True Christianity

[dberrie2000]

BTW, CHRISTIANS have been repeating ourselves for about 2,000 years now. Mormons didn't come close to existing when we began.


I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[alanmolstad]

Christian = saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

[dberrie2000]

Christian = saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

No one has claimed anyone is saved by works.

So--is the term "faith" found in your post--a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

No one has claimed anyone is saved by works.

]

Good!

for we are saved only by Grace though faith, and not by works.

QUESTION - so what role do works have then in the story?

ANSWER - my works are just like the sound of my car's motor.
The sound tells me when the car is running, or when it it turned off.
The sound can also tell me how the motor is running and if there is some trouble.

But the sound does not in any way effect the way the car is running, nor does the sound of the car determine if the car is running or not.

The sound is just the effect we hear that tells us the motor is running.


No sound?, the motor is off.....





The works I have in my life are just like this sound of a car running.
My works dont add anything to my salvation.
My works are not something I try to go out and do as if they mean anything with my salvation.
But my works do tell me and others of my salvation...
The works are the after-effect of what being a strong Christian has done in my life.


This is why the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead....
Its the same as saying the a motor that makes no sound at all is not running....

[disciple]

No one has claimed anyone is saved by works.

So--is the term "faith" found in your post--a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Greetings,

I've often wondered why there can be any argument over this p***age in James.
Works are the proof of faith, works are the fruit of faith, works naturally follow true faith.
As a Christian who came from a catholic background I understand the aversion to mixing
works into salvation. As children in catholic school we were taught that that you must do
these things(works) to be accepted by God, but Ephesians 2 tells us that we were created
in Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we might walk in them.
Works come with faith just as God intended.

[alanmolstad]

Now in the world of the CULTs what we find is that the leadership of a CULT will get their followers to believe that 'works save'.

They might not change the wording in the Bible, but what they will do is twist the meanings around so far as to get their followers to believe that unless they do lots of works to support the CULT they are lost.

This gets them sucked into the "works salvation" way of thinking.

This is why members of CULTs work so hard for the CULT.

They are attempting to prove and maintain their own salvation by doing tons and tons of works.









The duty of the christian that runs into a member of a CULOT like the Mormons or the JWs or the Moonies, ect, is to just point out that all the works they might do in support of their CULT is a moot point.

it's meaningless.

its destructive to their lives.

Its building walls between therm and their Lord.



We should just offer them the truth that there is only one work that matters with God....and that is to have FAITH in his son....

[dberrie2000]

Good!

for we are saved only by Grace though faith, and not by works.

Again--when you see a reference to "faith" in the scriptures, as above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?


QUESTION - so what role do works have then in the story?

Seeing the scriptures testify all men will be judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

and they asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

Its a common idea...that people need to 'do" something in order to earn their salvation.

People want salvation be be something they can 'do' so as to be able to check that item off their list of things to do...



But the answer we get from the Scriptures is different and not what people want to hear at all.

There is no 'doing".


There is only believing.

[dberrie2000]

Greetings,

I've often wondered why there can be any argument over this p***age in James.
Works are the proof of faith, works are the fruit of faith, works naturally follow true faith.

Hi Disciple, appreciate your reply:

Well, as I see it--one of the problems arise in your above statement.

IOW--was it "true faith" before the works--as your post might indicate?


As a Christian who came from a catholic background I understand the aversion to mixing
works into salvation. As children in catholic school we were taught that that you must do
these things(works) to be accepted by God, but Ephesians 2 tells us that we were created
in Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we might walk in them.
Works come with faith just as God intended.

I don't understand your distinction between the two. What is the difference between obedience to the work of God--and walking in those works?

Are you claiming one has to do one to be accepted of God--and not the other? Your post is confusing, IMO.

So--was work mixed into salvation here?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[alanmolstad]

what position should a Christian have when it comes to works?


The answer is like this.



One time I was traveling in the South and I went into a small restaurant to get dinner.
The lady who came to the table to take my order told me what was for dinner that day.

"Burgers and grits, chicken and grits, eggs and grits, or potatoes and grits" she told me.

I looked uo at her and said, "I dont really want to order and grits"

She smiled, and said, "You dont order grits, grits just come!"







Works are like that in our lives....

[dberrie2000]

and they asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

Its a common idea...that people need to 'do" something in order to earn their salvation.

Did those of Acts 2:38 earn the remission of sins--or did God extend His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and do His work?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did these earn the right to the tree of life?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Or does God give His salvational grace unto life, to them which obey Him--and keep His commandments?

1 John 2:3-4--=-King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[disciple]

Hi Disciple, appreciate your reply:

Well, as I see it--one of the problems arise in your above statement.

IOW--was it "true faith" before the works--as your post might indicate?



I don't understand your distinction between the two. What is the difference between obedience to the work of God--and walking in those works?

Are you claiming one has to do one to be accepted of God--and not the other? Your post is confusing, IMO.

So--was work mixed into salvation here?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Hello DB,
Paul says in Romans 12, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith, faith to believe the Gospel, faith to do those works He has prepared for us.
In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think” as they use their spiritual gifts to perform good works. His final remedy for this pride is to say that not only are spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts and perform those works. How can we boast if we were given faith to believe and faith to do works?
That's how important humility is in God's eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast”, about their salvation or their works.

[alanmolstad]

again...they asked him, "What must I DO to be saved?"


and his answer is to list the Commandments....and tells the guy that if you do these things you will live.

So the guy responds that he has always done the listed Commandments....

Here is the moment that is where the real Truth comes out from our Lord.

For if doing things, if keeping the Commandments were able to save anyone, this would be the moment Jesus would support that idea by saying, "Well done, you have eternal life"


But whats Jesus does say totally undercuts the whole "works salvation": idea that is taught within the world of the CULTS...

For rather that supporting the idea that doing works can help save you, Jesus points out that keeping all the commandments is a moot point..

its FAITH that counts....



Works are meaningless!

Faith ,,,following Jesus is what God wants...

Not our works
Not out offerings.

God wants our heart!.......





This is why, a guy who is about to die, with no good works to his name, with not a single commandment kept, will go to heaven...

For its not a matter of our works that God is seeking out of us.
Its our changed hearts...hearts changed by FAITH....by BELIEVING!




"Today you will be with me in paradise!"





So what view should New testament Christian have of the Old testament Jewish Commandments?
They are to be seen as a school teacher who was a guide so that people would be able to recognize when the new Covenant was here!

The Old Covenant with all the laws and commandments is fulfilled!>
Ther Commandments rule the living, but we are dead in Christ, so we are now alive in Christ too.

The commandments have no ruling over the dead.,...



This is why the Christian should speak to the person tra[pped in the Mormon CIULT>
For the Mormon has pride in their works, but they have no faith.

For they have put their faith in a false god...a false jesus.

Thus the Mormon faith is "Dead faith ' (faith without works)

this is why I try hard to help Mormons see that their faith without works is a "dead faith": in a dead religion...

[dberrie2000]

again...they asked him, "What must I DO to be saved?"


and his answer is to list the Commandments....and tells the guy that if you do these things you will live.

So the guy responds that he has always done the listed Commandments....

Here is the moment that is where the real Truth comes out from our Lord.

For if doing things, if keeping the Commandments were able to save anyone, this would be the moment Jesus would support that idea by saying, "Well done, you have eternal life"

IOW--Jesus was just kidding when He testified to this?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[alanmolstad]

IOW--Jesus was just kidding when He testified to this?

......

not so much "kidding"
its like this....


