Identifying a Christian

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

In another thread, JDErickson said:


"Fruits really has very little to do with being a Christian sorry.

It's what your true beliefs are that matters. "

Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

I bet most LDS Critics will be tempted to say "yes." The Critics will hold to the idea that this test of fruit only works one way--identifying an evil tree, but not for identifying a good tree.

It seems that some Critics preach the un-biblical idea that Jesus was wrong, and that Figs actually CAN come from Thistles, and Grapes CAN be gathered from Thorns. (See Matt. 7).

So, they throw out the fruit test because they believe that the fruits of the Spirit can come directly from Satan.

How 'bout this scripture:

" 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen (Mark 16:17-20)"

Is this a not way of identifying a Christian? I bet the LDS Critic will say "NO", because these signs can be shown to follow the LDS as well.

My question is, is there anything that Jesus said regarding Identifying a Christian, that doesn't also identify an LDS person?

Let me just say, that as an LDS, I DO trust Jesus' words regarding identifying his sheep, his people, his servants.

[Paul]

In another thread, JDErickson said:


Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

It does when the LDS don't want to objectively deal with their fallacious doctrines, and would rather subs***ute a warm fuzzy to make people think that they're something that they're not. It is the cl***ic example of what Jesus was talking about when he expounded on the doctrine of fruits by starting out with a discussion about false prophets and wolves parading about in sheep's clothing.


Matthew 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

It does when the LDS don't want to objectively deal with their fallacious doctrines, and would rather subs***ute a warm fuzzy to make people think that they're something that they're not. It is the cl***ic example of what Jesus was talking about when he expounded on the doctrine of fruits by starting out with a discussion about false prophets and wolves parading about in sheep's clothing.

But you deny Jesus' very words that figs are not gathered from thistles, and grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes. Why do you deny His words?

[HickPreacher]

Since Eden, there has been a difficulty for people as to know what is good fruit and forbidden fruit. A Tree can be known by the fruit it bears.

If the fruit is misidentified, it would then also follow that the tree would also be misidentified.

Some people and organizations are able to fake it for a long time and bear fruit that appears superficially good. Or sometime the fruit of an organization or society is proposed to be good-- but over time turns out to be bad.

The Good Fruit ****ogy is all about how a person who is born-again as a child of God from the inside, will manifest that internal change by outward actions-- those actions called 'fruit'.

The idea is that when change happens inside a person- it will ulitmately show-up on the outside. Likewise Jesus said that He produced the Fruits (works) of the Father, because the Father was inside of Him-


Jn 14 -- Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[Libby]

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

I am a convert (eight years) and before my experiences with the LDS Church I was fairly agnostic..not at all sure there even was a God. I came back to a strong belief in God and the Savior through experiences with the Book of Mormon and this church, and it definitely changed my life for the better. And that is not just my opinion, but has been observed by my family and friends. God transformed me through this church (which I believe is Christ's Church..and he did the transforming using his church as a tool). So, even though I went through a period of over a year where I had difficulty with some of the church history (and even some of the doctrine, when it was presented by critics), I still could not completely deny what Christ had done, in my life, through this church. It is most definitely "good fruit".

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

I am a convert (eight years) and before my experiences with the LDS Church I was fairly agnostic..not at all sure there even was a God. I came back to a strong belief in God and the Savior through experiences with the Book of Mormon and this church, and it definitely changed my life for the better. And that is not just my opinion, but has been observed by my family and friends. God transformed me through this church (which I believe is Christ's Church..and he did the transforming using his church as a tool). So, even though I went through a period of over a year where I had difficulty with some of the church history (and even some of the doctrine, when it was presented by critics), I still could not completely deny what Christ had done, in my life, through this church. It is most definitely "good fruit".

Thanks, Libby. Your life-changing experience is a perfect example of a FIG that some would say had to have come from Thistle. ;)

[HickPreacher]

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

I am a convert (eight years) and before my experiences with the LDS Church I was fairly agnostic..not at all sure there even was a God. I came back to a strong belief in God and the Savior through experiences with the Book of Mormon and this church, and it definitely changed my life for the better. And that is not just my opinion, but has been observed by my family and friends. God transformed me through this church (which I believe is Christ's Church..and he did the transforming using his church as a tool). So, even though I went through a period of over a year where I had difficulty with some of the church history (and even some of the doctrine, when it was presented by critics), I still could not completely deny what Christ had done, in my life, through this church. It is most definitely "good fruit".

God is overall. I have participated in Penitentiary (Department of Corrections) ministry. Many inmates in a temporal way benefit from their stay in the Pen. It keeps them isolated and alive for a time to mature, where otherwise they would end up dead and or killing someone else. The Pen protects, houses, feds , clothes , and even some cases actually educates and rehabilitates.

Freedom even in Christ requires a kind of autonomy and independence that many people have had difficulty with. Real Christians learn how to be clothed directly by God,-- and fed, housed, educated with the Holy Ghost, not by having physical structured Ins***ution to do that for them. Successful Christians are very much self starters. Many Churches have provisions for people who need both ends of the scale from dependence to autonomy.

When you are a Mormon you are given a lot of structure-- you are given a Church calling, and home teachers to check on you, Bishop interviews at various points of time along with other remediations. I was not given the option for autonomy when I needed it-- and left the LDS due to that.
It was as if that was the natural mechanism for a person who grows to autonomy-- leave the Church.

In some cases people need or want a lot of structure-- and the LDS Church seems to provide for those needs.

For me to stay LDS would be like having a life sentence-- maybe an eternal one in the Pen.

[Paul]

But you deny Jesus' very words…

I'm not denying anything. Rather, it is you that has chosen to strip Jesus' words out of their context to support a pretext. You, and the rest of your Mormon cronies that hang around places like this, are a wolf in sheep's clothing, and your doctrines (i.e., "fruit") prove it. Therefore, since that is the case, then Jesus said to "beware" of you, not link arms with you, or be dazzled by all of your so-called wonderful "fruit" that you think makes you a Christian.

[Paul]

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

[SavedbyTruth]

God is overall. I have participated in Penitentiary (Department of Corrections) ministry. Many inmates in a temporal way benefit from their stay in the Pen. It keeps them isolated and alive for a time to mature, where otherwise they would end up dead and or killing someone else. The Pen protects, houses, feds , clothes , and even some cases actually educates and rehabilitates.

Freedom even in Christ requires a kind of autonomy and independence that many people have had difficulty with. Real Christians learn how to be clothed directly by God,-- and fed, housed, educated with the Holy Ghost, not by having physical structured Ins***ution to do that for them. Successful Christians are very much self starters. Many Churches have provisions for people who need both ends of the scale from dependence to autonomy.

When you are a Mormon you are given a lot of structure-- you are given a Church calling, and home teachers to check on you, Bishop interviews at various points of time along with other remediations. I was not given the option for autonomy when I needed it-- and left the LDS due to that.
It was as if that was the natural mechanism for a person who grows to autonomy-- leave the Church.

In some cases people need or want a lot of structure-- and the LDS Church seems to provide for those needs.

For me to stay LDS would be like having a life sentence-- maybe an eternal one in the Pen.

While the Church was doing you good, was it doing Christ's work? Or did you use the Church only as a tool until you obtained your autonomy at which time you were then able to find Christ somewhere else??? Somehow I don't think satan would be a willing participant in preparing you to be able to find Christ. OR do you believe the LDS ARE Christian, but you made the choice to further your autonomy elsewhere among other Christians? Did the Church EVER do you good?

Thank you,

SbT

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

Would you also consider a repentant person a "double minded" person, Paul?

[Vlad III]

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

Isn't it amazing?!!

When Libby was LDS, she was ridiculed and despised.

