What is the 'gospel' of the LDS church? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dberrie2000

10-17-2016, 04:54 AM

Is it this?
Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

Notice there is NOTHING of 'ordinances,' 'being exalted to godhood' or anything of the kind in there?

In the LDS church--all scriptures are inclusive of their belief:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Berean

01-11-2017, 11:27 AM

dberrie2000

02-07-2017, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post In the LDS church--all scriptures are inclusive of their belief:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Nonsense. What about this?

D&C 76
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

What about it?

Again--all the scriptures are integral one to another.

IOW--when we find the term "faith" in the scriptures--repentance, water baptism, belief, trust, enduring to the end, service, love for God and man, etc--are all integral components to faith in Christ.

The same is true for other terms used in the English language, for example:

Term: Car

Integral components: engine, transmission, doors, seats, wheels, etc.

Term: House

Integral components: Roof, foundation, doors, windows, walls, etc.

Christian

02-08-2017, 10:47 AM

What about it?

Again--all the scriptures are integral one to another.

IOW--when we find the term "faith" in the scriptures--repentance, water baptism, belief, trust, enduring to the end, service, love for God and man, etc--are all integral components to faith in Christ.

The same is true for other terms used in the English language, for example:

Term: Car

Integral components: engine, transmission, doors, seats, wheels, etc.

Term: House

Integral components: Roof, foundation, doors, windows, walls, etc.

So you think FAITH is 'only part' of what is required for salvation (having your sins forgiven), is that it? YOU GOTTA do a bunch of 'other stuff' first. . .?

dberrie2000

02-08-2017, 04:39 PM

So you think FAITH is 'only part' of what is required for salvation (having your sins forgiven), is that it?

I believe just what the scriptures bear testimony to--faith without works is dead:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [COLOR="#FF0000"]not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

YOU GOTTA do a bunch of 'other stuff' first. . .?

You might want to consider Paul's long list:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

DrDavidT

02-19-2017, 06:54 PM

there is no gospel of the mormon religious belief. they rely upon pressure and bullying to win converts

dberrie2000

02-20-2017, 04:45 AM

there is no gospel of the mormon religious belief. they rely upon pressure and bullying to win converts

Hi David:

I noticed you do not usually engage the scriptures, nor the points of concern--why?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

David--how do you fit those scriptures into faith alone theology? It fits the LDS doctrines just fine.

DrDavidT

02-20-2017, 06:42 PM

I don't because you misuse the scriptures and do not understand them

DrDavidT

02-20-2017, 06:43 PM

dberrie2000

02-20-2017, 08:06 PM

cultic people take what is true, or rather a portion of what is true, and misapply it to their own ideas then claim to be following the Bible. They are not but merely use bits and pieces of the truth to trap unwary people and unknowledgable believers into their web of lies and deceit.

Could you explain for us what it is about the Biblical NT witness you believe is bits and pieces of the truth used to trap unwary people?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The question was--how do you fit those scriptures into faith alone theology? It fits LDS theology fine.

DrDavidT

02-21-2017, 05:41 PM

anyone can cherry pick p***ages to support their cultic ideology. where are the p***ages that say lucifer is the brother of jesus? where are the p***ages that state that there was already a universe and matter in place before this solar system and planet was formed? where are the p***ages of scripture that say coffee, tea, soft drinks are banned for a believer? where are the scriptures that say you must wear magic underwear or keep a 2 year food supply? where are the scriptures that say god was human and spawned millions of spiritual babies?

dberrie2000

02-22-2017, 06:49 AM

anyone can cherry pick p***ages to support their cultic ideology.

Hi David:

Anyone can accuse one of "cherry picking" whenever scriptures are posted which defy their theology.

Care to engage the posted scriptures?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

hogan60

03-01-2017, 05:32 AM

In the LDS church--all scriptures are inclusive of their belief:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 4:4--King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew wrote about the earthly ministry of Christ. This was OT. The NT didn't come in until the cross. Of course Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments. They were still under the law. In the NT Christ said there's 2 commandments: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

As for Peter, he preached the same thing as John the baptist: repent and be baptized. The kingdom was at hand, it was in their midst because Jesus Christ was there and could have ushered in the kingdom and ruled from Jerusalem if the Jews had believed He was their King/Messiah. Peter never taught what Paul did: the message of the cross, Christ's blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Peter said Christ was the Messiah and that the Jews had killed him. Repent and be baptized. That was for the Nation of Israel. That's why Peter says Paul's message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel.

hogan60

03-01-2017, 05:38 AM

Hi David:

Anyone can accuse one of "cherry picking" whenever scriptures are posted which defy their theology.

Care to engage the posted scriptures?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

This does not refer to the 10 Commandments as they were given to the nation of Israel, but to keeping the commandments of Jesus, which are to love one another and believe on Him alone for our salvation.

dberrie2000

03-01-2017, 05:48 AM

Matthew wrote about the earthly ministry of Christ. This was OT. The NT didn't come in until the cross. Of course Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments. They were still under the law. In the NT Christ said there's 2 commandments: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Hi Hogan--thanks for the exchange:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation above--without obeying the ten commandments?

As for Peter, he preached the same thing as John the baptist: repent and be baptized.

And more yet--for the remission of sins. God's salvational grace for our obedience:

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How do you collate that with faith alone theology?

