Where is the evidence that mormonism is true? [Archive]

DrDavidT

08-02-2016, 05:56 PM

then speaking of evidence, the supposed reformed egyptian heiroglyphics that Smith said the book of Abraham was written in actually does not exist. There is no such language. On top of that when I say 'textual history', I am also referring to the fact that there is no ancient document recording this religious belief Smith was charged to restore. Not one.

It never existed and nothing in our history points to the fact that it did. So what is Smith trying to rebuild? Nothing but a sexual and financial empire designed to fleece those who are dumb enough to belief Smith's con.

Then we can get into the fact that there is not one piece of physical evidence supporting the book of Mormon. Not one and this comes from Mormon archaeologists.

There is not even one shred of evidence for the great battle Smith said took place in the new World.

So pony up Mormon believers where is any tidbit of physical information substantiated one thing Smith claimed?

BigJulie

08-02-2016, 10:22 PM

so no evidence how sad. You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you? Not one church father spoke about it, not one ancient historian both secular and religious mentioned this religious belief and so on.

without a textual history you have nothing and simply adds support that Smith made it all up.

Oh, so once again--you do not believe in faith, but scientific evidence. Well, I am sure the athiests could have a field day with you with all of their "evidence". :)

Oh, they did speak about it--you are just missing it. Not unlike the Pharisees missing the prophecies about Christ. Just like you, they did not see what was plainly there.

BigJulie

08-02-2016, 10:24 PM

DrDavidT

08-03-2016, 12:36 AM

Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

Really sad you do not understand faith.

And if it was there you would easily be able to point to it and say 'see'. But you don't because it isn't and it does not exist.

DrDavidT

08-03-2016, 12:39 AM

Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

Really sad you do not understand faith.

I understand faith alright it is you who do not.You also seem to believe in a god that leaves you without anything to strengthen your faith and defend your beliefs

BigJulie

08-03-2016, 07:01 AM

I understand faith alright it is you who do not.You also seem to believe in a god that leaves you without anything to strengthen your faith and defend your beliefs

Well, first lets say that saying a town existed or a language existed does not prove the Bible true. In fact, as I said there are many atheist detractors that would give you the same challenge. I won't go there.

But let me explain my "proof" as you call it (and as Christ calls it).

The way God proves something is not like the world proves something. The world uses science, God uses the Spirit.

So my proof comes in these steps:

1. Have a desire to know the truth and believe God answers prayers.
2. Study God's words and message and pray and ask for an answer.
3. Receive an answer via the Holy Ghost.
4. Live by the answer you receive.
5. See the "fruits" of the answer you receive which includes peace, joy, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness and faith.

DrDavidT

08-04-2016, 02:54 AM

Well, first lets say that saying a town existed or a language existed does not prove the Bible true. In fact, as I said there are many atheist detractors that would give you the same challenge. I won't go there.

But let me explain my "proof" as you call it (and as Christ calls it).

The way God proves something is not like the world proves something. The world uses science, God uses the Spirit.

So my proof comes in these steps:

1. Have a desire to know the truth and believe God answers prayers.
2. Study God's words and message and pray and ask for an answer.
3. Receive an answer via the Holy Ghost.
4. Live by the answer you receive.
5. See the "fruits" of the answer you receive which includes peace, joy, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness and faith.

how do you double check to make sure you are not being deceived?
how do you double check to make sure you are hearing form the HS given the biblical warning that demons disguise themselves as angels of light?
I know a lot of peaceful, joyful, longsuffering, gentle, etc., unbelievers so that is not a good criteria to use.

your blind faith leaves you vulnerable to lies and deception

DrDavidT

08-04-2016, 03:02 AM

and do people notice that NO evidence is offered by a Mormon for any of those things? At least with the Bible we can point to physical artifacts, cities, and other discoveries that support and prove the Bible.

The book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures were written in the 19th century with a couple of them edited throughout the years but there is no ancient document providing any textual history for those words. There is NO God or god declaring that there is none like him and these are his words to be followed, only Smith and a few others speak for him unlike the bible which does have God speaking for himself and laying down the law.

The same goes for the quran.

The Bible enjoys a rich textual history, over 5000 for the NT alone, which provides verification that we have God's actual words, the book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures do not enjoy this support.

The book of Mormon and the other mormon scriptures were basically written/translated by 1 man operating stones. The bible has approx. 40 different authors written over a span of 1500 years who were led by God to write and did not need stones to translate from some imaginary language. We can go to ancient m****cripts to double check translators work and do that double checking from the original languages.

No one can go to the golden plates or use the stones to double check Smith and his cronies.

BigJulie

08-04-2016, 01:21 PM

how do you double check to make sure you are not being deceived? By the outcome of my actions.

how do you double check to make sure you are hearing form the HS given the biblical warning that demons disguise themselves as angels of light? By the outcomes we learn to discern between the Holy Ghost and anything else. This is what we are here to do---learn to recognize the spirit and the difference between love and lust, love and strife, peace versus contention, joy versus misery.

It is also through the Holy Ghost we discern the meaning of scriptures so we are not mislead (such as the Pharisees were) in our readings.

How do you double-check that you are not wrong? See above.

I know a lot of peaceful, joyful, longsuffering, gentle, etc., unbelievers so that is not a good criteria to use. You will find that these "peace-ful joyful longsuffering non-believers believe in something that Christ taught and are living by it. Every truth has an outcome ***ociated with it. Honesty brings peace. Having patience brings long-suffering. Christ recognizes the source of truth lies with Him even if they do not. So, the trick is having a "fullness" of the truth. Many people have parts of the truth and find happiness in living by it. But any part of untruth that they live by, they will experience the negative fruits. Hopefully, this will help them seek for more truth.

your blind faith leaves you vulnerable to lies and deception It is not blind at all. I would hate to ever tell a person to ignore what they feel. Guilt is a feeling. Love is a feeling. Hate is a feeling. It is when we become past feelings and think that our brains should over-ride our spirits, we are in trouble.

Let me give you an example. There are three possible sources of truth: 1) Science 2) Other people's testimonies and 3) the Holy Ghost. The Bible is a grouping of testimonies of God and of Jesus Christ. However, not all people read it the same and so there are disagreements.

So, let's say that there is a women who has an unwanted pregnancy.

If she relies only on science, she may decide that baby is a viable human or a blob of cells depending on which research she reads and believes.
Is she relies only on testimony, she may listen to the advice of others who have had an abortion or she may rely on the scriptures which tells us that murder is wrong.

However if she relies on the Holy Ghost, she will be able to discern which science and which testimony she should rely on. She then has more than one witness as to what is right.

You seem to think the first two are more important and should over-ride the Holy Ghost because you seem to think we are too easily deceived. I on the other hand think that the Holy Ghost is the most reliable witness as God works with us to recognize the Holy Ghost through the outcomes we experience.

Hence the scripture:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God knows that he wants us to turn to Him and experience Him with our eyes, our ears and our hearts.

BigJulie

08-04-2016, 01:22 PM

Radix

08-04-2016, 04:54 PM

Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

Really sad you do not understand faith.

Are you OK with a blind faith?

You have to trust Joseph Smith for Nephites, Jaredites and Lamanites.
You have to trust Smith with "Reformed Egyptian."
You have to trust Smith first century Christians actually practiced Mormonism.
You have to trust Smith could really translate Egyptian as claimed in the Pearl of Great Price.
You have to trust Smith he was used to restore authority.
You have to trust Smith when he said he had only one wife.
You have to trust Smith when he saw an angel, no Jesus, no Jesus and the father in the first vision.
You have to trust Smith that a feeling is a sign of truth.

Jer 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

BigJulie

08-04-2016, 05:14 PM

Are you OK with a blind faith?

You have to trust Joseph Smith for Nephites, Jaredites and Lamanites.
You have to trust Smith with "Reformed Egyptian."
You have to trust Smith first century Christians actually practiced Mormonism.
You have to trust Smith could really translate Egyptian as claimed in the Pearl of Great Price.
You have to trust Smith he was used to restore authority.
You have to trust Smith when he said he had only one wife.
You have to trust Smith when he saw an angel, no Jesus, no Jesus and the father in the first vision.
You have to trust Smith that a feeling is a sign of truth.

Jer 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

And talking about feelings---when do you ever not teach your children that part of spirituality is learning to discern the feeling of the spirit versus the feeling of flesh? I just can't even imagine living in which I have to trust everyone else because I cannot trust that God can and will answer my prayers. Once you learn to recognize the spirit, I can't imagine living any other way.

It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.

Btw, interesting that you should quote a scripture that speaks to God giving according to a person's deeds. I thought most Christians did not believe in that.

DrDavidT

08-04-2016, 06:52 PM

By the outcome of my actions.

what criteria do you use to determine if the outcome of your actions is correct? The mormons disallowed blacks for decades and they saw that outcome as good, then they suddenly changed so what criteria is being used to determine if an outcome is good or not? The Bibe never teaches racism or excluding lacks form anywhere so you cannot point to any verse in the Bible to support your point.

It is also through the Holy Ghost we discern the meaning of scriptures so we are not mislead (such as the Pharisees were) in our readings.

How do you know that you have the truth and are actually following the HS? What criteria do you use and the fruit of the spirit are not rules to determine if you have the truth or not. Jesus didn't teach that they were. What biblical basis do you have for using the fruit of the spirit and outcomes as your guide?

Since Mormon initiation rights are not biblically taught nor part of the fruits of the spirit how do you justify in using them in your ceremonies to induct new members into the temple?

It is not blind at all. I would hate to ever tell a person to ignore what they feel. Guilt is a feeling. Love is a feeling. Hate is a feeling. It is when we become past feelings and think that our brains should over-ride our spirits, we are in trouble.

That means absolutely nothing. Emotions are subjective and cannot be trusted to guide us in anything.

Let me give you an example. There are three possible sources of truth: 1) Science 2) Other people's testimonies and 3) the Holy Ghost. The Bible is a grouping of testimonies of God and of Jesus Christ. However, not all people read it the same and so there are disagreements.

# 1 & 2 are completely wrong. The Holy Spirit is God so it knows the truth and how to guide us to it but as Jesus prayed to his father, lead them to your truth, so the the source of truth is God. No they are not groupings of testimonies, they are revelations, teachings, commands, historical information and so on. So you believe Christianity is existential where the Bible says one thing to one person and something else to another. That is not leading people to the truth but confusion which is not of God.

So, let's say that there is a women who has an unwanted pregnancy.

If she relies only on science, she may decide that baby is a viable human or a blob of cells depending on which research she reads and believes.
Is she relies only on testimony, she may listen to the advice of others who have had an abortion or she may rely on the scriptures which tells us that murder is wrong.

That doesn't provide an example of anything except to point out how misguided you are and that you do not know truth or where to find it.

As you can see from your Post #12, you rely heavily on method 1 and 2 and less on the Holy Ghost, but the Bible teaches the exact opposite of that.

Again you demonstrate that you do not know anything nor what i do or believe. You ***ume those things and place your own ideas upon my words but you are so far off that you prove you do not know what you are talking about.

DrDavidT

08-04-2016, 06:55 PM

It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.

In other words you will ignore the checks and balances that God provides to help us make sure we are on the right path and you will continue to willfully be deceived.

The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

You or the Mormon church refines the word 'fruits' in order to remain deceived and locked in sin.

Saint Grogan

08-04-2016, 09:49 PM

Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

And talking about feelings---when do you ever not teach your children that part of spirituality is learning to discern the feeling of the spirit versus the feeling of flesh? I just can't even imagine living in which I have to trust everyone else because I cannot trust that God can and will answer my prayers. Once you learn to recognize the spirit, I can't imagine living any other way.

It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.

Btw, interesting that you should quote a scripture that speaks to God giving according to a person's deeds. I thought most Christians did not believe in that.

I would have to ask, is it possible to be lead by another spirit, an inspiration that is not the Spirit of God?

"For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:4)

There are many in other religions who claim it is the Spirt of God that has changed and now guides their lives. Even the 12 step rehabilitation programs encourage it's participants to appeal to a "higher power" in helping them get their lives under control. What makes you think that your experience is any different than theirs?

Radix

08-05-2016, 04:33 PM

Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

Really. Is that what you think of yourself when you see Smith's translation of the Egyptian in the Facsimiles? In reality, that is as tight shut as one can get their eyes.

The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.
Is it really "pure" when you just swallow such a bold face lie as Smth's false "translation."

And talking about feelings---when do you ever not teach your children that part of spirituality is learning to discern the feeling of the spirit versus the feeling of flesh? I just can't even imagine living in which I have to trust everyone else because I cannot trust that God can and will answer my prayers. Once you learn to recognize the spirit, I can't imagine living any other way.

I taught my kids to discern truth which in the end does not depend on feelings. Satan loves the realm of feelings and is he smarter than you or I. He understands manipulating with feelings more than we can.

I
t is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.
I did not become a Christian until well into college. Even as an agnostic I saw no reason to cave in to drugs, sex and cheating. Fortunately alcohol was never an issue for me. Was God watching over me during those times, certainly He was. but I saw no reason to acknowledge Him at that point. One does not need to "feel" the spirit in order to behave well.
Being "good" in the sight of others is often something we lean on when we do not have ***urance of salvation. Somehow we like to think we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross. What He did justified me. I cannot be any more saved by anything that I do. Now I do enjoy serving and being with Him, but not because I expect some holy merit badge. Anything I earn gets laid back at His feet because it really came from Him to begin with.

Now I did not say anything about Nephi. I did bring up the Nephites and several other topics which you find excuses to avoid dealing with. Does that really sound pure to turn your back and pretend there are not issues?

Btw, interesting that you should quote a scripture that speaks to God giving according to a person's deeds. I thought most Christians did not believe in that.
God expects you to use your mind. There are reasons He provided it. If one refuses to use their mind, then that person is never really honest with their self.

BigJulie

08-05-2016, 05:53 PM

[QUOTE=Radix;169320]

I did not become a Christian until well into college. Even as an agnostic I saw no reason to cave in to drugs, sex and cheating. Fortunately alcohol was never an issue for me. Was God watching over me during those times, certainly He was. but I saw no reason to acknowledge Him at that point. One does not need to "feel" the spirit in order to behave well.
Being "good" in the sight of others is often something we lean on when we do not have ***urance of salvation. Somehow we like to think we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross. What He did justified me. I cannot be any more saved by anything that I do. Now I do enjoy serving and being with Him, but not because I expect some holy merit badge. Anything I earn gets laid back at His feet because it really came from Him to begin with. Did you belong to any religion at all in your youth? If so, which one?

DrDavidT

08-06-2016, 12:18 AM

Let's get back on topic: Where is the evidence?

Recently the Mormon church released the stones or the photos of the stones supposedly used by Smith in his translation as if their existence were actual evidence for anything. The Mormon problem is, they were just stones, any stones, not one prophet or elder took them up and showed that they actually worked. All the release did was to undermine their claims because there was no way to verify those stones were actually used by Smith and that they could actually help translate anything.

You need to be really brainwashed to accept those stones as valid and used by Smith.

Christian

08-06-2016, 06:57 AM

'big' posted:

Originally Posted by DrDavidT
I will list the topics that need evidence:

the angel moroni

the golden tablets

the book of mormon

any claim made by smith

that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

I would say the Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit, but I know you don't believe in that type of witness, but prefer archaeological findings or other things that have little to do with faith.

In other words, you HAVE NO EVIDENCE in reality. The Holy Ghost bore witness to ME that the bom was false, joe smith was fraud and conman, and his junk was anti-biblical, violating what GOD HAD ALREADY SAID.

I have PLENTY OF FAITH in Jesus Christ. It is in the fraud joey smith that I have no faith.

I KNOW GOD through His Word (the BIBLE) and by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in my own life, and by the FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT that has been predominent in my own life for over 40 years now.

Joey smith and his made up gods and false religion have nothing to do with it. FAITH IN JESUS does.

Phoenix

08-06-2016, 06:02 PM

?....Where is the evidence?

Recently the Mormon church released the stones.....All the release did was to undermine their claims because there was no way to verify those stones were actually used by Smith and that they could actually help translate anything.
you seem to have really strong feelings about evidence and stones.

So apparently you feel that the stone tablets allegedly containing the 10 commandments, written by god's finger as mentioned in the bible, never actually existed. You seem to follow the atheist / humanist motto "Unless I actually see it, I should conclude that it never existed because nothing else is evidence."

You need to be really brainwashed to accept those stones as valid and used by Smith.
Do you also need to be really brainwashed to accept the claim that the stones with commandments written on them, that Moses was given, ever really existed?

As you said, where is the evidence?

DrDavidT

08-06-2016, 08:29 PM

you seem to have really strong feelings about evidence and stones.

So apparently you feel that the stone tablets allegedly containing the 10 commandments, written by god's finger as mentioned in the bible, never actually existed. You seem to follow the atheist / humanist motto "Unless I actually see it, I should conclude that it never existed because nothing else is evidence."

Do you also need to be really brainwashed to accept the claim that the stones with commandments written on them, that Moses was given, ever really existed?

As you said, where is the evidence?

