Why should anyone believe

[Christian]

joseph smith's tall tales. After all, before whitewashing of his 'history' by the mormons, joseph smith was shown to be a liar, peepstone gazer, swindler, and a conman. Didn't change much when he 'got religion' either as far as I can see. . .

comments?

[alanmolstad]

Most of the time Joe would convince a young girl to sleep with him by telling her that "God has given you to me"

That story worked a lot of times with the right types of girls.
But there is the account in the record where the normal spiel that Smith would use to bed a female just did not convince her.

In the end, he falls back on the standard idea of a John.....he offered the young girl some cold cash.

$5 bucks...


It kinda shows you what Joe thought of his so-called "wives" in the end......

[BigJulie]

joseph smith's tall tales. After all, before whitewashing of his 'history' by the mormons, joseph smith was shown to be a liar, peepstone gazer, swindler, and a conman. Didn't change much when he 'got religion' either as far as I can see. . .

comments?

Every story has two sides.

The fact of the matter is that men who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and live by the revelations he taught are faithful, good men who honor their wives and God.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.--the proof lies in what we see today.

[DrDavidT]

Every story has two sides.

The fact of the matter is that men who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and live by the revelations he taught are faithful, good men who honor their wives and God.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.--the proof lies in what we see today.

I do not think they believed or thought he was a prophet. I have come to the conclusion that Brigham Young and other prominent early Mormon leaders saw a good thing to exploit and a cash cow. They saw how to hoodwink people and get power and control over them. I have seen little that convinces me otherwise.

[BigJulie]

I do not think they believed or thought he was a prophet. I have come to the conclusion that Brigham Young and other prominent early Mormon leaders saw a good thing to exploit and a cash cow. They saw how to hoodwink people and get power and control over them. I have seen little that convinces me otherwise.

From a Mormon and observing my life compared to lives of my non-Mormon friends---we are not controlled, this is not some type of cash cow. You give your ***hes to your pastor and he lives off of it. We give our ***hes and see how it is spend--back on us in church buildings, temples, education, our well-being. Do you know that after buildings, the second largest budget in the church is education. A group who is trying to "control" as you say, would not spend so much effort on making sure that their members are educated.

"Mormons are significantly more likely than the population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population." Pew Research

[DrDavidT]

From a Mormon and observing my life compared to lives of my non-Mormon friends---we are not controlled, this is not some type of cash cow. You give your ***hes to your pastor and he lives off of it. We give our ***hes and see how it is spend--back on us in church buildings, temples, education, our well-being. Do you know that after buildings, the second largest budget in the church is education. A group who is trying to "control" as you say, would not spend so much effort on making sure that their members are educated.

"Mormons are significantly more likely than the population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population." Pew Research

You obviously have not heard of brainwashing.

[DrDavidT]

You obviously have not heard of brainwashing.

To add to my comment above, the North Koreans 'educate' their people too. This does not mean that the people of North Korea are getting the truth, a real education, or knowledge how to apply that education correctly.

It does mean that the North Korean people are being taught what their government wants them to know, information that props up their despotic regime not undermine it.

[BigJulie]

You obviously have not heard of brainwashing.

You can believe that if you want to; but I suppose you should worry if you have been brainwashed or propagandized.

For someone who has lived it, I have a pretty darn good life--I have a degree, my husband an advanced degree--we live well; my children live well.

And as far the fruits--I have peace, I have married an honorable and faithful husband who works hard in our behalf. I'll take that kind of brainwashing, if that is what you want to call it. ;)

[BigJulie]

To add to my comment above, the North Koreans 'educate' their people too. This does not mean that the people of North Korea are getting the truth, a real education, or knowledge how to apply that education correctly.

It does mean that the North Korean people are being taught what their government wants them to know, information that props up their despotic regime not undermine it.

Ha, you have been brainwashed if you believe this is the type of education we get. Is it hard for you to accept that Mormons are better educated on average? Or that we score higher on knowing the Bible than Christians?

"However, even after controlling for levels of education and other key demographic traits (race, age, gender and region), significant differences in religious knowledge persist among adherents of various faith traditions. Atheists/agnostics, Jews and Mormons still have the highest levels of religious knowledge." Pew Research (but I suppose you believe that Pew has been brainwashed as well to come up with these stats.)

You are actually quite humorous, any other funny comments that have nothing to do with Pew researched reality? :)

[Christian]

Every story has two sides.

The fact of the matter is that men who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and live by the revelations he taught are faithful, good men who honor their wives and God.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.--the proof lies in what we see today.

Let's see now, thousands of folks following a false prophet to hell, MULTIPLE mormonisms (reorganized, temple lot, community of Christ, fundamentalists, and over 145 others. . .I have listed the names, dates, and places before, want them again?. . .EACH of those claiming to be THE ONLY TRUE ONE). SOME FRUIT!

A false prophet who was a womanizer, a letch, and an adulterer, a peepstone gazer, common conman who tried to shoot his way out of jail.

One who taught false gods, a false gospel, and an overall false religion.

Yes, there are men who follow the pope who are faithful, honor their wives and their god.

Yes indeed, WE CAN see his "fruits.' And they are EVIL.

[BigJulie]

Let's see now, thousands of folks following a false prophet to hell, MULTIPLE mormonisms (reorganized, temple lot, community of Christ, fundamentalists, and over 145 others. . .I have listed the names, dates, and places before, want them again?. . .EACH of those claiming to be THE ONLY TRUE ONE). SOME FRUIT!

A false prophet who was a womanizer, a letch, and an adulterer, a peepstone gazer, common conman who tried to shoot his way out of jail.

One who taught false gods, a false gospel, and an overall false religion.

Yes, there are men who follow the pope who are faithful, honor their wives and their god.

Yes indeed, WE CAN see his "fruits.' And they are EVIL.


My husband, who believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and follows his teachings:

1. Has faith in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and does his best to follow the example of Jesus Christ.
2. Was a virgin when we married appreciating that God expects him to be virtuous as well as women.
3. Has worked diligently to be a good provider and protector of his family.
4. Is humble and treats others kindly.

The proof to me is not in your gossip of the past, but in what is real today. If someone made all of the accusations you do about Joseph Smith about my next door neighbor today, I would still have a struggle understanding the truth because it is hard, without a court of law (and sometimes even then it is hard to know) to really know the full story. Yet, you want me to believe that you fully comprehend the character of a man from words of some who loved and some who hated him 200 years ago?

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Do you deny these words of Christ?

[DrDavidT]

For someone who has lived it, I have a pretty darn good life--I have a degree, my husband an advanced degree--we live well; my children live well.

You are not a rare example


Ha, you have been brainwashed if you believe this is the type of education we get. Is it hard for you to accept that Mormons are better educated on average? Or that we score higher on knowing the Bible than Christians?

so do atheists but that doesn't make atheism correct and Christianity wrong. You a have heard of the verse, demons disguise themselves as angels of light haven't you? Instead of your blind devotion to your cult, you would be wise to step back and take a real look at what you believe. For example, where are mormon initiation rites mentioned in the Bible?


Do you deny these words of Christ?

Who says you are the good tree? Mormonism teaches things Jesus and the apostles never taught and Paul cursed such people in Galatians.

[BigJulie]

You are not a rare example Exactly, Mormons are well educated--not brainwashed.




so do atheists but that doesn't make atheism correct and Christianity wrong. You a have heard of the verse, demons disguise themselves as angels of light haven't you? Instead of your blind devotion to your cult, you would be wise to step back and take a real look at what you believe. For example, where are mormon initiation rites mentioned in the Bible?
The point is that Mormons know the Bible better than Christians (and so do atheists) and yet you accuse us of not knowing the Bible; yet not only do Mormons, but also atheists. That little piece of information (not brainwashing) should give you pause in your attacks of others.

Oh, and I have heard of demons disguising themselves as an angel of light--but you can usually detect them by the fact that they only pretend to have "light" but in reality spend their time in the fruits of the flesh such as contention, strife, tearing others down.



Who says you are the good tree? Mormonism teaches things Jesus and the apostles never taught and Paul cursed such people in Galatians. You don't know that, because you don't know the Bible as well as you should. Any one who reads the Bible understands that it is not the authority, but God is. He can do what he wants when he wants. And the proof of the good tree comes from how we live. The more truth you have an live by, the more you have the fruits (off the tree) of the Spirit.

[DrDavidT]

The point is that Mormons know the Bible better than Christians (and so do atheists) and yet you accuse us of not knowing the Bible; yet not only do Mormons, but also atheists. That little piece of information (not brainwashing) should give you pause in your attacks of others.