Remember when Jesus asked his men, "Who do they say i am?"

When we read this question from Jesus, are we to understand that jesus had no clue as to what people were saying about him?


and then when Jesus ask, "Who do YOU say that I am?" are we to believe Jesus was clue-free as to what he own men thought of him?





What comes out in many things that Jesus says is that they are things he said in order to spur the conversation in a new direction.

an example is when Jesus told us that if we want to have life we must "eat" his flesh...and "drink" his blood.
He is not really kidding, but on the other hand we also have to understand that his words are not to be seen as just literal.


Jesus's resurrection was the ending of the Old Covenant, and the beginning of the New Covenant.

The New cant be the new unless the Old is shown to be no longer in effect.


So what Jesus is doing with the guy who asks about what he can "do" to gain life was to first point to what the guy wanted to be so very true!

jesus lists the very things the guy was doing in the hope of earning life...

Then, Jesus turns the table over and informs him that all that "works" was pointless and still left a person short.


Then Jesus tells him that life is only gained by following him.

in other words, life is only given to they who believe.





works are a moot point.

[dberrie2000]

IOW--Jesus was just kidding when He testified to this?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



not so much "kidding"
its like this....


Remember when Jesus asked his men, "Who do they say i am?"

When we read this question from Jesus, are we to understand that jesus had no clue as to what people were saying about him?


and then when Jesus ask, "Who do YOU say that I am?" are we to believe Jesus was clue-free as to what he own men thought of him?

Actually--it's more like this:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[alanmolstad]

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed ]


John 6:28







any more questions?

[Christian]

Since joe smith's imaginary fairytales bear little to NO RESEMBLANCE to TRUE Christianity (what Jesus Christ actually built), your nonsensical question and misapplication of SCRIPTURE is BOGUS.

Sorry berry, but you haven't anything to hang your hat on. You can't even stick a rock in YOUR hat and get 'revelation from your god.'

CHRIST'S church NEVER HAD
'joe's priesthood authority doctrine'
joe's little boy 'elders'
joe's false spirit-brother-of-satan-demonic-'jesus'
joe's false god who used to be a man
joe's false god that theoretically has a physical body
joe's one-man-led religion
joe's fairytale of 'jesus' coming to the Americas
joe's invented 'nephites'
joe's made up ordination and baptism when he and ollie went out and played 'let's play religion.'
joe's false 'apostles'

You cannot find ANY OF THAT DUNG in the first century church that JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) BUILT.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Actually--it's more like this:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



John 6:28

John 6:28--King James Version (KJV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

How does that limit God's requirements to Matthew19:16-19?

[dberrie2000]

Since joe smith's imaginary fairytales bear little to NO RESEMBLANCE to TRUE Christianity

Then perhaps you can relate to us what is found in the Book of Mormon--which is not found in the Biblical NT--as to salvational doctrines?

There is one thing for sure--the Biblical text defies faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[jude1:3]

I've noticed that things get weird when people take either view to the extreme on this question just like with many other topics.



The scriptures are clear that you will be given according to your works And that you are saved by Grace through faith. It's not one or the other.

[dberrie2000]

I've noticed that things get weird when people take either view to the extreme on this question just like with many other topics.

The scriptures are clear that you will be given according to your works

Hi Jude:

If that is true--then faith alone theology is false, IMO.

[jude1:3]

Hi Jude:

If that is true--then faith alone theology is false, IMO.



I guess it would be better to say Grace alone instead of faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

I guess it would be better to say Grace alone instead of faith alone.
the only really important point to keep in mind is that when we talk to people about Christ and the path of salvation given in the Bible, that we make sure the other person understands that works dont save anyone.

Works are always with but not the cause of our salvation.


But the names of things change over the years , and different people have different styles...

The verse that binds us all as Christians is the one that clearly spells it all out for us...

That we are saved by Grace though FAITH, and not by works!

as long as we all center our teachings on that verse we cant go wrong.

[jude1:3]

the only really important point to keep in mind is that when we talk to people about Christ and the path of salvation given in the Bible, that we make sure the other person understands that works dont save anyone.

Works are always with but not the cause of our salvation.






I agree.

The only thing we got to be careful of though is saying that we don't need works. We Absolutely Need Works, Not for Salvation but to show that we are being obedient to God. Jesus said to feed the sick, visit people in prison, love our neighbor, Etc.

He also said that He will give to every one according to his work *Revelation 22:12 * Revelation 2:23.

[dberrie2000]

I guess it would be better to say Grace alone instead of faith alone.

Hi Jude:

Now that's something I can relate with.

[dberrie2000]

I agree.

The only thing we got to be careful of though is saying that we don't need works. We Absolutely Need Works, Not for Salvation but to show that we are being obedient to God.


Hebrews 5:9--King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Christian]

Then perhaps you can relate to us what is found in the Book of Mormon--which is not found in the Biblical NT--as to salvational doctrines?

There is one thing for sure--the Biblical text defies faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You have been shown MANY TIMES how your taking that one sentence OUT OF CONTEXT shows your theory and understanding of God's Word to be wrong. The constant repe***ion of your error by you shows that you appear to be the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14. TRUE CHRISTIANITY seems to be foolishness to you.

Since that sentence is about how a person is justified IN THE EYES OF A MAN WHO 'SAYS' he is a Christian, it is NOT ABOUT how a person is justified IN THE EYES OF GOD.

James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
NKJV


HERE is God's perspective:

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.
NKJV


Do you REALLY want to call God a liar and claim that YOU 'gotta help Him' by 'doing good works' to 'get saved?'

WE CHRISTIANS don't do that.

Faith GIVES US SALVATION which THEN RESULTS IN WORKS.

WE CHRISTIANS have been saved by FAITH and we DO THE WORKS OF GOD BECAUSE of that salvation, not to 'earn it.'

You may RIP STUFF OUT OF THE BIBLE OUT OF CONTEXT all you want, and you may try to debunk the Bible all you want, but you STILL cannot make mormon-specific JUNK become 'Christian.'

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then perhaps you can relate to us what is found in the Book of Mormon--which is not found in the Biblical NT--as to salvational doctrines?

There is one thing for sure--the Biblical text defies faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


You have been shown MANY TIMES how your taking that one sentence OUT OF CONTEXT shows your theory and understanding of God's Word to be wrong.

That is the usual retort of the faith alone whenever scriptures are quoted which defy faith alone theology.


Since that sentence is about how a person is justified IN THE EYES OF A MAN WHO 'SAYS' he is a Christian, it is NOT ABOUT how a person is justified IN THE EYES OF GOD.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Christian--could you show us where anyone but God can justify a man? If God justified Abraham according to his works--what difference does it make what man sees?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

there is a justification by works, and there is a justification by faith.

The justification by works is before men.
This is how you know Im a Christian, by looking at my works.
You have to just look at the things I do and say because no person can look into my heart and know for sure whats going on inside there.

The Justification by faith is before God.
For God alone sees into the inner heart of a man and knows for sure whats going on in there.


So to review:
The Justification by works is before men, and this is how we justify ourselves to others.
But the Justification by Faith is before God,,and this fits with the verse that tells us that we are Saved by GRACE thought FAITH, and not by works....

[dberrie2000]

there is a justification by works, and there is a justification by faith.

The justification by works is before men.

Where do we find any reference "justification before men" in the scriptures?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And, seeing the works are attached to faith--how do the faith alone collate that with faith alone theology?


This is how you know Im a Christian, by looking at my works.