When she left the LDS she was embraced by all the Mormon antagonists and was encouraged by them to continue in her new path as a Christian.

When she returned to the LDS, now she is ridiculed and condemned again by the mormon antagonists and told she was never really a part of them in the first place.

It looks like it isn't Libby that is being tossed about to and fro.....

[Vlad III]

Would you also consider a repentant person a "double minded" person, Paul?

Good point and very logical. Thanks!

[SavedbyTruth]

It does when the LDS don't want to objectively deal with their fallacious doctrines, and would rather subs***ute a warm fuzzy to make people think that they're something that they're not. It is the cl***ic example of what Jesus was talking about when he expounded on the doctrine of fruits by starting out with a discussion about false prophets and wolves parading about in sheep's clothing.

It is YOU who are trying to prove the LDS are not what they think they are. That is why we are here to defend ourselves. You make the false accusations. We point out where you misquote us, misinterpret our doctrines, etc. It is YOU who denies the Holy Ghost by relegating Him to a "warm fuzzy". You refuse to recognize it is YOU perpetuating falsehoods. There is nothing cl***ic about you. You are a hypocrite...and a very ill-mannered one at that.

SbT

[SavedbyTruth]

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

LOL. Libby, I only recently found out from a poster that I had obviously NEVER been regenerated because I left the Lutheran church at the age of 22.

Libby, you are in good company now.

Love,

SbT

[Paul]

It is YOU who are trying to prove the LDS are not what they think they are. That is why we are here to defend ourselves. You make the false accusations. We point out where you misquote us, misinterpret our doctrines, etc. It is YOU who denies the Holy Ghost by relegating Him to a "warm fuzzy". You refuse to recognize it is YOU perpetuating falsehoods. There is nothing cl***ic about you. You are a hypocrite...and a very ill-mannered one at that.

SbT

Excuse me, but it is not at all difficult to prove that Mormons are not what they claim to be, given the mountains of evidence that they have provided all these years. And it is because Christians can point out the evidence that Mormons, such as yourself, go into PR damage control mode, even to the extent of denying your own material and leaders. So, don't be sitting there lying to everyone about Christians not being able to disprove Mormon claims. The proof is there for anyone with eyes open enough to see it. To the rest, all they can do is lie, obfuscate, and engage in ad hominem attacks to try and avoid looking at the proof.

[Paul]

Isn't it amazing?!!

When Libby was LDS, she was ridiculed and despised.

When she left the LDS she was embraced by all the Mormon antagonists and was encouraged by them to continue in her new path as a Christian.

When she returned to the LDS, now she is ridiculed and condemned again by the mormon antagonists and told she was never really a part of them in the first place.

It looks like it isn't Libby that is being tossed about to and fro.....

Quite to the contrary. Libby can't make up her mind what she wants to do, and you're fueling the confusion by (1) ***erting something about Mormonism that isn't true, and (2) denying Scripture in the process.

[Paul]

Good point and very logical. Thanks!

No, it's a stupid and irrational point, given his twisting of Scripture.

[HickPreacher]

While the Church was doing you good, was it doing Christ's work? Or did you use the Church only as a tool until you obtained your autonomy at which time you were then able to find Christ somewhere else??? Somehow I don't think satan would be a willing participant in preparing you to be able to find Christ. OR do you believe the LDS ARE Christian, but you made the choice to further your autonomy elsewhere among other Christians? Did the Church EVER do you good?

Thank you,

SbT


God is overall SbT-- You ask a HUGE question here-

I was a Christian Born-Again at age 18 never knowing nothing about the LDS but after a year joined the Mormons in 1973.

And I was an active Member until 1991. I remained active until I left.
I discussed my concerns with many LDS friends, my Bishop, and Stake Pres. over about a five year period before leaving.

They all invited me to stay LDS because it was nothing I was doing that contradicted LDS Church Standards-- to them it appeared to only be doctrinal ideas. Eventually it became frustrating to me because they could not seem to relate to my Spiritural Journey - or see it as important.

My initial official efforts of leaving the LDS Church were stalled by the local leadership who knew me. Part of this was due to my former wife's request-- because she also felt that I was being nutty over religious ideas that were in no way practical. She felt that I was destroying my life socially by being a religious nut--She got a lot out of the LDS Social life in the Ward and did not want to leave that for anything. Eventually she jumped ship and left for another man with like views, so I did not have to worry about that negative social aspect of leaving the LDS anymore. So I moved to an area where the Stake and Ward did not know me. That way the paper work went through.

I had a lot of benefits from being LDS socially and temporally for many years-- but to me eventually I was ideologically in deep conflict with LDS doctrines.

I also came into conflict with some of the LDS beliefs of how God is thought to give blessings based on D&C 130

About one year before leaving my LDS experience was horrible-- but other than that for 15 years the Church was a big social help to me as a person.
But later when I understood 'systematic theology' what I saw as errors in Mormon theology horrified me. I think that it takes a lot of insight to see these elements of Mormonism as non-Christian. Most who are LDS IMO do not have a clue as to why Evangelicals call Mormonism non-Christian.-- Many who call Mormons non-Christian in society sometimes also cannot explain why.

IMO certain LDS doctrines portray Christ as God in such a way that He would not have he power to atone us. Again it takes a lot of insight and reasoning to come to that conclusion, which is not within the interest nor scope of ability for some people.

Being out of the loop as a Mormon has been beneficial for my relationship with God. God immediately began to bless me. And continues to do so all the time. It is a much different experience with God as a non-Mormon Evangelical Christian. The way that I respond and work out my salvation is on a much different level-- direct and personal as an Evangelical Christian.

[Libby]

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

This is untrue, Paul. I have not been "double-minded" about my belief in God and Jesus Christ (which is really what those verses are talking about). My belief and my faith have (through His grace) remained steady and constant, in the past eight years, regardless of the "church building" in which I worship. The change has been more about seeking His Will in my life. Not about belief or unbelief.

[Libby]

Thanks, Libby. Your life-changing experience is a perfect example of a FIG that some would say had to have come from Thistle. ;)

I think so, too...I really do. One cannot ***ociate with Latter-day Saints and the LDS Church, up close and personal, and deny the fruit of that church. It's phenomenal (if one is looking at it with truly open eyes)..

[Libby]

LOL. Libby, I only recently found out from a poster that I had obviously NEVER been regenerated because I left the Lutheran church at the age of 22.

Libby, you are in good company now.

Love,

SbT

Absolutely! ;)

[Paul]

This is untrue, Paul. I have not been "double-minded" about my belief in God and Jesus Christ (which is really what those verses are talking about).

Yes you are double-minded, because God cannot be both an infinite spirit, as the Bible points out, and an exalted human being, with physical features that came to be what he is. Moreover, Jesus cannot be a part of the godhead and have a totally different essence than God.


My belief and my faith have (through His grace) remained steady and constant, in the past eight years, regardless of the "church building" in which I worship. The change has been more about seeking His Will in my life. Not about belief or unbelief.

Since when it is God's will that one of His own join a religious organization where he/she can engage in blasphemy as a part of his/her recognition of Him? Can you show me that somewhere in Scripture Libby?

[Paul]

I think so, too...I really do. One cannot ***ociate with Latter-day Saints and the LDS Church, up close and personal, and deny the fruit of that church. It's phenomenal (if one is looking at it with truly open eyes)..

Excuse me, but do you think a wolf in sheep's clothing is truly a sheep, Libby? If not, then whatever "fruit" the wolf might produce is really indicative of what?:cool:

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Quite to the contrary. Libby can't make up her mind what she wants to do, and you're fueling the confusion by (1) ***erting something about Mormonism that isn't true, and (2) denying Scripture in the process.

