Any heathen can start a religion

[Christian]

David koresh, william butler, and joseph smith are typical examples.

[DrDavidT]

David koresh, william butler, and joseph smith are typical examples.

don't forget hubbard and scientology and the leader of the children of god David something

[theway]

You mean like Calvin, Luther, John Smyth, Wycliffe, Tyndale, et al.. all of which were considered heretics in a their day. Only two types of religion can claim that they did not start their own. Ones with direct unbroken succession,(Orthodox Christianity) and those that claim a unbroken succession through restoration(Mormons). Meaning all of the Protestant Churches started because of a mortal man or woman.
So like almost all your criticisms of the LDS Church, you only end up exposing your own false religion.
If you insist on continuing using this loser of an argument based on nothing more than a worthless biased opinion, you might want to define the word “heathen”, “religion” who is considered the real founder of the Churches you are criticizing by the people in that religion, and you need to state your own religion.
I know your childish antics never though that far ahead, however I ***ume you are like most “modern” Protestants which claim you do not belong to any religion.
However that begs the question.... if you are OK with people starting a “Bible study group” or “congregation” based on their own unique interpretation of the Bible, why do you care if others do the same and call it a religion???
Smells like jealousy to me...

[Phoenix]

You mean like Calvin, Luther, John Smyth, Wycliffe, Tyndale, et al.. all of which were considered heretics in a their day. Only two types of religion can claim that they did not start their own. Ones with direct unbroken succession,(Orthodox Christianity) and those that claim a unbroken succession through restoration(Mormons). Meaning all of the Protestant Churches started because of a mortal man or woman.
So like almost all your criticisms of the LDS Church, you only end up exposing your own false religion.
If you insist on continuing using this loser of an argument based on nothing more than a worthless biased opinion, you might want to define the word “heathen”, “religion” who is considered the real founder of the Churches you are criticizing by the people in that religion, and you need to state your own religion.
I know your childish antics never though that far ahead, however I ***ume you are like most “modern” Protestants which claim you do not belong to any religion.
However that begs the question.... if you are OK with people starting a “Bible study group” or “congregation” based on their own unique interpretation of the Bible, why do you care if others do the same and call it a religion???
Smells like jealousy to me...

You make some good points, IMO.

[disciple]

Hi Phoenix,

Putting aside the term religion, would you agree that there can be only one truth? Meaning that what
a person or group believes about God is either true or it is not. And if it is truth, time and culture and
beliefs do not change it, it can be knowable by all and it is absolute.

[Christian]

You make some good points, IMO.

Calvin et al whom you listed were considered heretics by HEATHENS a lot like the mormons of today, who had their own 'speshul' manmade religions.

Calvin et al whom you listed were CHRISTIANS who started CHRISTIAN CONGREGATIONS of CHRIST'S CHURCH. Smithy started a new religion, which he STOLE the description "Christian" for.

[Christian]

Hi Phoenix,

Putting aside the term religion, would you agree that there can be only one truth? Meaning that what
a person or group believes about God is either true or it is not. And if it is truth, time and culture and
beliefs do not change it, it can be knowable by all and it is absolute.

If phoenix is a mormon, to answer that HONESTLY would be impossible, imho

[Phoenix]

Hi Phoenix,
Putting aside the term religion, would you agree that there can be only one truth? Meaning that what
a person or group believes about God is either true or it is not. And if it is truth, time and culture and
beliefs do not change it, it can be knowable by all and it is absolute.



So which was the one truth in the Bible--the OT commandment to slaughter those caught in adultery, disrespectful children and gays? Or the NT commandment to forgive, to not kill and not even be angry, etc?

[disciple]

Hello Phoenix,
My question was not really about commandments and the context in which they were given but that what we believe concerning God cannot be relative to a certain group or religion. If something about God is true, it is true for everyone regardless of what someone believes. People can be sincerely wrong. If what is written concerning God in the Old and New Testaments was true it will always be true.

In Gal 1:11-12 Paul said this,” but I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ”.

So, Paul lets us know that he got his information directly from God and if that is true then we can rely on what Paul writes.

In Isaiah 45:22-23 we read the following;

“For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall swear”.

God declares that every knee shall bow only to Him and swear allegiance to Him as the only true God.

Paul writes the same of Jesus in Phil 2:6-11

“ Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”.

In 1 Cor.8:6 Paul writes the following;
“yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live”, using the same words for Lord and God
used in Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one”.

So if these things were true for Paul they are true for everyone.

[alan]

disciple.

You asked a question about , if what people think is true about God can change?

The answer is that what we only know about God is via revelation.
There is no way to learn about God other than God reaching down and showing us something about himself.

So this means that what we know of God in history depends 100% on the revelation God gave men in history.

God does not lie about Himself, but he also does not tell us all about himself as well.

[alan]

Phoenix

You asked a question about how the Old Testament has a lot of stuff called "laws" that are not followed today.

The answer is found in how we are remember there are many different things called "covenants" that happen within the whole Bible story.

Under the different covenants we see different laws that supersede the laws found in the past covenant.

