Witnesses recanted?

[dberrie2000]

here is something that shows what I feel about the BOM and its supporters.

"Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.

I thought this to be an interesting claim--would anyone like to present any evidence which would have the witnesses themselves denying their testimony given in the "Three witnesses" or the "Eight witnesses" account?



Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[DrDavidT]

siiiiggggghhhhh!!!!!!! the same post over and over even after it was shown to be weak and not as true as he OP would like

[alanmolstad]

siiiiggggghhhhh!!!!!!! the same post over and over even after it was shown to be weak and not as true as he OP would like

I see others have noticed that we seem to have a guest that is caught in a loop of simply copy/pasting the same stuff over and over.....

Let us hope that the person can work themselves out of the hole they are digging for themselves.
We do have a rule that talks about this type pf spamming of the forum with the same stuff,,,,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post here is something that shows what I feel about the BOM and its supporters.

"Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.


I thought this to be an interesting claim--would anyone like to present any evidence which would have the witnesses themselves denying their testimony given in the "Three witnesses" or the

"Eight witnesses" account?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


I see others have noticed that we seem to have a guest that is caught in a loop of simply copy/pasting the same stuff over and over.....

Let us hope that the person can work themselves out of the hole they are digging for themselves.
We do have a rule that talks about this type pf spamming of the forum with the same stuff,,,,

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?

[alanmolstad]

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[alanmolstad]

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes".

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[dberrie2000]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Alan--please allow me to print a statement made concerning the above reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

So--where does that leave your testimony?


"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."

How do you answer to that contradiction?

[alanmolstad]

"David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887 "

[alanmolstad]

"During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213) "

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p482 "http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)"

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59) "

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[dberrie2000]

"Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)"

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Alan--I've started a new thread for us ***led "false witness?"

[alanmolstad]

Oliver Cowdery was publicly charged by Joseph Smith and leading Mormons with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, adultery, and being the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree!"(Senate Document 189, Feb. 15, 1841, pp. 6-9 and Comprehensive History of the Church, B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439)

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Conclusion:

Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Conclusion:

Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?


When I say something...it's not because I dreamed it up.

Its not because its my idea...

Its not because I wanted something to be true so invented the idea to support it.




Rather, when I post something on this forum , its because I learned this from Walter Martin, or from former Mormons, or from my history of research into the topic.
None of this is my own ideas.
None of this is my "accusation"

Now I dont get much involved in you guy's little debates back and forth on issues concerning the Mormon church and it's history.
I really dont think the topic of the "Mormons" is very much fun to spend endless hours posting on, thus I dont much post on any of your guy's topics.

I mostly just chime-in when I see a post that is actually of some type of interest to me....the history of Smith and his bed-hoppin is always an attention getter around here...as is Smith's dealing with the magic rocks, and his "hat trick" etc ... :)

My ***ociation with the history of the Book Of Mormon witnesses topic is due mostly to a young man I ran into while I was at church one day.
I happened to be sitting next to him , and in our small talk he spoke about talking to two Mormons at the door, and their newer Bible that they carried.

That is the point where I was inspired to show the young man what I had read about the things the two Mormon guys at the door did not tell him about these so-called witnesses to the BOM>

I will always remember how at first he simply could not believe what I was telling him.
At first he had the idea that i was making this all up.
Then next he felt that the source I was quoting had to be making this stuff up.

Then he felt that there must be some type of explanation that the Mormons have that renders all this stuff i was saying as moot?

Only after he had started to read some of the history himself did it start to make an impact on him as to how much the Book Of Mormon's eye witness support is "Not worth squat".....




After that whole experience I have helped a few other people over the years learn the truth about the BOM true history .
Mostly I just put the information out there and if the person is interested, it can help them get started on their own search for the truth.

[dberrie2000]

[B][I][SIZE=4]Conclusion:

Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial.

Cite, please.

You got caught in the windmill:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Alan--please allow me to print a statement made concerning the above reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

So--where does that leave your testimony?

[DrDavidT]

I see others have noticed that we seem to have a guest that is caught in a loop of simply copy/pasting the same stuff over and over.....

