Biblical Mormonism

[dberrie2000]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus never tried to sex-up a young girl by telling her that it would guarantee the future of her mom and dad's salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus never tried to sex-up a young girl by telling her that it would guarantee the future of her mom and dad's salvation.



"Newel K. Whitney, Sarah Ann's father was promised by Smith to receive "eternal life to all your house, both old and young," by having Sarah Ann marry him.[51]

He told Helen Mar Kimball in front of her father, Heber C. Kimball, that: "If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred."[52]

Helen Mar felt pressure to do this even though she didn't want to because "the salvation of our whole family depended on it.

"[53] Lucy Walker, like the other two girls was told by Smith that by marrying him, "that it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father's house." But after several hesitations, Lucy was informed of the other side of Smith's sealing power. He told her that rejecting his offer would bring eternal ****ation. Of his marriage proposal to her, Smith said: "It is a command of God to you .. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you."[54]

Flora Ann Woodworth may have also been persuaded by her parents Lucien and Phebe Woodworth, "to marry [Smith] to secure her family's salvation."[55]"






in Mormonism this teaching is called Holy and the person that came up with the idea is called a "Prophet"

Im a Christian,and I call such ideas crazy....and I call the people that spread such ideas "Monsters"

[Christian]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You are worshiping the wrong god. . .a god amongst many gods you think exist instead of the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE, EVER Who speaks to us in Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc.

Following the wrong gods will lead you to Hell.

[alanmolstad]

You are worshiping the wrong god. . .a god amongst many gods you think exist instead of the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE, EVER Who speaks to us in Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc.

Following the wrong gods will lead you to Hell.



Christian, I have a question about the Mormons that you might be able to help me with...

As you have pointed out, in the recorded history of the acts of Joe Smith (the Mormon Prophet) we find that some of the parents of young girls would agree to allow their daughter to sleep with Joe Smith as it would mean the ***ured salvation for the family and many blessings.

So this idea of pimping-out your daughter as a means to get salvation as taught by the Mormon founder, doyou find that when you show current members of the Mormon church this type of well-known history of what they were doing back then is shocking to the Mormons when they learn it?....or do they tend to pull the blinders over their eyes to such information?

[dberrie2000]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Jesus never tried to sex-up a young girl by telling her that it would guarantee the future of her mom and dad's salvation.

And where do we find any of that, as salvational doctrines--in the Biblical NT?

Care to address the scriptures?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Jesus never tried to sex-up a young girl by telling her that it would guarantee the future of her mom and dad's salvation.

"Newel K. Whitney, Sarah Ann's father was promised by Smith to receive "eternal life to all your house, both old and young," by having Sarah Ann marry him.[51]

He told Helen Mar Kimball in front of her father, Heber C. Kimball, that: "If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father's household & all of your kindred."[52]

Helen Mar felt pressure to do this even though she didn't want to because "the salvation of our whole family depended on it.

"[53] Lucy Walker, like the other two girls was told by Smith that by marrying him, "that it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father's house." But after several hesitations, Lucy was informed of the other side of Smith's sealing power. He told her that rejecting his offer would bring eternal ****ation. Of his marriage proposal to her, Smith said: "It is a command of God to you .. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you."[54]

Flora Ann Woodworth may have also been persuaded by her parents Lucien and Phebe Woodworth, "to marry [Smith] to secure her family's salvation."[55]"


in Mormonism this teaching is called Holy and the person that came up with the idea is called a "Prophet"

Im a Christian,and I call such ideas crazy....and I call the people that spread such ideas "Monsters"

Alan--the OP is a challenge to find something in the Biblical NT--which is not found in the LDS church.

Here is something not found in any faith alone theology:

Matthew 19:16-19----King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Care to address the Biblical scriptures?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


You are worshiping the wrong god. . .a god amongst many gods you think exist instead of the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE, EVER Who speaks to us in Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc.

Following the wrong gods will lead you to Hell.

That seems to be one of the usual retorts whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology--or one is challenged to ante up the goods--and they realize they are unable to do so.

Christian--the challenge is to post scriptures showing salvational doctrines which are found in the Biblical text--and not found in the LDS church--and if one were able to do so--their fingers would be stomping down on the keys so hard and fast, the keyboard would appear as a rice paddy just trampled through by a herd of cape buffalo.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus never tried to sex-up a young girl by telling her that it would guarantee the future of her mom and dad's salvation.

on the other hand, if the Mormon founder and Prophet Smith was correct and that all these young girls that he talked into having sex with him did actually ***ure their whole family's salvation as he claimed, then in that case we really cant condemn the fathers who pimped-out their own daughters to him...


I guess it all depends on if the Mormon Prophet was right about that way to gain salvation or not?

