Where are the verses? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

dberrie2000

02-28-2017, 06:23 PM

I have made several posts asking dberrie to place on the board any bible verse that has Jesus teaching that lucifer is his brother, god is a being who needs help, to wear magic underwear, to hold secret ceremonies, and other key mormon doctrine but so far he has ignored all those requests.

I thought it would be wise to place the request in one thread so he could find it easier and place all of them in one spot so everyone can see this teaching. Of course any mormon is free to post such scripture, this isn't limited to dberrie

Let's start with the secret manna:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Now--could you tell us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Bible?

DrDavidT

02-28-2017, 06:24 PM

Let's start with the secret manna:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Now--could you tell us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Bible?

sorry but this is a thread about bible verses supporting mormon teaching. that verse does not support mormon practices of giving a new name to people. for it does not teach that the church is to do that but that Jesus will do it.

so you are 0 for 1

dberrie2000

02-28-2017, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Let's start with the secret manna:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Now--could you tell us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Bible?

sorry but this is a thread about bible verses supporting mormon teaching. that verse does not support mormon practices of giving a new name to people.

It supports giving a new name which is not known to anyone but themselves--- to God's elect. All LDS who have been through the Temple Endowment have received their new names--which no man knoweth saving him that receiveth it.

Now--where do we find the term "faith alone" in the Bible?

DrDavidT

03-01-2017, 06:33 PM

It supports giving a new name which is not known to anyone but themselves--- to God's elect. All LDS who have been through the Temple Endowment have received their new names--which no man knoweth saving him that receiveth it.

Now--where do we find the term "faith alone" in the Bible?

No they don't. As I said there is no instruction for the church to do that.

this is a thread for you to post the scriptures I have requested

DrDavidT

03-01-2017, 06:44 PM

i will ask for more verses when i think of more mormon ideology that needs scriptural support.

alanmolstad

03-01-2017, 08:31 PM

i will ask for more verses when i think of more mormon ideology that needs scriptural support.

good one David... :)

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

It supports giving a new name which is not known to anyone but themselves--- to God's elect. All LDS who have been through the Temple Endowment have received their new names--which no man knoweth saving him that receiveth it.

Now--where do we find the term "faith alone" in the Bible?

No they don't.

Hi David:

Taint so!! answers are neither convincing nor compelling. Care to answer to the above scripture--and my posted answer?

Could you please offer us some explanation of why you can't find the term "faith alone" to offer us-- in the Biblical text?

The very post and pillar of your theology--and you can't find it in the Bible?

hogan60

03-02-2017, 04:51 AM

Hi David:

Taint so!! answers are neither convincing nor compelling. Care to answer to the above scripture--and my posted answer?

Could you please offer us some explanation of why you can't find the term "faith alone" to offer us-- in the Biblical text?

The very post and pillar of your theology--and you can't find it in the Bible?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

dberrie, do you see obedience or works being necessary in any of these verses?

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 05:07 AM

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

dberrie, do you see obedience or works being necessary in any of these verses?

Hi Hogan--and a good morning to you:

Since Paul was referring to rituals under the Mosaic Law when he used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--then no, his "works" would not be necessary for salvation.

If one is referring to obedience to the gospel, as works, as James and the others used the term "works"--then yes, that is connected to salvation, IE--

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Here, Paul distinguishes between the "works of the law" and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hogan--could you explain for us how one could avoid the condemnation spoken of here--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

hogan60

03-02-2017, 05:18 AM

Hi Hogan--and a good morning to you:

Since Paul was referring to rituals under the Mosaic Law when he used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--then no, his "works" would not be necessary for salvation.

If one is referring to obedience to the gospel, as works, as James and the others used the term "works"--then yes, that is connected to salvation, IE--

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Here, Paul distinguishes between the "works of the law" and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hogan--could you explain for us how one could avoid the condemnation spoken of here--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If works and obedience are necessary to be saved, then why did Jesus say to those who were religious in Matt 21:3 “the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” ?

Gal 5:19-21 Is talking about unbelievers and their works of the flesh. (sins). Unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God. You left out the verses immediately after where Paul mentions the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Here he speaks of the Believer, the one who is already saved.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 06:01 AM

If works and obedience are necessary to be saved, then why did Jesus say to those who were religious in Matt 21:3 “the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” ?

Because those He addressed were just what He termed them as--hypocrites. IOW--they professed one belief--but did contrary to the law.

Gal 5:19-21 Is talking about unbelievers and their works of the flesh. (sins). Unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That only connects belief and works together.

Paul did not differentiate between the professed believer and the unbeliever, as to who the message was directed to:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW--if there were those in the church, which did those things--they would suffer a like fate the unbelievers do--they would not inherit eternal life. That connects works and salvation, whoever one believes it is directed to.

You left out the verses immediately after where Paul mentions the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Here he speaks of the Believer, the one who is already saved.

Christ addresses the believer, and the unbeliever-- all along.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

alanmolstad

03-02-2017, 06:26 AM

actually.....

what the Bible is telling us is that its pointless to think they your actions keep you saved,.

The bible goes on and on and makes a list of all the things that the unsaved people do...and if you look at that list you will find at some point something that every person in the church is guilty of...LOL

The point is that if you think you are ever going to merit being saved you are as lost as they who have totally rejected the truth.

This is designed to aim the heart of the christian, not at looking at their own works as being worthy , but at the idea of giving up the 'works-salvation": mindset, and taking on the Life of Christ.

This is why when I go to the final judgement, and the book of my life is opened, the only things written there are of the life of Christ that I have been given credit for.

This this is why for any Christian there is
No condemnation".....there is no sins listed...no faults...not even the smallest private thought listed as a charge against us.

Thus when someone points to a Bible verse that lists all the works of the unsaved, you should just smile and say, "Yes, very true, and Im guilty of being on that list, and so are you"

Thats the point God is making by telling us the list...so that we understand that without God's total forgiveness we are lost......

hogan60

03-02-2017, 06:29 AM

Because those He addressed were just what He termed them as--hypocrites. IOW--they professed one belief--but did contrary to the law.

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Matthew 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

Publicans and the harlots, the pariahs of Jewish society, had found salvation, while the self-righteous leaders with all their rules and regulations had not.

So what's the requirement here: faith or works? I don't see works mentioned at all here, but the religious leaders believed works were necessary.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 06:41 AM

actually.....

what the Bible is telling us is that its pointless to think they your actions keep you saved,.

The Biblical record testifies to this truth:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

alanmolstad

03-02-2017, 06:46 AM

But then we come to the point of helping people overcome their sins...

The idea that Paul is talking about is all based on the same idea that jesus talked abpout.

It's not that we Christians dont still sin,,,for Giod knows full well we do and we will continue to sin all our lives.

God knows from the start that each person will never earn their own salvation, nor ever in a million-Billion years ever be able to maintain their own salvation via their own works..

rather what Jesus and paul talk about is 'how' to overcome sins in your life.

When Jesus talks about is to make a decision to separate yourself from the sin in your life.
The "Pluck out your eye that caused you to sin" idea that jesus talks about is very much connected to Paul's idea of "fleeing" sin.

They both are talking about the christian deciding to live a different way....Paul talks about how the Christian is washed and made clean,,,and this shows us that we are already made clean in God's eyes...