Let us hope that the person can work themselves out of the hole they are digging for themselves.
We do have a rule that talks about this type pf spamming of the forum with the same stuff,,,,

Can we get past this repe***ive posting of the same information please. it is annoying, and doe snot improve any discussion

[alanmolstad]

Can we get past this repe***ive posting of the same information please. it is annoying, and doe snot improve any discussion

the way it works around here is that when we start to see that one of the guests is posting in a manner that might be against the rules, or shows bad manners, etc...is that we first try to speak to the person and point them in the right direction...

Ok, that has totally failed in this instance... :)


next, when a person is simply not taking the advice of others on how to avoid problems, is that we confront the person a bit more openly...

Ok, I tried that, still had zero results ... :)

At this point, what we say is that, "If it happens again ___"



What we are aiming for is for the person in question to slightly adjust their posting style, and be more in conformity with the listed rules, so that we dont need to bump this up to the "next Level" of reporting....for at that point things can go to the place where people have to find new websites to play at...

and while I dont really follow the Mormons discussions, and really dont care who wins debates or who scores points...I do kinda feel that the loss of a guest on a forum that is so empty of new posts is a reflection on my not being able to impress on each guest how this place can be a lot of fun if people would only stick to the rules that they actually gave their word already that they would follow...

[DrDavidT]

okay I leave it in your hands

[alanmolstad]

I sent a PM....thats about the most I can go in attempting to help anyone stay out of trouble.

There is a rule against posting the same stuff all the time..

[dberrie2000]

I sent a PM....thats about the most I can go in attempting to help anyone stay out of trouble.

I believe the trouble started when you made the statement you have yet to reconcile:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Alan--the very quote in your pasted source states this:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

Could you reconcile that for us?

[alanmolstad]

I believe the trouble started when you made the statement you have yet to reconcile:



Alan--the very quote in your pasted source states this:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

Could you reconcile that for us?

Yes, the wittiness for the Book of Mormon are totally worthless.
You cant trust people like this at all.

You read stories where they got into all kinds of stuff...
You had them pointiong fingers, you had others pointing fingers at them...just a total mess.

You cant trust any of these people,,,,,they all seem into it for personal gain of some type or anopther..Smith was clearly into all this Mormon stuff as a means to bed young girls.
Going from bed to bed he abused his most trusted followers.

men that tried to stop Smith, even some who would claim to have believed in the Golden Plates, spoke out on Smith's bed hopping.

Even the very reason Smith got in trouble with the law, was in that jail, and was finally shot was due to Smith being unable to stop "Mr Zipper" from being incharge of his personal life....the guy was clearly a sex addict....

He needed being arrested...


Now no one should be all kinds of "happy" that the guy is shot, but lets face facts, the law in that area was failing the people...I mean Smith was in jail and yet got a gun?

Thats a sign that the people in the area had a justified reason to take action...when people under arrest are able to get guns and kill others attempting to keep them from escaping...its time to stand up to that type of lawlessness and evil.

and....lets face the fact that after Smith was shot he was therefore unable to sexually abuse other young girls as he had been doing and getting away with.


Some people just need shooting it seems....

[dberrie2000]

Yes, the wittiness for the Book of Mormon are totally worthless.
You cant trust people like this at all.

You read stories where they got into all kinds of stuff...
You had them pointiong fingers, you had others pointing fingers at them...just a total mess.

Alan--to be sure--the people who I can't trust are those who make statements which they cannot back up with the truth.

Again--how do you reconcile your statement with the source you gave?

I believe that is where you might want to start.

[alanmolstad]

Alan--to be sure--the people who I can't trust are those who make statements which they cannot back up with the truth.

.

You mean, like Smith?...LOL

[alanmolstad]

well...lets just think back to a few of the things I have said about Smith and see if what I was saying is correctly quoted from the historical material shall we?

For example, a nice place to start is that i have said that Smith once offered a girl $5 bucks to let him join her in bed.

Thats what i have openly stated I have found listed in the historical records.
Thats Smith first tried to convince a young girl to sex him up by his normal sepal, ,,,I bet it went something like his standard line - "God has given you to me as wife", etc.

But that did not work on this young girl, so he tried other ways to get her to sleep with him, and then finally he offered her money....$5 bucks is what the historical record states he offered the little girl.

Now what we have to know now is ,m have I correctly quoted the historical record of this event that I have located ?