[dberrie2000]

I guess it all depends on if the Mormon Prophet was right about that way to gain salvation or not?

He might have had some allies:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[DrDavidT]

There is no such thing as biblical mormonism/ the mormon cult does not follow the bible and since smith edited it to fit his ideas the mormons do not have a clue how far from being biblical they are.

[DrDavidT]

There is no such thing as biblical mormonism/ the mormon cult does not follow the bible and since smith edited it to fit his ideas the mormons do not have a clue how far from being biblical they are.

[dberrie2000]

There is no such thing as biblical mormonism/ the mormon cult does not follow the bible and since smith edited it to fit his ideas

The official Bible of the LDS is the KJV. What are you claiming Joseph Smith edited in the KJV?

[Christian]

berry posted:


Originally Posted by Christian
You are worshiping the wrong god. . .a god amongst many gods you think exist instead of the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE, EVER Who speaks to us in Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc.

Following the wrong gods will lead you to Hell.

That seems to be one of the usual retorts whenever scriptures are posted that defy faith alone theology--or one is challenged to ante up the goods--and they realize they are unable to do so.

No matter HOW OFTEN you post your own 'perverted version' of faith alone theology we will keep CORRECTING your error. Your ERROR doesn't seem to change, so the SCRIPTURE we point out to you to CORRECT YOU remains the same, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc. YOUR garbage may change with regularity, but the TRUTH remains the same. And the TRUTHFUL RESPONSES remain the same.

Christian--the challenge is to post scriptures showing salvational doctrines which are found in the Biblical text--and not found in the LDS church--and if one were able to do so--their fingers would be stomping down on the keys so hard and fast, the keyboard would appear as a rice paddy just trampled through by a herd of cape buffalo.

TRUTHFUL salvation leads you to the GOD OF THE BIBLE, not a man who became a god, but in theory has never changed and never will (from eternity past to eternity future). Following the WRONG GOD as the mormons do, the REAL Gospel is not found in mormonism, but only a FAKE god that used to be a man (NOT the God of the Bible). You HAVE NO GOSPEL FOR SALVATION since no salvation is found in your FALSE GODS AND FALSE PROPHET.

The false gospel, the one your false religion with its false gods and demon-spirit-brother-of-satan-'jesus' does not come from the REAL GOD AT ALL

THIS is the REAL GOSPEL and it talks about the REAL JESUS CHRIST (not joey smith's imaginary 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus):

1 Cor 15:1-8
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.


3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
NKJV

Not ONE WORD about 'if you keep the ordinances, laws, or pigskins' that your manmade religions tell you to keep.

CHRIST taught that we are SAVED BY FAITH and NOT OF WORKS (Ephesians 2:8-9)

YOU HAVE BEEN CORRECTED for your OUT OF CONTEXT USE of the James p***age. IT describes what 'a man (who) SAYS . . .'sees, NOT WHAT GOD SEES. You obviously do not understand the WORD OF GOD.

Is that because you are the 'natural man' of 1 Cor 2:14?

[dberrie2000]

No matter HOW OFTEN you post your own 'perverted version' of faith alone theology we will keep CORRECTING your error.

Then perhaps you will busy yourself with correcting my version of faith alone theology:

Matthew 19:16-19King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Berean]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

First off, what James is implying is that faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ, clearly has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. So when we refer to salvation by faith alone, we are only referring to those Christians who are truly saved, and who will also do good works as a result of their salvation, not as the means. And, those works have no effect on one's salvation since they are after the fact. Only those who are saved are enabled by the Holy Spirit to do good works. All this means is that those Christians who are lacking in works, are not truly saved. It doesn't mean that works are the means by which one is saved.

James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead. I suspect you focus on dead faith because Mormons have no faith.

To demonstrate salvation doctrines that are found in the Bible that are not found in the LDS Church, one only need look at the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, plus nothing. That doctrine is actually taught in the Book of Mormon, but Mormons have abandoned the tenets of the Book of Mormon in favor of later teachings of Joseph Smith which can be found in the D&C and PofGP.

There are no Biblical teachings being currently taught in the LDS faith that I know of. Mormons use some of the same words as Christians, but the meanings are entirely different. In fact, I challenge you to show me a Biblical doctrine that LDS doctrine has not completely usurped, demonized or abandoned the original meaning completely.

As far as teachings found in the Bible and the Book of Mormon that are not found in Mormonism, we find:



One God manifest in Three Persons; Father, Son and Holy Spirit;
God is Spirit;
Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation,
no preexistence for man;
Salvation without baptism;
Heaven or hell;
Polygamy condemned; etc.


