Golden Plates- An interesting point

[DrDavidT]

In one of the websites I linked to in another thread I came across this interesting tidbit


Concluding his presentation, Moroni warned Joseph that when the time came to obtain the plates, if he showed them to anyone not approved of the Lord, he would be destroyed.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/01/moroni-joseph-smiths-tutor?lang=eng

How convenient of Smith to say that as now no one can verify one thing he said or translated even though he is dead now the plates do not reappear and no one in the Mormon cult is approved of God for they have not seen the plates at anytime throughout Mormon history or even in the modern age. What does that say about their prophets? Their council of elders and other governing bodies?

The people occupying those offices are not approved of by their god.

[DrDavidT]

I find it funny that the resident Mormons refuse to discuss this point. It comes from their own websites but the point isn't just at Mormon leadership, even the resident Mormons are not approved by their god because they have not seen the golden plates either.

[dberrie2000]

In one of the websites I linked to in another thread I came across this interesting tidbit

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/01/moroni-joseph-smiths-tutor?lang=eng

How convenient of Smith to say that as now no one can verify one thing he said or translated even though he is dead now the plates do not reappear and no one in the Mormon cult is approved of God for they have not seen the plates at anytime throughout Mormon history or even in the modern age.

Those with doctorate degrees usually make more convincing and careful arguments:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[DrDavidT]

All that proves is that a conspiracy took place or that they were extorted to say those things or blackmailed. I do not see a non-Mormon on those lists so their testimony is suspect and worthless until extra-Mormon confirmation can support their views.

Everyone, no matter what they believe can see the bible and its ancient mss. no one can see the golden plates or any ancient ms. of this supposed true religion.

Also, your 'testimonies' prove that Brigham Young and subsequent leaders and members of the Mormon Church were and are not acceptable to your god so all you did was prove my point.

[dberrie2000]

Those with doctorate degrees usually make more convincing and careful arguments:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


All that proves is that a conspiracy took place or that they were extorted to say those things or blackmailed.

That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.

[DrDavidT]

That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.

Uhm...no. Not even close.

Jesus was seen by over 500 people not just the disciples, could have even been more. You obviously do not know what a strawman argument is. You have Mormons and Smith relatives claiming to have seen something no one else has seen or was allowed to see. Jesus was seen and the original mss. were used by normal people outside of the circle of 12.

But YOUR point still doesn't address the topic-- you are not approved by your god. you have not been shown the golden plates, how does that, make you feel about your god?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.


Uhm...no. Not even close.

Jesus was seen by over 500 people not just the disciples, could have even been more.

And just how does that somehow cover up or cancel out the fact the LDS have had numerous heavenly manifestations, and a written testimony as scripture--with witnesses--and the Book of Mormon?

That seems to be the mold God always follows--revelations about God or His economy never before expounded upon in general, with a written record.

God followed that same pattern with Moses, the NT apostles--and the Restoration--which was prophesied of:


Acts 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.


Uhm...no. Not even close.

Jesus was seen by over 500 people not just the disciples, could have even been more.

And just how does that somehow cover up or cancel out the fact the LDS have had numerous heavenly manifestations, and a written testimony as scripture--with witnesses--and the Book of Mormon?

That seems to be the mold God always follows--revelations about God or His economy never before expounded upon in general, with a written record.

God followed that same pattern with Moses, the NT apostles--and the Restoration--which was prophesied of:


Acts 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Berean]

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Nonsense.

While some of the statements made by the various witnesses to the Book of Mormon imply that they saw the plates with their natural eyes, other statements indicate that the viewing was actually in a vision. In fact, one Mormon gave up belief in the Book of Mormon when he heard Martin Harris state that the witnesses only saw the plates in a visionary state. Stephen Burnett related this event in a letter to Lyman E. Johnson on April 15, 1838:

I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it—loth to give it up—but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in a public congregation that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [their statement at the front of the Book of Mormon] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins . . . M[artin] Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight [witnesses] was false, if it had not been picked out of [h]im but should have let it p***ed as it was . . . (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, pp. 291-292).

It is ***umed that Harris was saying that the eight witnesses did not see the plates with the natural eye but in a vision, not that they lied about their experience.

