Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

[maklelan]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

A person must be an active participant in his/her own salvation. Salvation is a joint / cooperative work. Spiritual lip-serving couch potatoes don't make it.

[BrianH]

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH
.

Making it? Not really, though it is still something God cannot do for you.

Following through on a decision? Yes. I consider that work.

Do you consider lip-service Christianity sufficient and sincere?

[John T]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

Whenever someone posits only two choices to choose from, and there is another, or more choices available, that is faulty logic. Since it offers only two choices, both of which are in error, it is a false choice error.
The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any way.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Notice verse 3 says that all believers have a SPIRITUAL blessing, and it is IN heaven, and IN Jesus Christ by God the Father

Notice in verse 4 tells us that we are "chosen in him [Jesus] BEFORE the foundation of the earth". By definition the word "chosen" rules out anything arbitrary, as the OP suggests, and the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" rules out any human work. That is why the OP is a false choice dilemma.

Notice also that the telos, or purpose of this being chosen before the Earth began is so that believers can be "holy and blameless IN LOVE.The fact that the believers are chosen in love is because they will NOT be chosen from works, and thus salvation be a wage earned for work accomplished.

Notice in verse 5 that God has predestinated us to be adopted children of Jesus Christ, solely because it made God happy to do so.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Mak, but the OP is so wrong for so many ways. Primarially it is wrong because it is an***hetical to Scripture.

However, accourding to your book, people are saved AFTER doing all that they can do first. So what you are doing is trying to Mormonize Christian theology. Ain't gonna work.

[maklelan]

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

.

Absolutely. Do you not?

[maklelan]

Whenever someone posits only two choices to choose from, and there is another, or more choices available, that is faulty logic.

That goes without saying. The problem is showing there are more choices available. Let's see if you're up to it.


Since it offers only two choices, both of which are in error, it is a false choice error.

Lovely ***ertion, but can you support it?


The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any way.

But does that will act, as far as we're concerned, arbitrarily, or because of our works?



Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Notice verse 3 says that all believers have a SPIRITUAL blessing, and it is IN heaven, and IN Jesus Christ by God the Father


Doesn't answer the question.


Notice in verse 4 tells us that we are "chosen in him [Jesus] BEFORE the foundation of the earth". By definition the word "chosen" rules out anything arbitrary, as the OP suggests,

Actually it does no such thing. Choices are often arbitrary.


and the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" rules out any human work. That is why the OP is a false choice dilemma.

I'm afraid it doesn't. You've merely ***erted that the word "chosen" precludes something arbitrary, which it absolutely doesn't.


Notice also that the telos, or purpose of this being chosen before the Earth began is so that believers can be "holy and blameless IN LOVE.The fact that the believers are chosen in love is because they will NOT be chosen from works, and thus salvation be a wage earned for work accomplished.

Notice in verse 5 that God has predestinated us to be adopted children of Jesus Christ, solely because it made God happy to do so.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Mak, but the OP is so wrong for so many ways. Primarially it is wrong because it is an***hetical to Scripture.

However, accourding to your book, people are saved AFTER doing all that they can do first. So what you are doing is trying to Mormonize Christian theology. Ain't gonna work.

So without realizing it, you recognize that salvation is arbitrary. You don't want to admit it, so you nakedly ***ert being chosen arbitrarily really isn't arbitrary. We're all ***igned a lot that has nothing to do with what we believe or how we live, which means nothing anyone is saying here or anywhere else in the universe makes a bit of difference to our salvation. That's totally unbiblical. Humans have their own will.

[theway]

The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any

No! that merely begs the question, because if it is God’s sovereign will for all to be saved, Then why is it, everybody is not saved?
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[nrajeff]

By the way, I think it might be important to agree on what "work" was understood to mean in biblical times. In ancient Israel, the term did not include a thought or belief or a decision that a person arrived at. "Works of The Law" referred to actions, specifically the actions that were mentioned in Mosaic Law. It was those legalistic rules that the N.T. refers to as being unable to save, or leading to "death."

So the decision to believe in and have faith in Jesus as one's savior is not a work in the biblical definition. Neither is acting on one's faith--obeying Jesus' teachings on loving one another, for example. It wouldn't be called a work by the biblical definition. It could be called a good deed, which is something that Christians are commanded to do, and are among the conditions for salvation. They are among the things that Jesus said are required for a person to "be perfect" in their obeying the commandments.

[Richard]

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

.

Brian, do you believe that God, before the foundation of the world, for His own glory did elect a great mul***ude of men and women to eternal life as an act of free and sovereign grace. This election was in no way dependent upon His foresight of human faith, decision, works or merit.


R.

[John T]

That goes without saying. The problem is showing there are more choices available. Let's see if you're up to it. [rude condescension noted]

Lovely ***ertion, but can you support it?The Bible need support???

But does that will act, as far as we're concerned, arbitrarily, or because of our works? Right, God is capricious

Doesn't answer the question. BINGO!!! Scripture of the Bible is insufficient for mak

Actually it does no such thing. Choices are often arbitrary. Actually he is saying that God is arbitrary because He made a choice before the foundation of the earth, as Scripture says.

I'm afraid it doesn't. You've merely ***erted that the word "chosen" precludes something arbitrary, which it absolutely doesn't. Now we are back to his stating that God is arbitrary.

So without realizing it, you recognize that salvation is arbitrary. You don't want to admit it, so you nakedly ***ert being chosen arbitrarily really isn't arbitrary. We're all ***igned a lot that has nothing to do with what we believe or how we live, which means nothing anyone is saying here or anywhere else in the universe makes a bit of difference to our salvation. That's totally unbiblical. Humans have their own will.What an unbiblical view of God you have! I cite Scripture saying that God does this, and you find it insufficient.

Your "refutations" are merely your own biased viewpoints,founded upon spurious logic, having nothing to do with the evidence presented. Instead of presenting Scriptures that would bolster your ***ertions (there are none, BTW) you elevate your thinking over the mind and will of a just sovereign and totally righteous God in order to speciously charge Him with being arbitrary because you do not like the fact that He made an omnipotent choice before the Earth was formed.

That takes chutzpah, and you have an abundance of it.

(((((The Bible isn't Biblical enough?))))) Gimme a break.

[Richard]

Whenever someone posits only two choices to choose from, and there is another, or more choices available, that is faulty logic. Since it offers only two choices, both of which are in error, it is a false choice error.
The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any way.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Notice verse 3 says that all believers have a SPIRITUAL blessing, and it is IN heaven, and IN Jesus Christ by God the Father

Paul recognized that persons could "fall from grace" if they rejected Christ by conduct inconsistent with the law of love—conduct injurious to the covenant relationship—such as murder, fornication, or sodomy ( Galatians 5:5—6, 19—21).

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Notice also that the telos, or purpose of this being chosen before the Earth began is so that believers can be "holy and blameless IN LOVE.The fact that the believers are chosen in love is because they will NOT be chosen from works, and thus salvation be a wage earned for work accomplished.

Notice in verse 5 that God has predestinated us to be adopted children of Jesus Christ, solely because it made God happy to do so.


According to you John and verse 5, persons can accept the saving Grace only because God has predestined them to Salvation. So those who do not accept God's efficacious grace, or grace that accomplishes their salvation, fail to do so because God has decided in his arbitrary election to leave them to ****ation. So in essence, ****ation has also been arbitrarily predestined. Am I correct in stating this as Creedal Evangelism John?


John states, "Sorry to rain on your parade, Mak, but the OP is so wrong for so many ways. Primarially it is wrong because it is an***hetical to Scripture."