The above teachings can be found both in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, but have been abandoned by the LDS. Polygamy is outwardly condemned but is still practiced by some Mormon sects, and is still considered a valid doctrine that all Mormons acknowledge in some regard. Such as a man being sealed to a dead woman or a widow being sealed to another (living or dead) man.

Another curious fact is that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are silent on the peculiar doctrines that separate Mormonism from Christianity, including:



Aaronic priesthood
Baptisms for the dead
Celestial marriage
Mormon Church organization
Exaltation
Polytheism
Three heavens


Can you explain this for us DBerrie?

[Berean]

Then perhaps you will busy yourself with correcting my version of faith alone theology:

Matthew 19:16-19King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Allow me to correct your version of faith alone theology:

It's not about doing good things. It's about having faith in Christ alone.

That wasn't hard.

[dberrie2000]

Allow me to correct your version of faith alone theology: It's not about doing good things.

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[Christian]

Biblical mormonism = an oxymoron

[Christian]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

EASY PICKINS!!

1. The Only TRUE God anywhere, NOT the 'one god of many gods supposedly extant in the mormon religion
2. The ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of the ONLY true God anywhere, Jesus Christ, NOT the false jesus of the mormons who is supposedly one of zillions of 'spirit sons and daughters' plopped out by the supposed mormon 'mother goddesses.'
NOT a 'spirit-brother-of-satan' demon 'jesus' of the mormons

THOSE mormon gods can't save anyone from anything!

[dberrie2000]

EASY PICKINS!!

1. The Only TRUE God anywhere,

This One?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


2. The ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of the ONLY true God anywhere, Jesus Christ,

That only separates the "one God" from God the Son.

[Christian]

This One?


The ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of the ONLY true God anywhere, Jesus Christ,

That only separates the "one God" from God the Son.

It ALSO DEBUNKS the mormon theory that the TRUE God 'fathered' a bunch of demons like satan, your supposed 'spirit brother of your demonic jesus.'

(See John 3:16; it's NOT TALKING ABOUT "SEPARATING" ANYTHING," of course. berry likes to take things OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT to try to force them to make his points. It doesn't work at all. . . NOBODY believes him, apparently not even the mormons who seem to have left out of embarr***ment because he tries to 'identify' with them.)

[dberrie2000]

It ALSO DEBUNKS the mormon theory that the TRUE God 'fathered' a bunch of demons like satan,

If God the Father did not Father all spirits--then could you please identify the God who fathered the remainder of the spirits?

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Is that some spirits--or all spirits?

[alanmolstad]

who fathered ?

"fathered"?

Who came up with that term?

Is that like a verb?





anyway, the Bible teaches that while God is in fact the 'creator" of all things, He is yet only the "Father" of they who have a relationship with Him.

This is why the devil is called the "Father" of the lost, for they lack this needed relationship with God.


(see John 8:44)



So God is the creator of the universe, he is yet only the father of they whom he has this relationship with.
Yet some may point out that God is called the father of all the spirits, and to understand this we also need to remember that Eve is called the "mother of all life", or "all" the living....

yet we know Eve was not the mother of all the living, for she did not give birth to Adam, nor the animals.

So this points us to the understanding that when the Bible makes use of the term 'all" we have to see it in the context of 'all they that are in a close and particular relationship with".....


thus we can agree that God is the father of all spirits, as long as we understand this is only talking about the good angels or its speaks of the spirit's of saved men, , and not the demons or the lost men..

And this agrees with the words of Christ who points out that lost men are said to have as their "father" the devil.



so to answer the question: The answer is that God is the father to only the spirits who he has the needed relationship with, and this is then in agreement with the words of Jesus who said that some men have the devil as their father.

...and as no one can have 2 fathers of their flesh, nor two fathers of their spirit.......

[dberrie2000]

"fathered"?

Who came up with that term?

Is that like a verb?

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So--who fathered you? Was it the one who is the father of your flesh?

[alanmolstad]

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

So--who fathered you? Was it the one who is the father of your flesh?
again, is that a term used?

[alanmolstad]

I mean, who told you of such a term?

[alanmolstad]

if a person is making up words, then they cant run around and ask me to believe in them and use them, as I dont have to.

The Bible is written clearly enough that for most of the time we dont need to invent private words that might mean one thing to one person and another to the next.

If you want to use a word that is strange, then you have to define it clearly.....and not only say what it means, but also say what it does NOT mean!





I dont want to say anything like the idea that some well-known Mormons use to teach about an Adam' God sexing-up Mary.

[dberrie2000]

I mean, who told you of such a term?

fa·ther---verb
past tense: fathered; past participle: fathered

be the father of."he fathered three children"

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

[alanmolstad]

used in the Bible at any time?....

[alanmolstad]

I mean, perhaps it is a valid term the Bible makes use of?...I dont really know.