LDS scholar Marvin Hill discussed the issue of the plates and whether the witnesses physically saw the plates or only in a vision:

In the revelation given the three witnesses before they viewed the plates they were told, "it is by your faith that you shall view them" and "ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith Jr. has seen them, for it is by my power that he has seen them." There is testimony from several independent interviewers, all non-Mormon, that Martin Harris and David Whitmer said they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes" only. Among others, A. Metcalf and John Gilbert, as well as Reuben P. Harmon and Jesse Townsend, gave testimonies to this effect. This is contradicted, however, by statements like that of David Whitmer in the Saints Herald in 1882, "these hands handled the plates, these eyes saw the angel." But Z. H. Gurley elicited from Whitmer a not so positive response to the question, "did you touch them?" His answer was, "We did not touch nor handle the plates." Asked about the table on which the plates rested, Whitmer replied, "the table had the appearance of literal wood as shown in the visions of the glory of God." . . .

So far as the eight witnesses go, William Smith said his father never saw the plates except under a frock. And Stephen Burnett quotes Martin Harris that "the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [their testimony published in the Book of Mormon] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it." Yet John Whitmer told Wilhelm Poulson of Ovid, Idaho, in 1878 that he saw the plates when they were not covered, and he turned the leaves. Hiram Page, another of the eight witnesses, left his peculiar testimony in a letter in the Ensign of Liberty in 1848:

As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself and to the work of God of the last days, to say that I could know a thing to be true in 1830, and know the same thing to be false in 1847. To say my mind was so treacherous that I have forgotten what I saw, to say that a man of Joseph's ability, who at that time did not know how to pronounce the word Nephi, could write a book of six hundred pages, as correct as the Book of Mormon without supernatural power. And to say that those holy Angels who came and showed themselves to me as I was walking through the field, to confirm me in the work of the Lord of the last days—three of whom came to me afterwards and sang an hymn in their own pure language; yes, it would be treating the God of heaven with contempt, to deny these testimonies.

With only a veiled reference to "what I saw," Page does not say he saw the plates but that angels confirmed him in his faith. Neither does he say that any coercion was placed upon him to secure his testimony. Despite Page's inconsistencies, it is difficult to know what to make of Harris' affirmation that the eight saw no plates in the face of John Whitmer's testimony. The original testimony of these eight men in the Book of Mormon reads somewhat ambiguously, not making clear whether they handled the plates or the "leaves" of the translated m****cript. Thus there are some puzzling aspects to the testimonies of the witnesses ("Brodie Revisited: A Reappraisal," by Marvin S. Hill, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 7, no. 4, pp. 83-85).

Further reinforcing the position that the eight witnesses never saw the actual plates, except for a possible vision, is the following statement of Martin Harris:

These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdery, myself, Joseph Smith, Jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 306).

Even though Harris says the three witnesses saw the plates, he obviously is still referring to a vision. In 1840 John A. Clark, pastor of Palmyra's Zion's Episcopal Church in the mid-1820's, gave the following account of Martin Harris seeing the plates:

A gentleman in Palmyra, bred to the law, a professor of religion, and of undoubted veracity told me that on one occasion, he appealed to Harris and asked him directly, —"Did you see those plates?" Harris replied, he did. "Did you see the plates, and the engraving on them with your bodily eyes?" Harris replied, "Yes, I saw them with my eyes,—they were shown unto me by the power of God and not of man." "But did you see them with your natural,—your bodily eyes, just as you see this pencil-case in my hand? Now say no or yes to this." Harris replied,—"Why I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see any thing around me,—though at the time they were covered over with a cloth" (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 270).

Thus it appears that only Joseph Smith could claim to see the plates with the natural eye. More Here (http://utlm.org/newsletters/no105.htm#Getting)

[DrDavidT]

why are mormons not asking their leaders for the golden plates to double check Smith and get verification for their beliefs?

[Erundur]

why are mormons not asking their leaders for the golden plates to double check Smith and get verification for their beliefs?
Because they don't have the plates.

[DrDavidT]

Because they don't have the plates.

That we know. They never existed.