The kingdom was at hand, it was in their midst because Jesus Christ was there and could have ushered in the kingdom and ruled from Jerusalem if the Jews had believed He was their King/Messiah. Peter never taught what Paul did: the message of the cross, Christ's blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Peter said Christ was the Messiah and that the Jews had killed him. Repent and be baptized. That was for the Nation of Israel. That's why Peter says Paul's message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel.

Peter taught the message of the cross:

1 Peter 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And the message was to obey the gospel:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

hogan60

03-01-2017, 06:21 AM

Hi Hogan--thanks for the exchange:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Could you explain for us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation above--without obeying the ten commandments?

And more yet--for the remission of sins. God's salvational grace for our obedience:

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How do you collate that with faith alone theology?

Peter taught the message of the cross:

1 Peter 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And the message was to obey the gospel:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Peter is mostly quoting Isaiah in Chapter 53. Who did Isaiah write to? Jews. Salvation for the Jew as taught by Peter and the apostles was believing that Jesus was the Promised Messiah, the Son of the living God. But never, does Peter require their believing on the cross, Christ's death, burial and resurrection for their salvation. Their salvation was believing that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ.

As for Gal 5:19-21, Paul is not referring to the 10 commandments. He's talking about our old Adamic nature, the lifestyle of unbelievers.Then in verses 23 and 24 Paul says the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

hogan60

03-01-2017, 06:54 AM

DrDavidT

03-01-2017, 06:34 PM

DrDavidT

03-01-2017, 06:37 PM

This does not refer to the 10 Commandments as they were given to the nation of Israel, but to keeping the commandments of Jesus, which are to love one another and believe on Him alone for our salvation.

Now I wonder what kind of Christ you are trying to save people to.

The ten commandments apply to everyone as do most OT laws. I was doing a study on the difference between OT laws and NT commands and I have found that Christ taught the exact same things as God did in the OT. Tattoos are still forbidden as is wearing the opposite sex clothes and so on.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 04:34 AM

As for Gal 5:19-21, Paul is not referring to the 10 commandments.

Hi Hogan:

Again--could you explain to us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation found in Galatians 5:19-21--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

hogan60

03-02-2017, 08:45 AM

Hi Hogan:

Again--could you explain to us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation found in Galatians 5:19-21--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you explain why you believe the 10 commandments apply to us today when it was only given to the nation of Israel? Are you Jewish? Do you want to be under law? Paul said anyone who puts themselves under law keeping is cursed!

dberrie, I hope we're not going to keep going around the same mountain. I have answered and answered. I realize you defend Mormonism, but you really should defend nothing but the God-breathed Holy Scriptures. Jesus said: "Thy word is Truth." You adhere to a works and obedience theology, not one of grace and faith alone in the atoning work of Christ at the cross. This is why you pick out those verses that have the word, 'work' or' obedience' in them.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Hogan:

Again--could you explain to us how one could avoid Paul's condemnation found in Galatians 5:19-21--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Can you explain why you believe the 10 commandments apply to us today when it was only given to the nation of Israel? Are you Jewish?

All who have faith in Christ are adopted into the House of Israel, and become the seed of Abraham:

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Do you want to be under law?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

hogan60

03-02-2017, 09:08 AM

All who have faith in Christ are adopted into the House of Israel, and become the seed of Abraham:

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

is your faith in Christ? Are you sure? or is it in after all you can do? dberrie I went over much of this in previous posts. Quoting verses back and forth doesn't work here because you merely repeat the teachings of mormonism which is faith plus works, plus obedience, plus 10 commandments, plus church rules, ordinances.

hogan60

03-02-2017, 09:10 AM

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAll who have faith in Christ are adopted into the House of Israel, and become the seed of Abraham:

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

is your faith in Christ? Are you sure? or is it in after all you can do?

Could you explain for us what the difference is in enduring to the end--after all we can do?

Matthew 10:22--King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

dberrie I went over much of this in previous posts. Quoting verses back and forth doesn't work here because you merely repeat the teachings of mormonism ...

I'm glad you see the Biblical scriptures above as the "teachings of mormonism"--you are correct--they match the LDS gospel well.

The question is--how do you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures?

Christian

03-02-2017, 10:43 AM

hogan60

03-03-2017, 03:45 AM

dberrie, What exactly did Abraham do for God to declare him righteous (justified)? Abraham lived long before Moses. So there was no 10 Commandments or Mosaic laws. God credited to Abraham righteousness before he was circumcised. It was also before he tried to sacrifice Issac. There was certainly no church to join or church laws, commandments and ordinances to obey. So what was it that Abraham did? He believed God! That's all that was expected of the OT people: to believe in God and believe what God said. Abraham chose to leave his people who were idolaters and polytheistic They believed in the existence of gods. Abraham believed in the One True God and God then declared Abraham as righteous.

How does all this compare with mormonism and the myriad of rules, laws, commandments and ordinances?

Yes, God gave Abraham some commandments which were meant for him alone. What were those commands? To leave his country and people. Gen. 12:1 "Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee."

Another command was to sacrifice Issac. These are 2 examples of the commands that God gave to him and him alone. Abraham obeyed Him, but he was already saved (justified). If God speaks to you and tells you to do something then its wise to do it. But it has nothing to do with keeping the Commandments or laws.