I ask because it seems kinda odd to my ears, and its like you are making use of a odd term for some unknown reason???


Is the word used at any point in the bible so i can see some type of context to how to use it?

if not?..then i will ask to use a different word.

[dberrie2000]

I mean, perhaps it is a valid term the Bible makes use of?...I dont really know.

I ask because it seems kinda odd to my ears, and its like you are making use of a odd term for some unknown reason???

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The reason was given:

fa·ther---verb

past tense: fathered; past participle: fathered

be the father of."he fathered three children"

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

So--care to answer my question, IE--if God the Father did not Father all spirits--then could you reveal to us who you believe Fathered the remainder?

[alanmolstad]

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The reason was given:

fa·ther---verb

past tense: fathered; past participle: fathered

be the father of."he fathered three children"

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

So--care to answer my question, IE--if God the Father did not Father all spirits--then could you reveal to us who you believe Fathered the remainder?

So we cant quote a verse in the whole Bible then that makes use of the odd term "fathered"?



How interesting......

[alanmolstad]

-if God the Father did not Father all spirits?




?


"Did not father"?

Who talks in this manner about God?
Is this a CULT thing?
Do members of off-shoot non-Christian CULTs do this all the time?

[alanmolstad]

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

?

God does not spawn

God does not sire

God does not breed

God does not "more".......

If that is what you think is true about God?, if that is why you try to twist into the conversation "Fathered" then Im going to have to say......"You are on your own".




Im not going to play that game.
That stuff is evil...

[dberrie2000]

God does not sire

Merriam Webster

father Synonyms---beget, get, sire

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Since when are offspring not sired?

Definition of sire
1a : Father

[dberrie2000]

?"Did not father"?

Who talks in this manner about God? Is this a CULT thing?

Was this a "cult thing"?

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That is a reference to God?

[alanmolstad]

God does not spawn

God does not sire

God does not breed

God does not "more".......

.

such things should not need to be said, but I guess they do.
It's very sad that there are religions that would teach such evil ideas, but I guess there are some CULTS that are just truly are the real children of their father the devil....

[alanmolstad]

when Jesus said that the Devil is the father of the lost, he was not saying that the Devil showed up one day when no one was looking, like Smith, and had sex with a girl to make a baby...


When I call God "Our Father" Im not even slightly hinting at the evil teaching that God had some type of sex with someone to make a baby..
God does not have any genitalia...God does not reproduce....God does not go out on "dates"
God does not "score" with chicks...

[dberrie2000]

such things should not need to be said, but I guess they do.
It's very sad that there are religions that would teach such evil ideas, but I guess there are some CULTS that are just truly are the real children of their father the devil....

Since when is God the Father--"the devil"?

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

[dberrie2000]

When I call God "Our Father" Im not even slightly hinting at the evil teaching that God had some type of sex with someone to make a baby..
God does not have any genitalia...God does not reproduce....God does not go out on "dates"
God does not "score" with chicks...

Whatever you believe God does or does not do--the scriptures testify God the Father is the Father of spirits--and they His offspring:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Those who share the same Father are always brothers and sisters.

So--could you reveal to us what other God you believe Fathers spirits?

[alanmolstad]

....

So--could you reveal to us what other God you believe Fathers spirits?
"fathers"?

the verb?.....LOL:D

[alanmolstad]

I would like to know where that "verb" is in the Bible?...

[dberrie2000]

I would like to know where that "verb" is in the Bible?...

fa·ther---verb

past tense: fathered; past participle: fathered

be the father of."he fathered three children"

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

So--care to answer my question, IE--if God the Father did not Father all spirits--then could you reveal to us who you believe Fathered the remainder?

[alanmolstad]

So,.,,,cant find any use in the Bible of a term you love to use .....?

Is there any use of the term in church history?.....any Church council that came out with a paper on it's use?

Nothing?

It's just your private favorite word?

You cant find anyone else in the Bible that makes use of it as well?.....You got nothing at all to support it's use?


Thats too bad,,,, that's got to be embarr***ing...

[alanmolstad]

so you use that term "fathered" all the time.
I have seen you post that term all over the message board...

Yet are you telling me now that you cant find one single place in the whole Bible where it's used to talk about God?

Do you even have a video of Walter Martin using it to talk about God?

Are you saying that no Christian church in history ever came out with a official paper on the use of the term "Fathered" when speaking of God?


So you got nothing in the Bible to support its use,
You got no official church in history to back it's use
and you cant point to any well-known Bible teachers that use the term as you use it.

So there is nothing historical in the whole history of the church to back it up?

You cant point to anyone else using the same term as you use it ?




well?