We are not under the laws of the Old Testament covenant.
This does not mean the Old Test laws were wrong, rather it means that the Laws of the New supersede the Laws of the Old.

This is pointed out in the idea of new wine not able to be fit within Old Wineskins.
The old skins had their correct time and place to hold the old wine, but they cant be used at all for the new wine.

The laws of the Old Covenant cant rule the lives of the dead.
Once you are dead, all the laws that ruled the lives of men have no longer any reach over the dead.

This is why we are told we are 'dead in Christ" , and thus well past the reach of the Old Covenant laws to reach us.

[Phoenix]

Thanks for elaborating. I wonder if truth really can be knowable by all.

[Phoenix]

Thanks for taking the time to give that explanation.

[alan]

if at any time you have questions?

Just ask.

[theway]

Hi Phoenix,

Putting aside the term religion, would you agree that there can be only one truth? Meaning that what
a person or group believes about God is either true or it is not. And if it is truth, time and culture and
beliefs do not change it, it can be knowable by all and it is absolute.
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Absolutely, there can only be one truth... however the problem comes in defining "truth".
What may be true today, might not necessarily be true tomorrow.
In other words... it was true that man was spirit only, it is also true that man is now a spirit with a body of flesh and blood, yet it is also true that man can become a god with an exalted body of flesh and bones. Or if you don't like that ****ogy, than if you are sitting on a wooden chair, than it would be truth to say that it is a "chair". however, just a few years ago the truth was that it was a "tree", yet in the future it could be true to say that it is firewood, or worm food, or a club.
Since "truth" can be purely subjective defined by what we see now, or knew was truth, than who's to know what is real or truth?
So the question you should be asking is "what is the "REAL truth".... Like us or the chair, we need to know what iteration are we suppose to be, and once we know what we are supposed to be, what rules or path are we to follow to get us there?
Real Truth provides the answer because real truth is defined by the knowledge of things past, present, and of the future, only knowing all three can a person know real truth.
Only one Being can know real truth, because only one Being knows the past, present and what is to come.
You can say we can know all three by reading the Bible only, however, given that there are so many different versions of truth in which all claim to be based on the Bible we know that is not correct.
That is why we not only need real truth as defined by the Bible, but also as confirmed by the Holy Spirit... without both you can never be really sure of truth.
This is why testimonies and personal revelation from God are just as important as the Bible in determining "real truth".
So seek for that which can be confirmed by both and you will know what is true for yourself.

[alan]

I was reading along to posted comment above, when I came to the following quote -
"This is why testimonies and personal revelation from God are just as important as the Bible in determining "real truth"."

This I may challenge.
I dont even know what iot understood by the use of the term "Testimonies" when saying they are equal to the Bible?

What does that mean>????????


And this other thing you say " personal revelation" is just as important as the Bible in finding truth?
?????


I also may challenge that idea as well...

[alan]

from what I have seen in how people that are just dead wrong typically believe that "God spoke to them", I have come to the conclusion that testimonies and personal revelations , are the worst things to base a search for truth on.


When Paul stood before a congregation and preached, Im sure he had a great testimony and as well a great story about his personal revelation from God...

Yet the people listening to him had to still open their scriptures to learn if the things Paul taught were actually found in the text?

The search for truth is not based on knowing how to tell a great story, or having a tall tale about being "shown this by God", rather it has to start and end with the scriptures.

[theway]

from what I have seen in how people that are just dead wrong typically believe that "God spoke to them", I have come to the conclusion that testimonies and personal revelations , are the worst things to base a search for truth on.
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That is why it is called a "Personal Revelation", because your personal revelation is only applicable to you. So unless that person is someone that you know and trust, than their revelation would be useless to you.
Yet, lets just see if it is true that you actually do receive your truth from the Bible, by you answering this simple question.

"If the Being you know to be God was to reveal to you that your understanding of the Bible was completely wrong, would you believe it?"
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When Paul stood before a congregation and preached, Im sure he had a great testimony and as well a great story about his personal revelation from God...
Yet the people listening to him had to still open their scriptures to learn if the things Paul taught were actually found in the text?
.

Ah.... you left out the part about what happened after they opened the Bible and searched as to whether what Paul taught them was found in the text or true... How about it; what happened after they searched the scriptures?
Answer that ,and it will expose the flaw in your theory.

[alan]

Q "If the Being you know to be God was to reveal to you that your understanding of the Bible was completely wrong, would you believe it?"
.


A.....no

[alan]

'what happened after they opened the Bible and searched as to whether what Paul taught them was found in the text or true...'





" Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. 12As a result, many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men. "


The key words here in this verse that are supporting what Im saying are the words - - "as a result..."

The Berean's searching the scriptures to confirm all of Paul's teachings is the thing that caused the faith of the people to spring to life and grow.


its always this way,..
The search for truth about God starts and ends with the Bible...

[theway]

Q "If the Being you know to be God was to reveal to you that your understanding of the Bible was completely wrong, would you believe it?"