You may know some of the words of the bible but you are missing the key ingredient in understanding and actually knowing what the Bible says-- see John 16:13


Exactly, Mormons are well educated--not brainwashed.

You missed my point. Being educated does not mean one has the truth. It just means they know a lot of education and that does not include how to apply that information


You don't know that, because you don't know the Bible as well as you should

Your supposed education does not allow you to speak for me nor determine how well I know something.


Any one who reads the Bible understands that it is not the authority, but God is.

Your education has been wasted. The Bible is authoritative meaning that it comes from God and has his authority. God does not violate his word or he would be a hypocrite. You also demonstrate a lack of understanding of the biblical teaching of the word good fruit and how it applies to our lives. The Mormon Church (and its founder) does not possess the truth. if it did it would have a different scripture, one that has a little evidence to support it.

[DrDavidT]

Oh, and I have heard of demons disguising themselves as an angel of light--but you can usually detect them by the fact that they only pretend to have "light" but in reality spend their time in the fruits of the flesh such as contention, strife, tearing others down.

I missed this. You do not know how to detect them and if you knew the Bible as you claim, you would know the correct way to do it. Your arrogance is noted.

[Christian]

Julie posted:

My husband, who believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and follows his teachings:

1. Has faith in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and does his best to follow the example of Jesus Christ.

Joseph smith's 'version' of HIS god (the one of many little gods extant according to smith) and HIS imaginary 'jesus' (the one who is a 'spirit' brother of SATAN. In other words, your husband follows false gods.

2. Was a virgin when we married appreciating that God expects him to be virtuous as well as women.

That's nice. I am happy for you both.

3. Has worked diligently to be a good provider and protector of his family.
4. Is humble and treats others kindly.

Again, that's nice. I was neither a CHRISTIAN nor a virgin when I got married, and I am sorry for both.

The proof to me is not in your gossip of the past, but in what is real today.

Revealing the HISTORY of joe smith is NOT 'gossip of the past,' but is REVEALING THE TRUTH about your so-called 'prophet.

If someone made all of the accusations you do about Joseph Smith about my next door neighbor today, I would still have a struggle understanding the truth because it is hard, without a court of law (and sometimes even then it is hard to know) to really know the full story. Yet, you want me to believe that you fully comprehend the character of a man from words of some who loved and some who hated him 200 years ago?

No, from people who were newspaper reporters, some of whom were likely followers of joe smith, and from mormon documents kept by your religious sect. There is no reason AT ALL for me to believe your modern church's 'revised version' of a whitewashed joe.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Do you deny these words of Christ?

I simply believe what the p***age says. Joe smith leads people to hell, following a false father god and a false christ. What kind of fruit is THAT? It's evil fruit, of course.

Joe smith was sent to jail where he had a gun smuggled in and tried to kill folks with it on the way out. MORE EVIL FRUIT.

Not 'gossip,' but RECORDED HISTORY.

[BigJulie]

You may know some of the words of the bible but you are missing the key ingredient in understanding and actually knowing what the Bible says-- see John 16:13

Actually, it is your group that denies that one can know the spirit by what our heart tells us. John 16:13 speaks exactly to this. Isn't it interesting that Christ teaches that he will teach more by the Spirit? In other words, there was more.




You missed my point. Being educated does not mean one has the truth. It just means they know a lot of education and that does not include how to apply that information Oh, I completely agree. One can be educated and still not wise. The point you made is that we are brainwashed. I stated that this is not the case. You have been propagandized. You are not unlike the Germans who came to see the Jews as the problem. They were not brainwashed, but propagandized into believing something about a religion that was not true.




Your supposed education does not allow you to speak for me nor determine how well I know something.

I am not basing my comments on my education, I am basing it on your obvious lack of understanding of what is in the Bible.




Your education has been wasted. The Bible is authoritative meaning that it comes from God and has his authority. God does not violate his word or he would be a hypocrite. You also demonstrate a lack of understanding of the biblical teaching of the word good fruit and how it applies to our lives. The Mormon Church (and its founder) does not possess the truth. if it did it would have a different scripture, one that has a little evidence to support it.
My education has been wasted? God is the authority, yes. But His Bible is only understood through His spirit. God does not violate his word, but men do which is why they feel to come to a place like this an belittle and put down others--which is the fruit of the flesh. I do not lack an understanding at all of what the good fruit is. You do or you would not feel to put down others.

My church does possess truth. This is why you see the good fruit of the spirit in our lives. And what other church understands the very basis of the Bible and the covenant made to Israel--which is to bring together a family that has been divided through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--or the covenant keeper--the bridegroom, sealing forever those to Him with His Father. The whole Bible is about family--and Christians miss this and then criticize Mormons for getting it.

[BigJulie]

I missed this. You do not know how to detect them and if you knew the Bible as you claim, you would know the correct way to do it. Your arrogance is noted.

Or yours is:

2Co 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In other words, don't look to what they say, but what they do.

The one great lie is it doesn't matter what you do, only what you say. What churches believe this?

[Phoenix]

I missed this. You do not know how to detect them and if you knew the Bible as you claim, you would know the correct way to do it. Your arrogance is noted.

you obviously know nothing about the bible and about Mormons.

[Christian]

Julie posted

Originally Posted by DrDavidT
You are not a rare exampl

Exactly, Mormons are well educated--not brainwashed.

Being 'educated' in mormon doctrine and mormon world-view IS a kind of brainwashing. It is leading you to a prescribed mindset in the same manner as the white supremecists raise and teach their children. They 'educate' them.

The point is that Mormons know the Bible better than Christians (and so do atheists) and yet you accuse us of not knowing the Bible; yet not only do Mormons, but also atheists. That little piece of information (not brainwashing) should give you pause in your attacks of others.

A very small percentage of the mormons may 'know the Bible' better than MANY Christians, but most do not. They know the mormon religion ad its world-view, and even perhaps some of the Bible text (usually RIPPED out of context, of course), but if mormons and atheists (same camp btw) KNEW the Bible, they would be neither mormon OR athiest, of course

Why? The answer is simple. . .

1 Cor 2:13-15 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

Because the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to you you don't receive them; you submit to joe smith's false religion instead.


Oh, and I have heard of demons disguising themselves as an angel of light--but you can usually detect them by the fact that they only pretend to have "light" but in reality spend their time in the fruits of the flesh such as contention, strife, tearing others down.

MY Bible tells me that we can tell them by their FRUITS, such as leading people to hell, false prophets, false gods (your daddy god is only one of MANY so-called 'gods' extant) and false christs (like the one who is prophesied by your 'prophet' to be a 'spirit-brother' of satan. . .

You don't know that, because you don't know the Bible as well as you should.

Of COURSE I don't. . .I have only STUDIED IT DILIGENTLY WITH THE HOLY GHOST for over 55 years now. . .NOT NEARLY AS LONG OR DILIGENTLY AS YOU HAVE. . .:rolleyes:

Any one who reads the Bible understands that it is not the authority, but God is.

Of course, anyone who UNDERSTANDS the Bible understands that the Bible IS authority since it is literally the WORD OF GOD breathed out.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,(in the original-language Greek, literally "BREATHED OUT BY GOD. and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV


SCRIPTURE (THE BIBLE) is enough to make me COMPLETE, and THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for God's Work. And you think YOU can do better?

He can do what he wants when he wants.

Perhaps YOUR god can lie and contradict Himself and go back on his word, but my God, the God of the Bible cannot.

And the proof of the good tree comes from how we live.

Let's see now. . .mormons have a high divorce rate, high rate of ****sexuals, high rate of unwed mothers, and a high rate of being 'jack' mormons (NOT living according to mormon 'standards.'). . .

Lots of SIN there. . .BAD FRUIT

The more truth you have an live by, the more you have the fruits (off the tree) of the Spirit.

Lets see now. . .JUDAS had more of the Truth than YOU DO, just how much fruit of the Spirit did HE HAVE?
Will YOU hang yourself from a tree as he did?

The earliest Christians (such as right after Pentecost) had VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE of Jesus and His teachings, yet they were made PERFECT in the eyes of God (they were forgiven and CLEANSED of every sin in God'S EYES).

But IF you become 'educated' enough (according to the ****sexuals) you will accept ****sexual behavior and 'gay marriage' as an 'acceptable alternate lifestyle.'

Only the HOLY SPIRIT LIVING WITHIN YOU WILL HELP YOU GLORIFY JESUS. Your religious sect won't. Joe smith's fictions won't. READ ROMANS 8:1-11, esp vs 9. TRY to understand what it says.

[Christian]

julie posted:

Or yours is:

2Co 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In other words, don't look to what they say, but what they do.