Do you wish me to do a google search for "Mormon - Smith - offers - $5 dollars - for sex - with - girl"?






Just let me know if you have a doubt about my correctly quoting the record?

[dberrie2000]

Just let me know if you have a doubt about my correctly quoting the record?

I believe I already have:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

How do you collate that with the statement found in the source you gave above?

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

[alanmolstad]

I believe I already have:



How do you collate that with the statement found in the source you gave above?
]"

Did I misquote a source?

Lets find out!



Now first, what was the source I quote?.....
The answer is- http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm




Ok...so I have a quote, and i have listed the source of my quotation.

The NEXT question we should answer is - "What is the quote?"




Here is the part of the linked information that quoted from.

"Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.
Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.
Only the deluded could possibly believe the outrageous fairytale called Mormonism.




Now what sentence did I quote?.... "All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."





So lets review:
I quoted a source.
I provided the reader with the address of where the quote was taken from.


Now the only last question I have to deal with is - "Did I use the linked quotation in the correct context?"

I believe strong;ly that I have used the linked quotation in the context given us by the writer.
To confirm this all a person needs to do is spend a moment or two and read the rest of the information that the link provides.
I dont think there is any question about it, I have used the quotation ion its correct context.



But someone might ask me, "But Alan, the Mormon who read your quotation does not believe that what it says is true"

My answer is, "You can lead a horse to water...."
I dont worry that a Mormon does not believe that the Mormon founder Jo Smith was a sexual pervert.
You can only speak to them, and then let the Holy Spirit do the rest.



So in other words, I dont hope to convince anyone of anything...I only share the things that I have found of interest to me in my story of thie issue.


Building on this then...one only has to dig a little to find things that build on our understanding of the Mormon so called "Witnesses" to see just how easy it is to call into question such people and what they claim and what others today claim about them.

http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses
" The evidence is extremely contradictory in this area, but there is a possibility that the three witnesses saw the plates in vision only, for Stephen Burnett in a letter written in 1838, a few weeks after the event, described Martin Harris’ testimony to this effect: ‘When I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David . . . the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations.’”


How about some more quotes?



Ok, here is another-
“Burnett reported Harris saying that he had ‘hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain.’ Nonetheless, Harris said he believed the Book of Mormon to be true. In the revelation given the three witnesses before they viewed the plates they were told, ‘it is by your faith that you shall view them’ and ‘ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith Jr. has seen them, for it is by my power that he has seen them.’ There is testimony from several independent interviewers, all non-Mormon, that Martin Harris and David Whitmer said they saw the plates with their ‘spiritual eyes’ only. Among others, A. Metcalf and John Gilbert, as well as Reuben P. Harmon and Jesse Townsend, gave testimonies to this effect. This is contradicted, however, by statements like that of David Whitmer in the Saints Herald in 1882, ‘these hands handled the plates, these eyes saw the angel.’ But Z. H. Gurley elicited from Whitmer a not so positive response to the question, ‘did you touch them?’ His answer was, ‘We did not touch nor handle the plates.’” (Dialogue, Vol.7, No.4, pp.83-84).




More?....

Several LDS sources give the eleven men who bore their testimony to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon the special ***le of eyewitness; however, it appears doubtful that any of them actually saw the plates apart from a supernatural and subjective experience

[dberrie2000]

Did I misquote a source?

Lets find out!

Now first, what was the source I quote?.....

The answer is- http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Ok...so I have a quote, and i have listed the source of my quotation.

The NEXT question we should answer is - "What is the quote?"

Alan--please refer to post #5--you will find this:


Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Here is a quote from that source:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

[alanmolstad]

dberrie2000
The post above is gibberish to me...

If you want me to try to understand something, Dont post something that contains links and quotes from different people , and different colors....because in the end your point can't be understood and is just gibberish.

This is the same issue I had with another guest here, who would post comments that were just a mess of links and quotes, and colors,. taken from all over...sometimes he would post a quote that was just a quote itself of a link to some other topic...???


i dont even bother with such ...




Also, remember one thing about me....

Alan does not make this stuff up!

I dont make any stuff up , when I post on a topic it is because that information is what I have gotten from a source.
Most all the time on any Mormon topic , if I post a quote taken from a source...and I will always post the web address so that people can check to make sure I have quoted the source correctly.