This agrees with the words of paul where he talks about putting out the man that is filled with sin,,,to not even eat with him,
Paul was not just talking about some "other guy"...NO!..he was talking about what each of us carry with us in our hearts!

Thats the "other person" we are to put out of the church....its that sinfulness inside each of us that we are to drive out.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 06:46 AM

Matthew 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

Publicans and the harlots, the pariahs of Jewish society, had found salvation, while the self-righteous leaders with all their rules and regulations had not.

Because their leaders were hypocrites--and did not obey Christ.

Matthew 7:19-23--King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 06:49 AM

hogan60

03-02-2017, 07:11 AM

The Biblical record testifies to this truth:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

He that endures till the end is talking about those who survive the Tribulation. See also Matt 24:13. Matthew 24 is known as the Tribulation chapter.

hogan60

03-02-2017, 07:12 AM

Because their leaders were hypocrites--and did not obey Christ.

Matthew 7:19-23--King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The leaders believed in rules and regulations. How does this differ from Mormonism?

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 08:42 AM

He that endures till the end is talking about those who survive the Tribulation. See also Matt 24:13. Matthew 24 is known as the Tribulation chapter.

I don't see anything about the "Tribulation" there--as the faith alone describe it. There are tribulations for all of us--including those whom Jesus was addressing. None will endure this mortal life without tribulations.

Those who endure will be saved:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

dberrie2000

03-02-2017, 08:44 AM

The leaders believed in rules and regulations. How does this differ from Mormonism?

So--did Jesus believe in "rules and regulations"?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Did Abraham?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

DrDavidT

03-02-2017, 05:39 PM

DrDavidT

03-02-2017, 05:42 PM

DBERRIE---- I am still waiting for those scriptures that teach that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, we have to wear special underwear (the wedding garment we can discuss later), that god reproduced spiritual children and needs help giving them a human body (this one seems to make your god very impotent). I get to more later when you respond to these

hogan60

03-03-2017, 03:25 AM

I don't see anything about the "Tribulation" there--as the faith alone describe it. There are tribulations for all of us--including those whom Jesus was addressing. None will endure this mortal life without tribulations.

Those who endure will be saved:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Matthew 24 is about the Tribulation. We can't pull out a verse or p***age such as verse 13: " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," to try and make lds doctrine.

Read the whole chapter. Jesus is answering the disciples questions about the destruction of Jerusalem. They wanted to know when it would be destroyed, and what signs would precede the end of the age. (the gospel would be preached to all nations and they would see the abomination of desolation). After talking about the abomination of desolation, Jesus talks about the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.."

DrDavidT

03-03-2017, 04:55 PM

Matthew 24 is about the Tribulation. We can't pull out a verse or p***age such as verse 13: " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," to try and make lds doctrine.

Read the whole chapter. Jesus is answering the disciples questions about the destruction of Jerusalem. They wanted to know when it would be destroyed, and what signs would precede the end of the age. (the gospel would be preached to all nations and they would see the abomination of desolation). After talking about the abomination of desolation, Jesus talks about the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.."

It is certainly tiring to see a good thread derailed

dberrie2000

03-04-2017, 07:26 PM

Matthew 24 is about the Tribulation. We can't pull out a verse or p***age such as verse 13: " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," to try and make lds doctrine

Hi Hogan:

Matthew 10:22 was not written to make LDS doctrine--it was testified to because it is truth.

That the LDS doctrine matches the Biblical testimony is hardly coincidence:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

What is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--is also found in the LDS church.

Hogan--the faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 05:50 AM

Hi Hogan:

Matthew 10:22 was not written to make LDS doctrine--it was testified to because it is truth.

That the LDS doctrine matches the Biblical testimony is hardly coincidence:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

What is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--is also found in the LDS church.

Hogan--the faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

We were talking about Matthew 24 which is the Tribulation Chapter, but then you switched to Matthew 10:22

Mat 10:22.. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

This verse does not mean it is up to us, in our own strength, to endure to the end of our lives and then hopefully we will have done enough good works to get into Heaven. The truth of this verse is that only those who are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be able to endure all the persecutions and hard times they will face.

dberrie, do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

How will you ever know if you have done enough?

The gospel of the mormon church is an "impossible gospel." The Gospel of Jesus Christ is to believe on Him alone for salvation. Then one's sins, past, present and future are washed by His blood. Christians are expected to produce good fruit throughout their lives as evidence that they are truly Christ's. We do this because we are saved and eternally thankful for the finished work of Christ on the cross. Christ did for us what we cannot do ourselves.

dberrie, for mormons to justify the existence of the Mormon church, they first must present concrete proof that the gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth. That Jesus Christ, the Apostles, Paul and all their followers bumbled, apostatized, utterly failed to keep it going. That God stood by and watched helplessly. The Bible does talk about apostasies but they are always partial, never complete. God always had a faithful remnant throughout Biblical history.

Reformation is NOT the same as restoration. The Reformation came about because the RCC was not faithful to the Holy Scriptures. Rather, they were teaching man made traditions. They left the Word of God and added works. They became a wealthy, hierarchical en***y which Christ never established.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:08 AM

We were talking about Matthew 24 which is the Tribulation Chapter, but then you switched to Matthew 10:22

Hi Hogan:

I don't find any mention of Matthew 24 in my posts--it started out Matthew10:22--and remained Matthew10:22--along with additional supporting scripture, IE--

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--care to address those scriptures?

Mat 10:22.. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

This verse does not mean it is up to us, in our own strength, to endure to the end of our lives and then hopefully we will have done enough good works to get into Heaven. The truth of this verse is that only those who are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be able to endure all the persecutions and hard times they will face.

The scriptures testify those who endure to the end will be saved. IOW--enduring to the end is a condition of being saved.

dberrie, do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

Whether I do or don't--how are you relating that to what the scriptures testify to above?

Hogan--this is the usual line the faith alone pursue, whenever they see the scriptures testify against them--and they have no where else to go, IMO.

Care to address the above scriptures?

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:11 AM

The gospel of the mormon church is an "impossible gospel."

Hi Hogan:

IMO--what seems "impossible"--is trying to fit faith alone theology into the Biblical NT text:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

All of those scriptures fit LDS theology. How do you fit faith alone theology into those scriptures?

hogan60

03-05-2017, 06:22 AM

Hi Hogan:

I don't find any mention of Matthew 24 in my posts--it started out Matthew10:22--and remained Matthew10:22--along with additional supporting scripture, IE--

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--care to address those scriptures?

The scriptures testify those who endure to the end will be saved. IOW--enduring to the end is a condition of being saved.

Whether I do or don't--how are you relating that to what the scriptures testify to above?

Hogan--this is the usual line the faith alone pursue, whenever they see the scriptures testify against them--and they have no where else to go, IMO.

Care to address the above scriptures?

I have always tried to answer your questions and would prefer if you would do the same instead of asking me more questions.

do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

How will you ever know if you have done enough?

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:29 AM

I have always tried to answer your questions and would prefer if you would do the same instead of asking me more questions.

do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

How will you ever know if you have done enough?