Is that how God sees a Christian--by judging all men according to their works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[dberrie2000]

Where do we find any reference "justification before men" in the scriptures?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And, seeing the works are attached to faith--how do the faith alone collate that with faith alone theology?

Is that how God sees a Christian--by judging all men according to their works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

No one is questioning whether eternal life comes by grace alone--only, who does God gives this grace to?

Care to address the above scriptures?

[alanmolstad]

No one is questioning whether eternal life comes by grace alone--only, who does God gives this grace to?
?

You mean like the thief on the cross?....

I guess the answer is any who turn to him.

It does not matter the sin-filled life you have led.
It does not matter if you are on your death bed and have never one behaved correctly.
It does not matter if you never once followed anyone rules, written down or not.


When asked who was the greatest in the Kingdom of God? Jesus could have looked around and spotted a bunch of people there who have spent their whole lives following the Commandments and doing good works....

Yet he pointed to a small child.






We adults tend to look on the outsides of people.
We judge people according to their works.
We judge your faith by what we see you doing,,,or hear you saying...
We hold to the concept of the "Justification by works" because we dont actually have a clue what other people are thinking.


God looks at the heart.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post No one is questioning whether eternal life comes by grace alone--only, who does God gives this grace to?


You mean like the thief on the cross?....

I mean like all of mankind:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[alanmolstad]

I mean like all of mankind:


When you die in Christ as a Christian believer, and when you go before the Lord in judgement, the Lord will look at you and only see Jesus on the cross.....
For it is not your life anymore, but his life lived though you now..

We die in Christ...we are raised in his resurrection.
The Law and the Commandments have a power to reach the liveing, but we who died in Christ are not under the Commandments of the living, for we are dead to them and they have no power over the dead...


But what Commandments are we Christians to cling to as living now in Him?

The Commandments of Christ are they that he gave to his church...for they are Commandments not written in stone, but are written on our hearts...

What are they?.....


They are the things that will become part of your life as you draw closer and closer to Christ...
They flow into our hearts as a natural part of living in Christ....

they are like an after-effect of walking in the Lord.

Things like "When you stand praying, forgive"Mark 11:25-26 NIV

You must be born again
Let your light shine before men
Settle matters quickly with your adversary
Get rid of whatever causes you to sin
Do Not Swear at All
Turning the other cheek
Going the extra mile
Love Your Enemies
Pray Privately, Not to be Seen
Do not Store up Treasures on Earth
Do not Worry about Tomorrow
Ask, Seek, and Knock



The list goes on, but we get from this the understanding that such things will become part of our Christian walk as we live and grow in the Lord.
We are transformed to being like him as we draw closer and closer to him.

[dberrie2000]

When you die in Christ as a Christian believer, and when you go before the Lord in judgement, the Lord will look at you and only see Jesus on the cross.....

If that is your opinion--ok.

But what the scriptures testify to--is Jesus sees one's works--and judges all of mankind in according with those works--and that for life or ****ation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[alanmolstad]

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


and Jesus got around to talking about the "works" that seem so important.

A guy asked him what must we do to work such works that seem so important to God?

And Jesus gave a very clear answer....the Answer Jesus gave us is that actually there is but one single work that is important...
and that one "work" is to have faith in him.





This fits with my statement where I talk about how the christian is judged, for when we are judged all our Judge will see is the Lord on the cross....

"Paid in full" is listed for all our sins....and we receive the reward that is ours in Christ.

[dberrie2000]

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


and Jesus got around to talking about the "works" that seem so important.

A guy asked him what must we do to work such works that seem so important to God?

And Jesus gave a very clear answer....the Answer Jesus gave us is that actually there is but one single work that is important...
and that one "work" is to have faith in him.

So--when you find that reference to "faith" in the scriptures--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[alanmolstad]

So--when you find that reference to "faith" in the scriptures--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

You asked this question before...my answer is still the same.

Works dont save...
faith is what its all about....
Faith is what God is seeking our of us.

Works are just like grits at a Memphis restaurant....you don't order grits, "Grits just come!"



When Jesus said we will be judged by our works a guy then asked him how to do these "works" that we will be judged by?

And Jesus answered that actually its not "works" but just one single "work" of God that is all important..

And that "work" is to have faith in His son.


This fits with the verse that teaches us that we are saved by Grace thought faith and not by works, so that people dont look at their works and think they matter, but rather understand that God looks at the heart.


Its like what Dr Walter Martin talks about in the cool video I might yet post again for you to watch.
The Bible says that Abraham was justified by his works in that he raised the knife over his son.
...thats works...men can see and understand a guy holding a knife over the neck of their own son.......thats a great example of "Justification by works"

But on the other hand....

The Bible also tells us that God saw the heart of Abraham before he even climbed up the mountain and had declared him righteous!

Thats a great example of Justified by faith!


So Our works show our inner heart to other men
And our faith in our heart is seen by God alone.

[dberrie2000]

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


and Jesus got around to talking about the "works" that seem so important.

A guy asked him what must we do to work such works that seem so important to God?

And Jesus gave a very clear answer....the Answer Jesus gave us is that actually there is but one single work that is important...

and that one "work" is to have faith in him.

Again--is that reference to "faith" a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

[dberrie2000]

Its like what Dr Walter Martin talks about in the cool video I might yet post again for you to watch.
The Bible says that Abraham was justified by his works in that he raised the knife over his son.
...thats works...men can see and understand a guy holding a knife over the neck of their own son.......thats a great example of "Justification by works"

But on the other hand....

The Bible also tells us that God saw the heart of Abraham before he even climbed up the mountain and had declared him righteous!

Thats a great example of Justified by faith!


So Our works show our inner heart to other men
And our faith in our heart is seen by God alone.

This seems to be what God saw in Abraham:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

yes...
There is a justification by works and a justification by faith.

By works is when we do things that other people see....
By faith is the channel we are saved from ****ation though, for it is what only the Lord can see and judge us by.


Men look on the outsides and judge according to this limited vision.

But God judges truly for He sees into the inner man's heart.

Amen!

[alanmolstad]

I will post a video by Dr Walter Martin that talks about this issue. :)

stand by.....

[dberrie2000]

I will post a video by Dr Walter Martin that talks about this issue. :)

stand by.....

I have an even more authoritative source(no need to stand by)--

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

I will post a video by Dr Walter Martin that talks about this issue. :)

stand by.....

searching now....stand by

[Christian]

good!

For we are saved only by grace though faith, and not by works.

question - so what role do works have then in the story?

answer - my works are just like the sound of my car's motor.
The sound tells me when the car is running, or when it it turned off.
The sound can also tell me how the motor is running and if there is some trouble.

But the sound does not in any way effect the way the car is running, nor does the sound of the car determine if the car is running or not.

The sound is just the effect we hear that tells us the motor is running.


No sound?, the motor is off.....





The works i have in my life are just like this sound of a car running.
My works dont add anything to my salvation.
My works are not something i try to go out and do as if they mean anything with my salvation.
But my works do tell me and others of my salvation...
The works are the after-effect of what being a strong christian has done in my life.


This is why the bible tells us that faith without works is dead....
Its the same as saying the a motor that makes no sound at all is not running....

excellent ****ogy!

[alanmolstad]

excellent ****ogy!



Thanks!

I hope to try to write things that are useful.

[alanmolstad]

I will post a video by Dr Walter Martin that talks about this issue. :)

stand by.....



The important part of the video that deals with out topic is at 1:11

There you will learn all you need to know about the justification of Works, and the justification by FAITH!