I dont care if you disagree with the source.

But I always try to post the sources i quote.


If Im quoting a link, then go to the link and read it for yourself to see if I have quoted it correctly?

If Im quoting from a link and you go to the link but just disagree with it?..then google it ...(Google is your friend_) and do some research on the question for yourself....because i dont care what you believe or do not believe.


But DONT post a comment that contains a mess of different quotes, and different links, and different colors!

, as i just take one look at that and shake my head...I dont even pretend to read such comments on the forum.

[alanmolstad]

now as far as the witnesses to the Book of Mormon go, I dont actually believe any of them saw squat!

and I find the story of the 3-witnesses to be just rather funny...

"Praying to see the gold plates out in the woods seems rather odd. After all, Smith had already commenced translating the plates. "
http://www.mrm.org/eleven-witnesses




Kinda comical to say you had to go out into the woods to catch a glimpse of something you had already on a dresser at home.

and very silly to think that anyone is going to take you serious when you claim you saw something in a vision, that that counts, when you also have a guy claim he has the same thing at home....



So while I doubt the whole story about going out in the woods by any of these guys, I also admit its a story that would make a great SNL comedy sketch. :)

[alanmolstad]

one interesting thing I read is the following sentence

"“Burnett reported Harris saying that he had ‘hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain.’



anyone want to guess what the phrase , "Only as he saw a city though a mountain" means?.....

as close as I can get to understanding what this phrase means via my own personal translation would be that the modern wording is more like - ..."I saw them, sorta...I mean not with my eyes as though they were real, but rather I pretended to see them"

[alanmolstad]

Lets move on to more quotes and see what they are showing us about the so-called BOM witnesses...


"Mormon apologists like Milton Backman point to Whitmer’s steadfast insistence in his printed testimony and somehow sees this as a validation for actual, physical plates:

“Although there is no reliable evidence that David Whitmer repudiated his testimony as published in the Book of Mormon, a few interviewers ***umed that he was contradicting his published declaration when he told them that he saw the plates with his spiritual rather than his natural eyes. Explaining what he meant by this statement, David Whitmer wrote in 1887:

“Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris . . . called it ‘being in vision’. . . .A bright light enveloped us where we were . . . and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration, pp.138-139. Ellipses his).

All this really proves is that Whitmer equated a “spiritual view” as being as natural to him “as it is at any time.” Language that equates things that are “natural” with things seen in a vision should caution any thoughtful person to pause before ***uming that any of the witnesses saw physical plates





What I get from the above quote is that these guys started to back-track from the story, and that they started to try to mix the concept of seeing things only in a spiritual "vision" with seeing things for real.

so that is why we read at first things that sound a lot like what a little kid says when he gets caught telling a lie and starts back-tracking away from the lie......like "Oh yes I saw them for real" and then later, "Yes I saw them for real, if you mean by "real" you only mean via a special vision, that not other people could see, and was based on my "faith" to see it , and not based on my eyes ability to see things right in front of me"





the way the 3 Book Of Mormon witnesses describe seeing the golden plates is the cl***ic real life example of the story of the The Emperor's New Clothes

[dberrie2000]

dberrie2000 The post above is gibberish to me...

If you want me to try to understand something, Dont post something that contains links and quotes from different people , and different colors...

It's gibberish when someone makes a statement that just does not add up, IMO.

You gave this reference, in post #5 of this thread--to substantiate your claim the witnesses recanted their testimonies:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Posthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

But this is a statement found within that reference:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

How do you collate that to your testimony the witness recanted their testimonies?

[dberrie2000]

Lets move on to more quotes and see what they are showing us about the so-called BOM witnesses...

"Mormon apologists like Milton Backman point to Whitmer’s steadfast insistence in his printed testimony and somehow sees this as a validation for actual, physical plates:

“Although there is no reliable evidence that David Whitmer repudiated his testimony as published in the Book of Mormon, a few interviewers ***umed that he was contradicting his published declaration when he told them that he saw the plates with his spiritual rather than his natural eyes. Explaining what he meant by this statement, David Whitmer wrote in 1887:

“Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time. Martin Harris . . . called it ‘being in vision’. . . .A bright light enveloped us where we were . . . and there in a vision, or in the spirit, we saw and heard just as it is stated in my testimony in the Book of Mormon” (Milton V. Backman, Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration, pp.138-139. Ellipses his).