With the Bible we have thousands of complete m****cripts and fragments and biblical students can go over the earliest ones and trace the preservation of God's word from the 7th century BC to the DSS (200 BC onward) plus a myriad for the New T. Anyone can do this and see God at work keeping his word the same for everyone YET with the Mormons NO ONE has this luxury with the book of Mormon or their other scriptures.

makes one wonder why anyone would trust the mormon scriptures when they cannot verify one word of any of the texts or see that they actually came from their god.

[Erundur]

They never existed.
Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

[alanmolstad]

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[alanmolstad]

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[DrDavidT]

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

as compared to the millions of people who have seen, read, studied, translated the m****cript record for the non-mormon bible? Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?

[dberrie2000]

as compared to the millions of people who have seen, read, studied, translated the m****cript record for the non-mormon bible? Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?

Just a note here, David.

The LDS still have a portion of the original translated m****cript for the Book of Mormon. That's something the Biblical text cannot claim, even though the LDS believe both are the Word of God--and both are canonized scripture in the LDS church.

[Erundur]

as compared to the millions of people who have seen, read, studied, translated the m****cript record for the non-mormon bible?
Non-Mormon Bible? You know that Mormons believe the same Bible you do, right? Maybe not the same translation, but the same Bible.


Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?
I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

[DrDavidT]

Non-Mormon Bible? You know that Mormons believe the same Bible you do, right? Maybe not the same translation, but the same Bible.


I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

no they don't. they have their one version with smiths editing. they do not have the bible at all. your second question means nothing as it derails the thread.

[Erundur]

no they don't. they have their one version with smiths editing.
Ah--you think we only use the JST. You'll be relieved to learn that English-speaking LDS primarily use the KJV. I also have a NRSV and a Reina-Valera 1960.


your second question means nothing as it derails the thread.
What? You brought it up.


Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?
I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

[DrDavidT]

Just a note here, David.

The LDS still have a portion of the original translated m****cript for the Book of Mormon. That's something the Biblical text cannot claim, even though the LDS believe both are the Word of God--and both are canonized scripture in the LDS church.

we have God's original word as well if we didn't then God didn't keep his promise.

[DrDavidT]

Ah--you think we only use the JST. You'll be relieved to learn that English-speaking LDS primarily use the KJV. I also have a NRSV and a Reina-Valera 1960.


What? You brought it up.


I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

You do not have the golden plates, no mss. record, nothing. you can't even get the angel moroni to return, what do you have to study?

[Erundur]

You do not have the golden plates, no mss. record, nothing.
That's false.


you can't even get the angel moroni to return,
How many angels have you gotten to return?


what do you have to study?
Well, we have the scriptures and the words of God to his modern-day prophets. But what is it that normal Mormons aren't able to study? What is being kept secret?

[DrDavidT]

That's false.


How many angels have you gotten to return?


Well, we have the scriptures and the words of God to his modern-day prophets. But what is it that normal Mormons aren't able to study? What is being kept secret?

1. prove it

2. haven't tried

3. the origin of their religious writings. we have mss, fragments a rich textual history, you have nothing

[dberrie2000]

1. prove it

2. haven't tried

3. the origin of their religious writings. we have mss, fragments a rich textual history, you have nothing

David--you have no original autographs--whether fragments or MSS.

The LDS have a portion of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon.

For me--it makes no difference, as both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are canonized scripture in the LDS church.

What one finds in the Biblical NT, as salvational doctrines--is also found in the LDS church.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[Erundur]

1. prove it
We have a portion of the Original M****cript, which was translated directly from the plates, and the Printers M****cript which was copied from the OM.


2. haven't tried
Neither have we.


3. the origin of their religious writings. we have mss, fragments a rich textual history, you have nothing
I don't know what you're talking about. Our church most certainly does teach about the origin of our scriptures.

[DrDavidT]

We have a portion of the Original M****cript, which was translated directly from the plates, and the Printers M****cript which was copied from the OM.


Neither have we.


I don't know what you're talking about. Our church most certainly does teach about the origin of our scriptures.

of course you do not know what I am talking about, you do not study or do real research. how do you know it is the original m****cript and how do you know it is without errors when you cannot compare that with the golden plates

[Erundur]

how do you know it is the original m****cript
The historical record. How do you know it isn't?


and how do you know it is without errors when you cannot compare that with the golden plates
I don't, of course. I ***ume it does have errors.

