The Sad Case of Conditioning Found in the Mormon Cult

[Apologette]

What I've noticed on apologetic sites which makes one shake one's head is the fact that Mormons have a head in the sand mentality and simply ignore facts (one here says they are just second or third hand bits of info). The cult did this as well until the Internet forced the cult's hand and they had to issue the "essays" finally admitting facts that Christians had been pointing out all along but which had been denied by Mormons.

For instance, we have the case of Oliver Cowdery accusing Joey Smith of adultery with Fanny Alger, his and Emma's live in teenage maid. The relationship between Fanny and Joe was a huge scandal in the LDS Church in Kirtland, Ohio, and Oliver Cowdery (a supposed witness to the gold plates), and we have historical documentation of that scandal in the letter Oliver wrote to his brother:

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/oliver-cowdery-letter-to-warren-a-cowdery-olivers-brother-january-21-1838/

"I never confessed intimated or admitted/ that I ever willfully lied about him [Joseph Smith]. When he was here we had some conversation in which in every instance, I did not fail to affirm that what I had said was strictly true A dirty, nasty, filthy s****e [“affair” is overwritten in Warren F. Cowdery’s handwriting] of his and Fanny Algers was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deviated from the truth on the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."

Here it is in black and white for the Mormon naysayers here - just as the Christians have posted over and over. Mormons are free to deny the facts - the fact that Joe groomed and then seduced a young teenage girl in is own household in Kirtland long before he got any supposed revelation from his sex-appeasing "god" allowing him to take as many "virgins" as he desired.

Note: the link above is to a Mormon site. But whichever way you want to spin the letter (as Mormons do) the facts of Joey's affair with his little maid are verified, and verified by Mormons!

[BigJulie]

What I've noticed on apologetic sites which makes one shake one's head is the fact that Mormons have a head in the sand mentality and simply ignore facts (one here says they are just second or third hand bits of info). The cult did this as well until the Internet forced the cult's hand and they had to issue the "essays" finally admitting facts that Christians had been pointing out all along but which had been denied by Mormons.

For instance, we have the case of Oliver Cowdery accusing Joey Smith of adultery with Fanny Alger, his and Emma's live in teenage maid. The relationship between Fanny and Joe was a huge scandal in the LDS Church in Kirtland, Ohio, and Oliver Cowdery (a supposed witness to the gold plates), and we have historical documentation of that scandal in the letter Oliver wrote to his brother:

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/oliver-cowdery-letter-to-warren-a-cowdery-olivers-brother-january-21-1838/

"I never confessed intimated or admitted/ that I ever willfully lied about him [Joseph Smith]. When he was here we had some conversation in which in every instance, I did not fail to affirm that what I had said was strictly true A dirty, nasty, filthy s****e [“affair” is overwritten in Warren F. Cowdery’s handwriting] of his and Fanny Algers was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deviated from the truth on the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself."

Here it is in black and white for the Mormon naysayers here - just as the Christians have posted over and over. Mormons are free to deny the facts - the fact that Joe groomed and then seduced a young teenage girl in is own household in Kirtland long before he got any supposed revelation from his sex-appeasing "god" allowing him to take as many "virgins" as he desired.

Note: the link above is to a Mormon site. But whichever way you want to spin the letter (as Mormons do) the facts of Joey's affair with his little maid are verified, and verified by Mormons!

Apologette--do you not see that there are atheists and other religions that accuse Christians of having their head in the sand? And that just as you have reasons for believing as you do, we do too? And do you not recognize malicious gossip when you hear it or repeat it?

[Apologette]

Gosh, so you're okay with Joey Smith sleeping with a 16 year old who was his house maid behind Emma's back?

[BigJulie]

Gosh, so you're okay with Joey Smith sleeping with a 16 year old who was his house maid behind Emma's back?

Is this how you conduct business in your neighborhood?--if someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone says something about that third of fourth person removed that is mean and vicious, this is what you spread?

[Apologette]

Is this how you conduct business in your neighborhood?--if someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone says something about that third of fourth person removed that is mean and vicious, this is what you spread?

You are the one holding up this molester, Joe Smith, as the most important figure since Jesus Christ - and in fact, your cult, the Mormons, has stated that his blood was needed to restore the New Covenant. You are the one, Julie, who needs to admit t hat you are following a pervert, a pedophile, who brought a little orphan girl into his home in Kirtalnd, Ohio, supposedly to "help" his wife, and he "helped" himself to her. And your own cult admits he supposedly "married" her. Cut us a break.

[BigJulie]

You are the one holding up this molester, Joe Smith, as the most important figure since Jesus Christ - and in fact, your cult, the Mormons, has stated that his blood was needed to restore the New Covenant. You are the one, Julie, who needs to admit t hat you are following a pervert, a pedophile, who brought a little orphan girl into his home in Kirtalnd, Ohio, supposedly to "help" his wife, and he "helped" himself to her. And your own cult admits he supposedly "married" her. Cut us a break.

Actually, you are so off base as to what our church teaches both as doctrine and all else, that I am not surprised you have your story wrong on this one too.

[Apologette]

Prove that statement Julie! You are off base in not recognizing what a creep Joseph Smith really was!

[BigJulie]

Prove that statement Julie! You are off base in not recognizing what a creep Joseph Smith really was!