Your argument fails on several accounts. First we have the ten commandments and we can read what they say. We do not have to have the stone tablets. Second, the Mormons claim to have the actual stones Smith used, yet they cannot demonstrate that they actually work like Smith claims. Third, if we had the actual stone tablets and produced them, the writings would have to match the words God gave Moses BUT we do not claim we have the tablets, we claim and produce the actual 10 commandments which are far more important than the actual stone tablets written on by God.

Fourth, the Mormons do not have the golden tablets thus they cannot produce the source for the book of Mormon or any Mormon scripture nor show how the stones translated the p***ages Smith supposedly translated. In other words, the Mormons have nothing to hang their faith upon. Fifth, your accusation is misdirected and false and not worth re****ing as you use it to distract from the fact that you believe something without real evidence showing it is true. All you are doing is following Smith's 'take my word for it' mandate.

DrDavidT

08-06-2016, 08:35 PM

P.S. I also need to point out that it is Smith's word and Smith's alone that states he is a 'prophet' of God and that his mission is to restore the old faith. There is NO document written prior to Smith's existence telling anyone that Smith is going to be a prophet with a restoration mission. There is nothing alluding to any prophet coming later than Jesus.

What this means is that Mormons are taking the word of a man who is a known thief, criminal, con man without any support from any religious writing from anywhere in the world. Not even from those mythological Mormon nations who fought each other. ZILCH from them as they left no writings, no inscriptions nothing to indicate a prophet is coming let alone that they existed at all.

Smith is a self-proclaimed prophet and the Bible says a man's own testimony is not true. So now you have to square biblical teaching that contradicts your 'prophet's own testimony' with your supposed faith. If you believe and follow the Bible then you cannot accept Smith's testimony about himself.

Radix

08-06-2016, 09:30 PM

[QUOTE] Did you belong to any religion at all in your youth? If so, which one?

I was not raised into any faith but atheism. My senior year of high school I took an anatomy and physiology course where what may be called the ontological argument helped change me to theism. But during the time I became a Christian I lived in a home that looked down upon religion as a whole. Both my parents had bad experiences concerning churches they were ***ociated with. When I first went to church during college, becoming a Christian was not what I was seeking. One thing I sought to be consistent with was being honest to myself.

The lack of consistency with Mormonism is why I could never be LDS. We accept the translation of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. But in Mormonism you reject the translation of Egyptian. Then have to accept the idea of a language that outside of Joseph Smith no one has any evidence of. I have recently listed other inconsistencies as well. Pretty much everything about Mormonism rests on the shoulders of Joseph Smith. God has made it obvious to me Smith was a false teacher.

BigJulie

08-07-2016, 07:12 AM

[QUOTE=BigJulie;169323]

I was not raised into any faith but atheism. My senior year of high school I took an anatomy and physiology course where what may be called the ontological argument helped change me to theism. But during the time I became a Christian I lived in a home that looked down upon religion as a whole. Both my parents had bad experiences concerning churches they were ***ociated with. When I first went to church during college, becoming a Christian was not what I was seeking. One thing I sought to be consistent with was being honest to myself.

Thank you for letting me know how you were raised, but I was asking Radix.

BigJulie

08-07-2016, 07:12 AM

I was not raised into any faith but atheism. My senior year of high school I took an anatomy and physiology course where what may be called the ontological argument helped change me to theism. But during the time I became a Christian I lived in a home that looked down upon religion as a whole. Both my parents had bad experiences concerning churches they were ***ociated with. When I first went to church during college, becoming a Christian was not what I was seeking. One thing I sought to be consistent with was being honest to myself.

Thank you for letting me know how you were raised, but I was asking Radix.

Erundur

08-07-2016, 01:22 PM

Fourth, the Mormons do not have the golden tablets thus they cannot produce the source for the book of Mormon or any Mormon scripture nor show how the stones translated the p***ages Smith supposedly translated.
But wait--we have the Book of Mormon and we can read what it says. We do not have to have the golden plates, right? We do not claim to have the plates, we claim and produce the actual Book of Mormon which is far more important than the actual golden plates written on by prophets of God.

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 04:03 PM

But wait--we have the Book of Mormon and we can read what it says. We do not have to have the golden plates, right? We do not claim to have the plates, we claim and produce the actual Book of Mormon which is far more important than the actual golden plates written on by prophets of God.

How do you know Smith got it right? How do you know Smith did not change anything? How do you make sure people have not fudged some details in between Smith's translation and now?

With the Bible we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Silver Scroll, and mss. dating back to the early 2nd century where we can double check to make sure other translators have not erred. You have nothing to verify anything. You simply present the book of Mormon not knowing if there are errors or not.

That is a dangerous way to live.

The book of Mormon cannot be more important than the golden plates for it is a mere English version of the original. It is supposed to be a copy only and if it i smore important then you are saying you have no foundation for your faith.

Christian

08-07-2016, 04:30 PM

phoenix posted:

you seem to have really strong feelings about evidence and stones.

He's not asking about 'feelings.' He is asking about REALITY. Your 'feelings' are easily misled by suggestion, too much supper, and other things.

He merely pointed out that the supposed "stones evidence" that they presented were not really evidence of ANYTHING except that they had some 'STONES.' Not that they ever 'translated' anything OR that they were even the same rocks that joe smith stuck in his hat to find treasure or 'translate' the book of mormon. They were just. . .STONES.

So apparently you feel that the stone tablets allegedly containing the 10 commandments, written by god's finger as mentioned in the bible, never actually existed.

Do you make this horse-pucky up as you go? It seems that you do.

You seem to follow the atheist / humanist motto "Unless I actually see it, I should conclude that it never existed because nothing else is evidence."

Nobody is known to believe any idiotic thing like that except YOU. But then YOU think that a 'tummy tug' is God speaking. . .

joey smith made up a bunch of imaginary junk, you believe it to be real, but the reality is there is STILL NO EVIDENCE (and YOU HAVE STILL NOT PROVIDED ANY EVIDENCE) that ANY of his imaginary junk ever existed in REALITY.

Not 'reformed egyptian'
not 'nephites'not ONE SINGLE THING HE INVENTED IN HIS BOM.

joey made claims. No evidence at all substantiates them. WHY should anyone believe him?

Christian

08-07-2016, 04:33 PM

Radix

08-07-2016, 04:42 PM

Thank you for letting me know how you were raised, but I was asking Radix.

This is Radix.

Erundur

08-07-2016, 05:41 PM

How do you know Smith got it right? How do you know Smith did not change anything? How do you make sure people have not fudged some details in between Smith's translation and now?
Probably the same way you know Moses got it right.

The book of Mormon cannot be more important than the golden plates for it is a mere English version of the original. It is supposed to be a copy only and if it i smore important then you are saying you have no foundation for your faith.
Hmm, sort of like the Bible.

Erundur

08-07-2016, 05:42 PM

You have the book of fiction joe smith wrote. There is NOTHING TO SUBSTANTIATE that any of it was ever on any 'golden plates' in 'reformed egyptian' or that such a language EVER EXISTED IN RIAL LIFE.
That's false.

BigJulie

08-07-2016, 06:03 PM

This is Radix.

Oh, sorry---I thought it was Dr. David T who answered. Not sure how I saw that.

So you were raised as an atheist?

BigJulie

08-07-2016, 06:03 PM

This is Radix.

Oh, sorry---I thought it was Dr. David T who answered. Not sure how I saw that.

So you were raised as an atheist?

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 06:17 PM

Probably the same way you know Moses got it right.

Hmm, sort of like the Bible.

We have a m****cript record from ancient times in the original languages which anyone can learn and translate to see that Moses got it right.

The Mormons do not and cannot study the golden plates -- no one can. and since Smith did not write the golden plates his work needs to be double checked or are you conferring infallible status upon Smith?

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 06:21 PM

That's false.

prove it. produce the golden plates and the original language so everyone can learn it and study to see if it is tru eor not.

Erundur

08-07-2016, 06:22 PM

The Mormons do not and cannot study the golden plates -- no one can.
No one can study the stone tablets either, but you come up with all kinds of excuses why we don't need to. Double standard.

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 06:23 PM

No one can study the stone tablets either, but you come up with all kinds of excuses why we don't need to. Double standard.

find the ark you will find the stone tablets.

no double standard. you have no textual record prior to Smith so you have nothing

Erundur

08-07-2016, 06:24 PM

prove it. produce the golden plates and the original language so everyone can learn it and study to see if it is tru eor not.
As soon as you produce the stone tablets, come talk to me.

Erundur

08-07-2016, 06:25 PM

find the ark you will find the stone tablets.
Then produce the ark.

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 06:31 PM

As soon as you produce the stone tablets, come talk to me.

ha ha ha. a wonderful example of being willfully deceived. you blindly trust a con man, a fallible, sinful, human being and refuse to think about your situation and how bad it is.

The difference is, we do not claim that the 10 commandments come form Moses and the stone tablets, we say that God wrote them and God is accessible at any time and we have a record of his involvement throughout history and the lives of individual people. We know the Bible is true

We have evidence backing up our testimony as well-- you have NOTHING and refuse to present anything that supports your blind faith. That is just being deceived and unintelligent, as well as brainwashed.

The ***le of this thread is WHERE is the EVIDENCE... and you cannot point to one thing as evidence for why you believe. You cannot support one claim Smith made and that fact should be troubling to you. You are following and honoring a man who lied to his followers.

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 06:41 PM

Then produce the ark.

ha ha ha we do not need to, as I said, we have a rich textual history informing us of God's words. We do not need the ark anymore because of Christ's work.

Your failure to provide one shred of evidence makes your Mormon faith false and cultic. Your dancing around the issues and making unrealistic demands only shows the depth of your deception.

Outside of Smith's claims that there were golden plates, there is no historical reference to them or this so called true faith so until you have them all you have is th eword of a known liar.

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 06:44 PM

Erundur

08-07-2016, 06:52 PM

ha ha ha. a wonderful example of being willfully deceived.
Well, since you've resorted to personal insults, that sounds like a concession to me.

you blindly trust a con man, a fallible, sinful, human being and refuse to think about your situation and how bad it is.
False.

The difference is, we do not claim that the 10 commandments come form Moses and the stone tablets, we say that God wrote them and God is accessible at any time and we have a record of his involvement throughout history and the lives of individual people. We know the Bible is true
So do we. We also know the Book of Mormon is true.

We have evidence backing up our testimony as well-- you have NOTHING and refuse to present anything that supports your blind faith.
That's because I don't have blind faith! Duh!

The ***le of this thread is WHERE is the EVIDENCE... and you cannot point to one thing as evidence for why you believe.
Only partially true. I cannot point to any evidence that you would accept. Big difference.

Erundur

08-07-2016, 06:59 PM

ha ha ha we do not need to, as I said, we have a rich textual history informing us of God's words. We do not need the ark anymore because of Christ's work.
Just like we don't need the plates anymore because of Christ's work. Does your failure to provide one shred of evidence make your Protestant faith false and cultic? Does your dancing around the issues and making unrealistic demands only show the depth of your deception?

Outside of Smith's claims that there were golden plates, there is no historical reference to them or this so called true faith
Your statement is objectively false. At least eleven others saw the plates, and their testimony must be considered a historical reference by all rational people.

so until you have them all you have is th eword of a known liar.
Worthless anti-Mormon slander.

DrDavidT

08-07-2016, 08:36 PM

you blindly trust a con man, a fallible, sinful, human being and refuse to think about your situation and how bad it is.
False.

So you are saying Smith was infallible, holy, perfect and not human? Then why was he in jail for criminal acts? Jesus wasn't.

So do we. We also know the Book of Mormon is true.

HOW? You cannot produce one piece of evidence to support it. Even when asked. So how do you know and what evidence do you have?

That's because I don't have blind faith! Duh!

From everything you have said, you do. You cannot even point to one piece if physical evidence to support your claims. Where are the two civilizations and all the animals as described by Smith in the book of Mormon? If you can't produce real evidence then you have blind faith.

Only partially true. I cannot point to any evidence that you would accept. Big difference.

Then present it don't make my decisions for me. You are not qualified to do that. You also have not produced any biblical support for the initiation rites Mormons hold for entry into the temple.

Just like we don't need the plates anymore because of Christ's work

Then what was Smith restoring and why was he given the plates when Christ had completed his work 1900 years earlier? Obviously he thought Christ didn't do it as the book of Mormon has not support from Christ whatsoever nor do the other Mormon scriptures.

Does your failure to provide one shred of evidence make your Protestant faith false and cultic?

We have evidence, lots of it.

Your statement is objectively false. At least eleven others saw the plates, and their testimony must be considered a historical reference by all rational people.

Hearsay and possible conspiracy. Also biased and prejudiced testimony. We have reports from unbelievers who can read the Bible and have read it on their own. No one outside of your cult has seen or read those plates. Their testimony is worthless.

Worthless anti-Mormon slander.

No it is the truth.

Erundur

08-08-2016, 08:56 AM

So you are saying Smith was infallible, holy, perfect and not human?
So you are putting words into my mouth now?

HOW? You cannot produce one piece of evidence to support it.
You mean we cannot produce one piece of evidence that anti-Mormons would accept.

Then present it don't make my decisions for me.
I don't waste my time doing that anymore. If you really want to know, there is a lot of information at FAIR or FARMS.

You also have not produced any biblical support for the initiation rites Mormons hold for entry into the temple.
We don't have any initiation rites for entry into the temple.

Hearsay and possible conspiracy.
It's a conspiracy!

Also biased and prejudiced testimony.
This is exactly how anti-Mormons summarily dismiss any evidence for the Book of Mormon. Even if you don't believe their testimony, your statement was objectively false.

No it is the truth.
Hardly.

Christian

08-08-2016, 02:02 PM

erunder posted:

You have the book of fiction joe smith wrote. There is NOTHING TO SUBSTANTIATE that any of it was ever on any 'golden plates' in 'reformed egyptian' or that such a language EVER EXISTED IN RIAL LIFE.

That's false.

Then you should be able to SUBSTANTIATE that the golden plates, reformed egyptian, nephites and/or ANY of the smith-invented nonsense in the bom ever existed in REAL life with HONEST EVIDENCE.

Yet you HAVE NO SUCH LEGITIMATE EVIDENCE. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH. NADA.

Christian

08-08-2016, 02:16 PM

Erunder posted:

Originally Posted by DrDavidT http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169390#post169390)

ha ha ha. a wonderful example of being willfully deceived. you blindly trust a con man, a fallible, sinful, human being and refuse to think about your situation and how bad it is.

Well, since you've resorted to personal insults, that sounds like a concession to me.

Sorry er, but he didn't give you a personal insult. He gave you the TRUTH. If you are so insulted by the TRUTH that you have to run away like this. . .then that is all you can do.

you blindly trust a con man, a fallible, sinful, human being and refuse to think about your situation and how bad it is.

False.

Your blind faith in joey smith is pathetic. But since that is all you have. . .that is all you have. STILL NO EVIDENCE though, just your blind faith

So do we. We also know the Book of Mormon is true.

Even though many of us CHRISTIANS have taken your 'faith test' and been answered that the bom and joseph smith are false, frauds.

We have evidence backing up our testimony as well-- you have NOTHING and refuse to present anything that supports your blind faith.

That's because I don't have blind faith! Duh!

Then why can you produce EVIDENCE that your faith is in REALITY? You can't because you have NONE you can produce.

The ***le of this thread is WHERE is the EVIDENCE... and you cannot point to one thing as evidence for why you believe.

Only partially true. I cannot point to any evidence that you would accept. Big difference.

You cannot produce ANY evidence other than the fact that YOU believe joe smith. Nothing but YOUR own personal emotional attachment and YOUR own interpretations of joey smith's fiction. NOTHING FACTUAL AT ALL that demonstrates that even one person, place, or event of joey smith's imaginations in his bom EVER HAPPENED OR EXISTED IN REAL LIFE. IF you had any REAL evidence, you could PRODUCE IT.

Erundur

08-08-2016, 03:25 PM

Then you should be able to SUBSTANTIATE that the golden plates, reformed egyptian, nephites and/or ANY of the smith-invented nonsense in the bom ever existed in REAL life with HONEST EVIDENCE.
And you should be able to SUBSTANTIATE that the stone tablets ever existed in REAL life with HONEST EVIDENCE.

Erundur

08-08-2016, 03:37 PM

Sorry er, but he didn't give you a personal insult.
Of course he did.

He gave you the TRUTH.
No he gave me anti-Mormon hate-propaganda.

Your blind faith in joey smith is pathetic.
LOL, your blind faith in anti-Mormon propaganda is pathetic.

Radix

08-08-2016, 03:53 PM

Oh, sorry---I thought it was Dr. David T who answered. Not sure how I saw that.

So you were raised as an atheist?

Growing up only went to church for weddings and funerals.

How about yourself. Did you grow up LDS or were you in the home of a different faith?

Radix

08-08-2016, 04:14 PM

No one can study the stone tablets either, but you come up with all kinds of excuses why we don't need to. Double standard.