[DrDavidT]

The historical record. How do you know it isn't?


I don't, of course. I ***ume it does have errors.

What I have learned from discussing with mormons is that they cannot discuss and have the need to alter the topic. The do so in order to avoid dealing with the reality that thy do not have the true religion.

[alanmolstad]

What I have learned from discussing with mormons is that they cannot discuss and have the need to alter the topic. The do so in order to avoid dealing with the reality that thy do not have the true religion.
I am still waiting for that Mormon's list of support for the comment that "most Christians" that would call my post on the trinity as 'suspect".....

[dberrie2000]

What I have learned from discussing with mormons is that they cannot discuss and have the need to alter the topic. The do so in order to avoid dealing with the reality that thy do not have the true religion.

Hi David:

Could you give us some examples of what you feel is found in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[DrDavidT]

I am still waiting for that Mormon's list of support for the comment that "most Christians" that would call my post on the trinity as 'suspect".....

I am waiting for them to learn how to do research and discuss properly

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

Could you give us some examples of what you feel is found in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

this is a thread on the golden plates why not produce them so the whole world can see that they are real and the mormon faith is the true religion?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi David:

Could you give us some examples of what you feel is found in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


this is a thread on the golden plates why not produce them so the whole world can see that they are real and the mormon faith is the true religion?

Hi David:

A religion that demands proof of everything before belief is really not a religion of faith--is it?

Hebrews 11:1---King James Version (KJV)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

A religion that demands proof of everything before belief is really not a religion of faith--is it?

Hebrews 11:1---King James Version (KJV)
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

physical evidence supports faith and helps demonstrate that people are believing the correct teachings. Mormons do not have any physical evidence supporting their 'faith', they are people who are fooled.

[DrDavidT]

duplicate post

[dberrie2000]

physical evidence supports faith and helps demonstrate that people are believing the correct teachings. Mormons do not have any physical evidence supporting their 'faith', they are people who are fooled.

They have the witness of the scriptures:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[DrDavidT]

They have the witness of the scriptures:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

every religion has works and their own scriptures, so you got nothing special there

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post physical evidence supports faith and helps demonstrate that people are believing the correct teachings. Mormons do not have any physical evidence supporting their 'faith', they are people who are fooled.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post They have the witness of the scriptures:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


every religion has works and their own scriptures, so you got nothing special there

Hi David:

The witness of the Bible is something special, for the LDS. It's even more special when one believes the witness the Biblical text bears testimony to:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

The witness of the Bible is something special, for the LDS. It's even more special when one believes the witness the Biblical text bears testimony to:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Yet Smith claimed it was translated wrong so which Bible are you using? Then how do you explain the contradictions between the Bible and mormon religious writings?

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

The witness of the Bible is something special, for the LDS. It's even more special when one believes the witness the Biblical text bears testimony to:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Jesus never said to stop drinking coffee, tea, soft drinks etc., and he never instructed anyone to wear magic underwear.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi David:

The witness of the Bible is something special, for the LDS. It's even more special when one believes the witness the Biblical text bears testimony to:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Yet Smith claimed it was translated wrong so which Bible are you using?

Hi David:

The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and the KJV it's official translation.

Care to address the above scripture?


Then how do you explain the contradictions between the Bible and mormon religious writings?

Such as?

David--I have asked you to address both sides of the debate--IE--how do you fit the posted scriptures into faith alone theology--and what do you find in the Biblical NT text--which isn't found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

You have refused to engage either, opting rather--to erect straw man arguments.

Care to address the above scripture--and how it fits faith alone theology?

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[DrDavidT]

like I said, Jesus never commanded anyone to stop drinking coffee, tea and other things so which version are you using for it is not the KJV. Jesus never taught his followers to use magic underwear or that satan was his brother so what version of the Bible are you using? it is not the KJV

[DrDavidT]

Care to address the above scripture-

No I do not care to address those p***ages because I am not talking about those p***ages of scripture and you bring them in to derail the thread. I am talking about specific Mormon teachings that Jesus did not teach.