This concept of prevenient grace makes God an arbitrary and evil tyrant. He could save all persons, but he has decided not to. This is not the God of love taught by Jesus. This view of grace makes God unjust, unfair, unloving, and loathsome. If God can save everyone, and he desires to save everyone out of love, then why has he decided to leave some persons to ****ation? It just won't do to observe that we all deserve to be ****ed, so we should be grateful that God has decided to save some of us? As for me John, I cannot worship such a God, my Father in Heaven has given us all the gift of Free Will, no one excluded or predestinated to be arbitrarily chosen.
The Elect are not Chosen by God, but the Elect choose God.



R.

[John T]

Most excellent, Dude! Instead of using specious logic, you go to the effort of citing Scripture to refute my ***ertions


Paul recognized that persons could "fall from grace" if they rejected Christ by conduct inconsistent with the law of love—conduct injurious to the covenant relationship—such as murder, fornication, or sodomy ( Galatians 5:5—6, 19—21).

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Before we jump to conclusions, let's look at the CONTEXT of Galatians to discover what Paul was talking about.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Notice two things in verse 6: the Gospel of Jesus is called "the Gospel of grace" and anything other than the "gospel of grace" is called ANOTHER (totally different) gospel.

Verses 7 & 8 calls that other gospel, a "perversion" and Paul actually says that anyone proclaiming anything other than what taught is ****ed. That also includes "an angel from heaven" teaching anything different than what Jesus taught. (As I read that, my mind goes to the statue of Moroni on top of Cumorrah, and I do not believe that that is in Scripture by accident)

Therefore, Paul is talking about a heresy being taught in Galatia.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Here is a repe***ion of the other verses above.



According to you John and verse 5, persons can accept the saving Grace only because God has predestined them to Salvation. So those who do not accept God's efficacious grace, or grace that accomplishes their salvation, fail to do so because God has decided in his arbitrary election to leave them to ****ation. So in essence, ****ation has also been arbitrarily predestined. Am I correct in stating this as Creedal Evangelism John? I am unfamiliar with your term, so I will not comment. What is important is NOT what I say, rather what the Bible says. So if you do not like what verse 5 says, I suggest that you pray to God, asking him to make it clear. He did not stutter when he wrote it. I am NOT being snarky when I write that, but ask Him to reveal the truth of that verse, and I am sure He will.



This concept of prevenient grace makes God an arbitrary and evil tyrant. He could save all persons, but he has decided not to. This is not the God of love taught by Jesus. This view of grace makes God unjust, unfair, unloving, and loathsome. If God can save everyone, and he desires to save everyone out of love, then why has he decided to leave some persons to ****ation?

It just won't do to observe that we all deserve to be ****ed, so we should be grateful that God has decided to save some of us? As for me John, I cannot worship such a God, my Father in Heaven has given us all the gift of Free Will, no one excluded or predestinated to be arbitrarily chosen.[/QUOTE]
The topic of prevenient (enabling) grace is not the issue here.

Why are you calling God an "evil tyrant"? He does what He does because he is God, and He is right. You are elevating mere human reason over the all the attributes of God.

Are you saying in this sentence that there is something inherently good in humanity that would be pleasing to God? It just won't do to observe that we all deserve to be ****ed If that is true, it does not square with Scripture in many places. "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 is an example.

You are arguing against Scripture, and that is futile. If you do not like what he wrote, ask God to clarify that, and I am sure that he will

[quote]
The Elect are not Chosen by God, but the Elect choose God. That sounds nice, but it does not conform to Scripture

[BrianH]

Making it? Not really, though it is still something God cannot do for you.

I agree.



Following through on a decision? Yes. I consider that work.

So then your salvation is based on nothing BUT your own work. And since you have established that your salvation is based on your work and since God's standard is perfection, therefore sicne your work is not perfect, you are not saved.


Do you consider lip-service Christianity sufficient and sincere?

Nope.

Guess who the Bible says does the work IN us (Christians), Fig.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Nope.
-BH

(NT)

[BrianH]

Nope.

God's election CANNOT operate apart from his foreknowledge BY DEFINITION, R.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Nope.

God's election CANNOT operate apart from his foreknowledge BY DEFINITION, R.

-BH

.

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I agree.




So then your salvation is based on nothing BUT your own work.

Where did the "nothing BUT" come from? Your words undoubtedly. You set up a false dichotomy here.

God cannot save us w/o our work (participation and adherence to His condiditons), and we cannot be saved w/o His.

[BrianH]

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

Yes God does know better than we do. But the only experience that will get someone saved is their acceptance by faith of the grace of God in Christ because of the cross. The RESULT of that acceptance as known to God is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who then motivates and even causes us to do works that please God.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Yes God does know better than we do. But the only experience that will get someone saved is their acceptance by faith of the grace of God in Christ because of the cross. The RESULT of that acceptance as known to God is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who then motivates and even causes us to do works that please God.

-BH

.

So, if a Christian person disobeys the commandments, does that please God? What must a Christian person who has disobeyed the commandments do to once again please God?

[BrianH]

Please note the fact that I am providing straight, unequicocal answers to each question.


So, if a Christian person disobeys the commandments, does that please God?
Obviously not. Yet all Christians commit sins.


What must a Christian person who has disobeyed the commandments do to once again please God?

Repent. Seek God for forgivness. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead one away from sin.

-BH

.

[Richard]

Please note the fact that I am providing straight, unequicocal answers to each question.


Obviously not. Yet all Christians commit sins.



Repent. Seek God for forgivness. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead one away from sin.

-BH

.

So then Brian, you admit repentance is a ongoing and often necessary process. But not necessary for salvation, since once you have proclaimed your faith, sin would not in any way negate your elect status.

Just asking?

R.

[John T]

so then brian, you admit repentance is a ongoing and often necessary process. But not necessary for salvation, since once you have proclaimed your faith, sin would not in any way negate your elect status.

Just asking? R.

absolutely! n/t

[BrianH]

Where did you get the idea that I said or meant that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Show me the words I wrote that gave you that idea.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Where did the "nothing BUT" come from? Your words undoubtedly. You set up a false dichotomy here.


Well ...it is an inference. If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? What do you ever DO without deciding to do it? And BTW, that is no dichotomy at all, let alone a false dichotomy. (I HIGHLY recommend that you learn the meaning of terms BEFORE you try to use them in public.)


God cannot save us w/o our work (participation and adherence to His condiditons), and we cannot be saved w/o His.

So then according to you, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

I note with interest that you are trying to be very careful in your choice of words. While I think it is obvious that people must choose to receive God's grace and thus "participate" in some sense. But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they, works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Well ...it is an inference. If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? What do you ever DO without deciding to do it? And BTW, that is no dichotomy at all, let alone a false dichotomy. (I HIGHLY recommend that you learn the meaning of terms BEFORE you try to use them in public.)

Well your inference was wrong. I could infer that you believe salvation is nothing but arbitrary. Would that be correct in your mind?



So then according to you, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

God does not super-impose his will to force a person to heaven or hell. The choice is ours, and God provides a way according to our choice.



I note with interest that you are trying to be very careful in your choice of words. While I think it is obvious that people must choose to receive God's grace and thus "participate" in some sense. But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they, works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence.

-BH

.

Yes, God will not force a man into heaven.

[BrianH]

Well your inference was wrong. I could infer that you believe salvation is nothing but arbitrary. Would that be correct in your mind?


But precisely HOW is my inference wrong? If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? Are you perhaps trying to say that SOME decisions are a work and others are NOT?



