The final judgment

[dberrie2000]

If my salvation is maintained via my own actions, Im sunk.....LOL :)

I was wondering--just whose actions does one believe they will be judged for--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post If my salvation is maintained via my own actions, Im sunk.....LOL

I was wondering--just whose actions does one believe they will be judged for--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Anyone?

[alanmolstad]

I was wondering--just whose actions does one believe they will be judged


Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."






The Christian is not judged onto ****ation, rather the we have ALREADY p***ed from death onto life.

Therefor the "works' of the Christian are actually the works of the father in the life of the Christian.
By myself I can do nothing, it is the father in me who does the works though me.

This is why in the judgement the works that are in my life are actually the works of the Lord that were done though me.

these are the works that flow though me life and are part of my life for they come from the father and come out though me.

thus when Im judged the only works that are seen are the works of the lord and are his .


and this is why the Christian is not judged on to condemnation, for the works that are part of my life are the Lords works, for by myself i can do nothing...it is the father in me, it is he who does the works though me.





and "I" have already p***ed from death onto Life!

[dberrie2000]

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[alanmolstad]

Are these the ones who believed?

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
The works that a Christian does are nothing but the works of the father in him doing the works.
Alone I can do nothing....this is why it says we are saved by GRACE though FAITH and not by works!>

Im not saved by works because my works are not my own but are the fathers works done though me.

This also why the Lord says that the burden of being a Christian is light. (Matthew 11:30)

There are no rules to follow,,,no laws to keep,,,,no sacrifices to offer...

All that i do is what flows naturally out of my heart.

The commandments of Jesus are what?......they are the things that naturally flow out of the heart of the christian....

Indeed, if you love the Lord and love others as yourself, you have done all that the lord's commandments have pointed to.....and lack nothing.

[alanmolstad]

So when i die, I will not face a judgement onto condemnation.

Rather I will be rewarded for the works that the Lord was able to do though me.



I have already p***ed from death onto Life....
I have no fear of my judgement, for all accounts were settled for me on the cross.

The debt has been paid in full.....

Not a single sin will be charged against me......not even the slightest sin will be held against me...

[dberrie2000]

I have no fear of my judgement, for all accounts were settled for me on the cross.

The debt has been paid in full.....

If the debt has been paid in full unto eternal life for you--or anyone--then why are all judged according to works--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[B]Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 ]Who will render to every man according to his deeds:[/COLOR]
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The debt was paid for all men that they MIGHT have eternal life--but that did not give anyone anyone eternal life--as a personal reception.

That is given to them which walk in His light:

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[dberrie2000]

The works that a Christian does are nothing but the works of the father in him doing the works.

The Father is not on trial here:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.


2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[alanmolstad]

The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

[alanmolstad]

The Lost are judged onto their ****ation.

The Christian however is not....for we receive our reward.



The Lost are condemned due to their evil deeds.

But the Christian is blessed, for our works our not our own but are of the father who worked his will in and though our lives.

[alanmolstad]

Will Christians be judged for their sins?

So the answer to your question is no. We will be judged for our works after salvation, not our sins. Our sins are washed away because we have received Jesus as Savior. Hebrews 10:12 records, he offered one sacrifice for sins forever. No record of our sin remains (Hebrews 8:12; Micah 7:19). He took our sin upon Himself and defeated it with His sacrificial death and glorious resurrection. The judgment seat of Christ is not a judgment as to whether we are saved or lost, it is to determine our reward in heaven


http://www.cagsuperior.org/custpage.cfm/frm/26597/sec_id/26597

[alanmolstad]

How Will Believers Be Judged?


Believers need not cower or hang their heads during the judgment. Nor are we to repent—the time for that is past. We will stand before the Lord, clothed in Christ’s righteousness and forgiven of every single sin.


http://www.jesus.org/following-jesus/repentance-faith-and-salvation/how-will-believers-be-judged.html

[alanmolstad]

The Future Judgment of the Believer

When Christians stand before the bema of Christ, it will be for the express purpose of being rewarded according to their works. There is no idea of inflicting punishment.

https://bible.org/seriespage/6-future-judgment-believer

[alanmolstad]

What Will Christians Be Judged For?

