Does obedience to the commandments carry any eternal consequences?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.

Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

So here is my final question.

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

[GraftedIn73]

After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.


Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

So here is my final question.

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

GI73

[PostTribber]

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation? My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

"If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

as a believer, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

this can only be done by 'obedience'. disobedience to God's commandments is sin, "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
(James 1:15)

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

GI73

Thanks GraftenIn

Your answers make sense to me. I believe that Repentance is a daily walk, and is never done. I think we are in agreement on that.

I also agree that many will not have the opportunity for baptism in mortality. LDS believe that this ordinance cannot be skipped, for anyone. We believe that the work of converting souls continues after this life, in the world of spirits. And those who would have accepted this ordinance and their covenants with God but who did not have the opportunity in this life, will be able to receive those things in the world of Spirits.

Thanks for your perspective.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16)

"If ye love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

as a believer, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10)

this can only be done by 'obedience'. disobedience to God's commandments is sin, "and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
(James 1:15)

Thanks, PT.

I too believe that disobedience to God's commandments cons***utes sin. That is why we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.

[PostTribber]

we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.

"Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15)

simple enough. no need for all these 'Jimmy-come-lately's. :rolleyes:

[Russ]

Thanks, PT.

I too believe that disobedience to God's commandments cons***utes sin. That is why we believe that a person cannot be saved IN his sins. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved FROM our sins, but that is contingent upon faith in the Lord and Repentance--both of which are ongoing continual exercises.

What are the things a person must do to be saved in the LDS religion.

Just off the top of my head:


Be baptized Mormon by another Mormon with authority to do so
Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by another Mormon with authority to do so.
***he 10% of one's gross income
Receive the LDS endowment (an initiatory rite performed in LDS temples
Be married to another Mormon in an LDS temple
Participate in "callings" (Relief Society, ward cl***es, singles wards, etc.)
Support the leadership of the LDS church
Make covenants and keep them
Repent
Have faith
Gain and maintain a testimony that the LDS church is true and the Book of Mormon is from God



What else must a person do to be saved?

[Father_JD]

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian?

Yes, resulting in abundance or lack of heavenly rewards.


Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

No, because salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.

[BigJulie]

Yes, resulting in abundance or lack of heavenly rewards.



No, because salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS.


Finally, something we can agree on:)

Mormons believe that through the atonement of Christ, all men are saved by overcoming death as all will die and meet the God who created him. Without this resurrection, all of us would be dead permantly, without any hope of life after death.

Thus, this type of salvation is given to all me through the grace of God. As is stated scripturally:

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But, there are differences in the rewards or the abundance in which we received based on obedience. Mormons call this reward "degrees of glory." In other words, when we are obedient, the more we learn to be like God and the more like him we are, the more of his glory we experience. In this way, someone who believes in God, but is disobedient will not experience as much of his glory.

An example of this can be seen when raising children. As parents, you want to give them everything, but you find you can only give them as much as they are willing to accept. A disobedient child rejects the love of their parents and thus a measure of their parents gifts. It is the same with God the Father. He desires all of us to experience his full glory, but he can only give as much as we accept through obedience.

[Father_JD]

No, "resurrection" does NOT = salvation.

This is typical Mormon equivocation/re-definition of the term.

[BigJulie]

No, "resurrection" does NOT = salvation.

This is typical Mormon equivocation/re-definition of the term.

And only someone who does not understand resurrection is a form of salvation would make such a statement as if Christ's overcoming death is not really anything to be grateful for and your life has not really been saved.

[Father_JD]

And only someone who does not understand resurrection is a form of salvation would make such a statement as if Christ's overcoming is not really anything to be grateful for and your life has not really been saved.

Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment. :eek:

You'd rather believe JS and NOT GOD VIA SCRIPTURE. Tsk. :rolleyes:

[BigJulie]

Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment. :eek:

You'd rather believe JS and NOT GOD VIA SCRIPTURE. Tsk. :rolleyes:
A second death---show there must have been a rebirth somewhere along the line.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Scriptures matches this perfectly. Being saved means overcoming death. If it is understood whether Paul is referring to being saved over physical death or being saved over spiritual death, his writings become much easier to understand. As I said before, once it is understood, there is no more debate about whether one can fall from grace or not and the role sin, repentence, and baptism plays in salvation and why we are told to keep the commandments.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[Father_JD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.

You'd rather believe JS and NOT GOD VIA SCRIPTURE. Tsk.


A second ---show there must have been a rebirth somewhere along the line.

Not at all. What is clear is that RESURRECTED PEOPLE WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Why do you ignore this?? But in typical Mormon fashion, you IGNORE scripture for which you can't gainsay, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports your universalism:



1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As usual, you've ignored CONTEXT (that d thing which destroys Mormon arguments!) so it's up to me to point out what's really being said here:


1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the , how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the ?


