Adam in the Garden

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThe Tree of Life changes you.
When you eat of it you are changed.
The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.

How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

[dberrie2000]

yes...thats what Im saying
We were created to live forever by eating the tree of life.

That was the way Adam was created.


Remember there is no point in God planting a tree of life that brings eternal life to mortal creatures, if man was created already with eternal life.

You cant lose eternal life...

(If you think you lost your eternal life, you never had it in the beginning because eternal life last forever.....(hence the word "Eternal) )

I'm not arguing eternal life--but immortality. All will inherit immortality through Christ's resurrection--but all will not inherit eternal life. They are two different things.

There isn't any evidence partaking of the tree couldn't maintain their immortality. It just isn't specifically explained in the scriptures.

One can go from immortality to mortality--and maybe even eternal life to mortality--as we see that in the case of Christ.

To focus on Adam and whether he had immortality or mortality before the Fall:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The Tree of Life changes you.

When you eat of it you are changed.

The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.

How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

I have started a new thread where we can focus your answer on that question--"Adam in the garden".

[alanmolstad]

that's a good one.....LOL






But,moving on...
Let me say this one more time-

If you "live forever" you don't die.

Eternal life means life everlasting....Life without end.


If you think you have "eternal life" but then later you lost this, you never had it from the start!... :)
Eternal life lasts forever...(hence the word "eternal")


The proof that Adam was created a normal human and mortal is the fact that God planted then tree of lifein the garden.
The tree of life is able to change a person and they then live forever...

As this tree was planted for the sake of Adam,this means that Adam had a need for it.

This proves 100% that Adam was created a mortal.

[dberrie2000]

that's a good one.....LOL

But,moving on...
Let me say this one more time-

If you "live forever" you don't die.

Eternal life means life everlasting....Life without end.


If you think you have "eternal life" but then later you lost this, you never had it from the start!... :)
Eternal life lasts forever...(hence the word "eternal")

So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

[alanmolstad]

QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

Remember the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully 100% God Almighty...AND....fully 100% human...

and as a man the Bible teaches that Jesus is just the same as you and I.

If the human body of Jesus was different in any way than Adam or different than you and I, then his death and resurrection could not be used in the Text as a guide to our own resurrections.

But the Bible does use the body of Christ as a guide to our own body resurrections.

The Bible is clear that Jesus is a "man"

The same term used to talk about Adam before he was even created...."Let us make "man"..."

So when Jesus was incarnate he was incarnate into this world in the flesh of a normal man....anything different would mean he was something other than a man...



So to review.
When Adam was created he had within his mortal body the ability and need to live forever by eating the Tree of Life.

When the God wrapped himself in the flesh of a human, he did so with the flesh of a normal mortal man.

At no point was the human flesh of Jesus eternal, everlasting, or could be said to have "lived forever" before the incarnation inside Mary and before the resurrection of Christ in the tomb.

If you "live forever", you dont ever die nor can you ever die.
(Hence the word "forever")


If you have flesh that has "eternal life" (as I will have one day)that flesh will live eternally ...

That is why its called "eternal life" and not "temporary life">




Now I was asked if it is true that it was the *** of the Tree of Life to offer mankind eternal life in the garden,what does that now for us ?

My answer is to point out that in the story of the resurrection of all the dead as told to us in the Book of Revelation, we see a return of the tree of Life.

So it seems that God did not just plant the tree of life in the garden ,and then had to give upon it's mission after all.

God's word tells us that God did not uproot the Tree of life.

Its still there in the garden....

In the end the Tree of Life will still do what it was created to do....

[dberrie2000]

So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

Remember the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully 100% God Almighty...AND....fully 100% human...

Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?

[alanmolstad]

Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?
The Bible tells us that Jesus was fullya man...he became a man inside his mothers womb.
The flesh that Jesus was born with was completely human in every way.

and thats what we are talking about here....the flesh of Adam...the flesh of jesus...the flesh of you and I too.

We all are completely human.
We all are created as mortal creatures.

Adam did not change and become mortal
Jesus did not change and become mortal
I did not change and become mortal

We all were mortal the moment we hit the road running!

This is why we can look to the life and resurrection of Christ as being a guide to our own death and resurrections.

If Jesus's body were in any way different than our own, then his resurrection can not be used to be a guide for our resurrections.

How do we know what Im saying is the truth?
By this - "...one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,"
"Let us make man ..."

Whatever man was when he was created (mortal), so too was Jesus.

[alanmolstad]

Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?

Yes...
And being 100% God Almighty we know within his Divine nature that he could not die...

and beng 100% human we know that the human body of Jesus did die.....

the human body of Jesus was mortal....

the Divine nature of God in Christ cant die.


this is like the question the JWs are always asking here - "Alan if Jesus was God as you say, and he died, who ran the universe?"

The answer is to remember that Jesus is fully human, and fully God.
Two totally different natures in the one person.
Thus the human body that Jesus was born with aged, grew old, and died.
Yet the Divine nature Jesus had cant grow old...cant age.... cant die...

[alanmolstad]

So the divine nature of Christ is eternal and that did not change.....not even a small little bit in the incarnation.

Yet Jesus was also born fully human...and as a fully human Jesus was born mortal just as we are,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?


Yes...
And being 100% God Almighty we know within his Divine nature that he could not die...

and beng 100% human we know that the human body of Jesus did die.....

the human body of Jesus was mortal....

the Divine nature of God in Christ cant die.


this is like the question the JWs are always asking here - "Alan if Jesus was God as you say, and he died, who ran the universe?"

The answer is to remember that Jesus is fully human, and fully God.
Two totally different natures in the one person.
Thus the human body that Jesus was born with aged, grew old, and died.
Yet the Divine nature Jesus had cant grow old...cant age.... cant die...

The question being--why didn't God possess eternal life before coming to earth? He was not yet man.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThe Tree of Life changes you.
When you eat of it you are changed.
The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.


How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

Bump for Alan

[alanmolstad]

Ive been bumped?

[alanmolstad]

This is my first bumping....I didn't know how to dress for it...

I ***ume there will be cake later?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThe Tree of Life changes you.
When you eat of it you are changed.

The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.


Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHow do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.


This is my first bumping....I didn't know how to dress for it...

Hi Alan:

Just show up--we will accept you as you are.

As for your answer?


I ***ume there will be cake later?

There seems to be more crow than cake in your non-answer.

Care to address the above posts?

[alanmolstad]

Care to address the above posts?


So Im posting away, and dealing with all the questions, when I get asked the same question I just answered a day or so ago???

So I did not understand why Im asked the same question when I took so long to write the best answer I had to that question...(I mean its not like I thought of a new answer in the last day or so)

But then I looked by accident at the ***le of the topic I was posting on..
"Adam in the Garden" ?????

Where did this topic come from?
I thought I was posting on a totally different topic that I started in a totally different section of the Walter Martin forum.

No wonder I keep getting asked the same question that I already gave the best answer I got for...


Be that asit may...
My best and really only answer is here -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?3889-Why-would-anyone-remain-in-the-mormon-church&p=170315#post170315

post number # 104

[alanmolstad]

and...because the forum is once again screwing up and seems to be stuck and not updating...I will try to copy/past that link's number 104 comment here and see if that works?

"yes...thats what Im saying
We were created to live forever by eating the tree of life.

That was the way Adam was created.