Hi Hogan--

I'll let God judge that--as He will, regardless. My and your duty, IMO-- is to believe the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So, Hogan--are the scripture true independent of my (or your--or anyone's) obedience--or, are the scriptures only true if I meet all your conditions above?

Hogan--do you care to address the scriptures? They are the ones which testify against faith alone theology, IMO.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 06:39 AM

Hi Hogan--

I'll let God judge that--as He will, regardless. My and your duty, IMO-- is to believe the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So, Hogan--are the scripture true independent of my (or your--or anyone's) obedience--or, are the scriptures only true if I meet all your conditions above?

Hogan--do you care to address the scriptures? They are the ones which testify against faith alone theology, IMO.

hi deberrie, you're still dodging my questions. I cannot answer yours unless you are willing to do the same.

Do you have ***urance of your salvation?

Are you doing enough good works? How can you ever know?

Born again Christians will endure because its not what we do, but what Christ did for us.

John 6:39 KJV And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Hogan--

I'll let God judge that--as He will, regardless. My and your duty, IMO-- is to believe the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So, Hogan--are the scripture true independent of my (or your--or anyone's) obedience--or, are the scriptures only true if I meet all your conditions above?

Hogan--do you care to address the scriptures? They are the ones which testify against faith alone theology, IMO.

hi deberrie, you're still dodging my questions. I cannot answer yours unless you are willing to do the same.

Do you have ***urance of your salvation?

Are you doing enough good works? How can you ever know?

Hi Hogan:

I'm not going into personal judgment with you, so you will have to make your mind up if you are willing to discuss the Biblical witness, and it's truths. I consider your approach into personal judgment a diversion, and a common one, whenever one has to face scriptures which violate their theology, IMO.

Let's stuck with the Bible--as that is where we can find God's truths--not in being drawn off into subjects of our personal opinions.

Again--do you care to address the above scriptures--or have scriptures you would like to discuss--which is appertaining to the above subject?

hogan60

03-05-2017, 08:24 AM

Hi Hogan:

I'm not going into personal judgment with you, so you will have to make your mind up if you are willing to discuss the Biblical witness, and it's truths. I consider your approach into personal judgment a diversion, and a common one, whenever one has to face scriptures which violate their theology, IMO.

Let's stuck with the Bible--as that is where we can find God's truths--not in being drawn off into subjects of our personal opinions.

Again--do you care to address the above scriptures--or have scriptures you would like to discuss--which is appertaining to the above subject?

Its not personal judgement, dberrie. We are talking about your eternal soul which should not be taken lightly. Its important to understand what the Holy Bibles says about our eternal destiny. This is why I asked you these questions because if you can't answer them then you better make sure where you are going when this life is over. The Bible clearly teaches only 2 destinations: heaven or hell. If it depends on you working hard enough to try to be worthy, then you won't make it to heaven. The bible says all have fallen short. All are guilty. No one is righteous. Apart from the blood of Christ, you can't get to heaven.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 12:28 PM

Its not personal judgement, dberrie. We are talking about your eternal soul which should not be taken lightly.

Hi Hogan:

I am going to rely on Christ for that, but thank you for the concern.

As for the gospel truths--let's stick with the Bible:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--how do you fit those verses into your theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 12:30 PM

Apart from the blood of Christ, you can't get to heaven.

I agree--and this is what the Biblical record testifies to, according to the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 02:06 PM

I agree--and this is what the Biblical record testifies to, according to the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

Christians who are born again (in Christ) are walking in the light. I do not see works in this verse.

lds theology is irrelevant unless you can prove the gospel was lost from the earth. Its just as irrelevant as Jehovah's Witnesses' theology. As I said in an earlier post. Reformation is not the same as restoration.

hogan60

03-05-2017, 02:10 PM

Hi Hogan:

I am going to rely on Christ for that, but thank you for the concern.

As for the gospel truths--let's stick with the Bible:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--how do you fit those verses into your theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

dberrie, I already addressed Heb. 6:4-:8. These Jews had tasted, but had not fully "swallowed." the gospel of grace. They were still mixing it with Judaism.

I addressed 1 Tim. 4:16. Paul was giving Timothy, a pastor advice on pastoring. He was telling Timothy to keep preaching the Truth, as Paul taught and thereby his congregation would not be led astray.

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 04:52 PM

dberrie, I already addressed Heb. 6:4-:8. These Jews had tasted, but had not fully "swallowed." the gospel of grace.

Since much of faith alone theology states one is saved the instant one believes--could you explain for us what "swallowing" the gospel of grace involves?

Are you claiming those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were not saved?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

DrDavidT

03-05-2017, 05:56 PM

dberrie2000

03-05-2017, 08:06 PM

AGAIN HOGAN--- do you have verses which support mormon ideology? i.e. where Jesus taught that lucifer was his brother and other topics? if NOT then please refrain from interrupting a discussion.

I want dberrie or other mormons to present the scriptures supporting their ideology.

yes i am ticked off.

Hi David:

You have not addressed the posted Biblical scriptures which support LDS theology:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Care to address those scriptures?

hogan60

03-06-2017, 03:20 AM

Since much of faith alone theology states one is saved the instant one believes--could you explain for us what "swallowing" the gospel of grace involves?

Are you claiming those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were not saved?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hi dberrie, can you tell me what these verses mean?

Galatains 3:6-13

6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

hogan60

03-06-2017, 03:58 AM

Since much of faith alone theology states one is saved the instant one believes--could you explain for us what "swallowing" the gospel of grace involves?

Are you claiming those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were not saved?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Its real simple, dberrie, a lot of these Jews had not yet made the break from Judaism and embraced Jesus as the Messiah. putting that (law keeping) behind them and moving into Paul’s doctrines of Grace. Faith plus nothing, as we see in I Corinthians 15:1-4. It is possible for someone to be enlightened. To have the Holy Spirit open their understanding. They may even have an emotional experience; they may walk an aisle to respond to an altar call. They may do all the different things that a church requires of them, but they never took it hook, line and sinker.

To fall from grace means to go back to law (commandment) keeping.

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 06:19 AM

Its real simple, dberrie, a lot of these Jews had not yet made the break from Judaism and embraced Jesus as the Messiah. putting that (law keeping) behind them and moving into Paul’s doctrines of Grace. Faith plus nothing, as we see in I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Hi Hogan:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

So--were these some of the things they should remember which Paul preached to them--or else their belief was in vain?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

To fall from grace means to go back to law (commandment) keeping.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Can liars inherit the kingdom of God?

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 06:24 AM

Hi dberrie, can you tell me what these verses mean?

Galatains 3:6-13

6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

hogan60

03-06-2017, 06:36 AM

It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

What gospel did Abraham live under? Was it the gospel of grace that Paul taught?

Did Abraham believe God or Jesus Christ? Was his faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

hogan60

03-06-2017, 06:37 AM

dberrie2000

03-06-2017, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

What gospel did Abraham live under?

If it wasn't the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Was it the gospel of grace that Paul taught?

The gospel is the same whenever it is taught.

Did Abraham believe God or Jesus Christ? Was his faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

I was not under the impression there was a difference. The LDS believe it was God the Son which was the God of both the OT and the NT, as Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 03:41 AM

If it wasn't the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The gospel is the same whenever it is taught.

