God's first creation

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation, and what was God's preeminent creation?

What was God's first creation? Please explain.

What was God's preeminent creation? Please explain.

[Russ]

I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation, and what was God's preeminent creation?

What was God's first creation? Please explain.

What was God's preeminent creation? Please explain.

God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). His first "creation" (or "procreation"), says LDSism, was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus. Satan was "procreated" sometime after.

...trying to keep it real and on topic with LDS discussion.

[maklelan]

God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). His first "creation" (or "procreation"), says LDSism, was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus. Satan was "procreated" sometime after.

...trying to keep it real and on topic with LDS discussion.

Are Latter-day Saints not allowed to ask questions of the beliefs of others on this board?

[baptizedinChrist]

What was God's first creation? Please explain.


Genesis 1:1 :: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
What is there to explain?


What was God's preeminent creation? Please explain.

Does He have one?

[Russ]

Are Latter-day Saints not allowed to ask questions of the beliefs of others on this board?

...but the author of this topic/thread already has this very same topic going on in another thread: http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392

Can we talk about LDSism and creation?

In LDS temples, creation is covered. Here's a sample of the larger picture found here (http://www.mormondoctrine.net/temple/endowment/compare_1984_to_1990.htm):



THE CREATION--FIRST DAY

ELOHIM: Jehovah, Michael, see: yonder is matter unorganized, go ye down and organize it into a world like unto the other worlds that we have hereunto formed. Call your labors the First Day, and bring me word.

JEHOVAH: It shall be done Elohim. Come Michael, let us go down.

MICHAEL: We will go down, Jehovah.

JEHOVAH: Michael, see: here is matter unorganized. We will organize it into a world like unto the other worlds that we have heretofore formed. We will call our labors the First Day, and return and report.

MICHAEL: We will return and report our labors on of the First Day, Jehovah.

JEHOVAH: Elohim, we have been down done as thou hast commanded, and have organized a world like unto the worlds that we have heretofore formed, and we have called out labors the First Day.

ELOHIM: It is well.

These are the things investigators should examine regarding LDS theology.

Compare Genesis ch. one.

P.S. Identification of characters:

ELOHIM: God

Jehovah: Jesus

Michael: Archangel

And that's a whole different story.

[maklelan]

...but the author of this topic/thread already has this very same topic going on in another thread: http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392

So that means this thread is now up for grabs?


Can we talk about LDSism and creation?

In LDS temples, creation is covered. Here's a sample of the larger picture found here (http://www.mormondoctrine.net/temple/endowment/compare_1984_to_1990.htm):



THE CREATION--FIRST DAY

ELOHIM: Jehovah, Michael, see: yonder is matter unorganized, go ye down and organize it into a world like unto the other worlds that we have hereunto formed. Call your labors the First Day, and bring me word.

JEHOVAH: It shall be done Elohim. Come Michael, let us go down.

MICHAEL: We will go down, Jehovah.

JEHOVAH: Michael, see: here is matter unorganized. We will organize it into a world like unto the other worlds that we have heretofore formed. We will call our labors the First Day, and return and report.

MICHAEL: We will return and report our labors on of the First Day, Jehovah.

JEHOVAH: Elohim, we have been down done as thou hast commanded, and have organized a world like unto the worlds that we have heretofore formed, and we have called out labors the First Day.

ELOHIM: It is well.

These are the things investigators should examine regarding LDS theology.

This isn't isn't theology, this is a temple presentation. It's a rhetorical device, not doctrine. I would think you would know this. After all, the standard works give four different accounts of the same creation. They're not all taken as literal doctrinal expositions.


Compare Genesis ch. one.

P.S. Identification of characters:

ELOHIM: God

Jehovah: Jesus

Michael: Archangel

And that's a whole different story.

Is your modus operandi really just to reject every thread's topic and hijack them to just introduce your own pet topics? C'mon, dude. That kinda **** is for kids.

[Russ]

So that means this thread is now up for grabs?