And when someone worships a false god through a false 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'christ,' their works are to worship falsely, and if they lead others to hell with them, then their end IS according to their works. . .they go to he||

The one great lie is it doesn't matter what you do, only what you say. What churches believe this?

No church I have ever heard of believes this. You cannot name EVEN ONE.
Do you make this junk up as you go?

[Christian]

you obviously know nothing about the bible and about Mormons.

Yah, yah, OBVIOUSLY, nobody knows ANYTHING but you. . .:rolleyes:

Your ignorance and arrogance are showing. . .

Got nothing of SUBSTANCE to offer?

[BigJulie]

And when someone worships a false god through a false 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'christ,' their works are to worship falsely, and if they lead others to hell with them, then their end IS according to their works. . .they go to he||

Yes, this is the one way you can tell when someone is teaching something false--when they believe that you can worship "falsely" and for that God will send you to hell, but on the other hand, do the works of Satan such as lie, steal, cheat (wow, Trump comes to mind here) and people will still look to them for salvation because they say the right thing.


[QUOTE]No church I have ever heard of believes this. You cannot name EVEN ONE.

Calvinism seems to think it is all about being chosen and your behaviors make no difference. That goes so against the teachings of Christ, people should recognize it the leaders as "false prophets."

[DrDavidT]

Actually, it is your group that denies that one can know the spirit by what our heart tells us. John 16:13 speaks exactly to this. Isn't it interesting that Christ teaches that he will teach more by the Spirit? In other words, there was more.

I the words in bold & underlined them for emphasis that are mormon ideology not biblical teaching. The Bible teaches us:

Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the Lord.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

How do you know you are not being deceived and that your heart is telling you the truth?


The point you made is that we are brainwashed. I stated that this is not the case. You have been propagandized. You are not unlike the Germans who came to see the Jews as the problem. They were not brainwashed, but propagandized into believing something about a religion that was not true.

You are great at throwing out baseless accusations. You obviously do not know the correct definitions of the word 'brainwashed'.


I am not basing my comments on my education, I am basing it on your obvious lack of understanding of what is in the Bible.

Had to laugh at one as you keep accusing people they do not understand something when they all can see it is you whom you are talking about.


My church does possess truth

How can it possess the truth when its extra-biblical scriptures teach things contrary to what the Bible teaches? You really should do an honest comparison sometimes.


you obviously know nothing about the bible and about Mormons.

So funny and so wrong. The Mormons only use the Bible to fool those who do not understand that the Mormon church does not follow the Bible but their other scriptures.

[BigJulie]

I the words in bold & underlined them for emphasis that are mormon ideology not biblical teaching. The Bible teaches us:

Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the Lord.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

How do you know you are not being deceived and that your heart is telling you the truth? Love how you stick to the Old Testament, when you can go directly to what Christ teaches:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So, our hearts can turn to the flesh or to God. I know my heart is telling me the truth when I experience the fruits of the spirit rather than the fruits of the flesh.


You are great at throwing out baseless accusations. You obviously do not know the correct definitions of the word 'brainwashed'.

Oh, so your accusations are not baseless. Brainwashed has a very specific meaning when done purposefully. Or were you throwing about just a shallow definition which is baseless?



Had to laugh at one as you keep accusing people they do not understand something when they all can see it is you whom you are talking about.

Oh, and I thought this is what you have been doing. Have you ever answered the question--as I have been waiting, no one has yet that I have seen there two questions:

1. Why does God call his "gods" or wicked rulers as have been explained to me "children of the Most High"?
2. What many things will those rule who are good and faithful servants when they enter into the rest of the Lord?



How can it possess the truth when its extra-biblical scriptures teach things contrary to what the Bible teaches? You really should do an honest comparison sometimes. The point is, it doesn't, but just as the pharisees, you are blind to the truths right in front of you.




So funny and so wrong. The Mormons only use the Bible to fool those who do not understand that the Mormon church does not follow the Bible but their other scriptures. Wait, I thought you found your truth through archaeological findings, are you now back to using the Bible?

[DrDavidT]

well I am done talking with julie. her lack of understanding what the Bible says, her false accusations and he deluded state renders discussion impossible.

[alanmolstad]

well I am done talking with julie. her lack of understanding what the Bible says, her false accusations and he deluded state renders discussion impossible.

there is a way to place names onto your personal IGNORE LIST....it saves time.

[DrDavidT]

there is a way to place names onto your personal IGNORE LIST....it saves time.

Yes I know but thanks. her blanket dismissals, her mocking, her lack of knowledge and understanding just make talking to her a waste of time and I do not know why she has been allowed to remain here long enough to get 8000+ posts.

[BigJulie]

Yes I know but thanks. her blanket dismissals, her mocking, her lack of knowledge and understanding just make talking to her a waste of time and I do not know why she has been allowed to remain here long enough to get 8000+ posts.

Have you ever heard of the saying "the pot calling the kettle black."?

But I have noticed whenever I ask these questions (see post #25)

1. Why does God call his "gods" or wicked rulers as have been explained to me "children of the Most High"?
2. What many things will those rule who are good and faithful servants when they enter into the rest of the Lord?

...is exactly when my critics get offended and stop the conversation. I think you are 4 for 4.

[DrDavidT]

Have you ever heard of the saying "the pot calling the kettle black."?

But I have noticed whenever I ask these questions (see post #25)

1. Why does God call his "gods" or wicked rulers as have been explained to me "children of the Most High"?
2. What many things will those rule who are good and faithful servants when they enter into the rest of the Lord?

...is exactly when my critics get offended and stop the conversation. I think you are 4 for 4.

No you woul dbe wrong. Those questions had nothing to do with my decision but you like deluding yourself...

Those questions are incoherent, illegible and make no sense. Maybe you should rewrite them so others can understand what you are asking

[BigJulie]

No you woul dbe wrong. Those questions had nothing to do with my decision but you like deluding yourself...

Those questions are incoherent, illegible and make no sense. Maybe you should rewrite them so others can understand what you are asking

They are incoherent and make no sense and that is why you choose not to answer. Well, just refer to the scriptures then and explain what they mean.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Now, I have heard a lot of discussion why they are called "gods", but no one has explained why they are called "children of the Most High."

And

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. In this parable, what "many things" will this person be ruler over when he enters in the joy of the Lord?

[BigJulie]

No you woul dbe wrong. Those questions had nothing to do with my decision but you like deluding yourself...

Those questions are incoherent, illegible and make no sense. Maybe you should rewrite them so others can understand what you are asking

They are incoherent and make no sense and that is why you choose not to answer? Well, just refer to the scriptures then and explain what they mean.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Now, I have heard a lot of discussion why they are called "gods", but no one has explained why they are called "children of the Most High."

And

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. In this parable, what "many things" will this person be ruler over when he enters in the joy of the Lord?

[Christian]

big posted:

Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169027#post169027)

And when someone worships a false god through a false 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'christ,' their works are to worship falsely, and if they lead others to hell with them, then their end IS according to their works. . .they go to he||


Yes, this is the one way you can tell when someone is teaching something false--when they believe that you can worship "falsely" and for that God will send you to hell,

Sorry, but it doesn't matter what I believe regarding YOUR eternal life. . .What God has SAID IN SCRIPTURE He HAS SAID, and you can believe whatever you beliefe. . .and STILL GO TO HELL if you believe the gods and 'gospels' of joe smith. The God of the BIBLE has said that if you follow after false gods (like the 'spirit-brother of satan) you will go to HELL You can check THAT out in the BIBLE. . .if you ever choose to read it!

but on the other hand, do the works of Satan such as lie, steal, cheat (wow, Trump comes to mind here) and people will still look to them for salvation because they say the right thing.

Is THAT why you like trump and joe smith???? :rolleyes: Because they both say what YOU WANT TO HEAR?

Calvinism seems to think it is all about being chosen and your behaviors make no difference. That goes so against the teachings of Christ, people should recognize it the leaders as "false prophets."

IF ANYONE EVER ACTUALLY TAUGHT THAT, they would indeed be a 'false prophet,' BUT NOBODY ACTUALLY TEACHES ANY SUCH THING. I think you made that up from your own tiny mind. You cannot produce EVEN ONE 'Calvinist' CHRISTIAN who ever taught such nonsense!

Do you make this junk up as you go?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Christian;169077]
Sorry, but it doesn't matter what I believe regarding YOUR eternal life. . .What God has SAID IN SCRIPTURE He HAS SAID, and you can believe whatever you beliefe. . .and STILL GO TO HELL if you believe the gods and 'gospels' of joe smith. The God of the BIBLE has said that if you follow after false gods (like the 'spirit-brother of satan) you will go to HELL You can check THAT out in the BIBLE. . .if you ever choose to read it! I understand you believe that God will send someone to hell who does not believe correctly. On the other hand, God states that you can know what a person believes by how they behave or a mans heart by how he treats others.

