Did smith make the whole thing up? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

Christian

09-06-2016, 04:30 PM

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:

Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Here is my response as to what I find in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Let's see now. . .beyond you RUNNING AWAY FROM THE OP that you obviously are unable to handle. . .

The OP:

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE

STILL cannot support your 'prophet' whose prophesies failed, and who tried to shoot his way out of jail with EVIDENCE?

YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH the OP?

HERE is the OP. . .AGAIN:

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE

So what do YOU have to offer in answer to the OP? NOTHING, OBVIOUSLY. You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. . .)

Are you REALLY so afraid that the TRUTH will expose your false prophet?

Phoenix

09-07-2016, 06:46 AM

Did smith make the whole thing up?
Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere.
Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself
So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!
But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Think you can prove me wrong in this?
I think you're proving yourself wrong.

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.
His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not. They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.
The finished product is verifiable evidence. The testimonies of the eyewitnesses are verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Christian

09-07-2016, 07:55 AM

phoenix posted:

Originally Posted by Christian
Did smith make the whole thing up?
Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

What makes you think anything your religion has to offer is worth being 'terrified' of? I know, in the past your religion did things like the mountain meadows m***acre, and joe smith trying to shoot people as he tried to escape jail, but what violence should we fear today?

My God, the God of the BIBLE protects me from the evil your religion offers, forgives ALL of my sins, so what's to fear?

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

Once again, text without context is only cheap pretext. I guess that is all you have to offer, stuff that your false prophet stole from the king james translation of the Bible.

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

No, that's not what I am saying. I stated very clearly that NOT ONE SINGLE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE that joe smith made up in his book of mormon can be verified as ever existing in the real world (no 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus, no nephites, none of the junk he made up at all).

And you still cannot deal with the fact that all you have is a conman with his face in a hat, pretending to "translate" from a peepstone. NOT ONE WORD of your bom was translated by ANYONE ELSE.

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

You still have nothing but text taken from the BIBLE, not joe smith's own stuff, text taken OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, making your PRETEXT look stupid.

NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

No, joe didn't translate anything at all. He stuck his face into a hat with a rock and SPOKE, told stories. ANYONE could do that.

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

YOU made that claim, I did not. I could EASILY tell stories like that.

He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No contradiction at all. Joey told fairytales. NOBODY ever translated any of joe's junk at all. You may try to TWIST my words to make them sound like I say things I never said, but then that is you telling lies, not me saying what you claim.

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

Then you are intentionally ignorant of the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that joe smith CLAIMED TO TRANSLATE by looking into his hat at a rock when IN REALITY all he did was tell fairytales.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not.

You were not either. And joey and his gang of miscreants don't count for much at all.

They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

The finished product is verifiable evidence.

COMPLETELY FALSE. NOT ONE PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT IN THE BOM can be verified as EVER EXISTING in REAL LIFE. You have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. The Qur'an, and the Bhavad Gita (sp?) are just as 'well' written. As reading material, your bom is dry, not inspiring at all.

And the pretended 'test' of its veracity, that you read it and pray to God to see if it is true or not is phoney. MANY of us did that and got EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE answer that you claim you got.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE in a god that contradicts itself?

They testimony of the eyewitnesses is verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Just like many statements by white supremecists can be 'verified' in the same way.No, your supposed 'evidence' is still really evidence of nothing. Joey and his little gang of cronies played their stupid game, but in reality it was nothing more than that. . .they just played "let's play religion" together.

dberrie2000

09-07-2016, 09:34 AM

Are you REALLY so afraid that the TRUTH will expose your false prophet?[/COLOR]

The truth is--the Book of Mormon is a reality--and the testimony of the witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Christian--that is the pattern of the way God uses whenever He reveals Himself to mankind. That was the pattern we see in Moses, The NT apostles--and Joseph Smith:

1) He leaves a behind written record of heavenly manifestations--with witnesses

2) God reveals things that have never before been expounded upon to mankind in general--as revelation to mankind.

So--please remember the testimony of the NT writers:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

MickeyS

09-07-2016, 04:04 PM

phoenix posted:

Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

What makes you think anything your religion has to offer is worth being 'terrified' of? I know, in the past your religion did things like the mountain meadows m***acre, and joe smith trying to shoot people as he tried to escape jail, but what violence should we fear today?

My God, the God of the BIBLE protects me from the evil your religion offers, forgives ALL of my sins, so what's to fear?