1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the , then is Christ not risen:


1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.


1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the rise not.


1Cr 15:16 For if the rise not, then is not Christ raised:


1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.


1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the , [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] , by man [came] also the resurrection of the .


1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The context is about:

1. Christ's own resurrection.
2. The statement is qualified: Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone dies. Those who are "in Christ", the BELIEVERS are "made alive".
3. Therefore, The verse refers to the resurrection of BELIEVERS..those that are Christ's at His coming.

The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here. :eek:

And here you wrench Paul's words yet again in a vain effort to make them "universalistic" and conform to Mormon dogma:



Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


So yet again I must feed you the context in order to dispel your misunderstanding of Paul's words:



Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


[I]Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".



Scriptures matches this perfectly. Being saved means overcoming . If it is understood whether Paul is referring to being saved over physical or being saved over spiritual , his writings become much easier to understand. As I said before, once it is understood, there is no more debate about whether one can fall from grace or not and the role sin, repentence, and baptism plays in salvation and why we are told to keep the commandments.


The context trumps your alien imposed Mormon meaning onto the Biblical text each and every time. ;)


Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

And indeed you were, following a FALSE prophet who has led you after the FALSE gods of Mormonism. :eek:

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE=Father_JD;16343]Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.



Not at all. What is clear is that RESURRECTED PEOPLE WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Why do you ignore this?? But in typical Mormon fashion, you IGNORE scripture for which you can't gainsay, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports your universalism: It doesn't say that they will spend eternity in a lake of fire, it says they go into a lake of fire and there is eternal torment. There is a difference....think of it this way, their sins will be completely exposed by the fire of the Holy Ghost and they will suffer eternally because of this. If you want to start interpretting revelation, you need to understand the words fire and eternal.




As usual, you've ignored CONTEXT (that d thing which destroys Mormon arguments!) so it's up to me to point out what's really being said here: No, I am reading it in context...


1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the , [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] , by man [came] also the resurrection of the .


1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. The context speaks that all men will overcome death, first Christ then those who come afterwards, and in this case, Paul explains to those he is writing to, that they will come right after Christ because they are his followers. If you read the Bible as a whole, you will see that everyone will be resurrected and meet the God who created them. As it says, ever man in his own order. If you pretend like there is no other verses other than these in the Bible, this should at a minimum cause you confusion because Paul states that because of Adam ALL die and becaues of Christ ALL are made alive. This seems like such a simple explanation from Paul--because by one man came death, so does life come by one man Jesus Christ. Then Paul explains that in the resurreciton, man will be resurrected in an order. First Christ will be resurrected and then those who follow Christ---but what about those who didn't follow Christ? Are they not resurrected as well---yes! So, by one man came death---Adam...by one man came life--Jesus Christ, but everyone in their order.


The context is about:

1. Christ's own resurrection.
2. The statement is qualified: Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone dies. Those who are "in Christ", the BELIEVERS are "made alive".
3. Therefore, The verse refers to the resurrection of BELIEVERS..those that are Christ's at His coming. Why would God refer to those who come first if there is not those who come after. If you keep reading, it says that Christ puts all things under his feet and turns over everything to God. You misunderstand if you think that Christ is not in charge of everything on the earth, of the earth, and in the earth. While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates. After everything has been restored, the great day of judgement comes where those who are wicked will be exposed and they will be tormented both by what they did or did not do and by their inability to choose freedom and eternal life.


The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here. :eek: Nope, you are missing that the grave shall give up all their dead even the wicked. Do you think this would be possible without Christ?




Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


[I]Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text". So, if I read that verse as you read it, many were made sinners and many were made righteous...can you please explain to me which of us who have been born are not sinners? If I apply the word many both ways?

A really easy way to answer this is if you believe that all will overcome death--will all be saved from physical death? Do you believe this is something that would happen without Christ or is this something that required Christ's atonement to bring about? You can ask yourself "Did Christ save everyone from physical death?"

As I stated before, once you read the scriptures in this context and that all received this grace, to overcome phyical death, then Paul becomes an easy read. Those who believe in Christ understand that their life is not their own. Those who do not believe in Christ do not understand this even though their lives have also been paid for with a price. Paul, is of course, speaking to the believers when he writes to the different areas. Therefore, his address to them would be specific to understanding both their salvation in the physical sense and their salvation in the spiritual sense.

This understanding would stop the divisions that occur within Christianity whether one can fall from grace.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
Resurrection is NOT a "form of salvation", especially in light of scripture's teaching that those of the "Second Resurrection" go into the LAKE OF FIRE where there is eternal torment.