Remember there is no point in God planting a tree of life that brings eternal life to mortal creatures, if man was created already with eternal life.

You cant lose eternal life...

(If you think you lost your eternal life, you never had it in the beginning because eternal life last forever.....(hence the word "Eternal) )



Adam was a mortal creature, who was designed by his creator to live forever by eating the tree.

But because of the sin of Adam, God banned Adam from eating, then Adam was unchanged...thus Adam died.

The moment God kicked Adam out of the garden, man was condemned.

Adam was created mortal,and died mortal.
Dust we are, dust he returned to.

Adam was never anything other than just the dust if the earth.
Nothing about Adam's flesh was different in any way that any other creature.

And because of the results of Adam;s sin, we die....
This sin entered the world though Adam....and from the sin, death came to us all.



thats the answer to your question on 1 Corinthians 15:21 "

[alanmolstad]

The question being--why didn't God possess eternal life before coming to earth? He was not yet man.

Jesus has two completely different natures.

Jesus is God almighty...unchanging....he cant change and does not change,
Jesus is human....and mortal...and ages changes, and dies.

[dberrie2000]

Jesus has two completely different natures.

Jesus is God almighty...unchanging....he cant change and does not change,
Jesus is human....and mortal...and ages changes, and dies.

Alan--I am referring to Jesus Christ--before He became a man:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

What is your evidence God did not possess eternal life before His incarnation?

[alanmolstad]

Alan--I am referring to Jesus Christ--before He became a man:







Known as the WORD in John 1:1
The WORD is unchanging...eternal...the very perfect example eternal life, in that the Word is God Almighty...and God not only does not change,God CANT change.




questions?

[alanmolstad]

What is your evidence God did not possess eternal life before His incarnation?are my posts even showing up there?

To ask such a question of me kinda shows that Im either not using words you can understand, or you are not reading what im saying at all....

[alanmolstad]

thing is....
I was thinking about it Im growing concerned that you may not know what the Bible is teachings us about Jesus, so Im just going to toss out this post to tell you about Christ from a Christian point of view....

In case you have the wrong idea about what Im saying....here is what is the Teaching of Christ:


Jesus has 2 totally different natures.
Jesus is fully 100% God
because Jesus is God, his nature is unable to change in even the smallest way.
God never gets old...never learns anything new...never forgets anything.
God cant change.

Before Jesus took on to himself his 2nd nature,he was known as the WORD in John 1:1

But then in that same section of the book of John we learn that the "WORD became flesh"
This is talking about the addition of a 2nd nature to the WORD.
The nature of a normal human was now part of the story.

Human nature is subject to age,,,Jesus got older...Jesus died.

So the human nature of Jesus died....But not his divine nature.
Jesus never stopped being God.
Jesus never stopped being all that the nature of God Almighty is.
And God never dies...
God is eternal Life.

Yet Jesus died...
and was totally dead for 3days...

[dberrie2000]

Known as the WORD in John 1:1
The WORD is unchanging...eternal...

Well--if He is unchanging -then when did God obtain eternal life?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

Well--if He is unchanging -then when did God obtain eternal life?

Off hand I would say that if a person has a concept of God that has their god needing to obtain eternal life?....then I would say someone needs to back-that-school-bus-the -heck up....


God does not change....
(see http://biblehub.com/malachi/3-6.htm)

Everything created is subject to time,,,subject to age....and subject to death.

But He who created all can not change.
God does not change for God cant change.

[alanmolstad]

any questions on the two different natures of Jesus?

[dberrie2000]

Off hand I would say that if a person has a concept of God that has their god needing to obtain eternal life?....then I would say someone needs to back-that-school-bus-the -heck up....

You might want to consider that:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

no....
Jesus is both God and man.
In his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.

again, the fact is that Jesus has two natures..

What part of my answer do you not get?

[alanmolstad]

I want you to understand this about Jesus,,,
So if you have any questions please ask them.

Or if I have said something in a confusing manner, please ask me to say something differently.

[dberrie2000]

no....Jesus is both God and man.
In his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.

But my question--and your answer--was before Jesus' incarnation--when He was fully God--and before He became man:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

So--God did not possess eternal life until when?

[alanmolstad]

But my question--and your answer--was before Jesus' incarnation--when He was fully God--and before He became man:





So--God did not possess eternal life until when?



and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

How they do this no one knows?


Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

But the WORD became flesh...
Human flesh.

Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
This 2nd nature is mortal.
This human nature that Jesus has is just the same as you and Iare.
We age,Jesus aged.
We die, Jesus died.


So thats how it works.

The Divine nature never was lost or changed....
God is always everlasting and eternal,,,(or whatever words you have that describe God as unable to change)





So to review:
Jesus has 2 totally different natures in himself.
The 1st nature is Divine and eternal and unchanging.
The 2nd nature is mortal.

Jesus in his humanity was born ( so it had a clear beginning) and died and only then is raised in an everlasting body.
This is why we look to the resurrection of Christ to be like a guide for our own in the future..
This is because he is just as mortal and like us in every way...

Jesus in his divine nature is unchanging and is eternal.

[dberrie2000]

and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

How they do this no one knows?


Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

But the WORD became flesh...
Human flesh.

Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
This 2nd nature is mortal.

Again Alan--the question, and your answer--had nothing to do with mortality:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

There is no other answer that I have, or know of.

I believe my answer is very close to the teaching I received by listing to Walter Martin...
At this point I guess I could quote some source that perhaps you might catch better than my own words...But that sounds like a lot of work...

I truly believe I gave you the answer...
and I think my answer is the only correct answer...
But there are many other ways of describing what Im saying...

[alanmolstad]

and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

How they do this no one knows?


Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

But the WORD became flesh...
Human flesh.

Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
This 2nd nature is mortal.
This human nature that Jesus has is just the same as you and Iare.
We age,Jesus aged.
We die, Jesus died.


So thats how it works.

The Divine nature never was lost or changed....
God is always everlasting and eternal,,,(or whatever words you have that describe God as unable to change)





So to review:
Jesus has 2 totally different natures in himself.
The 1st nature is Divine and eternal and unchanging.
The 2nd nature is mortal.

Jesus in his humanity was born ( so it had a clear beginning) and died and only then is raised in an everlasting body.
This is why we look to the resurrection of Christ to be like a guide for our own in the future..
This is because he is just as mortal and like us in every way...

Jesus in his divine nature is unchanging and is eternal.


I honestly believe I actually deal a lot with the question of the mortality of Jesus in his human nature...

[dberrie2000]

I honestly believe I actually deal a lot with the question of the mortality of Jesus in his human nature...

I agree--you did. But I consider it a diversion, as my point was not about the human nature--as the question and answer show:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the pre-incarnate state--when did God obtain it?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4lPIehyj8A




I think you need a little break to be able to take a fresh look at things...

[alanmolstad]

If there is a line I have written you would like to to have a 2nd look at to see if it's correct?...just let me know...

[alanmolstad]

Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the pre-incarnate state--when did God obtain it?


Lets go slow over my answer to see at one point I lose my audience?....


Jesus has 2 ....TOTALLY DIFFERENT natures.
questions?

The Divine nature and the human nature
Questions?

The Divine nature of Jesus is always unchanged...for God can not change.
God does not age...God does not die.
God is eternal.
The Divine nature of Christ is always eternal and everlasting and always, always, always alive .
Questions?