A.....no

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Thanks for at least answering the question and admitting that you completely distrust God, and would only believe in a narrative you made up yourself.
I like this question because it exposes how you really view God and how you let your biases rule your life even if they are proven false.

[alan]

…7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ.

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!

9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!…

[alan]

so, as the verse I have posted above clearly states, it really does not matter that someone was convinced that it was a messenger from God that gave them their personal revelation.

In the end, the revelation has to agree with what we have already received in the New Testament Gospel.

The revelation has to agree,,,

[theway]

'what happened after they opened the Bible and searched as to whether what Paul taught them was found in the text or true...'

" Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. 12As a result, many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men. "

The key words here in this verse that are supporting what Im saying are the words - - "as a result..."

The Berean's searching the scriptures to confirm all of Paul's teachings is the thing that caused the faith of the people to spring to life and grow.

its always this way,..
The search for truth about God starts and ends with the Bible...
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No, the key words in this verse that relate to the question I asked was “MANY of them...” it never says that after they searched the scriptures they ALL found that Paul was speaking the truth, it just says many did. We do not know the percentage that “many” represents or if it is even the majority. I can flip a coin and get it to land heads many times. I guess it’s kinda like saying that Mormons are leaving the Church in “droves” yet I have never gotten an answer from an AntiMormon as to how many or at what percentage is a “drove”
But that’s not really the point, the mere fact that not ALL of them believed Paul after confirming with the Scriptures proves my point.
Just because you are diligent in searching the scriptures, or you know your Bible, it is not a guarantee that you will come away with the truth, it’s a good start, but never a sure thing.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to trust my salvation on a 80% or even a 99% chance that I might be correct. Instead I’ll rest my salvation on a sure thing. A sure thing can only come by personal revelation by way of the Holy Ghost. A revelation of the Holy Ghost will come in such a way that you will not be able to deny it. That is why denial of the Holy Ghost is the only unforgivable sin there is.
If you had ever had a revelation of God you would understand.... otherwise you might as well flip a coin, or take your chance with the Evangelical Salvation lottery.

[alan]

with the scripture as our guide, we dont run the risk of falling for a CULT's claim of special, super-secret , only get it here, type of teachings.

The key is that we understand why people can believe in Paul's teaching???
Was it the cool story Paul had?...no

Was it because Paul claimed to be an Apostle?...no

The reason the people believed was that they took the words of Paul and tested them by the scriptures...

Had the words of Paul been found to be in disagreement with the Text, they would have rejected Paul,



Its this same test I always ask people to put my own words to.
Take what I say, and open your Bible and compare what im saying the text says, to what you find written.

[alan]

The search for the truth of God, always starts and ends with the Scriptures...

[theway]

…7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ.

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!

9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!…
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Ironically, Paul was saying something that was not true... or to state it another way; “an impossibility”. Paul was relying on hyperbole to make a point, he was not trying to create or relay doctrine, which is how you are interpreting it to read. Read the commentaries, even they admit that it would be impossible for God to send an angel to lie to the people, for that would make God culpable in the lie, and therefore a lier. You can easily make mistakes like this when you do not read the verses carefully.

[theway]

so, as the verse I have posted above clearly states, it really does not matter that someone was convinced that it was a messenger from God that gave them their personal revelation.

In the end, the revelation has to agree with what we have already received in the New Testament Gospel.

The revelation has to agree,,,
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Ahhhh.... you do realize don’t you that you just sunk your own argument???
If the Bereans or the Galatians searched the scriptures in order to compare them against what Paul was saying, it certainly wasn’t the New Testament, as that didn’t even exist. Really, I was hoping you were a little more Bible literate with which to sharpen my skills against... instead I get nonsensical rantings from you which contradict itself.

[alan]

"IF"?

They "did" put all of Paul's teachings and words to the test of scripture.

This is the very same test we should put all teaching up against..
Thius is why i always ask people to take my words and compare them to what the Bible says

[alan]

so this is why whenever we may hear of a story of a messenger sent from God to us we have to do as the Bible teaches us, and compare what this messenger says to what the Bible says.

So it does not matter squat that a person might be 100% convinced that the messenger is truly from the Lord, you still have to put to the test all that the messenger says.

If it is in disagreement?...reject it!

[alan]

once again, the search of truth about God is found first and last with the Bible

[theway]

"IF"?

They "did" put all of Paul's teachings and words to the test of scripture.