Phl 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Paul went out of his way to teach that you do not share the gospel with anything but charity.



Is THAT why you like trump and joe smith???? :rolleyes: Because they both say what YOU WANT TO HEAR?
No, I won't vote from Trump. He is a vile man. I was thinking more of evangelicals liking him. I am not sure why.



IF ANYONE EVER ACTUALLY TAUGHT THAT, they would indeed be a 'false prophet,' BUT NOBODY ACTUALLY TEACHES ANY SUCH THING. I think you made that up from your own tiny mind. You cannot produce EVEN ONE 'Calvinist' CHRISTIAN who ever taught such nonsense! Oh, you should have seen the arguments of some of the posters in here--they got so heated Jill erased them. But they were basically preaching that once "saved" it doesn't matter what you do.

Here is from one site:

"Unconditional Election." This is the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are ****ed and will spend eternity in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures. God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not.

There is a degree of tension within the Bible concerning precise division of responsibility between God and humans on this matter. The Bible does not resolve this issue.
bullet Hyper-Calvinists believe that a person has zero responsibility for their own salvation; it is all up to God." http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm


Do you make this junk up as you go? See site above, I couldn't make this stuff up if I wanted to.

[Christian]

Julie posted:

I understand you believe that God will send someone to hell who does not believe correctly.

God has NEVER sent anyone to hell for not believing correctly. HE HAS sent people to Hell for SINNING and depending on FALSE gods, FALSE christs and/or FALSE prophets to pay the price for their sins.

Your understanding of CHRISTIAN doctrine is warped by your false gods, false christ, and false prophet.

On the other hand, God states that you can know what a person believes by how they behave or a mans heart by how he treats others.

Phl 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

That p***age has nothing at all to do with how you know believers or non-believers at all. JESUS Said:

Matt 7:16-20
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
NKJV

Not by what YOU THINK the state of their mind is, or what YOU THINK their motives are.


Paul went out of his way to teach that you do not share the gospel with anything but charity.

Then you should be able to LIST A BUNCH OF P***AGES in the Bible that say so. In the meantime you may 'explain' how it was that a) Jesus called certain folks "whitewashed tombs, full of rotting bones. . .' and how it was that Jesus SAT DOWN, BRAIDED A WHIP, then drove people out of the temple. Charity? Perhaps not.

No, I won't vote from Trump. He is a vile man. I was thinking more of evangelicals liking him. I am not sure why.

Most likely because you seem to hate evangelical CHRISTIANS.

Oh, you should have seen the arguments of some of the posters in here--they got so heated Jill erased them. But they were basically preaching that once "saved" it doesn't matter what you do.

Here is from one site:

<snipped> the junk from 'one site.' I could put up a bunch of links to anti-mormon sites too, but I won't.

As for being saved is concerned, just a few BASIC reminders:
a) JESUS saved me, I did not.
b) JESUS is the good shepherd Who keeps me from going astray, I do not
c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not.

I can do anything I want to do. I am a CHRISTIAN and the things I want to do are things that please and serve God.

Where is your problem with that?

[Christian]

big posted:


Originally Posted by DrDavidT http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168940#post168940)
You may know some of the words of the bible but you are missing the key ingredient in understanding and actually knowing what the Bible says-- see John 16:13


Actually, it is your group that denies that one can know the spirit by what our heart tells us. John 16:13 speaks exactly to this. Isn't it interesting that Christ teaches that he will teach more by the Spirit? In other words, there was more.

AND INDEED THERE WAS more. The crucifixion, the resurrection, Christ coming back to them, the ascension, and pentecost for just a few of the things that came later.

Nothing there indicates any 'losing of the church' or need for any 'restoring' of the church later however. ALL of that junk was invented by joey smith.

Oh, I completely agree. One can be educated and still not wise. The point you made is that we are brainwashed. I stated that this is not the case. You have been propagandized. You are not unlike the Germans who came to see the Jews as the problem. They were not brainwashed, but propagandized into believing something about a religion that was not true.

But of course YOU haven't been brainwashed, but propagandized into believing a bunch of FALSE JUNK about historical CHRISTIANITY that is not true. . . :rolleyes: Yah, yah, WE know. . . :rolleyes:

I am not basing my comments on my education, I am basing it on your obvious lack of understanding of what is in the Bible.

So far you have NOT SHOWN that you KNOW what is in the Bible. . .

My education has been wasted? God is the authority, yes. But His Bible is only understood through His spirit. God does not violate his word, but men do which is why they feel to come to a place like this an belittle and put down others--which is the fruit of the flesh. I do not lack an understanding at all of what the good fruit is. You do or you would not feel to put down others.

So Jesus and John the Baptist and Paul produced EVIL FRUIT when they put folks down with 'whitewashed tombs' and 'brood of vipers?'

My church does possess truth.

But it is based on lies.

This is why you see the good fruit of the spirit in our lives.

Leading people to hell, getting them to follow false gods, false christs, false prophets is "good fruit of the spirit?' Naaah.

And what other church understands the very basis of the Bible and the covenant made to Israel--which is to bring together a family that has been divided through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--or the covenant keeper--the bridegroom, sealing forever those to Him with His Father. The whole Bible is about family--and Christians miss this and then criticize Mormons for getting it.

Every CHRISTIAN church recognizes that the mormons DON'T 'get it.' And the Whole Bible is NOT about 'family.' It is about JESUS CHRIST.

Your religion's 'forever family' junk is a FARCE, not Biblical at all.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Christian;169168]

God has NEVER sent anyone to hell for not believing correctly. HE HAS sent people to Hell for SINNING and depending on FALSE gods, FALSE christs and/or FALSE prophets to pay the price for their sins. So, what makes you believe your version of God is correct and mine is wrong?



That p***age has nothing at all to do with how you know believers or non-believers at all. Oh, I thought those who believe in Christ would actually do what he asks. My mistake.

J
ESUS Said:

Matt 7:16-20
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
NKJV Right, so I see the good fruit of my beliefs and also see the bad fruit of how you treat me. That's my point. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that your version of God is the wrong one?



Then you should be able to LIST A BUNCH OF P***AGES in the Bible that say so. In the meantime you may 'explain' how it was that a) Jesus called certain folks "whitewashed tombs, full of rotting bones. . .' and how it was that Jesus SAT DOWN, BRAIDED A WHIP, then drove people out of the temple. Charity? Perhaps not. Well, he called them 'white washed tombs because even though they had the scriptures they misunderstood them and therefore used the "religion" to browbeat other people who were not part of their religion---exactly what you are doing.



Most likely because you seem to hate evangelical CHRISTIANS. What? I just noted that evangelicals are voting for a vile man--and you seem to think that makes me hate christians? Wow.



Here is from one site:

<snipped> the junk from 'one site.' I could put up a bunch of links to anti-mormon sites too, but I won't. This is a Christian site that calls itself religioustolerance.org trying to explain each christian site. I have heard Calvinist make the same argument for themselves.


As for being saved is concerned, just a few BASIC reminders:
a) JESUS saved me, I did not.
b) JESUS is the good shepherd Who keeps me from going astray, I do not
c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not.[B][COLOR=#ff0000] Really? You never sin?


I can do anything I want to do. I am a CHRISTIAN and the things I want to do are things that please and serve God. Explain this. How can you do ANYTHING you want to and always please God? Once again, do you EVER sin?

[Phoenix]

Those questions are incoherent, illegible and make no sense. Maybe you should rewrite them so others can understand what you are asking

I had no problem understanding what she said.

[Christian]

big posted:



Originally Posted by Christian

God has NEVER sent anyone to hell for not believing correctly. HE HAS sent people to Hell for SINNING and depending on FALSE gods, FALSE christs and/or FALSE prophets to pay the price for their sins.

So, what makes you believe your version of God is correct and mine is wrong?

I HAVE NO 'version' of God. I merely accept the only REAL GOD, the GOD OF THE BIBLE. He is the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE EVER. (Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc etc IN THE BIBLE)

YOUR 'version of god' is wrong because it consists of joey smith's INVENTED god, a mere man (one of MANY) who supposedly was 'exalted to godhood' but was 'god for all eternity' and 'never changed' from man to god. Joey's false christ is supposed to be a 'spirit brother of satan.' YOUR gods are frauds, fakes, and the inventions of joey smith and are not real; THAT is what makes YOUR 'version of god' wrong.

big posted:

Phl 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselve

That p***age has nothing at all to do with how you know believers or non-believers at all.


