Grace Controversy!

[jade84116]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.:)

[tealblue]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.:)

Here is what we all agree on about grace

1 Its free

2 Its required for salvation

3 Its something God gives us

Here are some questions

1 Is grace unconditional

2 Is grace irrisistable

3 Is grace given only to whom god chooses

4 Can grace be lost

Depending on ones definition of grace changes ones whole perspective on everything about the christian faith.

I personally believe grace is free unmerited favor that transforms us holy so that we can be justified before God.

[Norrin Radd]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.:)

Not ALL Evangelicals make that claim. Many of us are happy to identify with Arminianism. I have seen knowledgeably Wesleyan-Arminians say that in practical terms, Geisler's "Moderate Calvinism" is barely (if at all) distinguishable from Arminianism, and I *think* I recall Geisler's son agreeing. Even in the book that sort of started this round of the debate, Chosen but Free, the book in which he self-identified with "Moderate" Calvinism, Geisler repudiated "Extreme" Arminianism (specifically "Open" Theism), but did not criticize "Moderate" Arminianism. One might reasonably conclude that while he identifies with what he calls Moderate Calvinism, Geisler would not feel far out of place within Moderate Arminianism.

[Saxon]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.:)



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is the total explanation of the salvation, faith and works relationship.

that God has towards mankind. Salvation is totally and without exception, a work of grace, by God alone. God is never obligated to save anyone. If God became obligated then being saved by grace would be a false statement. Mankind cannot do anything that would cause God to be obligated to save him or her. The only reason God saves us is because he wants to save us.

Grace (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace)

a: unmerited divine ***istance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

A practical example of grace is when banks would give 3 days grace to the client who had a loan or a mortgage. When the payment date came and the payment was not made the client had 3 days to make the payment without any extra fees or interest added to the principal. Those 3 days were a period of grace that the bank was not obligated to give a person but it was a free period where the client could make payment before the bank charged extra money. This is just an example of grace as we understand it. God’s grace operates the same way but there is no restriction on the time in this present era.

Faith (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith)

a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
(2): complete trust

It is through faith that God saves us by his grace. Acts 16:30 directly asks the question,” What must I do to be saved?” and Acts 16:31directly answers, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. This is all that a human being can do in order to be saved. Having faith and believing still does not obligate God to save anyone. The reason God saves us is that he wants to do it and he chose to save those that believe in Jesus. (See John 3:16)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we were “created in Christ Jesus unto good works”. Being saved we are placed into Christ and being “in Christ” we will do the works that God has desired us to do. Works are never done to gain salvation but works are a natural result of salvation by the grace of God.

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin spoke about the errors he saw in Calvinism.....
I have posted the recording link on this forum many times.

I tend to believe as Walter did, in that of the 5 points of Calvinism there are some worth knowing, and some that are worthless

[Saxon]

Walter Martin spoke about the errors he saw in Calvinism.....
I have posted the recording link on this forum many times.

I tend to believe as Walter did, in that of the 5 points of Calvinism there are some worth knowing, and some that are worthless
That is Good but how does it relate to what I posted???

[alanmolstad]

That is Good but how does it relate to what I posted???
your post?...I didnt even read your post.

My post was aimed at this quote taken from the person who started this topic...
"Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is


Walter Martin is connected with this term "Evangelicals"

[alanmolstad]

Jesus could not ask us to follow him, if we were unable to decide to do that.

We could not be asked to "repent" if we were unable to have 2nd thoughts about our actions, and change our minds.

The whole concept of sending out men to spread the word, or preaching the word, of telling people they need to change their ways, , all of this in the Great Commission is based on the idea that humans have free will and can respond.

[Dmarie]

Saxon - :) Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... :rolleyes: oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.



Hi, and blessings.

Well, I byp***ed my concordance, and I went straight to the Word of God, to the begining...in Genesis, in the garden...I read how God did give Adam and Eve the "freewill" to choose between being obedient to Him, or not.
We all know how that went.
God certainly, and obviously didn't make that choice for them, or...
did He?

By the way, I did a "look-see" and the word "Bible" in not found in the Bible either.

Blessings...Dmarie

[alanmolstad]

Dmarie...good commenting

[Saxon]

Saxon - :) Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... :rolleyes: oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.