I was not under the impression there was a difference. The LDS believe it was God the Son which was the God of both the OT and the NT, as Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Dberrie, Abraham did only one thing that caused God to credit it to him as righteousness. He Believed in the One True God. That was obedience. There was no works he did at that time. He had just left behind a polytheistic people. They believed in false gods,. Abraham came out of that and said he believed in the one true God. That's all he did and that's all that was required. AFTER he was saved, God gave him commands which Abraham obeyed. Nowhere did God tell him that through perfect obedience Abraham could one day become a god himself.

The lds version of Jesus Christ is that he was a man like us , who through obedience, earned exaltation. That is is not the Biblical Jehovah of the OT or the Christ of the NT. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ preexisted with God the Father. We see God the Father at Creation and also the Word and the Spirit. Colossians says that Christ made all things. God said He will not share His glory with another, yet He always shared glory with Jesus Christ because they are one.

The reason you stress so much on "obedience" and pull out those verses that have the word "obey" or "obedience" in them is because the lds church teaches that men can become gods someday. The Bible nowhere teaches this. We will never be like Christ who is God, the Son. He was never created. We are.

Again, I ask you, which gospel was Abraham under? Was it the gospel Paul taught or the mormon gospel? Paul called the gospel of grace his gospel, meaning he was the first to teach it as he learned it from the risen Christ. it was never taught before until after the death and resurrection of Christ. Did the Israelites know of the gospel as taught by Paul? They were under the law. Grace did not come in till after Christ died on the cross.This is why Jesus never taught grace to the apostles. They were still under law. So Jesus would say keep the commandments.

Abraham was before the law was given to the Jews. He obeyed God first by believing in Him. That's how he was saved. Then God was able to use him and make a covenant with him.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:07 AM

Dberrie, Abraham did only one thing that caused God to credit it to him as righteousness. He Believed in the One True God. That was obedience. There was no works he did at that time.

So--are you claiming obeying God's commandments, laws, and statutes are not works?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The promises were given due to Abraham's obedience to God's commands--if the record is true.

Abraham came out of that and said he believed in the one true God. That's all he did and that's all that was required.

Again--if the promises were conditional upon Abraham's obedience--then believe and obedience are connected as integral components one to another:

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:15 AM

The lds version of Jesus Christ is that he was a man like us , who through obedience, earned exaltation.

The LDS version is the Biblical version--Jesus Christ's God and Father exalted Jesus to be Savior and Kind--and the heir of all things:

Acts 5:30-31---King James Version (KJV)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 1:1-9---King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Revelation 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ preexisted with God the Father.

Since the LDS believe Jesus Christ was the God of the OT--you are preaching to the choir.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:19 AM

God said He will not share His glory with another, yet He always shared glory with Jesus Christ because they are one.

I agree:

John 17:21-23---King James Version (KJV)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The reason you stress so much on "obedience" and pull out those verses that have the word "obey" or "obedience" in them is because the lds church teaches that men can become gods someday.

Whatever reason or significance one may want to attach to obedience to Jesus Christ--if obedience is required for His grace unto life--then faith alone theology is false. End of story.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:35 AM

Since the LDS believe Jesus Christ was the God of the OT--you are preaching to the choir.

dberrie, I am talking about before Christ was Jehovah. According to lds teaching, was he a man like us, YES or NO?

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:42 AM

I agree:

John 17:21-23---King James Version (KJV)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Whatever reason or significance one may want to attach to obedience to Jesus Christ--if obedience is required for His grace unto life--then faith alone theology is false. End of story.

dberrie, you haven't given us a single Biblical verse that says obedience is required for grace in one's life. The Bible says while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. In Matt 2:17, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." He came to give grace to sinners. It doesn't say he gives grace to the obedient. If that were true than it wouldn't be a gift but something you have to try to earn through a myriad of works. You can never know in this life if you have done enough. If you have to work so hard, then Christ died in vain.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:44 AM

dberrie, I am talking about before Christ was Jehovah.

Since Christ was Jehovah in the OT--what are you claiming He was before then?

According to lds teaching, was he a man like us, YES or NO?

Christ was a Spirit in the OT. He became physical man in the NT--and evermore.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 06:44 AM

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:46 AM

dberrie, you haven't given us a single Biblical verse that says obedience is required for grace in one's life.

Hi Hogan:

That is the common denial the faith alone resort to whenever scriptures are posted which defy their theology, IMO:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 06:54 AM

Where does John 17 say men can become gods? Born again believers are "the body of Christ."

John 17:21-23---King James Version (KJV)
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17 testifies the "one" the Father and Son are--is the "one" which the disciples of Christ should be, negating the definition the faith alone would like to apply to "one".

Very friendly to LDS theology. Bringing in an issue of "gods" won't change that.

You might want to take that point up with Christ:

John 10:34-36---King James Version (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

hogan60

03-07-2017, 07:11 AM

Hi Hogan:

That is the common denial the faith alone resort to whenever scriptures are posted which defy their theology, IMO:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I don't have a church theology. I believe what the Bible says and I let it mean what it says.

dberrie, can you tell me how Eph. 2:8,9 which says we are saved by grace and not of works, squares with lds theology?

hogan60

03-07-2017, 07:12 AM

hogan60

03-07-2017, 07:24 AM

Since Christ was Jehovah in the OT--what are you claiming He was before then?

Christ was a Spirit in the OT. He became physical man in the NT--and evermore.

LDS teaching is that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." (king Follette Discourse) Is this also true of Jesus Christ?

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 08:09 AM

LDS teaching is that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens." (king Follette Discourse) Is this also true of Jesus Christ?

Yes, of course. If that isn't true--then we don't have any hope of eternal life.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 08:31 AM

dberrie, can you tell me how Eph. 2:8,9 which says we are saved by grace and not of works, squares with lds theology?

Hi Hogan:

Two points:

1) There is nothing in LDS theology which states one is saved by works. LDS theology has those who are saved--being saved by God's grace.

The question in LDS theology becomes--who does God give this grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2) When Paul used the term "works"--that is a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not obedience to the gospel of Christ, obviously:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Corinthians 7:19--King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Colossians 3:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Romans 2:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For this ye know, that no *****monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

***us 1:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

hogan60

03-07-2017, 10:38 AM

Hi Hogan:

Two points:

1) There is nothing in LDS theology which states one is saved by works. LDS theology has those who are saved--being saved by God's grace.

The question in LDS theology becomes--who does God give this grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

2) When Paul used the term "works"--that is a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not obedience to the gospel of Christ, obviously:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1 Corinthians 7:19--King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Galatians 6:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Galatians 5:19-21King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Colossians 3:5-6---King James Version (KJV)
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Romans 2:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For this ye know, that no *****monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

***us 1:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So you are continuing to be saved throughout your lifetime? How? By good works?

hogan60

03-07-2017, 10:41 AM

Yes, of course. If that isn't true--then we don't have any hope of eternal life.

Was Jesus Christ once a man like Heavenly Father was also once a man?

If you believe Heavenly Father is an exalted man and that this is necessary for eternal life, then what you are saying is that Born again Christians all throughout the history of the Christian Church do not have eternal life because the Scriptures do not teach any of this.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 11:29 AM

So you are continuing to be saved throughout your lifetime? How? By good works?