Oh, I thought those who believe in Christ would actually do what he asks. My mistake.

The fact that we who believe in the REAL CHRIST DO do what He asks does NOT make that p***age become a p***age about knowing if you are a believer or non-believer at all. It does NOT 'fix' YOUR MISAPPLICATION OF SCRIPTURE.


Matt 7:16-20
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
NKJV

Right, so I see the good fruit of my beliefs and also see the bad fruit of how you treat me. That's my point. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that your version of God is the wrong one?

Let's see now. . .the 'good fruit' of your beliefs in a false god, a false christ, and a false prophet? NONE AT ALL.

The 'bad fruit of how I treat you? I correct your errors and behave in a CHRISTIAN manner, and YOU think that is 'bad fruit. Sorry, but your judgement is warped by your false religious view.



Then you should be able to LIST A BUNCH OF P***AGES in the Bible that say so. In the meantime you may 'explain' how it was that a) Jesus called certain folks "whitewashed tombs, full of rotting bones. . .' and how it was that Jesus SAT DOWN, BRAIDED A WHIP, then drove people out of the temple. Charity? Perhaps not.

Well, he called them 'white washed tombs because even though they had the scriptures they misunderstood them and therefore used the "religion" to browbeat other people who were not part of their religion---exactly what you are doing.

Your CLAIM was that violence of any kind was bad. I pointed out that Jesus was violent and that He and John the Baptist called folks some pretty 'mean' names at times too. Now you are whining.


Most likely because you seem to hate evangelical CHRISTIANS.


What? I just noted that evangelicals are voting for a vile man--and you seem to think that makes me hate christians? Wow.

EXACTLY WHERE do you pretend I think that makes you hate Christians? I merely noted that you "made" such an observation because YOU DO HATE CHRISTIANS. That was not causitory. OF COURSE some 'way-out' Christians will vote for Trump. So will some mormons and a lot of heathens. That will not MAKE THEM into mormons, heathens OR Chrisians. Your reasoning skills are sadly lacking.



As for being saved is concerned, just a few BASIC reminders:
a) JESUS saved me, I did not.
b) JESUS is the good shepherd Who keeps me from going astray, I do not
c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not.


Really? You never sin?

You draw that knee-**** 'conclusion'. . .HOW?

I do not want to sin. The sins I commit, Jesus forgave about 2,000 years ago.

Explain this. How can you do ANYTHING you want to and always please God? Once again, do you EVER sin?

The same way my children can do ANYTHING THEY WANT (they love me, want to please me), and even when it is WRONG BEHAVIOR, I still love them. Am I always pleased with their behavior? No. Do I always love them? Yes. Do they remain my own children when they '**** it?' Yep. They do.

And when I sin, is God pleased? No, He HATES the sin, but still LOVES ME.

Sorry if YOUR god is a vindictive god.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]
I HAVE NO 'version' of God. I merely accept the only REAL GOD, the GOD OF THE BIBLE. He is the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE EVER. (Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc etc IN THE BIBLE)

You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

The only play you do say "really" is with Isaiah who speaks in metaphors.




The fact that we who believe in the REAL CHRIST DO do what He asks does NOT make that p***age become a p***age about knowing if you are a believer or non-believer at all. It does NOT 'fix' YOUR MISAPPLICATION OF SCRIPTURE.


So once again, your response to the scripture is, well, you can't really know someone's faith by their fruits.




Let's see now. . .the 'good fruit' of your beliefs in a false god, a false christ, and a false prophet? NONE AT ALL.
Actually, the scriptures do not say that is what the fruit of the spirit is or even of the flesh. So, once again--your answer to what the scriptures cons***ute good fruit or bad fruit is not really--you have your own definition.

The 'bad fruit of how I treat you? I correct your errors and behave in a CHRISTIAN manner, and YOU think that is 'bad fruit. Sorry, but your judgement is warped by your false religious view.

No, the way you behave is what the scriptures describe as bad fruit. In fact, bad fruit is described in behaviors.





Your CLAIM was that violence of any kind was bad. I pointed out that Jesus was violent and that He and John the Baptist called folks some pretty 'mean' names at times too. Now you are whining. No, I am not whining, I am pointing out the similarities to how you believe based on believing you have correct understanding of the scriptures and the way the Pharisees did exactly the same thing.




EXACTLY WHERE do you pretend I think that makes you hate Christians? I merely noted that you "made" such an observation because YOU DO HATE CHRISTIANS. That was not causitory. OF COURSE some 'way-out' Christians will vote for Trump. So will some mormons and a lot of heathens. That will not MAKE THEM into mormons, heathens OR Chrisians. Your reasoning skills are sadly lacking.[/COLOR]

Oh, now you know my motives as well. I didn't know I was speaking to a mind reader.

Actually, my original point was that christians tend to think what people say is more important than what they do.. As evangelicals are his main supporter, this made sense to me that they would ignore Trumps bad behavior and support him based on what he says he believes. You have just made this very exact argument above. You were the one who took it on this strange tangent.



Y
You draw that knee-**** 'conclusion'. . .HOW?
Because you said this exact quote: "c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not."


I do not want to sin. The sins I commit, Jesus forgave about 2,000 years ago. Oh, so you stated you do not WANT to sin.




Sorry if YOUR god is a vindictive god. And yet you are the one running around telling others they are going to hell because of what they believe rather than what they do.

[Christian]

big posted:


As for being saved is concerned, just a few BASIC reminders:
a) JESUS saved me, I did not.
b) JESUS is the good shepherd Who keeps me from going astray, I do not
c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not.

You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

The only play you do say "really" is with Isaiah who speaks in metaphors.

Isaiah is speaking 'in metaphors' in 43:10, 44:6, 44:8 etc etc etc? GARBAGE!!! NOBODY seems to agree with your nonsensical claim.

So once again, your response to the scripture is, well, you can't really know someone's faith by their fruits.

Let's see now. . .joey smith's fruits (the one YOU follow) are that he was a liar, a false prophet, a peepstone gazer, treasure seeker, swindler who preached a false gospel, a false 'father god' and a false 'christ' (you STILL cannot deal with the 'brother of satan christ issue), had a gun smuggled into the jail and was killed trying to kill people on the way out. x PRETTY ROTTEN FRUIT.

The God of the Bible on the other hand NEVER lies, leads only REAL prophets, and gave HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO US CHRISTIANS.

Sorry you serve such a corrupt and lying god. "Meaphors indeed!" You REALLY MUST be making all this junk up as you go. . .

Actually, the scriptures do not say that is what the fruit of the spirit is or even of the flesh. So, once again--your answer to what the scriptures cons***ute good fruit or bad fruit is not really--you have your own definition.
No, the way you behave is what the scriptures describe as bad fruit. In fact, bad fruit is described in behaviors.



No, I am not whining, I am pointing out the similarities to how you believe based on believing you have correct understanding of the scriptures and the way the Pharisees did exactly the same thing.



Oh, now you know my motives as well. I didn't know I was speaking to a mind reader.

Actually, my original point was that christians tend to think what people say is more important than what they do.. As evangelicals are his main supporter, this made sense to me that they would ignore Trumps bad behavior and support him based on what he says he believes. You have just made this very exact argument above. You were the one who took it on this strange tangent.



Y Because you said this exact quote: "c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not."
Oh, so you stated you do not WANT to sin.


And yet you are the one running around telling others they are going to hell because of what they believe rather than what they do.[/QUOTE]

[Christian]

big posted:


As for being saved is concerned, just a few BASIC reminders:
a) JESUS saved me, I did not.
b) JESUS is the good shepherd Who keeps me from going astray, I do not
c) IF YOU LOVE JESUS, WOULD YOU want to sin? I do not.

You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

The only play you do say "really" is with Isaiah who speaks in metaphors.

Isaiah is speaking 'in metaphors' in 43:10, 44:6, 44:8 etc etc etc? GARBAGE!!! NOBODY seems to agree with your nonsensical claim.

So once again, your response to the scripture is, well, you can't really know someone's faith by their fruits.

Let's see now. . .joey smith's fruits (the one YOU follow) are that he was a liar, a false prophet, a peepstone gazer, treasure seeker, swindler who preached a false gospel, a false 'father god' and a false 'christ' (you STILL cannot deal with the 'brother of satan christ issue), had a gun smuggled into the jail and was killed trying to kill people on the way out. x PRETTY ROTTEN FRUIT.

The God of the Bible on the other hand NEVER lies, leads only REAL prophets, and gave HIS HOLY SPIRIT TO US CHRISTIANS.

Sorry you serve such a corrupt and lying god. "Meaphors indeed!" You REALLY MUST be making all this junk up as you go. . .