I would like to see LDS theology discussed, presented and exposed. Same old M.O. for the last 10 years, because those who are investigating LDSism have a right to know what they're signing up for.

As an aside and an example, you never told me that only married Mormons are eligible for eternal life; which is what deep down Mormonism teaches.


This isn't isn't theology, this is a temple presentation. It's a rhetorical device, not doctrine. I would think you would know this. After all, the standard works give four different accounts of the same creation. They're not all taken as literal doctrinal expositions.

That's an interesting statement. As far as I've been told by other Mormons, the temple endowment is truth. Profound truth and nothing but the LDS truth. Are you attempting to downplay the importance of the endowment?


Is your modus operandi really just to reject every thread's topic and hijack them to just introduce your own pet topics? C'mon, dude. That kinda **** is for kids.

As I told you, the author of this thread is already discussing this same topic in another thread. How many threads does he need? Let's talk about LDSism.

[maklelan]

I would like to see LDS theology discussed, presented and exposed.

Then start your own thread, man. I know you know how. Don't pull this kindergarten garbage.


Same old M.O. for the last 10 years, because those who are investigating LDSism have a right to know what they're signing up for.

As an aside and an example, you never told me that only married Mormons are eligible for eternal life; which is what deep down Mormonism teaches.

I don't recall ever being asked. If it was on the other board, you're probably on my ignore list, given your proclivity for the kinda garbage you're pulling here. Don't you teach deep down that only people who accept your perspective of Christ are eligible for salvation? How barbaric.


That's an interesting statement. As far as I've been told by other Mormons, the temple endowment is truth. Profound truth and nothing but the LDS truth. Are you attempting to downplay the importance of the endowment?

No. Are you attempting to tell me what I believe from an obviously deficient antagonistic perspective? I sincerely hope not.


As I told you, the author of this thread is already discussing this same topic in another thread. How many threads does he need? Let's talk about LDSism.

Grow up and start your own thread. If it's a duplicate then have it removed, but you don't get to just hijack it.

[baptizedinChrist]

That's an interesting statement. As far as I've been told by other Mormons, the temple endowment is truth. Profound truth and nothing but the LDS truth. Are you attempting to downplay the importance of the endowment?

Interesting indeed. These "truths" are supposed to be "sacred" and "eternal" truths. How can they be easily dismissed? I also find it odd how the person didn't provide any official statement from the authorities of the LDS Church to substantiate his opinions.

[nrajeff]

I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation, and what was God's preeminent creation?

Russ has stated that Evangelicals believe that God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). And Russ has stated that Evangelicals believe that His first "creation" (or "procreation") was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Russ has stated that Evangelicals believe that God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). And Russ has stated that Evangelicals believe that His first "creation" (or "procreation") was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus.

Where does he come up with this stuff?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Genesis 1:1 :: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.


In the beginning of what?




Does He have one?

I guess if you think rocks are as important to God as people, then you would say God has no preeminent creation.

[maklelan]

[COLOR="Navy"]Interesting indeed. These "truths" are supposed to be "sacred" and "eternal" truths.

Can you please cite the publication where the narrative of the endowment ceremony is claimed to be historical truth? I know you're not conflating the principles communicated by a literary narrative with the literal historicity of the narrative itself, so you must have some publication of which I'm unaware that states that the narrative itself is historically accurate. Can you cite it for me please?

[Russ]

...without the tones of "garbage" being hurled at your opponent?

[Russ]

Can you please cite the publication where the narrative of the endowment ceremony is claimed to be historical truth? I know you're not conflating the principles communicated by a literary narrative with the literal historicity of the narrative itself, so you must have some publication of which I'm unaware that states that the narrative itself is historically accurate. Can you cite it for me please?

Do you mean to say that the endowment isn't true?

Are you hijacking this thread to defend the endowment?

[maklelan]

...without the tones of "garbage" being hurled at your opponent?

I've yet to see you speak with even a moderate level of vitriol about Mormonism. You're on full throttle all the time. Don't pretend for a second you want to avoid being condescending.