DrDavidT

03-03-2017, 05:02 PM

Berry is an EXCELLENT EXAMPLE of that.
You have described the mormons to a T

Thank you. One thing that believers do not understand is how a con works.A con artist cannot get money from people if he only uses lies. his story falls apart quicker than anything. So to make a good con, the con artist must use bits and pieces of the truth in order to fool people. he won't fool everyone but enough unwary ones to be successful. evil works the same way with cults. it allows just enough truth to enter into the false words of the cults in order to make the false religion appealing and seem to be of the bible. that is why so many people get caught up in cults. they are convinced by the presence of the truth and ignore the lies.

dberrie2000

03-04-2017, 07:18 PM

dberrie, What exactly did Abraham do for God to declare him righteous (justified)? Abraham lived long before Moses. So there was no 10 Commandments or Mosaic laws.

What is your evidence Abraham did not have the ten commandments?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did Abraham Keep the Same Commandments God Gave to Moses?---https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/did-abraham-keep-the-same

Most religious teachers say that God's commands given through Moses applied only to ancient Israel and are not for us today.
But in drawing that conclusion, most of them overlook the full significance of what God said about Abraham’s obedience in Genesis 26:5, hundreds of years before God spoke to Moses and Israel at Mt. Sinai: “Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws” (NIV).

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Abraham obeyed the same foundational spiritual laws that were given later to Israel.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 05:08 AM

What is your evidence Abraham did not have the ten commandments?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Did Abraham Keep the Same Commandments God Gave to Moses?---https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/did-abraham-keep-the-same

Most religious teachers say that God's commands given through Moses applied only to ancient Israel and are not for us today.
But in drawing that conclusion, most of them overlook the full significance of what God said about Abraham’s obedience in Genesis 26:5, hundreds of years before God spoke to Moses and Israel at Mt. Sinai: “Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws” (NIV).

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Abraham obeyed the same foundational spiritual laws that were given later to Israel.

I am familiar with the link you gave. Its from the church of God faith. For every website that agrees with them, there are hundreds more that don't. This is why I never give links, but rather the Holy Bible as the only source for Truth.

God always has moral standards. Throughout the Bible God gave specific commands to people. God’s specific commandments for one person or people at one particular time are not always exactly the same as for others. We are not required to obey the commands God gave Adam. The commandment God gave Noah, to build an ark. The commandment he gave Abraham, to kill his son as a human sacrifice, (If Abraham obeyed the law of Moses, he would have been unfaithful, because he would have refused to sacrifice his son because 'thou shall not murder' is one of the 10 Commandments.)

What commands did God give to Abraham? To leave Ur in Gen.12. That's a commandment. He gave him the law of circumcision in Gen.21:4. Abraham obeyed God to circumcise his son as God commanded. These and other commands were commandments that Gen.26 is referring to.

dberrie, does that mean Christians today are to obey the law of circumcision?

Deut.5: 3 Moses is speaking: "The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us." No one had to obey this until their generation. This was hundreds of years after Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.

Gal 3:17 tells us the laws were only given to Israel for a distinct period of time, they were never made permanent. The law came 430 years after the covenant made with Abraham, and it continued to be in effect until the seed should come, who is Christ. The law came through Moses and grace and truth through Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:24-26 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:16 AM

I am familiar with the link you gave. Its from the church of God faith. For every website that agrees with them, there are hundreds more that don't. This is why I never give links, but rather the Holy Bible as the only source for Truth.

Hi Hogan:

Then let's stick with the Biblical text:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--God extending His salvation grace to and through Abraham because of his obedience to the laws, commandments, and statutes of God--is a violation of faith alone theology--regardless of what one believes they consisted of.

Very friendly to LDS theology.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 06:25 AM

Hi Hogan:

Then let's stick with the Biblical text:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--God extending His salvation grace to and through Abraham because of his obedience to the laws, commandments, and statutes of God--is a violation of faith alone theology--regardless of what one believes they consisted of.

Very friendly to LDS theology.

You didn't address anything I wrote. I did indeed stick with the Biblical text. Dberrie, do you even read my posts in its entirety?

hogan60

03-05-2017, 06:26 AM

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:41 AM

You didn't address anything I wrote. I did indeed stick with the Biblical text. Dberrie, do you even read my posts in its entirety?

Yes--but I stick with the point--which is--God extended His salvational grace to Abraham because of his obedience:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--if that is true, then faith alone theology is false--end of story, IMO.

That is the point I am attempting to point out. You might want to sidestep that, and one could easily see why.

The fact is--the faith alone share precious little with the Biblical text.

What is found in the Biblical text--is also found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go. Again--that is the theme I would like to stick with. The faith alone seem unwilling to discuss the scriptures themselves, electing rather--to talk about points which have nothing to do with the Biblical text, and it's doctrines.

Let's stick with the Biblical text--I believe we will get closer to God's truths in using that approach.

Care to address the previously posted scriptures?

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 06:47 AM

Yes--but I stick with the point--which is--God extended His salvational grace to Abraham because of his obedience:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hogan--if that is true, then faith alone theology is false--end of story, IMO.

That is the point I am attempting to point out. You might want to sidestep that, and one could easily see why.

The fact is--the faith alone share precious little with the Biblical text.

What is found in the Biblical text--is also found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go. Again--that is the theme I would like to stick with. The faith alone seem unwilling to discuss the scriptures themselves, electing rather--to talk about points which have nothing to do with the Biblical text, and it's doctrines.

Let's stick with the Biblical text--I believe we will get closer to God's truths in using that approach.

Care to address the previously posted scriptures?

Galatians 3:26-29--King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises were to none else other than the seed of Abraham. All come into the House of Israel through faith in Christ--there is neither Jew nor Gentile, in that respect.