After re-reading your positive response to my, "Grace is an At***ude" post, I have come to the conclusion that you have not understood my position at all. Your statement, " If we are "chosen" we are not "free"!" alerts me that I have failed to be clear in what I was saying.

Being chosen has nothing to do with being free. 2Timothy 1:9 states that God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. Those that were chosen were the ones that were already "in Christ Jesus" before the world began.

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Mankind has the freedom and responsibility to exercise faith in Christ. We have been given faith but we are the ones that resolve where we will place the faith that is given us, in Christ, or in something other than Christ.

You are correct in the fact that a concordance does not have "freewill" in it but neither does it have "Trinity" in it. We have been commanded to choose (See Joshua 24:15 and Isaiah 1:18 to 20).



2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

[alanmolstad]

we are always free...always

and we are always chosen...always...

[Saxon]

Please explain what you are saying and add some support from scripture.

[alanmolstad]

There is nothing stopping any man from believing, but himself and his own free will.
Christ wept for the people of the Holy City not because they 'could not" come to him because there were never drawn ,,,,,but that they "would not " come to him regardless of how much they were drawn.

We never lose our free Will.....
For our Free will is always part of the salvation story...


and that they who do come to Christians not just there by their own efforts, but rather God predestined us to become believers from before the world was made.

[Saxon]

There is nothing stopping any man from believing, but himself and his own free will.
Christ wept for the people of the Holy City not because they 'could not" come to him because there were never drawn ,,,,,but that they "would not " come to him regardless of how much they were drawn.

We never lose our free Will.....
For our Free will is always part of the salvation story...

I totally agree with the above statement. No argument at all.


and that they who do come to Christians not just there by their own efforts, but rather God predestined us to become believers from before the world was made.

I see NOTHING in scripture that states that anyone has been predestined by God to become believers. I see statements that tell us that those that are in Christ, saved people are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. There are those that are in Christ that are predestined to adoption. The only ones that are predestined by God to anything are those that are already in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[alanmolstad]

none that are predestined are lost.......none!

all that are predestined are saved....all!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/waltermartindotcom/2014/03/02/the-mystery-of-predestination

[Saxon]

none that are predestined are lost.......none!

all that are predestined are saved....all!


God has chosen us, which are in Christ, to all spiritual blessings before the foundation of the world. In Christ he did also predestinate us unto the adoption of children. In Christ we have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will. Also, in Christ, after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

God has not predestined chosen or blessed anyone that is not first in Christ. A person must freely believe and receive Christ in order to partake in the blessings that God has predestined for those that are in Christ and love him.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God does not predestine or choose anyone to salvation nor does he let the rest “go his or her natural way”. Jesus is the true light that lights every man that comes into the world. (See John 1:9) Every person that ever was or ever will be has an equal opportunity to believe in and receive Christ. God chooses in accordance with the decision that each person has to make, either reject Christ and remain in sin or accept Christ and be saved. God has chosen us because the Spirit has sanctified us and he sanctified us because we believed the truth. (See 2Thess. 2:13)

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

2Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

[alanmolstad]

there is no "later" with God

God does not actually do anything "after" something else.

God does not "predestine" someone after something else that came first.




Its like what Walter talks about in the link I posted....where the image is that we walk into heaven under a banner of "Welcome all yea who have responded"...only to get on the other side and read on the same banner, "None were lost, all who enter were chosen and predestined from before the world was made, none were lost, all were saved"

[Saxon]

You have said nothing that is of any use to the topic. Your link didn't even say anything .

You are a moderator and you should have more skills at responding to posts that you disagree with.

Show me scripture that even comes close to stating what you have poorly stated.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJE8NDGpZmA


The point to note is at 6:30 of the video.


"Now, how do you maintain the freedom of God, and His sovereignty, and the freedom of man and his choice?

"Are you ready?"

"You don't" !

"It is an unanswered question. You will search though all scriptures, you will never find the answer"

[Saxon]

Walter is not the inspired source of scripture. I am sure that he would agree. He quoted the same scripture that I quoted in my previous post and has missed the same thing that you have missed. "In Christ" Nothing happens to people (predestination) until they are in Christ. There is no statement directly stating that God predestined anyone to salvation. In the clear statements as to what people are predestined to it is clear that it is the saved that have been predestined. The lost are not included in what God has predestined. Remember we were all born lost sinners and we were NOT in Christ until we were saved in time upon the earth. No one is born saved.