The ten commandments also came to us by way of the Torah (Part of the Tanakh or TNK.) We know the language of the Hebrew people is Hebrew. There are people who recognize this language and are able to translate it. For the BofM there is the alleged "Reform Egyptian." Outside the pen of Joseph Smith there are no samples of this "Reformed Egyptian." Nothing. Joseph Smith claimed to be able to translate an unknown language with exactly the same boasting ability a snake oil salesman has about the cure for an unknown disease. The whole "Reformed Egyptian" charade has been laughable from the start. For some reason LDS think Dr. Anthon was able to verify Smith's translation. But based on what? Did he have extensive examples of this language to compare with and cross reference? Anthon said it was a joke. If you really think he concluded otherwise then you must provide some evidence he actually had something to compare it to. But of course evidence is something LDS have always been lacking in.

Anyway, we can translate Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. No rock in a hat pulled over our face needed. Where we do have examples of Smith's translation abilities with the Facsimiles in the PofGP, we see Smith was absolutely clueless on how to translate Egyptian. Since we know he lied about translating Egyptian, why should anyone actually believe he could translate any ancient language?

BigJulie

08-08-2016, 05:55 PM

Growing up only went to church for weddings and funerals.

How about yourself. Did you grow up LDS or were you in the home of a different faith?

I grew up LDS--faithful mother, inactive father. I definitely attribute my life and well-being to being able to gain a testimony of Jesus Christ, learn to recognize the promptings of the Holy Ghost and to live by answer to prayers.

BigJulie

08-08-2016, 05:58 PM

The ten commandments also came to us by way of the Torah (Part of the Tanakh or TNK.) We know the language of the Hebrew people is Hebrew. There are people who recognize this language and are able to translate it. For the BofM there is the alleged "Reform Egyptian." Outside the pen of Joseph Smith there are no samples of this "Reformed Egyptian." Nothing. Joseph Smith claimed to be able to translate an unknown language with exactly the same boasting ability a snake oil salesman has about the cure for an unknown disease. The whole "Reformed Egyptian" charade has been laughable from the start. For some reason LDS think Dr. Anthon was able to verify Smith's translation. But based on what? Did he have extensive examples of this language to compare with and cross reference? Anthon said it was a joke. If you really think he concluded otherwise then you must provide some evidence he actually had something to compare it to. But of course evidence is something LDS have always been lacking in.

Anyway, we can translate Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. No rock in a hat pulled over our face needed. Where we do have examples of Smith's translation abilities with the Facsimiles in the PofGP, we see Smith was absolutely clueless on how to translate Egyptian. Since we know he lied about translating Egyptian, why should anyone actually believe he could translate any ancient language?

While the Book of Mormon was written in reformed egyptian, it was written by Jews. As such, you will find Jewish style of writing.

Erundur

08-08-2016, 08:32 PM

For the BofM there is the alleged "Reform Egyptian."
Actually, it's "the reformed Egyptian," which is a script, not a language.

Outside the pen of Joseph Smith there are no samples of this "Reformed Egyptian." Nothing.
Which is exactly what we'd expect if the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.

Joseph Smith claimed to be able to translate an unknown language with exactly the same boasting ability a snake oil salesman has about the cure for an unknown disease. The whole "Reformed Egyptian" charade has been laughable from the start. For some reason LDS think Dr. Anthon was able to verify Smith's translation. But based on what? Did he have extensive examples of this language to compare with and cross reference? Anthon said it was a joke. If you really think he concluded otherwise then you must provide some evidence he actually had something to compare it to. But of course evidence is something LDS have always been lacking in.

Anyway, we can translate Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. No rock in a hat pulled over our face needed. Where we do have examples of Smith's translation abilities with the Facsimiles in the PofGP, we see Smith was absolutely clueless on how to translate Egyptian. Since we know he lied about translating Egyptian, why should anyone actually believe he could translate any ancient language?
Worthless anti-Mormon rhetoric.

Phoenix

08-08-2016, 11:30 PM

Your argument fails on several accounts.
My argument is merely that your argument is so full of double standards and nonsensical "logic" that it would be laughed out of a real debate. Your premise--that if the original autographs of a document are currently unavailable, then everyone should conclude that the original never existed--is laughably false, wrong, incorrect, etc.

Your reasoning is so irrational that you actually refute yourself, without realizing it, when you say that the known, admitted lack of any original Bible documents doesn't mean that we should conclude that they never existed.

That's pretty much how you lost the debate.

Christian

08-09-2016, 06:55 AM

erunder posted:

LOL, your blind faith in anti-Mormon propaganda is pathetic.

Sorry er, but I HAVE NO such 'blind faith in anti-mormon propaganda at all. That's all in YOUR HEAD.

What I hold against the mormon religion is the FACT that it contradicts what GOD has said in HIS WORD, THE BIBLE.

The fact that no honest FACTUAL EVIDENCE exists to support your religion merely shows me that you believe your religious cult ONLY based upon the trash that joey smith invented.

You can CLAIM you have EVIDENCE that supports smith's religious inventions, but IF YOU DID, YOU COULD PRESENT IT HERE, (CITATIONS and all). But it is clear from the fact that you cannot present it, that you cannot FIND ANY real evidence.

dberrie2000

08-09-2016, 07:54 AM

You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

Seeing the Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church--are you claiming there are no Biblical m****cripts?

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 12:48 AM

Your tap dancing and avoidance is noted.

So you are putting words into my mouth now?

Nope, just asked a question since you denied he was a human being.

You mean we cannot produce one piece of evidence that anti-Mormons would accept.

Whether it is accepted or not is immaterial. If you have evidence then produce it. I have already shown how worthless the stones are so what evidence do you have?

We don't have any initiation rites for entry into the temple.

I already know that you do.

This is exactly how anti-Mormons summarily dismiss any evidence for the Book of Mormon. Even if you don't believe their testimony, your statement was objectively false.

Evidence is not one group getting together and making claims, evidence stands on its own and points to the truth.

How?

Well, since you've resorted to personal insults, that sounds like a concession to me.

How, if I did which i didn't, does a personal insult become a concession? What dream world are you living in?

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 12:50 AM

Seeing the Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church--are you claiming there are no Biblical m****cripts?

The Bible is there in name only. You do realize that the other Mormon scriptures are given a higher place and more weight than the Bible and that they do contradict the Bible in many different teachings, don't you?

Nice try in trying to twist my words, I was only referring to the non-bible Mormon religious writings.

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 12:51 AM

My argument is merely that your argument is so full of double standards and nonsensical "logic" that it would be laughed out of a real debate. Your premise--that if the original autographs of a document are currently unavailable, then everyone should conclude that the original never existed--is laughably false, wrong, incorrect, etc.

Your reasoning is so irrational that you actually refute yourself, without realizing it, when you say that the known, admitted lack of any original Bible documents doesn't mean that we should conclude that they never existed.

That's pretty much how you lost the debate.

Since I never said that I highly doubt it.

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 12:55 AM

Actually, it's "the reformed Egyptian," which is a script, not a language.

There is NO script called Reformed Egyptian. That also doesn't even make sense because Coptic is a script using some Greek letters but it is also a language.

Which is exactly what we'd expect if the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.

You are joking right? Sorry but if the BOm was what it claimed to be then we would find examples of reformed egyptian all over the place

While the Book of Mormon was written in reformed egyptian, it was written by Jews. As such, you will find Jewish style of writing.

quote from Big Julie--- this is not even remotely true.

Erundur

08-10-2016, 09:26 AM

Nope, just asked a question since you denied he was a human being.
False. I never denied that Joseph Smith was a human being.

Whether it is accepted or not is immaterial. If you have evidence then produce it.
It's already been produced by organizations like FAIR and FARMS.

I already know that you do.
No you don't. If you want to tell me what you think the initiation rite is, I can correct you.

evidence stands on its own and points to the truth.
Not really. Evidence must be interpreted.

How, if I did which i didn't, does a personal insult become a concession?
It is an admission that you can no longer argue for your position with substance. Resorting to insults is an admission that you have lost and simply want to hurt your opponent's feelings.

Erundur

08-10-2016, 09:41 AM

There is NO script called Reformed Egyptian.
I know; it's called reformed Egyptian.

That also doesn't even make sense because Coptic is a script using some Greek letters but it is also a language.
Um, what? So one script is also a language, therefore all scripts must also be languages? Can you identify the logical fallacy there?

You are joking right?
Nope.

Sorry but if the BOm was what it claimed to be then we would find examples of reformed egyptian all over the place
Explain why.

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 03:24 PM

False. I never denied that Joseph Smith was a human being.

no, human being was one of the descriptions i used and you said false

It's already been produced by organizations like FAIR and FARMS.

Then you should have no problem producing some

Not really. Evidence must be interpreted.

wrong

It is an admission that you can no longer argue for your position with substance.

not at all since i never made a personal attack. and the only one who isn't and can't argue from their position with substance is you.

I know; it's called reformed Egyptian.

not even funny. there is NO script by that name found anywhere nor attested to anywhere

So one script is also a language, therefore all scripts must also be languages? Can you identify the logical fallacy there?

there is NO such thing as reformed Egyptian script. That was another lie spoken by smith.

you would have to produce the golden plates to prove there is such a script.

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 03:27 PM

it is obvious that the resident mormons cannot produce any evidence to support their claims so their argument that they are not deceived or brainwashed or have s viable faith are moot and erroneous.

their refusal to produce anything means they have nothing and that they are blindly following a con man and refuse to be honest with themselves and admit it.

no more words mormons, if you are going to post here put up the evidence or shut up

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 03:38 PM

oh and just so you know what evidence looks like:

the bible spoke about the hit***es and for 1800 years people thought the biblical authors made that people up. That is until they discovered the hit***e civilization.

Then we have the recent discovery of the philistine cemetery which adds support to the biblical account of the philistine people, along with an earlier discovery of a philistine temple which was designed exactly like the ones the Bible says were in existence in samson's time. Notice no one produces a jaw bone of an *** and says this is the one samson used. they produce REAL evidence.

real evidence not any old stone someone claims were used by smith.

BigJulie

08-10-2016, 06:12 PM

quote from Big Julie--- this is not even remotely true. (regarding the Book of Mormon being written in the style of the Jews)

Hmm, I guess you must be right and any chiasmus or other Jewish type of writing must be just purely coincidental.

BigJulie

08-10-2016, 06:17 PM

When Erundur stated:
Not really. Evidence must be interpreted.

You said:

wrong

Your name "Dr." must not be real---right? I can't imagine any doctor of any degree disagreeing with the fact that evidence must be interpreted. I don't know of a single study in which the "conclusions' are not intrepreted based on the theories and understanding of possible weakness in the methodologies, etc. What type of doctor are you exactly?

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 06:58 PM

When Erundur stated:
Not really. Evidence must be interpreted.

You said:

Your name "Dr." must not be real---right? I can't imagine any doctor of any degree disagreeing with the fact that evidence must be interpreted. I don't know of a single study in which the "conclusions' are not intrepreted based on the theories and understanding of possible weakness in the methodologies, etc. What type of doctor are you exactly?

Sorry but unless you pony up the evidence you will not have your posts addressed.

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 07:00 PM

(regarding the Book of Mormon being written in the style of the Jews)

Hmm, I guess you must be right and any chiasmus or other Jewish type of writing must be just purely coincidental.

stay on topic please. this is a thread about evidence for the bom and other mormon claims. if you do not have any please do not muck up the thread with your erroneous information.

you need evidence supporting the claim that jews wrote the bom. last anyone looked smith was not a jewish name.

Phoenix

08-10-2016, 07:51 PM

the bible spoke about the hit***es and for 1800 years people thought the biblical authors made that people up. That is until they discovered the hit***e civilization.

And since the Book of Mormon has only been speaking about the nephites for 200 years, people should wait another 1600 years before opening their mouths and claiming that it is made up...right?

BigJulie

08-10-2016, 07:56 PM

Sorry but unless you pony up the evidence you will not have your posts addressed.

You have made a statement that leads me to believe you do not understand what evidence is.

DrDavidT

08-10-2016, 09:40 PM

we now need to ask the following question:

Why are the mormons so afraid of producing any evidence to support their claims and their faith?

BigJulie

08-10-2016, 10:08 PM

we now need to ask the following question:

Why are the mormons so afraid of producing any evidence to support their claims and their faith?

I thought I had done that with expressing my "proof" in experiencing the fruits of the spirit.

Do you want "archaeological evidence"--well, that would not support our claims of "faith"--but of our scientific studies.

That said, you still have not convinced me that even when it comes to scientific studies that you understand what is considered as evidence, methodologies, weaknesses of every study that is ever done--as no one will ever get an R^2 of 1 and why every study worth its salt leads to another study.

Christian

08-11-2016, 07:32 AM

big posted:

I thought I had done that with expressing my "proof" in experiencing the fruits of the spirit.

We've seen no such 'fruits' (in the Bible the fruit of the Spirit is SINGULARLY expressed) from you.

JW's, branch davidians SAY they have the fruit of the Spirit.

We CHRISTIANS HAVE BOTH, the fruit of the Spirit AND archaeological evidence. You don't seem to REALLY have either.

Do you want "archaeological evidence"--well, that would not support our claims of "faith"--but of our scientific studies.

Since you seem to have no REAL EVIDENCE OF EITHER, you are in a mess.

That said, you still have not convinced me that even when it comes to scientific studies that you understand what is considered as evidence, methodologies, weaknesses of every study that is ever done--as no one will ever get an R^2 of 1 and why every study worth its salt leads to another study.

You do not WANT to be convinced of the TRUTH it seems. Why are you so afraid of the blatant LACK of any evidence that there was EVER any reality to joe smith's stories?
God said in HIS WORD, the BIBLE:

Heb 11:1-2
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
NKJV

How do you reconcile THAT P***AGE with the sad LACK OF SUBSTANCE your religion has to offer?

BigJulie

08-11-2016, 06:07 PM

big posted:

We CHRISTIANS HAVE BOTH, the fruit of the Spirit AND archaeological evidence. You don't seem to REALLY have either.[/COLOR]

?[/COLOR]

Actually, you don't. You do not have any proof that any of the Bible stories are true. Show me proof of Noah's Arc or the parting of the Red Sea. Show me proof--anywhere from any other source other than the Bible that Jesus existed. What I will show you is that for any "proof" you provide, detractors will tell you that your "evidence" is biased. Just knowing a place existed is not evidence as to what happened in that place.

teenapenny

08-11-2016, 07:18 PM

Actually, you don't. You do not have any proof that any of the Bible stories are true. Show me proof of Noah's Arc or the parting of the Red Sea. Show me proof--anywhere from any other source other than the Bible that Jesus existed. What I will show you is that for any "proof" you provide, detractors will tell you that your "evidence" is biased. Just knowing a place existed is not evidence as to what happened in that place.
We have all the proof we need that the Bible stories are true and pray that will be revealed to you also.

BigJulie

08-11-2016, 11:00 PM

We have all the proof we need that the Bible stories are true and pray that will be revealed to you also.

I know the Bible stories are true--my point is that there is no archaeological evidence that they are. But if you have it, by all means, produce it.

DrDavidT

08-12-2016, 01:26 AM

But if you have it, by all means, produce it.

You are confused, this thread is about Mormons producing their evidence, not the believer. Pony up, oh and you have not produced any 'fruits of the spirit' evidence. You do not have any of the fruits of the spirit.

DrDavidT

08-12-2016, 01:33 AM

We have all the proof we need that the Bible stories are true and pray that will be revealed to you also.

we have enough evidence from some of the stories to validate the others

BigJulie

08-12-2016, 07:58 AM

we have enough evidence from some of the stories to validate the others

All evidence from believers that validate your beliefs. Okay, we have plenty of that if that is your litmus test for what is "evidence."

http://www.templestudy.com/2011/04/07/authentic-ancient-metal-plates/

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/vd6l8c4c/7.%20STELA%205.htm?n=0

DrDavidT

08-12-2016, 04:02 PM

The first link only shows that it is a possibility for gold plates to exist. They do nothing to prove Smith's claims as true.

The second link does so much eisegesis that it is worthless. an example:

A now-famous sculpture from ancient America is the large stone monument known as Stela 5, Izapa, which was found in about 1939 at the ruined city called Izapa in southern Mexico. On the face of this monu*ment is carved a complex religious scene, the central feature of which is a great tree with fruit on its branches --undoubtedly a representation of the symbolic tree of life of ancient American religion--and two large semi*-human figures standing (apparently in the air) facing it on either side, attending it.

Also prominent in the scene are six persons seated together on the ground--actually three on each side of the tree, and two of them on a cushion or stool--evi*dently engaged in some discussion. The principal one among them is an old, stoop-shouldered man with a long full beard (hence a white man?), seated oriental-*fashion on a cushion facing the tree, and wearing a high pointed tiara, which resembles the tiara worn by ancient Israelite high priests. His hands are out*stretched in a speaking gesture towards the tree; that is, he seems to be saying something about the tree-*the tree of life--to the other five persons seated around.

First, who said it represented the tree of life? There is no ancient verification to show that idea to be true.

Second, only 2 humans ever saw those trees so why would that picture represent the tree of life?

Third, I can't see the picture very well but the Israelites and Egyptians did not have a monopoly on their style of headdresses. We know this by existence of all the masks in the world and how unrelated and very distant groups of people had the same idea of masks and used them for similar purposes.

Fourth, what verifiable and legitimate information ties that carving to the tree of life? The old man may be telling people a different story.

Neither website provide evidence for Smith's or Mormon claims.

Okay, we have plenty of that if that is your litmus test for what is "evidence."