Wife is calling me to dinner. I will try to get back to this later.

[BigJulie]

big posted:



You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God? Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?



Isaiah is speaking 'in metaphors' in 43:10, 44:6, 44:8 etc etc etc? GARBAGE!!! NOBODY seems to agree with your nonsensical claim. Really, then you think this is literal:


And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;

[BigJulie]

big posted:



You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God? Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?



Isaiah is speaking 'in metaphors' in 43:10, 44:6, 44:8 etc etc etc? GARBAGE!!! NOBODY seems to agree with your nonsensical claim. Really, then you think this is literal:


And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;

[Christian]

big posted:


Originally Posted by Christianbig posted:

You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.


Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?


NKJV


I believe EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. . .IT SAYS

Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?

Perhaps YOU think that 'has gotta mene' PHYSICAL image? Please POINT TO THE WORDS THAT SAY SO, THEN EXPLAIN THE FOLLOWING. . .
1) 1 Tim 1:1717 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV (If Genesis 1:26 were talking about a PHYSICAL body, how could He be INVISIBLE? Are YOU invisible?)
2) 1 Tim 6:16
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV {Again, if Genesis 1:26 were referring to a PHYSICAL Body man could be able to SEE IT. Can people SEE YOU?)

3) Col 1:15-1615 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV

4)John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
In REALITY GOD'S 'IMAGE" is a SPIRITUAL IMAGE, NOT A PHYSICAL ONE. God IS SPIRIT, not 'has one,' or 'will get one' BUT IS SPIRIT.

ARE YOU Spirit?

And IS a spirit flesh and bone?

Luke 24:39
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJVAccording to JESUS, a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones. Do YOU have flesh and bones?

So the IMAGE OF GOD does not have flesh and bones; it is SPIRITUAL.

Of course your false prophet joey smith wasn't aware of that. . .

Really, then you think this is literal:

And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;[/QUOTE]

I could not find that p***age anywhere in my Bible, but I DID find this:

1 Sam 13:6
6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in danger (for the people were distressed), then the people hid in caves, in thickets, in rocks, in holes, and in pits.
NKJV

Apparently that sort of thing DID HAPPEN.

Of course, being mormon won't allow you to accept what is WRITTEN in the Bible without trying to "re-define" it to fit your predetermined theology and world view.

OF COURSE Isaiah 'musta bin' speaking in metaphors. . .after all, if he MEANT WHAT HE WROTE HE WOULD BE A LIAR (according to YOUR 'theology' and presuppositions).

[BigJulie]

big posted:



Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?


NKJV


I believe EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. . .IT SAYS

Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?

Perhaps YOU think that 'has gotta mene' PHYSICAL image? Please POINT TO THE WORDS THAT SAY SO, THEN EXPLAIN THE FOLLOWING. . .
1) 1 Tim 1:1717 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV (If Genesis 1:26 were talking about a PHYSICAL body, how could He be INVISIBLE? Are YOU invisible?)
2) 1 Tim 6:16
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV {Again, if Genesis 1:26 were referring to a PHYSICAL Body man could be able to SEE IT. Can people SEE YOU?)

3) Col 1:15-1615 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV

4)John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
In REALITY GOD'S 'IMAGE" is a SPIRITUAL IMAGE, NOT A PHYSICAL ONE. God IS SPIRIT, not 'has one,' or 'will get one' BUT IS SPIRIT.

ARE YOU Spirit?

And IS a spirit flesh and bone?

Luke 24:39
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJVAccording to JESUS, a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones. Do YOU have flesh and bones?

So the IMAGE OF GOD does not have flesh and bones; it is SPIRITUAL.

Of course your false prophet joey smith wasn't aware of that. . .

Really, then you think this is literal:

And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;

I could not find that p***age anywhere in my Bible, but I DID find this:

1 Sam 13:6
6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in danger (for the people were distressed), then the people hid in caves, in thickets, in rocks, in holes, and in pits.
NKJV

Apparently that sort of thing DID HAPPEN.

Of course, being mormon won't allow you to accept what is WRITTEN in the Bible without trying to "re-define" it to fit your predetermined theology and world view.

OF COURSE Isaiah 'musta bin' speaking in metaphors. . .after all, if he MEANT WHAT HE WROTE HE WOULD BE A LIAR (according to YOUR 'theology' and presuppositions).


Okay after your great big long explanation that can be shortened to "yes, but not really"--here is an answer to your first question:


Perhaps YOU think that 'has gotta mene' PHYSICAL image? Please POINT TO THE WORDS THAT SAY SO,


Moses wrote Genesis. Just a few chapters later he stated: Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

He makes it pretty clear what this means unless you think that your child is somehow different than you.


THEN EXPLAIN THE FOLLOWING. . .
1) 1 Tim 1:1717 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV (If Genesis 1:26 were talking about a PHYSICAL body, how could He be INVISIBLE? Are YOU invisible?) God is invisible to us, but he is clearly seen by some.

Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So clearly, he is not invisible to all.


2) 1 Tim 6:16
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV {Again, if Genesis 1:26 were referring to a PHYSICAL Body man could be able to SEE IT. Can people SEE YOU?) See above quote.


3) Col 1:15-1615 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV Once again, invisible to us does not mean invisible to all as taught in the scriptures.

And to make it more clear: Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In other words, Christ is now invisible to you--you have not seen him, but others have.


4)John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Having a spirit does not disqualify someone from having a body. This explanation is being told to a Samaritan women who cannot worship in Jerusalem. Christ is teaching her that she can still worship because God must be worshiped via the spirit.

But clearly, those who are righteous have beheld the Father and Christ at his right hand: Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

[Christian]

big posted:

From a Mormon and observing my life compared to lives of my non-Mormon friends---we are not controlled,

If you are poor and don't pay your ***he, let's see you NOT be controlled and lets see you get your 'temple reccomend. . .' And if you live in one neighborhood, are you free to attend church across town instead of the building across the street from your house? And does NOBODY EVER come over to your house to see exactly how much you earn and give?

Not controlled? Yah, SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE! :rolleyes:

this is not some type of cash cow. You give your ***hes to your pastor and he lives off of it. We give our ***hes and see how it is spend--back on us in church buildings, temples, education, our well-being.

In my congregation (as with MOST Christian evangelical congregations) we have a 'business meeting every quarter, complete with a COMPLETE ACCOUNTING REPORT showing every penny that came in, how it was spent, by whom, and for what, INCLUDING all building expenses, gifts to missionaries, individuals in need, rescue missions, etc etc etc.

DO YOU GET THAT KIND OF ACCOUNTING? From what I have heard from my mormon friends, you do not.

Do you know that after buildings, the second largest budget in the church is education. A group who is trying to "control" as you say, would not spend so much effort on making sure that their members are educated.
And your 'education' is 'church education. . .not REAL education, but indoctrination in your religious beliefs.

"Mormons are significantly more likely than the population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population." Pew Research

And more mormons use pornography than any other religious group!

So what? Is ANY of that junk going to get you ANY CLOSER TO GOD at all?

Naah. . .it's just "my daddy can beat up your daddy" childish argument from you that I needed to respond to.

And WHEN AND WHERE was this 'research' done? Approximately 50% of the general UNSAVED PUBLIC has 'at least some college education. ' That includes CHRISTIAN HOME SCHOOLERS who have even a higher rate than your mormons do. And some of the world's most renowned intellectuals are atheists.

SO WHAT?

Why should anybody believe joe smith's fictions?

[Christian]

'big' posted:

Ha, you have been brainwashed if you believe this is the type of education we get. Is it hard for you to accept that Mormons are better educated on average? Or that we score higher on knowing the Bible than Christians?

According to WHO? YOU? Secular folks who have no CLUE about the BIble but 'score' folks anyway?

Let's see now. . .the education you get from the MORMON churches. . .OH YES, IT IS TO GET YOU TO KNOW MORMON BELIEFS BETTER. THAT is why you set up seminaries across from public schools. . .I have been in them, seen the 'curriculum.' IF they had been run by the Korean government, they would have been swayed towards THAT MINDSET INSTEAD!

"However, even after controlling for levels of education and other key demographic traits (race, age, gender and region), significant differences in religious knowledge persist among adherents of various faith traditions. Atheists/agnostics, Jews and Mormons still have the highest levels of religious knowledge." Pew Research (but I suppose you believe that Pew has been brainwashed as well to come up with these stats.)

Pew also says unmarried pregnancies and ****sexual behaviors are higher in the heavily mormon areas of utah and southern Idaho.

Wanna discuss THOSE things a bit?