[alanmolstad]

You are a moderator and you should have more skills ......

Being a Mod does not make a person smart. (wish it did, but it doesn't)
But it does require one to be patient.

[Saxon]

I am slipping, sorry.

You as a person should be more clear and to the point with your answers. That is my opinion.

[alanmolstad]

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...

[Saxon]

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...


The fortunate thing about your statement is that it is totally true in accordance with the Bible. That is exactly what the Bible says about salvation. That is all that we know about salvation, if we indeed know anything. To be honest with you that is all that we can know about salvation is the human point of view because God told us in human point of view terms about salvation and if you look around, we, as a collective, still have it unclear. Just look at the controversy that is totally obvious just on these forums. Mormons, Catholics, JW, UPC, and on it goes. No one agrees about salvation.

Now you want to explain it from God’s point of view?? You are only fooling yourself if you really think that you have a clue about God’s point of view. (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

You have made a few philosophical statements that are likely true about God:
God does not learn. God does not wait. God does not have to glance into the future to know. God is not held in time's grasp.

But this has nothing to do with what God has revealed to man on man’s level so man could come close to understanding about salvation. The last part of the statement is pure emotional drivel with no scriptural support to it what so ever.

I totally reject your argument. Start again but keep it on the human point of view because that is as close to a true understanding that you or I will ever get.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

to only look at a issue from a point of view you know is lacking, is not wise.

The human point of view is very much lacking.

I have no problem looking at the question of my salvation from God's point of view.

This keeps me from falling into the trap of both Calvin and Arminius...for once you get trapped in their teachings you mess up your understanding of both God and the universe

[Saxon]

We cannot understand God's point of view (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

Delving into what we cannot understand only serves to confuse the subject.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

We cannot understand God's point of view (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

.then we cant be judged....

[Saxon]

We are not judged on the basics of our inability to understand God, at his level, but on our actions in time, in accordance with what God has revealed to us at a level of our capability to understand. Your argument is still invalid.

[alanmolstad]

when I send a child to the store, and they come back from the store with the wrong thing,...then I cant blame them for this unless I made it very clear to them what I wanted.

If I hid anything from them , then I cant blame them for not understanding ...and for failing to bring me what I wanted.

[Saxon]

Are you suggesting that God somehow didn't tell us something? God told us what we need to know at a level that we are capable of understanding. If he had told us at his level or point of view then you can be sure that we would never understand. Look and read what Isaiah 55:8-9 is saying then you explain to me what you think it is saying.


Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJE8NDGpZmA



at 7:05
"Now Calvin was wrong when he said that God predestined men to hell, and James Arminius was wrong when he said you willed your way to heaven"


So the answer is?

Well the answer is not that God just looked into the future, saw who would eventually would believe, and so predestined them, for that would make us somehow "special"...somehow worth saving where others were not.

And we know that is not true for the bible says all have fallen short, that there is none righteous, no not one!

So the answer is not that God just knew who was going to believe and so saved them, for that would make us 'good'
and the answer is not that God just arbitrarily decided to say, "You I will save and to hell with the rest of you"

So if thats what it NOT the answer, what is the answer?

The answer is this -
In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


That's the answer....

[Saxon]

I have already commented on this video. I would rather have you explain it in your own words and thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

.......

The answer is this -
In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


That's the answer....


and that is why my teaching on the matter (in my own words) is the following -


from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...

[Saxon]

I have also commented on this and do not agree with you because of scripture that points to man's inability to understand God unless he comunicates to us on OUr level because we have no hope of understanding him from his level and point of view.

I do not agree with your conclusion as to God predesignating the unsaved to anything, especially to salvation.

Ephesians 1:3 to 13, if read with the idea that it is those that are in Christ as stated in these verses are the ones that all the blessing mentioned are for those that are found to be in Christ by the grace of God through faith then it makes more sense that God picked a few for no apparent reason.

[alanmolstad]

In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.

[Saxon]

What do you believe that God knows and foreordains? Scripture that leads you to your belief would be helpful.

When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God's supposed foreordaining of the questioned events?

[alanmolstad]

What do you believe that God knows?......


Near the ending of the teaching part of the video I posted, you hear Walter talk about the fact that as his life has went on he has become more and more convinced that "Nothing happens by accident"

That God knows everything about everything.