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

Once again, text without context is only cheap pretext. I guess that is all you have to offer, stuff that your false prophet stole from the king james translation of the Bible.

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

No, that's not what I am saying. I stated very clearly that NOT ONE SINGLE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE that joe smith made up in his book of mormon can be verified as ever existing in the real world (no 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus, no nephites, none of the junk he made up at all).

And you still cannot deal with the fact that all you have is a conman with his face in a hat, pretending to "translate" from a peepstone. NOT ONE WORD of your bom was translated by ANYONE ELSE.

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

You still have nothing but text taken from the BIBLE, not joe smith's own stuff, text taken OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, making your PRETEXT look stupid.

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

No, joe didn't translate anything at all. He stuck his face into a hat with a rock and SPOKE, told stories. ANYONE could do that.

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

YOU made that claim, I did not. I could EASILY tell stories like that.

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No contradiction at all. Joey told fairytales. NOBODY ever translated any of joe's junk at all. You may try to TWIST my words to make them sound like I say things I never said, but then that is you telling lies, not me saying what you claim.

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

Then you are intentionally ignorant of the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that joe smith CLAIMED TO TRANSLATE by looking into his hat at a rock when IN REALITY all he did was tell fairytales.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not.

You were not either. And joey and his gang of miscreants don't count for much at all.

They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.

The finished product is verifiable evidence.

COMPLETELY FALSE. NOT ONE PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT IN THE BOM can be verified as EVER EXISTING in REAL LIFE. You have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. The Qur'an, and the Bhavad Gita (sp?) are just as 'well' written. As reading material, your bom is dry, not inspiring at all.

And the pretended 'test' of its veracity, that you read it and pray to God to see if it is true or not is phoney. MANY of us did that and got EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE answer that you claim you got.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE in a god that contradicts itself?

They testimony of the eyewitnesses is verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Just like many statements by white supremecists can be 'verified' in the same way.No, your supposed 'evidence' is still really evidence of nothing. Joey and his little gang of cronies played their stupid game, but in reality it was nothing more than that. . .they just played "let's play religion" together.

Maybe not "terrified", but definitely OBSESSED. Which is obvious by popping my head in here and seeing the same repe***ive ramble that has no meaning or end. It doesn't seem healthy.

Btw....nobody can "prove" the Bible is ABSOLUTELY the Word of God. I know it is, but not because it was proven to be so by historical facts or what not. That only proves that some of the people and places in the Bible actually existed. It doesn't prove that it's the Word of God. You rely on accounts by long dead individuals handed down through centuries and rewritten numerous times. And you seem to know for sure the Bible is the Word of God, how exactly? Since you don't actually verify it with God (which would make the most sense to me) Can you prove to an unbeliever like an atheist, who is dead set against it being the Word of God, that the Bible is in fact the Word of God?? Nope... But those are your expectations, for us to prove, to you, an unbeliever, that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

Also, just because you can't find absolute definite physical proof of the places in the Book of Mormon, doesn't mean they don't exist either. There are places in the Bible that are still questionable and record keeping civilizations have been LIVING in those areas consistently since the Bible was written. The civilizations in the Book of Mormon that were keeping record, were lost. Hundreds of years later the areas began to be populated by modern, record keeping people's again. How do you really expect everything to be easily identified when nobody's lived in those areas for centuries. I mean really? That's not proof those places didn't exist. It's just not. But it's funny that you hold on to it as such.

But it's interesting to see you still running in the same circles. Like I said, maybe not terrified, but definitely obsessed. I wonder why that is?

Let the highly confusing, multi colored, meaningless insults and circular running commence. I honestly couldn't care less what you have to say. Much like you couldn't care less about, well, anything I have to say. But it still won't stop you from spewing venom. Have fun with that :) I won't respond because honestly, I can't keep track of your replies, they're a hot mess. You'd think after all the time you've spent here, you'd have figured out how to pen a cohesive response.

Christian

09-08-2016, 07:00 AM

Mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170011#post170011)
phoenix posted:

Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

What makes you think anything your religion has to offer is worth being 'terrified' of? I know, in the past your religion did things like the mountain meadows m***acre, and joe smith trying to shoot people as he tried to escape jail, but what violence should we fear today?

My God, the God of the BIBLE protects me from the evil your religion offers, forgives ALL of my sins, so what's to fear?

...

And you still cannot deal with the fact that all you have is a conman with his face in a hat, pretending to "translate" from a peepstone. NOT ONE WORD of your bom was translated by ANYONE ELSE.