Well thats kinda makes you look like a "cult-of-one"......where you got your own little private thing going on there... LOL

[dberrie2000]

so you use that term "fathered" all the time.

I have seen you post that term all over the message board...

That's what Fathers do--they Father.

If you are speaking about a past tense form of Father--that's Fathered.

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Since the spirit in your body has already been Fathered--then the usage would be "Fathered"--as the dictionary indicates:

fa·ther---verb

past tense: fathered; past participle: fathered

be the father of."he fathered three children"

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

So--care to answer my question, IE--if God the Father did not Father all spirits--then could you reveal to us who you believe Fathered the remainder?

[alanmolstad]

so not a single verse in the Bible can support your use of the word?.....

that's very "Interesting".

I know that at my mom's church that Father Nelson, nor Father Larson have ever did any of the "bringing into the world" stuff....
They did not "spawn"

They did not "sire"
They did not "breed".....LOL


I think your whole argument just fell like a house of cards!


You wording is not based on the Bible,
nor church history,
and you cant name one single church that has an official paper out allowing the use of the term "fathered" as talking about the Lord....

Nor can you even name one single Bible teacher that makes use of the term as you do????


In other words, you hang all your argument on the use of a term that you seem to be the only one in the world that uses in this manner.


So I get the feeling that you are just making up these things ......:)







Now you get back to me if and when you find some type of supporter for your word.
...But right now I really dont think I have the time to deal with guys that come out of the woodwork with their own private teachings and wordings.

[BigJulie]

So we cant quote a verse in the whole Bible then that makes use of the odd term "fathered"?



How interesting......

It is interesting you are making such a big deal about this. The term Father is used quite heavily in the scriptures. In fact, God the Father denotes Christ as his only begotten Son.

On the other hand, there is not one scripture that uses the term trinity, not in any form.

If your argument is that if a word is not there, it must not be doctrinal--well, you just undid the very foundation of your belief in God.

[alanmolstad]

It is interesting you are making such a big deal about this. The term Father is used quite heavily in the scriptures. In fact, God the Father denotes Christ as his only begotten Son.

On the other hand, there is not one scripture that uses the term trinity, not in any form.

If your argument is that if a word is not there, it must not be doctrinal--well, you just undid the very foundation of your belief in God.

I think if you were to read again what I have said, you might see that I have asked for any supports at all?...(in other words, pay better attention)

Is the word found in the Bible?

Is the word listed in any historical Christian Church council as a term that is to be used when talking about God?

Is the word used by any well known church Bible teacher, (Like Walter Martin)?


Is there any real trust-able source that a person can quote that does use the term "Fathered" when talking about God?


Or....is this just a term that one guy dreamed up then built a whole set of beliefs on top of?...






all Im asking for is a few other voices that have used the same word so i can see how its been used in context.



Right now all I see is one guy stacking his whole pile of teachings on one word that only he seems to use...




In other words, The CULT of one......one guy.....



I have run into this type of thing before, where one lone guy thinks that he has "unlocked" a secret of the Bible.....

I dont have time to deal with such foolishness, so unless I start seeing some "Fathered" verses listed, or some historical references, or a quoted Bible scholar or two, Im going to chalk further conversation with this member up to being - "Not worth my time".

[dberrie2000]

I think if you were to read again what I have said, you might see that I have asked for any supports at all?...(in other words, pay better attention)

Is the word found in the Bible?

Yes, Alan--the word is found in the Biblical text--on a number of occasions. The text I gave testifies God is the Father of the spirits of men:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Again--the past tense form of that would be "Fathered":

fa·ther---verb

past tense: fathered; past participle: fathered

be the father of."he fathered three children"

synonyms: parent, be the father of, bring into the world, spawn, sire, breed; More

So--care to answer my question, IE--if God the Father did not Father all spirits--then could you reveal to us who you believe Fathered the remainder?

The same true with the testimony of Jesus Christ being the Only Begotten Son of God:


begotten---https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten

"Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered."

[alanmolstad]

once again,,,you fail to list a single verse in the whole Bible than makes the same use of a term you pile your whole theology on top of...


You cant list another historical reference of the christian church makeing use of the same term.

You cant even list another person , like a Bible translator or teacher, that makes the same use of the term in connection with God..



Thus your whole theology is shown now to be based just on your own personal views* and not worth my time to deal with.

( * Your argument appears as silly to me as if I were listening to someone say that Jesus was made of wood because he called himself a "door" as in - "Yes Alan, Jesus called himself a door, and every door in the Bible is made of wood, And Alan I can back this up by quoting a dictionary where it lists what all bible-age doors were constructed of" )




....such foolishness

[dberrie2000]

once again,,,you fail to list a single verse in the whole Bible than makes the same use of a term you pile your whole theology on top of...