You can find 'statistics' to 'prove' anything you want, whether they reflect the Truth or not. After all, Trump (your hero) STILL won the popular vote in most populous states, didn't he? So the SECULAR OPINIONS MUST BE RIGHT, huh?

You are actually quite humorous, any other funny comments that have nothing to do with Pew researched reality? :)[/QUOTE]

Don't you consider the THINGS OF GOD to be reality? Is Pew YOUR 'expert witness?'

[BigJulie]

If you are poor and don't pay your ***he, let's see you NOT be controlled and lets see you get your 'temple reccomend. . .' And if you live in one neighborhood, are you free to attend church across town instead of the building across the street from your house? And does NOBODY EVER come over to your house to see exactly how much you earn and give? Well, being poor does not prevent someone from paying a ***he--just ask the widow who gave her mite. That said, no--no one comes to our house and they never ask how much we earn.


In my congregation (as with MOST Christian evangelical congregations) we have a 'business meeting every quarter, complete with a COMPLETE ACCOUNTING REPORT showing every penny that came in, how it was spent, by whom, and for what, INCLUDING all building expenses, gifts to missionaries, individuals in need, rescue missions, etc etc etc. Okay, so you run your church like a business.


[/COLOR]DO YOU GET THAT KIND OF ACCOUNTING? From what I have heard from my mormon friends, you do not.No, but we have "budgets" that we have control over and spend--even the women.



And your 'education' is 'church education. . .not REAL education, but indoctrination in your religious beliefs. You would never know that by the ***s the graduates are offered. Forbes lists byu as #86 in school rankings (nationwide.)



And more mormons use pornography than any other religious group!
[COLOR=#0000ff] Or at least that is known about because it is not tallied when a person goes to a strip-bar. But yes, we do recognize this as a problem. I never said otherwise.

ANY of that junk going to get you ANY CLOSER TO GOD at all? No, but certainly refutes the ***ertion that we are brainwashed which started this conversation.



[/B][COLOR=#0000ff]And WHEN AND WHERE was this 'research' done? Approximately 50% of the general UNSAVED PUBLIC has 'at least some college education. ' That includes CHRISTIAN HOME SCHOOLERS who have even a higher rate than your mormons do. And some of the world's most renowned intellectuals are atheists.

SO WHAT? It is PEW research. Are you not familiar with this research body? I only bring this up because of the ***ertion that Mormons are brainwashed. Clearly, we are not.

[BigJulie]

[

[You can find 'statistics' to 'prove' anything you want, whether they reflect the Truth or not. After all, Trump (your hero) STILL won the popular vote in most populous states, didn't he? So[/COLOR][SIZE=4][FONT=arial black][I][B] the SECULAR OPINIONS MUST BE RIGHT, huh? I am beginning to believe you do not read my posts. I have never liked Trump and even told you I would not vote for him.



[COLOR=#0000ff]Don't you consider the THINGS OF GOD to be reality? Is Pew YOUR 'expert witness?' You seem to want to go off on this as if my siting Pew meant I do not have faith. I merely sited it to show that research clearly does not agree that Mormons are uneducated or brainwashed.

Christian---I hope some day you can go back and read your posts and see how "unchristian" you sound--you put down, you smirk, you contend. It is only because I have true christian friends I know that you are not representative of the whole.

[BigJulie]

[

[You can find 'statistics' to 'prove' anything you want, whether they reflect the Truth or not. After all, Trump (your hero) STILL won the popular vote in most populous states, didn't he? So[/COLOR][SIZE=4][FONT=arial black][I][B] the SECULAR OPINIONS MUST BE RIGHT, huh? I am beginning to believe you do not read my posts. I have never liked Trump and even told you I would not vote for him.



[COLOR=#0000ff]Don't you consider the THINGS OF GOD to be reality? Is Pew YOUR 'expert witness?' You seem to want to go off on this as if my siting Pew meant I do not have faith. I merely sited it to show that research clearly does not agree that Mormons are uneducated or brainwashed.

Christian---I hope some day you can go back and read your posts and see how "unchristian" you sound--you put down, you smirk, and you contend. It is only because I have true christian friends I know that you are not representative of the whole.

[Christian]

big posted:

Okay, so you run your church like a business.

You indicated YOU KNEW where your religion got and spent its money.

No, but we have "budgets" that we have control over and spend--even the women.

So you have 'budgets.' BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW whether or not your religion is a cash cow for the folks ABOVE your 'budgets.' I seeeeeeeeeeeeee. So your bragging that you knew where the money came from and went in your religion was NOT TRUE AT ALL.

You would never know that by the ***s the graduates are offered. Forbes lists byu as #86 in school rankings (nationwide.)

PROVE IT. CITE where they do so in order that we may CHECK YOUR CLAIM to see if it is false or not.



And more mormons use pornography than any other religious group!

Or at least that is known about because it is not tallied when a person goes to a strip-bar. But yes, we do recognize this as a problem. I never said otherwise.
No, but certainly refutes the ***ertion that we are brainwashed which started this conversation.

FALSE. That is NOT what the OP SAYS it is about.


And WHEN AND WHERE was this 'research' done? Approximately 50% of the general UNSAVED PUBLIC has 'at least some college education. ' That includes CHRISTIAN HOME SCHOOLERS who have even a higher rate than your mormons do. And some of the world's most renowned intellectuals are atheists

It is PEW research. Are you not familiar with this research body? I only bring this up because of the ***ertion that Mormons are brainwashed. Clearly, we are not.

LOTS of CLAIMS FROM YOU, yet no REAL EVIDENCE. I SEEEEEEEEE.

And not 'brainwashed, but CLEARLY "educated/indoctrinated" into the mormon world view, just as the communists and north koreans into THEIR world views.

I have SEEN the mormon 'seminary' curriculums. . .IN THE SEMINARIES, remember? I KNOW what the curriculum is. . .FROM THE SOURCE.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Christian;169318]

You indicated YOU KNEW where your religion got and spent its money. Yes. But our church acts as one cohesive group rather than a bunch of small churches like yours.



So you have 'budgets.' BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW whether or not your religion is a cash cow for the folks ABOVE your 'budgets.' I seeeeeeeeeeeeee. So your bragging that you knew where the money came from and went in your religion was NOT TRUE AT ALL. It is true in that I can see where it is being spent. I am experiencing it. My church uses its ***hes wisely and does very well. This seems to bother other churches, but most churches do not have the amount of temples, church building, universities, seminary buildings, budgets, welfare. You think that the church just makes a lot of money for those in charge---but these are old men (the other criticism a lot of people make) who spend their time traversing the globe (instead of playing golf) to spread the gospel.




PROVE IT. CITE where they do so in order that we may CHECK YOUR CLAIM to see if it is false or not. Gee, I said Forbes--I didn't realize it would be that hard for you to look up.

Here is the site and here is the stats they give: http://www.forbes.com/colleges/brigham-young-university/

#86 Top Colleges
#72 in Private Colleges
#43 in Research Universities
#15 in the West





FALSE. That is NOT what the OP SAYS it is about.[/COLOR] Read the post I responded to.

[Christian]

big posted:


Originally Posted by Christian
You indicated YOU KNEW where your religion got and spent its money.


Yes. But our church acts as one cohesive group rather than a bunch of small churches like yours.


Okay, your religion is a m***ive financial oligarchy. We understand that. But YOU don't know EXACTLY what the money given to YOUR congregation pays, etc.

In other words, YOU DON'T know where your congregation gets and spends its individual moneys. . .NO ACCOUNTING for your m***ive religion's funds

BTW JESUS SAID to enter by the NARROW GATE because FEW folks would be able to find it, so your 'one cohesive group' theory falls into the hole from which it came.

It is true in that I can see where it is being spent. I am experiencing it.


My church uses its ***hes wisely and does very well. This seems to bother other churches, but most churches do not have the amount of temples, church building, universities, seminary buildings, budgets, welfare. You think that the church just makes a lot of money for those in charge---but these are old men (the other criticism a lot of people make) who spend their time traversing the globe (instead of playing golf) to spread the gospel.

But ONLY within the realm of your own little 'budget,' NONE OF THE REST of the rest of the income and spending of your monitary gifts is available to you.

Of course the budget of the MUSLIMS is FAR GREATER THAN YOUR RELIGION's budget. BIG budgets do not impress me. FAITHFULNESS OF CHRISTIANS does.

I <snipped> the Forbes financial page. NO DOUBT your rich old rulers have money to toss around. The rich young ruler in the Bible did too. Unfortunately he couldn't seem to give it up.

Secular FINANCIAL pages do not impress me with the Spirituality of any of your folks.

[dberrie2000]

The Bible is authoritative meaning that it comes from God and has his authority.