This is the very same test we should put all teaching up against..
Thius is why i always ask people to take my words and compare them to what the Bible says
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Compare it with whose understanding of the Bible??? The Bible as understood by the Catholics? Or the Bible as understood by the Jews? Or the Bible as understood by the mainline Protestants? the Bible as understood by the Orthodox Church? The Bible as understood by the various Gnostics? The Bible as understood by the Modern Evangelicals? the Bible as understood by the Calvinists? The Bible as understood by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Or the Bible as understood by the Historians on the History Channel? Or the Bible as understood by the Seventh day Adventist’s? Or the Bible as understood by the Unitarians? Or the Bible as understood by Alan who posts on the Walter Martin’s forum? just which understanding of the Bible are we to compare it against?
That also begs the question??? What if a person doesn’t have access to a Bible? Can they be saved? or what if they have access to the Bible but want to be saved before they read it?.... is that likewise possible?
I don’t expect for you to get it, but those who are Lurking here will instantly see the holes in your “It begins and ends with the Bible” nonsensical theory.
If you only want a partial truth of the Bible, then simply read the Bible. But if you are seeking for the Real Truth, then read the Bible with fasting, prayer, with all available commentaries and from different perspectives, but most important, seek for personal revelation and confirmation of the Holy Ghost when reading the Bible.
After all, this is what happened to Joseph Smith. Joseph studied the Bible, yet because the different Christian sects of his day all interpreted it differently, he didn’t know which version of the truth of the Bible to believe, so he took it to the Lord... James 1:5.

[theway]

so this is why whenever we may hear of a story of a messenger sent from God to us we have to do as the Bible teaches us, and compare what this messenger says to what the Bible says.
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Once again you are in error Alan.
Ironically, you should have taken your own advice and compared your statement against what the scriptures actually said before you posted it.
Paul did not say to compare it with the Bible, he said to compare it with the gospel that he and others had previously preached to them. Because as I already pointed out, the Bible as we know it did not even exist at that time.

[alan]

" Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true."

the key here is found in the words - "and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true"


This shows us how to judge the words of our teachers.
We take what they say and compare it with the Scriptures ...

So it does not matter squat what the "claim" of the teacher is.

Nor does it matter what "hype" comes with the teacher or his teachings.
A teacher can say, "And the heavens opened up and I heard the voice of an angel" and it does not matter.

And it also does not matter that with the teachings came all types of reported wonders, and stories of healing or people hearing all sorts of good-sounding comments from people they trust.

all that is a moot point if the final result of the teaching can not be checked out and in agreement like what the scriptures say as was done with the teachings of Paul.


This is why I always ask people to put to the test of scripture my own teachings of what I claim the Bible says and to find out if things are truly in the Bible as I claim?


I can ask no more of anyone that to test my words the same way the words of Paul were tested..

[alan]

The question was asked -
"That also begs the question??? What if a person doesn’t have access to a Bible? Can they be saved?"


Here is the answer:
I will post a video of Dr Walter Martin tonight that goes over this question and give us a very clear answer..


Until then.....

[alan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8

[theway]

The question was asked -
"That also begs the question??? What if a person doesn’t have access to a Bible? Can they be saved?"


Here is the answer:
I will post a video of Dr Walter Martin tonight that goes over this question and give us a very clear answer..


Until then.....

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LOL.... now wait a minute... I asked you a question related to one's salvation, for which you have claimed that all such doctrine "begins and ends with the Bible...." and yet, you divert from the Bible to someone who has no authority at all to speak for God. I will ignore the video because I have found that WM does not even understand the Bible. However since I view you on the same level as him, suppose you just give me the answer. Can a person be saved who has never had the opportunity to know Jesus or the Bible?

[alan]

you asked about the salvation of people that do not ever have a chance to read the Bible?

The answer appears in the Bible.....

The search for all such answers about the true God, always starts and ends with the Scriptures....case-closed.

[alan]

and to make sure you get a chance to hear what Dr Walter Martin taught on the topic, I will post the video again tonight.

until then....

[alan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=vVXMUDC_pw8

[alan]

notice that at all times, that the answer the Dr Walter Martin gives to this question is always 100% backed with scripture.

All answers to such questions must be so supported.

[theway]

you asked about the salvation of people that do not ever have a chance to read the Bible?

The answer appears in the Bible.....

The search for all such answers about the true God, always starts and ends with the Scriptures....case-closed.
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LOL... So because you do not have an answer, you resort to equivocation in both my question and in your attempt to answer.

I only added Jesus in my question because your video ***le did... and I only said Bible because I thought you only considered the Bible as scripture.

Let’s try it again, and this time without your games or attempts at diverting to someone else.

Can a person be saved without the Bible?

[alan]

Q - "Can a person be saved without the Bible? "

A - Walter Martin talks about such questions in a video I will post later this day...

Stay tuned!

[alan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[alan]

again, all things always have to be checked out and supported by scripture!

This is how a person can know they are saved...It's not by just their personal "feelings" , for lots of people can "feel" they are saved and yet be still in their sins for they have trusted in a false Jesus not found in the bible.

But the truly saved can rest in the confidence that Jesus that they believe is supported by scripture!

[theway]

again, all things always have to be checked out and supported by scripture!

This is how a person can know they are saved...It's not by just their personal "feelings" , for lots of people can "feel" they are saved and yet be still in their sins for they have trusted in a false Jesus not found in the bible.

But the truly saved can rest in the confidence that Jesus that they believe is supported by scripture!
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Again, for the Lurkers out there... notice how Alan can not even support his own argument, but instead, diverts to an answer to a question I never even asked

Alan’s reply: “...all things have to be checked out and supported by scripture!”