This is why I think it is presumptive for mainstream Christians to hold to the idea of OSAS.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

No, it's a stupid and irrational point, given his twisting of Scripture.

But I see you have no answer.

[Vlad III]

This is why I think it is presumptive for mainstream Christians to hold to the idea of OSAS.

Yes, but they have their 'out'...it's the caveat that, "Well, if they decide to leave the mainstream christian church they weren't really saved in the first place."

[anita]

This is a really good thread....... first of all most of believe that libby is saved. And if she is saved god will woo her until she is where she should be. to be saved all one must do is believe in their heart that jesus is God and that he came to redeem us from our sins. That his bought us with the price of his own blood so that we wouldn't have to pay for our own sins. libby confessed with her mouth and believed with her heart. She is saved as far as I"m concerned......... the fruits of the spirit are love joy peace patience kindness, goodness faithfulness gentleness and self control. against such thinkgs there isno law. gal 5:22-23

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Yes, but they have their 'out'...it's the caveat that, "Well, if they decide to leave the mainstream christian church they weren't really saved in the first place."

And this actually means that no one really knows if they were really saved in the first place. Because any of them could commit the one and only 'unpardonable sin' of having a change of heart and joining the LDS Church. No one knows for sure what the future holds.

:D

[nrajeff]

And this actually means that no one really knows if they were really saved in the first place. Because any of them could commit the one and only 'unpardonable sin' of having a change of heart and joining the LDS Church. No one knows for sure what the future holds.
:D

---And that is the extremely salient--and dangerous--truth that Calvinists do not want to face, IMO. Because it militates against OSAS or OBIS or both. How can anyone claim to know they are irrevocably saved, if it's possible that they might "fall away" next year?

[Libby]

Yes you are double-minded, because God cannot be both an infinite spirit, as the Bible points out, and an exalted human being, with physical features that came to be what he is.

Why not? I believe God is infinite spirit with an exalted/celestial body. There is nothing in the Bible that refutes that possibility.


Moreover, Jesus cannot be a part of the godhead and have a totally different essence than God.

I agree. I'm not sure what you're saying. I don't believe Jesus has a different essence than Heavenly Father....or us, for that matter. We are all, in essence, spiritual beings.


Since when it is God's will that one of His own join a religious organization where he/she can engage in blasphemy as a part of his/her recognition of Him? Can you show me that somewhere in Scripture Libby?

Of course not. And, I certainly wouldn't align myself with any organization that I believed was engaging in blasphemy.

[Libby]

Fig, I meant to tell you that was a really good observation about repentance. That is the core "fruit" of rebirth. Not something that comes from satan, that's for sure.

[Libby]

---And that is the extremely salient--and dangerous--truth that Calvinists do not want to face, IMO. Because it militates against OSAS or OBIS or both. How can anyone claim to know they are irrevocably saved, if it's possible that they might "fall away" next year?

Yes...this indicates to me that "enduring to the end" is really much more meaningful.

[Libby]

This is a really good thread....... first of all most of believe that libby is saved. And if she is saved god will woo her until she is where she should be. to be saved all one must do is believe in their heart that jesus is God and that he came to redeem us from our sins. That his bought us with the price of his own blood so that we wouldn't have to pay for our own sins. libby confessed with her mouth and believed with her heart. She is saved as far as I"m concerned......... the fruits of the spirit are love joy peace patience kindness, goodness faithfulness gentleness and self control. against such thinkgs there isno law. gal 5:22-23


Thank you, dear friend.

[SavedbyTruth]

Excuse me, but it is not at all difficult to prove that Mormons are not what they claim to be, given the mountains of evidence that they have provided all these years. And it is because Christians can point out the evidence that Mormons, such as yourself, go into PR damage control mode, even to the extent of denying your own material and leaders. So, don't be sitting there lying to everyone about Christians not being able to disprove Mormon claims. The proof is there for anyone with eyes open enough to see it. To the rest, all they can do is lie, obfuscate, and engage in ad hominem attacks to try and avoid looking at the proof.

Your "evidence" is ***embled by man. Our evidence comes from God. God trumps man every time. Don't you agree?

[SavedbyTruth]

God is overall SbT-- You ask a HUGE question here-

I was a Christian Born-Again at age 18 never knowing nothing about the LDS but after a year joined the Mormons in 1973.

And I was an active Member until 1991. I remained active until I left.
I discussed my concerns with many LDS friends, my Bishop, and Stake Pres. over about a five year period before leaving.

They all invited me to stay LDS because it was nothing I was doing that contradicted LDS Church Standards-- to them it appeared to only be doctrinal ideas. Eventually it became frustrating to me because they could not seem to relate to my Spiritural Journey - or see it as important.

My initial official efforts of leaving the LDS Church were stalled by the local leadership who knew me. Part of this was due to my former wife's request-- because she also felt that I was being nutty over religious ideas that were in no way practical. She felt that I was destroying my life socially by being a religious nut--She got a lot out of the LDS Social life in the Ward and did not want to leave that for anything. Eventually she jumped ship and left for another man with like views, so I did not have to worry about that negative social aspect of leaving the LDS anymore. So I moved to an area where the Stake and Ward did not know me. That way the paper work went through.

I had a lot of benefits from being LDS socially and temporally for many years-- but to me eventually I was ideologically in deep conflict with LDS doctrines.

I also came into conflict with some of the LDS beliefs of how God is thought to give blessings based on D&C 130

About one year before leaving my LDS experience was horrible-- but other than that for 15 years the Church was a big social help to me as a person.
But later when I understood 'systematic theology' what I saw as errors in Mormon theology horrified me. I think that it takes a lot of insight to see these elements of Mormonism as non-Christian. Most who are LDS IMO do not have a clue as to why Evangelicals call Mormonism non-Christian.-- Many who call Mormons non-Christian in society sometimes also cannot explain why.

IMO certain LDS doctrines portray Christ as God in such a way that He would not have he power to atone us. Again it takes a lot of insight and reasoning to come to that conclusion, which is not within the interest nor scope of ability for some people.

Being out of the loop as a Mormon has been beneficial for my relationship with God. God immediately began to bless me. And continues to do so all the time. It is a much different experience with God as a non-Mormon Evangelical Christian. The way that I respond and work out my salvation is on a much different level-- direct and personal as an Evangelical Christian.

I appreciate very much that you have shared your story. To give this type of length to your spiritual travels shows how important it really is to you personally. It seems you have also spoken from your heart, and I thank you.

I noticed you mentioned God is overall. I believe the same thing. I have faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose resurrection we celebrate tomorrow. You became a Christian the moment you believed at the age of 18. I became Christian as a young girl in the Lutheran church. You have changed affiliation from main stream, to LDS, and back again to main stream. I changed from main stream to LDS. Neither of us has ever lost our faith in Jesus. We worship Him within the realm of the church we each have chosen. We serve Him by living Christian lives and following His example. We are both Christian.

SavedbyTruth

[Jill]

You can believe whatever you wish but that doesn't make it true. Historical Christianity never taught that God was an "exalted man"; it never taught that Jesus was NOT conceived by the Holy Spirit. These are inventions of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, and they are blasphemous (and certainly heretical). If you have the wrong Jesus, you are not a Christian.

Mormonism is not Christian because its doctrine is not biblical and historical Christian doctrine. Words mean things. Without definitions, we have chaos. A heart is a heart, not a lung. If you were to tell me a heart helps us breathe, I would think you were either confused or uneducated in terms of anatomy.

In the same way, Christianity is not a term that can be redefined and rearranged by whoever happens to come along and think they know better. Sorry, but history cannot be erased so easily. The definition of Christianity, its doctrines and defense of the faith, are easily found in more than 2000 years worth of Church history. God the Father was never an exalted man and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Christianity thrived for 2000 years--it never needed to be "restored" by anyone.