I don't pile my whole theology on any single scripture I have posted, but I do believe what the scriptures testify to, that is--God the Father is the Father of the spirits of men:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

IOW--our spirits were Fathered by God the Father--just as our mortal bodies were fathered by our earthly parents(please see the context in above scripture)

[BigJulie]

once again,,,you fail to list a single verse in the whole Bible than makes the same use of a term you pile your whole theology on top of...


You cant list another historical reference of the christian church makeing use of the same term.

You cant even list another person , like a Bible translator or teacher, that makes the same use of the term in connection with God..



Thus your whole theology is shown now to be based just on your own personal views* and not worth my time to deal with.

( * Your argument appears as silly to me as if I were listening to someone say that Jesus was made of wood because he called himself a "door" as in - "Yes Alan, Jesus called himself a door, and every door in the Bible is made of wood, And Alan I can back this up by quoting a dictionary where it lists what all bible-age doors were constructed of" )

So, are you stating that if you can't find a single word in the Bible, but you can find other "translators or teachers"--then it is doctrinal? But on the other hand, if you can find the word and idea multiple times in the Bible, but you can't find other "translators or teachers" it is not doctrinal?




....such foolishness


So, are you stating that if you can't find a single word in the Bible, but you can find other "translators or teachers"--then it is doctrinal? But on the other hand, if you can find the word and idea multiple times in the Bible, but you can't find other "translators or teachers" it is not doctrinal?

This explains so much.

[alanmolstad]

So, are you stating that if you can't find a single word in the Bible, ......



from time to time I run into guys that think that got it all figured out...

They think that have discovered some type of super-secret new way to understand the Bible .

But what i have seen true here is that they got no clear verse in the Bible that agrees with the way they use a non-Bible term.|

They got their lucky word that they hang their whole theology on but it does not actually appear in the text...

and that when you ask for any type of supporting voices from either Church history, or from a Bible scholar to get a bit more context of how the same word is used by others?.. they got nothing.

They cant find a single verse that supports the way they use a word that they pile everything on top of.

They cant point to the use of that word in Christian Church history

They cant name any translator or Bible teacher like Dr Walter Martin that support their views.


They got nothing....just an invented word and squat else.




So when i find that they got nothing to back up their views, then guess what I do?...

I just smile ...... :)







I mean I don't mind leading a few horses to the water,,,but , after a while .....

[BigJulie]

from time to time I run into guys that think that got it all figured out...

They think that have discovered some type of super-secret new way to understand the Bible .

But what i have seen true here is that they got no clear verse in the Bible that agrees with the way they use a non-Bible term.|

They got their lucky word that they hang their whole theology on but it does not actually appear in the text... I could not agree with you more. The word "trinity" comes to mind.


and that when you ask for any type of supporting voices from either Church history, or from a Bible scholar to get a bit more context of how the same word is used by others?.. they got nothing.

They cant find a single verse that supports the way they use a word that they pile everything on top of.

They cant point to the use of that word in Christian Church history

They cant name any translator or Bible teacher like Dr Walter Martin that support their views.
I agree completely again. Trinity is the perfect example, pile after pile of doctrine based on a single word, but pre-300 AD, the idea is not there, just not history at all. Not in the Bible, not historically out of the Bible.




They got nothing....just an invented word and squat else. Yes, who did invent the word trinity? Certainly not God and certainly none of the Biblical writers.





So when i find that they got nothing to back up their views, then guess what I do?...

I just smile ...... :) Good idea. :)








I mean I don't mind leading a few horses to the water,,,but , after a while ..... Exactly why I do not post in here much anymore.

[alanmolstad]

You can find the word "Trinity" as used in the context of the Christian God in Christian church history

You can find the word Trinity used by Bible translators...

You can find the word Trinity used by Bible teachers like Dr Walter Martin.


So you can look at the term with this much support to it and understand how it is used in context...



You dont have to take one guy's word...

Thus when I use the term "Trinity:" you know its not just my own little "Magic word", rather you know Im using a term that is well known and commonly used in the same way by the entire christian church ...and that im not just some type of wing-nut, making up stuff to fit my ideas.


So you see, there is a big difference.


When I use a term like Trinity...or like "omnipotent".....you know I have a firm foundation to base my use of such a term on,,,even if the word itself is not exactly found in the text...

i dont need to make anything up myself.

I dont need to hide the fact that only I use this word to describe god...






I have a lot of support for all i say about God

unlike some people I could name.... :)

[alanmolstad]

Not until after 300 A.D. ( McGrath, Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.324). There is more time between the...



(dont suppose you remember what you posted after that? , I kinda was clearing a post from a few months ago and my computer sorta froze and got the wrong one deleted)

[BigJulie]

Not until after 300 A.D. ( McGrath, Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.324). There is more time between the...