Then maybe we should take heed to it's precepts:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Phoenix]

Then maybe we should take heed to it's precepts:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Maybe some people think that it possible to alter the Bible's teachings to the point that "NOT by faith alone" actually means
"YES by faith alone" --- the opposite of what it says.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Christian;169321]




Of course the budget of the MUSLIMS is FAR GREATER THAN YOUR RELIGION's budget. BIG budgets do not impress me. FAITHFULNESS OF CHRISTIANS does.


Not sure why you bring up budgets then. But it does make me wonder if women are allowed to oversee budgets in your small congregation? We women do in the LDS faith--so I am curious if yours does.

[Christian]

big posted:


Not sure why you bring up budgets then. But it does make me wonder if women are allowed to oversee budgets in your small congregation? We women do in the LDS faith--so I am curious if yours does.

I seem to remember that it was YOU who brought up the subject. . .but then I might be mistaken. I was hit from behind in my car on Sa****ay. . .stopped at a light behind a line of other cars when someone hit me at 45 mph and jammed my car into the car ahead of me. Both the p***enger in the car ahead of me and I went to the hospital in ambulances. I am recovering, my only injuries being a bunch of messed up back muscles and a wrecked car that his insurance company is fiddling around evaluating.

The 16 year old kid that owned the car that hit me was the p***enger; his buddy was driving. The driver ran away from the scene of the wreck. . .don't know his status now.

ANYWAY. . .I am okay, praising the Lord that I was in a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee, the headrest was up in the right position and I was wearing a seatbelt.

But the last few days have been a blur of visiting friends, insurance company snafoos, and heating pads/ice packs.

So if my posts aren't EXACTLY their best, I apologize.

As for women and budgets, none are involved with our budgets right now, but I see no reason we couldn't have a woman treasurer. Our Elder board (about 10 men) adjust the budget when required.

We support fully or in part a BUNCH of missionaries all over the world. . .and each item is in the financial report we get every quarter.

And you?

[Christian]

big posted:


Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169218#post169218)
big posted:



You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.


Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?


Already asked multiple times and answered multiple times. God is a Spirit, He is invisible, and He has the characteristics of personhood.

I have a Spirit that is invisible and have the characteristics of personhood too.

Why do you believe the liar joe smith when he pretends God the Father begat millions and millions of 'spirit babies?' HOW MANY 'begotten sons' do YOU believe in?

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?

How do I think Jesus is the ONLY SON FATHERED BY THE FATHER (that IS the meaning of the word 'begotten,' btw). joey smith's theory about God 'begetting' all sorts of 'spirit children' tries to make God out to be a liar.

God's Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she bore God a son.

Really, then you think this is literal:

And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep

There are literal and poetic things in the Bible. I did show you the p***age where they DID do those things. If you choose NOT to believe God, that is up to you.

[Christian]

big posted:


Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169222#post169222)
big posted:



Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?


NKJV


I believe EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. . .IT SAYS

Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?

Perhaps YOU think that 'has gotta mene' PHYSICAL image? Please POINT TO THE WORDS THAT SAY SO, THEN EXPLAIN THE FOLLOWING. . .
1) 1 Tim 1:1717 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV (If Genesis 1:26 were talking about a PHYSICAL body, how could He be INVISIBLE? Are YOU invisible?)
2) 1 Tim 6:16
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see,to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV {Again, if Genesis 1:26 were referring to a PHYSICAL Body man could be able to SEE IT. Can people SEE YOU?)

3) Col 1:15-1615 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV

4)John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
In REALITY GOD'S 'IMAGE" is a SPIRITUAL IMAGE, NOT A PHYSICAL ONE. God IS SPIRIT, not 'has one,' or 'will get one' BUT IS SPIRIT.

ARE YOU Spirit?

And IS a spirit flesh and bone?

Luke 24:39
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJVAccording to JESUS, a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones. Do YOU have flesh and bones?

So the IMAGE OF GOD does not have flesh and bones; it is SPIRITUAL.

Of course your false prophet joey smith wasn't aware of that. . .

Really, then you think this is literal:

And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;

I could not find that p***age anywhere in my Bible, but I DID find this:

1 Sam 13:6
6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in danger (for the people were distressed), then the people hid in caves, in thickets, in rocks, in holes, and in pits.
NKJV

Apparently that sort of thing DID HAPPEN.

Of course, being mormon won't allow you to accept what is WRITTEN in the Bible without trying to "re-define" it to fit your predetermined theology and world view.

OF COURSE Isaiah 'musta bin' speaking in metaphors. . .after all, if he MEANT WHAT HE WROTE HE WOULD BE A LIAR (according to YOUR 'theology' and presuppositions).


Okay after your great big long explanation that can be shortened to "yes, but not really"--here is an answer to your first question


Not by any HONEST person, it could not be shortened that way. Why do you NOT like what GOD HAS SAID IN HIS WORD, THE BIBLE? THAT IS what I showed you, isn't it?

Moses wrote Genesis. Just a few chapters later he stated: Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

He makes it pretty clear what this means unless you think that your child is somehow different than you.

I am not God. Neither are you.

God is invisible to us, but he is clearly seen by some.

Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

You try to make things out to be literal when they are not.

If you have seen me, you have seen my eldest son. If you have seen my eldest son, you have seen me. Literally? Not necessarily; You might have physically SEEN only one of us, but then you will have seen the other "in" the one you physically saw.

How ignorant to not understand something so simple.

So clearly, he is not invisible to all.

See above quote.
Once again, invisible to us does not mean invisible to all as taught in the scriptures.

BY DEFINITION, 'invisible' means NOT ABLE to be seen, NOT JUST NOT THERE.

And to make it more clear: Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In other words, Christ is now invisible to you--you have not seen him, but others have.

Christ is NOT INVISIBLE to me. He is just NOT VISIBLE to me. You seem to be blind to the difference. (does that mean your physical eyes no longer work?. . .UNDERWHELMING!)

Having a spirit does not disqualify someone from having a body.

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV


The Bible does NOT say God HAS a spirit. It says GOD IS SPIRIT

This explanation is being told to a Samaritan women who cannot worship in Jerusalem. Christ is teaching her that she can still worship because God must be worshiped via the spirit.

John 4:24 those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

But clearly, those who are righteous have beheld the Father and Christ at his right hand: Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Have they also seen His BACKSIDE that extends from East to West?

Since God is SPIRIT (John 4:24 above) and a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones, will you call Jesus a liar?

Luke 24:39
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

Sorry, but your (and that of joey smith) theory simply does not float. TOO MANY CONTRADICTIONS between what joey taught you and what GOD SAID.

I'll stick with what GOD HAS SAID. You may follow joey (He is most certainly in Hell now) if you wish. I will pray for your soul.

[BigJulie]

You said:


[QUOTE=Christian;169566]
You try to make things out to be literal when they are not.

Yet, then you say


Sorry, but your (and that of joey smith) theory simply does not float. TOO MANY CONTRADICTIONS between what joey taught you and what GOD SAID.



So which is it? On one hand you state I try to take what God says as literal. On the other hand, you state that there are too many contradictions. The only reason you see contradictions is because I take God to mean what He says.

[Christian]

You said:

[QUOTE]

Yet, then you say



So which is it? On one hand you state I try to take what God says as literal. On the other hand, you state that there are too many contradictions. The only reason you see contradictions is because I take God to mean what He says.

Both. On one hand I point out you take his metaphors, poetry, and figurative language that is NOT meant to be taken literally (like 'if pigs could fly. . .we would have flying bacon to mean that pigs DO fly. . .), yet your theories contradict each other because of YOUR MISUSE OF SHORT PHRASES AND PARTIAL SENTENCES to try to 'justify' your theories.

[BigJulie]

Both. On one hand I point out you take his metaphors, poetry, and figurative language that is NOT meant to be taken literally (like 'if pigs could fly. . .we would have flying bacon to mean that pigs DO fly. . .), yet your theories contradict each other because of YOUR MISUSE OF SHORT PHRASES AND PARTIAL SENTENCES to try to 'justify' your theories.

Except for the fact that you take Isaiah literally who speaks in poetic language --and to do this, you must make every other statement about God as metaphorical. That does not make any sense to me. You say believe what God says and when I do, you say--but not really.

My theories do NOT contradict each other at all--on the other hand, your must and your descriptions become more and more convoluted to the point you just begin to criticize the poster as you cannot explain what you believe in any fashion that anyone would take seriously.

[dberrie2000]

Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?

Genesis 1:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


God is a Spirit, He is invisible, and He has the characteristics of personhood.

So--you don't believe Jesus Christ is God?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Christian--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?