We all know why he did this, it’s because any real answer he gives... no matter which side he takes; he’ll destroy his whole theology.
So what does he do, he tells you to take your question to Walter Martin, so that Walter can take the fall for his failed beliefs, and Alan will blame him for it.
But let’s try again so we can see Alan squirm once more...

Can a person be saved without the Bible?

[alan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[theway]

LOL.... Of course the doctrine of Cheap Grace [Faith Alone] is denied by all those that you see as a cult... but then, Cheap Grace is also denied by 88% of those who claim to be Christian as well.
The irony is that those of us who believe in a living faith, not a dead faith like you, see you as the cult.

[alan]

Notice what Walter says at 2:22

This is the answer to any question about a person's path to salvation.




ENJOY THE VIDEO,

I shall be posting more on this later
>>>>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[disciple]

Hello Alan and Way,

I would like to make a comment based on the following two scriptures.
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44
"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
It is God who draws a man and the Holy Spirit who testafies to the truth of the Gospel otherwise no one
would be saved. Does a man have to physically read the Bible to be saved? No but he must have the Word of God,
written or spoken to believe the Gospel as Rom. 10:17 states.



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LOL.... now wait a minute... I asked you a question related to one's salvation, for which you have claimed that all such doctrine "begins and ends with the Bible...." and yet, you divert from the Bible to someone who has no authority at all to speak for God. I will ignore the video because I have found that WM does not even understand the Bible. However since I view you on the same level as him, suppose you just give me the answer. Can a person be saved who has never had the opportunity to know Jesus or the Bible?

[alan]

so when a person asks, "Can you be saved without reading the Bible?"..the answer is that you must hear what is in the Bible.

So in a situation where you are blind, or aged, or sick, or even on the cross about to die, you still have the opportunity to believe in the Jesus of the Bible...be it from listening to someone teach of Jesus, watching a movie, etc. The key thing is that what you hear, see, or whatever and then believe in has to be in agreement with the Bible.


This idea is in agreement with what Dr Walter Martin also teaches , in that if you are truly searching for God you will find him...and the light you have will be brighter as you draw closer and closer to the Jesus of the Bible.

[theway]

so when a person asks, "Can you be saved without reading the Bible?"..the answer is that you must hear what is in the Bible.
So in a situation where you are blind, or aged, or sick, or even on the cross about to die, you still have the opportunity to believe in the Jesus of the Bible...be it from listening to someone teach of Jesus, watching a movie, etc. The key thing is that what you hear, see, or whatever and then believe in has to be in agreement with the Bible.

This idea is in agreement with what Dr Walter Martin also teaches , in that if you are truly searching for God you will find him...and the light you have will be brighter as you draw closer and closer to the Jesus of the Bible.

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And you are still wrong, you just do not get it!
The irony is that you require a lot of works through hearing and reading, and only give lip service to a “faith” and yet denying the power there of.

You talk about a physical hearing and seeing, yet without the spiritual hearing and seeing, the former is useless. That is why when Christ said the “Word of God” is meant for only those with ears to hear and eyes to see, he was saying personal revelation from God has to go accompany any study of the Bible.
Note how whenever you talk about comparing what an individual has read or heard about the gospel, you talk about comparing it with what either you and your personal interpretation, or Walter Martin’s. Nowhere have you even left room to compare it with what God Himself is saying to you. He is telling you the correct interpretation, you are just listening with the wrong ears. The spiritual can only be understood through the spiritual.

[alan]

people can claim all kinds of things..

People can claim that they have a new teaching and a new revelation from God....and thats fine...good for them..

All we need to do is to take their "new teaching" and compare it to what we already have in the Scriptures to see if it is in agreement?

If it is in agreement with the Bible?..then we can take a look at what this new idea is.

But if it is in clear disagreement?...then its sent into the trash, because we dont have even one second of free time for such foolishness.


The key thing to remember is that nothing,,,nothing big,,,nothing little, or nothing in between...nothing you might hear from a booming voice from Heaven, or a soft whisper in your heart, can actually be from God if it is in disagreement with the Bible....




This way of learning what to believe and what to avoid is based on the same way they put the new ideas of Paul to the test by listening to what Paul said and then comparing it to the scriptures!

This also is just how I ask people to put my ideas and new revelations to the test.

Im never going to ask you to test my words any differently than what they tested the words of Paul by....

[alan]

and......all what I say is in total agreement with the verse that says -


" Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world"


This is why when I was asked a question like - "Alan if you were 100% sure that God spoke to you with a new teaching would you believe it?" that my answer was - "Not if that teaching was in disagreement with the Scriptures"

[theway]

and......all what I say is in total agreement with the verse that says -


" Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world"


This is why when I was asked a question like - "Alan if you were 100% sure that God spoke to you with a new teaching would you believe it?" that my answer was - "Not if that teaching was in disagreement with the Scriptures"
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And my response is one that you constantly refuse to answer because it would destroy your point/theology...

"Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?"

[alan]

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And my response is one that you constantly refuse to answer because it would destroy your point/theology...

"Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?"




ACTS 8 verse34

"And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and said, "Whose interpretation?"