The human nature of Jesus was created in the womb of Mary.
The human nature of Jesus was the same as our own nature.
So Jesus was able to age and die as a typical human.
Questions?

These two totally different natures are always present in Jesus.
They do this in an unknown manner.
So this allows Jesus to be fully God, (and therefore eternal and living forever)
and fully human (and therefore mortal)at the same time.
Questions?

The divine nature of Christ did not become mortal.
But the mortal nature of Christ became eternal in the resurrection....as well all Christians.
Questions?








There, that should help me understand where I lose you....

[dberrie2000]

If there is a line I have written you would like to to have a 2nd look at to see if it's correct?...just let me know...

Alan--I've alreaqdy done that--but you keep circling behind your "two different natures" response. My question has nothing to do with the two different natures.

In fact--it centers in the arena before Christ's Incarnation:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?

[alanmolstad]

Alan--I've alreaqdy done that--but you keep circling behind your "two different natures" response. My question has nothing to do with the two different natures.

In fact--it centers in the arena before Christ's Incarnation:





My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?

Lets go slow over my answer to see at one point I lose my audience?....


Jesus has 2 ....TOTALLY DIFFERENT natures.
questions?

The Divine nature and the human nature
Questions?

The Divine nature of Jesus is always unchanged...for God can not change.
God does not age...God does not die.
God is eternal.
The Divine nature of Christ is always eternal and everlasting and always, always, always alive .
Questions?

The human nature of Jesus was created in the womb of Mary.
The human nature of Jesus was the same as our own nature.
So Jesus was able to age and die as a typical human.
Questions?

These two totally different natures are always present in Jesus.
They do this in an unknown manner.
So this allows Jesus to be fully God, (and therefore eternal and living forever)
and fully human (and therefore mortal)at the same time.
Questions?

The divine nature of Christ did not become mortal.
But the mortal nature of Christ became eternal in the resurrection....as well all Christians.
Questions?








There, that should help me understand where I lose you....

[alanmolstad]

.....when did God acquire eternal life? .....

You keep asking this like someone in this conversation has said that God had to acquire eternal life?

Why is that?

are you on meds or something I should know about?



As we have seen the Bible teaches that God never acquired eternal life,and I know that is not anything I have ever taught you here.

My guess is that you are confusing what the Bible teaches with what the Mormons teach...

Mormons are well known to have such ideas about their god...but Im really only talking about Bible teachings here, so lets not go into that dark hole...

[alanmolstad]

tell you what Im going to do.

I will quote your comment, and then add my response in another color...(Blue)and in a slightly bigger text so you can read along what you posted,and how I respond to things step by step.


Here we go!






My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life God always is eternal life!
Who said that God in his divine nature had to become eternal?...not me!...lets go on - in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? Again, God has been the same and God can not change...God is not able to stop being God...God is eternal life, thus God will always be in his divine nature eternal life...If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality Christ has two totally different natures, Jesus is both God and man. The humanity of Jesus suffered death, his divinity cant die The human nature of Jesus was mortal, the Divine nature of Jesus is eternal life.--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?



I hope that helps you see what Im talking about and how it address your questions about the nature of God's Son.

[dberrie2000]

I will quote your comment, and then add my response in another color...(Blue)and in a slightly bigger text so you can read along what you posted,and how I respond to things step by step.


Here we go!

I hope that helps you see what Im talking about and how it address your questions about the nature of God's Son.

Alan--it muddies the water even further:


God always is eternal life! Who said that God in his divine nature had to become eternal?...not me!...lets go on - in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? Again, God has been the same and God can not change...God is not able to stop being God...God is eternal life, thus God will always be in his divine nature eternal life...If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality Christ has two totally different natures, Jesus is both God and man. The humanity of Jesus suffered death, his divinity cant die The human nature of Jesus was mortal, the Divine nature of Jesus is eternal life.

Please do collate that with your previous statement:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

No.
What I want you to do is drop back to post number 36 and answer each time I ask you if you have any questions with a Y for yes and a N for no

[alanmolstad]

Here is what I "think"is your problem.

Every time I say that the mortal human natureof Christ was not born eternal but just the same mortal flesh as you and I you react by asking how can "God" not be eternal???

Every time I say that Jesus is both God and Man you react by asking then how can he not be eternal if he is God?

Thats the problem here, you have overlooked the two different natures that Jesus has.

So when I say that Jesus was mortal, aged and died you ask, how God can die?

When I say that God is eternal and cant change, cant die , you ask when did God become eternal?

[alanmolstad]

This is why I want you to drop back to my post #36 above and go over the statements I make about Jesus, and after each one decide for yourself if the statement I make is where you see a point that needs to be addressed???

Then we can see where the issue is at that you have a problem with?

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin used to teach that you have to first work on defining the terms before any conversation about Jesus gets anywhere.

Thats why I want you to drop back and go over my questions I ask you at post 36.

I want to know the moment you call something I have said into question.
I want to know where you think something does not add up?

The reason is that I think I should define in a lot more clear terms who Jesus is, and what is true about him, so that when I say "Jesus" you know who I have in my mind whan I say that name.

If you dont go over the post 36 questions, Im afraid that we are just spinning our wheels, because every time I say, "Jesus is God" you ask, "How could God die?"

And when I say "Jesus was born a normal mortal " you ask "If Jesus is God and was created mortal, when did God become eternal?"

and we go round and round....

[dberrie2000]

Here is what I "think"is your problem.

Every time I say that the mortal human natureof Christ was not born eternal but just the same mortal flesh as you and I you react by asking how can "God" not be eternal???

Every time I say that Jesus is both God and Man you react by asking then how can he not be eternal if he is God?

Thats the problem here, you have overlooked the two different natures that Jesus has.

As I have already stated--I'm not interested in what you believe about the two different natures of Jesus--and I have not engaged you on that subject.

What I am interested in--and find you divert into the two different natures of Jesus every time I ask you--is to collate your statements to your answer here:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--please don't go to the two different natures diversion. As you state--and I also--this is BEFORE the Incarnation. Before mortality, so it can't involve the two different natures of Christ.

Why do you believe God did not possess eternal life BEFORE He came to earth--in the flesh?

When Did God obtain eternal life--if He did not possess it prior to the Incarnation?

Again--I'm not interested in your two different natures--but God BEFORE He was Incarnated--and why He did not possess eternal life at that point--according to you:


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36

[alanmolstad]

Because you refused to do as requested, I will go the extra mile for you,yet again, and go over your post and add my own comments so as to show you who Jesus is, and how this all works


(This would have been a lot more easy had to just went and answered my questions at post 36)

I will add my own comments to your post, in again a slightly larger text and a different color



As I have already stated--I'm not interested in what you believe about the two different natures of Jesus--and I have not engaged you on that subject.

You can not discuss the person of Christ without dealing with the fact that he is both God and man ....
To forget he is God is to make an error
To forget he is but man is an error.

Only when you look at the person of Christ and keep in mind that he is both God and man will you understand any of what Im saying

What I am interested in--and find you divert into the two different natures of Jesus every time I ask you--is to collate your statements to your answer here:





Alan--please don't go to the two different natures diversion. As you state--and I also--this is BEFORE the Incarnation. Before mortality, so it can't involve the two different natures of Christ.

Why do you believe God did not possess eternal life BEFORE He came to earth--in the flesh?