You still have nothing but text taken from the BIBLE, not joe smith's own stuff, text taken OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, making your PRETEXT look stupid.

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

No, joe didn't translate anything at all. He stuck his face into a hat with a rock and SPOKE, told stories. ANYONE could do that.

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

YOU made that claim, I did not. I could EASILY tell stories like that.

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No contradiction at all. Joey told fairytales. NOBODY ever translated any of joe's junk at all. You may try to TWIST my words to make them sound like I say things I never said, but then that is you telling lies, not me saying what you claim.

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

Then you are intentionally ignorant of the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that joe smith CLAIMED TO TRANSLATE by looking into his hat at a rock when IN REALITY all he did was tell fairytales.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not.

You were not either. And joey and his gang of miscreants don't count for much at all.

The finished product is verifiable evidence.

COMPLETELY FALSE. NOT ONE PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT IN THE BOM can be verified as EVER EXISTING in REAL LIFE. You have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. The Qur'an, and the Bhavad Gita (sp?) are just as 'well' written. As reading material, your bom is dry, not inspiring at all.

And the pretended 'test' of its veracity, that you read it and pray to God to see if it is true or not is phoney. MANY of us did that and got EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE answer that you claim you got.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE in a god that contradicts itself?

They testimony of the eyewitnesses is verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Just like many statements by white supremecists can be 'verified' in the same way.No, your supposed 'evidence' is still really evidence of nothing. Joey and his little gang of cronies played their stupid game, but in reality it was nothing more than that. . .they just played "let's play religion" together.

Maybe not "terrified", but definitely OBSESSED. Which is obvious by popping my head in here and seeing the same repe***ive ramble that has no meaning or end. It doesn't seem healthy.

Obsessed? THIS IS after all the lds forum in which we critique the mormon religion. Since the mormon religion hasn't changed and YOU keep making claims like you made above, I DO RESPOND to your posts.

Btw....nobody can "prove" the Bible is ABSOLUTELY the Word of God.

NOBODY CAN "PROVE" ANYTHING to a person who is not willing to face reality. I can hold up a bright light to you, and you can pretend it is a goat or ignore it. The EVIDENCE for the Bible is overwhelming, BOTH SPIRITUAL AND PHYSICAL EVIDENCE..

I know it is, but not because it was proven to be so by historical facts or what not. That only proves that some of the people and places in the Bible actually existed.

Of course YOU HAVE NO SUCH PROOF that any person, place, or event joe smith made up ever actually existed.

It doesn't prove that it's the Word of God.

I never said it did. IT DOES SHOW the existance of some of the persons, places, and events were real. Joey smith's fairytales don't have any of that.

You rely on accounts by long dead individuals handed down through centuries and rewritten numerous times.

I rely on the BIBLE, the WORD OF GOD that has never been 'rewritten' at all. We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Of course joe smith's junk has NONE to compare to. All YOU have is accounts by a long-dead conman handed down and rewritten numerous times with over 4,000 CHANGES in it.

And you seem to know for sure the Bible is the Word of God, how exactly?

A whole TON of evidence and substance (which the BIBLE describes as "FAITH":

Heb 11:1-3
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
NKJV

Faith is NOT just a 'tummy feeling' combined with a wish, which seems to be all YOU have. GENUINE faith is SUBSTANCE AND EVIDENCE as God has said in the p***age above.

Since you don't actually verify it with God (which would make the most sense to me)

Who says I haven't 'verified it with God?' Do you make make these horse-apples up on your own?

Can you prove to an unbeliever like an atheist, who is dead set against it being the Word of God, that the Bible is in fact the Word of God?? Nope... But those are your expectations, for us to prove, to you, an unbeliever, that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

To GOD I am an ABSOLUTE BELIEVER. To joe smith, you, white supremecists, jw's, and muslims, I am NOT a believer in your false gods or false christs.

Also, just because you can't find absolute definite physical proof of the places in the Book of Mormon, doesn't mean they don't exist either.

Your argument is from absence, a logical fallacy. You cannot prove that joe smith didn't wear pink underwear either since no evidence exists that he did not. Your argument from absence is junk, nothing more.

There are places in the Bible that are still questionable and record keeping civilizations have been LIVING in those areas consistently since the Bible was written.

And yet MANY of those places keep 'popping up,' being found, and being proven to have existed.

For joe smith's stuff. . .NONE have been found.