For believers, judgment is not to determine whether we’re good enough for Heaven. We’re not, but our names are written in the Book. The Judgment Seat of Christ is expressly for rewarding us for our good deeds. The prize is to hear “Well done, good and faithful servant” (Matthew 25:23).

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/newreply.php?p=170728&noquote=1

[alanmolstad]

Bible Question:

If we are a true born again Christian, are we judged before the rapture or after? The Bible says we are all judged.


Bible Answer:Every person will be judged some day – even Christians.

Christians – those who are going to heaven because Jesus has forgiven their sins – will discover that God will judge their works too! But this judgment is to evaluate the “spiritual works” we did in this life. It is not for punishment.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/when-are-christians-judged/

[dberrie2000]

Will Christians be judged for their sins?

So the answer to your question is no.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[dberrie2000]

Bible Question:

If we are a true born again Christian, are we judged before the rapture or after? The Bible says we are all judged.

Bible Answer:Every person will be judged some day – even Christians.

Christians – those who are going to heaven because Jesus has forgiven their sins – will discover that God will judge their works too!

Just a note here, Alan.

Jesus Christ testified the judgment of all men was for life or ****ation--not a judgment to see what rewards one receives in heaven--that is a fabricated tale, IMO:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Where do we find in the Biblical NT--any witness testifying we are judged according to works after we receive eternal life?

[alanmolstad]

The lost are judged...
But we Christians are rewarded....

For the Lost are judged on their evil deeds...
But the Christian has no sins to repent of.....thus the only thing to deal with is the matter of our reward according to the works that God was able to do though our lives.

[alanmolstad]

for they are truly not my works, but the lord's...for by myself i can do nothing.
if I do works it is the father that is doing the works though me.

thus I can not take credit for my works.....

[alanmolstad]

and as we have seen...there is only ONE work that matters to the lord...it is thee work...

And that lone work is to believe in Jesus.
For we are saved by grace though faith, and not by our works..
for the works of the lords that are worked though us.

[alanmolstad]

What Will Christians Be Judged For?

For believers, judgment is not to determine whether we’re good enough for Heaven. We’re not, but our names are written in the Book. The Judgment Seat of Christ is expressly for rewarding us for our good deeds. The prize is to hear “Well done, good and faithful servant” (Matthew 25:23).

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/newreply.php?p=170728&noquote=1


So for the Lost the judgement is for their condemnation.....and for the Christian it is a time of our rewards...
How I look forward to that day! :)

[dberrie2000]

for they are truly not my works, but the lord's...for by myself i can do nothing.
if I do works it is the father that is doing the works though me.

thus I can not take credit for my works.....

Seeing that all men will be judged according to their own works--I don't find where you will have a choice for taking credit for your own works.

You don't believe God is on trial here--do you?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[alanmolstad]

Seeing that all men will be judged according to their own works-.see post #14

[dberrie2000]

I was wondering--just whose actions does one believe they will be judged for--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Bump for anyone.

[jude1:3]

The most important thing is if your name is written in The Book of Life:



Revelation 20:10-15



The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.




http://www.orthodoximages.com/images/icons/lastjudgment_5x10.jpg

[jude1:3]

I must admit, I need to do more good works. I'm not trusting in my works for salvation, but I definetley feel God is calling me to do more good works like feed the poor etc.

[Berean]

I was wondering--just whose actions does one believe they will be judged for--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
True repentance for a LDS requires rejecting the free gift of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and attempting to overcome ALL sin in one's life, even the desire to sin, all on one's own, and in this lifetime.