God does not super-impose his will to force a person to heaven or hell. The choice is ours, and God provides a way according to our choice.


I have no problem with that. But it does not address the issue to which you are responding here. According to you, God cannot save us without our work. That means that, according to YOU, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?





Yes, God will not force a man into heaven.

Oh ...kaayyy ...But that does not answer my question. Please read it again and do your best to think about it, then actually ANSWER it, K? Here it is again: But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence

thank you

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.
... OR on God's work as we allow God to work with us, which I refer to as God's work rather than "human works" because God is working in us.


Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held.
Did you consider my perspective when you were referring to "human works" ?


Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based.
Yes, but who is doing the work ?

Us, only, or God, only, or a combination such as God working in us ?

[John T]

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

Fig

There are ABUNDANT proofs of what Brian said in the Bible; either of us can produce the texts proving that.

However, there are ZERO verses in Scripture to support your position.

[maklelan]

... OR on God's work as we allow God to work with us, which I refer to as God's work rather than "human works" because God is working in us.

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.


Did you consider my perspective when you were referring to "human works" ?

Yes, but who is doing the work ?

Us, only, or God, only, or a combination such as God working in us ?

It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.

[Richard]

Where did you get the idea that I said or meant that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Show me the words I wrote that gave you that idea.

-BH

.

Is not repentance a act of works? Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Repentance is works, and Baptism a Ordinance that take a act of works.

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Brian what say you? "Baptism is a work, so you say your not saved by works? Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...

Compare the restored Gospel as God has revealed it to Joseph Smith.

D&C 20: 37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.


So Brian, it's pretty clear, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins",

1). Repentance is essential
2). Baptism is required for the remission of sins.
3). Spiritual credit granted for good works. Or is it a work of faith, by
which one receives salvation?
4). Is it the man or woman who submits to being immersed?
Or is it God who forgives and regenerates through the blood of
Jesus and working of the Holy Spirit?

It seems to me one must do the work, or doing something willingly that bring one to repent with a broken heart, and contrite spirit, willingly one witnesses before the Church and God, they have repented of their sins, and take upon the name of Christ, to obey and serve to the end, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Biblical Scripture Brian.





Interesting indeed.
Richard.

[Richard]

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.



It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.

"and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church." D&C

[Bat-Man]

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.
If by "our" work you are referring to the work we do with God in us... I agree.

Our works are God's work when God is working in us.


It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.
I think it comes down to who you are thinking of when you say "our" works.

If you're referring to the works we do without God, then nothing we can do will save us, but if you're referring to the works we do with God, then you're talking about a whole other thing there.

With God we are God... because God is working within us.

[BrianH]

Is not repentance a act of works?

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?


Brian what say you? "Baptism is a work, so you say your not saved by works? Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith. It is the faith that saves, Richard, not the dunking in water. People go swimming every day and are not saved from their sins by it.


Compare the restored Gospel as God has revealed it to Joseph Smith.

D&C 20: 37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the...<snip>

Wait, wait wait ...first of all why should anyone care what Joseph Smith said? Secondly, what makes you think that your gospel is a "restoration" of anything? Can you show me ANY evidence that the apostolic church which you claim to have "restored" ever taught any of the distinguishing doctrines or performed any of the unique secret rituals of the LDS church? If you can, then we can talk about this restoration (preferably in another thread where you will not be chaning the subject). If you cannot, then your claim to a "restoration" is observably FALSE.

How about it?

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.



It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.


Interesting point---the idea that God works to save ALL men, therefore, if men are not saved, it is not because of the lack of God's work,but the lack of ours.

[BigJulie]

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?



Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith. It is the faith that saves, Richard, not the dunking in water. People go swimming every day and are not saved from their sins by it.



Wait, wait wait ...first of all why should anyone care what Joseph Smith said? Secondly, what makes you think that your gospel is a "restoration" of anything? Can you show me ANY evidence that the apostolic church which you claim to have "restored" ever taught any of the distinguishing doctrines or performed any of the unique secret rituals of the LDS church? If you can, then we can talk about this restoration (preferably in another thread where you will not be chaning the subject). If you cannot, then your claim to a "restoration" is observably FALSE.

How about it?

-BH

.

Brian, you are right...it is not the dunking in water that saves someone, rather baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and indicates a submission (literally) to the will of God. I am going to ***ume that you believe that submitting to God is required for salvation. So, in your experience, does submitting to God or repenting or changing your ways require no effort on your part---you said repentance is not work as it requires you to do nothing. Is that what you have found in your life---do you do nothing and therefore, you have repented?

[Bat-Man]

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?
Repentance is about more than NOT doing something.

Repentance involves turning from what is evil, or Satan, AND turning toward what is good, or God.

If you only stop doing what is evil, you haven't done all you can do.

[BrianH]

Repentance is about more than NOT doing something.

Repentance involves turning from what is evil, or Satan, AND turning toward what is good, or God.

If you only stop doing what is evil, you haven't done all you can do.

You are just equivocating.

Obviously repentence is the cessation of deliberate sinning. It is at best (for your point of view) a NEGATIVE act. The POSITIVE act (an actual work) that we are called to actually perform is to simply BELIEVE. That is why the scripture says "repent AND believe" (Mark 1:15 for example). Otherwise it would only have needed to say "repent".

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Brian, you are right...it is not the dunking in water that saves someone, rather baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and indicates a submission (literally) to the will of God.

I am glad to see you departing from normative LDS doctirne. Keep going. Your freedom in Christ is just on the horizon.


I am going to ***ume that you believe that submitting to God is required for salvation. So, in your experience, does submitting to God or repenting or changing your ways require no effort on your part---you said repentance is not work as it requires you to do nothing. Is that what you have found in your life---do you do nothing and therefore, you have repented?

It requires the effort that only God can empower. I can make the decision; it is God who empowers me to follow through.

thank you

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

I am glad to see you departing from normative LDS doctirne. Keep going. Your freedom in Christ is just on the horizon.



It requires the effort that only God can empower. I can make the decision; it is God who empowers me to follow through.

thank you

-BH

. Empowers YOU to follow through---this implies you are doing something. So, for the person who is baptized---is it because God picks up their body and puts them in the water? Or do they follow through with baptism because they believe in God and therefore act?

[BrianH]

Empowers YOU to follow through---this implies you are doing something.

Yes ...I am BELIEVEING him.

I believe in salvation by "works". Just read what Jesus said when someone asked him what works they must do (John 6:28-29)


So, for the person who is baptized---is it because God picks up their body and puts them in the water? Or do they follow through with baptism because they believe in God and therefore act?

Salvation for a person being baptized is ALREADY a done deal, BigJ. It is the FAITH that saves (Eph 2:8-9). As you have already made clear: Just getting dunked in the water does not save anyone. Baptism is the outward working of that which God has already worked IN us.

thank you

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

Yes ...I am BELIEVEING him.

I believe in salvation by "works". Just read what Jesus said when someone asked him what works they must do (John 6:28-29)



Salvation for a person being baptized is ALREADY a done deal, BigJ. It is the FAITH that saves (Eph 2:8-9). As you have already made clear: Just getting dunked in the water does not save anyone. Baptism is the outward working of that which God has already worked IN us.

thank you

-BH

. So, if I have you right....those who believe in God will act outwardly because of an inward conversion. I agree with this. Therefore our works do not save us, but our faith does and our faith is seen by our works. Therefore, we can know our faith by what we do. If one claims to have faith and then denies it in action, they are a liar. In otherwords, the person who claims they believe but then refuses baptism is a liar.