[Vlad III]

You can believe whatever you wish but that doesn't make it true. Historical Christianity never taught that God was an "exalted man"; it never taught that Jesus was NOT conceived by the Holy Spirit. These are inventions of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, and they are blasphemous (and certainly heretical). If you have the wrong Jesus, you are not a Christian.

Mormonism is not Christian because its doctrine is not biblical and historical Christian doctrine. Words mean things. Without definitions, we have chaos. A heart is a heart, not a lung. If you were to tell me a heart helps us breathe, I would think you were either confused or uneducated in terms of anatomy.

In the same way, Christianity is not a term that can be redefined and rearranged by whoever happens to come along and think they know better. Sorry, but history cannot be erased so easily. The definition of Christianity, its doctrines and defense of the faith, are easily found in more than 2000 years worth of Church history. God the Father was never an exalted man and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Christianity thrived for 2000 years--it never needed to be "restored" by anyone.

So what's the 2000 year old definition of Christianity?

[Libby]

You can believe whatever you wish but that doesn't make it true. Historical Christianity never taught that God was an "exalted man"; it never taught that Jesus was NOT conceived by the Holy Spirit. These are inventions of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, and they are blasphemous (and certainly heretical). If you have the wrong Jesus, you are not a Christian.

Mormonism is not Christian because its doctrine is not biblical and historical Christian doctrine. Words mean things. Without definitions, we have chaos. A heart is a heart, not a lung. If you were to tell me a heart helps us breathe, I would think you were either confused or uneducated in terms of anatomy.

In the same way, Christianity is not a term that can be redefined and rearranged by whoever happens to come along and think they know better. Sorry, but history cannot be erased so easily. The definition of Christianity, its doctrines and defense of the faith, are easily found in more than 2000 years worth of Church history. God the Father was never an exalted man and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Christianity thrived for 2000 years--it never needed to be "restored" by anyone.

I can certainly respect that other Christians have differing views about Jesus Christ and some different interpretations of the Bible, but I don't see those differing views as making anyone less Christian. Christians follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible (as best they know how) and that is what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are striving to do (albeit, imperfectly, but that is the intent..to be disciples of Christ)..

[Jill]

I can certainly respect that other Christians have differing views about Jesus Christ and some different interpretations of the Bible, but I don't see those differing views as making anyone less Christian. Christians follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible (as best they know how) and that is what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are striving to do (albeit, imperfectly, but that is the intent..to be disciples of Christ)..

They are disciples of a christ who was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. This is not the Jesus of the Bible.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:18

It is not a matter of "respecting" differing views. It is a matter of doctrine. The Apostle Paul taught that Christians must "guard" Christian doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16; ***us 1:9; 2:1) to keep it from being redefined.

People don't get to interpret the Bible any way they please. There are ancient rules for interpretation and ancient definitions of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, etc.

The Mormons worship a Jesus who was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. Christians worship the true Jesus who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

[Jill]

So what's the 2000 year old definition of Christianity?

I'll start with this, Vlad.

1. God is the one and only God. There is no other God and there will never be any other "gods". He is ominiscient, omnipotent, and ominipresent. He is spirit only--he was never an exalted man.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isaiah 43:10

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

[dfoJC]

Could someone please answer me a question? Perhaps I am a bit confused!

On the one hand Joseph Smith has an encounter with "God." In that encounter he is told that all churches are "apostate." And that he should join none of them.

But now we have well meaning mormons wanting to be called "christians." Am I missing something here?

Why, as a mormon, do you now want to be part of what is considered "apostate" by mormonism? Is it because for whatever reason you separate "christian" from "church?"

I don't mean to derail this thread, but this is something that I find curious.....

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Vlad III]

They are disciples of a christ who was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. This is not the Jesus of the Bible.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:18

It is not a matter of "respecting" differing views. It is a matter of doctrine. The Apostle Paul taught that Christians must "guard" Christian doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16; ***us 1:9; 2:1) to keep it from being redefined.

People don't get to interpret the Bible any way they please. There are ancient rules for interpretation and ancient definitions of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, etc.

The Mormons worship a Jesus who was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. Christians worship the true Jesus who was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

So in order to be a Christian, you must believe that the Holy Spirit is actually the Father of Jesus, NOT God the Father. :confused:

LDS believe the scriptures that teach that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. But we also understand that the Father is the Father. We don't know how, which makes it part of the miracle. But it doesn't make us non-Christian becasue we believe Jesus when He speaks of the father being His father.

[Vlad III]

Could someone please answer me a question? Perhaps I am a bit confused!

On the one hand Joseph Smith has an encounter with "God." In that encounter he is told that all churches are "apostate." And that he should join none of them.

But now we have well meaning mormons wanting to be called "christians." Am I missing something here?

Why, as a mormon, do you now want to be part of what is considered "apostate" by mormonism? Is it because for whatever reason you separate "christian" from "church?"

I don't mean to derail this thread, but this is something that I find curious.....

with kind regards,
dfoJC

It's simple. Mormons are Christians according to any Biblical standard/ definition. It isn't that the LDS church wants to be considered 'a part' of mainstream Christianity. We only want mainstream Christianity to stop trying to consider us non-Christians based on their many additions to the litmus test of who can or cannot be called a Christian.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I'll start with this, Vlad.

1. God is the one and only God. There is no other God and there will never be any other "gods". He is ominiscient, omnipotent, and ominipresent. He is spirit only--he was never an exalted man.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isaiah 43:10

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

"Before me, there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

The Lord is speaking to Israel. Israel has only One God. Israel had no God before God, and Israel will have no God after God. All this is true, Jill.

Man is also spirit. That is why we can worship God in spirit and in truth.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

They are disciples of a christ who was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. This is not the Jesus of the Bible.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matt 1:18

It's not the Holy Ghost's Child. It's the Son of God the Father?

16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Libby]

It is not a matter of "respecting" differing views. It is a matter of doctrine. The Apostle Paul taught that Christians must "guard" Christian doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16; ***us 1:9; 2:1) to keep it from being redefined.

But, who gets to define "doctrine"? LDS believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and we define him and his doctrine through that Holy Book, and through living Prophets. Joseph Smith never said the church he established was not Christian...just the opposite. It is restored Christianity. Restored...which, from an LDS perspective means that Christian doctrine has been protected...by God, Himself.

I mean, other Christians can disagree that Christianity needed a restoration, but they cannot deny that LDS are Christians.

"we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Nephi 25:23, 26).

[SavedbyTruth]

You can believe whatever you wish but that doesn't make it true. Historical Christianity never taught that God was an "exalted man"; it never taught that Jesus was NOT conceived by the Holy Spirit. These are inventions of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, and they are blasphemous (and certainly heretical). If you have the wrong Jesus, you are not a Christian.

Mormonism is not Christian because its doctrine is not biblical and historical Christian doctrine. Words mean things. Without definitions, we have chaos. A heart is a heart, not a lung. If you were to tell me a heart helps us breathe, I would think you were either confused or uneducated in terms of anatomy.

In the same way, Christianity is not a term that can be redefined and rearranged by whoever happens to come along and think they know better. Sorry, but history cannot be erased so easily. The definition of Christianity, its doctrines and defense of the faith, are easily found in more than 2000 years worth of Church history. God the Father was never an exalted man and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Christianity thrived for 2000 years--it never needed to be "restored" by anyone.