If a LDS should die prior to becoming truly repentant, meaning having achieved the same sinlessness that Jesus Christ achieved, he/she is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. For example:

“Forgive Them, I Pray Thee”
Vaughn J. Featherstone October 1980
For one to be forgiven of sin, the Lord requires that he come unto him, mourn over his sins, forsake the sins, be teachable, forgive others, and confess..Again, in the fifty-eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, we read, “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins* behold, he will confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:43). ...actual forgiveness cannot take place until true repentance has preceded it. https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...-thee?lang=eng (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/10/forgive-them-i-pray-thee?lang=eng)

When Kimball says: "Through sincere repentance and the Savior’s redeeming power, we can experience the miracle of forgiveness" he's being deceptive in that the "Savior's redeeming power" actually amounts to "you" overcoming your own sin in the same way that Jesus Christ overcame His. But neither Jesus nor His Power have anything to do with that. It's all your own doing. This is just more smoke and mirrors.

Kimball goes on to say: [One of the purposes] of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to call people everywhere to repentance. Those who heed the call, whether members or nonmembers of the Church, can be partakers of the miracle of forgiveness. God will wipe away from their eyes the tears of anguish, and remorse, and consternation, and fear, and guilt. Dry eyes will replace the wet ones, and smiles of satisfaction will replace the worried, anxious look.What relief! What comfort! What joy! Those laden with transgressions and sorrows and sin may be forgiven and cleansed and purified if they will return to their Lord, learn of him, and keep his commandments. And all of us needing to repent of day-to-day follies and weaknesses can likewise share in this miracle.4 (https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-spencer-w-kimball/chapter-4?lang=eng#4-36500_000_008)

Evidently non LDS can also partake of the miracle of forgiveness!

The problem though, is that no one can ever experience "hope" under those impossible conditions, and the "miracle of forgiveness" doublespeak is not really something you can rely on. For example: Kimball further says:

“Sin is the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4), and for such transgression a punishment is affixed under eternal law. Every normal individual is responsible for the sins he commits, and would be similarly liable to the punishment attached to those broken laws. However, Christ’s death on the cross offers us exemption from the eternal punishment for most sins. He took upon himself the punishment for the sins of all the world, with the understanding that those who repent and come unto him will be forgiven of their sins and freed from the punishment."7 (https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-spencer-w-kimball/chapter-4?lang=eng#7-36500_000_008)

This paragraph contains several contradictions. Kimball clearly indicates that Christ's death on the cross offers exemption from eternal punishment for "most" sins, but yet, one must still repent (stop sinning) those sins "before" forgiveness can be experienced. That's double talk. Christ's death either exempts sin, or it does not. Kimball makes the sufficiency of Christ's Atoning Sacrifice on the Cross, entirely dependent upon the sufficiency of "your" good works. Clearly this is not Scriptural.

Note also that Kimball claims Christ's death on the cross only covers "most" sins, yet Kimball goes on to say He took upon Himself the punishment "for the sins of all the world." More double talk.

And finally Kimball claims those who repent and "come unto him" will be forgiven their sins and freed from punishment. Again this is double talk. "Coming unto him" has no relevance to the equation. What is most important is that one must become completely sinless, and in this lifetime, or you are sealed to Satan in your sin, for eternity in the lake of fire. (Alma 11:37)

Kimball also said: … Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his ***hing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. … God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life. …

And finally Kimball quotes the Bible: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28–30.)

More doublespeak. Perfecting oneself as Christ Perfected Himself by denying yourself of ALL ungodliness is not an easy yoke and a light burden. However, allowing Jesus to place my burden upon Himself by allowing His Work on the Cross to pay for my sins instead of my own labor, is the true meaning of these verses.

Once you tell a lie, you have to keep telling lies, and eventually the truth catches up with you.

Consequently Mormon leaders have twisted their own doctrines as well as the Word of God into unintelligible pretzels, in an attempt to give legitimacy to their false teachings, while saddling their followers with impossible obstacles to overcome in order to receive the rewards they have been promised.

This is the same ruse the Pharisees were guilty of in Jesus' time:

... They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. ... Matt 23:4