How does that cancel out or cover up the fact Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life?

Again--you have not addressed the fact the commandments were present in the gospel taught to Abraham, 400 years prior to the Law:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As Paul stated--the Mosaic Law was ADDED because of transgressions:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Added to what?

Well--just what Abraham had, the gospel:

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's the reason when Christ fulfilled the Law--the commandments remained unto life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hogan--there was no eternal life under the Mosaic Law, so that could not apply to the Mosaic Law.

As for the lds theology and the Biblical text, dberrie you would have to provide first of all, irrefutable proof that the gospel was completely lost from the earth. I asked for that evidence in a previous post which you didn't address. If you cannot show concrete proof, then there's is no need for the lds church because Christ never allowed His gospel to be lost.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:54 AM

As for the lds theology and the Biblical text, dberrie you would have to provide first of all, irrefutable proof that the gospel was completely lost from the earth. I asked for that evidence in a previous post which you didn't address. If you cannot show concrete proof, then there's is no need for the lds church because Christ never allowed His gospel to be lost.

Hi Hogan--if you would like to discuss that--I would be happy to--please start a new thread, and I will come and answer your questions there.

I would like to know how you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures--care to address that?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 09:00 AM

Hi Hogan--if you would like to discuss that--I would be happy to--please start a new thread, and I will come and answer your questions there.

I would like to know how you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures--care to address that?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hi dberrie, I already responded to Matt 19.This was OT. Jesus and the young ruler were still under law. They were expected to obey the commandments. Christ fulfilled all of it at the cross. He gave us 2 commandments which sums them all: Love God and love your neighbor. Theoretically, there are two ways to look at concerning how to get to heaven. One way is to live a perfect life (obeying all of God’s laws perfectly everyday all the time, which is impossible.) The other way (the only way) is to trust the Saviour who came to save wicked sinners

Dberrie, we are under grace now. No more law, commandment keeping is required. It was never meant to be permanent. Yes, we should seek to please God with right living, but that's not how one gets saved. Only Jesus Christ saves.

You are still mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. You cannot mix law and grace.

alanmolstad

03-05-2017, 09:55 AM

Hi dberrie, I already responded to Matt 19..

a far better telling of the same story is found at Mark 10

there you will find that when the guy asks Jesus what must he 'do" to have eternal life?
The use of the word "do" points us to the understanding that the guy wanted to know what "work" he could perform that would count and earn himself salvation?
So he was clearly talking about a 'works salvation" concept, where you do some type of work and if you do it correctly it will guarantee your salvation.

Jesus points to the common understanding of the role of the Law in the life of a Jew....the thinking at the time was that if you do the law, keep it fully and never break it, that this leads to life.

Jesus points to this Law ...and without hesitation the man answers that he has always kept the law, even from when he was a little biy.

This points us to the idea that the man had that he had done all that he could do...he had been leading a life that had kept all the laws that Jesus pointed to.
Thus the hope the guy had that all his work at keeping the law had guaranteed himself the eternal life that everyone always taught the keeping the Law gave to man..

and then Jesus overturns the whole apple cart with the words..."One thing you lack..."

With these words Jesus makes moot the whole idea that keeping the law gave life
Jesus does not disagree with the man's statement about keeping the law...Jesus does not say that the Guy was wrong...or that the guy had failed to keep some hidden part of the law...

Rather Jesus points out that works dont save anyone....never did, and never could..

What Jesus says is in full agreement with what he said to the question about working the "works of God"?
Jesus answers at John 6:29 :"This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

The only work required is to "believe"...
Faith is all that matters with God...

This is why we learn that we are only saved by Grace though works?....NO!...we are only saved by Grace though FAITH!

This is why Jesus tells the man that even after living a life in full compliance with the Law, you still are not saved....for works dont save, faith is what Grace works though not works.

and Jesus then tells the man to "follow me" and this is therefore the only path we walk to receive salvation.

Its not a path of keeping laws, or doing works...its a path we walk in faith!

and this is why the Bible tells us "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

So the person that does not do works but has only trusted God, their FAITH is all that counts!!!!!!!!!!

hogan60

03-05-2017, 10:13 AM

a far better telling of the same story is found at Mark 10

there you will find that when the guy asks Jesus what must he 'do" to have eternal life?
The use of the word "do" points us to the understanding that the guy wanted to know what "work" he could perform that would count and earn himself salvation?
So he was clearly talking about a 'works salvation" concept, where you do some type of work and if you do it correctly it will guarantee your salvation.

Jesus points to the common understanding of the role of the Law in the life of a Jew....the thinking at the time was that if you do the law, keep it fully and never break it, that this leads to life.

Jesus points to this Law ...and without hesitation the man answers that he has always kept the law, even from when he was a little biy.

This points us to the idea that the man had that he had done all that he could do...he had been leading a life that had kept all the laws that Jesus pointed to.
Thus the hope the guy had that all his work at keeping the law had guaranteed himself the eternal life that everyone always taught the keeping the Law gave to man..

and then Jesus overturns the whole apple cart with the words..."One thing you lack..."

With these words Jesus makes moot the whole idea that keeping the law gave life
Jesus does not disagree with the man's statement about keeping the law...Jesus does not say that the Guy was wrong...or that the guy had failed to keep some hidden part of the law...

Rather Jesus points out that works dont save anyone....never did, and never could..