[Bat-Man]

Obviously repentence is the cessation of deliberate sinning.
Repentance refers to turning toward God, not just stopping somewhere along the path that leads to Satan.

A person is either going toward Satan, or is going toward God.

If you're walking toward Satan and stop walking, without turning toward God, you're still facing Satan until you turn around and start walking toward God from where you were.

[BrianH]

Repentance refers to turning toward God, not just stopping somewhere along the path that leads to Satan.

Repentance is turning FROM sin. BELIEF is turning to God.

"Repent AND believe", BM. Not just "repent".

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

Repentance is turning FROM sin. BELIEF is turning to God.

"Repent AND believe", BM. Not just "repent".

-BH

.
When you repent and believe you are turning from Satan and turning toward God and it is then up to you to believe what God tells you when you are turned towards Him.

I recommend that you follow-through with the whole process.

[Richard]

Repentance is turning FROM sin. BELIEF is turning to God.

"Repent AND believe", BM. Not just "repent".

-BH

.

Sorry Brian, but you're in denial of what Faith, Repentance and Baptism represent as a Ordinance to be done. “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Peter is being asked what is to be done, he replies, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ", why be Baptized? "for the remission of sins". One must commit to a action or work, (Baptized), in order to be forgiven. Why does one need to be forgiven? In order to receive the gift. What Gift? The Holy Ghost. Why is this necessary? To be saved in the Kingdom of God. What is the Kingdom of God? His kingdom or Church here on earth, and then receive all the ordinances that will elevate you to Eternal Life, life with God.

Your lesson for the day good buddy.

R. :)

[BrianH]

Sorry Brian, but you're in denial of what Faith, Repentance and Baptism represent as a Ordinance to be done

Yes you are indeed sorry.

The scripture says "repent AND believe". The Greek language here is emphatic.


"repent" (μετανοέω- "metanoeō") means: to change one's mind. It is in the imperative mood, meaning it is a command.

"believe" (πιστεύω "pisteuō") means: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

These are related but different. They are not the same thing. If they were the text would be needlessly redundant.

One can "repent" without believing. And one can "believe" without repenting. That is why we are exhorted in the Bible to "repent AND believe" ...just like I said.

No amount of hand waving, condescension, subject changing or bickkering will change these simple, self-evident facts.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

In otherwords, the person who claims they believe but then refuses baptism is a liar.

Do you believe?

-BH

.

[John T]

So, if I have you right....those who believe in God will act outwardly because of an inward conversion. I agree with this.The part that SEEMS to be missing is that while believers will do good works because it is God working through them to glorify himself; doing good deeds is NOT a manifestation of salvation.

That is because even Charles Manson can fake good deeds while in prison, and say "Look at what I did! See, I am a Christian." Furthermore, Scripture is abundantly clear that salvation is NOT of efforts or works, for that would cause pride, which is an anathema to God.


Therefore our works do not save us (1), but our faith does(2) and our faith is seen by our works. Phrase 1= Excellent; Phrase 2 = Excellent, Phrase 3= not true.

On other boards, I saw Mormons who wished to quantify faith by making this or that a standard, essentially saying "I have greater faith than her because I do this or that." Remember what Jesus said about the one having faith the size of a mustard seed. It is not the size of your faith that counts, rather, it is the size of the God in whom you entrust your faith that counts. There is an immense difference between the size of the Mormon god, and the God of Christianity.

So the question is this: "Do you place your faith in a god who does not exist, who "once was man, but is now exalted" or the "Only one God, completely holy holy, righteous and just, who shows unmerited grace (favor) to those who trust Him?"


(1)Therefore, we can know our faith by what we do. (2) If one claims to have faith and then denies it in action, they are a liar.(1) WORKS ARE NOT A THERMOMETER INDICATING ONE'S FAITH.

(2) You have to be clearer what you mean by the phrase "denies it in action". If you mean that any person who sins in some manner is a denier of one's faith, that is not true. Scripture tells us that we all are sinners, after conversion, we still sin, and our sinning will not cease until we are dead, or when Jesus returns. That is why John wrote in 1 John 19ff
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Chapter 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation [Defense Attorney) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Another good Scripture to remember is this, from Ephesians 3:20-21
Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen
Bob Hoekstra says this about the above p***age:
It begins with the most critical issue for living the Christian life, the ability of God: "Now to Him who is able." Natural religious thinking would set forth the ability of man as the most vital matter in developing a godly life. Such an approach would leave us striving vainly under the law, attempting to live up to God's perfect standards by our own inadequate resources. Praise be to God, there is a heavenly, effective option: relying upon God's ability.


Think of the immeasurable ability of the Lord. "Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You" (Jeremiah 32:17 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jer&c=32#17)). He created the entire universe. Certainly, by His power He is able to strengthen us. "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" (Jeremiah 32:27 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jer&c=32#27)). Our Lord rules over all of humanity. Surely, He is able to manage our lives. Actually, our God is "able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think." Everything we could ask concerning His will, He is able to do far beyond that. Whatever we might contemplate but hesitate to ask, He is able to surp*** that.
That is why salvation is all by grace, and ZERO by works. If it were by works, we would trust unreliable sinners, ourselves to be our own redeemer. Gloriously, however, it is all of, by and through God that salvation comes.

Therefore it is neither the amount of either your faith, nor of your works that count. Instead, it is the size of the God in whom you rest your faith that counts.



In other words, the person who claims they believe but then refuses baptism is a liar.That is a hypothetical that is extremely dubious possibilities. That is because the believer willingly wants to enter into baptism as an act of obedience, (not conversion). But there are Christianity-hostile places whereby the act of baptism is tantamount to taking a contract out on your life, and the death of a believer, due to a public baptism has life and death ramifications for the immediate family including the spouse and children.

I do not find any warrant in Scripture for such an ***umption.

[Father_JD]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

Nope. According to scripture, salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

Faith is NOT "human works".

Btw...salvation is of GOD ALONE.

[BrianH]

Turning FROM sin is repentance.
Turning TO God is belief.

It makes no sense to repent without turning to God and you cannot turn to God without repenting.

The scripture says "repent AND believe".

-BH

.

[Father_JD]

Interesting point---the idea that God works to save ALL men, therefore, if men are not saved, it is not because of the lack of God's work,but the lack of ours.

Too bad the idea that "God works to save ALL men" is not Biblical, but is based on an erroneous understanding of one given text, ignorant of what a synedoche is. :eek:

[John T]

Too bad the idea that "God works to save ALL men" is not Biblical, but is based on an erroneous understanding of one given text, ignorant of what a synedoche is. :eek:

Do you mean "synecdoche"?

[Father_JD]

Do you mean "synecdoche"?

Sure did. Pardon the typo. :D

[John T]

Sure did. Pardon the typo. :D

I consider having a good vocabulary as a good thing; obviously you do as well. I just wanted to be sure that you did not slip in a word that I did not know. :D

Hey have you noticed that no Mormon poster has responded in one week on this thread?

Please beware of a new mopologist tactic, for they tried it twice, once was successful. Someone will start a thread about a Christian, and all the rest of them will gang up on the subject, post nasty stuff in order to push the Christian's ****ons, and then have the Christian banned because he got angry, and fought back. They started threads about Paul, and on me. One thread Richard started, and the other SbT started. I suspect that both posters are Richard, back to doing his old, bad habits that got him banned forever at Concerned Christians. and suspended several times at CARM.

The truly nasty thing about the threads on people is that it demonstrates the paucity of evidence on the part of the Mormons, and it has ZERO to do with Mormonism.