(dont suppose you remember what you posted after that? , I kinda was clearing a post from a few months ago and my computer sorta froze and got the wrong one deleted)

I am not sure how you erased my post. Are you a moderator here?

I will go back to your old post.

[BigJulie]

You can find the word "Trinity" as used in the context of the Christian God in Christian church historyNot until after 300 A.D. ( McGrath, Alister E. Christian Theology: An Introduction Blackwell, Oxford (2001) p.324). There is more time between the idea of trinity and Christ then there is between us and the cons***ution. Let's see, 200 years later, judges have deemed abortion a right as well as gay marriage. Time does make a difference.


Any other point you make after this is a mute point.






Thus when I use the term "Trinity:" you know its not just my own little "Magic word", rather you know Im using a term that is well known and commonly used in the same way by the entire christian church ...and that im not just some type of wing-nut, making up stuff to fit my ideas.


So you see, there is a big difference.

Yes, I agree, there is a huge difference. The term Father to describe God is used repeated in the Bible, the word trinity, not even once.


I have heard the argument that we should be like the Bereans and search the scriptures so we are not swayed from the truth. The scriptures teach of our Father, but it does NOT teach of the trinity.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post You can find the word "Trinity" as used in the context of the Christian God in Christian church history




They got their lucky word that they hang their whole theology on but it does not actually appear in the text...


once again,,,you fail to list a single verse in the whole Bible than makes the same use of a term you pile your whole theology on top of...


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post I think if you were to read again what I have said, you might see that I have asked for any supports at all?...(in other words, pay better attention)

Is the word found in the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

I am not sure how you erased my post. Are you a moderator here?

.....
yes... I am .listed as the super mod....but I can't fly or have a cape.

and the website or my computer (Im never really sure?)had locked-up again, so I tried to open a few other windows to try to get things to "flush" and run faster again, but that did not work....that did not work at all.
I ended up with a bunch of commands stacked up and then everything kinda got mixed up....

But if you have re-posted your comment then we are back to normal . :)

[Apologette]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Oh, how about the cult's teaching that Christians are worshiping Satan? How about Polygamy is needed to exaltation to godhood (D&C 132). How about that one needs to follow a Pedophile like Joseph Smith and get his okay for the celestial kingdom. And other disgusting and evil stuff too numerous to mention.

And how about this: all Mormon works are filthy menstrual rags according to the Hebrew in Isaiah - because they spring from a denial of Christ.

see: https://claudemariottini.com/2012/02/28/sugarcoating-the-bible/

[dberrie2000]

[B] Oh, how about the cult's teaching that Christians are worshiping Satan? How about Polygamy is needed to exaltation to godhood (D&C 132).

And just where do we find that in the Biblical text?

The request was--what does one find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Please allow me to offer one that is found in the Biblical text:

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Apologette]

There is nothing biblical about Mormonism, it is antichrist.

[BigJulie]

There is nothing biblical about Mormonism, it is antichrist.

And there you have it. When we are asked to test the Bible text as with the Bereans, and we do and out of that show that "trinity" is not part of the Bible, but Father is---the end result is that we are just outright told we are the antichrist.

When the only argument that is left is to attack the messenger, then the attacker recognizes defeat in their ability to defend their position.

I have an idea Apologette, why not see if you can find opinions and writings outside of our scriptures and continue to use it to attack us--because you will never be able to defend your position using the Bible or the Book of Mormon or any of the other scriptures. You can't do it and so you won't. It is NOT possible.

[Apologette]

And there you have it. When we are asked to test the Bible text as with the Bereans, and we do and out of that show that "trinity" is not part of the Bible, but Father is---the end result is that we are just outright told we are the antichrist.

When the only argument that is left is to attack the messenger, then the attacker recognizes defeat in their ability to defend their position.

I have an idea Apologette, why not see if you can find opinions and writings outside of our scriptures and continue to use it to attack us--because you will never be able to defend your position using the Bible or the Book of Mormon or any of the other scriptures. You can't do it and so you won't. It is NOT possible.

Sure, Mormons becoming gods and knowing secret handshakes is biblical, right? Sure, Monotheism is untrue, and there are billions of gods flitting around the universes, copulating to produce baby spirits. Frankly, I don't have to be a Berean to see that those teachings are not only anti-biblical but pagan as well.

Futhermore, how naive does one have to be not to see that the term "father" or "fathered" can be metaphorical? Did the Devil ave sex with a bunch of Devilettes and produce baby spirits - yet Jesus said his enemies were children of their father the Devil.