What Jesus says is in full agreement with what he said to the question about working the "works of God"?
Jesus answers at John 6:29 :"This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

The only work required is to "believe"...
Faith is all that matters with God...

This is why we learn that we are only saved by Grace though works?....NO!...we are only saved by Grace though FAITH!

This is why Jesus tells the man that even after living a life in full compliance with the Law, you still are not saved....for works dont save, faith is what Grace works though not works.

and Jesus then tells the man to "follow me" and this is therefore the only path we walk to receive salvation.

Its not a path of keeping laws, or doing works...its a path we walk in faith!

Alan, I could not have said it any better myself. Great post!

alanmolstad

03-05-2017, 10:16 AM

but someone might say, (insert child's whinny voice here) "But Alan faith without works is dead!"

ahh, yet the answer to that from the Bible is that Faith is thee only work that counts!!!!!

alanmolstad

03-05-2017, 10:22 AM

Alan, I could not have said it any better myself. Great post!

Mormonism is not really my field of study and outreach...
But back in my Bible School days I had to go over this same Bible story so I remembered a few things I have learned.

its a common story to study in a Bible study cl*** as the same story is recorded in several different places and so you can draw out more and more meanings from the conversation Jesus has.
It also is a story that connects well with other conversations on the same topic Jesus had with others...

alanmolstad

03-05-2017, 10:28 AM

for a very good example of what im talking about, here you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M&list=PL701D8A67651291FF&index=18

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Hogan--if you would like to discuss that--I would be happy to--please start a new thread, and I will come and answer your questions there.

I would like to know how you fit faith alone theology into the above scriptures--care to address that?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Hi dberrie, I already responded to Matt 19.This was OT.

Hi Hogan:

Matthew is found in the Biblical NT. Jesus taught things pertaining to the NT covenant--even if they were under the Law. Jesus Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--something the OT law could not bring. As Paul stated--if the OT was capable of eternal life--then the NT covenant would not be necessary.

In my Jesus and the young ruler were still under law. They were expected to obey the commandments.

How is that any different than the NT expectations?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 12:19 PM

Hi Hogan:

Matthew is found in the Biblical NT. Jesus taught things pertaining to the NT covenant--even if they were under the Law. Jesus Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--something the OT law could not bring. As Paul stated--if the OT was capable of eternal life--then the NT covenant would not be necessary.

How is that any different than the NT expectations?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Yes, Matthew is in the Biblical NT. But Matthew was looking back on the earthy ministry of Jesus. He was recounting the 3 years he and the other disciples spent with Jesus. The New Testament gospel of grace did not begin until Christ went to the cross and shed His blood. What Jesus taught was for the nation of Israel. He never taught Gentiles. Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of Israel. There was no gospel of grace until Paul. Because the Jews continued to reject Christ as Messiah, God turned to the Gentiles and Paul was chosen to preach to them.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 12:22 PM

Yes, Matthew is in the Biblical NT. But Matthew was looking back on the earthy ministry of Jesus. He was recounting the 3 years he and the other disciples spent with Jesus. The New Testament gospel of grace did not begin until Christ went to the cross and shed His blood.

Hi Hogan:

Mark might beg to differ:

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 12:50 PM

Hi Hogan:

Mark might beg to differ:

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Yes, it was the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom of God. God would have given the Jews their King and kingdom if they all would have repented and believed in Christ as their Messiah. But they failed to do this. So God temporarily laid them aside and turned to the Gentiles. But the Apostles did not continue to bring this kingdom message. This was only done in the beginning when Jesus had offered himself to Israel as their king. The kingdom of God that was preached by Christ before his resurrection is not the Gospel they preached after he rose. The former refers to Christ's authority, or his rule on the earth; which is postponed until his second coming. Note, Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom.

Where do we see Mark preaching the death, burial and resurrection as the gospel? It was repent and be baptized, not Christ's shed blood for the forgiveness of sins.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 12:52 PM

Christian

03-05-2017, 04:04 PM

Hogan posted:

Yes, it was the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom of God. God would have given the Jews their King and kingdom if they all would have repented and believed in Christ as their Messiah. But they failed to do this.

John 6:65
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

So the Father never granted faith to them. Faith DOES come by hearing the Word of God. You CANNOT simply willy-nilly CHOOSE to come to Jesus. The FATHER HAS TO GRANT IT FIRST.

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
NKJV

Obviously God had not called or chosen them.

So God temporarily laid them aside and turned to the Gentiles.

All part of God's ORIGINAL PLAN.

God chose us CHRISTIANS before the beginning of the world

But the Apostles did not continue to bring this kingdom message. This was only done in the beginning when Jesus had offered himself to Israel as their king. The kingdom of God that was preached by Christ before his resurrection is not the Gospel they preached after he rose. The former refers to Christ's authority, or his rule on the earth; which is postponed until his second coming. Note, Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom.

FROM PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS:

1 Cor 15:1-8
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

AND EXACTLY WHERE IN THIS GOSPEL (THE GOOD NEWS) are your temples, ordinances, false promises of godhood, etc etc etc?

Where do we see Mark preaching the death, burial and resurrection as the gospel? It was repent and be baptized, not Christ's shed blood for the forgiveness of sins.