Enjoy.... :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[Christian]

I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

preaching the manmade horse apples that joey smith invented is NOT GOOD FRUIT. We CHRISTIANS do not do that.

Instead

We preach what GOD GAVE in the Bible:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJ

Just WHAT DO YOU THINK THE WILL OF GOD IS for each of us? Oh yes, it is to BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST, not to do your manmade 'ordinances' and junk.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


preaching the manmade horse apples that joey smith invented is NOT GOOD FRUIT.

What do you consider "horse apples" about Matthew7:19-21?

[Christian]

I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

In your momonic ignorance you cannot conceive of the TRUTH that FAITH BRINGS ABOUT WORKS ALWAYS, but it is the FAITH (not the works) THAT SAVES US CHRISTIANS.

Your pretense that Christians don't do the works of God is a LIE promulgated by your cult, the lds cult.

GOD tells us:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV


THAT is BIBLICAL Christianity. Mormonics can't understand that because:


1 Cor 2:13-14 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

So they don't make sense to you; they are foolishness to you.

The BIBLICAL truth is this:

Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV



Of course none of THAT makes sense to you either, does it?

We are saved from the penalty of our sins and OUR FAITH is counted as righteousness before God.

Sorry that you don't understand any of that, and that you are incapable of understanding CHRISTIANITY just as the atheists, other cult groups, and other heathens are incapable of.

also sorry you're following a false prophet and false christ; they will not get you to heaven either, no matter HOW you redefine it.

[dberrie2000]

In your momonic ignorance you cannot conceive of the TRUTH that FAITH BRINGS ABOUT WORKS ALWAYS, but it is the FAITH (not the works) THAT SAVES US CHRISTIANS.

In the LDS church--it's God's grace that saves.


Your pretense that Christians don't do the works of God is a LIE promulgated by your cult, the lds cult.

I don't believe I have ever postulated who does the works--and who does not, only the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and[COLOR="#FF0000"] not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

, only the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works.





The error you make and make and make , is that you mix up the phrase, "not by works" with the phrase "without works"

That type of error on your part leads you to the deeper error you have in your not understanding of Christian teachings on this topic...

[alanmolstad]

The error you make and make and make , is that you mix up the phrase, "not by works" with the phrase "without works"

That type of error on your part leads you to the deeper error you have in your not understanding of Christian teachings on this topic...
See thats the thing here...

The person makes the same mistake over and over...

The Christian says, "Not by works' and the person trapped in the CULT only hears, "Without works"




Its the same conversation...year after year....
it never changes....it never gets past this one same error.



Christian says"Saved by grace thought faith and not by works"

and the Cultist says, "Is that faith with works or faith without works?"

And the Christian says "I never said it was without works, I said it was not by works"

and the cultist answers. "So you admit its faith without works!"


And the christian asks, "Did I ever say faith was without works?




and it goes round and round.....




as long as the person trapped in the CULT cant tell the difference between the phrase "Not by works" and "Without works" they are doomed to never understand the Good News of the Bible.....

[dberrie2000]

The error you make and make and make , is that you mix up the phrase, "not by works" with the phrase "without works"

That type of error on your part leads you to the deeper error you have in your not understanding of Christian teachings on this topic...

I understand it well, Alan. Faith alone theology is a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Saxon]

I understand it well, Alan. Faith alone theology is a salvation through a faith without works.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Your problem seems to be that you do not believe the same as Christians believe. Mormons are not Christians and cannot know what the Bible is saying because you are not allowed to read it without direction from the LDS authority.

As a Christian the Bible is specific about salvation. As a Christian I know my eternal destiny, heaven or hell. As a Mormon you do not know what your destination is after death as you have no way of knowing if you are on a successful journey to exultation to godhood.

There is a different life for one that is currently saved and knows that they are going to heaven when this earthly life is over. In order to be saved there is no works involved. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9)

Once that you are saved and are "in Christ Jesus", (See Ephesians 2:10) there is works that every one that is a Christian is to do because God has ordained that we should walk in them, DO them. A Christian does not do the works that God has ordained in order to get saved (See Ephesians 2:9) but because the Christian is already saved, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (See Ephesians 2:10) It is very clear that the unsaved cannot do works for salvation because if works were required then salvation would not be a gift (See Ephesians 2:8) but an earned wage.

Salvation by grace through faith that is a gift of God does not change because James makes a statement that you have no idea what he means. Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is relating to gaining salvation while Ephesians 2:10 and James 2:20-26 is relating to what is expected by God of those that are already saved.

You should really read the Bible as it is written and forget what the LDS is feeding you. You are going to stand before your creator, not some man that impregnated a woman on some nonexistent planet that is akin to the second star to the right and on until morning.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:20 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

I understand it well,]

No,,,In fact you mixed them up again just now!....LOL

[dberrie2000]

Your problem seems to be that you do not believe the same as Christians believe.

Are you referring to these Christians--or the "Christianity" of the faith alone theology?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[dberrie2000]

No,,,In fact you mixed them up again just now!....LOL

Personally--I don't mix them, Alan. I don't believe they can be mixed. The Biblical record differentiates between faith alone theology--and true Christianity:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[alanmolstad]

Are you referring to these Christians--or the "Christianity" of the faith alone theology?
.[/B]
Once again you are mixing up to different ideas...

"by works " and "without works"

[dberrie2000]

Once again you are mixing up to different ideas...

"by works " and "without works"

Again, Alan--I don't mix the two. The Christianity of the Biblical text--which testifies a faith without works is a dead faith--is a whole different theology than the faith alone theology--which is a salvation through a fith without works.

IOW--the faith alone preach a salvation through a dead faith.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[Christian]

Again, Alan--I don't mix the two. The Christianity of the Biblical text--which testifies a faith without works is a dead faith--is a whole different theology than the faith alone theology--which is a salvation through a fith without works.

IOW--the faith alone preach a salvation through a dead faith.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Are YOU STILL FLOGGING THAT DEAD HORSE? We have pointed out the TRUTH that you do not understand what 'faith only' is saying. You have been CORRECTED BIBLICALLY on MANY occasions.

Why do you keep railing against something that nobody believes. Nobodybelieves that TRUE CHRISTIANS do not do the works of God. You keep proving your ignorance of the doctrine,

But then again. . .

1 Cor 2:13-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

You clearly do not know the things of God; you keep promoting the same cult's con over and over again.

I will continue to pray for your poor lost soul.

[alanmolstad]

Im not sure what the guy is flogging......

[alanmolstad]

so...once again....


A Christian believe we are saved by Grace though Faith and not "BY WORKS".

But a Christians believes that Faith is never alone.
A Christian believes that works flow from his faith,,,so much so that your faith is never alone..


So we are not saved by works, but we are never without works too.

This is whjere the member of a CULT will screw up and mix the idea of being saved "by works" with the idea that a person cant have faith "without works"


We are not saved by works....yet at the same time our faith is never without works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again, Alan--I don't mix the two. The Christianity of the Biblical text--which testifies a faith without works is a dead faith--is a whole different theology than the faith alone theology--which is a salvation through a fith without works.

IOW--the faith alone preach a salvation through a dead faith.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


[COLOR=#006400][B]Are YOU STILL FLOGGING THAT DEAD HORSE?

What do you find as a "dead horse" about the above scriptures?

Care to address those scriptures?

[Christian]

What do you find as a "dead horse" about the above scriptures?

Care to address those scriptures?

The SCRIPTURES are not 'dead horse,' but YOUR MISREPRESENTATION OF THEM IS.