[alanmolstad]

What do you believe that God .....foreordains?
If we say that God "foreordains us humans , but nothing else to happen in the universe?....., we are limiting God, or making ourselves special....both are errors.

[alanmolstad]

When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God's ......?


The answer is "yes"


it is as I said above -

"The answer is this -
In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


That's the answer....

[Saxon]

That clearly does not answer my question.

[Saxon]

No scripture to support????

[alanmolstad]

That clearly does not answer my question.
Walter actually addressed your point as well at 8:50 of the linked video.


"You expected Parcheesi?"
"Chinese checkers?"

[alanmolstad]

No scripture to support????

well, ok,
But you did kinda ask for me to answer in my own words...

[alanmolstad]

But you do ask a question that many teachers have also asked, - "When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God?"

The way your question is worded it ***umes that the answer is one or the other.
The question is written that way because we humans tend to think that way...
We like to believe that an answer is ether "this" or its "that".

We look at the text from this mindset that only one can be true and we find plenty of support for our answer, and thereby automatically dismiss the many Texts that support the other side.

This is the error of both Calvin and Arminius.

But the truth is, that if you look you can find support for both answers being true.

How can this be true?.....the answer to that is "Why would it not be this way, considering you are dealing with the mind of God?"





Thus we get to the answer I have learned to trust, from a Bible teacher I have learned to trust, "In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.

[alanmolstad]

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...

I think my post above is very clear...
I addressed the question of salvation from both the limited, human point of view, and from the eternal point of view of the Lord's.

[Saxon]

How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.

[alanmolstad]

From the beginng...nothing was unknown or left to chance

[alanmolstad]

I posted the video that talks about this on the first page...post 21 I think

[alanmolstad]

How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.

Within God's preordained plan for men there was taken into account man's ability to respond

[Saxon]

That has nothing to do with my statement or question.

[Saxon]

That has nothing to do with my statement or question either.

[Saxon]

And I responded to that already.

[alanmolstad]

That has nothing to do with my statement or question either.

It is my answer

[Saxon]

Your answer has nothing to do with what I asked.

[alanmolstad]

Well it's too bad you think that but this is my answer none the less.

I believe my answer is in full agreement with Walter Martin

[Saxon]

Maybe it was someone else's question you were answering???

[alanmolstad]

You might try another question....something new

[Saxon]

You didn't answer this one so I won't stress you out over any more that you won't answer.

[alanmolstad]

You didn't answer this one so I won't stress you out over any more that you won't answer.

If a person is asking about how men can be held responsible yet all things are predestined? ....
Then this is the answer...


That within the preordained plan of God there is perfect union between God's full control of the universe and man's ability to respond.

[Saxon]

This was the question: How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.

You have said nothing to address anything that I have specifically inquired about.

[alanmolstad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuUKE5resPs




the video lists the common text on this subject...starting with Ephesians 1

4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

[alanmolstad]

To what were you predestined?

to enter into the very presence of God at the end of time.


"to be holy and blameless in His presence"

[alanmolstad]

When were you predestined? .
Before the creation happened...before time.

"before the foundation of the world "

[alanmolstad]

so that above supports what I said about looking at this question from the Lord's point of view.

Now we will look at this from man's point of view

"When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"

Here we see at Ephesians 1:13 the text supports what I have taught on man's ability to respond to God.
This shows that we are held responsible to answering the calling that we receive.



This all supports what I said before..

[Saxon]

Great. Now to what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

[Saxon]

You are going off track. What were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

[alanmolstad]

Great. Now to what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.


" He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence." - Ephesians 1:4



This is talking about a Christian being now able to walk right into the holy or holies in heaven....to be able to be there, face to face with God....the very presence of God Almighty!.......Amen!!!!

[alanmolstad]

and all this was set in stone before creation...

[Saxon]

To what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

[alanmolstad]

so in other words, its talking about a plan God had for me...this plan was set in stone and could not be changed from before creation happend...

the plan took into account my own ability to answer and respond to God.

So there is a union between God's sovereignty and man's ability to respond

[alanmolstad]

To what were you predestined to? Book chapter and verse for biblical support.

Ephesians 1:4

[alanmolstad]

any questions?

[Saxon]

What were you predestined to? That is the question.

[Saxon]

That is fatalism not faith.

[Saxon]

Your first sentence has cancelled the second. If it is "set in stone" you have no choice your ability to respond is not there.