Whenever that happens, I urge Christians to do two things:
1) Complain to Jull, the Administrator. They barrage her over the things that we do to hurt their feelings.

2) Call the Mopologists out on their continuious and dispicable slandering. I did it in bold red, three point Ariel.

As I see it, for some unknown reason, the Mormons are free to post lies and be hateful. However let a PhD, like Paul get riled up, and state all sorts of things about MORMONISM in general, and not any particular PERSON, he gets in trouble, and banned. (Perhaps I will also get banned for merely expressing my opinion.)

Then there is always the third option: dusting off our collective sandals at once. But hey, I am not a rabble rouser! :rolleyes:

[Father_JD]

Thanks, John T.

In a nutshell:

Many of the LDS on this board fight dirty and when called upon it, complain they're being "persecuted".

Go figure.

[alanmolstad]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based.


They asked Jesus a question like this too.

Lets readJohn 6:28- "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"


So here is the same question we are dealing with on this topic, basically, "What are the works that we must do for salvation?"

Now lets look at the answer Jesus gave.
John 6:29 - "Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."




So that is the answer.
The answer is that there is only one 'work" that is required by all people for salvation....that work is to have faith in Jesus.

[True Believer]

In order for us to have faith in Jesus we must do good works. James talks about it in James chapter 2.
James 2:17(KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Also in James 2:26(KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[RealFakeHair]

In order for us to have faith in Jesus we must do good works. James talks about it in James chapter 2.
James 2:17(KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Also in James 2:26(KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

As the laziest person on the face of the Earth, how much work must I do? Is it like one, two or three good works, or more?
Give me the mininum please?

[alanmolstad]

In order for us to have faith in Jesus we must do good works.

The works that i have in my life testify to the realness of my salvation.....the works are to be seen as a means to show what is in my heart.

But the works themselves do not add squat to my actual salvation...
Works do not save me,nor keep me saved.....

Works show that I am saved.....



What is this like?

it's like......the "sound" of my car tells you that the motor is running.
The motor running is the important part.

The running motor is the thing that makes the car go, not the sound.

The sound is not the important thing, rather it tells you the current state of the important thing (the motor).....

In other words, the lack of sound tells you that the motor is not running...
Just as a lack of works tells you that the important part "faith in Jesus" is dead.

[True Believer]

In order to have faith in Jesus we must do good works. James says so in James chapter 2.

James 2:17 (KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[RealFakeHair]

In order to have faith in Jesus we must do good works. James says so in James chapter 2.

James 2:17 (KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I didn't know they still made vinyl records any longer?

[James Banta]

The works that i have in my life testify to the realness of my salvation.....the works are to be seen as a means to show what is in my heart.

But the works themselves do not add squat to my actual salvation...
Works do not save me,nor keep me saved.....

Works show that I am saved.....

That is the message we see in James 2

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The Bible seems to agree with you Alan.. Not with the LDS.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I didn't know they still made vinyl records any longer?
The whole world has not yet switched over.....

[alanmolstad]

The Bible seems to agree with you Alan.. Not with the LDS.. IHS jim

Thanks....

now may I suggest you glance at - http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showthread.php?768-Is-Man-born-spiritually-dead&p=142257#post142257

and see there what we may as the conversation goes on

[True Believer]

There is no minimum.

[alanmolstad]

As the laziest person on the face of the Earth, how much work must I do? Is it like one, two or three good works, or more?
Give me the mininum please?,,,just the one work.......only the one....

to believe.....just have faith...and you have worked the one work asked

[RealFakeHair]

,,,just the one work.......only the one....

to believe.....just have faith...and you have worked the one work asked

wow, i am exhausted!

[True Believer]

So alanmolstad you believe after you do that one work all the other works come because you believe?

[alanmolstad]

So alanmolstad you believe after you do that one work all the other works come because you believe?
I believe what the words of Jesus teach us...

They asked jesus what 'works' a person should do?....and Jesus answered and said that "thee work of God" was to believe in the Son.

"Thee work"....the lone work,,,,the only so-called "work" is to have faith in Christ.

For man is saved by Grace THOUGH faith...


Now as to your question-
The works that I do now are the result of my faith, and are used by God as a testimony of my changed heart.
The works are to be seen....the works that i do are the effect of my faith.

You cant see my heart....there is no way to know if Im saved or lost just by reading my name or seeing a photo of me.
But an accounting of my works do show you that the claim i make to be "saved" is supported by the evidence....

[RealFakeHair]

So alanmolstad you believe after you do that one work all the other works come because you believe?

Which came first the Easter egg or the Easter bunny?
TB you are close, very close, any and all works come from the heart, out of love, but how do we measure love?
The fact is we can't, and God doesn't, why? Because of the Cross, and we can't measure the Grace His Son paid with His Blood.

[alanmolstad]

so on a forum such as this how do works show us the person's heart?

Well if i were to claim to be a christian, yet you saw me always being banned for being rude to guests, always being a potty mouth...always being nasty and rude, then you will look at such "works' and think to yourself...

"His Christian faith is dead and buried underneath layers of bad behavior"



But if Im always nice to talk to, never am a potty mouth, am always watching for troublemakers, and try to set a good example, then that 'work' is also telling you about the support I have in my life for being truly a "Christ-like" person.....

[True Believer]

so you believe good works show you are a christain?

[James Banta]

so you believe good works show you are a christain?

isn't that what James teaches? James 2:18.. IHS jim

[True Believer]

isn't that what James teaches? James 2:18.. IHS jim

What about people who are not christians but still do good works?

[True Believer]

Good works just doesn't come after you are a christian.

[alanmolstad]

What about people who are not christians but still do good works?good for them....

Its great that people do good works...
Its never going to clean your soul of the stain of even the smallest of sins, but it still is good.

No lost person ever got even a small sin forgiven by doing a 'good work".....

But there are layers of both punishment and rewards....and so even if a person is totally lost and never going to give up their Mormon faith and is going to hell, i would still suggest that it is good for them to produce good works......

Good works are nice.....


Thats the difference between a Christian's good works, (that are blessed) and the works of the lost.

The works of the lost are mute as far as telling us about the one path to salvation.

But the works of a christian are the hand of God in our lives....and are blessed by god.

[True Believer]

good for them....

Its great that people do good works...
Its never going to clean your soul of the stain of even the smallest of sins, but it still is good.

No lost person ever got even a small sin forgiven by doing a 'good work".....

But there are layers of both punishment and rewards....and so even if a person is totally lost and never going to give up their Mormon faith and is going to hell, i would still suggest that it is good for them to produce good works......

Good works are nice.....


Thats the difference between a Christian's good works, (that are blessed) and the works of the lost.

The works of the lost are mute as far as telling us about the one path to salvation.

But the works of a christian are the hand of God in our lives....and are blessed by god.

Im not saying you are saved by good works. Grace saves you but you need to have faith. To have faith you need to do the requirements God has commanded us to do. One of those requirements is good works. If you don't have good works you don't have complete faith. Another question.... If someone who has never heard about God but does good works and who is a nice person (and if God doesn't bless the good works of those who are not chistrians as you said) does that person go to heaven or hell since he never believed or had faith?

[alanmolstad]

If someone who has never heard about God but does good works and who is a nice person (and if God doesn't bless the good works of those who are not Christians as you said) does that person go to heaven or hell since he never believed or had faith?The late Dr. Walter Martin put it this way; "If they go [to hell], it is because they turned away from the 'lesser light' that would have led them to the Greater Light."

works are a moot point as far as earing your salvation goes..
Works dont count like that....
Works dont add up to getting your sins forgiven.


so once again, they asked Jesus straight out what 'works" were needed?
and jesus said that there is only ONE work of God that is needed, and that is to have faith in his Son.