I have addressed those scriptures dozens of times with you, but you cannot understand spiritual things, clearly.

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

Yes, we all know you think they are foolishness and you CANNOT KNOW them because they are spiritually discerned.

I will continue to pray for your poor soul, that you may find the REAL Jesus Christ, the REAL Heavenly Father, and will come to the REAL GOD instead of worshiping a demon christ and a god you think was once a man as sinful as you.

[Christian]

Personally--I don't mix them, Alan. I don't believe they can be mixed. The Biblical record differentiates between faith alone theology--and true Christianity:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Let's see now. . .the Bible ALSO SAYS:

Matt 27:3
3 Then Judas
NKJV
Matt 27:5
hanged himself.
NKJV



Luke 10:37
Then Jesus said. . , "Go and do likewise."
NKJV

See? I can misuse and take out of context scripture JUST AS YOU TRY TO DO.

Do YOU keep His 10 commandments? When was the last time YOU worshiped on the Sabbath (SA****AY?)????

[dberrie2000]

Let's see now. . .the Bible ALSO SAYS:

Matt 27:3
3 Then Judas
NKJV
Matt 27:5
hanged himself.
NKJV



Luke 10:37
Then Jesus said. . , "Go and do likewise."
NKJV

See? I can misuse and take out of context scripture JUST AS YOU TRY TO DO.

I noticed you did not engage the scriptures.

What do you find as "out of context" about the posted scriptures?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [COLOR="#FF0000"]not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Do YOU keep His 10 commandments?

What has what I do or don't do have to do with what the scriptures testify to?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is your point that if I keep the commandments--then the scriptures are true--and if I don't--then they are false?

[Saxon]

Are you referring to these Christians--or the "Christianity" of the faith alone theology?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I am referring to the Christianity contained in the Bible, the Bible alone. Anything besides the Bible, at best, is uninspired opinion and has NO authority.

[dberrie2000]

I am referring to the Christianity contained in the Bible, the Bible alone. Anything besides the Bible, at best, is uninspired opinion and has NO authority.

Thanks for the reply, Saxon.

Then you are referring to this Christianity?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[alanmolstad]

Let's see now. . .the Bible ALSO SAYS:

Matt 27:3
3 Then Judas
NKJV
Matt 27:5
hanged himself.
NKJV



Luke 10:37
Then Jesus said. . , "Go and do likewise."
NKJV

See? I can misuse and take out of context scripture JUST AS YOU TRY TO DO.

Do YOU keep His 10 commandments? When was the last time YOU worshiped on the Sabbath (SA****AY?)????

This was a good one!

[Saxon]

Like I said, you have no understanding of the Bible Christianity whatsoever.

[dberrie2000]

Thanks for the reply, Saxon.

Then you are referring to this Christianity?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Like I said, you have no understanding of the Bible Christianity whatsoever.

Hi Saxon:

Taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

What don't you consider "Bible Christianity" about the above scripture?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[Saxon]

Hi Saxon:
Taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.
What don't you consider "Bible Christianity" about the above scripture?

It is so! You have no concept of Bible Christianity because you have been taught by the LDS that the Bible is unreliable. You have your head so far up the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants that you don’t pay attention to the Bible. You fail to read the Bible for what it is saying in the context that it is placed.

You fail miserably to notice that there are statements that refer to the lost becoming saved (if you even know what being saved is) and the saved living there lives after salvation as a saved person.

Ephesians 2:8 and 9 are referring to the lost becoming saved. It states that to get saved it is by the grace of God, God’s part, through faith, Person’s part. Verse 9 says that it is NOT of WORKS. This nullifies your foolish garbage of trying in any way of ***ociating salvation and works. You again have no clue about Bible salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 is a statement about those that are saved, those that are “in Christ Jesus”. It is clear the those that are created in Christ Jesus are to do the works that God has ordained.

It is clear from Ephesians 2:8 to 10 that the lost do not do any works to become saved. It is also clear that those that are saved are to do works because they are saved.

Romans 4:4 says that the one that works it is not grace but debt. If you work for salvation the work nullifies grace (See Romans 11:6) Ephesians is stating that it is not of works but it is of grace.

Your idea that works are needed to be saved is totally opposed to what the Bible teaches.


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.




1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John is referring to those that are already saved. The saved are the only ones that will keep his commandments, the lost are not keeping the commandments and never will as long as they remain lost.




Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The context of this scripture is that the law was the required standard of life at the time Jesus was asked that question. After the death and resurrection of Christ grace superseded the law as the standard of life.

I am not saying that the verses from the Bible are not Bible Christianity, it is you trying to make works to be needed to become saved that is not Bible Christianity. As I said before, you have no clue as to Bible Christianity.

[dberrie2000]

It is so! You have no concept of Bible Christianity because you have been taught by the LDS that the Bible is unreliable. You have your head so far up the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants that you don’t pay attention to the Bible. You fail to read the Bible for what it is saying in the context that it is placed.

Straw man arguments are neither convincing nor compelling either.


John is referring to those that are already saved. The saved are the only ones that will keep his commandments, the lost are not keeping the commandments and never will as long as they remain lost.

That only connects being saved with keeping the commandments:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


The context of this scripture is that the law was the required standard of life at the time Jesus was asked that question.

When did Jesus change?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


After the death and resurrection of Christ grace superseded the law as the standard of life.

The standard of life never changed--as that was Jesus Himself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


I am not saying that the verses from the Bible are not Bible Christianity, it is you trying to make works to be needed to become saved that is not Bible Christianity.

Then could you explain for us why all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[Saxon]

You no nothing of the Bible and you don't want to.

[alanmolstad]

You no nothing of the Bible and you don't want to.

The commandments of christ....
You know a while ago i made and posted a list of all the commandments that Christ gave us to follow.

The one thing you notice about them is that they are things that flow out of a Christian heart naturally....(Love one another as I have loved you etc)

Also, the verse that says Chriost will judge us according to our works got a guy to ask Christ "what are the works?"
And Jesus tells us that there is actually only one work...to "believe" in the son.

thats it,,,thats the only work the Christian is expected to perform....to have "faith"

[dberrie2000]

The commandments of christ....
You know a while ago i made and posted a list of all the commandments that Christ gave us to follow.

The one thing you notice about them is that they are things that flow out of a Christian heart naturally....(Love one another as I have loved you etc)

Also, the verse that says Chriost will judge us according to our works got a guy to ask Christ "what are the works?"
And Jesus tells us that there is actually only one work...to "believe" in the son.

thats it,,,thats the only work the Christian is expected to perform....to have "faith"

Where do we find that Jesus stated the only work was to believe?

Wasn't this Christ who stated this?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Are the ones who keep His commandments the ones who believe?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[alanmolstad]

where?'''i will google it in a moment.









The whole context goes like this.

Jesus was teaching that in the judgement you will be judged acording to your works.

This naturally got people to ask, "what works?"

people naturally wanted to know what works they can 'do' that will lead to eternal life?

So Jesus told them...

What Jesus says is that there is actually only one work that counts.....and that work is to 'believe' in the Son that god has sent.

This is talking about the fact that in real terms, works are not going to save us, but we will be held to give account of our "FAITH".....

For grace works only though "FAITH" and not though works at all.....not even a little bit.





so its our FAITH that counts alone...but our FAITH is never alone

[Christian]

where?'''i will google it in a moment.









The whole context goes like this.

Jesus was teaching that in the judgement you will be judged acording to your works.