I'm sorry Jill, but you are incorrect. There is plenty of evidence in the languages which the Bible was written, that the LDS are not the first to teach the things we believe about the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It is man who wanted to shape what they wanted people to know about or believe about the Godhead which has lead Christianity astray. For a young, uneducated boy to know these things is very strong evidence which YOU can touch and read and ponder about. Even so, it is the Holy Ghost who will testify these truths to you. You are stuck in the spiritually blind prison created by man. Man kept enough of the truth to convince others that what they teach you is correct. But you have been fooled by the very tricks you claim we have been fooled by. Only you do not allow yourself to see it because it would mean you would have to admit that you have been lead astray while you thought you were doing the right thing. This is unacceptable to you.

Sadly, you have even bought into the belief that what Jesus Himself taught is now superceded by man's interpretation of the teachings of Jesus. So you believe what man's "proof" of being Christian is. It is you who have rearranged what a Christian is. You have even convinced yourself you have the right to judge us because you think we need to be saved from the very Jesus Christ whom you worship.

Someday you will weep with regret that you tried to destroy the faith of others. But in that day, we will weep with you that you finally see the Truth free of mans precepts.

SavedbyTruth

[HickPreacher]

Libby says--

But, who gets to define "doctrine"? LDS believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and we define him and his doctrine through that Holy Book, and through living Prophets. Joseph Smith never said the church he established was not Christian...just the opposite. It is restored Christianity. Restored...which, from an LDS perspective means that Christian doctrine has been protected...by God, Himself.


Mormons often define a Christian as: a follower of Christ. Mormons define a Christian religion as: a religion that follows Christ and is Christ centred. Definition Function: noun Etymology: Latin christi****, adjective & noun, from Greek christianos, from Christos Date: 1526 1 a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1): disciple 2



Humm let me say this on this topic of Mormons --

That which was first called “Christianity’ Acts 26:28 was originally called “The Way”. Yet Mormonism has a different WAY.


Ac 24:14

Quote:
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

This is because it consisted of a unique WAY to get to heaven that was different from other Religions.

The Foundational setting for the WAY was that there is ONE God-- and that all the commands of God hinged on that foundational idea.

This first commandment is spelled out in the scriptures the first example is the one that Mormons use-- it is the one cited on the LDS.org site.


Quote:
Matthew 22: 33 And when the mul***ude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


This is also taught in Mark in its fullness-- Note the Foundational idea of ONE GOD:
Quote:

12: 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.


Mormons include the Love God and Love Neighbor part—but have neglected the One God part. This means that they are not following the most fundamental and foundational teaching of Christ. As it is written
In Matt 22 of this most fundamental commandment-
Quote:

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

OK back to “THE WAY”

Christianity had a unique “WAY” to Heaven. It was all about relying on What Jesus did on the cross to rid man of SIN and that alone. And Not on what men do for themselves to cross the veil to gain entry to heaven. This all had to do with the idea that there was only ONE BARRIER between God and Man. That was SIN.

The Cross then was the Key to “the WAY”.



1 Cor 1:

Quote:
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Hebrews 10: 18 The Barrier of SIN is removed
Quote:

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin
Then Hebrews 10: 19 with the removal of Sin Humanity has access to heaven-
Quote:

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

OK then Hebews 10:20 This manner of entering heaven is the Way-
Quote:

By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Notice how Jesus’ blood sacrifice is connected with the “WAY” back in to God’s presence or Heaven. (Heaven was modeled in the Hebrew Temple by the Holy Place or ‘holiest’--- to enter the holiest is a symbol of entering the heavenly realms of God’s presence.) This is Why Christianity was first called “THE WAY”



Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me,

This “WAY” was given in a message called the Good News or the Gospel—

1 Cor 15:
Quote:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel and WAY of Mormonism is a different Way than that which came to be termed “Christianity”.

Quote:

Our religion is nothing more nor less than the true order of heaven—the system of laws by which the gods and the angels are governed. The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are ***ured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son.

LDS Sunday School Manual; The Gospel Defined: Lesson 235554, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young

Quote:

…one of the untrue doctrines found in modern Christendom is the concept that man can gain salvation by grace alone …
(Mormon Doctrine, 671)


OK --------in my view this outlines why Mormons do not appear to be what came to be called "Christians". They have a different WAY then "THE WAY" which came to be called "Christianity"--

------------------------------------------
Next notice the iden***y of the One God that Paul worships--

Ac 24:14

Quote:
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul worships the God of his Fathers-- the God of the Old Testament who is Jehovah. The God of the Way is Jehovah NOT some higher God above Jehovah named 'Elohim'.

[SavedbyTruth]

Libby says--



Mormons often define a Christian as: a follower of Christ. Mormons define a Christian religion as: a religion that follows Christ and is Christ centred. Definition Function: noun Etymology: Latin christi****, adjective & noun, from Greek christianos, from Christos Date: 1526 1 a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1): disciple 2



Humm let me say this on this topic of Mormons --

That which was first called “Christianity’ Acts 26:28 was originally called “The Way”. Yet Mormonism has a different WAY.


Ac 24:14


This is because it consisted of a unique WAY to get to heaven that was different from other Religions.

The Foundational setting for the WAY was that there is ONE God-- and that all the commands of God hinged on that foundational idea.

This first commandment is spelled out in the scriptures the first example is the one that Mormons use-- it is the one cited on the LDS.org site.




This is also taught in Mark in its fullness-- Note the Foundational idea of ONE GOD:
Quote:



Mormons include the Love God and Love Neighbor part—but have neglected the One God part. This means that they are not following the most fundamental and foundational teaching of Christ. As it is written
In Matt 22 of this most fundamental commandment-
Quote:


OK back to “THE WAY”

Christianity had a unique “WAY” to Heaven. It was all about relying on What Jesus did on the cross to rid man of SIN and that alone. And Not on what men do for themselves to cross the veil to gain entry to heaven. This all had to do with the idea that there was only ONE BARRIER between God and Man. That was SIN.

The Cross then was the Key to “the WAY”.



1 Cor 1:
.

Hebrews 10: 18 The Barrier of SIN is removed
Quote:

Then Hebrews 10: 19 with the removal of Sin Humanity has access to heaven-
Quote:


OK then Hebews 10:20 This manner of entering heaven is the Way-
Quote:


Notice how Jesus’ blood sacrifice is connected with the “WAY” back in to God’s presence or Heaven. (Heaven was modeled in the Hebrew Temple by the Holy Place or ‘holiest’--- to enter the holiest is a symbol of entering the heavenly realms of God’s presence.) This is Why Christianity was first called “THE WAY”




This “WAY” was given in a message called the Good News or the Gospel—

1 Cor 15:
Quote:


The Gospel and WAY of Mormonism is a different Way than that which came to be termed “Christianity”.

Quote:


LDS Sunday School Manual; The Gospel Defined: Lesson 235554, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young

Quote:

(Mormon Doctrine, 671)


OK --------in my view this outlines why Mormons do not appear to be what came to be called "Christians". They have a different WAY then "THE WAY" which came to be called "Christianity"--

------------------------------------------
Next notice the iden***y of the One God that Paul worships--

Ac 24:14


Paul worships the God of his Fathers-- the God of the Old Testament who is Jehovah. The God of the Way is Jehovah NOT some higher God above Jehovah named 'Elohim'.

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

Jesus is the way to Heaven.

There are many divisions and levels in Heaven and we can help determine where we end up in Heaven.

SbT

[Libby]

Steve, I don't think you will get any argument from LDS that Jesus Christ is The Way.

The other, the One God issue, is a bit more complicated. I think Fig addressed that a bit. That part gets confusing for me and much of it is taken on faith. I just know that I do worship only one God, and all the other is a mystery to me...just as most Christians have a difficult time explaining how three persons can make just one God.

Thank you for your post. It was very interesting to read.

[HickPreacher]

SbT and Libby thanks for reading the post on "The Way".