[alanmolstad]

Before the world was created God chose me to be with him as holy and sinless...this had nothing to do with me.

[alanmolstad]

Your first sentence has cancelled the second. If it is "set in stone" you have no choice your ability to respond is not there.

actually within the plan of god for me, there is a perfect union of his sovereignty and my free will....his rule of the universe took into account my ability to respond to him...

[alanmolstad]

Your first sentence has cancelled the second. If it is "set in stone" you have no choice your ability to respond is not there.

You know.....

In the video I posted by the Walter Martin, he does address this very same type of issue you raise here...

I will post it again,,

Try listening to the point starting at around 3:00 point of the recording


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuUKE5resPs&t=479s

[Saxon]

actually within the plan of god for me, there is a perfect union of his sovereignty and my free will....his rule of the universe took into account my ability to respond to him...

Within the sovereignty of God, man has total free will. God made man a free moral agent. All are free to be save in accordance with God’s plan and all are free to remain in their sins.

[alanmolstad]

men are trapped in time, god is not,

Before the creation of the universe, god already saw me,,,(as clearly as he can see me now , and see me at my death, ) ......he already saw me with him in eternal glory after the resurrection.


And this is not just by my decision or by accident....for God had already chosen me personalty to be saved.

Nothing was left to chance,

Nothing was left in doubt...

Nothing was left for me to do....

Nothing was left up to me to decide.





God was not just reacting to what God saw happen in the ending.....NO!.....God alone was the soul cause and lone author of my salvation!!!!!!

[alanmolstad]

Look at the text you quoted -

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.







It comes down to the sovereignty of God....
This is to me, the fact that God decided my fate.
Not me.


God picked me to be saved....I did not decide this.

I did not choose to be a friend of God, he decided to be my friend.



God picked me by name, before the universe was made.

[alanmolstad]

To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.[/B]
.


The list of verses you quote are also what Walter quotes in the video I posted...

[alanmolstad]

so to sum it up-



There are two things going on at the same time that while very different, they are yet able to be in perfect union.


These are the two things-
#1 - the sovereignty of God.
#2 - the ability if man to respond within his human free will.


Now at first glance these two things will always appear to be in conflict. And it truth if you are looking for an easy to understand system that will clearly define how they can be in perfect union you are going to be disappointed.
The disappointment is caused by the fact that we are dealing with the creator. (In other words we are nothing like him)


But yet from the verses we have looked at, and as we have listened to in the video by Walter Martin, we have come to see that while we might not fully understand how #1 and #2 can be in union they are yet clearly described as being in perfect union by the Bible.


The Bible tells us that before the universe was created God had already decided what people were to be saved.
Not a doubt about this.
Not just left up to people to decide.
No, for God decided the fate of every Christian before they person's atoms were created billions of years ago.

God predestined my fate...my future.

None of this was left to chance,
Nothing about this was left to the whim of human intervention.

This is God's sovereignty over his creation!




And yet at the same time, we see clearly that God allowed us human freewill and the ability to respond to Him.
The human freewill does not know the future,so the human does not kow the future.
So from our limited point of view we dont see the ending from the beginning.
We humans dont have a clue what is about to happen.

So we humans dont know who God has already picked to be with him in heaven.

The future to us, is totally unknown and cant ever be known.





Thus both #1 deaing with God's full control of his creation, and #2 dealing with Man's freewill and ignorance of the future are always working hand in hand with each other.

There is perfect union.

[alanmolstad]

Question: "When did God choose me?"


Answer : Ephesians 1:4 says, “He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

[alanmolstad]

Predestination! Does God choose me or do I choose God?


Predestination in the Bible is ALWAYS a positive thing.
It is always there to comfort us (e.g. Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:4-14).
If you have chosen God, then take heart, because it means God has predestined you to be one of His heirs.

Predestination means we can have greater ***urance" because if God is for us and has already decided we will be His, then nothing any person can do can take that away.

Predestination is not something that should make us more worried about where we stand with God.
It should make us realise that since God is responsible for making people Christians, we should be less worried, because the source of our trust is not ourselves, but God Himself.
http://christianity.net.au/questions/predestination_does_god_choose_me_or_do_i_choose_g od

[alanmolstad]

Question: "What is predestination?

Answer : The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.”

So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.


According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals ( like me personally) would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified.

Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved


https://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html

[alanmolstad]

skip to 2:40 of the video and listen as Walter talks about why I ended up being a Christian.

I did not become a Christian by my own volition

I did not choose God, God has chosen me.

for we Christians (quoting Martin), "have been selected by Him, by Christ, before time began"

[Saxon]

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

[alanmolstad]

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

No idea it was not seen?

[alanmolstad]

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

Unknown. ..

Is the missing post up now?

[alanmolstad]

Why did you not allow my post to be seen? yesterday? you seem to be responding to it now.

I did notice yesterday that the forum was getting "stuck" again...and my posts would not load correctly.

Let me know if you have any problems today.
And check if anything appears odd in any way as you post?

[alanmolstad]

Also.....if you have a big post to place on the board try to copy it before you post as this might save it should the forum get stuck...
I have been told by other members that longer comments can get lost easy for some reason?

[Saxon]

men are trapped in time, god is not,

Before the creation of the universe, god already saw me,,,(as clearly as he can see me now , and see me at my death, ) ......he already saw me with him in eternal glory after the resurrection.

And this is not just by my decision or by accident....for God had already chosen me personalty to be saved.
Nothing was left to chance,
Nothing was left in doubt...
Nothing was left for me to do....
Nothing was left up to me to decide.

Where in the Bible does it state that God has chosen anyone to be saved on an individual basis? In the video that you posted, Walter Martin rejects that Idea that started with John Calvin. You use Dr. Martin as your authoritative source and you have ignored him.

As far as you having nothing left to decide you now contradict the scripture that calls you to salvation. You were not saved until you were born into this world and came to the point in your existence that you received Christ and were saved and became a son of God. (See John 1:12) Nothing was left to chance. God waited until you were “in Christ”, saved, before he predestined you to anything. Ephesians 1:3 and 4 states that blessings and predestinations were bestowed on those that were “IN CHRIST”. There was not a soul that was in Christ before the foundation of the world and it is not a Bible statement that God predestined anyone to salvation, or for that matter, hell.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:



God was not just reacting to what God saw happen in the ending.....NO!.....God alone was the soul cause and lone author of my salvation!!!!!!

Yes, God is the sole cause and lone author of your salvation. It was not that he indiscriminately decided to save you, but it was because you had acted in faith to the call of God and received Christ. (See Ephesians 2:8 and 9, and John 1:12) God did not force you, you made a decision totally of your own free will.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:



Look at the text you quoted -

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It comes down to the sovereignty of God....
This is to me, the fact that God decided my fate.
Not me.

God picked me to be saved....I did not decide this.

I did not choose to be a friend of God, he decided to be my friend.
God picked me by name, before the universe was made.

Nothing that I quoted from scripture supports your heretical claim that you were not required to decide to turn from your sins and receive Christ. If you have failed to make that choice, you are still in your sins. Read it over and see that everything it is promising depends on the receiver of the promises being “in Christ”.




The list of verses you quote are also what Walter quotes in the video I posted...

Walter also missed the “in Christ” stipulation.




so to sum it up-

There are two things going on at the same time that while very different, they are yet able to be in perfect union.

These are the two things-
#1 - the sovereignty of God.
#2 - the ability if man to respond within his human free will.

Now at first glance these two things will always appear to be in conflict. And it truth if you are looking for an easy to understand system that will clearly define how they can be in perfect union you are going to be disappointed.
The disappointment is caused by the fact that we are dealing with the creator. (In other words we are nothing like him)

There is never any conflict in these two concepts. Within the sovereignty of God, man is a free moral agent with total free will. The problem is that you concept of the sovereignty of God is that you seem to have it on the level of a spoiled brat that lashes out when said brat does not get his own way. That is so far from the truth. (God wants all to be saved but that is not going to happen) (See 2 Peter 3:9)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.




But yet from the verses we have looked at, and as we have listened to in the video by Walter Martin, we have come to see that while we might not fully understand how #1 and #2 can be in union they are yet clearly described as being in perfect union by the Bible.

The Bible tells us that before the universe was created God had already decided what people were to be saved.

Show me from the Bible, book, chapter and verse where this is stated. (The Bible tells us that before the universe was created God had already decided what people were to be saved.)




Not a doubt about this.
Not just left up to people to decide.
No, for God decided the fate of every Christian before they person's atoms were created billions of years ago.