Then Philip went on to answer that before you can ever hope to study and learn squat about God you have to first join the correct church and then let that church decide on what you believe for you...

or......


what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.

As Walter Martin says, if we respond to the light we receive we will find that that light grows brighter and brighter.,

[theway]

ACTS 8 verse34

"And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and said, "Whose interpretation?"

Then Philip went on to answer that before you can ever hope to study and learn squat about God you have to first join the correct church and then let that church decide on what you believe for you...
or......
what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.
As Walter Martin says, if we respond to the light we receive we will find that that light grows brighter and brighter.,
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You have refused to answer the question once again Alan...

“Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agree with?”

[alan]

"what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step."

[theway]

"what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.".
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You are still evading both questions...

"Can a person be saved without the scriptures to check against?"

and...

“Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?”

[alan]

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"Can a person be saved without the scriptures to check against?"
”






as I said....


The answer I have for you is...




The key thing to remember is that nothing,,,nothing big,,,nothing little, or nothing in between...nothing you might hear from a booming voice from Heaven, or a soft whisper in your heart, can actually be from God if it is in disagreement with the Bible....

[alan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&t=1s

[alan]

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“Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?”


and as I said in my answer to this question


The following,,,



What happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started.

Yet at the end when the eunuch made it up out of the water he found that he was alone again and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water.

But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.

As Walter Martin says, if we respond to the light we receive we will find that that light grows brighter and brighter

[theway]

The key thing to remember is that nothing,,,nothing big,,,nothing little, or nothing in between...nothing you might hear from a booming voice from Heaven, or a soft whisper in your heart, can actually be from God if it is in disagreement with the Bible....

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Once again you did not answer my question!

“Can a man be saved without the scriptures to check against?”

And...

“Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?”

If you don’t know the answers, or if you are too afraid to answer... I get it... you’re no different than Walter Martin and the rest. However, if you guys are not qualified or unwilling to give an answer, I don’t think you should be here preaching to, or criticizing others.... especially to those that do have the answers.

[alan]

"guys?


I'm now a plural?

[alan]

Here is the answer...

Nothing you can think you have received, be it from a teacher you have had for many years, or from a family member, or from a really cool testimony , or even be it from a booming voice from the sky , can be in disagreement with the scriptures.

Now as Walter Martin says in the video, the Bible does not say at any place that a person is sent to Hell because they never heard of Jesus.
Walter goes on to say in the video that a person who never hears of the news of Jesus still is judged by the light he has received.

Walter goes on to say that the Bible teaches that there are things about the invisible God that we Christians believe in that are yet found evidence of in the things that are around us.

This is why the Bible tells us that no person can claim total ignorance....for we all have received this light that is found in the world that points to our creator.

This is why the Bible says that if you look for the Lord you will find him.

This brings us to the same stories of both Paul and of Philip that I have wrote here about, and how they connect to our conversation.

In the case of Paul, it shows us that Paul's words had to be tested.

The people that put his words to the test are said to us to be the better example of how we are to treat the teachings about God that are new to us.

We are to test them,,,every day....day after day...and the standard we are to use are the Scriptures.
This means when we hear a report of some guy who claims, "I have seen a vision, I have seen God, I have received a new teaching!" we are to just smile,....and then put such claims to the TEST!


That is what we are taught to do....


Now as for the story of Philip, I wrote about it to show that not every question should be expected to be answered just because we asked it.
I talked about the person in this bible story who was seeking truth, and yet was now going away from the Holy City with still unanswered questions about God and the Bible...still with questions even after making this long journey.

Yes, clearly his heart was ready to receive the Good News about the Christian message, but he had many questions about the text he was reading.

In response to this the Lord sent one person over to talk to him.
One person...
Not a church...
Not a whole new bible translation
Not a program...

Just a single guy that he bumped into along the way.

The core of their discussion was the scriptures...

I also point out that when the person had been baptized he had to have as many questions about what to believe as he did before he went down into the water!....yet he was again alone.

No teacher with all the answers.
No church with open arms
No magic new bible flopping down from heaven


So what was different?
Why is this story important?

What was changed?....

The change is to the heart of the person, for he had now taken his first step.


"But Alan, he didn't get all his questions answered?"

....."No he didn't....he likely had even more now!"


"Why didn't God tell him what church to join?..or what translation of the Bible to use?...or what interpretation to believe in?"
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Here is my answer to that -

The other day i was talking to my wife about what color to paint the kitchen?
We had been struggling for months with the different color chips and different samples of what the paint could look like.
But we had decided to make up our minds and order the paint color that morning.

As I listened to my wife I stood at the window and looked out at the backyard where my dog was sleeping.
It looked so peaceful....
Then at the same moment that my wife asked me for my thoughts on the final color to order?..I saw a skunk walk out from behind a fence and walk out into the middle of the backyard.

I .....watched with interest.......

I looked at my dog that was still sleeping.....Oh good!

But the skunk was walking ever so slowly across the yard that I could feel my heart beating as I knew that if my dog woke up and spotted the skunk, that my whole summer would be shot as the smell of a skunk that has sprayed in the backyard of a house can take months to fade......