I provided an example of what real evidence is and so far you have failed to provide any. You did prove a possibility but that is it. There is nothing to say that the golden plates exist or that they spoke on some ancient true religious belief.

BigJulie

08-13-2016, 08:43 AM

The first link only shows that it is a possibility for gold plates to exist. They do nothing to prove Smith's claims as true.

The second link does so much eisegesis that it is worthless. an example:

First, who said it represented the tree of life? There is no ancient verification to show that idea to be true.

Second, only 2 humans ever saw those trees so why would that picture represent the tree of life?

Third, I can't see the picture very well but the Israelites and Egyptians did not have a monopoly on their style of headdresses. We know this by existence of all the masks in the world and how unrelated and very distant groups of people had the same idea of masks and used them for similar purposes.

Fourth, what verifiable and legitimate information ties that carving to the tree of life? The old man may be telling people a different story.

Neither website provide evidence for Smith's or Mormon claims.

I provided an example of what real evidence is and so far you have failed to provide any. You did prove a possibility but that is it. There is nothing to say that the golden plates exist or that they spoke on some ancient true religious belief.

Which is exactly how I predicted you would react. You will find your detractors as well.

But any reader here can go to the site and see if there is evidence that gold plates existed even before people of Joseph Smith's time knew about them as well as look at the the other site to see the actual stone.

Christian

08-13-2016, 09:04 AM

And you should be able to SUBSTANTIATE that the stone tablets ever existed in REAL life with HONEST EVIDENCE.

And YOU should be able to come up with joe smith's pants. I doubt if you can.

So you are UNABLE to support your blind religious faith with any SUBSTANCE OR REALITY. . .We see.

Joe smith claimed the Bible is the Word of God, so joseph smith must have accepted that those stone tablets. . .why can't you believe your own 'prophet?' Or do you simply have a smorgasbord religion, picking out only what you WANT to believe of what your own 'prophet' believed and ignoring the rest?

Please ANSWER THE OP HONESTLY. I don't believe you can.

BigJulie

08-13-2016, 12:33 PM

And YOU should be able to come up with joe smith's pants. I doubt if you can.

So you are UNABLE to support your blind religious faith with any SUBSTANCE OR REALITY. . .We see.

Joe smith claimed the Bible is the Word of God, so joseph smith must have accepted that those stone tablets. . .why can't you believe your own 'prophet?' Or do you simply have a smorgasbord religion, picking out only what you WANT to believe of what your own 'prophet' believed and ignoring the rest?

Please ANSWER THE OP HONESTLY. I don't believe you can.

The point is to show the hypocrisy of asking another to show proof of their faith through archaeological evidence when your own faith cannot.

DrDavidT

08-14-2016, 01:00 AM

But any reader here can go to the site and see if there is evidence that gold plates existed even before people of Joseph Smith's time knew about them as well as look at the the other site to see the actual stone.

You still do not get it do you? Yes you have shown that there are ancient inscriptions written on metal but guess what... Not one is tied to the supposed golden plates. At least one is tied to the Bible so we have evidence for the historicity of God's word but nothing for the Mormon gold plates, the BOM or any other extra-biblical mormon scriptures.

You still have no evidence supporting one thing smith claimed.

Stealing evidence from other works i snot providing evidence for your own.

DrDavidT

08-14-2016, 01:01 AM

The point is to show the hypocrisy of asking another to show proof of their faith through archaeological evidence when your own faith cannot.

Uhm we have the silver scrolls, the DSS, we have ancient biblical cities and civilizations in the exact time and location they were written about, we have extra biblical confirmation on certain events and on it goes. you still have nothing for your claims.

BigJulie

08-14-2016, 08:56 AM

Uhm we have the silver scrolls, the DSS, we have ancient biblical cities and civilizations in the exact time and location they were written about, we have extra biblical confirmation on certain events and on it goes. you still have nothing for your claims.

Only because the area you are speaking about was preserved unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas. Yet, even you must admit, non-believers will find arguments against these and the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories. Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal (even before this was common understanding 200 years ago) and that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life. I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

BigJulie

08-14-2016, 08:56 AM

DrDavidT

08-14-2016, 03:39 PM

Only because the area you are speaking about was preserved unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas. Yet, even you must admit, non-believers will find arguments against these and the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories. Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal (even before this was common understanding 200 years ago) and that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life. I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

unlike the destruction that was done to the Americas.

what destruction?

the fact that there is no other evidence for Bible stories.

we have evidence-- jericho, the flood, the conquest. we also have the pool of siloam and many other NT places

Likewise, we can show that ancient records were written on metal

showing other people's evidence is not evidence for your golden tablets. showing inscriptions on metal only mans your golden tablets are a possibility but does nothing to prove your tablets are real.

that there is a stone that shows Lehi's story of the tree of life.

you cannot tie that stone to lehi. you can't even demonstrate that it is talking about the tree of life

I know you will argue against this just like atheists will argue against your "evidence'--do you not see the hypocrisy?

you do not understand what the term hypocrisy means.

DrDavidT

08-14-2016, 03:40 PM

And when did faith rely on "evidence" such as this? If faith the belief in things "NOT SEEN"?

you have faith in your stories but that doesn't make them true.

BigJulie

08-14-2016, 05:13 PM

what destruction? Read up on what the Spaniards did when they entered the New World.

we have evidence-- jericho, the flood, the conquest. we also have the pool of siloam and many other NT places The flood--I have heard scientists argue that there is no such evidence in our geology. I believe in the flood--but then we should see an it is our geological layer.

Places? That's it? You just want a place and if I can show you a place, then you will agree that it is true?

showing other people's evidence is not evidence for your golden tablets. showing inscriptions on metal only mans your golden tablets are a possibility but does nothing to prove your tablets are real. nope, but it does prove that this was not known at the time of Joseph Smith.

you cannot tie that stone to lehi. you can't even demonstrate that it is talking about the tree of life
Nor can your prove that the stories are true in the Bible. Circumstantial evidence is just that. But once again--you seem to think faith relies on this type of proof--when it does not.

But here is Biblical Proof:

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

So---was this promise kept or not? Did Isaac's family spread to the west?

you do not understand what the term hypocrisy means.

Once again--your only argument is to put me down.

DrDavidT

08-14-2016, 06:09 PM

Read up on what the Spaniards did when they entered the New World.

uhm,,, that is a poor argument for you have no evidence that the Spaniards or even the ancient people of South and Central America destroyed or had records supporting Smith.

You are using this as an argument because it is convenient not factual.

The flood--I have heard scientists argue that there is no such evidence in our geology. I believe in the flood--but then we should see an it is our geological layer.

Evidence is not limited to geology. Then, there has only been one global flood, the geologists would have no idea what to look for.

nope, but it does prove that this was not known at the time of Joseph Smith.

that means absolutely nothing. and how do you know it wasn't known at Smith's time? People wrote on metal all the time. He could have gotten the idea from contemporary work

Nor can your prove that the stories are true in the Bible. Circumstantial evidence is just that. But once again--you seem to think faith relies on this type of proof--when it does not.

We have proven enough evidence that verifies the veracity of the Bible and they are not circumstantial.

Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

That is not evidence for the BOM or Smith's claims

Phoenix

08-15-2016, 11:01 AM

BigJulie

08-15-2016, 05:21 PM

[QUOTE=DrDavidT;169606]uhm,,, that is a poor argument for you have no evidence that the Spaniards or even the ancient people of South and Central America destroyed or had records supporting Smith.
We have historical knowledge that the Spaniards destroyed many records as they brought in Catholicism. It is interesting that you believe that one should be able to show proof that records (that are destroyed mind you) should be able to indicate what those records are.

You are using this as an argument because it is convenient not factual.That Spaniards destroyed records and ***imilated civilizations? You can just do an Internet search for this.

Evidence is not limited to geology. Then, there has only been one global flood, the geologists would have no idea what to look for. Umm, what? That is what geologists do--look for what happened in different areas based on the rock formations or layers. As geologists do not support this, I rely on faith about this. I ***ume you do to.

that means absolutely nothing. and how do you know it wasn't known at Smith's time? People wrote on metal all the time. He could have gotten the idea from contemporary work Based on when the metal plates were discovered. So, what evidence do you have the people in Joseph Smith's area were writing on metal? You can look this up when it was discovered that ancient records were found on metal plates as well.

Or are you admitting that there may be evidence about something that happened during a time period that has been since lost?

We have proven enough evidence that verifies the veracity of the Bible and they are not circumstantial. What evidence? You have yet to show any. To say a city existed or a place existed or other written records exist of the same books does not show proof. There are millions of copies of the Book of Mormon--to you this would count as evidence.

That is not evidence for the BOM or Smith's claims

It is proof that God said that Abraham's seed should bless the world---and the Book of Mormon is the only record that I am aware of that God has kept this promise in ancient days.

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View PostYou do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostSeeing the Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church--are you claiming there are no Biblical m****cripts?

The Bible is there in name only.

Whatever you might believe about the Bible--it is canonized scripture in the LDS church.

Therefore--how do you support your postulation?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View PostYou do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 07:04 AM

People wrote on metal all the time. He could have gotten the idea from contemporary work

One of the previous arguments against the golden plates is there was no evidence which supported ancient people writing on metal plates--and burying them.

"No such records were ever engraved upon golden plates, or any other plates, in the early ages" [M.T. Lamb, The Golden Bible, or, the Book of Mormon: Is It from God? (New York: Ward & Drummond, 1887), p. 11].

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 11:27 AM

I will list the topics that need evidence:

the golden tablets

the book of mormon

any claim made by smith

that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Christian

08-17-2016, 02:44 PM

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 02:50 PM

I <snipped> the junk of your 'witnesses,' some of whom later called joe smith a liar and worse, and others who left mormonism completely.

NOT ONE of your 'witnesses ever translated one word of text, never READ even one word of the text themselves. SOME said they only 'saw' the plates through 'spiritual eyes' but not physically.

Just another conman, his conmen buddies, his own conman family, and one loner (Hyram Page)?

I don't see any reason to believe in joe's magical plates yet. Got any REAL evidence?

Hi Christian:

Could you show us where any witness ever denied his testimony recorded here?

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Witnesses are always a valid presentation in any court. Unless you can show where they denied their witness--then it stands.

Christian

08-17-2016, 02:57 PM

dberrie2000

08-17-2016, 06:50 PM

I'm recovering from a wreck (someone rear-ended me at 45mph when I was stopped in a line for a light. I was hospitalized as was the p***enger in the car ahead of me. My own car was destroyed. I was the 'filling in the oreo' somebody said.
I am tired, so I won't take the time or make the effort to do the research. I have seen with my own physical eyes of documents that cowdery, whitmer, and harris wrote. My position stands solidly if YOU bother to do simple research.

I'm wishing you a speedy recovery. My son was hit by a drunk driver while at a red light--at 50 MPH--with a Cadillac Escalade. The thing is--he had just borrowed my new car. I believe that saved him.

Don't worry about this right now, it's not that important anyway--just rest and get well. We will have some fun with it later.

MichaellS

08-18-2016, 02:27 AM

I'm wishing you a speedy recovery. My son was hit by a drunk driver while at a red light--at 50 MPH--with a Cadillac Escalade. The thing is--he had just borrowed my new car. I believe that saved him.

Don't worry about this right now, it's not that important anyway--just rest and get well. We will have some fun with it later.

Wishing the same!

dberrie2000

08-18-2016, 02:55 PM

You are confused, this thread is about Mormons producing their evidence, not the believer.

The believer of what? In a theology that preaches one inherits eternal life without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Christian

08-19-2016, 09:03 AM

The believer of what? In a theology that preaches one inherits eternal life without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Yes, the BIBLICAL THEOLOGY. According to YOUR THEORY, a quadraplegic blind mute would go to hell.

According to the BIBLICAL THEOLOGY, a thief who was fastened to a cross would go to heaven because of his FAITH, NOT because of his works.

As I have SHOWN YOU, the p***age is from a man TO A MAN, and is NOT from God's Viewpoint. GOD'S VIEWPOINT IS:

Rom 4:5-85 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

You KNOW I have shown this to you before and you have NOT SHOWN that God does NOT justify the ungodly because his faith was not enough works.

EXACTLY WHAT 'works' do YOU deem REQUIRED for man to be forgiven by God? PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. . .if you are up to it.

dberrie2000

08-19-2016, 09:44 AM

EXACTLY WHAT 'works' do YOU deem REQUIRED for man to be forgiven by God? PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. . .if you are up to it.

Let's start here:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 06:19 PM

The Book of Mormon had been claiming, all alone, that some ancient civilizations wrote important things on metal. People laughed at the claim and said "If that is true, then where is the evidence? How come no metal engravings have ever been discovered?"

Then, over 100 years later, the silver scrolls were discovered.

As I pointed out, the silver scrolls are evidence for the Bible NOT the BOM or Mormon golden plates.

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 06:22 PM

One of the previous arguments against the golden plates is there was no evidence which supported ancient people writing on metal plates--and burying them.

"No such records were ever engraved upon golden plates, or any other plates, in the early ages" [M.T. Lamb, The Golden Bible, or, the Book of Mormon: Is It from God? (New York: Ward & Drummond, 1887), p. 11].

you people do not seem to be reading what has been written in this thread. Metal inscriptions are NOT evidence for the Mormon golden plates. All they do is show that it was a possibility that an inscription was placed on golden plates. Nothing ties those discoveries to the Mormon and Smith's claims and cannot be used as evidence to support those claims.

You still have to produce the golden plates.

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 06:31 PM

We have historical knowledge that the Spaniards destroyed many records as they brought in Catholicism. It is interesting that you believe that one should be able to show proof that records (that are destroyed mind you) should be able to indicate what those records are.

You missed the key words of my post-- records supporting Smith's claims--- all I have seen you Mormons do is steal evidence from other works and claim it supports Smith and his claims. The Spaniards destroying Mayan records is not proof that they destroyed BOM evidence.

That Spaniards destroyed records and ***imilated civilizations? You can just do an Internet search for this.

it is a giant leap to say that the records destroyed by the Spaniards were those that supported Smith's claims. You haven't proved that such records even existed yet so you are not providing evidence for anything here.

That is what geologists do--look for what happened in different areas based on the rock formations or layers. As geologists do not support this, I rely on faith about this. I ***ume you do to.

You do not know what you are talking about. As I said, flood evidence is not limited to geology.

Based on when the metal plates were discovered. So, what evidence do you have the people in Joseph Smith's area were writing on metal? You can look this up when it was discovered that ancient records were found on metal plates as well.

Or are you admitting that there may be evidence about something that happened during a time period that has been since lost?

Again, you do not know what you are talking about. You cannot steal evidence for other works and then claim you have evidence for your golden plates. As I said, you only have a possibility but since no Mormon can produce the golden plates nor make those translation stones work, you got nothing.

What evidence? You have yet to show any. To say a city existed or a place existed or other written records exist of the same books does not show proof. There are millions of copies of the Book of Mormon--to you this would count as evidence.

Siiiiggghhhhhhhh..... This is a thread for Mormons to produce evidence not for Christians to provide evidence for the Bible. Agai, you do not know what you are talking about and do not know what evidence is.

It is proof that God said that Abraham's seed should bless the world---and the Book of Mormon is the only record that I am aware of that God has kept this promise in ancient days.

Then you do not believe the Bible but take the BOM over its words.

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 06:32 PM

Whatever you might believe about the Bible--it is canonized scripture in the LDS church.

Therefore--how do you support your postulation?

Being canonized scripture does not mean you or other Mormons understand what it is saying, have the truth, follow the Bible or do not have other scriptures which contradict the Bible.

dberrie2000

08-19-2016, 07:57 PM

Being canonized scripture does not mean you or other Mormons understand what it is saying, have the truth, follow the Bible ......

That could be applied equally to anyone.

Again--how do you support your postulation, seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post--You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

dberrie2000

08-19-2016, 08:00 PM

you people do not seem to be reading what has been written in this thread. Metal inscriptions are NOT evidence for the Mormon golden plates.

I did not post any inscriptions. I posted the testimony of witnesses--which is considered evidence in any court of law:

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 08:24 PM

That could be applied equally to anyone.

Again--how do you support your postulation, seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

Let me remind you that this thread is for Mormons to post their evidence, stop derailing the thread.

Your superficial argument tries to hide the real story behind the presence of the Bible in Mormon theology. Now if you do not have evidence stop ruining the thread.

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 08:25 PM

I did not post any inscriptions. I posted the testimony of witnesses--which is considered evidence in any court of law:

uhm...not necessarily. Given that 3 of the names are Smith, the credibility of their testimony is lacking.

dberrie2000

08-19-2016, 10:05 PM

Let me remind you that this thread is for Mormons to post their evidence, stop derailing the thread.

I posted my evidence.

Maybe you could answer to your post:

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post--You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

Seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--what is the evidence of your postulation?

Your superficial argument tries to hide the real story behind the presence of the Bible in Mormon theology.

The real story is the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and it testifies against faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

dberrie2000

08-19-2016, 10:07 PM

uhm...not necessarily. Given that 3 of the names are Smith, the credibility of their testimony is lacking.

What is your evidence of that? Are you claiming anyone with the name of Smith is not credible?