Jesus has two natures.
Jesus has the eternal nature of God, and as such is unchanged, and eternal and always has been and will always be.
Jesus became human, and became mortal.
He did not stop being God, did not stop being eternal.
Known as the "WORD"in John 1:1 he becomes flesh and with this 2nd nature he is now mortal.
Jesus grew old, he aged, and he died.
So we have to keep always in mind that Jesus has two natures.


When Did God obtain eternal life--if He did not possess it prior to the Incarnation?

God cant change...
God cant get old
God cant die.



Again--I'm not interested in your two different natures--but God BEFORE He was Incarnated--and why He did not possess eternal life at that point--according to you



Because Jesus has two totally different natures, he is both God Almighty and human.
As God Jesus is timeless and eternal
as human Jesus is mortal with a human nature, he was born with a human body of flesh that was not eternal until after the resurrection.

Thats the answer to your question,

I believe it should handle all these types of questions that deal so much with the two natures of Christ.
:



I hope that makes things more clear as to who Jesus is.

[alanmolstad]

You might want to consider that:

If you were to actually quote me in context,you would see that Im addressing only the human nature of Christ...not his divine nature.

The human nature of flesh was not eternal before the resurrection following his death.

The Divine nature is always eternal.

God is always eternal.
But Jesus's body was not born eternal, but had to die and thus that proves Jesus's human nature was mortal.

[alanmolstad]

Here, now noticethe context:


QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

Remember the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully 100% God Almighty...AND....fully 100% human...

and as a man the Bible teaches that Jesus is just the same as you and I.

If the human body of Jesus was different in any way than Adam or different than you and I, then his death and resurrection could not be used in the Text as a guide to our own resurrections.

But the Bible does use the body of Christ as a guide to our own body resurrections.

The Bible is clear that Jesus is a "man"

The same term used to talk about Adam before he was even created...."Let us make "man"..."

So when Jesus was incarnate he was incarnate into this world in the flesh of a normal man....anything different would mean he was something other than a man...



So to review.
When Adam was created he had within his mortal body the ability and need to live forever by eating the Tree of Life.

When the God wrapped himself in the flesh of a human, he did so with the flesh of a normal mortal man.

At no point was the human flesh of Jesus eternal, everlasting, or could be said to have "lived forever" before the incarnation inside Mary and before the resurrection of Christ in the tomb.

If you "live forever", you dont ever die nor can you ever die.
(Hence the word "forever")


If you have flesh that has "eternal life" (as I will have one day)that flesh will live eternally ...

That is why its called "eternal life" and not "temporary life">




Now I was asked if it is true that it was the *** of the Tree of Life to offer mankind eternal life in the garden,what does that now for us ?

My answer is to point out that in the story of the resurrection of all the dead as told to us in the Book of Revelation, we see a return of the tree of Life.

So it seems that God did not just plant the tree of life in the garden ,and then had to give upon it's mission after all.

God's word tells us that God did not uproot the Tree of life.

Its still there in the garden....

In the end the Tree of Life will still do what it was created to do....


If you go back and look at what Im saying in the correct context you can see easy that Im just talking about the Human nature of Christ.
The human nature of Christ has a very clear beginning in the story.

[alanmolstad]

So NOW that you can SEE that when a christian talks about Jesus not being 'eternal" he is simply talking about the HUMAN nature of Christ.

This is because while the DIVINE nature of Jesus is eternal and had no beginning, the HUMAN nature of Christ very clearly in the text has a beginning!!!

We can also both see how when we look at the quotation you have lifted of mine in it's full context that I made it very clear, OVER AND OVER that I was only talking about the HUMAN nature of Christ, and I go also into great detail to show that the Divine nature of Christ is eternal and always was before the incarnation.



One of the hallmarks of a CULT is how they tend to always lift a quote out of it's context if they think they can use it in a way the author did not mean...

CULT - "Alan you said that Jesus was God, but then you said that he died, so you believe God died?"
ALAN - "No, God did not die"

C- "So Jesus is not God and you admit this!"
A - "Jesus is God"

C- "But you just said God did not die, so you believe Jesus if he is God did not die?"
A - "Jesus died"

C-"You said God cant die, now you say Jesus was God yet you also say he died? That is a clear contradiction!
A - "The human nature of Christ did die, but the divine nature of Christ cant die"

C- "There you just said another contradiction, you just said that Jesus could not die!"
A - "That is not what I said"

C - You dont believe Jesus was God and I can quote you, for you said "No, God did not die"and then you said "Jesus died"
A- "I think if you look at my quotes in their correct context you will see I was talking about the two very different natures that Jesus has. Jesus has a Divine nature and a Human nature.
The Divine nature is eternal, the human nature was born mortal so Jesus could die.

[dberrie2000]

So NOW that you can SEE that when a christian talks about Jesus not being 'eternal" he is simply talking about the HUMAN nature of Christ.

Then why did you apply it to God before He became mortal?


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

It like talking to an empty chair....

[alanmolstad]

Then why did you apply it to God before He became mortal?

Its like talking to an empty chair...


But I will push on and just tell you........once again....(not that it matters as you clearly dont give a rip what i say).........But I will just tell you that if you just want to know something about God?....just ask.

If you want me to talk about something I have written, just ask.

In this case, I have told you enough times how the person of Christ has two natures, Jesus being both Human and Divine.

Now when talking about the human nature of Jesus,,...if I were to ask you was Jesus eternal before the incarnation?.......what would you answer?



well....?

[alanmolstad]

the answer is "no"
The human nature of Jesus was not eternal before the resurrection.

[dberrie2000]

the answer is "no" The human nature of Jesus was not eternal before the resurrection.

My question had nothing to do with the resurrection. Nothing to do with human nature. Nothing to do with Jesus Christ's mortality.

It had something to do with your comments of God before His mortality:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Could you explain for us why God did not have eternal life before He became mortal?

[alanmolstad]

My question had nothing to do with the resurrection. Nothing to do with human nature. Nothing to do with Jesus Christ's mortality.

It had something to do with your comments of God before His mortality:





Could you explain for us why God did not have eternal life before He became mortal?
you can ask about whatever you want, but Im telling you that my answer will always be centered on the two different natures of Christ...

The human nature of Christ had a beginning, and that means that Jesus's humanity was not eternal...

[dberrie2000]

you can ask about whatever you want, but Im telling you that my answer will always be centered on the two different natures of Christ...

The human nature of Christ had a beginning,

That's right--but your statement was before that beginning:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Could you explain for us why God did not have eternal life before He became mortal?

I believe I understand your reluctance.

[alanmolstad]

That's right--but your statement was before that beginning:





Could you explain for us why God did not have eternal life before He became mortal?

I believe I understand your reluctance.

What I have said is that God is eternal...
(God has no ending, and no beginning)

When have I not always said that God was eternal?


On,and I believe it is the teaching of your Smith that God was not eternal not mine, soI think you got a bit screwed up by that fact :)



What I have said is that the humanity of Christ was born, in other words, the humanity of Christ was not created eternal, but was rather created very much mortal.

I believe the idea that the humanity of Christ was eternal before it was mortal is an idea of the CULTS,not of the Bible...




So nice try,but that dog dont hunt....LOL :)

[dberrie2000]

What I have said is that God is eternal...
(God has no ending, and no beginning)

When have I not always said that God was eternal?