[maklelan]

Do you mean to say that the endowment isn't true?

I know you know how to read, and yet you seem to be trying to convince me with all your soul that it still slips your grasp. What did I say about the principles being communicated by the literary composition of the temple ceremony?


Are you hijacking this thread to defend the endowment?

This is just as asinine as I've seen. I'm playing along with your hijacking and now you want to pretend I'm hijacking the thread? C'mon, dude, this is pathetic.

[Russ]

I've yet to see you speak with even a moderate level of vitriol about Mormonism. You're on full throttle all the time. Don't pretend for a second you want to avoid being condescending.

Nah, not full-throttle. I'm getting too old to go wide open. ****n head gaskets, burnt valves, burnt pistons, et. al, that ain't no fun. :-)

Just the truth, maklelan.

That's what we all want most, isn't it. No one wants to be ripped off by their car mechanic.

Is it true that only married Mormons can receive eternal life?

That's a thing which will cause a Bible student to shake his head every time.

[maklelan]

Nah, not full-throttle. I'm getting too old to go wide open. ****n head gaskets, burnt valves, burnt pistons, et. al, that ain't no fun. :-)

Just the truth, maklelan.

That's what we all want most, isn't it. No one wants to be ripped off by their car mechanic.

Is it true that only married Mormons can receive eternal life?

That's a thing which will cause a Bible student to shake his head every time.

No, it's not true. As Spencer W. Kimball famously explained (apparently your anti-Mormon websites failed to mention this), unmarried people who live their lives the best they can and were never blessed with the opportunity to get married will not be denied the celestial kingdom.

[Russ]

I know you know how to read, and yet you seem to be trying to convince me with all your soul that it still slips your grasp. What did I say about the principles being communicated by the literary composition of the temple ceremony?

Ah haz gon bak n' red it agin. U sed:


Can you please cite the publication where the narrative of the endowment ceremony is claimed to be historical truth? I know you're not conflating the principles communicated by a literary narrative with the literal historicity of the narrative itself, so you must have some publication of which I'm unaware that states that the narrative itself is historically accurate. Can you cite it for me please?

It seemz dat yer suggestin' dat the narrative ain't historikally akerate. U sed in part, "I'm unaware that states that the narrative itself is historically accurate."

Hep me git on da same pagee.

Thanks ya,

Vee Pee ah Mizzipi.

Shoedog, a fiend o' mine, iz Prezdint, but he's on da road rite now so I'll call him on da cell phone n' see if'n he wantz ta call ya. Gotta number?

But rite now I gotz to go eat sum dinner.

P.S. I had to lok up "conflating."

My wife is making me a perty afghan of conflatin' colours. Life is like a box of chocolates, ain't it?

[baptizedinChrist]

Can you please cite the publication where the narrative of the endowment ceremony is claimed to be historical truth? I know you're not conflating the principles communicated by a literary narrative with the literal historicity of the narrative itself, so you must have some publication of which I'm unaware that states that the narrative itself is historically accurate. Can you cite it for me please?

So, parts of the LDS temple ceremony are not true? They're just parables? Can we have an authoritative source that confirms this?

[Russ]

No, it's not true. As Spencer W. Kimball famously explained (apparently your anti-Mormon websites failed to mention this), unmarried people who live their lives the best they can and were never blessed with the opportunity to get married will not be denied the celestial kingdom.

Definitely, according to (let's get real serious here and "stuff," ahem hhrrmmpphh), only married Mormons receive eternal life, that life which is described by Mormons as continuing the family unit in the eternities.

You're not dealing with a rookie, Maklelan. lol

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375

[Russ]

Russ has stated that Mormon theology would have us believe/B]that God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). And Russ has stated that [B]Evangelicals believe that His first "creation" (or "procreation") was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus.

Appropriate edit of your words. :-)

Can we talk about it?

