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jade84116
03-09-2009, 03:05 PM
Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?:)

Trinity
03-09-2009, 03:09 PM
Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?:)

No. :)

Trinity

jade84116
03-09-2009, 03:20 PM
Let me see if I understand. It views it's church as the true church, rejects salvation by grace through faith alone, puts the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, and engages in one false doctrine after another and it's not a cult. What's wrong with that picture?:)

Trinity
03-09-2009, 03:41 PM
Let me see if I understand. It views it's church as the true church, rejects salvation by grace through faith alone, puts the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, and engages in one false doctrine after another and it's not a cult. What's wrong with that picture?:)

Prejudices. Sometimes people do not understand the vocabulary of the other traditions (churches). They are seeing things, the things that are not there. The Orthodox believe that the salvation is a grace of God, but this grace would also produce fruits. There is compatibility between the grace and a behavior that mirror this grace.

Trinity

TimLScheffer
06-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Eastern Orthodox put the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, ...
Is this a true statement Trinity?

Columcille
07-21-2009, 07:33 PM
Is this a true statement Trinity?

Like the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox recognize that the bible is part of the tradition. Can you produce for me any canon of N.T. scripture by early Church fathers in the second and third century that agrees with our current 27 books? Some rejected Hebrews, some rejected Revelations, some rejected Jude, some rejected 2 Peter, some included the Shepherd of Hermas, etc... . While the books deemed as inspired were written after Christ by people who witnessed him, their is no consistent individual in the Church whose has such authority. Only the collective body of Christ, his Church as run by those that preserved the Scriptures and was ecclesiastically handed the authority from a lineage direct to the Apostles seems much more weighty than some post-Reformationist rationalism that made Luther reject James and other N.T. books.

Other than that, you would have to be more specific about what you mean by putting Tradition ahead of Scripture.

TimLScheffer
08-01-2009, 08:27 AM
OK, more specificly, where the NIV or King James disagree with their Tradtion, which one reigns as the Authority?

Columcille
09-02-2009, 10:56 PM
OK, more specificly, where the NIV or King James disagree with their Tradtion, which one reigns as the Authority?

NIV or KJV are translations. I think perhaps you are mistaken about "Tradition" with "textual criticism." I would not be surprised if some autographs were still floating around in the first few centuries of the Christian Church from which the NIV nor the KJV can claim any special criticism... I will ***ume you are a KJV only--Textus Receptus preferred individual and would, if holding that position, would claim further a divine textual criticism that rejects any scientific approach or a social and linguististical comparison between the various existing texts.

Tee Ar @ FB
06-13-2010, 07:12 PM
According to Dr. Martin's putative hand-picked successor, old churches are not called cults. Dr. Martin called the Roman Church apostate, according to Robert A. Morey, the author of "Is Eastern Orthodoxy Christian?", a long-time friend of Dr. Martin. The latter instead spoke of "The Cult of Liberalism," a movement within the mostly apostate Mainline Denominations
(-Dr. Martin's ***ociate radio-host, Prof. Craig Hawkins [ http://www.ApologeticsINFO.org ]).

Dr. Morey's Doctorate of Ministry in Comparative Religion was conferred by Westminster seminary in Philadelphia, PA (whose Pres. was J. Gresham Machen; Francis A. Schaeffer was Dr. Morey's Professor).

A short description of the book:
http://shop.faithdefenders.com/product_p/books-colon-iseochristian.htm
A longer list of contents (more articles @ search engine, Right Column):
http://biblicalthought.com/blog/is-eastern-orthodoxy-christian/

The E.O. priest, who interrupted Dr. Morey's church, demanding the retraction of the book from publication (http://biblicalthought.com/blog/o-happy-day/), reminds me of Alexander the Great protesting to Aristotle about A's divulgence of the Mystery Religion by which Al. claimed to attain victories
(-Stanley Monteith, M.D., retired [http://www.RadioLiberty.com], via KBRT-AM [http://www.kbrt740.com], Sat., 12 p.m. P.T.).