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 10:23 PM

I posted my evidence.

testimony from 8 people of dubious nature...not conclusive.

Seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--what is the evidence of your postulation?

The Bible does not attest to Smith's supposed ancient religion nor speaks of another prophet coming after Jesus to restore that religion.

The real story is the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and it testifies against faith alone theology:.

just because you have the Bible as part of Mormon religious writings does not mean you have it right or understand what the Bible is talking about. You seem to cherry pick the scriptures you will believe as the Bible does not represent Satan as the Mormon church does.

DrDavidT

08-19-2016, 10:28 PM

What is your evidence of that? Are you claiming anyone with the name of Smith is not credible?

Yes. Since you take a very long range and superficial view of the name Smith. YOU would have to prove that they are NOT relatives of Smith. Then you would have to prove that they are actually independent witnesses, not part of a conspiracy, telling the truth. How do you know they didn't lie? Then how do you know that Smith actually showed them the true plates?

Produce the actual plates and prove they are the actual plates Smith translated form. Showing any old stone and not making them work is not showing the stones Smith actually used.

Christian

08-20-2016, 05:10 PM

My thanks to you guys who wished me well. I am now pretty much fully recovered (the car was destroyed; has been replaced) God has been VERY kind to my wife and myself. No, she was not in the car, but she had to deal with my problems.

All is well now. Give ALL the Glory to GOD! HE kept me safe and let me off with just bad sprains and nothing broken or torn apart. No face-plants into the steering wheel (seat belt was secure, no airbag) No being shot out the windshield. (Seatbelt), and no broken neck (headrest padded and at the correct height) IT WAS ALL GOD TAKING CARE OF ME!

Christian

08-20-2016, 05:31 PM

Seeing the Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church--are you claiming there are no Biblical m****cripts?

Berry posted:

Originally Posted by DrDavidT http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169085#post169085)
You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

The mormon religion may CLAIM to use the Bible, but the Bible is FAR FROM being 'mormon text.' The Bible existed LONG BEFORE joe smith invented his religious cult.

Your 'response' is childish and beyond ignorant (and YOU KNOW IT!) If you had an HONEST answer to give to Dr DavidT's claim, you would certainly offer it; but of course you cannot so you resort to this kind of 'baby response' instead.

It figures. It demonstrates the lack of spiritual and mental maturity mormons have.

dberrie2000

08-21-2016, 07:19 PM

Berry posted:

[COLOR=#0000ff]
The mormon religion may CLAIM to use the Bible, but the Bible is FAR FROM being 'mormon text.'

The Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church. It's official translation is the KJV.

Christian

08-22-2016, 06:46 AM

The Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church. It's official translation is the KJV.

The catholics, branch davidians, jw's, and the white supremecists also CLAIM to use the Bible, but it is NOT THEIR TEXT EITHER. In their cases, as in the mormon case, it is just something they give 'lip-service' to.

So WHERE IS YOUR SUPPOSED EVIDENCE that mormon, nephites or ANY EVENT, PERSONS, or CIVILIZATIONS that are 'mormon specific' ever existed at all?

Of course THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT SMITH'S FANTASIES. Just your 'blind faith' in smith and his fantasies.

Christian

08-22-2016, 06:51 AM

Big posted:

Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

How do you 'explain' the fact that the HOLY GHOST BEARS WITNESS to me that the bom is a lie, joe smith is a liar, fraud, and false prophet, AND THE FACT that I am see the fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD in my life daily and have for over 43 years now?

HOW CAN YOUR SPIRIT LIE TO YOU and contradict itself by telling you that smith is true, but at the same time tell others that smith is a liar?

Doesn't that BOTHER you?

Christian

08-22-2016, 07:02 AM

I would have to ask, is it possible to be lead by another spirit, an inspiration that is not the Spirit of God?

"For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:4)

There are many in other religions who claim it is the Spirt of God that has changed and now guides their lives. Even the 12 step rehabilitation programs encourage it's participants to appeal to a "higher power" in helping them get their lives under control. What makes you think that your experience is any different than theirs?

Let's see now. . the REAL Jesus preached that there is ONE real God; smith claimed there are many.
The REAL Jesus taught salvation by FAITH IN HIM, not by 'earning it' by 'doing stuff;' smith required other things.

We CHRISTIANS have been CHANGED BY GOD, and now have the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT dominant in our lives; Mormons I know have NOT been changed, and their fruits are generally BAD.

You may think you hae a 'higher power,' but your 'power' comes from below. Your so-called '12-step rehabilitation programs' don't even CLAIM to be CHRISTIAN at all, but you are confused and try to lump all non-mormon-cultist groups together, just as other cultic groups do. You even CLAIM to be a 'christian' group, but in the 1970's would NEVER HAVE DONE SO. So much for the EVOLUTION of YOUR CULTIC RELIGION.

dberrie2000

08-23-2016, 11:10 AM

....it is just something they give 'lip-service' to.

The LDS seem to believe it somewhat more than most:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and [COLOR="#FF0000"]not by faith alone.

DrDavidT

08-23-2016, 02:35 PM

The Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church. It's official translation is the KJV.

Repeating this does not remove the 3-4 other canonized Mormon scriptures from existence. Now I only use Wiki here to present the list not as anything else

The Book of Mormon, sub***led since 1981 "Another Testament of Jesus Christ"
The Doctrine and Covenants of the LDS Church
The Pearl of Great Price (containing the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith—Matthew, Joseph Smith—History, and the Articles of Faith)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_works

Divine revelation for the direction of the entire church comes from God to the President of the Church

The RCC makes this claim about the pope, so are you saying that God gives 2 different sets of revelations? How do you know your guy is telling the truth? What evidence do you have that shows the RCC to be in error?

These 3 books contradict the Bible in far too many places and we know that the BOM is NOT another testament of Jesus

then

Year One : Old Testament (also includes some coverage of related topics in the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham from the Pearl of Great Price)
Year Two : New Testament

What evidence do you have that demonstrates that you are not getting false teaching?

dberrie2000

08-24-2016, 04:03 AM

The catholics, branch davidians, jw's, and the white supremecists also CLAIM to use the Bible, but it is NOT THEIR TEXT EITHER.

But it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and [COLOR="#FF0000"]not by faith alone.

Christian

08-24-2016, 07:25 AM

dberry posted:

But it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

It is sometimes USED by the mormon religious cult, but it doe NOT IN ANY WAY "BELONG" to them. Your cult lies to you and gives lip service to the Bible.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

ANY idiot can RIP part of a sentence out of the Bible and pretend it means something it does not. You have been shown to be horribly wrong in your personal understanding of this p***age, yet you keep 'schlocking it in' to all of your posts as if it has meaning to you.

Judas went and hanged himself (BIBLE)
Go thou and do likewise (BIBLE)

See? I can do it too! Should I schlock that into all of my posts to you?

You have been corrected and discredited for your misunderstanding of the James partial sentence several times. Your choice to remain ignorant is noted.

DrDavidT

08-29-2016, 01:39 AM

But it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

AGAIN MORMONS this is a thread for evidence to support yours and Smith's claims. Pony up, so far you have stolen other people's evidence only and only presented possibilities. Releasing photos of stones is not evidence.

DrDavidT

08-29-2016, 10:04 PM

Well since the Mormons cannot produce real evidence to support their claims I guess we will consider this discussion closed.. Mormons cannot support their beliefs so it begs the question why do they hang onto something that is not real?

It also raises another question--why hasn't the angel moroni returned to verify any of Smith's claims?

I think I will start another thread using this question an dif it is a duplicate I apologize in advance

dberrie2000

09-02-2016, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostBut it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

AGAIN MORMONS this is a thread for evidence to support yours and Smith's claims.

His claims were faith alone theology is false--which is the claim of the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Joseph Smith believed in faith alone--as it differentiates from the Mosaic Law--but not faith alone theology--and neither does the Biblical text:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Apologette

01-12-2017, 01:11 PM

I will list the topics that need evidence:

the angel moroni

the golden tablets

the book of mormon

any claim made by smith

that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

All you'll get from a Mormon is this: "I prayed about it, and the Holy Ghost gave me a witness that all those things are true." No evidence at all will be provided, for example, proving the BoM to be genuine history. Joseph Smith is sacrosanct for all Mormons, and some will even tell you that they would have handed over their own wife to Joseph Smith had he asked (he married the wives of other Mormon males). Mormons try to justify the 37 year old Joseph Smith's marriages to little girls, age 14 - and some even say they would have given him their own teenage daughters.

Mormons are so conditioned, so brainwashed, that when we deal with the TBMs (true believing Mormons), we have to realize that their personalities and reasoning abilities are compromised by being is a destructive cult.

Berean

01-12-2017, 03:14 PM

Mormons are so conditioned, so brainwashed, that when we deal with the TBMs (true believing Mormons), we have to realize that their personalities and reasoning abilities are compromised by being is a destructive cult.

Absolutely. And since they lack the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, LDS/Mormons are incapable of understanding and accepting the Gospel message of salvation by grace, through faith alone.

dberrie2000

02-07-2017, 05:31 AM

Absolutely. And since they lack the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, LDS/Mormons are incapable of understanding and accepting the Gospel message of salvation by grace, through faith alone.

The LDS believe one is saved by God's grace. That begs but one question, for me.

Who does God give this grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

DrDavidT

02-13-2017, 06:47 PM

All you'll get from a Mormon is this: "I prayed about it, and the Holy Ghost gave me a witness that all those things are true." No evidence at all will be provided, for example, proving the BoM to be genuine history. Joseph Smith is sacrosanct for all Mormons, and some will even tell you that they would have handed over their own wife to Joseph Smith had he asked (he married the wives of other Mormon males). Mormons try to justify the 37 year old Joseph Smith's marriages to little girls, age 14 - and some even say they would have given him their own teenage daughters.

Mormons are so conditioned, so brainwashed, that when we deal with the TBMs (true believing Mormons), we have to realize that their personalities and reasoning abilities are compromised by being is a destructive cult.

Yes that is true as I have been gone from this thread for awhile and they still cannot produce any evidence to support their claims. they also do not read works which attack their faith so how can they prepare any real answers if they do not know what they other person is talking about nor research history to see if their faith is true. Just so everyone knows, there has not been a religious faith like the mormon one in ancient history, there was nothing for smith to restore.

DrDavidT

02-13-2017, 06:48 PM

duplicate post

dberrie2000

02-14-2017, 06:42 AM

Yes that is true as I have been gone from this thread for awhile and they still cannot produce any evidence to support their claims. they also do not read works which attack their faith so how can they prepare any real answers if they do not know what they other person is talking about nor research history to see if their faith is true. Just so everyone knows, there has not been a religious faith like the mormon one in ancient history, there was nothing for smith to restore.

David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

DrDavidT

02-15-2017, 07:31 PM

dberrie2000

02-15-2017, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

res***ution does not equal restoration

You might want to relate that to Mr Webster:

Definition of res***ution--Merriam Webster

1: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as
a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner
b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
2: a legal action serving to cause restoration of a previous state

DrDavidT

02-16-2017, 06:40 PM

You might want to relate that to Mr Webster:

Definition of res***ution--Merriam Webster

1: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as
a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner
b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
2: a legal action serving to cause restoration of a previous state

i do not see res***ution there

dberrie2000

02-16-2017, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post res***ution does not equal restoration

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You might want to relate that to Mr Webster:

Definition of res***ution--Merriam Webster

1: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as
a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner
b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
2: a legal action serving to cause restoration of a previous state

i do not see res***ution there

I see both res***ution and restoration--and they are integral to one another--if Mr Webster is correct.

hogan60

02-17-2017, 08:06 AM

The LDS believe one is saved by God's grace. That begs but one question, for me.

Who does God give this grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The book of Hebrews was not written to Christians or even Gentiles. It was written to Jewish people. Some of them were believers, but a lot of them were still on the fence; they couldn’t turn their back on Judaism and the Law. They were having problems understanding that Jesus was God the Son, the Creator of everything. So Hebrews was written to lift who the Son really was. The obedience in Heb.5:9 concerning those who obey Him is not that regarding commandments, rules, and regulations. It is not obedience to the law. It is "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5). God wants us to obey Him by believing in Christ.

We need to understand the purpose for the letter and to whom the letter was written. There's nothing in Hebrews about the cross. About the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Nothing about the church or the body of Christ because it wasn't written to Christians.

hogan60

02-17-2017, 08:28 AM

His claims were faith alone theology is false--which is the claim of the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Joseph Smith believed in faith alone--as it differentiates from the Mosaic Law--but not faith alone theology--and neither does the Biblical text:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

What exactly will God reward Christians for? Works that they did as born again believers in His Son. The works of the unsaved mean nothing. They have have no reward and will be judged by Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

As for James 2:24, we cannot pull out one verse and try to make a doctrine out of it. James wrote to Jews, the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Jews under the kingdom economy. These Jewish believers had not yet heard or understood Paul’s Gospel of Grace.

You are making the error of using those verses that are not written to grace age Christian believers.

dberrie2000

02-17-2017, 10:57 AM

The book of Hebrews was not written to Christians or even Gentiles. It was written to Jewish people. Some of them were believers, but a lot of them were still on the fence; they couldn’t turn their back on Judaism and the Law. They were having problems understanding that Jesus was God the Son, the Creator of everything. So Hebrews was written to lift who the Son really was. The obedience in Heb.5:9 concerning those who obey Him is not that regarding commandments, rules, and regulations. It is not obedience to the law. It is "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5). God wants us to obey Him by believing in Christ.

We need to understand the purpose for the letter and to whom the letter was written. There's nothing in Hebrews about the cross. About the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Nothing about the church or the body of Christ because it wasn't written to Christians.

Hi Hogan:

I wasn't aware Christians divided up the Biblical NT into books that are Christian--and books that are......?

I always considered the Biblical NT to be the Word of God--all of it. Why would Paul preach something that was not the gospel?

Hebrews 3:1---King James Version (KJV)
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Hogan--this seems to be one of the typical responses of those whose theology is violated by the scriptures--they seem to embark on a cover and cancel attempt.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

dberrie2000

02-17-2017, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHis claims were faith alone theology is false--which is the claim of the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Joseph Smith believed in faith alone--as it differentiates from the Mosaic Law--but not faith alone theology--and neither does the Biblical text:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

What exactly will God reward Christians for? Works that they did as born again believers in His Son. The works of the unsaved mean nothing. They have have no reward and will be judged by Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

As for James 2:24, we cannot pull out one verse and try to make a doctrine out of it. James wrote to Jews, the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Jews under the kingdom economy. These Jewish believers had not yet heard or understood Paul’s Gospel of Grace.

You are making the error of using those verses that are not written to grace age Christian believers.

Hi Hogan:

Jesus Christ--not of the grace age? Interesting.

Was Paul of the grace age?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Corinthians 5:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

hogan60

02-17-2017, 02:28 PM

Hi Hogan:

I wasn't aware Christians divided up the Biblical NT into books that are Christian--and books that are......?

I always considered the Biblical NT to be the Word of God--all of it. Why would Paul preach something that was not the gospel?

Hebrews 3:1---King James Version (KJV)
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Hogan--this seems to be one of the typical responses of those whose theology is violated by the scriptures--they seem to embark on a cover and cancel attempt.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Can you tell me to whom Hebrews was written? Who was James writing to? Who did Peter write to? Does the bible say they were Christians? YES or NO?

Letter to the Hebrews means just that. It was written to Hebrews. (Jews)

James 1: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes (Jews) which are scattered abroad, greeting."

1 Peter 1: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout (Jews) the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.."

Yes the ENTIRE Holy Bible IS the word of God.

dberrie, you don't need any other book(s)! Learn how to study the Bible. Get a good study bible and concordance. Study God's dealings with Israel in the OT (Covenant) and Christ's gospel of grace that Paul taught in the New Covenant.

DrDavidT

02-17-2017, 05:43 PM

The book of Hebrews was not written to Christians or even Gentiles. It was written to Jewish people. Some of them were believers, but a lot of them were still on the fence; they couldn’t turn their back on Judaism and the Law. They were having problems understanding that Jesus was God the Son, the Creator of everything. So Hebrews was written to lift who the Son really was. The obedience in Heb.5:9 concerning those who obey Him is not that regarding commandments, rules, and regulations. It is not obedience to the law. It is "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5). God wants us to obey Him by believing in Christ.

We need to understand the purpose for the letter and to whom the letter was written. There's nothing in Hebrews about the cross. About the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Nothing about the church or the body of Christ because it wasn't written to Christians.

The purpose of each biblical book is to instruct all people about God, history, his revelations, instructions, commands and so on. They are for all people of every culture, civilization and generation. The audience for the biblical books, including Hebrews, is the Christian for only the Christian has the Spirit of truth helping them understand what God is saying. Now not every person claiming to be a believer has the spirit of truth. There doesn't have to be anything in Hebrews about the cross, death resurrection, etc. of Jesus or about the church for God does not have t be redundant nor does he keep people at square one. There are other things God's followers need to learn so that they can grow into strong, mature spiritual adults.

DrDavidT

02-17-2017, 05:46 PM

Can you tell me to whom Hebrews was written? Who was James writing to? Who did Peter write to? Does the bible say they were Christians? YES or NO?