[baptizedinChrist]

Definitely, according to (let's get real serious here and "stuff," ahem hhrrmmpphh), only married Mormons receive eternal life, that life which is described by Mormons as continuing the family unit in the eternities.

You're not dealing with a rookie, Maklelan. lol

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375

Notice the equivocation, Russ? Our Mormon friend tells us that those who are not married will inherit the celestial kingdom. Yet, no one said they won't. What's been said is that they will not inherit eternal life. Does our Mormon friend not realize that the two are not the same? Are we non-Mormons going to have to correct him regarding his own beliefs? Or, will he be prideful enough not to acquiesce to such a humiliating scenario and actually come out and be clear about the beliefs of the LDS Church as you have been?

[Russ]

Where does he come up with this stuff?

Some LDS put words in the mouths of others.

LDS theology would have us believe that God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as brothers and sisters.

It's my hope that you'll understand why Christians have difficulty understanding and accepting such theology as Christian.

[baptizedinChrist]

In the beginning of what?

The beginning.


I guess if you think rocks are as important to God as people, then you would say God has no preeminent creation.

Ok. So, people. Anything else? Are you achieving your end by asking us these questions?

[Russ]

Notice the equivocation, Russ? Our Mormon friend tells us that those who are not married will inherit the celestial kingdom. Yet, no one said they won't. What's been said is that they will not inherit eternal life. Does our Mormon friend not realize that the two are not the same? Are we non-Mormons going to have to correct him regarding his own beliefs? Or, will he be prideful enough not to acquiesce to such a humiliating scenario and actually come out and be clear about the beliefs of the LDS Church as you have been?



All good LDS members know that only married Mormons will receive eternal life according to LDS laws, ordinances and principles.

*shrug*

[maklelan]

Ah haz gon bak n' red it agin. U sed:


It seemz dat yer suggestin' dat the narrative ain't historikally akerate. U sed in part, "I'm unaware that states that the narrative itself is historically accurate."

Hep me git on da same pagee.

Thanks ya,

Vee Pee ah Mizzipi.

Shoedog, a fiend o' mine, iz Prezdint, but he's on da road rite now so I'll call him on da cell phone n' see if'n he wantz ta call ya. Gotta number?

But rite now I gotz to go eat sum dinner.

P.S. I had to lok up "conflating."

My wife is making me a perty afghan of conflatin' colours. Life is like a box of chocolates, ain't it?

No sincere response to my criticism, just latching on to my sarcasm in your attempt to evade.

[maklelan]

Definitely, according to (let's get real serious here and "stuff," ahem hhrrmmpphh), only married Mormons receive eternal life, that life which is described by Mormons as continuing the family unit in the eternities.

You're not dealing with a rookie, Maklelan. lol

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375

Evidently I am, since you seem to think that thread addresses what I referenced, and that Bruce R. McKonkie's non-approved book trumps Spencer Kimball. I understand that within the world of anti-Mormonism you're no doubt a pro, but in the real world you're still woefully unprepared to deal with the facts.

[maklelan]

All good LDS members know that only married Mormons will receive eternal life according to LDS laws, ordinances and principles.

*shrug*

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Not very common, but it still doesn't make up for ignoring what the prophet of the church has said about the question. You're a true rookie.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Genesis 1:1 :: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.


In the beginning of what?




Does He have one?

I guess if you think rocks are as important to God as people, then you would say God has no preeminent creation.

[HickPreacher]

The Lord (Jehovah) made Heavens of the Heavens and the angels first-- they were a direct creation-- brought forth from Jehovah's command- they were not procreated-



Psalms 148:1-5:
1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not p***.

Psalms 33: 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.


Afterward these angels are called the Sons of God ( in an unfalled state).-- they were already created at the time of the physical creation of the Earth.


*** 38: 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The Angels worship Jehovah as creator-- Jehovah created the heaven of the heavens--


Neh. 9 6 Thou, even thou, art LORD (Jehovah) alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

The beginning.

You aren't really sure of what "The beginning" really means.




Ok. So, people. Anything else? Are you achieving your end by asking us these questions?