On R.M.'s radio program circa 2003, a caller, himself a member of the EOC, didn't acknowledge what R.M. said that a high-ranking E.O. clergyman said. The latter said that non-E.O. falsely suppose that E.O. members mean that they seek to be more godly when they say that they are being deified. Frank Schaeffer, Junior admits that he seeks to become God.

Non-Greek people are not as accepted in that Organization as ethnic Greeks are.

Columcille
06-13-2010, 09:57 PM
Welcome to the forum. Not sure I follow your point. Seems a hogpog of different points. I do not follow R.M. radio program. The individuals you describe as EO members sound out of place. They do not sound like run of the mill EO members that I know. What I have been taught by my EO chaplin, does not sound close to what is being presented in your short clips.

chris123
06-28-2010, 05:27 AM
wow what a great session of answering the questions. i like it very much.and today i am here unintentionally but next time i will be here witth a great question that will be very beneficial for all of these posters. any how wait me and i will miss all of yoiu people.

ErikErik
03-30-2011, 05:56 AM
Let me see if I understand. It views it's church as the true church, rejects salvation by grace through faith alone, puts the church and tradition ahead of the Bible, and engages in one false doctrine after another and it's not a cult. What's wrong with that picture?:)


Yep, it certainly falls under the guidelines of a cult.

pilgrim1411
08-25-2011, 06:51 PM
Read "BIBLE, CHURCH AND TRADITION", by Florovsky to get a proper Orthodox understanding of the natures of Scripture, the Church and Tradition.

alanmolstad
08-25-2011, 08:38 PM
Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

Do they teach the trinity?

Columcille
08-26-2011, 03:01 PM
Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

Do they teach the trinity?

I know that the Eastern Orthodox believe in the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they do belief one is saved by grace through faith and they are Trinitarian. However, your second question does appear to me loaded with a type of interpretation from some p***ages from St. Paul that does not accept interpretations from other p***ages say from St. James and others where there necessitates works coming out of that grace recieved. The works do not provide salvation, they are an indicator to building one's character in the image of God we are to live. Even St. Paul continues on in Ephesians 2 and states, "For we are his workmanship, created for good works in Christ." You cannot expect doing works of evil and ***ume your "faith," trust in, God is going to give you a free ride for a cheap grace used to be a dirty welcoming mat, a spit in God's figurative face while saying you love him in word but in action anything but. It is probably a semantical thing, for I think if you understand the proper relation that works has in relation to grace and faith, we are not far from each other.

pilgrim1411
08-26-2011, 03:10 PM
Do theye believe in the resurrection of the Lord jesus Christ?

That he died for our sins, and because of his blood we are saved by Grace though faith?

Do they teach the trinity?

You have got to be kidding me. We are the ones who gave you those doctrines. Study the history of the Church. Study the writings of the Fathers, the canons, creeds and confessions. All of the orthodox (small "o") doctrines in your faith, are residuals from the Orthodox Church that your leaders carried into your own particular brand of "Christianity" from us.

alanmolstad
08-26-2011, 06:38 PM
However, your second question does appear to me loaded with a type of interpretation ...

I was not really asking what you believed...I was asking what the church in question believes?....

Do they believe in what i have stated yes or no?

alanmolstad
08-26-2011, 06:39 PM
You have got to be kidding me......
Again, Im not at all interested in your views..

I was asking what the church in question believes and teaches?

Columcille
08-26-2011, 08:38 PM
Again, Im not at all interested in your views..

I was asking what the church in question believes and teaches?

Since pilgrim is Orthodox, he is telling you what the Church believes and teaches. I wish he would quote more from his bishops, patriarches, and the councils of his Church to support it... but he is quite right that the "orthodox" beliefs that mainline Protestants and all of Christendom hold stem from the Orthodox Church... I should hope he would recognize it as the "Catholic" Church as is recited in the Nicene Creed and understands his history that even the Roman Popes were part of that history even long after much of the early era of the Church until 1054 when the tensions became too great. I can find agreement with him in the 7 Ecumenical Councils and much of the important regional council decisions.