Maybe I will start a Thread about 'the Way'

[SavedbyTruth]

Excuse me, but it is not at all difficult to prove that Mormons are not what they claim to be, given the mountains of evidence that they have provided all these years. And it is because Christians can point out the evidence that Mormons, such as yourself, go into PR damage control mode, even to the extent of denying your own material and leaders. So, don't be sitting there lying to everyone about Christians not being able to disprove Mormon claims. The proof is there for anyone with eyes open enough to see it. To the rest, all they can do is lie, obfuscate, and engage in ad hominem attacks to try and avoid looking at the proof.

I must have missed the part where you were able to prove anything.

SbT

[alanmolstad]

In another thread, JDErickson said:


Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

I bet most LDS Critics will be tempted to say "yes." The Critics will hold to the idea that this test of fruit only works one way--identifying an evil tree, but not for identifying a good tree.

It seems that some Critics preach the un-biblical idea that Jesus was wrong, and that Figs actually CAN come from Thistles, and Grapes CAN be gathered from Thorns. (See Matt. 7).

So, they throw out the fruit test because they believe that the fruits of the Spirit can come directly from Satan.

How 'bout this scripture:

" 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen (Mark 16:17-20)"

Is this a not way of identifying a Christian? I bet the LDS Critic will say "NO", because these signs can be shown to follow the LDS as well.

My question is, is there anything that Jesus said regarding Identifying a Christian, that doesn't also identify an LDS person?

Let me just say, that as an LDS, I DO trust Jesus' words regarding identifying his sheep, his people, his servants.

The error that Fig makes is found in his use of a highly questionable verse in the bible as the main support for his comment.
Its just never a good idea to base anything at all on a Bible verse that is so well known for being likely not in the original text at all.

But to move on to the main thrust of Fig's question about spotting the Christian by their deeds....
My answer is that we have to be always on-guard that we dont just ***ume a person is a Christian just because our quick glance of one of their actions fits into a preconceived idea of what a Christian should be doing.

A far, far better means to tell a Christian from a nonbeliever is to get into their theology.
Ask a few questions to them about the nature of God and His son.....from there it should lead you to the answer as to if they are a christian or not.

If we are not able to talk to the person but can only look at some of their actions we are always going to have some question about their salvation.

It is true that the Bible does say that good Christians are known by "our Love" for other Christians .
To me this shows us that while we all hope for unity on the main issues we yet should also look for charity on the side issues....the allowance for disagreement on side issues without condemnation that should be seen among Christians.

[dberrie2000]

The error that Fig makes is found in his use of a highly questionable verse in the bible as the main support for his comment.
Its just never a good idea to base anything at all on a Bible verse that is so well known for being likely not in the original text at all.

Would this one be included in that scenario?


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

we are "saved" by Grace though faith, and not by works....
So salvation is via the one path give us in the bible...ie Grace though faith...

But also there is a justified by works and a justified by faith>
So when we are just talking about the topic of being justified before God or men, we should keep this difference in mind.

That before men we are "justified" by works....
|This is just the normal means we look at people and decide if they are a member of the body of Christ or not.
we cant see in another person's heart, so we have no way to know for sure is a person is saved or not.
This is because when we consider how we are saved, (Grace though faith) we have to admit that all that happened inside the person's heart...and thus its unseen on the outside.


What is seen on the outside?
Works are seen.
This is why we in the Christian church talk about a person being " justified by works" ie being understood as having a new heart of a believer.
For I cant see your heart but I can see your words and deeds, and I can use them to tell what is going on unseen inside your heart between You and the Lord.

So that is the reason and use we in the Christian church have for the concept of justified by works.
We are not saying you are "saved" by works, for we know the Bible warns us over and over that we are not saved by works.
But we can use my works to get an idea what my relationship is to the Lord in my heart.


But what is then the justified by faith?
This is what goes on inside the person heart.
When we say we are justified by faith, this is talking about the unseen things that go on in your hidden heart between you and God.
this is talking about the nature of your soul.....are you saved?...are you lost?


In the Bible we see both the justified by works and the justified by faith at work hand-in-hand in the life of people.

like Abraham for example.
People could not see his inner heart, so a person can only tell if Abraham is a believer by his works.
In the act of raising the knife over his son, we see that Abraham is justified by works in the sight of men......

But God knew the heart of Abraham before he ever walked up the hill with his son....thats Justified by FAITH!.




So before men I am justified by works,
And before God I am justified by faith.


But at all times we are "saved" only by GRACE though FAITH!.........AMEN!

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

[dberrie2000]

we are "saved" by Grace though faith, and not by works....
So salvation is via the one path give us in the bible...ie Grace though faith...

Is that reference to faith--a dead faith?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


But also there is a justified by works and a justified by faith>
So when we are just talking about the topic of being justified before God or men, we should keep this difference in mind.

I don't believe this is a reference to being justified before men:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



What is seen on the outside? Works are seen.
This is why we in the Christian church talk about a person being " justified by works" ie being understood as having a new heart of a believer.
For I cant see your heart but I can see your words and deeds,

And the Lord judges mankind in accordance with those works:

Matthew 16:27--King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[dberrie2000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

Alan--the only time "faith alone" is mentioned within the Biblical text is this instance:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

he shall reward every man according to his works.[/B]

in an answer one time Jesus told the story of how at the judgement many men will have these huge lists of all the great "works' that they did to prove their salvation.
But Jesus totally rejected works as a means to that end...LOL

But dont "works' count at all?
yes they do count!
And...and......we know what "works" god will judge us by....for that is a question that was asked of Jesus.

A man asked him what must he do to do the "works of God?"

Guess what Jesus answered?......(the answer is as I have always said)



In the context the man asked about what were the 'works".....the "workS" of God that gd is looking for from us?
The idea is that the guy wanted to know what things were requir4ed?..what things where in the list of stuff we need to do?

But Jesus corrects him and tells him of "Thee work of God"
The idea is that Jesus answers and says that if you want to know the truth there is "Only ONE work that God is seeking from us"


Just one.....that you believe in He that is sent.
for we are saved by GRACE though Faith.

[alanmolstad]

Alan--the only time "faith alone" is mentioned within the Biblical text is this instance:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What does Walter Martin say is the answer at the :32 point ofthe video.

Does Walter say its by "Faith alone"????



Have I ever said it was by "faith alone"...

Have I ever said it was by "fath and works"?

Have I ever said it was by "works alone"?




What have both I and Walter martin always taught, as we hear at the :32 second-point in the video?

[dberrie2000]

in an answer one time Jesus told the story of how at the judgement many men will have these huge lists of all the great "works' that they did to prove their salvation.
But Jesus totally rejected works as a means to that end...LOL

Sure He did:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

What does Walter Martin say is the answer at the :32 point ofthe video.

Does Walter say its by "Faith alone"????

All faith alone adherents believe it is by faith alone. That is what faith alone theology is--a salvation through a faith that is alone--without works. The faith alone preach a salvation through dead faith.

If you disagree--please list for us what works you add to faith in salvation.

Otherwise:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

What does Walter Martin say is the answer at the :32 point ofthe video.

Does Walter say its by "Faith alone"????



Have I ever said it was by "faith alone"...

Have I ever said it was by "fath and works"?

Have I ever said it was by "works alone"?




What have both I and Walter martin always taught, as we hear at the :32 second-point in the video?what does he say?

[alanmolstad]

All faith alone adherents believe it is by faith alone. That is what faith alone theology is--a salvation through a faith that is alone--without works. The faith alone preach a salvation through dead faith.

If you disagree--please list for us what works you add to faith in salvation.

Otherwise:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
What did walter say?

[dberrie2000]

What did walter say?