Letter to the Hebrews means just that. It was written to Hebrews. (Jews)

James 1: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes (Jews) which are scattered abroad, greeting."

1 Peter 1: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout (Jews) the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.."

Yes the ENTIRE Holy Bible IS the word of God.

dberrie, you don't need any other book(s)! Learn how to study the Bible. Get a good study bible and concordance. Study God's dealings with Israel in the OT (Covenant) and Christ's gospel of grace that Paul taught in the New Covenant.

well here is one answer

Recipients

The letter was addressed primarily to Jewish converts who were familiar with the OT and who were being tempted to revert to Judaism or to Judaize the gospel (cf. Gal 2:14). Some have suggested that these professing Jewish Christians were thinking of merging with a Jewish sect, such as the one at Qumran near the Dead Sea. It has also been suggested that the recipients were from the "large number of priests who became obedient to the faith" (Ac 6:7).

http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/

Actually I will restate my previous point, Hebrews, like every other book of the Bible, was written for all believers. There is no limitation on the audience. if you think there is then you have a major problem in understanding the Bible and find yourself having no scripture to guide your life and help you grow in the Lord.

hogan60

02-18-2017, 04:47 AM

The purpose of each biblical book is to instruct all people about God, history, his revelations, instructions, commands and so on. They are for all people of every culture, civilization and generation. The audience for the biblical books, including Hebrews, is the Christian for only the Christian has the Spirit of truth helping them understand what God is saying. Now not every person claiming to be a believer has the spirit of truth. There doesn't have to be anything in Hebrews about the cross, death resurrection, etc. of Jesus or about the church for God does not have t be redundant nor does he keep people at square one. There are other things God's followers need to learn so that they can grow into strong, mature spiritual adults.

Hi David, Absolutely the Holy Bible is to instruct all people. We can learn from every book in the Bible including the OT. However, the thing we need to understand is that letters such as Hebrews or James for example, do not mention the way of salvation. There's no "Roman Road" so to speak. Thus, when a religious group, or even some on this forum, try to defend their faith by using James to claim he taught a works theology, they are sadly mistaken. We need to be able to explain what James was actually saying to these Jews he wrote to. Did he actually tell Christians that faith without works is dead? Instead of using Paul's letters to find the way of salvation, they use these other epistles that do not mention anything about it. A common error is not knowing to whom the letter was written and the purpose for it. Yes, we Christians can glean much from James and every other book in the Bible. Its all God-breathed.

Absolutely, one must be born again to understand the scriptures and in order to use the scriptures to witness to the lost.

hogan60

02-18-2017, 04:55 AM

well here is one answer

http://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/

Actually I will restate my previous point, Hebrews, like every other book of the Bible, was written for all believers. There is no limitation on the audience. if you think there is then you have a major problem in understanding the Bible and find yourself having no scripture to guide your life and help you grow in the Lord.

Hi David, I was asking these questions to dberrie. But nice to hear from you. You seem to be misunderstanding my point. I never said there was a limitation on the audience. Yes, the Holy Bible was written for all believers. Hebrews was not directed to the Church but, rather it’s directed to Jewish believers many of whom were still on the fence and not quite able to break from Judaism and law keeping, etc. I was explaining to someone on here that there's no church language in Hebrews or the way to salvation. This is not a letter one uses to show salvation by faith. Rather the author is trying to convince these Jewish believers who Jesus Christ really is: God the Son.

hogan60

02-18-2017, 07:32 AM

When is earth going to experience the res***ution of all things? (Acts 3:21) During the Tribulation when the curse will be lifted. This earth is going to be restored to its original condition in the Garden of Eden before sin entered.

dberrie2000

02-18-2017, 12:20 PM

When is earth going to experience the res***ution of all things? (Acts 3:21)

Hello Hogan:

It does not identify the exact time--only that it is a future event--and one involving Jesus Christ, possibly--such as the "first vision".

DrDavidT

02-18-2017, 06:42 PM

Hi David, Absolutely the Holy Bible is to instruct all people. We can learn from every book in the Bible including the OT. However, the thing we need to understand is that letters such as Hebrews or James for example, do not mention the way of salvation. There's no "Roman Road" so to speak. Thus, when a religious group, or even some on this forum, try to defend their faith by using James to claim he taught a works theology, they are sadly mistaken. We need to be able to explain what James was actually saying to these Jews he wrote to. Did he actually tell Christians that faith without works is dead? Instead of using Paul's letters to find the way of salvation, they use these other epistles that do not mention anything about it. A common error is not knowing to whom the letter was written and the purpose for it. Yes, we Christians can glean much from James and every other book in the Bible. Its all God-breathed.

Absolutely, one must be born again to understand the scriptures and in order to use the scriptures to witness to the lost.

Again, both James and Hebrews, along with any other book of the Bible do not need nor have to have any mentioning of salvation. God wants his people to go beyond square one as they need to grow and mature in their faith. No we do not need to explain that because James was speaking to everyone not just the Jews.Anyone will use any part of the Bible to justify their alternative beliefs, James and Hebrews are not exceptional in this.

Again, the audience is all beievers not just the Jews and the purpose is to make sure all believers get on the right path, hold the right beliefs that help them grow in their faith in Jesus.

DrDavidT

02-18-2017, 06:44 PM

Hi David, I was asking these questions to dberrie. But nice to hear from you. You seem to be misunderstanding my point. I never said there was a limitation on the audience. Yes, the Holy Bible was written for all believers. Hebrews was not directed to the Church but, rather it’s directed to Jewish believers many of whom were still on the fence and not quite able to break from Judaism and law keeping, etc. I was explaining to someone on here that there's no church language in Hebrews or the way to salvation. This is not a letter one uses to show salvation by faith. Rather the author is trying to convince these Jewish believers who Jesus Christ really is: God the Son.

I know you were but I am allowed to participate if I so choose. Actually, your wording indicates a limitation on the audience and allows for people to dismiss the different books of the Bible because 'they were not addressed to them.' We have 'fence sitters' today as well. You can by using Hebrews 11. Evangelism is not the only duty of the church member.

hogan60

02-19-2017, 05:08 AM

Again, both James and Hebrews, along with any other book of the Bible do not need nor have to have any mentioning of salvation. God wants his people to go beyond square one as they need to grow and mature in their faith. No we do not need to explain that because James was speaking to everyone not just the Jews.Anyone will use any part of the Bible to justify their alternative beliefs, James and Hebrews are not exceptional in this.

Again, the audience is all beievers not just the Jews and the purpose is to make sure all believers get on the right path, hold the right beliefs that help them grow in their faith in Jesus.

You still are misunderstanding my point. When I say there's no plan of salvation in Hebrews or James, I mean we do not use those when witnessing to the lost. Rather we use scriptures such as Romans or Galatians. I never said throw out Hebrews and James. No, ALL scripture is profitable for reproof, correction, etc.

DrDavidT

02-19-2017, 06:32 PM

You still are misunderstanding my point. When I say there's no plan of salvation in Hebrews or James, I mean we do not use those when witnessing to the lost. Rather we use scriptures such as Romans or Galatians. I never said throw out Hebrews and James. No, ALL scripture is profitable for reproof, correction, etc.

But again we have no instruction to use every book of the Bible to explain the way of salvation.

hogan60

02-20-2017, 04:48 AM

But again we have no instruction to use every book of the Bible to explain the way of salvation.

Hi David, Christ's Gospel is a simple Gospel that even a child can understand it and find salvation. Sadly, there are many who have been drawn to another gospel which is a false one that leads to everlasting condemnation. These adherents of this false gospel often will use the same scriptures over and over to try to make their case or doctrine. They go to the same verses in James or Hebrews for example to explain why they believe "works" is necessary for salvation. The point I was making is that the way to salvation is NOT in those verses. I point out Paul/s writings on grace and faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Do I ever use Hebrews and James in other discussions? Absolutely.

DrDavidT

02-20-2017, 06:40 PM

Hi David, Christ's Gospel is a simple Gospel that even a child can understand it and find salvation. Sadly, there are many who have been drawn to another gospel which is a false one that leads to everlasting condemnation. These adherents of this false gospel often will use the same scriptures over and over to try to make their case or doctrine. They go to the same verses in James or Hebrews for example to explain why they believe "works" is necessary for salvation. The point I was making is that the way to salvation is NOT in those verses. I point out Paul/s writings on grace and faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Do I ever use Hebrews and James in other discussions? Absolutely.

Why are you talking to me like I do not know anything? I pointed out a couple of points and you do not seem to grasp that concept.

DrDavidT

02-20-2017, 06:41 PM

Hogan-- this thread is about evidence for the Mormon faith. Please stick to the topic. Do you have any links that provide evidence for the Mormon cult?

dberrie2000

02-20-2017, 08:11 PM

Hogan-- this thread is about evidence for the Mormon faith. Please stick to the topic. Do you have any links that provide evidence for the Mormon cult?

There seems to be quite a bit of evidence for the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

DrDavidT

02-21-2017, 05:21 PM

There seems to be quite a bit of evidence for the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

that is not evidence, maybe you need to take a cl*** on what is actual evidence.

DrDavidT

02-21-2017, 05:22 PM

be brave learn to read things that go contrary to mormon ideology

hogan60

02-22-2017, 04:55 AM

Hogan-- this thread is about evidence for the Mormon faith. Please stick to the topic. Do you have any links that provide evidence for the Mormon cult?

Hi David, I don't use links. the internet has a lot of errors and untruths which can be confusing. I have the Holy Bible as my source for Truth. I believe in witnessing to the lost in love. I don't really see that happening on here. What I do see is a lot of arguing, debate, anger and criticism. I don't know of anyone who ever got saved through such tactics. They really don't work.

What brought you to this site and the Mormonism forum in particular?

dberrie2000

02-22-2017, 06:24 AM

be brave learn to read things that go contrary to mormon ideology

Hi David:

You still have not engaged my challenge--and list for us what you find in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

DrDavidT

02-23-2017, 06:15 PM

Hi David, I don't use links. the internet has a lot of errors and untruths which can be confusing. I have the Holy Bible as my source for Truth. I believe in witnessing to the lost in love. I don't really see that happening on here. What I do see is a lot of arguing, debate, anger and criticism. I don't know of anyone who ever got saved through such tactics. They really don't work.

What brought you to this site and the Mormonism forum in particular?

This is a discussion forum not a street preaching outlet.

That is none of your business. and stay on topic.

alanmolstad

02-23-2017, 06:49 PM

This is a discussion forum not a street preaching outlet.

......

well....over the years, we have seen a few preachers stop by the forum...

hogan60

02-23-2017, 07:02 PM

This is a discussion forum not a street preaching outlet.

That is none of your business. and stay on topic.

So you're not here to witness to Mormons.

alanmolstad

02-23-2017, 07:07 PM

So you're not here to witness to Mormons.

Im not....

I really dont care for any of the Mormon topics.
Im not really the "Mormon answer guy"

I dont come to this forum to change anyone's mind,
Rather I enjoy being asked questions as it helps me dig deeper into what I believe and why i believe it.

I dont really ask too many questions because I have always doubted the usefulness of the answers I get here.,....

hogan60

02-24-2017, 04:22 AM

Im not....

I really dont care for any of the Mormon topics.
Im not really the "Mormon answer guy"

I dont come to this forum to change anyone's mind,
Rather I enjoy being asked questions as it helps me dig deeper into what I believe and why i believe it.

I dont really ask too many questions because I have always doubted the usefulness of the answers I get here.,....

Ok that's cool.

alanmolstad

02-24-2017, 04:39 AM

Ok that's cool.

one has to be carefull not to invest themselves too much in thinking that their on-line time is actually a ministry.
I mean that its fine to understand that every place you go is a reflection on your life and your religion, but it does get a bit much when you think that everything you currently think should be just as important to everyone else as it is to you.

Your life and your personal ministry mean a lot to you personally,,,but little to anyone else on the internet.

But we do tend to see some people that think every word they post should be seen as being equal to scripture.
We get people here like that many times over the years.

What happens is that they come barging into this forum and are here to set the world right.

They got a few bible verses to share, and a few books on how to present their religion to others, and they start attacking others...sometimes/many times in very personal offensive ways.

But what happens next is that the other guests simply dont react the way they were shown they should in their outreach books.
People simply never stop bickering right back at them.

In the outreach books and websites that people use all the time, it must be written from the stand point of showing a person, step by step how to go from one view of God and salvation to a different better view of God and salvation.

The whole book is written in an "order"...step1...step 2....step3...step 4, etc.

Well, thats not how things go on-line at all !

In real life, you never actually get to step 2.

In real life, you try to go to step 2 all the time...but suddenly you have to go back to step 1 again.....only to later think you can go to step 2, but you cant, for the other person is still stuck at step 1 and that's it...end of story.

and thus...we arrive at what actually is the downfall to many here that come thinking they are here to do outreach and missions...."FRUSTRATION"

For it is the amount of frustration that get people in trouble,
Frustration at not being able to get to step 2.
Frustration at not getting any help from someone else when they keep running into people that will refuse to follow the "plan".

I have always approached on-line forums as just being a place where I get to flesh out my own views.
I like to be asked questions because it gives me a chance to put down in writing the things I believe, and in doing this I tend to dig deeper into what I believe and why.

I judge my success here by seeing now how I really have deepened my understanding into the things I believe.

Over the years I have gotten a chance to write on topics I never would have dug into all that much except for here.

so yes...Perhaps I need to amend what I said at the top of this post.
Perhaps this site is a very good place for my mission work,,,its just that the main person being helped here is not the "other guy" its myself.

I dont know how the others are doing, but I can say that I have grown while posting on the Walter Martin forum...

I cant say for sure I have seen others draw closer to Christ while here, but I can say I have.

I have no idea and no way to know for sure if anything I have ever posted on this forum has actually helped another person understand the Christian faith better or not?...

But I can say that what I have posted here has greatly helped me understand the true Christian faith, and I now have in deeper and more meaningful path that I walk.

hogan60

02-24-2017, 05:26 AM

one has to be carefull not to invest themselves too much in thinking that their on-line time is actually a ministry.
I mean that its fine to understand that every place you go is a reflection on your life and your religion, but it does get a bit much when you think that everything you currently think should be just as important to everyone else as it is to you.

Your life and your personal ministry mean a lot to you personally,,,but little to anyone else on the internet.

But we do tend to see some people that think every word they post should be seen as being equal to scripture.
We get people here like that many times over the years.

What happens is that they come barging into this forum and are here to set the world right.

They got a few bible verses to share, and a few books on how to present their religion to others, and they start attacking others...sometimes/many times in very personal offensive ways.

But what happens next is that the other guests simply dont react the way they were shown they should in their outreach books.
People simply never stop bickering right back at them.

In the outreach books and websites that people use all the time, it must be written from the stand point of showing a person, step by step how to go from one view of God and salvation to a different better view of God and salvation.

The whole book is written in an "order"...step1...step 2....step3...step 4, etc.

Well, thats not how things go on-line at all !

In real life, you never actually get to step 2.

In real life, you try to go to step 2 all the time...but suddenly you have to go back to step 1 again.....only to later think you can go to step 2, but you cant, for the other person is still stuck at step 1 and that's it...end of story.

and thus...we arrive at what actually is the downfall to many here that come thinking they are here to do outreach and missions...."FRUSTRATION"

For it is the amount of frustration that get people in trouble,
Frustration at not being able to get to step 2.
Frustration at not getting any help from someone else when they keep running into people that will refuse to follow the "plan".

I have always approached on-line forums as just being a place where I get to flesh out my own views.
I like to be asked questions because it gives me a chance to put down in writing the things I believe, and in doing this I tend to dig deeper into what I believe and why.

I judge my success here by seeing now how I really have deepened my understanding into the things I believe.

Over the years I have gotten a chance to write on topics I never would have dug into all that much except for here.

so yes...Perhaps I need to amend what I said at the top of this post.
Perhaps this site is a very good place for my mission work,,,its just that the main person being helped here is not the "other guy" its myself.

I dont know how the others are doing, but I can say that I have grown while posting on the Walter Martin forum...

I cant say for sure I have seen others draw closer to Christ while here, but I can say I have.

I have no idea and no way to know for sure if anything I have ever posted on this forum has actually helped another person understand the Christian faith better or not?...

But I can say that what I have posted here has greatly helped me understand the true Christian faith, and I now have in deeper and more meaningful path that I walk.

We may never know this side of heaven who came to Christ because of something we shared. God promised that His word would not return to Him void. I am ever mindful of the 'lurkers' The ones that never post but read what we write. I believe God can and does send a spiritually hungry person. I have learned a lot too being on forums such as this one.

DrDavidT

02-24-2017, 05:52 PM

So you're not here to witness to Mormons.

witness takes many forms

you strike me as naive

DrDavidT

02-24-2017, 05:53 PM

We may never know this side of heaven who came to Christ because of something we shared. God promised that His word would not return to Him void. I am ever mindful of the 'lurkers' The ones that never post but read what we write. I believe God can and does send a spiritually hungry person. I have learned a lot too being on forums such as this one.

there is a process of winning someone to Christ. It can take up to 3 people, or more, one plants, another waters and still someone to harvest

hogan60

02-25-2017, 04:41 AM

there is a process of winning someone to Christ. It can take up to 3 people, or more, one plants, another waters and still someone to harvest

Sure, David, but you left out the work of the Holy Spirit and our prayers that He will open the eyes and hearts of these lost people. If one isn't planting in love, its wasted. I rarely see love and patience on this forum. Everyone wants to be right instead of being teachable. Arguing in circles and name calling. Is this Christ likeness?

dberrie2000

02-25-2017, 05:35 AM

hogan60

02-25-2017, 06:08 AM

That's endemic to most sites which are critical of the LDS church, IMO.