All this really proves is that Whitmer equated a “spiritual view” as being as natural to him “as it is at any time.” Language that equates things that are “natural” with things seen in a vision should caution any thoughtful person to pause before ***uming that any of the witnesses saw physical plates


What I get from the above quote is that these guys started to back-track from the story, and that they started to try to mix the concept of seeing things only in a spiritual "vision" with seeing things for real.

I don't know what you "get" in the above quote--but I get a suspicion one does not understand the nature of what happened in the revealing of the plates to the witnesses.

There were 11 witnesses. Three were shown the plates by a heavenly revelation, in vision, by a heavenly messenger. Of course they saw the plates with their spiritual eyes--as all who have been privy to a heavenly vision have seen the vision. Some of the Book of Revelation was revealed in like manner--that does not mean they did not see real events.

There were also eight witnesses which saw the plates with their own natural eyes--without any heavenly manifestation. How the above article places the eight as those who saw the plates with anything but their natural eyes is beyond me--as they infer they also saw the plates in vision, rather than their natural eyes.(highlighted above in your quote)

The Lord, in His wisdom--gave both a heavenly and a natural manifestation to the plates, and now we know why.

If it was limited to just a physical, natural manifestation--there are those who would say Joseph Smith manufactured the plates, and deceived the eight witness--hence--the heavenly witness included also.

If it was just a heavenly witness--there would be those who would postulate they did not see the plates with their natural eyes, hence, no real physical witness.

The fact there was both a physical, and a heavenly witness--covers both sides of the argument. IMO--we are left without a viable argument against the existence of the plates.

[alanmolstad]

I dont buy any of that....





But rather this is what I think is more than clearly the case about Smith and his book.


Its fake.

The whole story he came up with.....totally F-A-K-E.

The so-called witnesses are all fake too.

The 3 guys in the woods were there to just look good and be part of the big 'secret" but when it did not happen (because Smith was just faking it all the time), what the 3 guys did is say, things like "Er, yes, Um, yes, I see it too,,,,sure Smith I see it , .....its right there in the hands of the big pink rabbit"




Thats why later we read the reports of the guys hedging their so-called eye witness account with wordings that back away from seeing real things, to see things with their eye of faith.....

In other words.....they pretended.



I think that Smith never saw an angels,,,ever.

No angel in the woods with the 3 guys...
No angel talking about hidden books..

No revelations....nothing ......nothing ever about it being ok to start nailing the wives of your friends.

I think that the book of Mormon is rip-off of some other guy's ideas in a different book.

I think that Smith was a flim-flam man, who had a well known history of talking people out of their money in hope of getting a treasure.

I think that Smith was a sexual pervert, that went from bed to bed by using his lies and his position to come sniffing around young girls bedrooms late at night.




I do think that we see that from time to time, people in his religion started to see Smith for what he was, and tried to stand up to him, but by then it was too late and Smith had been able to surround himself like David Koresh with true believers that would rather die in the act of killing others than admit the truth.

I believe Smith paid the price for thinking only with "Mr Zipper"
and that he arrest, his being tarred and feathered and later being shot dead were all due to Smith being unable to keep it in his pants.

[alanmolstad]

It's gibberish when someone makes a statement that just does not add up, IMO.

You gave this reference, in post #5 of this thread--to substantiate your claim the witnesses recanted their testimonies:



But this is a statement found within that reference:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

How do you collate that to your testimony the witness recanted their testimonies?

read the link, the information is all there about what a joke-foundation of the Book Of Mormon stands on..

....

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

It's gibberish when someone makes a statement that just does not add up, IMO.

You gave this reference, in post #5 of this thread--to substantiate your claim the witnesses recanted their testimonies:



But this is a statement found within that reference:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

How do you collate that to your testimony the witness recanted their testimonies?

read the link, the information is all there about what a joke-foundation of the Book Of Mormon stands on..

....