Hi Hogan:

As the scriptures testify to:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 2:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hogan--most people have their minds made up--they ignore what the scriptures testify to--and make up their own theology. Most of what I post in scriptures--is p***ed over as "out of context", "cherry picked"----or just plain ole false doctrines.

dberrie2000

03-07-2017, 11:39 AM

Was Jesus Christ once a man like Heavenly Father was also once a man?

Hi Hogan:

Once we accept God the Son was once a mortal man--on this planet--and died here--then the step to include God the Father is not an introduction to a unique idea.

So--is God an exalted man of flesh and bones?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You do see the problem? Hogan--the faith alone don't believe there is but one God--they cannot answer that question but with anything but a "yes" answer, as to the question of God being an exalted man.

If you believe Heavenly Father is an exalted man and that this is necessary for eternal life,

I have never heard the LDS preach believing God the Father is an exalted man is necessary for eternal life.

What the LDS do preach is--faith in Christ, and obedience to Him--is necessary for eternal life.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And if that is true--then faith alone theology is false.

DrDavidT

03-07-2017, 06:01 PM

well I will be departing soon, as people cannot refrain from derailing my threads.

hogan60

03-08-2017, 03:51 AM

Hi Hogan:

Once we accept God the Son was once a mortal man--on this planet--and died here--then the step to include God the Father is not an introduction to a unique idea.

So--is God an exalted man of flesh and bones?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

You do see the problem? Hogan--the faith alone don't believe there is but one God--they cannot answer that question but with anything but a "yes" answer, as to the question of God being an exalted man.

I have never heard the LDS preach believing God the Father is an exalted man is necessary for eternal life.

What the LDS do preach is--faith in Christ, and obedience to Him--is necessary for eternal life.

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And if that is true--then faith alone theology is false.

dberrie, Are you willing to believe God over what some man says? Are you wiling to allow God to speak for Himself and not put words in His mouth? WE MUST let God mean what He said. God said He knows of NO OTHER GODS. Was He lying? Does He have a poor memory? If God knows of no other gods anywhere, then we had better believe Him! God did NOT say there are no other gods on this earth. He said there are NO OTHER GODS PERIOD!. And guess what? Satan is the god of this world. Planet earth.

Isaiah 43:10-11, "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded you, though you have not known me."

Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 44:8, "Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”

Deut. 4:35, "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."

dberrie, you are treading on dangerous ground. You are calling God a liar without realizing it. God also was never a man. He always existed as God from ETERNITY past to ETERNITY future.

hogan60

03-08-2017, 04:06 AM

hogan60

03-08-2017, 04:23 AM

Hi Hogan:

Once we accept God the Son was once a mortal man--on this planet--and died here--then the step to include God the Father is not an introduction to a unique idea.

.

Can you tell me, if God was once a man like us, who created him? Where did the first man come from and how did he become exalted?

dberrie, do you see the problem with this? The Holy Bible tells us who created the first man. It tells us God was always God.

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2).

Before anything was created, God was already there.

"I say, "O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, your years are throughout all generations. Of old you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands." (Psalm 102:24,25).

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 05:10 AM

dberrie, Are you willing to believe God over what some man says? Are you wiling to allow God to speak for Himself and not put words in His mouth? WE MUST let God mean what He said. God said He knows of NO OTHER GODS. Was He lying? Does He have a poor memory? If God knows of no other gods anywhere, then we had better believe Him! God did NOT say there are no other gods on this earth. He said there are NO OTHER GODS PERIOD!.And guess what? Satan is the god of this world. Planet earth.

Morning, Hogan:

That sounds a little confused, don't you think? If there are no other Gods, period--then how can satan be a god?

Doesn't that qualify as polytheistic?

Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

Hogan--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 05:20 AM

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie."...Not even an exalted man.

Morning, Hogan:

In the Book of Numbers--God was a Spirit.

In the NT--He was born a man--here, on this planet--and is still a man:

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And He was exalted by His God and Father:

Acts 5:30-31---King James Version (KJV)
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Philippians 2:5-9---King James Version (KJV)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

So--could you explain for us what you believe is untrue about that witness?

hogan60

03-08-2017, 05:26 AM

Morning, Hogan:

That sounds a little confused, don't you think? If there are no other Gods, period--then how can satan be a god?

Doesn't that qualify as polytheistic?

Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

Hogan--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

No confusion here, dberrie. Did you notice the little "g" in satan is the god of this world? In other words, he is NOT God. Not equal to God. He is a created angel and we also are God's creation. Satan, for the time being, rules this world, but when Christ returns, that will be the end of it.

God is not a man, not an exalted man. Read the scriptures that says he was always God from eternity to eternity. We must never try to redefine words, but let God be true and let Him mean exactly what He said.

You wrote: Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god.

Its says belief in OR worship. It does not say belief in AND worship. You don't have to worship multiple gods to be polytheistic. Just believe many exist. And the mormons do believe there are zillions.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 05:29 AM

Can you tell me, if God was once a man like us, who created him?

God was once a man, and still is--because if He was not--then you have no hope of salvation, as He died for all here, on this earth--as a man--that man might have life. That is the reason He is referred to as the Savior of all men.

Jesus Christ was Fathered, just as all mankind was. All spirits were Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That is the reason Jesus was able to state He shared the same Father and God with mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And all spirits are the offspring of God the Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 05:39 AM

No confusion here, dberrie. Did you notice the little "g" in satan is the god of this world?

I didn't notice any big "G" here:

Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster
: belief in or worship of more than one god

So--are you claiming --it's OK if you believe in other gods--as long as it's spelled with a little "g"?

Hogan--you still fall into the definition of polytheism when you do so, as the definition of polytheism uses the little "g".

And the NT always separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT--and designates the "one God" as the God and Father of God the Son:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

hogan60

03-08-2017, 05:52 AM

God was once a man, and still is--because if He was not--then you have no hope of salvation, as He died for all here, on this earth--as a man--that man might have life. That is the reason He is referred to as the Savior of all men.

Jesus Christ was Fathered, just as all mankind was. All spirits were Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That is the reason Jesus was able to state He shared the same Father and God with mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And all spirits are the offspring of God the Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Who created Heavenly Father?

Where did the first man come from and how did he become exalted?

What you are doing is forcing mormonism into the Biblical p***ages. Did you know that the Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing? So do 7th day adventists, and all those other groups that have been labeled cults.

hogan60

03-08-2017, 05:57 AM

Morning, Hogan:

That sounds a little confused, don't you think? If there are no other Gods, period--then how can satan be a god?

Doesn't that qualify as polytheistic?

Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

Hogan--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

deberrie, the little "g" in the word god, denotes a false god. God said that satan is the god of this world, not my words, but the very Word of God. Satan wanted to be like God and it got him kicked out of heaven.

Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and it got them kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

If any man wants to be like God and thinks he can achieve this through works, is sadly deceived and will not be in heaven.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 07:26 AM

deberrie, the little "g" in the word god, denotes a false god. God said that satan is the god of this world, not my words, but the very Word of God.

If satan is a god--then he is a real god--as satan is real.

Again--the definition of polytheism does not distinguish out the little "g":

Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

If you believe satan is a god--then you qualify as polytheistic under the definition above.

Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and it got them kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

According to the testimony of God Himself--it was more than a desire:

Genesis 3:22--King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

If any man wants to be like God and thinks he can achieve this through works, is sadly deceived and will not be in heaven.

Whatever one wants to be like--if they wish to obtain the Kingdom of God--it will be through obedience to the Savior:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post God was once a man, and still is--because if He was not--then you have no hope of salvation, as He died for all here, on this earth--as a man--that man might have life. That is the reason He is referred to as the Savior of all men.

Jesus Christ was Fathered, just as all mankind was. All spirits were Fathered by God the Father:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That is the reason Jesus was able to state He shared the same Father and God with mankind:

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And all spirits are the offspring of God the Father:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Who created Heavenly Father?

Where did the first man come from

Hi Hogan:

I have no idea. How does that address my post above?

and how did he become exalted?

God exalts those who obey Him:

1 Peter 5:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

What you are doing is forcing mormonism into the Biblical p***ages.

The LDS don't have to force anything--what is found in the Biblical NT--is found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go.

But I can testify of this--the faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Care to address my above post--and the scriptures therein? Hogan--taint so!!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 07:46 AM

If satan is a god--then he is a real god-]who says?

if I say some rock star is a "god"...is he?

if I say my love for food is my god...is it?

If I say that evil in this world is a god,,,,is it?

If i call anything you can think of my "god'....is it actually?....or am I just using the term "a god" as a symbol for something else?

i can call anything you can think of a 'god'.....angels, demons, the guy who pumps gas....the cat the sign on the wall.....etc.

Lots of things act like they are a god in our lives....TV...the internet....the feelings you get.....food......but when I call them "a god" do you really think I mean that they actually are?

In the life of a Christian we say we believe in only "one god"....and this is true.
What this mean is that in the universe and in heaven, there is only one god in nature....

This also means that anything, be it in the Bible, or in our lives, or on the Tv or in books and websites that is called 'a god' is not really a god at all, but is just named that as a symbol for what you are really talking about...

Its the very same as when someone says they are "the door"....are they really made of wood?

hogan60

03-08-2017, 07:50 AM

If satan is a god--then he is a real god--as satan is real.

Again--the definition of polytheism does not distinguish out the little "g":

Definition of polytheism--Merriam Webster

: belief in or worship of more than one god

If you believe satan is a god--then you qualify as polytheistic under the definition above.

According to the testimony of God Himself--it was more than a desire:

Genesis 3:22--King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Whatever one wants to be like--if they wish to obtain the Kingdom of God--it will be through obedience to the Savior:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Hi dberrie, So now you are saying satan is a real god. Not a fallen angel, not a false god, but a real god. Does that mean he is one of the zillions of gods that mormons believe exist? There are no real gods.There is only One True God and Abraham believed in Him alone. Thus God was able to bless him and made a covenant with him.

I guess you would prefer to just dismiss all the Isaiah p***ages I gave you because it doesn't agree with mormonism. God said there are no other gods, none were formed before Him and none shall come after. I ask you again, does God Lie, YES or NO? Does He have a memory problem?

You are delving in deep waters of error here. None of what you wrote is even scriptual. For satan to truly be God, he would have to possess all knowledge and all authority.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 07:50 AM

this is why a christian is allowed to eat foods that were offered to non-Christian false gods...

We can eat because we know that the idea that there are any other gods in the universe is a joke.

Its just a false teaching that men fall into...so for us we know that all the prayers and foods and gifts offered to non-Christian false gods is silly and not really worth worrying about as there is no such thing as 'other gods'

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 07:52 AM

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 07:54 AM

who says?

Well--Paul did:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

hogan60

03-08-2017, 07:55 AM

Hi Hogan:

I have no idea. How does that address my post above?

God exalts those who obey Him:

1 Peter 5:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

The LDS don't have to force anything--what is found in the Biblical NT--is found in the LDS church, as far as salvational doctrines go.

But I can testify of this--the faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical text:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Care to address my above post--and the scriptures therein? Hogan--taint so!!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

Of course you can't answer if Heavenly Father was once a man who created Him? Who created the first man and how did he become exalted? The Holy Bible tells us that God was always God from everlasting to everlasting? Why don't you believe God? Because God disputes the teachings of the lds church.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 07:58 AM

Well--Paul did:

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

no,,,if Paul believe that satan was actually a god, then Paul was in error

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 08:00 AM

Hi dberrie, So now you are saying satan is a real god. Not a fallen angel, not a false god, but a real god.

You do believe satan is real?

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There is only One True God and Abraham believed in Him alone.

There might be something you want to consider here:

Abraham believed in Jesus Christ--who was the God of the OT. God the Son was separated out from the "one God" in the Biblical NT, and, according to the very testimony of Christ--God the Son is also separated out from "the only true God", when comparing God the Father and God the Son:

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Care to address that concern?

hogan60

03-08-2017, 08:03 AM

who says?

if I say some rock star is a "god"...is he?

if I say my love for food is my god...is it?

If I say that evil in this world is a god,,,,is it?

If i call anything you can think of my "god'....is it actually?....or am I just using the term "a god" as a symbol for something else?

i can call anything you can think of a 'god'.....angels, demons, the guy who pumps gas....the cat the sign on the wall.....etc.

Lots of things act like they are a god in our lives....TV...the internet....the feelings you get.....food......but when I call them "a god" do you really think I mean that they actually are?

In the life of a Christian we say we believe in only "one god"....and this is true.
What this mean is that in the universe and in heaven, there is only one god in nature....

This also means that anything, be it in the Bible, or in our lives, or on the Tv or in books and websites that is called 'a god' is not really a god at all, but is just named that as a symbol for what you are really talking about...

Its the very same as when someone says they are "the door"....are they really made of wood?

Exactly, Alan. Anything we give all our time to can become a "god." God Himself said: "Thou shall have no other gods before me." He didn't mean other Gods like Him because none exist. Certainly not the zillions of gods mormons believe exist. He meant false idols. It can be drugs, alcohol, TV, food. Or even false deities of Buddaism, etc.

hogan60

03-08-2017, 08:07 AM

You do believe satan is real?

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There might be something you want to consider here:

Abraham believed in Jesus Christ--who was the God of the OT. God the Son was separated out from the "one God" in the Biblical NT, and, according to the very testimony of Christ--God the Son is also separated out from "the only true God", when comparing God the Father and God the Son:

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Care to address that concern?

dberrie, I really don't appreciate your attempt to try to trap me or engage in word/mind games. I thought we could have a serious dialogue and learn something, but it seems you want mormonism more than you want Truth, which is the Word of God.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 08:09 AM

I guess you would prefer to just dismiss all the Isaiah p***ages I gave you because it doesn't agree with mormonism. God said there are no other gods, none were formed before Him and none shall come after. I ask you again, does God Lie, YES or NO? Does He have a memory problem?

Hi Hogan:

The faith alone usually resort to the OT Isaiah p***ages to match their theology--but there is a problem with that:

The NT testimony would be blasphemy to OT theology adherents--as far as the Godhead is concerned:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Please do explain how you fit Deutero-Isaiah era theology--with the NT theology--which separates out God the Son from the "one God" of the Biblical NT.