But again IT ALL DEPENDS ON HAVING FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST. Mark NEVER SAYS 'instead of' the death, burial, and resurrection. MARK NEVER DEFINES THE GOSPEL AT ALL, NEVER CALLING IT repent or be baptized. God does NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF

To the Non-believer that God has NOT chosen:
1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

For we who are CHRISTIANS:

Rom 4:5-8
...to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJ

YOUR WORKS, WHAT YOU DO does not save you. ONLY JESUS SAVES YOU, THROUGH FAITH IN HIM. Your repentance, baptism, temple work, ***hing, 'keeping ordinances' or inviting your bishop to dinner do NOTHING towards curry favor with God.

FAITH counts as righteousness with GOD. YOUR filthy deeds do nothing.

Christian

03-05-2017, 04:08 PM

In Gal 5:19-21 Paul is talking about unbelievers who live a sinful lifestyle. They cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Paul uses the word they, not us.

"they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." He wasn't referring to himself or believers.

Then in verses 22, 23 we see the flip side. the lifestyle of the Believer.

"22: " But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance.."

Even if believers sin, we have forgiveness through the shed blood of Christ

EXCELLENT POST. Verse 22 starts with 'BUT' which is a conjunction of CONTRASTING SOMETHING WITH WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.

We don't usually agree, but in this case we do.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by hogan60 View PostYes, Matthew is in the Biblical NT. But Matthew was looking back on the earthy ministry of Jesus. He was recounting the 3 years he and the other disciples spent with Jesus. The New Testament gospel of grace did not begin until Christ went to the cross and shed His blood.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Hogan:

Mark might beg to differ:

Mark 1:1-5--King James Version (KJV)
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Yes, it was the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom of God. God would have given the Jews their King and kingdom if they all would have repented and believed in Christ as their Messiah. But they failed to do this. So God temporarily laid them aside and turned to the Gentiles. But the Apostles did not continue to bring this kingdom message. This was only done in the beginning when Jesus had offered himself to Israel as their king. The kingdom of God that was preached by Christ before his resurrection is not the Gospel they preached after he rose. The former refers to Christ's authority, or his rule on the earth; which is postponed until his second coming. Note, Paul never taught the gospel of the kingdom.

Hi Hogan:

I have no idea what you are alluding to. Your statement was the gospel of grace did not begin until Christ went to the cross.

Mark 1 espoused the very beginning of the gospel--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

What about the remission of sins do you not consider God's grace?

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 04:45 PM

Your repentance, baptism, temple work, ***hing, 'keeping ordinances' or inviting your bishop to dinner do NOTHING towards curry favor with God.

So--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--is not God extending His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and do His work?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

IOW--what is it about the remission of sins which you don't believe is God's grace?

Christian

03-05-2017, 05:36 PM

So--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--is not God extending His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and do His work?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

IOW--what is it about the remission of sins which you don't believe is God's grace?

You mean the remission of sins WHICH I DO believe is God's Grace (PART OF IT, of course) FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST (the REAL ONE, not the fake 'spirit-brother-of-satan-jesus' of the mormon cult) is ALSO part of God's GRACE.

Perhaps you don't know the MEANING OF THE WORD, "GRACE." It refers to the UNMERITED FAVOR shown by God, not to wages 'earned by doing stuff.'

Your cult doesn't teach that, does it?

NO NON-CHRISTIAN IS EVER COMMANDED TO BE BAPTIZED BY GOD IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE.

IF you 'baptize' an atheist, you get, 'a wet atheist, nothing more. IF you get baptized for a dead person, you get. . .wet, nothing more.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--is not God extending His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and do His work?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

IOW--what is it about the remission of sins which you don't believe is God's grace?

You mean the remission of sins WHICH I DO believe is God's Grace ....

If that's so--then the above scripture has God extending His salvational grace of the remission of sins to them which obey Him, and do His work.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

It fits LDS theology well.

Mark 16:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

hogan60

03-06-2017, 03:13 AM

EXCELLENT POST. Verse 22 starts with 'BUT' which is a conjunction of CONTRASTING SOMETHING WITH WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.

We don't usually agree, but in this case we do.

unfortunately for the lds, they look for those verses that have the word "work" or "obey" in them in order to try to make a case for their works theology, while completely ignoring the whole chapter or the verses around them. They mix law with grace. When Jesus was telling people like the rich, young ruler, to keep the commandments, they were still under the law. Gal 3:13 tells us that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.

disciple

03-06-2017, 06:00 AM

So--repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--is not God extending His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and do His work?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

IOW--what is it about the remission of sins which you don't believe is God's grace?

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Eph. 2:10

Notice how carefully Paul puts works in the right place. You don't obtain anything from God by working for it. You never deserve anything but judgment at His hand. If He gave us what we deserve, we would all end up in hell. No, we receive His grace, His mercy, His love. But these result in good works. That is the point. They are designed to produce good works. Works are a display of God's ability not ours.

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 06:10 AM

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Eph. 2:10

Notice how carefully Paul puts works in the right place. You don't obtain anything from God by working for it.

Could you explain for us if you believe God extending His salvational grace of the remission of sins for those who obeyed Him--and did His work, in Acts2:38--is an example of obtaining "anything from God by working for it."?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--if we are created in Christ Jesus for good works--can one receive eternal life without performing the works God created us for?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

hogan60

03-06-2017, 07:25 AM

If that's so--then the above scripture has God extending His salvational grace of the remission of sins to them which obey Him, and do His work.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

It fits LDS theology well.

Mark 16:16--King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be ****ed.

dberrie, David in the Bible, lived under the law. How do the verses below fit into works and obedience as taught by mormons?