This is just how the thief on the cross was saved and how i was saved, and how we all are saved.
The Thief put his faith in Jesus, and was saved...case-closed.

No church attendance needed?...nope
No going door to door needed?.....nope
No giving money to the church or going to church on this day over that day?...nope

Just faith......You believe in Jesus and you are saved.


'are" saved...not "might be" saved......you ARE SAVED!

[James Banta]

Im not saying you are saved by good works. Grace saves you but you need to have faith. To have faith you need to do the requirements God has commanded us to do. One of those requirements is good works. If you don't have good works you don't have complete faith. Another question.... If someone who has never heard about God but does good works and who is a nice person (and if God doesn't bless the good works of those who are not chistrians as you said) does that person go to heaven or hell since he never believed or had faith?

Stop it, just stop it.. you can't come in here and deny the word of god even if you do believe that Jesus was a liar and the Bible is flawed.. Faith come by hearing the word of God nit through works. You can't show me one p***age of true scripture that teaches faith come in that way while I can show you scripture that bluntly teaches that Faith come by hearing, hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now admit that you teach nonbiblical teachings or find even one p***age that teaches that faith comes by "do(ing) the requirements God has commanded us to do).. You can keep your man invented doctrines. Here it requires clear Biblical teachings to make a point.. What you want to believe makes no difference at all, only what God has revealed in His word really counts.. So either show some Biblical authority for your teaching or tell us that what you are saying here is ONLY your private doctrines.. IHS jim

[True Believer]

Faith come by hearing the word of God nit through works.
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.[/B]

I agree partly. Faith comes by hearing the word, else why would I bother with being obedient to Christ. Yet when I show obedience to Christ's gospel I see the fruits of that obedience which in turn causes my faith to grow, as a result of my faith growing my obedience grows, and so on and so on.

[alanmolstad]

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.[/B]

I agree partly. Faith comes by hearing the word, else why would I bother with being obedient to Christ. Yet when I show obedience to Christ's gospel I see the fruits of that obedience which in turn causes my faith to grow, as a result of my faith growing my obedience grows, and so on and so on.

Your faith can grow stronger...but you don't get more saved...LOL

You are always as saved as you ever are...

[alanmolstad]

You don't say that because you did more works today that you are more saved today...

[TrueBlue?]

You don't say that because you did more works today that you are more saved today...

It's not about being more saved today than yesterday. I think what TB is trying to say is that faith grows because of works, and when faith grows then greater works we are able to do.


Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I believe that is what TB is alluding to. Correct if me if I am wrong TB.

[alanmolstad]

Works come because of faith...
This is why the Bible warns us over and over not to judge ourselves by our works...

This also is why we must be sa ed by grace though faith...and are NOT saved by grace though works.

Works proceed out of the faith found in your heart...

Thus we are saved that we live to produce good works...

[TrueBlue?]

Works come because of faith... My desire to do good works is a result of faith in Christ, but the works do not just flow through me? I am still free to choose to obey. My desire to follow Christ is conflicted with desire to do evil(temptation), I must choose to obey Christ, else my faith does little for me.


This is why the Bible warns us over and over not to judge ourselves by our works...

CFR please.


This also is why we must be sa ed by grace though faith...and are NOT saved by grace though works.

CFR please

[True Believer]

My desire to do good works is a result of faith in Christ, but the works do not just flow through me? I am still free to choose to obey. My desire to follow Christ is conflicted with desire to do evil(temptation), I must choose to obey Christ, else my faith does little for me.



Yes, that is what I have been trying to say to alan. After you have faith works just don't randomly start coming to you. You always have free will to do good works or to not do them. If you don't do them, if that is your choice then you have little faith.

That is exactly what James chapter 2 teaches us. James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


James 2:22 (KJV)
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[TrueBlue?]

Yes, that is what I have been trying to say to alan. After you have faith works just don't randomly start coming to you. You always have free will to do good works or to not do them. If you don't do them, if that is your choice then you have little faith.

That is exactly what James chapter 2 teaches us. James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


James 2:22 (KJV)
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Couldn't have said it better myself!:)

[Billyray]

My desire to do good works is a result of faith in Christ, but the works do not just flow through me? I am still free to choose to obey. My desire to follow Christ is conflicted with desire to do evil(temptation), I must choose to obey Christ, else my faith does little for me.

But what if you don't do all of the things that are required for exaltation. Will you still be exalted?

[alanmolstad]

Ummm..... we are saved by GRACE not faith.......


Why am I the only one that catches that verse? Lol

[TrueBlue?]

But what if you don't do all of the things that are required for exaltation. Will you still be exalted?

After all I can do. Who is the judge of that? God.

By the way what does that have to do with what the scriptures state?

[TrueBlue?]

Ummm..... we are saved by GRACE not faith.......


Why am I the only one that catches that verse? Lol

I would have no disagreement with that statement. I could have 100% perfect faith and 100% perfect works, but without the grace of Christ I will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

[Billyray]

After all I can do. Who is the judge of that? God.

By the way what does that have to do with what the scriptures state?

Mormonism teaches that you are required to do a checklist of things in order to be exalted. This is a works based salvation.

[True Believer]

True Blue and I are trying to explain to you how faith and good works are equal. How you can't have one or the other you must have both. We are not saying works alone or faith alone saves you.

[Billyray]

True Blue and I are trying to explain to you how faith and good works are equal. How you can't have one or the other you must have both. We are not saying works alone or faith alone saves you.

Don't you have faith before you have works?

[Billyray]

True Blue and I are trying to explain to you how faith and good works are equal. How you can't have one or the other you must have both. We are not saying works alone or faith alone saves you.
But works do not contribute for salvation YET mormonism teaches that works are required for exhalation. This is a contradiction.

[True Believer]

Don't you have faith before you have works?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are not equal.

[TrueBlue?]

Mormonism teaches that you are required to do a checklist of things in order to be exalted. This is a works based salvation.


Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Billy, do you consider the scripture above works based?

[Billyray]

Billy, do you consider the scripture above works based?

Salvation is not works based. Mormonism teaches a works based salvation/exaltation.

[Billyray]

Billy, do you consider the scripture above works based?
Here is the verse that you quoted in context.


Acts 5
27*The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest.
28*“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29*Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
30*The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31*God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
32*We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Why did you quote this section of scripture because it is not speaking about salvation?

Did you even bother looking at the context of the surrounding verses before you quoted it?

[Billyray]

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are not equal.

Equal for what exactly?

[TrueBlue?]

Here is the verse that you quoted in context.

Why did you quote this section of scripture because it is not speaking about salvation?

Did you even bother looking at the context of the surrounding verses before you quoted it?


Acts 5
27*The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest.
28*“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29*Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
30*The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31*God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
32*We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

I don't see how the context changes anything. In fact it helps make my point. We must obey God, who gives His Holy Spirit to those that obey Him.

So is this a works based scripture?

[TrueBlue?]

Equal for what exactly?

Equally necessary for Christ's grace.

Faith and works, not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

I don't see how the context changes anything. In fact it helps make my point. We must obey God, who "has given to those who obey him.

So is this a works based scripture.

This section of scripture is not speaking about salvation yet you quoted it in our discussion about salvation.

Remember that Christians believe in obeying Christ and in doing good works but salvation is not based on works. In Mormonism salvation/exaltation is based on works. That is one major distinction between us.

[Billyray]

Equally necessary for Christ's grace.