You stated God did not possess eternal life before He became mortal:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Could you explain for us how God was eternal before He was mortal--and not possess eternal life?

Alan--that is nothing short of denial, IMO.

[alanmolstad]

You stated God did not possess eternal life before He became mortal:




.

I used the term "God" as you seem to be quoting?...(hint:you better drop back and read what i said)

[alanmolstad]

You stated God did not possess eternal life before He became mortal:




.

I used the term "God" as you seem to be quoting?...(hint:you better drop back and read what i said)


The man Jesus has two natures...

The WORD of John 1:1 has one nature.



get it now?

[alanmolstad]

So what we see yet again so clear here,is the typical manner a person trapped in the CULT of the Mormons acts when they run into a guy who knows the Bible.

They fall back of the standard way of misrepresenting what other people say in an effort to change the topic....LOL

But as you can see....Im not so ease to distract... :)



Once again for the slower students-
jesus has two natures.

Jesus is fully man, and as such was born mortal.
Jesus is fully divine and as such is eternal.


Why is that so hard to understand for the Mormon?...
ANSWER : they dont like it because thats not the idea that their Smith pushed.


In Mormonism their version of their god was mortal before he became eternal.

But, In the Bible God is always eternal.

[dberrie2000]

I used the term "God" as you seem to be quoting?...(hint:you better drop back and read what i said)

Are you now claiming Jesus Christ was not God before He became mortal?

[dberrie2000]

But, In the Bible God is always eternal.

Then you are admitting you made a false statement?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

So....when asked to post where I ever said that "God" was not eternal, you cant?....

Is that what we are seeing here?.....LOL...Ha..ha..ha..



I knew it!

And by failing to being ableto respond to my challenge to post a quote where I say that "God" was not eternal you are in-fact admitting that you just were faking this question the whole time!

Thats a typical Mormon response by the way.
You run into it here all the time when Mormons get challenged on a point and have zero means to meet that challenge with facts.

...when they dont have the facts on their side, Mormon just make up their own.
(It's what Smith did when he would try to convince a young girl - "God gave you to me as wife"....and if that dont work, "It's a way to ***ure your father and mother enter into heaven".....and if that dont work, "How about for$5 bucks?" )

[dberrie2000]

So....when asked to post where I ever said that "God" was not eternal, you cant?....

Then you don't believe Jesus Christ, before He became mortal-- was God?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

Then you don't believe Jesus Christ, before He became mortal-- was God?

(It's what Smith did when he would try to convince a young girl - "God gave you to me as wife"....and if that dont work, "It's a way to ***ure your father and mother enter into heaven".....and if that dont work, "How about for$5 bucks?" )


My question to you is...Was $5 bucks the going rate?

[alanmolstad]

Then you don't believe Jesus Christ, before He became mortal-- was God?
You know sometimes I get the feeling that deep down, you really dont know who Jesus is at all....


and I feel for you at that point....

[dberrie2000]

You know sometimes I get the feeling that deep down, you really dont know who Jesus is at all....

And that coming from one who makes this statement about God?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--you still have not answered for us--why didn't God possess eternal life before He became mortal?

[dberrie2000]

You know sometimes I get the feeling that deep down, you really dont know who Jesus is at all....

And that coming from one who makes this statement about God?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--you still have not answered for us--why didn't God possess eternal life before He became mortal?

[alanmolstad]

And that coming from one who makes this statement about God?



Alan--you still have not answered for us--why didn't God possess eternal life before He became mortal?

Did anyone say that "God" was not eternal?

Or is that just your idea?


Here once again is what I have said about how to understand -

CULT - "Alan you said that Jesus was God, but then you said that he died, so you believe God died?"
ALAN - "No, God did not die"

C- "So Jesus is not God and you admit this!"
A - "Jesus is God"

C- "But you just said God did not die, so you believe Jesus if he is God did not die?"
A - "Jesus died"

C-"You said God cant die, now you say Jesus was God yet you also say he died? That is a clear contradiction!
A - "The human nature of Christ did die, but the divine nature of Christ cant die"

C- "There you just said another contradiction, you just said that Jesus could not die!"
A - "That is not what I said"

C - You dont believe Jesus was God and I can quote you, for you said "No, God did not die"and then you said "Jesus died"
A- "I think if you look at my quotes in their correct context you will see I was talking about the two very different natures that Jesus has. Jesus has a Divine nature and a Human nature.
The Divine nature is eternal, the human nature was born mortal so Jesus could die.

[dberrie2000]

Did anyone say that "God" was not eternal?

So--you believe that Jesus Christ--before He became mortal--was not God?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ]ANSWER : No.[/B][/B]

So--now we have it you don't believe Jesus Christ had eternal life before mortality--AND you don't believe Jesus Christ was God before His mortality?

[alanmolstad]

So--you believe that Jesus Christ--before He became mortal--was not God?



So--now we have it you don't believe Jesus Christ had eternal life before mortality--AND you don't believe Jesus Christ was God before His mortality?
CULT - "Alan you said that Jesus was God, but then you said that he died, so you believe God died?"
ALAN - "No, God did not die"

C- "So Jesus is not God and you admit this!"
A - "Jesus is God"

C- "But you just said God did not die, so you believe Jesus if he is God did not die?"
A - "Jesus died"

C-"You said God cant die, now you say Jesus was God yet you also say he died? That is a clear contradiction!
A - "The human nature of Christ did die, but the divine nature of Christ cant die"

C- "There you just said another contradiction, you just said that Jesus could not die!"
A - "That is not what I said"

C - You dont believe Jesus was God and I can quote you, for you said "No, God did not die"and then you said "Jesus died"
A- "I think if you look at my quotes in their correct context you will see I was talking about the two very different natures that Jesus has. Jesus has a Divine nature and a Human nature.
The Divine nature is eternal, the human nature was born mortal so Jesus could die.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostSo--you believe that Jesus Christ--before He became mortal--was not God?


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?[B] ANSWER : No.

So--now we have it you don't believe Jesus Christ had eternal life before mortality--AND you don't believe Jesus Christ was God before His mortality?


CULT - "Alan you said that Jesus was God, but then you said that he died, so you believe God died?"

Says the one who pretends to preach respect for one another here.

Alan--you got burned--and this seems to me like little less than sour grapes.

[alanmolstad]

CULT - "Alan you said that Jesus was God, but then you said that he died, so you believe God died?"
ALAN - "No, God did not die"

C- "So Jesus is not God and you admit this!"
A - "Jesus is God"

C- "But you just said God did not die, so you believe Jesus if he is God did not die?"
A - "Jesus died"

C-"You said God cant die, now you say Jesus was God yet you also say he died? That is a clear contradiction!
A - "The human nature of Christ did die, but the divine nature of Christ cant die"

C- "There you just said another contradiction, you just said that Jesus could not die!"
A - "That is not what I said"

C - You dont believe Jesus was God and I can quote you, for you said "No, God did not die"and then you said "Jesus died"
A- "I think if you look at my quotes in their correct context you will see I was talking about the two very different natures that Jesus has. Jesus has a Divine nature and a Human nature.
The Divine nature is eternal, the human nature was born mortal so Jesus could die.