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

hogan60

02-25-2017, 06:09 AM

That's endemic to most sites which are critical of the LDS church, IMO.

Duplicate post.

dberrie2000

02-25-2017, 08:49 AM

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

Hi Hogan:

I agree with your post here--and I do appreciate your patience.

Hogan--the problem with those who claim to defend the scriptures is, IMO--they commonly use the scriptures very sparingly--and label all the scriptures which testify against them as--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc.

I find the critics are, all too often-- unwilling to face what the scriptures testify to--and, on top of that-- they know precious little about the Biblical text.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Christian

02-25-2017, 10:33 AM

I would say the Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit, but I know you don't believe in that type of witness, but prefer archaeological findings or other things that have little to do with faith.

Demons bear FALSE witness, but we CHRISTIANS (not-mormons; they are NOT Christians in the historical sense, they just follow 'a' christ) all have the Fruit of the Spirit (That is a SINGULAR term btw)

God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD (you know. . .that stuff that CAME from God, not stuff MADE UP less than 200 years ago by joe smith)

Archaeological findings do not PRODUCE faith, but SUPPORT faith.

Of course, we KNOW there are no archaeological findings to support EVEN ONE PERSON, PLACE, or EVENT specific to the book of mormon. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THERE to support smith's fairytales.)

dberrie2000

02-25-2017, 11:39 AM

God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD (

Hi Christian:

That's real interesting, Christian:

John 16:13--King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

DrDavidT

02-25-2017, 06:33 PM

Sure, David, but you left out the work of the Holy Spirit and our prayers that He will open the eyes and hearts of these lost people. If one isn't planting in love, its wasted. I rarely see love and patience on this forum. Everyone wants to be right instead of being teachable. Arguing in circles and name calling. Is this Christ likeness?

I did not leave that out, it is part of the whole action. you ***ume something and do not clarify. You can't see love in binary and stop thinking everyone is not teachable when they do not respond according to your ideas. being teachable does not mean one has to be taught by everyone else especially naive unknowing people. I do not name call, watch yourself there

DrDavidT

02-25-2017, 06:34 PM

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

so you think you are the only one who knows or does this? One thing I have noticed over the years is how believers who think they are God's gift to the world violate the very principles they accuse others of violating. Do you really think the believers who came here before you could not recognize flse teaching? Your insulting at***ude turns me off of discussing further with you

DrDavidT

02-25-2017, 06:39 PM

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

and again, this is a thread on the EVIDENCE that mormonism is true. do you have any? if not you are off topic and derailing the thread. learn how to post before judging others who came before you

hogan60

02-26-2017, 06:24 AM

Hi Hogan:

I agree with your post here--and I do appreciate your patience.

Hogan--the problem with those who claim to defend the scriptures is, IMO--they commonly use the scriptures very sparingly--and label all the scriptures which testify against them as--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc.

I find the critics are, all too often-- unwilling to face what the scriptures testify to--and, on top of that-- they know precious little about the Biblical text.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I can understand your frustration. I have learned a lot over the years. One thing I learned is how to effectively study the Bible. Sometimes it makes a big difference to look at the original language such as Greek to get the real meaning. A concordance is helpful too. But if one sticks with books that their church wrote, then they're looking at the Bible through the eyes of that church.

Take James for example. he was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. He gives no indication that he knew of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles or the Gospel of grace that Paul taught. Its believed that Jame's letter was the first bit of NT that was ever written. He was still teaching the legal aspects of Judaism. When we have these types of information, it can better help us to understand what the author is saying, to whom and why.

Peter also wrote to Jewish believers in the kingdom gospel. They are never called christians. Believers were first called Christians in Antioch, not Jerusalem. His letter, 1John and James are known as Jewish epistles. They were written to these Jewish believers who were facing persecution. They're scattered from Jerusalem. They believed the tribulation and Christ's return could happen in their lifetime. We have to know the time frame of the letters in the Bible.

This is why just merely quoting Scriptures on here doesn't really work. Many are trying to defend their church or religion and the discussion goes around in circles. We must never read the Bible through the eyes of our church's teachings. But rather, allow the Bible to teach us.

Christian

02-26-2017, 08:26 AM

berry posted:

Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171535#post171535)
God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD
(Hi Christian:

That's real interesting, Christian:

John 16:13--King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[/QUOTE]

So you DON'T BELIEVE in demons, or that they can fool you into thinking they are the Spirit of truth? I see. . .

The Spirit of truth (the HOLY Spirit, the REAL ONE, not joey smith's fake one) GUIDES US TO WHAT GOD SAID IN SCRIPTURE.

GOD said:

Rom 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV
IF you want to pretend that faith in JESUS CHRIST comes by 'testimonies' of your cultists, I can't force you to change to agree with God instead.

dberrie2000

02-26-2017, 11:49 AM

So you DON'T BELIEVE in demons,....

Of course I do--we have millions of those who claim to be Christians--preaching there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for God's grace unto life,

which, for me--is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind--but, they preach it as the gospel of truth.

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

BigJulie

02-26-2017, 01:04 PM

Demons bear FALSE witness, but we CHRISTIANS (not-mormons; they are NOT Christians in the historical sense, they just follow 'a' christ) all have the Fruit of the Spirit (That is a SINGULAR term btw)

Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness. So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" :D and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.

God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD (you know. . .that stuff that CAME from God, not stuff MADE UP less than 200 years ago by joe smith)

This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Archaeological findings do not PRODUCE faith, but SUPPORT faith.

Of course, we KNOW there are no archaeological findings to support EVEN ONE PERSON, PLACE, or EVENT specific to the book of mormon. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THERE to support smith's fairytales.) So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Christian

02-26-2017, 03:54 PM

big julie posted:

Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png
(http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171535#post171535)Demons bear FALSE witness, but we CHRISTIANS (not-mormons; they are NOT Christians in the historical sense, they just follow 'a' christ) all have the Fruit of the Spirit (That is a SINGULAR term btw)Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness.

So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

And EXACTLY WHAT IS THAT WILL?

Oh yes, it is to have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE, not false christs like the smith one)

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" :D and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.

'Fruits' of the Spirit? According to the BIBLE the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is SINGULAR FRUIT, not fruitS

This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Of course Jesus is NOT talking about 'praying about it' then 'feeling a burning in your bosom' now IS HE?

You CANNOT AVOID the facts:
1) Eph 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
NKJV

2) Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Why do you keep making that COMPLETELY HAIRBRAINED AND FALSE STATEMENT? I have faith in Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Savior. (NOT your demonic 'spirit-brother-of-satan-christ', but the REAL ONE, the One Who CREATED the angels, INCLUDING THE FALLEN angel, satan. The BIBLICAL Jesus is satan's CREATOR, NOT HIS 'spirit-ANYTHING.'

I have ABSOLUTE, BIBLICAL FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND I have archaeological findings in addition to that.

Sorry that you are lacking, following a false prophet, a false christ, and have nothing but the fairytales of joey smith to hang your hat on (besides your emotional 'tummy tug,' which you could get from watching a movie).

You apparently prayed, and got a 'yes' answer in your mind, and a tummy tug

I, and many others like me, prayed in earnest, looking ONLY for whatever God wanted me to know, and I got a "NO!!!" answer.

Sorry, but your god gave you a phoney 'test.' The mormon god is a phoney god.

hogan60

02-27-2017, 04:50 AM

Of course I do--we have millions of those who claim to be Christians--preaching there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for God's grace unto life,

which, for me--is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind--but, they preach it as the gospel of truth.

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hi dberrie, Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Born again Christians are not saying we should never obey God. When we become Christians we are to do good works. But its not for salvation. Its not to try to be worthy. The christian is already forgiven. That's Grace.

Romans 1:8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The difference between born again Christians and Mormons is that Mormons are trying to do all they can do through self effort. When they fail, that's when they hope Christ's atoning work (grace) comes in. Christians believe, as the Holy Bible teaches, that we are all sinners. All have fallen short.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Only the shed blood of Christ saves us. We rely solely on Him and His finished work at the cross. Not on ourselves.

Grace doesn't click in through our obedience. That's working for something. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It means we can't earn it through self effort. Its God's free gift because He loves us.

hogan60

02-27-2017, 05:09 AM

Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness. So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" :D and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.

This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Because Mormonism claims they have restored the gospel which somehow got lost despite the work of Jesus and the apostles and their followers, the burden of proof does lie with the Mormon church. Its not lack of faith on the part of Christians, because we do have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Its we do not have any faith in another gospel. Mormons are asking us to believe in something totally different and yet present no concrete evidence. That's where archaeology comes in.Yet, you don't even have that and the Bible has a ton of archaeological support.

Christ promised to preserve His church and He does not lie.

Mtt. 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

That's plain english. Nothing, not even hell can destroy His church.

alanmolstad

02-27-2017, 05:43 AM

hogan60

02-27-2017, 06:08 AM

Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness. So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" :D and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.

This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Hi Julie, Where does God ever require blind faith? The Bible says the opposite.

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God gives us plenty of evidence that we are without excuse not to believe in Him.

To just blindly accept Mormonism even though there's no evidence for the need of the Mormon church or for any restoration is not the way God works. God went to great lengths and sacrifice to send His Son that all of us are without excuse not to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

dberrie2000

02-27-2017, 06:21 AM

Hi dberrie, Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Born again Christians are not saying we should never obey God. When we become Christians we are to do good works. But its not for salvation. Its not to try to be worthy. The christian is already forgiven. That's Grace.

Romans 1:8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The difference between born again Christians and Mormons is that Mormons are trying to do all they can do through self effort. When they fail, that's when they hope Christ's atoning work (grace) comes in. Christians believe, as the Holy Bible teaches, that we are all sinners. All have fallen short.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Only the shed blood of Christ saves us. We rely solely on Him and His finished work at the cross. Not on ourselves.

Grace doesn't click in through our obedience. That's working for something. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It means we can't earn it through self effort. Its God's free gift because He loves us.

Hi Hogan:

Is God extending His Blood to those who walk in the light working for something? Is that Blood unmerited favor, if it is conditional upon one walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Did Paul misundertand the doctrine of "unmerited favor" when it came to God's grace?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hogan--how do you collate all those scriptures with Ephesians2:8-9?

As I have stated before--the LDS, and some scholars--now believe when Paul used the term "works", "works of the Law", "the Law", etc--that was a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.(See the New Perspective on Paul)

How do you collate them? Taking one scripture and pitting it against the rest not only does not make one's point--it renders the Bible an unreliable source of truth.

hogan60

02-27-2017, 07:18 AM

Hi Hogan:

Is God extending His Blood to those who walk in the light working for something? Is that Blood unmerited favor, if it is conditional upon one walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Did Paul misundertand the doctrine of "unmerited favor" when it came to God's grace?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hogan--how do you collate all those scriptures with Ephesians2:8-9?

As I have stated before--the LDS, and some scholars--now believe when Paul used the term "works", "works of the Law", "the Law", etc--that was a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.(See the New Perspective on Paul)

How do you collate them? Taking one scripture and pitting it against the rest not only does not make one's point--it renders the Bible an unreliable source of truth.

dberrie, are you saying that Paul contradicted himself when he said in Eph. 2:8,9 it is by grace we are saved and not of works? Do you really believe Paul turned around and taught something completely different?

As for 2Thess.1:7-9, Paul is talking about unbelievers in the Day of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus, therefore, they don't believe in His Gospel. Obeying the Gospel is believing (having faith) in it. When we speak about obeying the Gospel we are referring to what one must do in order to be justified.

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

dberrie2000

02-27-2017, 10:17 AM

dberrie, are you saying that Paul contradicted himself when he said in Eph. 2:8,9 it is by grace we are saved and not of works? Do you really believe Paul turned around and taught something completely different?

Hi Hogan:

Two points here:

1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?

As for 2Thess.1:7-9, Paul is talking about unbelievers in the Day of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus, therefore, they don't believe in His Gospel. Obeying the Gospel is believing (having faith) in it. When we speak about obeying the Gospel we are referring to what one must do in order to be justified.

Can one be saved without being justified?

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.

hogan60

02-27-2017, 12:25 PM

Hi Hogan:

Two points here:

1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?

Can one be saved without being justified?

Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.

When we believe in Christ's atoning work at the cross, we are then saved (have salvation). We are justified the moment we put our faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Justification includes forgiveness of sins, the removal of guilt and imputation of righteousness. All of this takes place the moment you trust Christ for salvation.

The source of justification is God's free grace. Romans 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The ground of justification is Christ's blood. Romans 5:9 says, "Much more ... being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

The condition for justification is faith in Christ. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

The evidence of justification is good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Justification is the result of the grace of God reaching down. It is not the result of any works that we do.

dberrie2000

02-28-2017, 05:11 AM

When we believe in Christ's atoning work at the cross, we are then saved (have salvation). We are justified the moment we put our faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Justification includes forgiveness of sins, the removal of guilt and imputation of righteousness. All of this takes place the moment you trust Christ for salvation.

The source of justification is God's free grace. Romans 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

The ground of justification is Christ's blood. Romans 5:9 says, "Much more ... being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

The condition for justification is faith in Christ. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

The evidence of justification is good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Justification is the result of the grace of God reaching down. It is not the result of any works that we do.

Hi Hogan:

All of mankind was justified by His Blood:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all were absolved from the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and now--are judged according to their own choices, and not Adam's.

So--are those who walk in the light--those who have faith in Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Where does it state in the Biblical NT--one is saved the "moment we put our faith in Christ"?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Were these saved previous to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 19:16-19----King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

hogan60

02-28-2017, 05:30 AM

Hi Hogan:

Where does it state in the Biblical NT--one is saved the "moment we put our faith in Christ"?

.

Because Jesus Christ alone saves.

Acts 4:12, " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

God promises us eternal life when we believe in Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:1 "Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are justified by faith in Christ.

"For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

The moment you put your faith in Christ, who died for your sins and rose again, you have eternal life and will live forever with God! Eternal life is a gift, given by God, to anyone who will put their trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. This is called grace, because God is giving us something we don’t deserve-life forever with Him.

hogan60

02-28-2017, 05:40 AM

Hi Hogan:

All of mankind was justified by His Blood:

Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--all were absolved from the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and now--are judged according to their own choices, and not Adam's.

So--are those who walk in the light--those who have faith in Christ?

.

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

Yes, Christ died for every man, woman and child. The offer of salvation is universal, but only to those who believe (John 3:18).

Let's say you have a million dollars in the bank. If you don't believe that you do and never make the transaction, you will never benefit from it.

All of mankind was not justified by His blood. ONLY those who believe on Christ alone for salvation.

dberrie2000

02-28-2017, 06:13 AM

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

Yes, Christ died for every man, woman and child. The offer of salvation is universal, but only to those who believe (John 3:18).

Let's say you have a million dollars in the bank. If you don't believe that you do and never make the transaction, you will never benefit from it.

All of mankind was not justified by His blood. ONLY those who believe on Christ alone for salvation.

The scriptures testify God shed His Blood for all of mankind:

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That absolved all from the condemnation of the Fall--and brought us all under the gospel of grace--as He bought us with a price.

Those who God extends this Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--are these:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But [B]if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--but it did make it possible for sins to be forgiven, under the gospel of grace.

And that, through our obedience to Christ:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

hogan60

02-28-2017, 06:51 AM

The scriptures testify God shed His Blood for all of mankind:

1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That absolved all from the condemnation of the Fall--and brought us all under the gospel of grace--as He bought us with a price.

Those who God extends this Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--are these:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But [B]if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--but it did make it possible for sins to be forgiven, under the gospel of grace.

And that, through our obedience to Christ:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race. They’re forgiven. But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe. The work of the cross was total in the forgiveness of mankind’s sin. But it does us no good until we appropriate it by faith.

Romans 3:25a

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,.

Jesus Himself is the propitiation and it is again accomplished through our faith

DrDavidT

02-28-2017, 06:05 PM

When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race. They’re forgiven. But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe. The work of the cross was total in the forgiveness of mankind’s sin. But it does us no good until we appropriate it by faith.

Romans 3:25a

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,.

Jesus Himself is the propitiation and it is again accomplished through our faith

a word to the wise:

you have heard the verse-- do not cast pearls before swine--haven't you? those of us who have been here longer than you know who will or won't accept the gospel message and tailor our posts accordingly. a little discernment and wisdom on your part would go a long ways.

dberrie2000

02-28-2017, 06:17 PM

When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race.

Hi Hogan:

I agree--just as the education system is able to educate all men. But to obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria set by the school.

To gain the remission of sins--one has to obey the criteria of the Redeemer:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

They’re forgiven.

Please do show us any scriptures which state all men are forgiven of their sins.

If that is so--then why does God reject these?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe.