What I perhaps get, that Pilgrim may or may seem to understand from your criticism, is that there are individuals in the communion who do not abide by the teachings of the Church. Just because someone claims to be Orthodox, does not mean he adhers completely to Orthodoxy. We call people like this in the Catholic Church to be "Cafeteria Catholics," because they pick and choose what they want to believe. However, I can understand from the catechesis which many seem to forget is that efficientcy in the sacraments is found in obedience to the Church's teachings. People who are participating in the Divine Liturgy and recieving the Eucharist while acting inconsistent with the doctrines and morals of Orthodoxy are eating and drinking the body and blood of the Lord unworthily as 1 Cor. 11.18-19.

For, to begin with, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and to some extent I believe it. Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine. (NRSV, 1 Cor. 11.18-19)

When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a month (changed from year). But the instructions given by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 11.33 "So then, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, wait for one another." The time frequentcy of the instruction from the beginning of this p***age in verse 17 with the detailed instruction of the use of the bread and wine and of self reflection and proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes... Protestants don't need self-reflection but once a month, very rarely do they do it every time they come together. At least in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches, self-reflection when coming together for M*** or Divine Liturgy is a daily event.


There alanmolstad, I corrected my mistakes. I made bold the point within the paragraph that would have reflected the whole. It was an inconsistency, the fact you only seemed to see "year" and stopped right there and not seen where I know have made bold should have been an indicator that the time was not in agreement. You know as well as I, that there is probably no church who does communion once a year. Reflecting on the bold type now, I would rather your criticism of the first sentence be conjointed with the later. I would have expected you to have read the whole paragraph and stated instead, "don't you mean "once a month?" I don't know your frame of mind in your criticism, but my perception is you didn't read the whole paragraph.

alanmolstad
08-26-2011, 11:41 PM
When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a year. .


what church does it only once a year?.....

alanmolstad
08-27-2011, 06:25 AM
When the Protestants come together, most only do the Lord's supper once a year.

I have to again ask what church only does the Lord's supper once a year?

Columcille
08-27-2011, 07:24 AM
I have to again ask what church only does the Lord's supper once a year?

If you read the whole paragraph, you would notice that I stated the word month. That sentence was a misspeak. The point of my argument still stands. If all you want to do is point out grammar errors and mistakes in an attempt to discredit the valid points of an argument, then I don't see how you can be so confident in your own worldview.

alanmolstad
08-27-2011, 07:43 AM
I cant read your mind Columcille...

You always had the ability to edit or come back later and make your point more clear....did you?

I cant read your mind and so when you posted "year" and that's was all there was to go on...I took you at your word.

I don't think this is a grammar mistake at all...nor a spelling mistake.

However it is an editing mistake.

Please try to look at it that way, and understand that unless you post what you mean, I will ***ume you mean what you post...

alanmolstad
08-27-2011, 07:50 AM
Protestants don't need self-reflection but once a month, .
As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

"Self-reflection" seems to be a term used to talk about a very personal moment...

Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

Columcille
08-27-2011, 08:09 AM
As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?

"Self-reflection" seems to be a term used to talk about a very personal moment...

Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

The self reflection is tied to 1 Corinthians 11.27-29:
"Whomever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves."

Columcille
08-27-2011, 08:17 AM
As a person that leans to the more protestant point of view I don't understand where this "rule" about my only needing a once a month self-reflection is written down at?


As far as I know, the practice of the Lord's table is practiced once a month by most Protestant churches to be something either practiced for such a long time that it is an unwritten rule. It is just common practice, perhaps seen in the same manner as two opposite sex couples who after living together for years with children and never been married are by some states considered common-law marriage or cohabitation as legal proof of marriage even without a ceremony or certificate. There might be a written rule in the by-laws or even within the perameters of how to conduct the service itself.

Columcille
08-27-2011, 08:25 AM
Are you talking about an organized time of self-reflection during a church service?

Is it your understanding that guys like me only have private moments of self-reflection when its a listed part of a church service, and comes before one thing on the list and after another?...LOL

Based on 1 Cor. 11, which I stated earlier without much comment, as well as the practice as it was recieved and handed down, the Church has practiced the Eucharistist service almost daily when they got together. The Church is not based on individuals, but as a community. Hebrews tells us not to forsake the ***embly as some have done. Self-reflection is a private affair, but is connected to the community of believers through the Lord's Table. I'll comment later on the historicity of this practice by searching my logos bible software in the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I should think that people like Clement, who are mentioned directly by Paul in his epistles, and other disciples of the 12 apostles should be very reliable in terms of their continuing the instructions handed down to them.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,44 because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death45 in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,46 that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of47 them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the p***ion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.48 But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.


Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (89) (Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrneans 1 Smy 7). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the ins***ution55 of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper56 Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the mul***ude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.57


(ibid. 1 Smy 8).

Columcille
08-27-2011, 09:03 AM
5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned.254 But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit.255 For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread,256 but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (486) (Ireneas, "Against Heresies 4.18.5). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

alanmolstad
08-27-2011, 09:25 AM
self reflection is a private matter.

now a denomination can highlight the need for self-reflection by making sure it is made note of and practiced during a church service.

But being a very private affair it is really left to the person to do on their own....even if kneeling at a time set aside for it within a church service.

I believe it was Jesus who gave us the idea that a time of self-reflection is private.

jesus gave many examples of men praying to God and dealing with their own sins during this very private moment .

Can you do self-reflection in front of other people,,,can you do it during an organized church service?...oh yes.

But Jesus also taught of the need to get alone, to go into your room and lock the door, and there find the privacy too.

Is there anything wrong with a denomination highlighting the Christian concept for self-reflection by adding a special place for it during a worship hour?....NO!

I believe that Jesus also makes a strong case for taking a moment to have some self-reflection before you bring your gift to the Lord.

As most churches have a moment of offering during every service, this would be the reason that before every offering in each Protestant church I have attended that there is the moment of sefl-reflection listed in the church bulletin.


So to sum it all up:

Moments of self-reflection are common amoung members of the prodiatant church as well as other branches of the christian church.

Some churches make special notie of the need for self-reflection by including a set-aside moment for people to carry out that during the worship hour.

The time this is done may vary from church to church, and even then it might get moved around.But the fact that Jesus teaches about self-reflection before offering our gifts, (and every church has a moment to bring in the gifts), this leads us to the finding we see in so many Protestant churches of a private moment of reflection before the offering is made....


so .."Self-reflection" is a hallmark of the Protestant church

Columcille
08-27-2011, 10:28 AM
Now all you got to do is tie it to 1 Corinthians 11. Because the self-reflection is specifically tied to the Lord's table in this p***age. As a community of believers, the importance of genuineness and of validity tied the Eucharist with a unified body as Ireneus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and other Ante-Nicene Fathers who knew the Apostles stated. What each Protestant Church does is insignificant if not tied to Scripture nor to the consistency of truth as it was entrusted from the Apostles on through the ages.

pilgrim1411
08-27-2011, 07:24 PM
Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?:)

The question should be: who has the divine authority to answer that question? It certainly isn't western Protestant or Evangelical "Christianity" which is divided into over thirty thousand divergent sects. This would be like the pot calling the kettle black. They don't even have the right to have an opinion. They are so far gone, so far removed from a proper understanding of the original Christian knowledge, that you can't even get a radar beam fixed on them --to use an expression of Walter.

Columcille
08-28-2011, 08:15 PM
The question should be: who has the divine authority to answer that question? It certainly isn't western Protestant or Evangelical "Christianity" which is divided into over thirty thousand divergent sects. This would be like the pot calling the kettle black. They don't even have the right to have an opinion. They are so far gone, so far removed from a proper understanding of the original Christian knowledge, that you can't even get a radar beam fixed on them --to use an expression of Walter.