It's just so amazing how I seem to know what the CULTS will say before they do. .. :)

[dberrie2000]

It's just so amazing how I seem to know what the CULTS will say before they do. .. :)

Still waiting on your response:


Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Why didn't God possess eternal life before His mortality?

[alanmolstad]

see post # 50

[dberrie2000]

see post # 50

Peruse as one may--you have not explained why God did not possess eternal life BEFORE His mortality:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

see post #78

[dberrie2000]

see post #78

Post #78 won't explain why you don't believe God possessed eternal life before His immortality:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

CULT - "Alan you said that Jesus was God, but then you said that he died, so you believe God died?"
ALAN - "No, God did not die"

C- "So Jesus is not God and you admit this!"
A - "Jesus is God"

C- "But you just said God did not die, so you believe Jesus if he is God did not die?"
A - "Jesus died"

C-"You said God cant die, now you say Jesus was God yet you also say he died? That is a clear contradiction!
A - "The human nature of Christ did die, but the divine nature of Christ cant die"

C- "There you just said another contradiction, you just said that Jesus could not die!"
A - "That is not what I said"

C - You dont believe Jesus was God and I can quote you, for you said "No, God did not die"and then you said "Jesus died"
A- "I think if you look at my quotes in their correct context you will see I was talking about the two very different natures that Jesus has. Jesus has a Divine nature and a Human nature.
The Divine nature is eternal, the human nature was born mortal so Jesus could die.

[dberrie2000]

A- "I think if you look at my quotes in their correct context you will see I was talking about the two very different natures that Jesus has.

Why didn't Jesus Christ possess eternal life before He became mortal?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

Why didn't Jesus Christ possess eternal life before He became mortal?


The person in the Bible called Jesus Christ is fully God and Full man.
as Fully God,the WORD of John 1:1 had eternal life before the incarnation.
as fully human, the humanity of Jesus Christ did not exist before the incarnation.

So when speaking of his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life before the incarnation.
Just as when speaking of his nature as God, Jesus Christ had eternal life before the incarnation.


Its that simple....




This is why when I challenged you to find a quote where I said that "God" did not have eternal life you failed to find one...


This also is why my post number #82 above is so important and shows us the error you make in your questions.






This is the common error found in the minds of members of the CULTs like the JWs , who every time I say that "Jesus is God" they twist things around in their minds and think I have said, "Jesus is the Father" and so go on, and on, and on attempting to prove to me that Jesus is not the Father.....

and its why they get confused when I ask them to show me where I ever said that "Jesus is the father"?

They think that because I said that "Jesus is God" that Im actually saying that "Jesus is the father" and they know that to be impossible!

So whats the answer?
so.....the answer to this is......that they have to go back and look more closely at the context of what im saying, and see the truth is my words.



Just as here with your failing to understand the concept of how the human nature of Jesus can not have eternal life before the incarnation , and yet Jesus is also God that always has eternal life.......

What you fail to understand is that Jesus is fully human as well as fully God.

This means that when we are speaking only of his human nature that we can see how his human nature did not have eternal life before the incarnation...

This does not mean for a moment that the Divine nature of Jesus was mortal....this does not mean that God did not always have eternal life.

God always has eternal life.
The Divine nature of Christ cant die.

The human nature of Christ could die.....just as our own human nature can die and be in the grave.

[dberrie2000]

The person in the Bible called Jesus Christ is fully God and Full man.

Was Jesus Christ fully man before His mortality?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4--King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Why didn't Christ possess eternal life before mortality?

[alanmolstad]

Was Jesus Christ fully man before His mortality?

?

The WORD "became" flesh.

The WORD was not always flesh...the flesh of Jesus was his at the incarnation.


The WORD was made man...the WORD was not man before this....the Word was made man and being a human Jesus could then die as man's flesh is very much mortal.

[alanmolstad]

Why didn't Christ possess eternal life before mortality?

Jesus Christ has 2 totally different natures.
In his nature as a man, Jesus was born human, and humans do not have eternal life before they are born.

But the other nature Christ has at all times is the nature as the WORD,,,,,and the WORD is God Almighty.

So because the nature of Jesus is that he is God Almighty, this also means that he had eternal life before the incarnation.
So within the nature of his being God, Jesus did possess eternal life before the incarnation.

[alanmolstad]

and this is how and why Jesus could say that even before Abraham was born, "I am"

Jesus in his human nature was not around before Abraham, but because Jesus is also God, Jesus was before Abraham and is in fact, "timeless'

[dberrie2000]

Jesus Christ has 2 totally different natures.
In his nature as a man, Jesus was born human, and humans do not have eternal life before they are born.

But your claim is before Jesus was born:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His incarnation? What is your evidence of that?

[dberrie2000]

and this is how and why Jesus could say that even before Abraham was born, "I am"

Jesus in his human nature was not around before Abraham,

Then why do you continue to bring up the two natures of Christ whenever questioned about your statement BEFORE Jesus Christ's mortality?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

What is your evidence Jesus Christ did not possess eternal life before He became mortal?

[alanmolstad]

But your claim is before Jesus was born:



Why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His incarnation? What is your evidence of that?

Yes, I was speaking of the humanity of Christ...(but you already knew that.)

The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation.


The proof that then humanity of Christ was not in existence before the incarnation is found in the words at John 1:14, where it talks about the WORD "14 The Word became flesh"


There is your proof that the WORD was not always flesh, for it tells us that the WORD "became" flesh....

This is the moment that the person of Jesus became human .





So this does not mean that Jesus was not God
This does not mean that Jesus did not have eternal life.
For we know that Jesus is God, and God is eternal life and beyond time.



This is why I have never said as you claimed that "God" did not have eternal life.

But the teaching of the Bible and of the Christian church is that Jesus has two natures...

He is both eternal as God..
and was born mortal as man.

[alanmolstad]

Then why do you continue to bring up the two natures of Christ whenever questioned about your statement BEFORE Jesus Christ's mortality?


?In order to correctly answer your question I must point out that Jesus has 2 natures.

Jesus is fully God

Jesus is fully man.

When talking only about the human nature of Jesus we say that he did not have eternal life in his humanity iuntill after the resurrection>


and...

When talking about his Divine nature as God, the Lord Jesus had eternal life before the incarnation.



So are you asking me about his divine nature or his human nature?

[dberrie2000]

Yes, I was speaking of the humanity of Christ...(but you already knew that.)

The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation.

Alan--you are not making a lot of sense.

If the humanity did not exist before Christ's Incarnation--then you could not have been addressing the humanity of Christ:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His incarnation?

[alanmolstad]

Alan--you are not making a lot of sense.

If the humanity did not exist before Christ's Incarnation--then you could not have been addressing the humanity of Christ:





I believe if you check I am addressing the human nature of Christ.

I believe if you check any of my posts I do make it very clear when Im addressing the divine nature and when Im addressing the human nature of Christ,.

The Divine nature of Christ is everlasting and has eternal life
The human nature of Christ is something that the WORD "became" and was not around before the incarnation..,..and thus it was not from everlasting and did not have eternal life "until" after the resurrection.


Thats how this works....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostYes, I was speaking of the humanity of Christ...(but you already knew that.)

The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation.


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAlan--you are not making a lot of sense.

If the humanity did not exist before Christ's Incarnation--then you could not have been addressing the humanity of Christ:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.


I believe if you check I am addressing the human nature of Christ.

That only places you in double jeopardy:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation.