But my wife thinks I have not heard her ask about the paint color, so she asks again a bit louder...

I think now that she must have thought I did not have an answer...she may have thought I was unable to answer her question about the paint color?...perhaps I was afraid?....unqualified?....


In truth she asks a reasonable question...and thinking back on it I did have an answer..a good answer...a perfect answer...and I was about to share it with her.

But I did not...

It just in the context her question was not really a question i considered worth going into at that moment...

There were other issues the person asking the question might want to worry about first...
(even if they dont know it yet)

[alan]

When the heart is ready.....
(a true story by Alan Molstad)


It was back in the early 1990s and I was living in a small town outside the Seattle area.
One day I was under my car changing oil when I heard the voice of a gentleman asking me some question about the future?
I came out from under my car and there standing before me were 3 people.
A man about my age, his wife, and a little young girl I took to be their daughter.

I noticed that the man held a briefcase...so "Clearly a Jehovah's Witness" I thought to myself.

Because I was covered in dirt and oil, and likely smelled bad from working on the car all morning, I was about to dismiss my visitors with the normal, "Im not interested" conversation ending.

But as I looked at the 3 of them, my heart felt pity for what they were doing and how mixed up they had allowed themselves to become, and so I decided to try something new.
I invited them back next week.

They were very surprised at my invitation to meet the following week, and the date was set.


In that week I got out all my books and tapes on how to deal with a JW and I really practiced and practiced what i would say and I have all the Bible texts I wanted to use listed in the order I felt the most powerful.

The meeting :
They showed up on time,,,,and we sat down in my living room and we had a long conversation where I allowed them to put on their presentation without interrupting them, and then I spoke.

I went over the Bible verses , I said every word I had practiced.

We kinda hit a brick wall with each other, and the meeting ended.

At the door I did two things-
#1 - I handed them a few photo copies that I had made from some of their old Watchtowers, and
#2 - I invited them back the next week to continue our conversation.

a week came and went.

During this 2nd week I really dug into the Bible, and I had a whole new bunch of verses to read to them.
I also made a few phone calls and talked with a few former JWs and got their advice on how to deal with my new JW friends.

The 2nd meeting:
Again they showed up right on time, but this time they had left their daughter with a sitter.
This next meeting they seemed different, and the things that said to me seemed to be just stuff they were quoting and not stuff that they actually knew much about.

As our meeting went along we opened things up and we asked questions for each other, and I asked about this new stuff they were talking about?>>>"Where did you get that stuff?" I asked.

The man answered that right after our first meeting they had returned to the Kingdom Hall and had a meeting with the elder .
And he also told me that during the week he had many of the elders of his church calling him or stopping by to help him get prepared for our meeting.

again the meeting seemed to run smack into another brick wall and we all stood up and walked to the door.
At the door I got an idea...I decided that it was now time for me to travel to his house rather than always haveing the JW come to mine.
So I suggested this idea.

They were again shocked at my suggestion.
I was told that in all their history they had never heard of a Christian wanting to visit the home of a JW.
But because it was their turn , (and I pointed this out to them a few times) they did agree and I got their address for our next meeting.
as they left the house I again handed them a few more photo copies of past watchtowers.

a week came and went...

The 3rd and final meeting:
I showed up early....
I had my own little briefcase , and I had to filled with all kinds of things and about 6 to 8 different bible translations.
I was ready!

It was a smaller home, but well maintained.
We sat in the living room.
It was at this final meeting where both sides got a chance to say whatever they wanted, and our conversation strayed all over the place.

They did ask a few questions about where I got the photo copies?
This was new.

This was about the first time they had showed any interest in that part of our meeting.

I just happened, (mostly by accident), to have in my briefcase the real old Watchtower that I have given them a photocopy of.
I reached down and took the Watchtower out and showed it to them.
They were shocked that I had such an old, real Watchtower at ( It was about 20 years old)....but they did read parts of it with interest.

Now as our meeting ended the man said something abut needing to get ready for dinner and something about that another older daughter that was due.
So I took that as a hint to get going.

But as I went out the door I stopped and once again handed them the last few photo copies I had for them.


About a year goes by.
Then another, or more...


[ The next part of the story takes place in our church in Redmond Wa. ]

My wife and I were just killing time out of the lobby of our church waiting for the first service to end when out of the blue I hear my name?

I turned and saw, (to my shock), my JW friend with his family?

I really did not know what to think...>?
Were they here for something?>..

Where they lost?

I did not have a clue.

Then my JW friend asked me some type of question about how i knew to come there that day to see him baptized?
I had no clue what he was talking about???
But I answered something,,and then I asked how things went?

It was a weird question to ask, but I was clue free as to what to say to the guy.

This was when he told me that he had just been baptized that morning into our church!
He must have thought I had come to see this, (when actually I had no idea), and that I was waiting in the loby to talk with him.

I asked a few more question and I learned what had been the big thing that had changed his heart....it was the photocopies.