Walter is faith alone--he believes in a salvation through faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

I'm asking what does he say?....

[alanmolstad]

Does he say faith alone?

[dberrie2000]

I'm asking what does he say?....Does he say faith alone?

Walter Martin is faith alone--he believes that one is saved through a faith without works. That is what Walter explained--works are for justification before men--faith is for justification before God.

Interpretation:--Faith that is alone for salvation. One is saved through dead faith. That is faith alone (sola fide) theology.

If you disagree--please post to us what works you believe are added for salvation.

Alan--you are faith that is alone for salvation--are you not?

[alanmolstad]

I asked.....what did he say?

[alanmolstad]

Alan--you are faith that is alone for salvation--are you not?[/QUOTE]

The answer is at 32 second-point

[alanmolstad]

What does he say?

[alanmolstad]

What does he say?note I ask for what he says, the quote....and not what do you think he meant. ..

I have always said the very same thing as Walter says at that part of the clip, so if you are asking me what I believe (as you seem to be), and regardless of what I respond with you layer on stuff that has zero to do with my views but just is stuff you wanted me to have said, then perhaps I better ask you to "quote" Walter Martin.....quote him word for word, ....

That way regardless of how much you want him to have said "Faith alone" if you are forced to quote him correctly you are going to have to either quote him correctly , (and see your error),
Or.....

or intentionally misquote him or intentionally misrepresent his views...

So what does he say?



Does he say "Faith alone"?
Does he say "works alone"?
Does he say "Faith and works alone"?

Have I ever?

[dberrie2000]

note I ask for what he says, the quote....and not what do you think he meant. ..

Walter believes in faith alone theology--faith without works for salvation. That is what Walter is--faith alone.

Do you disagree?

[alanmolstad]

Walter believes in faith alone theology--faith without works for salvation. That is what Walter is--faith alone.

Do you disagree?
If you dont want to answer my question, just tell me...

But misrepresenting Walter's statements in the video is going to get me a bit upset...

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M


The answer to the question"Alan what do you believe?"is given in the video between the :30 to the :40 points.

Quote to me the answer as to what Walter and I believe, "Salvation is by _____alone "

[alanmolstad]

Walter believes in faith alone theology--faith without works for salvation. That is what Walter is--faith alone.

Do you disagree?
You kinda are getting into a dangerous area here....
...... It should go without being said that misrepresenting Walter's views is not going to tolerated.
I mean look around...

....so perhaps you better watch the video a little closer so you can quote his views a little closer to reality......




Now, once again, at the point in the video I have listed he says - "Salvation is by _____alone ?"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWalter believes in faith alone theology--faith without works for salvation. That is what Walter is--faith alone.

Do you disagree?


You kinda are getting into a dangerous area here....
...... It should go without being said that misrepresenting Walter's views is not going to tolerated.
I mean look around...

....so perhaps you better watch the video a little closer so you can quote his views a little closer to reality......


In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 3 (of 3)

June 23, 2009

By Kenneth R. Samples

In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 1 (of 3)
In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 2 (of 3)


However, Martin also believed that Christians must align both head and heart in devotion to the Lord. He believed that Christ’s followers are saved solely by grace, through faith alone, but were called to a life of gra***ude and holy service to God.

[alanmolstad]

At 30 second what does walter say salvation is by ....what?


.....alone" ?

[alanmolstad]

I like how when you trap a MORMON with facts they really wiggle

.lol

[dberrie2000]

I like how when you trap a MORMON with facts they really wiggle

.lol

Are you referring to these facts? :

In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 3 (of 3)

June 23, 2009

By Kenneth R. Samples

In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 1 (of 3)
In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 2 (of 3)


However, Martin also believed that Christians must align both head and heart in devotion to the Lord. He believed that Christ’s followers are saved solely by grace, through faith alone, but were called to a life of gra***ude and holy service to God.

[alanmolstad]

Wiggle-wiggle......

What does martin say at 30 seconds?

[alanmolstad]

What he says there is what I have always said too.

I can understand your hesitation.



But I'm still going to keep pressing the point.

[dberrie2000]

What he says there is what I have always said too.

I can understand your hesitation.

But I'm still going to keep pressing the point.

This point?

In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 3 (of 3)

June 23, 2009

By Kenneth R. Samples

In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 1 (of 3)
In Memory of Walter Martin (1928-1989): The Original Bible Answer Man, Part 2 (of 3)


However, Martin also believed that Christians must align both head and heart in devotion to the Lord. He believed that Christ’s followers are saved solely by grace, through faith alone, but were called to a life of gra***ude and holy service to God.

[alanmolstad]

Wiggle-wiggle......

What does martin say at 30 seconds?
......................?well?

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

What does Walter say salvation isn't by at :30 seconds of the video?

"Salvation isn't by _____"


What did he say???????

[dberrie2000]

What does Walter say salvation isn't by at :30 seconds of the video?

You tell us, Alan. Walter Martin was faith alone in his theology, as I have shown:

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200

Though Martin sees the SDA as standing very near to the edge, in the end, he equates them with Arminian evangelicals. His reason for doing so is that in the official documents of the SDA, chief of which is Questions and Answers, they affirm key doctrines such as the inerrancy of scripture and salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Martin is convinced that the SDA affirms these things in an evangelical manner.



http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/2007/01/book-kingdom-of-cults-on-seventh-day.html

With regards to their overall theological standpoint, Martin quotes from the Adventists' official teaching as found in the book Questions on Doctrine (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing ***ociation, 1957). In it, he showed that the Adventists are orthodox in their view of Scripture, their view of Christ, the completeness and suffuciency of the Atonement unto salvation, in their insistence of their belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. However, he also did highlight the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep, of annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering, and of the perculiar Adventist doctrines of the "Sanctuary" and of the "Investigative Judgment", the "Scapegoat teaching" and of course their strict Sabbaterianism.

[alanmolstad]

What does he say at 30 sec?

[dberrie2000]

What does he say at 30 sec?

You tell us, Alan.

Meanwhile:


http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200

Though Martin sees the SDA as standing very near to the edge, in the end, he equates them with Arminian evangelicals. His reason for doing so is that in the official documents of the SDA, chief of which is Questions and Answers, they affirm key doctrines such as the inerrancy of scripture and salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Martin is convinced that the SDA affirms these things in an evangelical manner.



http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/...venth-day.html

With regards to their overall theological standpoint, Martin quotes from the Adventists' official teaching as found in the book Questions on Doctrine (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing ***ociation, 1957). In it, he showed that the Adventists are orthodox in their view of Scripture, their view of Christ, the completeness and suffuciency of the Atonement unto salvation, in their insistence of their belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. However, he also did highlight the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep, of annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering, and of the perculiar Adventist doctrines of the "Sanctuary" and of the "Investigative Judgment", the "Scapegoat teaching" and of course their strict Sabbaterianism.

[alanmolstad]

What does he say at 30?

[alanmolstad]

I have always said the very same as is heard at 30:

So no need to ask me what I believe when you can hear the answer for yourself.

Thus the question remains What does he say there?

[alanmolstad]

And the reason you can't answer is....

That the video proof does not match what you wished were true......

Thus the wiggle out of answering my question goes on and on......

[alanmolstad]

What does he say at 30?
still asking......

[alanmolstad]

dberrie2000
check out the 1:28:00 point of this video to learn what my views are as spoken by Walter martin -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gufxYe1OhWs

[dberrie2000]

I have always said the very same as is heard at 30:

So no need to ask me what I believe when you can hear the answer for yourself.

Thus the question remains What does he say there?


Walter Martin is a faith alone adherent--what is there about that you disagree with?