Again--your post:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

If the humanity did not exist before the incarnation--then you could not have been addressing the humanity of Christ in your above post.

So, again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His humanity?

[alanmolstad]

I think if you check I was addressing the humanity of Christ when I talk about Jesus not having eternal life before the resurrection...

just as when I talk about Jesus always having eternal life Im always talking about his divine nature...

Its that simple...

[dberrie2000]

I think if you check I was addressing the humanity of Christ when I talk about Jesus not having eternal life before the resurrection...

If you check--your testimony was before the humanity of Christ:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--there is one thing I think all are wise to remember--cyberspace does not forget.

You have yet to engage the question--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His mortality--as you testify to above?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation.

[alanmolstad]

why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His mortality--?

again if you ask me about the human nature of Jesus, you will find out that according to the Bible, the human body of Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.

If you check you will also see that I always am in agreement with this sound Bible teaching.




This is the facts...
The human nature of Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.
The Divine nature of Christ was always with eternal life...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Postwhy didn't Christ possess eternal life before His mortality--

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.


again if you ask me about the human nature of Jesus,

Please allow me to quote you:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation.

[alanmolstad]

I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36



a Bump.........

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36

As I have already stated--your post on the two natures of Christ(post36) has nothing to do with the point discussed, as you freely admitted:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation

My question surrounds around why you don't believe Christ possessed eternal life BEFORE His Humanity:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

So--God did not possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

[alanmolstad]

My question surrounds around why you don't believe Christ possessed eternal life BEFORE His Humanity:







Jesus has two totally different natures.
Jesus is both God and man.

The divine nature of Christ has eternal life at all times.
The human nature of Christ did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.


This why I have never said that "God did not have eternal life before the incarnation"....(remember how that fact came up?)

But the Bible tells us that the WORD "became" flesh.
The WORD was not always flesh.
The flesh that the WORD became did not have eternal life until the resurrection.
That is why when we are speaking of just his human nature we make sure people understand that Jesus did not have eternal life in his flesh until after the resurrection, yet at the very same time Jesus always had eternal life due to fact he is also fully God.




any questions?

[dberrie2000]

Jesus has two totally different natures.
Jesus is both God and man.

The divine nature of Christ has eternal life at all times.

Are you claiming Christ did not have a divine nature prior to His incarnation?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

Are you claiming Christ did not have a divine nature prior to His incarnation?
Jesus had (and has) divine nature at all times.
Eternal and everlasting life...

But the WORD became flesh, and this is where and when the WORD became a man, and had a human nature.
Before this the WORD did not have a human nature...

This means that when looking only at the human nature of Jesus we see that he did not have eternal life in his human nature until after the resurrection.
That is when the human nature of Christ first has eternal life, having been raised to eternal life from the dead.


any questions?

[dberrie2000]

Jesus had (and has) divine nature at all times.
Eternal and everlasting life...

Then how do you explain your testimony here?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

Then how do you explain your testimony here?


When we think of Jesus we always have to remember that Jesus is 2 natures in the one person.

jesus is both God and man.

As God, yes, Jesus always has eternal life and is timeless and everlasting.

As man, "No, Jesus did not have eternal life" until after he was raised from the dead.




Is that, really too hard for you to understand?
I could do some looking around for a Walter Martin video that is on the topic for you to watch if you like?

[dberrie2000]

When we think of Jesus we always have to remember that Jesus is 2 natures in the one person.

But you have already clarified that:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation

If your above testimony is true--how are you relating the humanity of Christ into your testimony here?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.


As man, "No, Jesus did not have eternal life" until after he was raised from the dead.

But your testimony above is in reference to before Jesus became a man. You testified Jesus's humanity did not exist before His Incarnation.

So--why are you resorting to the humanity of Jesus--when you testified Jesus' humanity did not exist before His Incarnation? If it didn't exist--then why are you running to that retort?

Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

[alanmolstad]

Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

Jesus did not possess eternal life in his humanity before his resurrection.

At that moment that he was raised to life out of the grave, he from then on had eternal life in his human nature.

[dberrie2000]

Jesus did not possess eternal life in his humanity before his resurrection.

But your testimony was Jesus did not have His humanity before His incarnation:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation

If that is so--then your point above about humanity is not applicable here:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

[alanmolstad]

But your testimony was Jesus did not have His humanity before His incarnation:




Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

[alanmolstad]

Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection.

[dberrie2000]

Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

Alan, IMO--that is a very confused statement, in light of your previous statement:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Could you explain for us how Jesus always had eternal life--and did not have it before he became mortal and died?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Jesus did not possess eternal life in his humanity before his resurrection.

How are you collating your statements together?

[alanmolstad]

Could you explain for us how Jesus always had eternal life--and did not have it before he became mortal and died?


?Yes....


Jesus has two totally different natures.

[dberrie2000]

Yes....Jesus has two totally different natures.

That's fine, Alan--but it does not tally up to your contradictory statements:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostYes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

[alanmolstad]

That's fine, Alan--but it does not tally up to your contradictory statements:Many times people see what they think must be a "contradiction" only to later learn that all they needed to do was look at things in their correct context to see how all things walk hand in hand with each other.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection.


Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

"Many times people see what they think must be a "contradiction" only to later learn that all they needed to do was look at things in their correct context to see how all things walk hand in hand with each other. "

[dberrie2000]

"Many times people see what they think must be a "contradiction" only to later learn that all they needed to do was look at things in their correct context to see how all things walk hand in hand with each other. "

Fair enough, Alan--we'll await your explanation on how you collate these statements:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

[alanmolstad]

Fair enough, Alan--we'll await your explanation on how you collate these statements:

In their context.


The truth is, because we are talking about a person with two totally different natures, many of the things we say about Christ when talking about his Divine nature will not be true about his human nature....and the other way around.


So this is why we can say that "Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection, yet a the same time understand that Jesus always had eternal life."

At first when a non-Christian reads such a sentence all they see is the clear contradictions with in it..>

"Alan how can you say that Jesus both had and did not have eternal life at the very same time?"
To the non-Christian it just seems crazy.


But if given time and the chance to understand the full context, then the Non-Christian can begin to understand and see things in a new and brighter light.


What we have to always keep in mind is that Jesus has two totally different natures...
This is why we can understand my statement above, and how it is all walking hand in hand.


Lets go over it and take time to look at the context of the words.

"Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection, yet a the same time understand that Jesus always had eternal life."


Jesus (The God/Man) did not have eternal life(When only talking about his human nature) before the resurrection, yet a the same time understand that Jesus always had eternal life (When talking about his Divine nature as God Almighty)."

[dberrie2000]

In their context.

Yes, Alan--in their context:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

[alanmolstad]

Yes, Alan--in their context:



Yes, a good Bible student will always want to look at all things in their correct context.

If I ever write something that you dont understand how it fits within the christian faith?...just ask.

[dberrie2000]

Yes, a good Bible student will always want to look at all things in their correct context.

If I ever write something that you dont understand how it fits within the christian faith?...just ask.

I did. How do you collate these contradictory statements together?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

[alanmolstad]

I did. How do you collate these contradictory statements together?


If you have trouble understanding the context of how every word I have said is totally correct ?...I might suggest you drop back and go over the stuff about Jesus I talked about in a posted comment we call Number #36

[dberrie2000]

If you have trouble understanding the context of how every word I have said is totally correct ?...