Hogan--never did the NT writers--ever--combine God the Son into the "one God"--but always separated out God the Son from the Biblical NT "one God"--the very "God and Father" of God the Son.

Care to address that concern?

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post You do believe satan is real?

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There might be something you want to consider here:

Abraham believed in Jesus Christ--who was the God of the OT. God the Son was separated out from the "one God" in the Biblical NT, and, according to the very testimony of Christ--God the Son is also separated out from "the only true God", when comparing God the Father and God the Son:

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Care to address that concern?

dberrie, I really don't appreciate your attempt to try to trap me or engage in word/mind games. I thought we could have a serious dialogue and learn something, but it seems you want mormonism more than you want Truth, which is the Word of God.

I appreciate you connecting Mormonism with the above scriptures--as that is just what the Biblical NT does.

Hogan--this point you have reached is inevitable, IMO--because of what I testified to you before--the faith alone have precious little in common with the Biblical NT, their theology is based on man-made doctrines, and when they engage someone who knows the scriptures--they become frustrated. I use the scriptures, not the man-made approach. That is going to lead to your frustration, IMO.

Would you care to engage the above scriptures? If you believe they are the "Word of God"--then why not?

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 08:36 AM

Exactly, Alan. Anything we give all our time to can become a "god."......

Yes, we should be very clear when we talk about the term "gods" when we teach on this topic.

So I will be very clear now...If Paul actually believed that there are other gods, then he was wrong and his teachings are in error.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4AN2hHk7ws

Here is the text of the above video - http://apprising.org/2012/02/05/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-transcription-of-dr-walter-martin-video/

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 10:26 AM

YIf Paul actually believed that there are other gods, then he was wrong and his teachings are in error.

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Christ also in error?

John10:34-35---KJV
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Were the OT writers in error also?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 11:01 AM

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Christ also in error?

John10:34-35---KJV
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Were the OT writers in error also?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Yes,,,you can quote me bible verses all you want...

But my statement stands.....

as does this-

If any person,,,be he Paul...Peter,,,or even Jesus Christ, believe there is more than one God?...they are wrong and in error.

see the linked video on post #94 for more information about this issue.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

2 Corinthians 4:4---King James Version (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Was Christ also in error?

John10:34-35---KJV
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Were the OT writers in error also?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version (KJV)
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Yes,,,you can quote me bible verses all you want...

But my statement stands.....

as does this-

If any person,,,be he Paul...Peter,,,or even Jesus Christ, believe there is more than one God?...they are wrong and in error.

There you have it, folks.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 01:30 PM

If any person,,,be he Paul...Peter,,,or even Jesus Christ, believe there is more than one God?...they are wrong and in error.

.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!…

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes,,,you can quote me bible verses all you want...

But my statement stands.....

as does this-

If any person,,,be he Paul...Peter,,,or even Jesus Christ, believe there is more than one God?...they are wrong and in error.

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 02:32 PM

yes,,,any person that claims there is more than one god,,,,,does not matter who they are.......does not matter squat.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 02:34 PM

Doesn't matter squat if they show up with all kinds of angel music and smoke, and even brought treats for the whole cl***....

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 02:44 PM

Does not matter if a voice from heaven was heard saying "Listen to him!"

Does not matter if angels and archangels and all the company of heaven , all joined in singing "Listen to him".

Does not matter if the sky opened up and there was seen in the eternal void the words, "Listen to him" written with light of children's dreams .

it would not matter squat.....

For none of that would matter...it would all be a moot point...

and I would not listen.

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 03:15 PM

Does not matter if a voice from heaven was heard saying "Listen to him!"

It matters to me--I listen to those heavenly revelations:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Alan--could you explain for us what it is about those scriptures which might not matter to you?

It fits LDS theology well. How do you fit your theology into those verses?

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 03:45 PM

it matters to me--i listen to those heavenly revelations:

.....
well duh,
.............

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 03:47 PM

.....

Alan--could you explain for us what it is about those scriptures ....?

....You forgot John 1:1

I will start what that one if you like?

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 03:50 PM

There are three Persons – Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and these three share the same attributes. In effect, the three Persons are the One God.

All we are saying very simply is – that within God’s Unity or Nature, we can discern 3 distinct Persons, so far as you and I are able to understand Persons.

And, these three Persons are in effect the One God. That’s the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity – what that revelation is.

Now one of the cardinal rules of interpreting the Bible is this: You always interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament – NEVER the reverse.

The New Testament completes the Old Testament, and you go backwards from the completion to the beginning to interpret, for the Scriptures are complete in the New Testament revelation.

Now if we can demonstrate from the New Testament that there are really three Persons, and if we can demonstrate that the three Persons are all called God, and if we can demonstrate that there is only ONE God, then we are driven to only one possible conclusion:

Things equal to the same thing, are equal to each other, and the three Persons are the one God.

You don’t have to be a great logician. You don’t have to be a great theologian. You don’t have to go to college. You don’t have to even graduate from high school to think that one through.

Think about it for a moment.

If you can show that there are three Persons in the New Testament, and if you can show that these three Persons are called God (or Jehovah to accomodate the Witnesses), and if we can show there is only One God, then the three Persons ARE the one God. And the argument ends at that point.

If the New Testament says that there are three Persons, and if the New Testaments says that these three Persons are all called Jehovah, and if there is only one Jehovah, then the three Persons are the One God, and the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

Let us begin scientifically, inductively, simply to see whether or not it can be proved.

First of all: Is there a Person called the Father in the New Testament and is He called God?

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 03:51 PM

First of all: Is there a Person called the Father in the New Testament and is He called God?

A legitimate question to which we ought to have a legitimate answer.

2nd Peter Chapter 1 verse 17 – It should be marked in your Bibles, and I think it should be clearly indicated why you are marking it there – you are identifying someone.

2nd Peter Chapter 1 verse 17: “For He The Lord Jesus received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Now we have proven two specific things from this text:

One – There is a Person called the Father and

[TWO] – He is identified as God. Verse 17 “He received from God the Father.”

Identification – The Father is Jehovah. No possible way out. The Jehovah’s Witnesses will agree with you right down the line.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 03:53 PM

Revelation 1 is a very clear example.

Verse 8: “I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

Now Jehovah’s Witnesses admit in their own translation that this is Jehovah God, and they translate it this way: “I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says Jehovah God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

They have established the premise.

Revelation 1:8 – Alpha and Omega IS Jehovah God.

Revelation Chapter 22 – The person speaking says “Behold, I come quickly!” Verse 7.

And as you go on reading Revelation 22 there’s a repe***ion – Verse 12 “Behold, I come quickly; my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Verse 13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

I think that’s pretty clear. The Alpha and the Omega is speaking again. And the Alpha and the Omega is by Jehovah’s Witnesses own definition – Jehovah God.

So Revelation 22:13 can be cross-referenced with Revelation 1:8 and you have a perfect identification of Jehovah God in both places.

Now get to Verse 17 and 18. “When I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the First and the Last.”

So Jesus Christ the son of Man identifies Himself as Alpha and Omega, identifies Himself as First and Last, and now He even goes further:

“…I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore.”

Literally the Greek reads “I am He that lives and BECAME dead and behold I live for all eternity. Amen. I have the keys of Hell and of Death.”