The civilizations in the Book of Mormon that were keeping record, were lost. Hundreds of years later the areas began to be populated by modern, record keeping people's again. How do you really expect everything to be easily identified when nobody's lived in those areas for centuries. I mean really? That's not proof those places didn't exist. It's just not. But it's funny that you hold on to it as such.

Supposedly millions of people never left coins, pottery with writing on it, etc AT ALL? How stupid is that? (how stupid IS THERE?)

But it's interesting to see you still running in the same circles. Like I said, maybe not terrified, but definitely obsessed. I wonder why that is

Because I still see the mormon cult leading people to Hell. For the same reason that Jesus, Paul, and others consistantly spoke against the pharisees and sadducees that perverted what GOD had said.

It's hard to pen a cohesive response to your rambling whines, but I'll keep trying.

Sorry if the TRUTH hurts you. I pray to God for your soul. If you want to 'give up' and quit, that is up to you. I'll keep responding to your nonsense as long as I can.

dberrie2000

09-08-2016, 07:21 AM

We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

Christian

09-08-2016, 05:28 PM

Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

Try 5,200 partials and m****cripts SOME of which date back to the end of the first century.

BUT NOT ONE M****CRIPT AT ALL of any of joey smith's junk from which he claimed to have looked at a rock inside his hat to 'translate.'

NOT ONE WORD of the bom can be CHECKED FOR ACCURATE TRANSLATION, and it has over 4,000 differences between the original and now, including changed words, phrases and entire paragraphs.

Doesn't it bother you JUST A LITTLE BIT that you have nothing but the word of joe smith that ANY of the bom people, places, or events ever EXISTED AT ALL? Just the word of a liar, common criminal who tried to shoot people to death on his attempt to escape from jail?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. . .

dberrie2000

09-08-2016, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Christian View Post We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

[COLOR=#0000ff]Try 5,200 partials and m****cripts SOME of which date back to the end of the first century.

Then perhaps you would give us the "some" first century m****cripts.

BUT NOT ONE M****CRIPT AT ALL of any of joey smith's junk from which he claimed to have looked at a rock inside his hat to 'translate.'

NOT ONE WORD of the bom can be CHECKED FOR ACCURATE TRANSLATION, and it has over 4,000 differences between the original and now, including changed words, phrases and entire paragraphs.

You might want to check that against the facts.

There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

Christian

09-09-2016, 10:09 AM

There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

ALL YOU HAVE IS JOE'S SUPPOSED "translation" MADE BY STARRING AT A ROCK IN HIS HAT AND TELLING FAIRYTALES.

Yep, joey just made it all up, stealing some of it from the kjv Bible, some from other sources (perhaps), and telling fairytales. AND YOU CANNOT DEMONSTRATE OTHERWISE.

dberrie2000

09-09-2016, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

Taint so!! retorts are neither convincing nor compelling.

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Christian

09-10-2016, 06:44 AM

berry posted:

Taint so!! retorts are neither convincing nor compelling.

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE. NEITHER DO COPIES OF THEM EXIST ANYWHERE.

What is your evidence otherwise?

The FACT THAT YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THEM.

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

I own a copy of it. There are over 4,000 CHANGES that have been made since it was published. . .BUT IT IS ONLY JOE'S IMAGINED "TRANSLATION," and his ability to 'translate' anything from the rocks in his head or his hat CANNOT BE VERIFIED BY ANY MEANS AT ALL.

You are floundering, berrie. . .

dberrie2000

09-10-2016, 08:55 AM

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE.

Moving the goalposts when you get burned is a common tactic--but cyberspace does not forget:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

Again:

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original translation m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Those m****cripts can be "produced"--they are still extant. Today. Now.

Which means your original statement cannot be verified as truth.

Phoenix

09-12-2016, 11:12 AM

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

Who posted the following?
"You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. ."

Was that a gay person who said that?

Phoenix

09-12-2016, 11:15 AM

Christian

09-12-2016, 02:25 PM

berrie posted:

Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170031#post170031)

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE.

Moving the goalposts when you get burned is a common tactic--but cyberspace does not forget

True. And as you are trying to move them now, we DO notice.

Again:

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original translation m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist. Of course the OP has to do with the veracity of the comparison of joe smith's supposed "translating' by peeping at his peepstone in his hat, the ability to COMPARE the original language to joe's supposed "translation" STILL REMAINS unanswered and unanswuerable by you.
You still cannot demonstrate IN ANY REAL WAY that joe smith didn't just make a story up from his own corrupt imagination when he told the stories to his 'scribes' (usually ollie cowdery if I remember correctly).