I believe most people would have a hard time reconciling these statements to one another:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

I have noticed you have not attempted to collate them either.

[Berean]

I believe most people would have a hard time reconciling these statements to one another:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

I have noticed you have not attempted to collate them either.

Let's first establish that LDS/Mormons are not saved, and therefore do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and therefore the ability to understand this doctrine. The Holy Spirit was given to "believers" only, who teaches us all things. (John 14:28).

Unfortunately, Mormons do not receive this Advocate, and therefore do not have the benefit of this intimate insight into the Gospel, and that's why you have such a difficult time understanding Christian doctrines.

It has already been explained that Jesus has two natures, and that should cause a rational person to easily understand what has been said. But allow me to put into laymen terms. Perhaps that will help.

God has chosen to manifest Himself in three Persons. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is BOTH fully God, and fully man. When Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, Jesus the man physically came into existence. That doesn't mean He didn't exist prior to that, but only in Spirit form. God the Son has always existed, since He is God, but Jesus the man did not exist in BOTH human and Divine form until His birth to Mary. That should make sense to anyone trying to understand. You may not agree with the premise, but that is the concept.

Prior to Christ's human birth, He existed as God the Son and Jesus, but again, God the Son has always existed because He is of the same essence as the Father, but Jesus the human/Divine hybrid did not exist physically until He was born of a human, the virgin Mary.

This is probably confusing to you because pagans do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and therefore don't have the ability to understand why this was necessary. So I'm not going to try and explain it to you because due to your spiritual ignorance, you would just not understand and we both would become frustrated. I could better use my time by sharing the Gospel with you and pray that the Holy Spirit will tap you on the shoulder and get your attention, and you will turn from paganism and the teachings of false prophets, to the True Jesus Christ and His Good News Gospel of mercy and forgiveness, rather than the impossible gospel of Mormonism.

[alanmolstad]

so to review....


Jesus has two totally different natures.

The divine nature is pure spirit and can not change and can not die.
The human nature is mortal and changes and dies.

[alanmolstad]

I believe most people would have a hard time reconciling these statements to one another:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

I have noticed you have not attempted to collate them either.



So to review for the poster -


The human nature of Jesus did not exist before it was made in the womb of his mother Mary.
Thus the human nature of Jesus did not have eternal life before his human death and resurrection.
This is why Jesus is called a "man" form he was truly 100% huam, the same as I am...and because we are therefore human brothers, I can look to his resurrection as a guide to my own one day.

For is God can raise the human flesh of Jesus to eternal life, then I can trust that God can do the same for my own human flesh!

So that is just what we know concerning the human nature of Jesus.




But lets not mix that up with the Divine nature of Christ!
For Jesus has 2 totally different natures, and of his divine nature it is everlasting, pure spirit and cant change, cant age, cant die...it has and always had , and will always be "Eternal life"!

So Jesus always had eternal life in his divine nature.






If you still have any questions just let me know and I will go over this again, and again, and even again if needed until it sinks in and you catch what im teaching you.

[dberrie2000]

So to review for the poster -

The human nature of Jesus did not exist before it was made in the womb of his mother Mary.
Thus the human nature of Jesus did not have eternal life before his human death and resurrection.

Wasn't this testimony previous to Jesus Christ becoming man?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

So to review for the poster -


The human nature of Jesus did not exist before it was made in the womb of his mother Mary.
Thus the human nature of Jesus did not have eternal life before his human death and resurrection.
This is why Jesus is called a "man" form he was truly 100% huam, the same as I am...and because we are therefore human brothers, I can look to his resurrection as a guide to my own one day.

For is God can raise the human flesh of Jesus to eternal life, then I can trust that God can do the same for my own human flesh!

So that is just what we know concerning the human nature of Jesus.




But lets not mix that up with the Divine nature of Christ!
For Jesus has 2 totally different natures, and of his divine nature it is everlasting, pure spirit and cant change, cant age, cant die...it has and always had , and will always be "Eternal life"!

So Jesus always had eternal life in his divine nature.






If you still have any questions just let me know and I will go over this again, and again, and even again if needed until it sinks in and you catch what im teaching you.

[dberrie2000]

So to review for the poster -

The human nature of Jesus did not exist before it was made in the womb of his mother Mary.
Thus the human nature of Jesus did not have eternal life before his human death and resurrection.
This is why Jesus is called a "man" form he was truly 100% huam, the same as I am...and because we are therefore human brothers, I can look to his resurrection as a guide to my own one day.

That does not touch the question I posed.

My question to you is--why didn't Jesus Christ possess eternal life before His mortality?


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

That does not touch the question I posed.

My question to you is--why didn't Jesus Christ possess eternal life before His mortality?


The human nature of Christ is the same as my own.
I dont have eternal life until the resurrection of Christ is fulfilled.

Now that the resurrection of Christ has happened, I can put my faith in it and the Lord, and thus it is now credited to me as well!!!!!


So the human body of Christ was born a normal human body....it aged, grew , got hungry, etc.
It died a normal human death.

Same death I will die

Same death that Adam died.

Thus the same resurrection that raised Jesus from the dead will also be able to in the same manner raise my mortal body from the dead.

The mortal will put on the immortal....the body placed in the grave to rot will be raised to live forever!


So that is how to look at your question from the stand point of the human nature of Christ.
He was born mortal, died because he was born mortal, and that same dead human body was raised to eternal life




But on the other hand, Jesus is eternal life.
Jesus always had eternal life in his divine nature as God Almighty.




any questions?

[alanmolstad]

My question to you is--why didn't Jesus Christ possess eternal life before His mortality?


So to answer the question directly "Did Jesus Christ have eternal life before the resurrection?: the answer is not as long as you are only considering his human nature.
The human nature of Christ was born mortal.
The moment the human body of Jesus aged in even the slightest way you have all the proof you need to know that he is just as born mortal as any other human.

This is why the Bible tells us about the "man" Christ Jesus...
For Jesus was born a true human "man".

So Jesus was born mortal, so that he could know the sufferings of being human...and could die.


This is how the Lord God, who cant age nor die, and has always eternal life and cant change that fact of His nature, was able to age, was able to suffer, was able to die a mortal death.


So in his Divine nature the answer to the question, "Did Jesus Christ have eternal life before the resurrection?" is "Yes!" , and that did not change, Yet in his human nature Jesus was born mortal and was raised after his death on the cross to eternal life.




any questions?

[alanmolstad]

So to answer the question directly "Did Jesus Christ have eternal life before the resurrection?: the answer is no, not as long as you are only considering his human nature.
The human nature of Christ was born mortal.
The moment the human body of Jesus aged in even the slightest way you have all the proof you need to know that he is just as born mortal as any other human.

This is why the Bible tells us about the "man" Christ Jesus...
For Jesus was born a true human "man".

So Jesus was born mortal, so that he could know the sufferings of being human...and could die.


This is how the Lord God, who cant age nor die, and has always eternal life and cant change that fact of His nature, was able to age, was able to suffer, was able to die a mortal death.


So in his Divine nature the answer to the question, "Did Jesus Christ have eternal life before the resurrection?" is "Yes!" , and that did not change, Yet in his human nature Jesus was born mortal and was raised after his death on the cross to eternal life.




any questions?

one of my better posted answers on this topic to date....

enjoy!