[dberrie2000]

No I do not care to address those p***ages because ....

Hi David:

That seems to be the position of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures. Those scriptures fit LDS theology just fine.

David--I noticed you did not engage any of the scriptures posted--nor offer any of your own.

Should we not use the Bible in our discussions?

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

That seems to be the position of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures. Those scriptures fit LDS theology just fine.

David--I noticed you did not engage any of the scriptures posted--nor offer any of your own.

Should we not use the Bible in our discussions?

Again, I do not address those scriptures because you do not understand them and you misuse them. Point out the scriptures which address the topic and what I have mentioned until then you won't get me to play along

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

That seems to be the position of those whose theology is violated by the posted scriptures. Those scriptures fit LDS theology just fine.

David--I noticed you did not engage any of the scriptures posted--nor offer any of your own.

Should we not use the Bible in our discussions?

P.S. anyone can cherry pick scripture and claim it fits in with their cultic ideology. It is done all the time.

[dberrie2000]

P.S. anyone can cherry pick scripture and claim it fits in with their cultic ideology. It is done all the time.

What seems to me to be done all the time--is label scriptures which defies one theology--as "cherry pick".

What I don't find in your posts--is any meaningful discussion of the posted scriptures, or any use of the Biblical text. Why shouldn't we use the Bible as our standard--and use it to establish the truth?

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[DrDavidT]

What seems to me to be done all the time--is label scriptures which defies one theology--as "cherry pick".

What I don't find in your posts--is any meaningful discussion of the posted scriptures, or any use of the Biblical text. Why shouldn't we use the Bible as our standard--and use it to establish the truth?

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

that scripture hasnothing to do with the topic or the questions I raised. Why are you so afraid to discuss those questions and provide KJV verses to support mormon ideology on those topics?

[dberrie2000]

that scripture hasnothing to do with the topic or the questions I raised. Why are you so afraid to discuss those questions and provide KJV verses to support mormon ideology on those topics?

Again--what do you find in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go?

[DrDavidT]

again, if these plates contain the truth then why hide them?

[dberrie2000]

again, if these plates contain the truth then why hide them?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

that has NOTHING to do with the question asked

[DrDavidT]

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

i hvae reported you for not discussing but avoiding questions and the topic

[dberrie2000]

that has NOTHING to do with the question asked

Hi David:

I believe it does. You are asking for proof of the plates--to handle them, to see them, to examine them, where are they, etc.

God does not work in such a fashion, for the main. He leaves a record, with witnesses--and tries the faith of His people.

Which is the same principle we find in the very existence of God--which neither you nor I have seen.

And is the same principle which is demonstrated in this testimony, IMO:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

I believe it does. You are asking for proof of the plates--to handle them, to see them, to examine them, where are they, etc.

God does not work in such a fashion, for the main. He leaves a record, with witnesses--and tries the faith of His people.

Which is the same principle we find in the very existence of God--which neither you nor I have seen.

And is the same principle which is demonstrated in this testimony, IMO:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

there is no real record for the golden plates and the witnesses can be re****ed. But since they are dead they are no longer witnesses now are they? where are the current witnesses who have seen and photographed the plates?

[dberrie2000]

there is no real record for the golden plates

The Book of Mormon is a real, existing record.


and the witnesses can be re****ed.

Not the first word from any witness has been posted where any of them denied their testimony.


But since they are dead they are no longer witnesses now are they?

Are you claiming all the apostles' record we find in the Biblical NT no longer cons***ute a witness?

[DrDavidT]

The Book of Mormon is a real, existing record.



Not the first word from any witness has been posted where any of them denied their testimony.



Are you claiming all the apostles' record we find in the Biblical NT no longer cons***ute a witness?

your twisting of words is noted and ignored as it demonstrates a very lack of understanding of who actually wrote the Bible. it also demonstrates that you cannot discuss honestly.

i thought alan has done a great *** in posting the denials

[dberrie2000]

your twisting of words is noted and ignored as it demonstrates a very lack of understanding of who actually wrote the Bible. it also demonstrates that you cannot discuss honestly.

i thought alan has done a great *** in posting the denials

Hi David:

It seems those denials usually follow the same pattern as your post above--straw man arguments.