Those m****cripts can be "produced"--they are still extant. Today. Now.

The m****cripts of the pretended "translations" are the WRONG M****CRIPTS. You are trying to move the goalposts again. . .STILL a stupid tactic.

Which means your original statement cannot be verified as truth.

Only if we close our eyes and PRETEND as you seem wont to do.

Are you going to try to 'move the goalposts' yet again?

dberrie2000

09-14-2016, 06:28 AM

[COLOR=#0000ff][COLOR=#0000cd]Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

It's the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

Christian

09-14-2016, 08:26 AM

It's the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT JOE SMITH 'TRANSLATED' ANYTHING ACCURATELY OR AT ALL? NADA. ZILCH. NOTHING. Of course!

ALL you have is his supposed "translation" that has been CHANGED over 4,000 times since then.

Christian

09-14-2016, 08:37 AM

Who posted the following?
"You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. ."

Was that a gay person who said that?

No, it was a STRAIGHT person DESCRIBING what the gay do. . .is English NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE?

dberrie2000

09-14-2016, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos***'s the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Whooopee! copies of the so-called[COLOR="#FF0000"] "translation" exist.

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

DrDavidT

09-15-2016, 03:42 AM

he had to make it all up. there is no evidence supporting one thing he said. none. from the supposed ancient people to the supposed ancient battle to the supposed angel moroni. mormons just won't admit the truth or be honest with themselves.

what golden plates? they mysteriously disappeared, no mormon has been found approved by their god to see them for almost 200 hundred years. the mormons here must re-evaluate their faith because they are not as good as they think

dberrie2000

09-15-2016, 05:22 AM

he had to make it all up. there is no evidence supporting one thing he said. none.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Phoenix

09-15-2016, 11:00 AM

No, it was a STRAIGHT person DESCRIBING what the gay do. . .is English NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE?

You said that when you show gay people the flaws in their reasoning, the gays accuse you of somehow being terrified of them.
But you accused Mormons of running from you like scared little girls. So, according to your "gay" theory, the Mormons have shown you the flaws in your reasoning.

Is this your first attempt at logical thinking?

alanmolstad

09-15-2016, 07:52 PM

well...the theory might hold water if all the Mormons were also gay...is that what you are suggesting?

Christian

09-18-2016, 01:55 PM

well...the theory might hold water if all the Mormons were also gay...is that what you are suggesting?

It sounds like what he is trying to claim, doesn't it. . .?

Christian

09-18-2016, 01:59 PM

You said that when you show gay people the flaws in their reasoning, the gays accuse you of somehow being terrified of them.
But you accused Mormons of running from you like scared little girls. So, according to your "gay" theory, the Mormons have shown you the flaws in your reasoning.

Is this your first attempt at logical thinking?

Of course that is NOT what I said, I said WHEN THEY ARE SHOWN their flaws they accuse US CHRISTIANS of being terrified of them.

Is this YOUR first attempt at reading? Your 'logical thinking' skills are sadly lacking. . .

dberrie2000

09-18-2016, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos***'s the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

Bump for Christian

Christian

09-19-2016, 06:42 AM

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

Bump for Christian
"original translation." No translation at all, you mean. NO 'translation' at all, just joe smith sticking his head into his hat with a rock in it, telling tall tales. STILL NO WAY TO CHECK TO SEE IF HE ACTUALLY 'TRANSLATED' ANYTHING AT ALL. NO WAY TO DEMONSTRATE IT WASN'T JUST JOE TELLING FAIRYTALES.

And EVERY WORD I said is absolutely TRUE, no matter HOW YOU TRY TO RUN AWAY FROM THAT TRUTH.

dberrie2000

09-22-2016, 05:55 PM

"original translation." No translation at all, you mean.

Yes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

Christian

09-23-2016, 09:24 AM

Yes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

EXCEPT FOR THE TRUTH that you keep running from. . .NOT ONE WORD CAN BE PROVEN TO BE AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION OF ANYTHING AT ALL. All you have is joe smith talking into the hat with a rock in it, NOTHING TRANSLATED AT ALL!

Keep running berry, keep running from the TRUTH

dberrie2000

09-23-2016, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

EXCEPT FOR THE TRUTH that you keep running from. . .NOT ONE WORD CAN BE PROVEN TO BE AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION OF ANYTHING AT ALL. All you have is joe smith talking into the hat with a rock in it, NOTHING TRANSLATED AT ALL!