God predestined my fate...my future.
None of this was left to chance,
Nothing about this was left to the whim of human intervention.

This is God's sovereignty over his creation!

And yet at the same time, we see clearly that God allowed us human freewill and the ability to respond to Him.
The human freewill does not know the future,so the human does not kow the future.
So from our limited point of view we dont see the ending from the beginning.
We humans dont have a clue what is about to happen.

So we humans dont know who God has already picked to be with him in heaven.

The future to us, is totally unknown and cant ever be known.

Thus both #1 deaing with God's full control of his creation, and #2 dealing with Man's freewill and ignorance of the future are always working hand in hand with each other.

There is perfect union.

This statement is pure emotional drivel with no biblical support.

[alanmolstad]

Or if you are getting any message saying a comment must be "approved " that is an error. ..I have no idea why that happens?

We don't require any posts to be approved first.

[Saxon]

I tried a few moments ago with the same results; not post appeared and the same notice showed.

[alanmolstad]

well...........

darn........


I will once again send a message to the owner about the problem posting.

We saw this same thing happen about a year or so ago, and try as I might, no matter what was done it did not correct the problem...so this is discouraging.

If you are getting a message that your posts need to be approved by the MOD first?...trust me, that is a error and I sure dont approve any posts beforehand.
Also, I dont even get a message telling me to approve any posts.???


and , I actually saw this same message for a few of my posts!.....telling me I had to have my own posts approved by the MOD when I'm the Mod!!!.


So this has got to be some type of error in the system.



I will message the owner right now.

.

[alanmolstad]

I tried a few moments ago with the same results; not post appeared and the same notice showed.

let me know what you read when you attempt to post a comment.

also, in my own case, I saw the same message for my own posts and I yet did not receive that type of message when I posted on other topics, , so could you check out if you get the same problem when you attempt to post comments on other parts of the forum?

[Saxon]

Answer : Ephesians 1:4 says, “He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

God never chose any individual to salvation. If you look at the text you posted you will see that it states that he chose "us in him" (in Christ) Again, there was no one in Christ before the foundation of the world. No one was saved before the foundation of the world. Anyone that is saved is saved in time and at salvation we are placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. When we were placed into the body of Christ we received all the blessings and predestining that was promised to those that Were in Christ.

[Saxon]

That has absolutely nothing to do whith any statement that the Bible has about predestination.

[Saxon]

Once more; God does not predestine people to salvation. If it is, show me the book chapter and verse that indicates that God predestines individuals to salvation. Show it!

[Saxon]

I want a Bible quote, you know, the authority for Christian faith and doctrine. I am sure that Dr. Martian would also insist on the same.

[alanmolstad]

skip to 2:40 of the video and listen as Walter talks about why I ended up being a Christian.

I did not become a Christian by my own volition

I did not choose God, God has chosen me.

for we Christians (quoting Martin), "have been selected by Him, by Christ, before time began"

from the beginning I was not just known to be a saved Christian with the Lord, I was planned and predetermined to be that .
Before even the atoms that are in me were created billions and billions of years ago, God caused my future to be what it one day will prove to be to me.
For - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,




and as I said, this all is very clear in the Walter Martin video I posted, all you have to do is click on over to the point of the video clip I pointed to and have a listen to learn how God does predestine people to salvation!

[alanmolstad]

so to sum it up....

God predestined the Christian to be with him in eternity.
God saw this as a done-deal,,nothing was in doubt about it...

And at the same time, We are called to believe, and until we do believe we are lost in our sins.

[alanmolstad]

so the ending is much like the ending with the whole topic on the ability of men to decide things that is found in the many "Free Will" topics.

There are some people that just latch onto one side of this topic and cant see the other side's merits at all.

To some people, God cant have decided who would be saved from before time began as they believe that takes away from man's free will , and his ability to choose.

On the other side, there are some people that claim free will cant be real as that would interfere with God's total authority.


Thus we end up with these two camps that simple reject all the points that are true about the other camp's arguements.



But I take a different point of view on this matter.
I have found in the words of Walter Martin, that there is no need at all to jump on only one side and ignore the other's merit.

Walter Martin talks about how both sides of this issue have truth to them, as well as error within their argument.


And so my own POV is the same as Walter Martin's, that man has free will, and God has authority to predetermine all things.