If it's finished--then why can't it be done until we believe? Are you saying God left something undone? Unfinished?

Hogan--if the Atonement needed your faith to be complete--it would have failed--for, it took Christ's perfection, plus nothing--and if you added your imperfect faith to it--it would have failed.

hogan60

03-01-2017, 03:14 AM

a word to the wise:

you have heard the verse-- do not cast pearls before swine--haven't you? those of us who have been here longer than you know who will or won't accept the gospel message and tailor our posts accordingly. a little discernment and wisdom on your part would go a long ways.

David, I was on here some years back long before you. I left for a while, but I know the lds on here. No, we cannot know who will come to Christ for salvation and who won't. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in and we should be praying for eyes and understanding to be opened. I have seen hard core believers in false religions come to Christ after many years.

As for discernment and wisdom, where is that when you don't exhibit any love or patience? I have read your posts, David. Your tone is usually angry and condescending. Why is that?

alanmolstad

03-01-2017, 04:49 AM

David, I was on here some years back long before you.....

back in 2011 the forum had some computer issues, and all of the members had to re-sign on...so we all got new names and stuff at that point.
The screen name I have now is different as we all had to get new names, so i just changed the use of Capitals letters of my name.

I remember at the time a few guests got a bit upset as they liked to see how many years each other were members here. (typical boys, always comparing)

DrDavidT

03-01-2017, 06:29 PM

David, I was on here some years back long before you. I left for a while, but I know the lds on here. No, we cannot know who will come to Christ for salvation and who won't. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in and we should be praying for eyes and understanding to be opened. I have seen hard core believers in false religions come to Christ after many years.

As for discernment and wisdom, where is that when you don't exhibit any love or patience? I have read your posts, David. Your tone is usually angry and condescending. Why is that?

You read those emotions into my posts. I do not put them there.

DrDavidT

03-03-2017, 05:06 PM

what happened to all the resident mormons? why did they leave dberrie as their sole witness? surely by now they would have uncovered some evidence for their cultic ideology

alanmolstad

03-03-2017, 05:38 PM

what happened to all the resident mormons? why did they leave dberrie as their sole witness? surely by now they would have uncovered some evidence for their cultic ideology

it does come in streaks to be sure.

It does seem odd how sometimes we have a bunch of people from one religion sorta sweep in and take over...only to all disappear?

Christian

03-04-2017, 02:46 PM

David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Where's your evidence that joey smith's junk is 'res***ution' of ANYTHING?

Where's your proof that he didn't just make it ALL UP HIMSELF?

What is there in the Bible that the lds religion doesn't have? The Jesus Christ that made EVERYTHING including the angels (satan was one of them). The SAME Jesus Christ that is the ONLY FATHERED SON of God the Father (check Matthew 16:18). ALL you have is the lies that joey smith invented about a god who 'was once a man' and is now 'exalted,' and a supposed 'jesus' that is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan.' Your demonic gods and your false prophet have lied to you.

DrDavidT

03-04-2017, 04:32 PM

Where's your evidence that joey smith's junk is 'res***ution' of ANYTHING?

Where's your proof that he didn't just make it ALL UP HIMSELF?

What is there in the Bible that the lds religion doesn't have? The Jesus Christ that made EVERYTHING including the angels (satan was one of them). The SAME Jesus Christ that is the ONLY FATHERED SON of God the Father (check Matthew 16:18). ALL you have is the lies that joey smith invented about a god who 'was once a man' and is now 'exalted,' and a supposed 'jesus' that is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan.' Your demonic gods and your false prophet have lied to you.

two good questions

dberrie2000

03-04-2017, 04:52 PM

Where's your evidence that joey smith's junk is 'res***ution' of ANYTHING?

Where's your proof that he didn't just make it ALL UP HIMSELF?

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

What is there in the Bible that the lds religion doesn't have?

Nothing, as far as salvational doctrines and the Biblical NT go.

The Jesus Christ that made EVERYTHING including the angels (satan was one of them).The SAME Jesus Christ that is the ONLY FATHERED SON of God the Father (check Matthew 16:18).

Then why did Jesus claim man and Himself shared the same God and Father?

John 20:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

DrDavidT

03-04-2017, 04:55 PM

still NOT evidence. you keep posting the same information hoping it will magically change into evidence but it won't work

dberrie2000

03-04-2017, 07:09 PM

still NOT evidence. you keep posting the same information hoping it will magically change into evidence but it won't work

Again--taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

If recorded witnesses of heavenly visitations are not evidence--then the Biblical text can't be considered evidence--right?

DrDavidT

03-05-2017, 05:38 PM

Again--taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

If recorded witnesses of heavenly visitations are not evidence--then the Biblical text can't be considered evidence--right?

You need evidence to support their claim that they actually saw what they saw. All you have done is posted a claim not evidence to support the idea that those claims are true/

For the Bible we have real evidence supporting its words. the mormons have none for their claims

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 08:08 PM

You need evidence to support their claim that they actually saw what they saw.

What is your evidence these did not see what they claimed?

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Christian

03-06-2017, 07:38 AM

What is your evidence these did not see what they claimed?

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

Where is YOUR evidence that they DID see anything. They were the cronies of joey smith and 'in on it' with him.

NONE of them were 'witnesses' to ANYTHING that was ON any plates. NOBODY 'translated' EVEN ONE WORD except joey smith who supposedly looked at a ROCK IN HIS HAT 'waiting' for a 'translation' to appear.

Of course that "translation" has had to have over 4,000 CORRECTIONS made to it since the first printing (EASILY observable once you get photocopies of the first printing for yourself to COMPARE TO THE CURRENT VERSION).

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 09:19 AM

[COLOR=#0000cd]NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 03:50 AM

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions. The BoM is a product of its time. Its a 19th century writing. Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

You need to put your faith in Jesus Christ and not in a man.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 05:53 AM

dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions.

Morning, Hogan:

Mistakes crept in---http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

The earliest works — some of Paul’s Epistles — date to about the middle of the first century. Like the Gospels that followed, they were written by hand, and successors were copied by hand. Mistakes occasionally crept in.

Moreover, with Christianity in its infancy and the earliest Christians still trying to clarify the full meaning of Jesus, his mission and his stories, the texts themselves sometimes changed from generation to generation, said Warren.

As archeologists and historians in later years uncovered more early m****cripts, each one hand-copied from some predecessor, they could see occasional additions or subtractions from a phrase, a verse or a story.

The changes are called “variants.”

Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

But others are more important. They meant something.

For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest m****cripts.

And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.

What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.

A true story

Warren said the story of the adulterous woman in John’s Gospel, for example, seems to be an account of an actual event preserved and treasured by the Christian community.

“People know it, and they like it,” he said. “It’s about a forgiveness that many times is needed in the church. Can you be forgiven on major sins?”

John had not included it, but Christians wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere, Warren said.

Warren said the story wanders across several early John m****cripts, appearing in a variety of places.

It even shows up in two early copies of Luke.

“But probably it was never part of John’s Gospel, in the original form,” he said.

By the 7th century, it had found its current home. It appears today in John 7:53-8:11.

Another change appears in Mark 9:29, when Jesus tells his disciples some demons can be driven out “only by prayer.”

Warren said 3rd century m****cripts added “and fasting” — probably as Christians’ own commentary on the power of that spiritual discipline, which was then becoming standard Christian practice.

In those and other cases, early Christian copiers are probably hoping to clarify a teaching or story for Christian audiences.

In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century, Warren said.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 05:54 AM

Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

Hi Hogan:

All books were written by man--including the Bible.

alanmolstad

03-07-2017, 05:55 AM

dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions. The BoM is a product of its time. Its a 19th century writing. Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

You need to put your faith in Jesus Christ and not in a man.

good point...

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:26 AM

Morning, Hogan:

Mistakes crept in---http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

The earliest works — some of Paul’s Epistles — date to about the middle of the first century. Like the Gospels that followed, they were written by hand, and successors were copied by hand. Mistakes occasionally crept in.

Moreover, with Christianity in its infancy and the earliest Christians still trying to clarify the full meaning of Jesus, his mission and his stories, the texts themselves sometimes changed from generation to generation, said Warren.

As archeologists and historians in later years uncovered more early m****cripts, each one hand-copied from some predecessor, they could see occasional additions or subtractions from a phrase, a verse or a story.

The changes are called “variants.”

Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

But others are more important. They meant something.

For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest m****cripts.

And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.

What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.

A true story

Warren said the story of the adulterous woman in John’s Gospel, for example, seems to be an account of an actual event preserved and treasured by the Christian community.

“People know it, and they like it,” he said. “It’s about a forgiveness that many times is needed in the church. Can you be forgiven on major sins?”

John had not included it, but Christians wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere, Warren said.

Warren said the story wanders across several early John m****cripts, appearing in a variety of places.

It even shows up in two early copies of Luke.

“But probably it was never part of John’s Gospel, in the original form,” he said.

By the 7th century, it had found its current home. It appears today in John 7:53-8:11.

Another change appears in Mark 9:29, when Jesus tells his disciples some demons can be driven out “only by prayer.”

Warren said 3rd century m****cripts added “and fasting” — probably as Christians’ own commentary on the power of that spiritual discipline, which was then becoming standard Christian practice.

In those and other cases, early Christian copiers are probably hoping to clarify a teaching or story for Christian audiences.

In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century, Warren said.

What you cut and pasted is old news. For every link you give, there are hundreds of others which dispute it.

Dberrie, where are those "Mistakes" you claim crept in the Bible? Can you give me specific p***ages?

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:33 AM

Hi Hogan:

All books were written by man--including the Bible.

Then I guess Peter lied when he said: "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Peter 1:21) I guess Paul lied too when he told Timothy that “All Scripture is God-breathed.."

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:40 AM

What you cut and pasted is old news. For every link you give, there are hundreds of others which dispute it.

Dberrie, where are those "Mistakes" you claim crept in the Bible? Can you give me specific p***ages?

No--and neither would I--I don't make an issue out of any claim such as that. I believe it was you who brought up the issue, not me. You won't find that point being initiated by me. It's meaningless, IMO.

Christian

03-07-2017, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

But didn't joey smith CLAIM his bom to be the 'most correct' book on earth? DIDN'T joey smith CLAIM that GOD put the text on the stone and it didn't go away until it was written down CORRECTLY?

Or did that mormon bishop friend of mine lie to me? I guess your bishops don't know your religion very well. . .

Christian

03-07-2017, 04:48 PM

No--and neither would I--I don't make an issue out of any claim such as that. I believe it was you who brought up the issue, not me. You won't find that point being initiated by me. It's meaningless, IMO.

So you ADMIT that there are mistakes in the bom, but you don't care? After all, it is supposedly a 'most perfect book" your god could make, according to smith. . .So I guess it DOESN'T MATTER at all! After all, joey smith made it all up anyway. . .so IT IS meaningless!

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 05:40 PM

So you ADMIT that there are mistakes in the bom, but you don't care?

Hi Christian:

Please go back and reread the posts. My reference--and Hogan's retort-- was to the "mistakes" in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. And, IMO--as I have already stated--anything man lays his hand to--there will be mistakes found therein, including the Book of Mormon.

DrDavidT

03-07-2017, 06:05 PM

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 07:42 AM

so sad that some people have to derail a thread for their own agenda and disrespect the person who started the thread in the first place. such selfish people have no place in public discussions. I will be leaving soon, maybe after a few more posts. I have better things to do than watch my threads be destroyed

Hi David:

IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

But absent in faith alone theology.

DrDavidT

03-08-2017, 11:58 PM

Hi David:

IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

But absent in faith alone theology.

I do not make strawman arguments. my comments are based upon what my old mormon acquaintances told me, my own research into mormonism and other fact filled investigations. all you have done is olympic style avoidance of everything presented because you are afraid to realize how bad your religious cult is.

all the mormons on here have done the same thing. they have closed their minds to the truth about God, Jesus and their own religious cult. they also fail to discuss like adults as they try to convince everyone they believe the bible when in reality everyone knows you do not. the failure of the resident mormons to post what they actually believe and are taught (even in their temple experience) renders discussion useless because the mormons refuse to be honest and continue to use the bible when the bible is the lesser of all mormon religious works

dberrie2000

03-09-2017, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi David:

IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

But absent in faith alone theology.

I do not make strawman arguments. my comments are based upon what my old mormon acquaintances told me, ....

But mine are based on the Biblical scriptures.

Care to engage the above scripture?

all the mormons on here have done the same thing. they have closed their minds to the truth about God, Jesus and their own religious cult. they also fail to discuss like adults as they try to convince everyone they believe the bible when in reality everyone knows you do not. the failure of the resident mormons to post what they actually believe and are taught (even in their temple experience) renders discussion useless because the mormons refuse to be honest and continue to use the bible when the bible is the lesser of all mormon religious works

That amounts to more straw man retorts. Do you use the Bible?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Christian

03-09-2017, 12:24 PM

[QUOTE]Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But mine are based on the Biblical scriptures.

Care to engage the above scripture?

I've done it before, but you just IGNORED IT. The p***age was spoken BY a Jew, TO a Jew, and BOTH WERE UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW AT THE TIME.

So you are trying to MISapply scripture, to PRETEND that Christians are still under the OT LAW.

Do you use the Bible?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

MORE ignorance by berry. WHAT IS the Gospel of God? Oh yes, ACCORDING TO GOD it is. . .

1 Cor 15:1-8
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
NKJV

So the Gospel of God is:

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
that He was buried and
that He rose on the third day
and
that He was SEEN ALIVE by MANY.

NOT ONE WORD about 'additional junk' like 'ordinances' etc
NOT ONE WORD about other junk

NOT IN CHRIST's Gospel as reflected by the Apostle Paul.

Your heathen cult has not taught you the truth. It constantly perverts the Bible to attempt to 'prove' its own agenda.

That is why your cult PRETENDS that
Your 'heavenly father' is one of many gods in many universes, and that your 'heavenly father was once a man, but never 'not god.'
Your 'christ' is a spirit-brother to the demon satan.
Your 'holy ghost' is another one of many gods

Christian

03-09-2017, 12:30 PM

The point is to show the hypocrisy of asking another to show proof of their faith through archaeological evidence when your own faith cannot.

I CAN however, prove that most of the characters in the NT of the Bible existed in the real world
YOU CANNOT prove ONE SINGLE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE in your book of mormon ever existed IN THE REAL WORLD.

SCRIPTURE SUPPORTS what I believe; that is WHY I believe it (BESIDES THE HOLY GHOST'S TESTIMONY).

All YOU HAVE is joe smith's word, and an emotional tummy tug.

dberrie2000

03-10-2017, 04:47 AM

I've done it before, but you just IGNORED IT. The p***age was spoken BY a Jew, TO a Jew, and BOTH WERE UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW AT THE TIME.

Hi Christian:

As Paul stated--if the OT covenant was capable of bringing eternal life--then there would have been no need for the New Testament.

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And so did the NT writers:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So you are trying to MISapply scripture, to PRETEND that Christians are still under the OT LAW. Do you use the Bible?

I use it frequently--but that usually resorts in some kind of "out of context" retort:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

NOT ONE WORD about 'additional junk' like 'ordinances' etc

So--you believe the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--is "junk"?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

BigJulie

03-26-2017, 05:28 PM

Because Mormonism claims they have restored the gospel which somehow got lost despite the work of Jesus and the apostles and their followers, the burden of proof does lie with the Mormon church. Actually, it the "proof" lies with God. He asks that we ask him in faith.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Its not lack of faith on the part of Christians, because we do have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Its we do not have any faith in another gospel. Mormons are asking us to believe in something totally different and yet present no concrete evidence. That's where archaeology comes in.Yet, you don't even have that and the Bible has a ton of archaeological support. Do you see your own contradiction here? On one hand you express faith in your own beliefs, but when presented with something unfamiliar, you want proof.

Christ promised to preserve His church and He does not lie.

Mtt. 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

That's plain english. Nothing, not even hell can destroy His church. That is true, his church cannot be destroyed. But which church is that to you? Catholic? Orthodox Greek? Or are you speaking in broader terms meaning those who follow God?

alanmolstad

03-26-2017, 08:28 PM

dberrie2000

03-27-2017, 04:13 AM

all claims that a person makes about what the Bible teaches have to be researched...

We are to never just take someone's word...

Rather we are to put teachings and ideas to the test...

This is the example that Paul give us, for when he came to a city with a new teaching the people there would listen, then open their bibles and check to make sure what Paul was saying was actually found in the text?

There were a lot of "new teachings" found in the Biblical NT text which was not found in the scriptures which was had during Paul's day.

If they were "new"--then how could they look for it in what they had? IOW--if they already had that teaching--then it would not be "new".

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The fact is--most people just deny what the scriptures teach, when they defy their personal theologies.

alanmolstad

03-27-2017, 05:08 AM

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

all things in the church are put to the test of scripture.
Every teaching must be tested,,,,

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

dberrie2000

03-27-2017, 06:26 AM

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I don't doubt that--only, if it were a "new teaching"--then they would not be able to reference it through the text that is described as the Biblical "Old Testament".

For example--where do we find this teaching in the OT?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Again--if we search the scriptures to confirm what is Biblical truth--then why do the faith alone deny all scriptures which testify against them?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.