This naturally got people to ask, "what works?"

people naturally wanted to know what works they can 'do' that will lead to eternal life?

So Jesus told them...

What Jesus says is that there is actually only one work that counts.....and that work is to 'believe' in the Son that god has sent.

This is talking about the fact that in real terms, works are not going to save us, but we will be held to give account of our "FAITH".....

For grace works only though "FAITH" and not though works at all.....not even a little bit.





so its our FAITH that counts alone...but our FAITH is never alone

Excellent post!

[jude1:3]

If you want rewards in Heaven you must be obedient to God. The works are not what save you but your works do determine your obedience and heavenly rewards.

The Lord Jesus commanded us to feed the poor, visit prisoners etc. so we better do it to show our love for God. John says that we show our love for God by keeping His commandments.

[dberrie2000]

If you want rewards in Heaven you must be obedient to God. The works are not what save you but your works do determine your obedience and heavenly rewards.

The Lord Jesus commanded us to feed the poor, visit prisoners etc. so we better do it to show our love for God. John says that we show our love for God by keeping His commandments.

Hi Jude:

I believe that to be the truth--and anyone who studies the Bible will find that theme woven throughout the Biblical NT.

I would like to add something here that might clarify the doctrine of Christ ever further, that is--the judgment of all men, after death--and that in accordance to one's works--is a judgment for either life--or ****ation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[alanmolstad]

there is no condemnation for Christians...
We will not be judged onto ****ation at all...thats the point of being a Christian .


The Lost are judged by their works....The saved are judged by HIS work....

The lost burn forever in hell....

The saved have already p***ed from death to life....

[dberrie2000]

there is no condemnation for Christians...

There might not be any condemnation for true Christians--but true Christians will have the works. What is it about Paul's testimony you don't believe?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

There are numerous people who claim to be Christians that are no different from those who are in the world--and very much a part of it.

There are those who claim to be Christians who are part of every thing Paul lists here:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Christians who believe it is by faith alone one is saved--and then do the works of the devil--will find in the day of judgment they will be exposed for just what they are, IE--adulterers, fornicators, murderers, drunkards, etc.

They will see, and know--in that day--professing Christ, and then denying Him in their works--was just something they could only fool themselves about during their mortal existence.

[alanmolstad]

nmope...we are NOT JUDGED onto condemnation.
TRather we haver ALREADY p***ed from death onto life...

This is why there is no possability of condemnation for Christians....none....zip...zero...

[dberrie2000]

nmope...we are NOT JUDGED onto condemnation.
TRather we haver ALREADY p***ed from death onto life...

This is why there is no possability of condemnation for Christians....none....zip...zero...

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[alanmolstad]

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus

[alanmolstad]

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life

[alanmolstad]

So the Christian will not be judged onto condemnation ? .....this is true, the Christian will not ever be condemned.

Is there a record of the sins of a christian in heaven that that might be judged on?......no, all my sins are forgiven and already forgotten.

Is there a record of works of the Christian in heaven ?....yes, but it is not 'their" works but the lord's that are worked though the Christian.

[dberrie2000]

So the Christian will not be judged onto condemnation ?

True Christians will be judged unto eternal life:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Those who claim to be Christians--and live otherwise--will be judged according to this standard:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Alan--could you explain to us how you fit all men being judged according to their works--and that for life or ****ation--into faith alone theology?

[Christian]

I noticed you did not engage the scriptures.

What do you find as "out of context" about the posted scriptures?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



What has what I do or don't do have to do with what the scriptures testify to?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is your point that if I keep the commandments--then the scriptures are true--and if I don't--then they are false?

You have been shown your error multiple times, not an error in the SCRIPTURES, but the error in YOUR UNDERSTANDING of them.

In your pretended exegesis you IGNORE THE CONTEXT of what Jesus says AND TO WHOM.

When talking to a Jew (they are still under the old testament LAW), THEY ARE under the law.

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT. We have DIED TO THE LAW that we may be joined to JESUS CHRIST.

Gal 5:16-18
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
NKJV


Rom 6:5-11

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV



Rom 7:3-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful p***ions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

[Berean]

I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Nonsense.

It has been explained to you so many times that I'm sure you have it memorized, that works are the result of faith, not the other way around. You ignore the Scriptures that easily prove your narrative wrong, only to restate this same false, intellectually dishonest argument.

The Scriptures you use to make your argument, must be taken out of context for your argument to have merit. But since you have taken them out of context, they do not "mean" what you seek to imply that they do. The meaning is lost because you intentionally disregard the MANY OTHER Scriptures which prove your argument wrong. I can cause the Bible to say anything I want to by your method of eisegesis -- taking verses out of context and applying their meaning to a false narrative. This is the only way your argument seems to "work."

Perhaps you should focus on your own religions flaws rather than attempting to make arguments about things you, as a non-believer, can have no concept of due to your lack of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which only those who have faith alone have been given.

Take for example, the impossible gospel of Mormonism. You should be more concerned with your own salvation rather than ours, since Mormons have been condemned to the lake of fire for eternity by the doctrines your Mormon leaders have required you to follow. For example:

Such verses as Moroni 10:32; 2 Ne 25:23; Alma 11:37; 34; 34,35 clearly indicate that one must become "godly" in this lifetime, completely sinless, or you are sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. And since all men have, do and will sin without end, Mormons are toast, regardless of how hard you try.

On the other hand, having faith in Jesus Christ alone, independent of one's "works," which Isaiah claims are filthy rags, is clearly the Scriptural definition of salvation, not the works based and hopeless lie the Mormon religion preaches wherein one must "save himself" and become absolutely sinless in this lifetime, or be sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. (with the false prophet, I must add)

So the claim that faith alone is faith without works, or that that faith is dead faith, is clearly proven to be false, when one considers more than just those verses which "seem" to make that argument. But when one takes into consideration all of the Scriptures, which you intentionally do not do, it becomes very clear that your argument has no basis.

Mormons call free grace cheap grace, but there was nothing "cheap" about Christ giving His life for our sins. What is "cheap" is expecting your own worthless efforts to do the "work" that Jesus has done, and which your doctrines diminish and deny. Here is what Jesus has to say about that...

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28–30.)

Your argument that the Scriptures insist that one must "work" is clearly dismissed. The claim that faith without works is dead faith, and proves that faith alone is wrong, is disproved many times over. We are to rest from our works, because Jesus Christ has done the work for us. We are to rely on His "Work" not our own.

"For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. (Heb 4:8-11)

You have clearly fallen into disobedience, by teaching that "works" are required for salvation, when the Scriptures clearly prove that is false. Salvation is by grace, through faith, plus nothing, is the ONLY means one may achieve salvation. See John 3:16

[Berean]

And when we say the word "Christian, DBerrie, we are certainly NOT referring to the Mormon religion. That is just one of the many misconceptions about Mormonism.

The following is an example of how and why unlearned Christians are duped into joining the Mormon Church. Here is an article (http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/religion/2016/11/15/how-irreverent-book-mormon-led-one-nashville-mans-conversion/93447544/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=) that describes a new Mormon's conversion experience.

Here are 5 misconceptions about Mormonism

My comments below

Ammon Smartt, the volunteer public affairs director for the Tennessee Nashville Coordinating Council, explains five misconceptions about his faith:

1. We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind may be saved. Some think that we are not Christian, but we revere the New Testament as scripture and believe in the life and mission of Jesus Christ detailed therein.

2. We believe the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. It complements the Bible and is evidence that there is continuing revelation from God today.