Why do you believe that you earn grace and earn slvation by doing works when the NT is clear that our works do not contribute for salvation?

[TrueBlue?]

Why do you believe that you earn grace and earn slvation by doing works when the NT is clear that our works do not contribute for salvation?

CFR on the scripture that states our works do not "contribute" for salvation.

Who said anything about earning, He gives His grace to those who love Him.

[Billyray]

CFR on the scripture that states our works do not "contribute" for salvation.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

[TrueBlue?]

This section of scripture is not speaking about salvation yet you quoted it in our discussion about salvation.

If it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us then according to this verse Acts 5:32, what is it one must do to receive the Holy Spirit?


Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



Remember that Christians believe in obeying Christ and in doing good works but salvation is not based on works. In Mormonism salvation/exaltation is based on works. That is one major distinction between us.

That is the difference between you and the Bible.

[Billyray]

If it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us then according to this verse Acts 5:32, what is it one must do to receive the Holy Spirit?

That is the difference between you and the Bible.
If you have to do works in order to recieve the Holy Spirit then this should be a consistent teaching throughout the NT but it is not. And this goes against many NT verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Below in Acts 10 those who heard the words of Peter received the Holy Spirit without doing any works and they had not even been baptized at this point.

Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

[TrueBlue?]

If you have to do works in order to recieve the Holy Spirit then this should be a consistent teaching throughout the NT but it is not. And this goes against many NT verses that clearly teach that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. Below in Acts 10 those who heard the words of Peter received the Holy Spirit without doing any works and they had not even been baptized at this point.

Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

You are right. Teachings must be consistent and harnomize in the Bible else the Bible becomes untrustworthy. So when we have a scripture that says that the Holy Spirit is given to them who obey

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Then you offer up scripture that make it appear that those people who heard Peter and had received the Holy Spirit were heathens who knew nothing of God and obeyed none of His commandments who were hearing of God for the first time . One has to stop and think, why the contradiction? Why does Peter say that the Holy Ghost is given to those that obey, yet here we have people who don’t even know God much less obey Him receiving the gift of the Spirit. Not just a ***** in the heart, nor a still small voice, but full on, very visual reception of the Holy Spirit.

Peter was preaching to whom? Cornelius and his household. What does Acts 10:2 say about this man and his household.

Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

So I see that Cornelius was a good man who, with his household, already was obedient to God, and showing much charity to the poor. Now we see that the scriptures do harmonize.

But also notice that Cornelius and his household was not the only ones there, but brethren from Joppa had accompanied Peter (Acts 10:23) who it is safe to say were members because they were called brethren. Notice how it was only the Gentiles (Cornelius and his household) that received the Spirit, and in a very visual way also? Because, new doctrine was being revealed and acted upon, and those of the circumcision, (brethren from Joppa) were able to see with their own eyes and witness that the gospel was to go unto the Gentiles as well as those of the circumcision.

Below in Acts 10 those who heard the words of Peter received the Holy Spirit without doing any works and they had not even been baptized at this point.
The order of obedience does not matter.

[TrueBlue?]

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I agree. We are not saved by works, but by grace. This verse in no way says our works do not contribute.


Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

How is our faith perfected? See above verse.

[James Banta]

I agree. We are not saved by works, but by grace. This verse in no way says our works do not contribute.



How is our faith perfected? See above verse.

You must not have read verse 9. It clearly states that salvation is NOT BY WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.. Works therefore contribute nothing to salvation it is given 100% by the grace of God through faith in Jesus. Again it is not of works.. Surely you can see that right there in the p***age.. IHS jim

[TrueBlue?]

You must not have read verse 9. It clearly states that salvation is NOT BY WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.. Works therefore contribute nothing to salvation it is given 100% by the grace of God through faith in Jesus. Again it is not of works.. Surely you can see that right there in the p***age.. IHS jim

James, I don't see it in that verse that works do not contribute to make my faith complete. Clearly you are not reading my posts, because I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works. I am not saved by faith either. I am saved by grace given to me by Christ.

I could have perfect faith and perfect works, but neither will save me, it Christ who saves. It is His grace He gives us. His free gift to all. He stands at the door knocking. But before I open it, I must have faith that it is Him, when I have faith, I must act on that faith and actually open the door. I can stand there all day shouting through the door my professed love and belief. but my faith and belief will not open the door. He will not break it down either. There is no latch on the other side of it so yelling I believe come on in will not open the door. You must act on your faith and make the decision to open the door.

Faith and works. Not by faith alone.

[Billyray]

was a good man who, with his household, already was obedient to God, and showing much charity to the poor.

How could they be completely obedient to God when they didn't know what God's commandments were?

[Billyray]

The order of obedience does not matter.
So you can receive the Holy Spirit before you are baptized or know what God's commandments are?

[Billyray]

I agree. We are not saved by works, but by grace. This verse in no way says our works do not contribute.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Sure it says that works do not contribute. What do you think not of works means?

[Billyray]

I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works

So you can be exalted without doing all of the required works for exaltation?

[TrueBlue?]

How could they be completely obedient to God when they didn't know what God's commandments were?

Your gonna have to take that up with the Bible, the Bible states he was devout to God.

Definition of DEVOUT
1
: devoted to religion or to religious duties or exercises
2
: expressing devotion or piety <a devout at***ude>
3
a : devoted to a pursuit, belief, or mode of behavior : serious, earnest

[Billyray]

Your gonna have to take that up with the Bible, the Bible states he was devout to God.

Tell me what they knew about God and his commandments?

[TrueBlue?]

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Sure it says that works do not contribute. What do you think not of works means?

No, Billy, it does not say of works, but by works. Huge difference. Why do you think Paul that it was us who had work out our own salvation?


Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


Why do you keep trying to change what the Bible states?

[TrueBlue?]

Tell me what they knew about God and his commandments?

The Bible doesn't give minute details of the mans life, but devout enough that God chose him, a devout man to God, to appear unto him and make him the sign that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles.

[TrueBlue?]

So you can receive the Holy Spirit before you are baptized or know what God's commandments are?

If you continue in this manner of discussion then I will not continue to carry this discussion on with you. Stop with the deceptive tactics. If Cornelius was devout to God, then he knew the commandments of God.

Again no specific order of obedience necessary.

Anyone can receive a witness from the Holy Ghost, but having the Holy Ghost as an constant companion is another thing.

[James Banta]

If you continue in this manner of discussion then I will not continue to carry this discussion on with you. Stop with the deceptive tactics. If Cornelius was devout to God, then he knew the commandments of God.

Again no specific order of obedience necessary.

Anyone can receive a witness from the Holy Ghost, but having the Holy Ghost as an constant companion is another thing.

A person can respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit but if they receive the Holy Spirit the same as Peter had at Pentecost there is no doubt that they have the Spirit of God in them just as much as any other believer. Do you see what the p***age teaches lets look:

Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Just saying they had a witness from the Holy Ghost, but didn't have the Holy Ghost as an constant companion, is another denial of the scripture.. When is it you will start to believe God instead of always trying to put your words in His mouth? IHS jim

[Billyray]

No, Billy, it does not say of works, but by works. Huge difference.

Huge difference? Really? Let's use the KJV which is your official scripture

Ephesians 2:8-9
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The KJV says "not of works" weren't you aware of that? I guess not. Now tell me why you think that works contribute for salvation when Paul clearly says that it is not of works?

[Billyray]

Why do you keep trying to change what the Bible states?
Where in that verse does it say work FOR your salvation?

Notice it say work OUT your salvation NOT work FOR salvation.