Great. We agree. People are more important than rocks.

Do you therefore agree that some creations are more valuable and important than others?

[HickPreacher]

There are several beginnings--------------


When we look at the first paragraph in Genesis--



1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This was after the angels were created.

God created the heavens of the heavens-- then the angels-- then the earth.

The angels needed a place to dwell-- so it was made before the angels.

And it was the Lord (Jehovah) who created the heaven of the heavens.

Angels and Jehovah are not of the same generation at all. Jehovah could not have been a birthed son of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother if no heaven to be born in to existed.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

There are several beginnings--------------


I tend to agree with this idea of several beginnings. When we use the word "beginning" it does not necessarily mean the one and only beginning.

[alanmolstad]

I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation, ?.....

and the answer is - "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth"

[Pa Pa]

God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). His first "creation" (or "procreation"), says LDSism, was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus. Satan was "procreated" sometime after.

...trying to keep it real and on topic with LDS discussion.

Good to see you have not changed...nice rude diversion. I truly have not missed you or CARM.

[Pa Pa]

There are several beginnings--------------


When we look at the first paragraph in Genesis--




This was after the angels were created.

God created the heavens of the heavens-- then the angels-- then the earth.

The angels needed a place to dwell-- so it was made before the angels.

And it was the Lord (Jehovah) who created the heaven of the heavens.

Angels and Jehovah are not of the same generation at all. Jehovah could not have been a birthed son of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother if no heaven to be born in to existed.
JEHOVAH bin Elohiem? So you do not believe he is the Son of God?

[TheSword99]

JEHOVAH bin Elohiem? So you do not believe he is the Son of God?

No, it is you and your lds pals who do not believe that Jesus is God the Son.

[James Banta]

No, it is you and your lds pals who do not believe that Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus is the Son of God because of the flesh. This doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God, and that He has always been God. That is the point that the LDS can't accept.. As members of the Church you and I know that Jesus is many things. He is God, He is the Son of God, and he is the Son of man.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

The Lord (Jehovah) made Heavens of the Heavens and the angels first-- they were a direct creation-- brought forth from Jehovah's command- they were not procreated-





Afterward these angels are called the Sons of God ( in an unfalled state).-- they were already created at the time of the physical creation of the Earth.



The Angels worship Jehovah as creator-- Jehovah created the heaven of the heavens--

Actually, Wisdom was the first of His works.

NIV
Proverbs 8:
"22"The Lord brought me forth as the first
of his works, before his deeds of old;
23I was appointed from eternity, from the
beginning, before the world began.
24When there were no oceans, I was
given birth, when there were no springs
abounding with water;
25before the mountains were settled in
place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27I was there when he set the heavens
in place, when he marked out the
horizon on the face of the deep,
28when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the
deep,

The Question is, who was Wisdom

NIV
1st Corinthians
22Jews demand miraculous signs and
Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach Christ crucified: a
stumbling block to Jews and foolishness
to Gentiles,
24but to those whom God has called,
both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power
of God and the wisdom of God....

[RealFakeHair]

Actually, Wisdom was the first of His works.


The Question is, who was Wisdom

NIV
1st Corinthians
22Jews demand miraculous signs and
Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach Christ crucified: a
stumbling block to Jews and foolishness
to Gentiles,
24but to those whom God has called,
both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power
of God and the wisdom of God....

And all this time I thought it was me.

I am the First and the Last. Lets see, both Jesus and God were called the First and the Last, and I was somewhere in the middle.

[alanmolstad]

Wisdom at Proverbs 8 is female...

[Pa Pa]

God's first act, after being a mere mortal but thereafter becoming deity by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles, was to take a wife (or wives D&C 132). His first "creation" (or "procreation"), says LDSism, was Jesus Christ where it's said that God (Elohim) and Mother God "begat" Jesus. Satan was "procreated" sometime after.

...trying to keep it real and on topic with LDS discussion.