3. We believe that we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, after all we can do. Our own efforts to obey God’s commandments will be insufficient because no one is perfect.

4. We believe in marriage between one man and one woman. We do not practice polygamy.

5. We believe in the same organization that existed in the church established in the Bible, including apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. We believe in living prophets who are also known in scripture as special witnesses of Christ. We do not pray to Joseph Smith or any other man. We only worship God.

Here is my critique:

1. These myths are widely held among Mormons who are woefully ignorant of the teachings and history of their Church. Especially the myth that Mormons are Christians. Mormons claim to believe and revere the Bible as the Word of God, but their leaders have said very disparaging things about the Bible, Christianity, Christians, etc., such as:

"Therefore, so far as the uninspired translators and the people are concerned, no part of the Bible can, with certainty, be known by them to be the word of God. ... The Hebrew and Greek m****cripts of the Bible from which translations have been made, are evidently very much corrupted, as appears from the fact, that scarcely any two copies are alike in any chapter or verse. ... This uncertainty, combined with the imperfections of uninspired translations, renders the Bibles of all languages, at the present day, emphatically the words of men, instead of the pure words of God." - Pratt, Spiritual Gifts, pages 70-71

The notion that their imposter Jesus' atonement somehow helps them overcome sin, in the same way that the Biblical Jesus overcomes sin, is purely deceptive. The Mormon Jesus is simply NOT the Christian Jesus nor the Jesus "detailed" in the Bible, nor does his sacrifice pay for your sins, as does that of the Christian Jesus.

Mormons should also note that the belief in any "Jesus" other than the true Jesus of the Bible, is idol worship. THIS ARTICLE (https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/01/the-restoration-of-major-doctrines-through-joseph-smith-the-godhead-mankind-and-the-creation?lang=eng) from LDS.org proves undeniably that the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are two entirely different en***ies.

The Mormon Jesus' "atonement" does not actually "atone" for sin, It merely raises all of mankind from the dead, and according to the Book of Mormon, all who rise, remain in whatever state of sin they were in at the time of death. (See Moroni 10:32; Alma 11:37, 42:29,30, 34:32; D&C 58:42,43). The Mormon is responsible for "atoning" for his/her own sin, be becoming completely sinless in this lifetime, forsaking even the desire to sin. Which is simply impossible, and which Mormon leaders admit.

Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth LDS president, plainly stated:

We are not going to be saved in the kingdom of God just because our names are on the records of the Church…. There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there…. If we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well (Doctrines of Salvation 2:14—15).

Those aren't very good odds.

According to Apostle George Q. Cannon, Mormons:

will be held to stricter accountability than any other people on the face of the earth…. We must be a pure people or we will be scourged; we must be a holy people or God’s anger will be kindled against us (Gospel Truth, p. 74).

By STARK contrast we note that the Christian Jesus' Sacrifice on the Cross, does indeed atone for all sin of the believer, thereby saving completely (not to be snatched from His hand - john 10:29) those who have faith in His sacrifice rather than their own good works.

John 3:16 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm)For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-17.htm)For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-18.htm)He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-19.htm)This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-20.htm)For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21 (http://biblehub.com/john/3-21.htm)But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."

Due to Forum character count restrictions, see the rest of my comments in my next post...

[Berean]

Continued...

2. The Book of Mormon teaches many of the same doctrines that the Bible teaches: There is only One God, He is Spirit, Manifest in the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and that salvation comes by having faith in Jesus Christ alone.

But there is no historical or archeological evidence whatsoever to support the wild claims made by and of the Book of Mormon, and consequently there is no reason whatsoever to believe it is anything more than fiction, therefore negating the notion that the Book of Mormon can be considered "continuing revelation." The Bible is very clear that it is a complete and sufficient record of the "Good News" of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the requirements of the Law "once for all" and then sat down at the Right Hand of the Father.

3. These two statements, in conjunction with each other, actually contradict themselves. As outlined above in my critique of alleged misconception #1,

Mormon "grace" only intends to raise one from the dead, which evidently Mormons consider as being "saved." But in reality they are still in their sin, and therefore still doomed. They were responsible for overcoming their own sin prior to death, or they will be sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire should they fail:

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

For total salvation to take place, one must be worthy of the Celestial kingdom, having kept themselves from sinning. The Celestial Kingdom is the only kingdom in which Mormons are truly "saved." But this reward essentially escapes all of them, since Mormons also believe in the depravity of mankind, there is no hope for anything other than ****ation in the lake of fire for eternity for Mormons unless they turn from their idol worship and instead have faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Then and only then may they know the only true and complete salvation -- redemption from and forgiveness of their sin.

Bruce R. McConkie said:

"Accordingly, I shall now set forth some of the principles of sacrifice and consecration to which the true saints must conform if they are ever to go where God and Christ are and have an inheritance with the faithful saints of ages past.

It is written: “He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.” (D&C 88:22.) The law of sacrifice is a celestial law; so also is the law of consecration. Thus to gain that celestial reward which we so devoutly desire, we must be able to live these two laws.

Sacrifice and consecration are inseparably intertwined. The law of consecration is that we consecrate our time, our talents, and our money and property to the cause of the Church: such are to be available to the extent they are needed to further the Lord’s interests on earth.

The law of sacrifice is that we are willing to sacrifice all that we have for the truth’s sake—our character and reputation; our honor and applause; our good name among men; our houses, lands, and families: all things, even our very lives if need be."

Joseph Smith said, “A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary [to lead] unto life and salvation.” (Lectures on Faith, p. 58.)

Mormon leaders are very much like the Pharisees of Jesus' time. Matt 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. 5But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, 6and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. 8But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.

By STARK contrast, Jesus said: "Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart; and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt 11:28-30)

4. While most Mormons don't practice polygamy today, some Fundamentalist Mormon sects and many tens of thousands still do. Many Mormons admit they believe in polygamy but don't practice it because of the Woodruff Manifesto now known as Official Declaration-1 at the end of the D. & C. But, many of those same LDS men are sealed for all eternity to two or more wives in LDS temple rites, as described by Apostle John Widtsoe who wrote:

"Several approaches to eternal marriage may be made: Two living persons may be sealed to each other for time and eternity. A living man may be sealed for eternity to a dead woman; or a living woman to a dead man. Two dead persons may be sealed to each other. It is also possible, though the church does not now permit it, to seal two living people for eternity only, with no ***ociation on earth... Further, under divine command to the Prophet Joseph Smith, it was possible for one man to be sealed to more than one woman for time and for eternity. Thus, came plural marriage among the Latter-day Saints" (E. & R., p. 340).

5. These are more widely held Mormon myths, which run along the same lines of thinking which dubiously grant Mormons the ***le of "Christian." The Mormon Church uses the same ***les as those given to members of the Church which Christ built, but in the Mormon Church they describe entirely different Church offices and duties.

I would also argue that Smith was certainly held in such high esteem, that belief in Smith himself is most certainly a necessary requirement for salvation in the Mormon world. Not to mention, don't all "exalted" Mormons become "gods?"

President Harold B. Lee quoted LDS Prophet Heber J. Grant, saying, "Brethren, keep your eye on the President of this church. If he tells you to do anything and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. But you don't need to worry: the Lord will never let His mouthpiece lead this people astray" (Ensign, October, 1972, p. 7).

In his own words Smith said:

“God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363/History of the Church, 6:319-20)

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter‑day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go."
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409

Interesting enough, God killed Joseph Smith a month later, so this prophecy was perhaps the only one Smith made which came true. And, it was self-fulfilling.