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Another significant historical point regarding the eight witnesses comes from a letter dated April 15, 1838. It was written by a former Mormon leader named Stephen Burnett. In that letter, Burnett told how he heard Martin Harris state in public that Harris never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination, and the same was true for Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. Martin Harris went on to say that the eight witnesses never actually saw the plates either, and therefore, were hesitant to sign the statement, but were persuaded to do so

http://www.exmormon.org/d6/drupal/file9

[alanmolstad]

there were not 3 witnesses to the Book of Mormon

there were not another 8 as well..

There was not a discovery of any plates by Smith.



Its all Fake!

[dberrie2000]

there were not 3 witnesses to the Book of Mormon

there were not another 8 as well..

There was not a discovery of any plates by Smith.

Its all Fake!

Taint so! arguments are neither convincing nor compelling.

What is compelling evidence has already been established:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[dberrie2000]

read the link, the information is all there about what a joke-foundation of the Book Of Mormon stands on..

.http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

That was not the link you gave in post 5--this was:


Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

That link gave the following information:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

[alanmolstad]

John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses



LOL....

In other words...."F-A-K-E!"

[alanmolstad]

"In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination."




once again....the word is what?....


"F-A-K-E!"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[alanmolstad]

A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[alanmolstad]

After Smith's death, James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic



So there seems to be no trick in getting the Mormon witnesses to believe anything...LOL

Thius ends the idea that the witnesses can be used to support anything. :)

[alanmolstad]

After Smith's death, James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic



So there seems to be no trick in getting the Mormon witnesses to believe anything...LOL

Thius ends the idea that the witnesses can be used to support anything. :)

[alanmolstad]

you see that's the thing..

If you only have a few witnesses and they can be talked into supporting anything, you actually cant use them to support anything...


case-closed



whereever you go, whatever you read, what you learn about the Mormon witnesses casts doubt on anything that say...

The 3 guys are a joke in their story, as that was fake from the start...

The rest alive at the end were just as happy supporting other plates as they were Smith's...so their word is moot.



whats are you left with?...nothing.


There is truly nothing left to use as a way to support Smith's lies.







I find it funny....I mean if you got a religion that hangs everything they believe on the word of so few people...you got to find it very "interesting" just how many of these people would later turn on Smith or he against them?


what a joke of a religion to be based on such things...

[alanmolstad]

Contrary to what the Book of Mormon states, Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1:137-138 tells us the original three witnesses never held or saw the plates or transcripts in person.

http://lifeafter.org/book-of-mormon-witnesses/

[alanmolstad]

Journal of Discourses 7:164; “Some of the Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel.” – Brigham Young, Salt Lake City, June 5, 1859

[alanmolstad]

David Whitmer said; “If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon, if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints

http://lifeafter.org/book-of-mormon-witnesses/

[alanmolstad]

Oliver Cowdery...........Excommunicated April 12, 1838

[alanmolstad]

David Whitmer........Excommunicated April 13, 1838

[alanmolstad]

Martin Harris........Ex-communicated December 1837

[alanmolstad]

Christian Whitmer.....Died before family was excommunicated

[alanmolstad]

Peter Whitmer, Jr......Died before family was excommunicated

[alanmolstad]

Jacob Whitmer.....Baptized into John Whitmer’s new church in December 1847

[alanmolstad]

John Whitmer.....Formed new Church of Christ with McLellin in September 1847

[alanmolstad]

Hiram Page.....Left church when Whitmer’s were excommunicated in 1838

Became high priest in David Whitmer’s new church 9/1847

[alanmolstad]

How can anyone take the Mormon religion seriously?

I look at this list of their support for this religion and all I see is a joke.

Their founder even gets himself shot for sleeping around on his wife...Its a sad, sad day when people defend this type of truly regrettable stuff...

[dberrie2000]

John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

LOL....

In other words...."F-A-K-E!"

Could you give us any reference where any witness claimed their testimony was fake?

As the source you quoted stated:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

[dberrie2000]

Could you give us any reference where any witness claimed their testimony was fake?

As the source you quoted stated:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

I offer this opportunity again--is there anyone here which could provide us any quote--where the witnesses themselves recanted their testimony concerning the witness of the golden plates?

I'm still waiting for someone to give us a cite on where we find the witnesses themselves recanting their testimonies.