of salvation for the dead---I usually get either a change of subject or a deer-in-the-headlights response. I was hoping you would be up to discuss how you interpret Peter's teachings since you criticize us for teaching the same thing. So far, I have never heard an evangelical be able to touch these verses.

[Berean]

If you looked up why baptisms for the dead are performed, it's quite clear.
"Many people have lived on the earth who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who were not baptized. Others lived without fully understanding the importance of the ordinance of baptism. Still others were baptized, but without proper authority.

Because He is a loving God, the Lord does not **** those people who, through no fault of their own, never had the opportunity for baptism. He has therefore authorized baptisms to be performed by proxy for them."

So....what about the rest of the people? Those who DID have a fair opportunity to hear and accept the gospel? Those who DID understand the importance of baptism?

Nonsense.

I know why LDS practice proxy baptism, I even included a link to the explanation in the OP. But that's not the question. The question is, why do you practice proxy baptism when Mormon scripture commands Mormons to teach ONLY faith, repentance and baptism as doctrine. Teaching as doctrine anything more than faith, repentance and baptism is of the devil. ( 3 Nephi 11:31-40, D&C 10:67-68, Mosiah 18:18-20).

Not to mention, the Book of Mormon clearly teaches that "this life" is the time to repent, and there is no second chance in the afterlife. I refer you again to your own scriptures in the OP.



Amulek is teaching the Zoramites, who are dissenters from among the Nephites, who had already been taught concerning Christ, but then had apostatized from the truth. Amulek is warning the Zoramites that if they do not repent in this life, they, having once had the truth and rejected it, will not be saved.

So, these verses clearly are for those who have already received and accepted the gospel....in this life. Not for those who have not.

Nonsense. These verses neither say nor imply what you insist they do.

Tell that to Spencer W. Kimball, Richard G. Scott and Delbert L. Stapley, who's commentaries don't limit this teaching to Amulek and the Zoramites. I included their comments in the OP. Did you even read the OP, or just the parts that didn't challenge your belief system beyond your ability to accept the truth?



So where is the Book of Mormon wrong? Perhaps you just didn't understand the context of the verses. It may be wise to research that a little before misquoting scripture and teachings you are clearly unfamiliar with.

Nonsense.

Clearly you do not understand, much less follow the teachings of your own "scriptures." (and I use that term loosely)

As I demonstrated, and as your leaders explained in the OP, the context you claim is simply wrong and your exegesis is not proper. It is blatantly obvious that these scriptures and your leaders comments, apply to every Mormon.

LDS/Mormons clearly disobey your own scriptures and, first, adopt and practice a doctrine other than faith, baptism and repentance, and then practice it when your own scriptures clearly indicate that you are going to hell if you do.

Not wise.

So we're back to the original question. Why do LDS practice proxy baptism when it is clearly taught by your scriptures (and I use that term loosely) and your leaders, that "this life" is the time to repent and there is no second chance in the afterlife? If you die in your sin, there you will remain, sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. (See Alma, Nephi, Mosiah, Moroni).

[Berean]

You are changing the subject. Whenever I bring up Peter to discuss the doctrine of salvation for the dead---I usually get either a change of subject or a deer-in-the-headlights response. I was hoping you would be up to discuss how you interpret Peter's teachings since you criticize us for teaching the same thing. So far, I have never heard an evangelical be able to touch these verses.

Nice dodge.

If you want to talk about Peter's teachings, then start another thread.

This thread asks the question: "Why do LDS practice proxy baptism when it is clearly taught by your scriptures (and I use that term loosely) and your leaders, that "this life" is the time to repent and there is no second chance in the afterlife? If you die in your sin, there you will remain, sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. (See Alma, Nephi, Mosiah, Moroni).

[Berean]

A great re****al. What more needs to be said?

Nonsense.

For starters you could tell us why LDS practice proxy baptism when it is clearly taught by your scriptures (and I use that term loosely) and your leaders, that "this life" is the time to repent and there is no second chance in the afterlife. If you die in your sin, there you will remain, sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. (See Alma, Nephi, Mosiah, Moroni, and Kimball, Scott, Stapley quoted above ).