Quote:
Not at all. What is clear is that RESURRECTED PEOPLE WILL SPEND ETERNITY IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. Why do you ignore this?? But in typical Mormon fashion, you IGNORE scripture for which you can't gainsay, and instead proffer OTHER scripture you THINK supports your universalism:



It doesn't say that they will spend eternity in a lake of fire, it says they go into a lake of fire and there is eternal torment. There is a difference....think of it this way, their sins will be completely exposed by the fire of the Holy Ghost and they will suffer eternally because of this. If you want to start interpretting revelation, you need to understand the words fire and eternal.

LOL. You've gotta stop RE-DEFINING Biblical terms in a vain effort to make them conform to Mormon dogma. It's clear from scripture that the devil, his angels, the "beast" and his false prophet are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented ETERNALLY and those not found in Christ have the same fate:


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the , small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the which were in it; and and hell delivered up the which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Rev 20:14 And and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second .


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Cf: Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and ers, and mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second .


You have ZERO evidence that the fate of the ****ed is temporal, making the lake of fire into some kind of Mormon "purgatory".





Quote:
As usual, you've ignored CONTEXT (that d thing which destroys Mormon arguments!) so it's up to me to point out what's really being said here:


No, I am reading it in context...

I'm sure you think you are, but you unconsciously superimpose alien Mormon meaning onto the biblical text at every turn.


Quote:
1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the , [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] , by man [came] also the resurrection of the .


1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


The context speaks that all men will overcome , first Christ then those who come afterwards, and in this case, Paul explains to those he is writing to, that they will come right after Christ because they are his followers. If you read the Bible as a whole, you will see that everyone will be resurrected and meet the God who created them. As it says, ever man in his own order. If you pretend like there is no other verses other than these in the Bible, this should at a minimum cause you confusion because Paul states that because of Adam ALL die and becaues of Christ ALL are made alive. This seems like such a simple explanation from Paul--because by one man came , so does life come by one man Jesus Christ. Then Paul explains that in the resurreciton, man will be resurrected in an order. First Christ will be resurrected and then those who follow Christ---but what about those who didn't follow Christ? Are they not resurrected as well---yes! So, by one man came ---Adam...by one man came life--Jesus Christ, but everyone in their order.

I explained it to you for you to do the Mormon "thing": give a nuh-uh response. I repeat: Paul QUALIFIES what he means:

Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone.
Those who are "in Christ" which means ONLY THE ELECT, REDEEMED PEOPLE OF GOD.

[Father_JD]

Quote:
The context is about:

1. Christ's own resurrection.
2. The statement is qualified: Those who are "in Adam" which means everyone dies. Those who are "in Christ", the BELIEVERS are "made alive".
3. Therefore, The verse refers to the resurrection of BELIEVERS..those that are Christ's at His coming.


Why would God refer to those who come first if there is not those who come after. If you keep reading, it says that Christ puts all things under his feet and turns over everything to God. You misunderstand if you think that Christ is not in charge of everything on the earth, of the earth, and in the earth. While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates. After everything has been restored, the great day of judgement comes where those who are wicked will be exposed and they will be tormented both by what they did or did not do and by their inability to choose freedom and eternal life.

Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him.


Quote:
The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.


Nope, you are missing that the grave shall give up all their even the wicked. Do you think this would be possible without Christ?

Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so. You're missing the point as usual:

The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote:
The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".



So, if I read that verse as you read it, many were made sinners and many were made righteous...can you please explain to me which of us who have been born are not sinners? If I apply the word many both ways?

It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this.



A really easy way to answer this is if you believe that all will overcome --will all be saved from physical ? Do you believe this is something that would happen without Christ or is this something that required Christ's atonement to bring about? You can ask yourself "Did Christ save everyone from physical ?"

You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second Death". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear.


As I stated before, once you read the scriptures in this context and that all received this grace, to overcome phyical , then Paul becomes an easy read. Those who believe in Christ understand that their life is not their own. Those who do not believe in Christ do not understand this even though their lives have also been paid for with a price. Paul, is of course, speaking to the believers when he writes to the different areas. Therefore, his address to them would be specific to understanding both their salvation in the physical sense and their salvation in the spiritual sense.

There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT.


This understanding would stop the divisions that occur within Christianity whether one can fall from grace.

This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible. :rolleyes:

[BigJulie]

Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him. A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.



Quote:
The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here. Thank you for the put-downs.



Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so. And this is another main difference of your intrepretations and beliefs and mine. Unlike you, I do not believe we would be resurrected if it was not for the atonement and resurrection of Christ.