There hasn't been anyone who has posted any denial by the witnesses themselves. If you or Alan have any--please post them.

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

It seems those denials usually follow the same pattern as your post above--straw man arguments.

There hasn't been anyone who has posted any denial by the witnesses themselves. If you or Alan have any--please post them.

I haven't made a starw man argument yet. did you see the new thread posted for you? why are you afraid to visit there?

[dberrie2000]

I haven't made a starw man argument yet. did you see the new thread posted for you? why are you afraid to visit there?

I have not seen much of anything you have posted which amounted to more than a straw man argument.

I'm waiting on your response in your thread.

[DrDavidT]

I have not seen much of anything you have posted which amounted to more than a straw man argument.

I'm waiting on your response in your thread.

but i have asked real questions. If the golden plates are so important why take them back to heaven? why rebury them? why hide them from people's eyes?

[dberrie2000]

but i have asked real questions. If the golden plates are so important why take them back to heaven? why rebury them? why hide them from people's eyes?

That's like asking why the autographs of the Biblical text are not available. The LDS don't place any value on the golden plates--but rather--what was translated from them, IE--the Book of Mormon. Just as they do not place any value on the autographs for the Biblical text--as they have what is translated from them--IE--the Bible.

So--could you explain to us what you believe would be added to mankind's testimony by viewing either the Golden plates--or the autographs?

As the scriptures testify to:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

That's like asking why the autographs of the Biblical text are not available. The LDS don't place any value on the golden plates--but rather--what was translated from them, IE--the Book of Mormon. Just as they do not place any value on the autographs for the Biblical text--as they have what is translated from them--IE--the Bible.

So--could you explain to us what you believe would be added to mankind's testimony by viewing either the Golden plates--or the autographs?

As the scriptures testify to:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

BUT we have ancient mss. to recheck what someone has done. you don't

[dberrie2000]

BUT we have ancient mss. to recheck what someone has done. you don't

Since the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--they have the same m****cripts everyone else has.

The LDS also have some of the original translation m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript.

[DrDavidT]

Since the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--they have the same m****cripts everyone else has.

The LDS also have some of the original translation m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript.

Wrong again. Smith retranslated it so his ms enjoys no textual record. But with that said, even if you have the same textual record, it is how you apply the biblical verses that matter not the record itself. Mormons do not have the spirit of truth helping them thus they always get scriptures wrong and misapply them

[dberrie2000]

Wrong again. Smith retranslated it so his ms enjoys no textual record.

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

by ancient I mean an over 2,000 year track record. the mormons have not even 200 years

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

by ancient I mean an over 2,000 year track record. the mormons have not even 200 years

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Just so you know, mormons do not hear moses or the prophets or they wouldn't tell the tale that they do about our origins.

[dberrie2000]

by ancient I mean an over 2,000 year track record. the mormons have not even 200 years


Just so you know, mormons do not hear moses or the prophets or they wouldn't tell the tale that they do about our origins.

Hi David:

Straw man after straw man.

David--do you have anything other than Taint so!! arguments to add to the posted material--or the Biblical scripture?

[DrDavidT]

Hi David:

Straw man after straw man.

David--do you have anything other than Taint so!! arguments to add to the posted material--or the Biblical scripture?

no dberrie, you do not know what a strawman argument is. you just use the logical fallacy to avoid answering my questions

[DrDavidT]

if the mormons heard moses and the prophets, their beliefs would be different. this is not a starwamna but an opening for you to tell everyone what you believe about our origins and explain why it is different from Genesis

[dberrie2000]

no dberrie, you do not know what a strawman argument is. you just use the logical fallacy to avoid answering my questions

Which is another straw man retort.

[dberrie2000]

if the mormons heard moses and the prophets, their beliefs would be different. this is not a starwamna but an opening for you to tell everyone what you believe about our origins and explain why it is different from Genesis

What does the Golden Plates have to do with Genesis?

The LDS believe what is taught in Genesis:

Genesis 2:24-25---King James Version (KJV)
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Was that a marriage in mortality--or immortality?