The proof lies with you Apologette. You keep making accusations about the church or what we believe or our history. You can't just make a blanket statement and then ask me to resource it for you. Your articles are NOT primary sources. No scholar would back them as factual. If anyone wants to go find out what primary sources are out there regarding our doctrines or our history, they are there to be found. The church does not hide anything and even gives the differing viewpoints--meaning some look at a primary resource and think one thing and some look at a primary resource and think another.

The truth on this that there are NO first hand witnesses, so everything is hearsay or a second or third-hand account--and even those accounts are vague.

Of course, you are going to find some that infer the worst and then you are going to have others that infer the best.

But for you to come on here and state that you have "facts" and that we put our head in the sand is so off-based as to be similar to Michael Moore expressing how wonderful Cuba's healthcare is. It is slanted information from tainted sources at its best and is sheer propaganda at its worst.

But here ARE the facts. We do have first hand accounts of those who lived and experienced polygamy. There are many testimonies of both to its difficulties as well as its truthfulness and rightness at THAT time.

To me, ultimately, the propaganda you post is the worst type of gossip because the person is no longer around to defend themselves.

And personally, I am not naive enough to believe I can understand the ins and outs of my neighbor's lives, let alone someone who lived 200 years ago.

[Phoenix]

The proof lies with you Apologette. You keep making accusations about the church or what we believe or our history. You can't just make a blanket statement and then ask me to resource it for you. Your articles are NOT primary sources. No scholar would back them as factual. If anyone wants to go find out what primary sources are out there regarding our doctrines or our history, they are there to be found. The church does not hide anything and even gives the differing viewpoints--meaning some look at a primary resource and think one thing and some look at a primary resource and think another.

The truth on this that there are NO first hand witnesses, so everything is hearsay or a second or third-hand account--and even those accounts are vague.

Of course, you are going to find some that infer the worst and then you are going to have others that infer the best.

But for you to come on here and state that you have "facts" and that we put our head in the sand is so off-based as to be similar to Michael Moore expressing how wonderful Cuba's healthcare is. It is slanted information from tainted sources at its best and is sheer propaganda at its worst.

But here ARE the facts. We do have first hand accounts of those who lived and experienced polygamy. There are many testimonies of both to its difficulties as well as its truthfulness and rightness at THAT time.

To me, ultimately, the propaganda you post is the worst type of gossip because the person is no longer around to defend themselves.

And personally, I am not naive enough to believe I can understand the ins and outs of my neighbor's lives, let alone someone who lived 200 years ago.

that was a great response.

[Apologette]

The proof lies with you Apologette. You keep making accusations about the church or what we believe or our history. You can't just make a blanket statement and then ask me to resource it for you. Your articles are NOT primary sources. No scholar would back them as factual. If anyone wants to go find out what primary sources are out there regarding our doctrines or our history, they are there to be found. The church does not hide anything and even gives the differing viewpoints--meaning some look at a primary resource and think one thing and some look at a primary resource and think another.

The truth on this that there are NO first hand witnesses, so everything is hearsay or a second or third-hand account--and even those accounts are vague.

Of course, you are going to find some that infer the worst and then you are going to have others that infer the best.

But for you to come on here and state that you have "facts" and that we put our head in the sand is so off-based as to be similar to Michael Moore expressing how wonderful Cuba's healthcare is. It is slanted information from tainted sources at its best and is sheer propaganda at its worst.

But here ARE the facts. We do have first hand accounts of those who lived and experienced polygamy. There are many testimonies of both to its difficulties as well as its truthfulness and rightness at THAT time.

To me, ultimately, the propaganda you post is the worst type of gossip because the person is no longer around to defend themselves.

And personally, I am not naive enough to believe I can understand the ins and outs of my neighbor's lives, let alone someone who lived 200 years ago.

No it doesn't. You're the one telling us Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored Christianity. But you can't prove that - all you have are the words of a serial adulterer and conman.

[BigJulie]

No it doesn't. You're the one telling us Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored Christianity. But you can't prove that - all you have are the words of a serial adulterer and conman.

Actually, no one can prove a man is a prophet, but the Holy Ghost can testify to the truth of it. Then as one asks in prayer and receives an answer and acts that answer, they will the the proof of the truthfulness in their lives. I have witnessed this and know Joseph Smith is a prophet. All of your gossiping does not change that.

[BigJulie]

No it doesn't. You're the one telling us Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored Christianity. But you can't prove that - all you have are the words of a serial adulterer and conman.

Actually, no one can prove a man is a prophet, but the Holy Ghost can testify to the truth of it. Then as one asks in prayer and receives an answer and acts that answer, they will the the proof of the truthfulness in their lives. I have witnessed this and know Joseph Smith is a prophet. All of your gossiping does not change that.

[BigJulie]

No it doesn't. You're the one telling us Joseph Smith was a true prophet and restored Christianity. But you can't prove that - all you have are the words of a serial adulterer and conman.

Actually, no one can prove a man is a prophet, but the Holy Ghost can testify to the truth of it. Then as one asks in prayer and receives an answer and acts that answer, they will the the proof of the truthfulness in their lives. I have witnessed this and know Joseph Smith is a prophet. All of your gossiping does not change that.