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:6-8)

disciple

03-06-2017, 08:00 AM

Could you explain for us if you believe God extending His salvational grace of the remission of sins for those who obeyed Him--and did His work, in Acts2:38--is an example of obtaining "anything from God by working for it."?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So--if we are created in Christ Jesus for good works--can one receive eternal life without performing the works God created us for?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hi DB,

Hope you are well. Salvation is a work of God, we don't decide we want to be saved, it is God who draws us, God who gives us a measure of faith to believe the gospel and God who gives us the grace to obey the command to believe and be saved. Do unsaved people wish to repent and be baptized? No. The works prepared for us only come after salvation, do unsaved people wish to do works for God or for themselves? Unsaved people are enemies of God, their hearts are turned away from God, they do not wish to cooperate with Him, to work for Him nor does repentance enter their minds for they are doing what is natural to man and see no need for a Savior.

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 08:58 AM

Hi DB,

Hope you are well. Salvation is a work of God, we don't decide we want to be saved, it is God who draws us, God who gives us a measure of faith to believe the gospel and God who gives us the grace to obey the command to believe and be saved. Do unsaved people wish to repent and be baptized? No. The works prepared for us only come after salvation,

Hi Disciple--good to hear from you:

Were those here saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

do unsaved people wish to do works for God or for themselves? Unsaved people are enemies of God, their hearts are turned away from God, they do not wish to cooperate with Him, to work for Him nor does repentance enter their minds for they are doing what is natural to man and see no need for a Savior.

Obviously, they see a need for repentance, else--they would not repent nor obey:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Were those of Acts10:35 accepted of the Lord before--or after-- they worked righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 09:08 AM

dberrie, David in the Bible, lived under the law. How do the verses below fit into works and obedience as taught by mormons?

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:6-8)

Hi Hogan:

The above scripture is a reference to the time when the gospel of grace would be given to man unto the remission of sins(not attainable under the Mosaic Law)---independent of works(rituals under the Mosaic Law).

When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the Law"--that was a reference to rituals under the Mosaic Law. When the other Biblical NT writers used the term "works"--that was a reference to obedience to the gospel.

Paul distinguished between the two:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If Paul was using the term "works" in Romans4:6-8 to denote obedience to the gospel--then could you explain for us why he testified those who did not obey the gospel would not enter into the Kingdom of God?

disciple

03-06-2017, 09:26 AM

Hi Disciple--good to hear from you:

Were those here saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Obviously, they see a need for repentance, else--they would not repent nor obey:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Were those of Acts10:35 accepted of the Lord before--or after-- they worked righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hi again DB,

If you look at the verses before and after Acts 2:38 you will see that it was God who worked on the hearts of those who were saved,
giving them the faith to believe the testimony Peter had presented. Just hearing the gospel is not enough, it is God who is responsible
for salvation. Not all were saved that day, just those drawn by God and given the grace and mercy to believe and be saved.
So to answer your question yes, they were saved first otherwise they would not care if their sins were forgiven, nor would they
see a need to repent.

"Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Acts 2:37

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Acts 2:40-41

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Disciple--good to hear from you:

Were those here saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Obviously, they see a need for repentance, else--they would not repent nor obey:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Were those of Acts10:35 accepted of the Lord before--or after-- they worked righteousness?

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hi again DB,

If you look at the verses before and after Acts 2:38 you will see that it was God who worked on the hearts of those who were saved,
giving them the faith to believe the testimony Peter had presented. Just hearing the gospel is not enough, it is God who is responsible
for salvation. Not all were saved that day, just those drawn by God and given the grace and mercy to believe and be saved.
So to answer your question yes, they were saved first otherwise they would not care if their sins were forgiven, nor would they
see a need to repent.

Hi Disciple:

Since the scriptures testify it's the Blood of Christ which is applied to the remission of sins--then your theology is that one is saved prior to the Blood of Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

disciple

03-06-2017, 10:45 AM

Hi Disciple:

Since the scriptures testify it's the Blood of Christ which is applied to the remission of sins--then your theology is that one is saved prior to the Blood of Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Hi DB,

If we are walking in the light as Christ is we are obviously saved. 1 John 1:9 also tells us if we confess our sins He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
These verses are talking about saved people, if an unsaved person says "God I'm sorry I just murdered my friend", is he cleansed from all unrighteousness?
No, only those in Christ are justified and declared righteous and continuously cleansed by His blood.

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Disciple:

Since the scriptures testify it's the Blood of Christ which is applied to the remission of sins--then your theology is that one is saved prior to the Blood of Christ?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Hi DB,

If we are walking in the light as Christ is we are obviously saved.

Hi Disciple:

But that only connects walking in the light with being saved, IE--walking in the light as the condition to receiving the Blood of Christ unto the remission of sins.

Your premise was that we are saved prior to the remission of sins--which eliminates the need for the Blood of Christ for salvation to occur.

These verses are talking about saved people,

I agree--but 1John1:7 is referring to those who walk in the light--as a condition to the Blood of Christ for the remission of sins.

Faith alone theology has one receiving salvation through a faith without works--including walking in the light for God's grace of His Blood.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 04:51 AM

Hi Hogan:

The above scripture is a reference to the time when the gospel of grace would be given to man unto the remission of sins(not attainable under the Mosaic Law)---independent of works(rituals under the Mosaic Law).

When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the Law"--that was a reference to rituals under the Mosaic Law. When the other Biblical NT writers used the term "works"--that was a reference to obedience to the gospel.