Now the identification is irrefutable. Christ calls Himself First and Last, and Jehovah’s Witnesses admit He’s Alpha and Omega.

It’s a terrible problem for them to solve, and they don’t solve it at all.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 03:56 PM

Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife being (literally in cahoots with him. The word privy means in Old English she was actually working with him in the deal. She knew what was going on.) and they laid that part of it they intended to give at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (Verse 3) and keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, was it not your own? and after it was sold, was it not your own power? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?”

Now underline the next sentence: “You have not lied unto men, but unto God.”

Now go back a verse: [Acts 5:3] “Peter said unto Ananias, ‘why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie”… to who? “the Holy Spirit.’”

Now who IS this Holy Spirit in verse 4? … You have not lied to men. You have lied to God.

The same man who identified God the Father identifies God the Holy Spirit. And if there’s only one Jehovah, then the three Persons are the One God, and the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 04:01 PM

or..........just listen to this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgS7xkHRkCs

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 04:05 PM

as for the so-called other "gods" ?

Here is a good answer to that-

https://www.gotquestions.org/no-other-gods.html

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 04:09 PM

as for what the Mormons are in to?

here you go-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Q7VbhkrVw

dberrie2000

03-08-2017, 04:28 PM

You forgot John 1:1 I will start what that one if you like?

How do you collate John1:1 with the posted scriptures?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The LDS collate it as God the Son--but not the "one God"--which was the God and Father of God the Son--as the above scriptures show.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 06:23 PM

John 1:1

Within the nature of the one true God there are 3 persons.

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God

Yet there are not 3 gods but One God.

The Word was with God.......I believe the Greek says, the word was toward the God
The Word was God.....I believe the Greek says What the God was, the Word was.

The Word became flesh......the God of John 1:1 was wrapped in flesh and born as a man....fully 100% God almighty, the only true God in the universe....and fully 100% human, the same as me and you.

This is why the Bible says there is but one mediator between God and man, the "man" Christ Jesus...for Jesus is fully 100% human!...yet never stopped being the one true God Almighty.

This is why the Bible can says "One God, the Father" for the Father is truly the God of the Son....for the Son is truly human as as such worshiped the father as his God.

(Had he not been able to do so he would not be like us, and thus if he is not truly like us then his resurrection if pointless to us)

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 06:44 PM

Now when we read that there is "One God, the Father" does this mean that Jersus cant be God?

I will go over the answer but first, here is a site for you people who want to make sure all i say is not just junk I make up...

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/there-is-one-god-the-fatherand-one-lord-jesus-christ

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 06:47 PM

“About eating food offered to idols, then, we know that ‘an idol is nothing in the world,’ and that ‘there is no God but one.’ For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”

So does the fact that “for us there is one God, the Father,” mean that Jesus cannot also be God? Initially it might seem so. But consider a parallel question based on the same p***age: Does the fact that “for us there is … one Lord, Jesus Christ,” mean that the Father cannot also be Lord?

This is obviously not the case, for the Father is certainly Lord—meaning Master and Ruler. Jesus prayed, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth” (Matthew 11:25). And Revelation 11:15 mentions the Kingdom “of our Lord and of His Christ.” Jesus is indeed Lord, but obviously the Father is Lord above Him. This does not contradict Paul’s statement. And neither do other verses that proclaim the deity of Christ.

Rather than excluding Jesus from being God, a careful reading of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 should help us to see that He is included in the divine iden***y. Paul is briefly affirming the contrast between pagan polytheism (the belief in many gods) and true monotheism (the belief in just one God). But why doesn’t he limit his affirmation that “there is no God but one” to stating only that “there is one God, the Father”? Why does he even mention “one Lord, Jesus Christ,” in this context?

Surely it is because Jesus is an important part of what God is. As elsewhere, Paul shows here that while “all things”—the entire created realm, both physical and spiritual—is ultimately from God the Father, it was all actually made through Jesus Christ. And Jesus rules over it all as Lord under the Father.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 06:50 PM

So if both Father and Son are God and both are Lord, why does Paul divide Them out as “one God, the Father” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ”? We are not explicitly told, but the cl***ification is used elsewhere in Scripture. In Psalms 110:1, Israel’s King David referred to an intermediary between God and himself as Lord. The verse begins: “The Lord [ Yhwh ] said to my Lord …” As the New Testament makes plain, Yhwh (the Eternal God) in this case designates the Father, who is speaking to the One who became Jesus Christ, David’s immediate Lord, ruling on the Father’s behalf.

We also have Jesus’ own prayer to the Father the night before His death, wherein He stated, “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). Some regard this verse as likewise denying the divinity of Christ, but it ***uredly does not. Besides the fact that Jesus said this while His power was limited in human flesh, when only the Father could act throughout the universe as God (John 5:30; John 14:10), the obvious intent is that He was pointing to the Father as the true focus of our worship, with Himself as the Father’s representative serving as intermediary.

This latter fact is evidently what Paul had in mind as well. In declaring the Father as the one God, he was referring to exclusivity of position, not exclusivity of divine nature. Just as Christ Himself did, Paul was acknowledging the Father as the Supreme Being over all and the focus of our worship. While “all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” (John 5:23), it should be evident that our honor of the Son is still relative to our honor of the Father. We honor the Son in this way because the Father has so ordained it. Thus, the Son is not the one God in the sense of the Supreme Being—and Paul therefore did not include Him in that designation.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 06:51 PM

But this does not exclude the Son from being God in the sense of sharing the same level of existence with the Father and sharing rule with the Father over all—and of acting as God on the Father’s behalf throughout eternity, past and future. For the Son is in fact God in this very sense. Yet had Paul referred to Jesus as God in this particular context of denying polytheism and labeling the Father as the “one God,” it would likely have resulted in confusion for many. So he chose to use a different distinction, Lord —the same ***le Paul typically used for Jesus in his writings.

Designating Jesus as the “one Lord” stresses His role as the One who exercises God’s rule over creation—the point being that the Father does not do so directly but acts through Jesus Christ. This fact is a crucial aspect of defining God. And particularly for us, just as David recognized, Jesus is our immediate Lord and Master—the Father being ultimate Lord and Master. But there is no division in allegiance, for devotion to Christ is the way we are devoted to the Father. So again, the fact that the Father is Lord does not contradict Jesus being the “one Lord.” For their lordship is not divided. Rather, the Father rules through the Son.

This then, in stark contrast to the competing deities of pagan polytheism, is Paul’s brief explanation of true monotheism—God the Father, who is supreme, working through the Son, who perfectly carries out His will, these two being one in unity. And it is through Jesus that we worship and serve the Father. Thus, we should be able to see that Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 was not denying the deity of Christ but was, rather, affirming it through carefully chosen wording.

alanmolstad

03-08-2017, 06:54 PM

and that is how you and I are to connect John 1;1 to all the verses you listed....

DrDavidT

03-08-2017, 11:48 PM

yup there is no point in my being here

dberrie2000

03-09-2017, 05:23 AM

Now when we read that there is "One God, the Father" does this mean that Jersus cant be God?

No--Jesus Christ is God the Son.

But it does mean God the Son was not the "one God" of the Biblical NT:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Care to address that concern?