I can see your first act is to deflect from answering. So at least there are still some constants in the Universe. I think maybe his first act in the reformation was to call John Calvin to lead the souls of so many to hell, and you to Salt Lake...do you just har*** the Mormons there or Catholics as well. You know in the early Christian Church Russ, you could just kill us. Thoses must have been the days!

[Pa Pa]

No, it is you and your lds pals who do not believe that Jesus is God the Son.

That is without a doubt an overt lie about what we believe. :( Heartbreaking.

[alanmolstad]

Wisdom at Proverbs 8 is female...I just thought it needed to be pointed out....

I know a lot of Bible students read the Proverbs 8 stuff out of context and come away thinking it might have been talking about Christ.....


It was not...

Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus.....

[MacG]

That is without a doubt an overt lie about what we believe. :( Heartbreaking.

The CJCLDS really believes Jesus is God the Son second person of the Trinity? The Trinty where the Holy Spirit is a person? Because that is what he meant.

Perhaps you misread the comment?

[TrueBlue?]

I just thought it needed to be pointed out....

I know a lot of Bible students read the Proverbs 8 stuff out of context and come away thinking it might have been talking about Christ.....


It was not...

Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus.....

So who was the one who discovered that every christian apologist and scholar for the first several centuries of Christian history were wrong. Even in the debates at Nicaea no one questioned whether or not Christ was the wisdom being spoken of in Prov. 8:22 but whether He was created or begotten.

[James Banta]

And by the work of the Holy Spirit they came up with the right answer.. He is begotten not created..

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father. (Nicene Creed)


Would you like to see wording is LDS scripture that was changed by Smith years after it was said that the translation was made by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man? The Nicene Creed made no such claim. It was a way for illiterate men to memorize spiritually supported doctrines and have them with them always. After all no where in the Bible does it teach that Jesus was created. It does however say that He was begotten. IHS jim

[Pa Pa]

The CJCLDS really believes Jesus is God the Son second person of the Trinity? The Trinty where the Holy Spirit is a person? Because that is what he meant.

Perhaps you misread the comment?
Yes...this a interesting topic indeed. We say he is the "Son of God"; one says we do not the other says we believe God the Father has sex with Mary. Quite a racket you guys have built. See Mosiah 5: 7...if the fact the whole book will make it clear and could pull many out of darkness.

[TrueBlue?]

And by the work of the Holy Spirit they came up with the right answer.. He is begotten not created..

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father. (Nicene Creed)


Would you like to see wording is LDS scripture that was changed by Smith years after it was said that the translation was made by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man? The Nicene Creed made no such claim. It was a way for illiterate men to memorize spiritually supported doctrines and have them with them always. After all no where in the Bible does it teach that Jesus was created. It does however say that He was begotten. IHS jim

Joseph Smith has nothing to do with my point. The information and ideas i am presenting come from Christian sources outside of the LDS.

Create, Begotten, are the same to me, but if it makes you feel better we can use Begotten.

be·get
be·got·ten
1.
(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2.
to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begotten

1. spawn, sire, breed, father. 2. occasion, engender, effect, generate



Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?

I think we both feel comfortable with definition #2.

[MacG]

Yes...this a interesting topic indeed. We say he is the "Son of God"; one says we do not the other says we believe God the Father has sex with Mary. Quite a racket you guys have built. See Mosiah 5: 7...if the fact the whole book will make it clear and could pull many out of darkness.

'Yes" is an interesting answer that you gave as to the CJCLDS belie that the definition of the Holy Spirit being a person...

Having read Mosiah 5:7 I see that you refer to OUR adoption as Sons OF God to intimate that Jesus was also adopted whereas God the Son (preincarnate) we speak of had no need for adoption as He considered it not robbery to be equal with God prior to his incarnation, biblically speaking of course. This as I understand it, is not TCJCLDS doctrine. Am I mistaken?

[James Banta]

Joseph Smith has nothing to do with my point. The information and ideas i am presenting come from Christian sources outside of the LDS.