Paul distinguished between the two:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If Paul was using the term "works" in Romans4:6-8 to denote obedience to the gospel--then could you explain for us why he testified those who did not obey the gospel would not enter into the Kingdom of God?

dberrie, where did Paul ever teach exaltation? Isn't that a part of the lds gospel? Why do mormons believe in obedience for salvation? Is it more for exaltation? The hope of becoming gods someday? Wasn't that the first sin? Adam and Eve wanted to be like god knowing good and evil.

Romans 6:4-8 and Psalms 32, David talks about someone who had sins, who would have to be counted wicked if judged by works, but who had all their sins forgiven. David is talking about a person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 05:41 AM

dberrie, where did Paul ever teach exaltation? Isn't that a part of the lds gospel?

Jesus Christ taught those who who were faithful would be exalted:

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And exalted unto what?

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Why do mormons believe in obedience for salvation?

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is it more for exaltation?

Eternal Life and exaltation are synonymous terms.

The hope of becoming gods someday? Wasn't that the first sin? Adam and Eve wanted to be like god knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Romans 6:4-8 and Psalms 32, David talks about someone who had sins, who would have to be counted wicked if judged by works, but who had all their sins forgiven. David is talking about a person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

"Works"--as in works of the law(Mosaic Law)--true.

But not "works"--as in obedience to the gospel:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 3:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

disciple

03-07-2017, 06:07 AM

Hi Disciple:

But that only connects walking in the light with being saved, IE--walking in the light as the condition to receiving the Blood of Christ unto the remission of sins.

Your premise was that we are saved prior to the remission of sins--which eliminates the need for the Blood of Christ for salvation to occur.

I agree--but 1John1:7 is referring to those who walk in the light--as a condition to the Blood of Christ for the remission of sins.

Faith alone theology has one receiving salvation through a faith without works--including walking in the light for God's grace of His Blood.

Hey DB,

What works did the Philippian jailer do, or the Ethiopian eunuch, or the thief on the cross or the 3000 who received salvation in the account in Acts 2?

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:20 AM

Jesus Christ taught those who who were faithful would be exalted:

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And exalted unto what?

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal Life and exaltation are synonymous terms.

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"Works"--as in works of the law(Mosaic Law)--true.

But not "works"--as in obedience to the gospel:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 3:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hi dberrie, none of those verse you quoted have anything to do with men becoming gods. Please show me where Paul ever taught exaltation as taught by the mormon church. If you are working then you are trying to get God to do something for you. You are actually sayng that God owes you something. God doesn't owe us anything. We all deserve hell according to the Bible. No one is good or righteous apart from the work Christ did. We are all born in sin. We all need a savior. This is why Christ came.

The Holy Bible nowhere teaches that eternal life is the same as exaltation.That's the teaching of the lds church.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:21 AM

Jesus Christ taught those who who were faithful would be exalted:

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And exalted unto what?

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal Life and exaltation are synonymous terms.

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"Works"--as in works of the law(Mosaic Law)--true.

But not "works"--as in obedience to the gospel:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 3:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hi dberrie, none of those verses you quoted have anything to do with men becoming gods. Please show me where Paul ever taught exaltation as taught by the mormon church. If you are working then you are trying to get God to do something for you. You are actually sayng that God owes you something. God doesn't owe us anything. We all deserve hell according to the Bible. No one is good or righteous apart from the work Christ did. We are all born in sin. We all need a savior. This is why Christ came.

The Holy Bible nowhere teaches that eternal life is the same as exaltation.That's the teaching of the lds church.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:24 AM

Hey DB,

What works did the Philippian jailer do, or the Ethiopian eunuch, or the thief on the cross or the 3000 who received salvation in the account in Acts 2?

Hi Disciple:

As to Acts2--

Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Jesus Christ taught those who who were faithful would be exalted:

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And exalted unto what?

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal Life and exaltation are synonymous terms.

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"Works"--as in works of the law(Mosaic Law)--true.

But not "works"--as in obedience to the gospel:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 3:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Hi dberrie, none of those verses you quoted have anything to do with men becoming gods.

Hi Hogan:

The verses connect obedience and eternal life, and obedience and righteousness--which, if true--renders faith alone theology false--regardless of men becoming gods.

Please show me where Paul ever taught exaltation as taught by the mormon church.

Christ Himself taught exaltation--why is that not enough?

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

If you are working then you are trying to get God to do something for you.

Did God do something for those who repented and were baptized here?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Could you show us any example of God extending His grace unto life to anyone who refused to obey God, and His gospel?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

dberrie2000

03-11-2017, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Jesus Christ taught those who who were faithful would be exalted:

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And exalted unto what?

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal Life and exaltation are synonymous terms.

Genesis 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"Works"--as in works of the law(Mosaic Law)--true.

But not "works"--as in obedience to the gospel:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 3:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View PostHi dberrie, none of those verses you quoted have anything to do with men becoming gods.

Hi Hogan:

The verses connect obedience and eternal life, and obedience with righteousness--which, if true--renders faith alone theology false--regardless of men becoming gods.

Please show me where Paul ever taught exaltation as taught by the mormon church.

Christ Himself taught exaltation--why is that not enough?

Luke 18:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

If you are working then you are trying to get God to do something for you.

Did God do something for those who repented and were baptized here?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Could you show us any example of God extending His grace unto life to anyone who refused to obey God, and His gospel?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Anyone care to engage this concern?