Yes, the bunch of photocopies that I handed out after each of our meeting, mostly just as an after thought, had been the key thing that got him and his family out of the JW religion.

He told me that after each of our meetings his older daughter who was very active in the Kingdom hall would come over to their house and right away dig into the photocopies that i had given them.

She at first doubted them...at first she was sure they were all fake, or that they were taken out of context.
But as time went on, she started to see how the photocopies were real, and they proved a true history about the JW org that was hidden to them.

The key thing that really proved the photocopies were real was that one single old Watchtower I had given them.

Once they saw that the photocopies were real, this gave them a new set of eyes to view the whole history of their religion, and suddenly it looked to them a lot like something that one guy just dreamed up on his own.


I never saw my old JW friend after that day...
I had moved within a year of that due to my work, and so that is the end of the story I guess..

But there is one important lesson I took from this whole encounter.

I was so concerned with learning the right bible verses, and practicing what I would say, and having the right answer to every question.
I had felt at the time that the key thing in outreach to the world of the non-Christian CULTS is to be prepared.

To know the Bible
To have every answer to the questions asked by the member of a CULT
To have everything down pat,,,every fact...every verse,,,,every Hebrew word correctly translated..
To practice, practice, practice, until I could lead a person to Christ in my sleep.

But thats not how it went.

Turns out all that stuff was rather a moot point.

Yes, God did use me, but not at all as I planed for.

In the story of the salvation of this family, my only part was to deliver some paperwork.

Paperwork I just dismissed as a afterthought...just something to hand out to them at the end of my epic presentation.







so?
So what is this story about?

Why did I write it and post it here on the Walter Martin Forum?


Its a response to people that always will try to cast doubt on the work of others to lead being to Christ.

There will always be detractors,,,,these are the people that want to get others to doubt their importance in the work of the Great Commission.

I cant tell you the number of times I have seen members of a cult point fingers and say, "However, if you guys are not qualified ..." in the hop of quenching the Spirit of they who labor in this important ministry.

My response is to point out the fact that the way God has used me is not at all as I might have thought was how it was done.
God has his own ideas.

There was a great victory in the life of my old JW friend, and I look forward to entering into the Kingdom one day and seeing him and his family there, and perhaps many more that were also saved through the changed life of my friend.

But truly God gets all the credit for this victory, all I did was show up on time with the paperwork...:)

So have courage my brothers and sisters in this type of outreach to the world of the CULTS, you dont have to be an expert to help change a life.
You dont have to know all the answers.

You dont have to have a perfect testimony

You dont have to have a photographic memory.

You dont have to be good at playing "Bible Ping-Pong"



Because, as in my own case, sometimes all you need to be able to do is hit "PRINT".....


......or "enter".




Sometimes all you have to do is show up, and be willing to have a conversation with a member of a CULT....

Remember its not "we" who do the work of saving people, its the Holy Spirit.


The person trapped inside a CULT like the Mormon Church, while far from the truth, are yet never far from our Lord.
And it is the work of our Lord to both spread the seed of the Gospel, as well as to make the ground ready to receive that seed.

The fact that you might be currently dealing with a Mormon may well mean that the good Lord has correctly prepared the heart of that Mormon to now receive the seed of the Good News that we will share with them.


Fear not, for He is with us to the end of time!

[theway]

How Alan Molstad uses Satan's tactic.....
(a truth revealed by TheWay)



I can understand why you say in wasn't you that converted anyone...
Because let's face it, you don't know the answers to the most basics of how a person is saved. Likewise, whenever I ask you about your interpretation of a Bible verse, you deflect to someone else's interpretation. You also talk about not having to have a perfect testimony... which is true, however, I have yet to detect even the slightest bit of a testimony or faith from you. You can't even bring yourself to ***le what you posted as a testimony, you called it a story.

You my friend, are the typical Critic... you blame your failings on God and refuse to take any blame for your part in it.

Well go ahead, you don't need to feign humbleness, because you deserve ALL the credit as God was nowhere to be found in the story you told.

Let me prove it by quoting your own words...

"Yes, the bunch of photocopies that I handed out after each of our meeting, mostly just as an after thought, had been the key thing that got him and his family out of the JW religion."

You are literally saying it was doubt and disbelief that brought them out of the JWs to God.

Sorry, God does not work that way, God does not deal in doubt, questioning, or in disbelief.... never has God told anyone to doubt; for doubt is the polar opposite of faith. The only thing Christ has ever said about doubt is to "Doubt Not". That's because doubt only breeds more doubt. That's why if you were ever successful at dragging someone out of the Mormon Church, its a known fact that most will never join another Church.

Doubt is the exclusive domain of Satan... Even from the very beginning he asked Eve “Did God actually say...?”

Just whose side are you on anyway?

The only way you can know something is true is for the Spirit to reveal it to you, however the Spirit will not reveal to you that something is false (like what you are claiming happened), because that would take away your God given free agency...

[alan]

I never take it personal...

[theway]

I never take it personal...
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LIke I said... that’s because you blame your failings onto someone else, you don’t feel responsible for anything you do.

[alan]

I also try to be forgiving...