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200

Though Martin sees the SDA as standing very near to the edge, in the end, he equates them with Arminian evangelicals. His reason for doing so is that in the official documents of the SDA, chief of which is Questions and Answers, they affirm key doctrines such as the inerrancy of scripture and salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Martin is convinced that the SDA affirms these things in an evangelical manner.



http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/...venth-day.html

With regards to their overall theological standpoint, Martin quotes from the Adventists' official teaching as found in the book Questions on Doctrine (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing ***ociation, 1957). In it, he showed that the Adventists are orthodox in their view of Scripture, their view of Christ, the completeness and suffuciency of the Atonement unto salvation, in their insistence of their belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. However, he also did highlight the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep, of annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering, and of the perculiar Adventist doctrines of the "Sanctuary" and of the "Investigative Judgment", the "Scapegoat teaching" and of course their strict Sabbaterianism.

[alanmolstad]

What does martin say for himself at 30 seconds of the video?

[alanmolstad]

You do realize that Im able to find videos and recordings that clearly represent Walter Martin's views from his own mouth, and that all you got is stuff people "say" about him right?

Now Im sure lots of people have all kinds of things they say about him, just as Im sure lots of people around this forum have all kinds of opinions as to what I personally believe.

But if you truly want to know what I believe you should come to me and ask, and i will tell you what I believe.
Just as in the same way to learn what walter martin believes we should go to him and allow him to tell us in his own words, what he believes....



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcf1J6AJB9M

What does Walter say salvation isn't by at :30 seconds of the video?

"Salvation isn't by _____"


What does Walter say salvation isn't by it alone, or even together with works?

I have plenty of information, about Martin's views that he has given in talks, speeches, and radio programs to chouse from to show you that everything I have said is supported by the FACTS!

Everything I post is from Martin's lips.



Thus you have to struggle it seems as you come to the conclusion that Martin believes as I have said.

Yet what we both hear Martin say at :30 seconds of the video simply does not fit with what you based your whole argument on......

So you struggle and try to hide the fact that you cant just post to me what Walter Martin says at the :30 second point in the video...




You cant do that, and I doubt you ever will.....
Because you know it would totally undercut the point you were attempting to make.


But Im going to keep asking you this question regardless.

What does he say he believes at the :30 second point?...
Im not asking you to agree with him
Im not saying that what he says he believes is word for word what others have written he believed...

Im just asking you to be honest with me,
and to listen to Walter tell us both what he believes in his own words,
and then quote that to me.





So what does he say he believes at the :30 sec point of the video?

[dberrie2000]

I have plenty of information, about Martin's views that he has given in talks, speeches, and radio programs to chouse from to show you that everything I have said is supported by the FACTS!

The fact is--Walter Martin was a faith alone adherent.

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200

Though Martin sees the SDA as standing very near to the edge, in the end, he equates them with Arminian evangelicals. His reason for doing so is that in the official documents of the SDA, chief of which is Questions and Answers, they affirm key doctrines such as the inerrancy of scripture and salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Martin is convinced that the SDA affirms these things in an evangelical manner.



http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/...venth-day.html

With regards to their overall theological standpoint, Martin quotes from the Adventists' official teaching as found in the book Questions on Doctrine (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing ***ociation, 1957). In it, he showed that the Adventists are orthodox in their view of Scripture, their view of Christ, the completeness and suffuciency of the Atonement unto salvation, in their insistence of their belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. However, he also did highlight the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep, of annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering, and of the perculiar Adventist doctrines of the "Sanctuary" and of the "Investigative Judgment", the "Scapegoat teaching" and of course their strict Sabbaterianism.

What have you got that denies that?

[alanmolstad]

Wiggle.....wiggle....wiggle.......

[alanmolstad]

What's he say for himself at :30?

[dberrie2000]

Wiggle.....wiggle....wiggle.......

You stated you have the facts to back up your information about Walter Martin. Please post the information you have that shows Walter Martin was not a faith alone adherent.

Meanwhile:

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200

Though Martin sees the SDA as standing very near to the edge, in the end, he equates them with Arminian evangelicals. His reason for doing so is that in the official documents of the SDA, chief of which is Questions and Answers, they affirm key doctrines such as the inerrancy of scripture and salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Martin is convinced that the SDA affirms these things in an evangelical manner.


http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/...venth-day.html

With regards to their overall theological standpoint, Martin quotes from the Adventists' official teaching as found in the book Questions on Doctrine (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing ***ociation, 1957). In it, he showed that the Adventists are orthodox in their view of Scripture, their view of Christ, the completeness and suffuciency of the Atonement unto salvation, in their insistence of their belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. However, he also did highlight the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep, of annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering, and of the perculiar Adventist doctrines of the "Sanctuary" and of the "Investigative Judgment", the "Scapegoat teaching" and of course their strict Sabbaterianism.

What have you got that denies that?

[alanmolstad]

What does he say at :30?

[alanmolstad]

You just don't like my question

.lol

[dberrie2000]

You just don't like my question

.lol

Your question can't change what Walter Martin and the faith alone preach--a salvation through a faith with works. That is faith alone theology--and one Walter Martin endorsed. Why are you ashamed of that?

[alanmolstad]

What does martin say at 30 seconds?

[dberrie2000]

What does martin say at 30 seconds?

You stated you have the facts to back up your information about Walter Martin. Please post the information you have that shows Walter Martin was not a faith alone adherent.

Meanwhile:

http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=200

Though Martin sees the SDA as standing very near to the edge, in the end, he equates them with Arminian evangelicals. His reason for doing so is that in the official documents of the SDA, chief of which is Questions and Answers, they affirm key doctrines such as the inerrancy of scripture and salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Martin is convinced that the SDA affirms these things in an evangelical manner.


http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/...venth-day.html

With regards to their overall theological standpoint, Martin quotes from the Adventists' official teaching as found in the book Questions on Doctrine (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing ***ociation, 1957). In it, he showed that the Adventists are orthodox in their view of Scripture, their view of Christ, the completeness and suffuciency of the Atonement unto salvation, in their insistence of their belief in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. However, he also did highlight the unorthodox doctrines of soul-sleep, of annihilation as opposed to eternal suffering, and of the perculiar Adventist doctrines of the "Sanctuary" and of the "Investigative Judgment", the "Scapegoat teaching" and of course their strict Sabbaterianism.

What have you got that denies that?

Bump for Alanmolstad

[alanmolstad]

What does he say at :30?


To sum it all up.

I was asked to provide proof as to the teachings of Walter Martin.
I was happy to do so, and provided even the very spot on the recording to get the answer from the very lips of Martin as to what he taught.

I listed this fact several times...

The Mormon I was talking to , tried to change the subject once they became aware that I really did have the facts on my side.

But....because Im right and the Mormon was wrong and because I proved this 100%.....and because the Mormon had been made to look so bad....the Mormon did what they do in situations like that.....and ran away.

[alanmolstad]

Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

I bet most LDS Critics will be tempted to say "yes."


Well.....
I think the answer is like this:

We already know that Jesus talked about people that will be able to list all kinds of works that they do in the name of Jesus, yet Jesus tells us that are lost and doomed because Jesus did not know them.
This shows us that simply doing stuff, even rather great stuff, is pointless and that what is truly needed in a person's life is a correct relationship with the truth Jesus of the Bible.




Now as for the idea of " identifying" a true Christian from a false teacher...
This is how that is done.
The example we have is found in the life of Paul.

Remember how Paul tells us that at Acts 17:11 people would listen to Paul and then open their Scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true?

So this then is the answer as to how to identify a true Christian...What we are to do is listen to them and then go to our Bible and put the things that say and do to the test of Scripture.