Create, Begotten, are the same to me, but if it makes you feel better we can use Begotten.


Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?

I think we both feel comfortable with definition #2.

I have no problem with any of then.. No where does it indicate that Jesus was ever made, the Creed stands undiminished. After it says Jesus was begotten just never made. All you have done it to confirm what the scripture and the creed teach.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

I have no problem with any of then.. No where does it indicate that Jesus was ever made, the Creed stands undiminished. After it says Jesus was begotten just never made. All you have done it to confirm what the scripture and the creed teach.. IHS jim

I was hoping you could answer the question according to the definition given.


Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?

[Billyray]

Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?


Jesus has been eternally God as God the Son.

[James Banta]

I said I had no problem with the definition. There is no doubt that Jesus took on flesh, and that by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).. Just what isn't answered about your question? Should I instead cancel all that Jesus taught about who the Father is? That He is Spirit (John 4:24). That a Spirit has not body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). That the Holy Spirit though the apostle Paul taught that the Father is invisible and only seen in the Person of the Son, Jesus (Colossians 1:15). Again just how was my answer not a full and complete answer in the light of scripture? How is being Begotten by a god with a body as tangible as man even close to conforming to scripture. How is it Biblical to teach that the Father begot Jesus the same as any mortal father begets their children? Mormonism likes to stand outside scripture and take potshots at those of us that stand inside it's authority.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

I said I had no problem with the definition. There is no doubt that Jesus took on flesh, and that by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).. Just what isn't answered about your question? Should I instead cancel all that Jesus taught about who the Father is? That He is Spirit (John 4:24). That a Spirit has not body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). That the Holy Spirit though the apostle Paul taught that the Father is invisible and only seen in the Person of the Son, Jesus (Colossians 1:15). Again just how was my answer not a full and complete answer in the light of scripture? How is being Begotten by a god with a body as tangible as man even close to conforming to scripture. How is it Biblical to teach that the Father begot Jesus the same as any mortal father begets their children? Mormonism likes to stand outside scripture and take potshots at those of us that stand inside it's authority.. IHS jim

You do realize I was speaking of Prov. 8:22-30. This is about Christ being begotten at all. Regardless about how it was done. As you can read I was speaking of the above verses not Christ coming to earth. Now Christ being the first of God the Father's works, begotten of the Father. Now what was the state of Christ before He was begotten of the Father?

[TrueBlue?]

Jesus has been eternally God as God the Son.

So if there was no change, nothing different, then why beget Him? If nothing changed then it seems kind of an un-necessary act you think?

You do realize that when ancient Christians such as those at Nicene who formed the Nicene Creed, did believe that Christ was begotten of the Father as stated in Prov. 8:22-30.

[MacG]

You do realize I was speaking of Prov. 8:22-30. This is about Christ being begotten at all. Regardless about how it was done. As you can read I was speaking of the above verses not Christ coming to earth. Now Christ being the first of God the Father's works, begotten of the Father. Now what was the state of Christ before He was begotten of the Father?

I did not realize pre-incarnate Jesus was a girl.

[alanmolstad]

I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation, ?
.


"In the beginning" .....(before anything else, at the very start of,)
"God created the heavens and the earth"........(the answer as to what was made first)

[alanmolstad]

So who was the one who discovered that every christian apologist and scholar for the first several centuries of Christian history were wrong. Even in the debates at Nicaea no one questioned whether or not Christ was the wisdom being spoken of in Prov. 8:22 but whether He was created or begotten.
I dont know much about that kind of stuff,

But I do know the Bible,and I know that when you read proverbs 8 you find that its talking about a female.....


Thus, its easy to see its not talking about Christ...(Christ is male)

[alanmolstad]

I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation,
The answer is "the heavens"

[alanmolstad]

as for the question, "What is God's greatest creation as found in the Bible?...


The answer is, "His final one......woman."

[alanmolstad]

so to review:

The first thing the Bible lists created by God is "The heavens"

The last thing, (and therefore likely the greatest thing listed) is, "the woman"