[Apologette]

And there you have it. When we are asked to test the Bible text as with the Bereans, and we do and out of that show that "trinity" is not part of the Bible, but Father is---the end result is that we are just outright told we are the antichrist.

When the only argument that is left is to attack the messenger, then the attacker recognizes defeat in their ability to defend their position.

I have an idea Apologette, why not see if you can find opinions and writings outside of our scriptures and continue to use it to attack us--because you will never be able to defend your position using the Bible or the Book of Mormon or any of the other scriptures. You can't do it and so you won't. It is NOT possible.

Bottom line Big Julie, do you think the God of Christians is Satan?

[BigJulie]

Bottom line Big Julie, do you think the God of Christians is Satan?

No. I do not. Please quote the scripture from the Bible, Book of Mormon, or D&C that makes you think so?

[Apologette]

No. I do not. Please quote the scripture from the Bible, Book of Mormon, or D&C that makes you think so?

So, you disagree with this article by a BYU professor that was printed in the official cult magazine, The Ensign?

[Apologette]

Could anyone here please supply us with what is found in the Biblical text--that is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

I am going to start the ball rolling with this scripture that defies faith alone theology--but aligns with LDS theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The term "Biblical Mormonism" is an oxymoron. It's like saying, "Biblical Islam."

[BigJulie]

So, you disagree with this article by a BYU professor that was printed in the official cult magazine, The Ensign?

Let me p**** what the BYU professor said and was published in the Ensign. I do not disagree with him, but you misunderstand him.

1.
"“Of historical and theological significance is the fact that in Paul’s prophecy the church structure survives." The church started by Christ survives.

2.
"But God is not at its head, making that church—following the appearance in it of Satan—no longer the church of God." The church left God. This can also be read about in Revelation. In other word, the leaders of the church turned away from God. This thinking is also confirmed by other great leaders such as Martin Luther and others who recognized that the church had left the teachings of Christ.

3.
"To say that Satan sits in the place of God in Christianity after the time of the Apostles is not to say that all that is in it is satanic." This statement recognizes the "church" and "Christianity" are two different things. While the church leaders were engaging in such things as indulgences and the worship of Mary, Christianity, or the belief in Christ survived as well as those who followed Christ.

4.
"Indeed, Latter-day Saints should rejoice—as the heavens undoubtedly do—at the great works of righteousness and faith, and the leavening influence on the world, of those whose lives are touched in any degree by Him whose gospel the Saints enjoy in its fulness." Latter-day Saints (Mormons) rejoice that the belief in Christ remained regardless of what was happening in the church at that time.

5.
"Still, ‘the power of God unto salvation’ (Rom. 1:16) is absent from all but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which the Lord himself has proclaimed to be ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth’ (D&C 1:30)." However, because the leadership of the church turned away from God, the power of God was not with the church as a whole. This can be read to mean the priesthood, or those who had authority to act in God's name.

6.
"Satan’s goal of hindering many of God’s children from returning to their Father’s glory is thus realized." Therefore, if people believe in Christ, but do not have leaders who are called of God, Satan has more power over the children of men. They know truth, but are dispersed to and fro from one religion to the next. Hence, we see many divisions in the "body" of Christ.

7.
"How appropriate, therefore, is Paul’s description of him sitting in the place of God in the church of the apostasía.” Kent P. Jackson, "Early Signs of Apostasy,” Ensign, Dec. 1984. In other words, when Paul used Greek term "apostatia" meaning apostasy when referring to the church, it was appropriate. the King James Version uses the term "a falling away".



So, no, I don't disagree with the professor. But I clearly understand that you did not understand what he wrote. I hope the above helps.

[dberrie2000]

The term "Biblical Mormonism" is an oxymoron. It's like saying, "Biblical Islam."[/B]

Then perhaps you would like to post for us what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Maybe I could start with this, as to faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Apologette--the faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT:

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[Christian]

berry,

you have been refuted SO MANY TIMES regarding your MIS-USES OF SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT that you are far PAST the point of looking stupid.

[BigJulie]

berry,

you have been refuted SO MANY TIMES regarding your MIS-USES OF SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT that you are far PAST the point of looking stupid.

Actually, he has stated that this is ALWAYS the remark of the poster who cannot defend their beliefs using the scriptures.

[dberrie2000]

Then perhaps you would like to post for us what you find in the Biblical text--which is not found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Maybe I could start with this, as to faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Apologette--the faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT:

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.


Originally Posted by Christian View Postberry,

you have been refuted SO MANY TIMES regarding your MIS-USES OF SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT that you are far PAST the point of looking stupid.


Actually, he has stated that this is ALWAYS the remark of the poster who cannot defend their beliefs using the scriptures.

And it seems to still be the retort of those whose theology is violated by the Biblical scriptures:

2 John 9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.