Keep running berry, keep running from the TRUTH

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

Christian

09-23-2016, 11:18 AM

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..

Christian

09-23-2016, 11:19 AM

dberrie2000

09-23-2016, 12:34 PM

[COLOR=#0000ff]What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Christian

09-24-2016, 06:41 AM

berry forgot to post it ALL to give CONTEXT of what I said.

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..The truth is--the Book of Mormon is a reality--and the testimony of the witnesses:

AND as usual his text without context was PRETEXT, nothing more.

The TRUTH is that joey smith and his cronies are the ONLY 'witnesses' that said plates ever existed, and the TRUTH remains that NOBODY BUT JOEY supposedly 'translated' anything to get the bom TEXT, and joey only did his fairytale-telling with his face in his hat with a rock.

You have said NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE to refute ANY of that TRUTH.

Instead, you have tried to RUN AWAY over and over again by playing little games instead.

Doesn't that BOTHER YOU?

Phoenix

09-24-2016, 11:27 AM

well...the theory might hold water if all the Mormons were also gay...is that what you are suggesting?

No. You made the same mistake the other Mormon-hater made: you didn't realize that he accused Mormons of being afraid of him.....but later he said that accusing people of being afraid is what the gay community does.

Did you get it this time?

dberrie2000

09-24-2016, 05:26 PM

berry forgot to post it ALL to give CONTEXT of what I said.

AND as usual his text without context was PRETEXT, nothing more.

The TRUTH is that joey smith and his cronies are the ONLY 'witnesses' that said plates ever existed, and the TRUTH remains that NOBODY BUT JOEY supposedly 'translated' anything to get the bom TEXT, and joey only did his fairytale-telling with his face in his hat with a rock.

You have said NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE to refute ANY of that TRUTH.

Instead, you have tried to RUN AWAY over and over again by playing little games instead.

Doesn't that BOTHER YOU?

What bothers me are those who have nothing to offer--to show any heavenly connection--and then attack those who do:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

devils_ham

09-25-2016, 10:14 AM

I'm curious, why are LDS members posting on this forum.....trying to defend their gospel..?
Its confusing as to what their motive is. Why they have the official LDS.org website to do this...fairmormon, etc, etc.

dberrie2000

09-25-2016, 11:57 AM

devils_ham

09-25-2016, 01:02 PM

Well this is the Walter Martin Ministries forum.....its an Evangelical Christian website.....

dberrie2000

09-25-2016, 02:57 PM

Well this is the Walter Martin Ministries forum.....its an Evangelical Christian website.....

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

DrDavidT

09-25-2016, 09:26 PM

It is so funny that dberrie keeps posting the same witness statements as if no one has seen them in the first thousand times he posted them.

He doesn't get it, those witness statements are not evidence and mean little to nothing especially since it was family members and many people who left the cult later in life. those statements do not prove the golden plates existed nor will the repeated posting f them do anything but show that the mormons cannot prove what they claim is the foundation of their faith

dberrie2000

09-26-2016, 05:15 AM

It is so funny that dberrie keeps posting the same witness statements as if no one has seen them in the first thousand times he posted them.

He doesn't get it, those witness statements are not evidence ...

Witness statements are always considered evidence in any court of law. The entire Biblical text is composed of witness testimony.

those statements do not prove the golden plates existed

Proof is only valid in the minds of those who are willing to accept it. And I agree with you--it is not proof--but rather, evidence.

nor will the repeated posting f them do anything but show that the mormons cannot prove what they claim is the foundation of their faith

The Biblical text claims the apostles and prophets form the foundation:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The LDS church is led by living, mortal apostles and prophets. Is yours?

devils_ham

09-26-2016, 06:01 PM

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, I don't believe it is....now. They have changed their doctrines so much, that maybe in a few years they will.
Which I hope they do. The LDS church now is so much different from the past church.
I do think the FLDS are the true Mormon church that J Smith had in mind though. The SLC version is a mere shell of what it used to be.

It seems that dberrie has posted on this website for a few years. Amazing perseverance. My hats off to you for telling it like you see it & how you understand truth.
Most of the LDS I meet won't at all.

devils_ham

09-26-2016, 06:17 PM

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, not at all...at least not now. It may in the future...since it changes doctrines so much, it might.

devils_ham

09-26-2016, 06:20 PM

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, not at all...at least not now. It may in the future...since it changes doctrines so much, it might.