If any man preach any other Gospel than that which I have preached, he shall be cursed.
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, volume 6, page 365; Joseph Smith, Jr, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 366

O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart. Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 10:6

And in closing, here's a corker:

The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead...They without us cannot be made perfect.
Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 5:616; Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 147; History of the Church 6:313

Satan could not have said it better.

Bottom line... Mormonism is not a Christian religion. It is a cult of Christianity which seeks to usurp literally every tenet of the Christian religion. And the questions you should be asking is if you, as a Mormon, are living up to the doctrines of your own religion. Once you've cleaned up your own back yard, then you can come looking in ours.

[Berean]

There might not be any condemnation for true Christians--but true Christians will have the works. What is it about Paul's testimony you don't believe?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

There are numerous people who claim to be Christians that are no different from those who are in the world--and very much a part of it.

There are those who claim to be Christians who are part of every thing Paul lists here:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Christians who believe it is by faith alone one is saved--and then do the works of the devil--will find in the day of judgment they will be exposed for just what they are, IE--adulterers, fornicators, murderers, drunkards, etc.

They will see, and know--in that day--professing Christ, and then denying Him in their works--was just something they could only fool themselves about during their mortal existence.

Nonsense.

Unlike some, we believe ALL of Paul's words. Not just the ones that can be taken out of context to seemingly prove a false Mormon doctrine.

You admitted on another forum (no, not the one that champions christian free speech, the other one.. that coddles Mormon trolls), that you believe the Bible is corrupt and not reliable and your intention is to take God's Words out of context and turn them around so as to use them as a club to mock Christians, even though you know the argument is false.

In reality, and in context, Paul's words clearly expose your argument as folly.

Romans 4:1-7 World English Bible "What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works,

7"Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin."

And there is no contradiction between Corinthians, Galatians and Romans. In context they all teach the same doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, plus nothing. If our works are necessary, as Mormons teach, then Christ's Sacrifice is insufficient. But the Scriptures insist that it is sufficient and complete. All men who turn to Christ in faith, relying on His Work on the Cross rather than our own works, (which are NOT sufficient) are saved.

It's as simple as that.

The Book of Mormon teaches the same thing, but Mormons don't follow the teachings of the "most correct book on earth."

It's obvious that you are taking Paul's words out of context and using them to promote the false Mormon narrative that having faith and allowing Christ's Atoning Work on the Cross to pay the penalty for our sins, rather than relying on one's own works, is somehow not Biblical. Frankly, the opposite is true, as we can plainly see above and all throughout the Scriptures.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThere might not be any condemnation for true Christians--but true Christians will have the works. What is it about Paul's testimony you don't believe?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

There are numerous people who claim to be Christians that are no different from those who are in the world--and very much a part of it.

There are those who claim to be Christians who are part of every thing Paul lists here:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Christians who believe it is by faith alone one is saved--and then do the works of the devil--will find in the day of judgment they will be exposed for just what they are, IE--adulterers, fornicators, murderers, drunkards, etc.

They will see, and know--in that day--professing Christ, and then denying Him in their works--was just something they could only fool themselves about during their mortal existence.


Nonsense. Unlike some, we believe ALL of Paul's words. Not just the ones that can be taken out of context to seemingly prove a false Mormon doctrine.

IOW--you believe Paul's testimony--until it testifies against you--and then it's "out of context"?

Why don't you address the above scriptures?


You admitted on another forum (no, not the one that champions christian free speech, the other one.. that coddles Mormon trolls), that you believe the Bible is corrupt and not reliable and your intention is to take God's Words out of context and turn them around so as to use them as a club to mock Christians, even though you know the argument is false.

Cite, please. I challenge anyone to produce anything that even hints I have ever stated that.

I'm not the one who states the scriptures are out of context.

[hogan60]

IOW--you believe Paul's testimony--until it testifies against you--and then it's "out of context"?

Why don't you address the above scriptures?



Cite, please. I challenge anyone to produce anything that even hints I have ever stated that.

I'm not the one who states the scriptures are out of context.

Hi dberrie, If works and obedience to the law is necessary for salvation, then can you explain why Jesus called the pharisees brood of vipers, hypocrites, white washed tombs, etc? The Pharisees were very religious and great law keepers. Why didn't Jesus ever praise them for their obedience?

[dberrie2000]

Hi dberrie, If works and obedience to the law is necessary for salvation, then can you explain why Jesus called the pharisees brood of vipers, hypocrites, white washed tombs, etc? The Pharisees were very religious and great law keepers. Why didn't Jesus ever praise them for their obedience?

Hi Hogan:

Because the Jews of the OT were not obedient. Where do we find Jesus praising the OT Jews as great law keepers?

Matthew 5:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' charge against the Jews was they professed one thing--and did another. They were hypocrites. Since when are hypocrites great law keepers?

[Christian]

Hi Hogan:

Because the Jews of the OT were not obedient. Where do we find Jesus praising the OT Jews as great law keepers?

Matthew 5:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' charge against the Jews was they professed one thing--and did another. They were hypocrites. Since when are hypocrites great law keepers?

AND YOU are a h................?

Do YOUR works show YOU to be any better than the scribes and pharisees?

OR

Will you be going to that 'hot place?' :rolleyes:

[dberrie2000]

AND YOU are a h................?

Do YOUR works show YOU to be any better than the scribes and pharisees?

OR

Will you be going to that 'hot place?' :rolleyes:

Hi Christian:

I'll place that in the hands of Christ--as He will be the final judge.

Could you explain for us how my obedience affects what the scriptures bear testimony to?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Christian--could you explain how that fits into faith alone theology?-- as it fits the LDS theology well.

Could you post for us what you find in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--which is not found in the LDS church?

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

[dberrie2000]

Hi Christian:

I'll place that in the hands of Christ--as He will be the final judge.

Could you explain for us how my obedience affects what the scriptures bear testimony to?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Christian--could you explain how that fits into faith alone theology?-- as it fits the LDS theology well.

Could you post for us what you find in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--which is not found in the LDS church?

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Anyone care to engage this concern?

[Christian]

berry posted:

Hi Christian:


Originally Posted by Christian http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171460#post171460)
AND YOU are a h................?

Do YOUR works show YOU to be any better than the scribes and pharisees?

OR

Will you be going to that 'hot place?' :rolleyes:


I'll place that in the hands of Christ--as He will be the final judge.

WHICH Christ? The imaginary 'spirit-brother-of-satan-christ?' OR the BIBLICAL Jesus that YOUR MANMADE RELIGION invented?

Could you explain for us how my obedience affects what the scriptures bear testimony to?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Christian--could you explain how that fits into faith alone theology?-- as it fits the LDS theology well.

Could you post for us what you find in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--which is not found in the LDS church?

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.[/QUOTE]

We've SHOWN YOU THE ERROR OF YOUR 'private interpretation' many times. I won't waste my time doing it again. You can't understand the TRUTH anyway.

[dberrie2000]

Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Christian:

I'll place that in the hands of Christ--as He will be the final judge.

Could you explain for us how my obedience affects what the scriptures bear testimony to?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Christian--could you explain how that fits into faith alone theology?-- as it fits the LDS theology well.

Could you post for us what you find in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--which is not found in the LDS church?

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


We've SHOWN YOU THE ERROR OF YOUR 'private interpretation' many times. I won't waste my time doing it again. You can't understand the TRUTH anyway.

I was thinking the above scriptures were the truth. If they are--how do you fit them into faith alone theology?

It fits the LDS theology just fine.

John 14:15---King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.