Pilgrim, the question he asks is addressed to Evangelicals. What do you care of how Evangelicals think about the Orthodox Church? Does not Paul state something about sinners being blinded and doing things that are naturally sinful? In the case of Evangelicals, they do not understand the deposit of faith entrusted to the Apostles and through the Apostles' establishing a succession of bishops. Whether they consider you a cult is one of perception. Your insistence does more harm than good because you fail to reason with them. You are quick to accuse and slow to listen. The better you are at listening to their criticisms, the better able you are to grasp where they misunderstand us departs. You should pray for them and listen to them in hope to have the Spirit speak through you to unveil where their reasoning is faulty. Even Scripture uses reasonings to establish its point, I perceive you to be flying off the handle so to speak. But this is my perception, and perhaps the perception of others. It only in their mind solidifies a cult-like mentality to conform your beliefs to a specific leader... it is like a Mormon deacon sitting in Dr. Walter Martin's forums and stands up and tells all the Mormons it is time to leave because his beliefs were challenged and the deacon felt some might fall away from Mormonism. If Orthodoxy wants to bury its head in the sand at every challenge, which is one reason I have stopped my inquiry into the Orthodox Church, then there is no competent authority to deal with new challenges. At least the Catholic Church has ecumenical councils to face the challenges during the ages... you treat the 7 ecumenical councils with such high regard that no new ecumenical councils are possible because you fail to see the same vibrancy of the Church then as now. However, that is just my perception.

alanmolstad
08-29-2011, 04:35 AM
are all the members of the eastern orthodox as equally insulting to other churches?.....or is this just seen around this forum?


Kinda points out the flaw i see in being a member of that church.....you have to have bad manners.

Not my cup of tea kids.....not my cup of tea.....

alanmolstad
02-26-2012, 12:24 PM
Once again, the idea that in Protestant churches only hold a moment of self-reflection once a month is something I question.

It seems to me that even if the Protestant church service is not dealing that week with a holy meal, that there always is a point during the service for confession of sins and forgiveness.

I have yet to hear of a church weekly service that had zero opportunities to confess our sins?

alanmolstad
02-26-2014, 12:44 PM
self reflection is a very private matter...

while a church may allow a time during the service to have people do self reflection, there is nothing the church can or should do to demand a person do this very private matter.

The idea that a church is the only place where such self reflection is promoted in the bible is a joke.

The best place in my mind for good self reflection is when you are totally and completely "ALONE!"

Then a person has a chance to hear that still, small voice.




Now as for this topic and my view of the eastern orthodox church?.....
My answer is that I dont know too much about that church denomination, however based only on the effects of being a member of that church on some of the posters here, I would suggest not attending for fear of turning into a mean person.

alanmolstad
07-06-2014, 05:54 AM
Is Eastern Orthodoxy a cult? It does seem to fall under the evangelical definition of a cult after all?:)
Before we can tell if that church (or any church) is truly "Christian" or is a "CULT" we have to look at their teachings.

And we dont want to get trapped into thinking that any disagreement on side issues means they must be a false CULT>

So what we need to decide is how the church in question stands on the most important core issues, their core teachings about Christ?



Does the church teach that Christ is God's Son, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity?

Does the church teach that Christ died on a cross, was buried, and was resurrected from the dead?



These two questions will help us know what we are dealing with....for they should tell us if the church we are talking about is "Christian" or is a CULT.....

alanmolstad
04-01-2017, 07:42 AM
yes...I have been to a lot of different types of churches over the years....and in every church that i would call "Christian" there was always a moment where the people were allowed to spend time in self-reflection.

In many of the more modern churches that makes use of music media, they have this moment filled with inspiring music to help the people hush the world around them, and just be with the Lord is quiet contemplation.

alanmolstad
04-23-2017, 09:42 AM
Now recently it was learned that the current Bible Answer man has converted to Eastern Orthodoxy.

this caused a lot of radio listeners to now not being able to hear his radio show due to people pulling the plug on his show.

I think that we here might take this time to go over some of the problem teachings of Hank's new church.

alanmolstad
11-18-2017, 09:58 AM
are all the members of the eastern orthodox as equally insulting to other churches?.....or is this just seen around this forum?


Kinda points out the flaw i see in being a member of that church.....you have to have bad manners.

Not my cup of tea kids.....not my cup of tea.....

there have been only a few members of that church to show up here, or that I have run into in my personal life.
And, for some unknown reason, the manners of each have been sub-par.

Im not sure if this is a common thing to see in most if not all members of that church?
Im not sure if people who are that way to begin with are just drawn to that type of church for some reason?
Im not sure if being a member of that church slants you in that direction?

all I know for sure is that based on the history I have had when dealing with members of that same church is that they tend to have a personality that is not really of a type I enjoy being around.