Christian

09-27-2016, 04:18 PM

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:

Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Worship of the ONE AND ONLY REAL GOD WHO REALLY EXISTS ANYWHERE (see Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc) Instead, you worship a supposedly 'heavenly father' who used to be a man, BECAME A GOD, but was a god from eternity to eternity, one of MANY GODS YOUR RELIGION TEACHES EXIST. (See pgp abraham3 and 4 of your unholy books)

devils_ham

10-30-2016, 10:07 AM

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

(Not sure if this will post or not....)

LDS doctrines seem to change ever couple of years.....so yeah it might become Christian as time p***es.

dberrie2000

10-30-2016, 01:59 PM

No, I don't believe it is....now. They have changed their doctrines so much, that maybe in a few years they will.

Which I hope they do. The LDS church now is so much different from the past church.

The NT church looked entirely different in the end of the Book of Acts than in the beginning.

dberrie2000

10-30-2016, 02:02 PM

(Not sure if this will post or not....)

LDS doctrines seem to change ever couple of years.....so yeah it might become Christian as time p***es.

When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

dberrie2000

10-30-2016, 02:13 PM

Worship of the ONE AND ONLY REAL GOD WHO REALLY EXISTS ANYWHERE

Would that be this one?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; [COLOR="#FF0000"]and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

devils_ham

10-30-2016, 03:18 PM

When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ok, this is true. Didnt mean to make it sound otherwise....
also says:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said, “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Doesnt it say anywhere in the Bible that you have to wear temple garments, abstain from tea/coffee, preform temple ordinances, that women can only get exaltation thru a marriage, etc.

dberrie2000

10-30-2016, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ok, this is true. Didnt mean to make it sound otherwise....

If it is--then faith alone theology is false, IMO. How do you fit the above scripture into faith alone theology?

also says:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said, “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

How does that somehow cover up or cancel out what the scriptures do bear testimony to, as truth-- IE:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Doesnt it say anywhere in the Bible that you have to wear temple garments,

You mean such as these?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

abstain from tea/coffee, preform temple ordinances,

Temple ordinances have been around for a long time.

that women can only get exaltation thru a marriage, etc.

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Devils--could you show us where repentance water baptism for the remission of sins--the gift of the Holy Ghost--apostles--Gentiles as priesthood holders--etc--is found in the OT?

IOW--the scriptures show whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations.

That is the way of God--we see it with Abraham, Moses, the NT--and the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Berean

01-11-2017, 08:37 AM

Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not. They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.

The finished product is verifiable evidence. The testimonies of the eyewitnesses are verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Nonsense.

I believe Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon from other authors.

Watch this video (https://www.christianfreespeechministries.com/forum/cults/mormonism/193-views-of-zion-episode-iii-the-evidence-for-mormonism)

It discusses in detail, the evidences concerning the history and archeology of the Book of Mormon and the facts surrounding the origin and translation of the Book of Abraham.

It also points to the writings of five contemporary authors whose books contained stories which Smith appears to have drawn from to write the Book of Mormon.

It also contrasts evidences for the Bible with those for the Book of Mormon. It is worth your time if you are truly interested in the truth.

Christian

01-11-2017, 08:56 AM

phoenix posted:

Maybe in your dreams he did.

IN REALITY, you cannot demonstrate that he did not.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

Now I am supposed to be 'terrified?" Naah, you give your cult too much credit. I am nauseated. I am saddened that you and others like you could accept such lies as if they came from God.

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

Nope, that is NOT what I say at all. OF COURSE he laced A LITTLE TRUTH INTO HIS LIES to make them seem real. That is what cons do.

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

Sorry, but nobody said I couldn't verify the FACT that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of the Living God. Your strawman argument is a logical and BIBLICAL fallacy.

Gotta go. Maybe I'll answer the rest of your junk later.

It is now later. . .

My car is at the tire shop getting its tires siped (slices in the tread instead of using tire chains). We have been pretty well snowed in for about a week. My wife fell today, only minor bumps, bruises, and road rash. . .thank Jesus!

Our local WalMart is closed for the day. The manger told me that the roof was overweighted and they were going to clear it and maybe open at 6:00 pm.

Joey smith plagarized a bunch of his junk. His whole fairytale about Christ in the Americas is fiction. . .there is no reasonable reason to believe that ANY of it ever happened.