[Billyray]

The Bible doesn't give minute details of the mans life, but devout enough that God chose him, a devout man to God, to appear unto him and make him the sign that the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles.
And prior to Peter coming to them what knowledge did they have about Jesus and what his commandments were?

[Billyray]

If you continue in this manner of discussion then I will not continue to carry this discussion on with you. Stop with the deceptive tactics.
Because you know that it is ridiculous to ***ume that they had any real knowledge about who Jesus really was and His commandments.

I see so now you are trying to deny what the scripture says which is that they received the Holy Spirit. It looks like you are the one trying to deny scripture.

[Billyray]

Again no specific order of obedience necessary.

Is that really what Mormonism teaches? That a person can receive the Holy Spirit prior to doing works including baptism? I never taught this false concept when I was an LDS missionary.

[Billyray]

. . .I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works. I am not saved by faith either. I am saved by grace given to me by Christ. . .
So what is required for exaltation if it is not by faith or works?

[TrueBlue?]

Where in that verse does it say work FOR your salvation?

Notice it say work OUT your salvation NOT work FOR salvation.

Again being deceptive. Before I respond again post were I said "work for salvation" rather than work out your salvation. If you can't I expect your apology will be forth coming.

[TrueBlue?]

Is that really what Mormonism teaches? That a person can receive the Holy Spirit prior to doing works including baptism? I never taught this false concept when I was an LDS missionary.

I think in special cases when God chooses He can give them the Holy Spirit before baptism. LDS do baptism as a general rule, but don't rule out the exceptions which is clearly recorded in the Bible on special occasions, such as the allowance of the Gospel to be delivered to Gentiles.

[TrueBlue?]

Because you know that it is ridiculous to ***ume that they had any real knowledge about who Jesus really was and His commandments.

I see so now you are trying to deny what the scripture says which is that they received the Holy Spirit. It looks like you are the one trying to deny scripture.


I did not deny they received the Holy Spirit, my whole argument is based on them receiving the Holy Spirit, and why. Because Cornelius followed the laws of God, the true God as far as he had been taught. Are you saying that no body was able to be devout to God prior to Christ? This is just getting silly now.

[TrueBlue?]

Huge difference? Really? Let's use the KJV which is your official scripture

Ephesians 2:8-9
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The KJV says "not of works" weren't you aware of that? I guess not. Now tell me why you think that works contribute for salvation when Paul clearly says that it is not of works?

Because in conjunction with verse 8 he is pointing out that it is not us who saves us but Christ. Just because we follow His commandments we are not to get a big head and think that somehow we are going to get into Heaven without Christ. That we cannot grant ourselves entry into Heaven like some of the faith alone here grant themselves into Heaven. Just like the Jews thought they did not need Christ because they were descendents of Abraham, we are not to depend on man, but rely on God.

[Billyray]

Again being deceptive. Before I respond again post were I said "work for salvation" rather than work out your salvation. If you can't I expect your apology will be forth coming.

The verse that you posted does not say work FOR your salvation. It says work out your salvation and this is speaking to those who are already saved. Works do not contribute FOR salvation and you have not proven otherwise thus far nor will you ever because that Bible teaches that works do not contribute for salvation.

You know full well that mormons work for salvation/exaltation. It seems like you are trying to deny this fact.

[Billyray]

I think in special cases when God chooses He can give them the Holy Spirit before baptism. LDS do baptism as a general rule, but don't rule out the exceptions which is clearly recorded in the Bible on special occasions, such as the allowance of the Gospel to be delivered to Gentiles.
Nowhere in Mormonism does it teach that a person can receive the Holy Spirit PRIOR to doing works such as baptism and the model clearly laid out in mormonism that baptism precedes the reception of the Holy Spirit.

[Billyray]

Because Cornelius followed the laws of God, the true God as far as he had been taught. Are you saying that no body was able to be devout to God prior to Christ? This is just getting silly now.
The one who is being silly is you for thinking that Cornelius etc knew about the gospel of Christ and followed that gospel.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

[Billyray]

Because in conjunction with verse 8 he is pointing out that it is not us who saves us but Christ. Just because we follow His commandments we are not to get a big head and think that somehow we are going to get into Heaven without Christ. That we cannot grant ourselves entry into Heaven like some of the faith alone here grant themselves into Heaven. Just like the Jews thought they did not need Christ because they were descendents of Abraham, we are not to depend on man, but rely on God.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9*Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You are not being honest here Trueblue. It says clearly that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. Verse 8 confirms the same thing so I am not sure why you appealed to it. You keep wanting to tell me that salvation/exaltation is of works in addition to faith and that is a false gospel and that is one of the reasons that Christians don't believe Mormons are Christian.

[Billyray]

Clearly you are not reading my posts, because I have stated that I agree that I am not saved by works. I am not saved by faith either. I am saved by grace given to me by Christ.
Moroni 10:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

When is God grace sufficient for you according to Moroni 10:32?

[TrueBlue?]

The one who is being silly is you for thinking that Cornelius etc knew about the gospel of Christ and followed that gospel.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

I did not say He knew the Gospel of Christ, else Peter would not have preached to him. He was a devout man of God. If you are going to say that there was not a single person who lived from Adam to Christ who was devout to God then this is silly. Now that you have put words in my mouth and tried to change the meaning of what I am saying we are done with this. You can make yourself look foolish with someone else. Do you really think that people who read these posts are going to believe what you put and think I was talking about the Gospel of Christ? Do you really think that not a single person living prior to Christ could not be devout to God and obedient? Done with the games, Billy. I'm not responding to your posts in this thread anymore.

[TrueBlue?]

The one who is being silly is you for thinking that Cornelius etc knew about the gospel of Christ and followed that gospel.

Romans 10
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

never mind repost

[Billyray]

I did not say He knew the Gospel of Christ, else Peter would not have preached to him. He was a devout man of God. If you are going to say that there was not a single person who lived from Adam to Christ who was devout to God then this is silly. Now that you have put words in my mouth and tried to change the meaning of what I am saying we are done with this. You can make yourself look foolish with someone else. Do you really think that people who read these posts are going to believe what you put and think I was talking about the Gospel of Christ? Do you really think that not a single person living prior to Christ could not be devout to God and obedient? Done with the games, Billy. I'm not responding to your posts in this thread anymore.
You are the one who is playing games. You likely have realized that your argument has run out of steam and that you can't defend your position. Bottom line is that we don't work to receive salvation, grace, or the Holy Spirit.

[alanmolstad]

.....This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based..
They once asked Jesus what must we do to work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said that if we believe in him, we have done "the" work of God.
So what Jesus is saying is that yes, there is a work that we must do, (if you can call it a work that is.) and that single and all important work is to have faith.

Thus we dont have to worry about all the things we might want to 'do" or "perform" in order to earn our salvation or all the things we might be tempted to think help "maintain" our salvation.

All we are asked to do is to have faith in Jesus who has already done all the things we needed....have faith in him....for we are saved only by Grace though FAITH, and not by works!

[Apologette]

No! that merely begs the question, because if it is God’s sovereign will for all to be saved, Then why is it, everybody is not saved?
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 6 says that only those who the Father calls come to Christ.

[alanmolstad]

John 6 says that only those who the Father calls come to Christ.

"only"?

you might want to check the text on that.....

[James Banta]

"only"?

you might want to check the text on that.....

Is it not the Father's will that all men come to Jesus and be receive life? Still He knows those that will respond to Him as He knows those that will refuse.. Since He knows those that will respond He calls ALL those who will come to the Son.. This is an A=B and B=C so A=C kind of response.. IHS jim