His fake 'test' of the book of mormon by 'praying to see if it is true' is a dismal failure. Those of us who did so with a prayerful heart, open mind, and ONLY the desire to serve GOD AS HE DESIRES US TO DO, but got NEGATIVE ANSWERS to those prayers are accused of either not being faithful to God, or to not being sincere when we prayed that prayer. The TRUTH is that YOUR god lied.

Joey smith made up a bunch of whoppers. He is no more a 'prophet of God' than charles manson is.

Berean

01-11-2017, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 :When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?"

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If it is--then faith alone theology is false, IMO. How do you fit the above scripture into faith alone theology?

Jesus is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn't obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

8According as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."

9David says, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them.

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Bow down their back always."

How does that somehow cover up or cancel out what the scriptures do bear testimony to, as truth-- IE:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Cover up? That's a Mormon trait. Christians "expose" what Mormons try to cover up.

So to address your false dillema:

Matt 22:36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?" 37Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and great commandment. 39A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them."

John 6:28 They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Obviously grace and works cannot be mixed together since grace is unearned and undeserved. To work for something that cannot be earned is a contradiction. That's why Paul declared, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). If you can work for a "gift," then it is not a gift But, Rom. 6:23 says, "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

LDS do not believe that faith justifies anyone. Apostle Talmage said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil" (A. of F., p. 480). He also calls it a "pernicious doctrine" (Ibid., pp. 107, 480). But, Paul said, "We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28). He also declared, "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1). Paul warned, "But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8-9).

That last statement is a clear warning. Can any Mormon tell me why this does not apply to the angel Moroni, who allegedly did exactly what this warning tells us to watch for and reject?

You mean such as these?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Temple ordinances have been around for a long time.

See below for comments on your temple ordinances.

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Devils--could you show us where repentance water baptism for the remission of sins--the gift of the Holy Ghost--apostles--Gentiles as priesthood holders--etc--is found in the OT?

I can demonstrate precursors to all of those things in the O.T.

Can you explain why the Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines Mormonism practices today, including:

Aaronic priesthood
Baptisms for the dead
Celestial marriage
Church organization
Exaltation
Polytheism
Three heavens

IOW--the scriptures show whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations.

That is the way of God--we see it with Abraham, Moses, the NT--and the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations?

Nonsense.

Hebrews 1:1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

So much for your modern day prophets.

Christian

01-11-2017, 10:33 AM

You said that when you show gay people the flaws in their reasoning, the gays accuse you of somehow being terrified of them.
But you accused Mormons of running from you like scared little girls. So, according to your "gay" theory, the Mormons have shown you the flaws in your reasoning.

Is this your first attempt at logical thinking?

My 'logical thinking' is just fine. YOUR PUNY ATTEMPT to connect two unrelated concepts together to form some kind of "logic" is extremely flawed.

Mormons also sometimes run from swarms of bees. . .does that mean they are all gay?

We CHRISTIANS accuse the mormons of following false gods.
Does that mean that mormons are 'terrified' of us CHRISTIANS?

Sorry, but your illogical thinking reflects only your own confusion.

Christian

01-11-2017, 10:37 AM

No. You made the same mistake the other Mormon-hater made: you didn't realize that he accused Mormons of being afraid of him.....but later he said that accusing people of being afraid is what the gay community does.

Did you get it this time?

Your confusion still shows all over the place. . .

First off, I don't hate mormons at all; many of my FRIENDS are mormon. They are NOT afraid of ME, but they ARE afraid of the truths I offer. . .so they, like you, RUN AWAY from the original subject to pretend something else instead.

Then they falsely accuse us CHRISTIANS of 'being afraid' just like the gay community does.

Apologette

01-12-2017, 01:17 PM

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE

Sure the flannel-mouthed Smith made the whole thing up. He was a huckster, a snake oil salesman, who made a living by telling gullible farmers he could find treasure in their backyards. Smith, the Mormon prophet, didn't stop lying, he just changed his target - he made a new living deceiving spiritually gullible people into believing that he was in contact with God. As a result, we have a whole state called Utah which is noted for its scams:

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/money/52091892-79/ponzi-utah-state-fraud.html.csp

http://www.mormonstories.org/mormonism-and-financial-fraud-mark-pugsley/

Yup, folks - a CULTURE of fraud!

dberrie2000

02-07-2017, 05:38 AM

Jesus is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

But that only connects faith and works together--and begs this question:

Is "genuine faith" necessary to obtain eternal life?

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Paul is referencing certain rituals of the Mosaic law when he states "works"--not obedience to the gospel of Christ, obviously:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.