The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.
Christ speaks of a greater ****ation which indicates that there is a lesser ****ation. As you stated that there are different rewards, there are also different degrees of salvation.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote:
The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text". I can see how you read it the way you do, but I don't. I see a broader vision in which Paul is teaching how we are saved.


It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this. It speaks to the grace unto physical salvation or grace unto spiritual salvation. Paul teaches how we overcame physical death and makes a comparison to how we overcome spiritual death. For by one man came death and so by one man came life....but because more than one man is a sinner and there are many sins, it is an amazing gift that by one man all these many sins were covered. This is a direct comparison so that the righteous can appreciate the full scope of what Christ did. I sorry I do not read this as you do. It says be one man all die and by one man all live and then goes on to speak of how this now applies to sin and spiritual death. Do you want me to take this line by line with you so you can see how I read it?




You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second Death". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear. I do and I also realize how God's grace applies to even the ****ed. Do you believe that all the ****ed are sons of perdition?



There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT. After they have been saved which is why this is called the second death.



This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Thank you for the put-downs again.

[Bat-Man]

A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.
Father_JD is actually right about what he is saying, though, at least this time, in some sense, even though you say you don't agree with him.

I recommend that you look at what God says about the sons of perdition, which God did create at one time.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-49#30

And btw, I'm simply trying to give credit where credit is due, BigJulie.

I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

[BigJulie]

Father_JD is actually right about what he is saying, though, at least this time, in some sense, even though you say you don't agree with him.

I recommend that you look at what God says about the sons of perdition, which God did create at one time.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/30-49#30

And btw, I'm simply trying to give credit where credit is due, BigJulie.

I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

On which thing do you think he is right...that God only gives Jesus that which is righteous or that God has give Christ everything and made all subject to him? Or are you talking about something else all together? I acknowledged that Christ will only make intercession for those who follow him, but I do not see this Romans chapter only referring to those who follow Christ as Paul refers to overcoming the sin of Adam. Please explain further so I can understand.

[Bat-Man]

On which thing do you think he is right...that God only gives Jesus that which is righteous or that God has give Christ everything and made all subject to him? Or are you talking about something else all together? I acknowledged that Christ will only make intercession for those who follow him, but I do not see this Romans chapter only referring to those who follow Christ as Paul refers to overcoming the sin of Adam. Please explain further so I can understand.
In post#15 you said:

...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.

[BigJulie]

In post#15 you said:

...While you are right that Paul discusses those who follow Christ, he also is speaking to everything that Christ's saves...which is everything God creates.

Father_JD picked up on that and said, in his usually rude manner, that Christ does not save everything God the Father created, and in saying that he was right.

You might have meant something else when you said what you said, BigJulie, but what Father_JD said was actually spot on, believe it or not.

Christ does not save the sons of perdition, which at one time were created as good children of God our Father in heaven.

Even rude people can tell the truth, sometimes.

Heck, even Satan tells the truth about half of the time, and he is as rude as a person can possibly get when he isn't acting as nice as he possibly can.

Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?

The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.

Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.

[Bat-Man]

Okay, I am ***uming you mean saved from spiritual death. As we know that Cain is a son of perdition, will Cain be saved from physical death...or, otherwise stated, will Cain be resurrected and even have a chance to have a second death?
Cain will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust, unless he will have gotten himself out of the really big mess he got himself into when God called him "Perdition"... not "son of perdition", but "Perdition", himself... and at that time he will suffer the second death, which is to be eternally separated from God, our Father, AND Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost, AND all of us who have followed THEM.


The discussion we are having is to Romans and what it means when Paul states that in Adam all men die, in Christ all men are made alive.
Yes, I realize that. I'm not trying to get involved in your discussion, really.

I'm just pointing out that Father_JD was right, when you said he was wrong, because I think the poor guy should get credit from us at least once in a while when he actually says something which is actually true.


Now, if you want to back track and ask if Satan will be saved...those things that are not of this earth, but what God has created, we can step back and realize that Christ was given the responsibility to save all that was on this earth, which he did with the resurrection from physical death and the for those who follow him of a spiritual death.
Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.

[BigJulie]

Okay. I think I see the point you were getting at, now.

I think you were saying that Jesus Christ is saving or will save, at least to some extent, all of us born on this Earth, including Cain, because without Jesus Christ Cain would never be resurrected from the dead, just as none of the rest of us born on this Earth would be. I agree with you on that, because I consider our resurrection to be a form of salvation... even though it isn't the fulness of salvation that is possible through Jesus Christ.

I'm now simply saying that Father_JD was right when he said what he said, too.

Jesus Christ will not be saving Satan, and Satan was created by God our Father as one of his good children before Satan later chose to be evil.

Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will. He will put all things under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them. Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.

The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference; therefore, when he reads in Adam all die and in Christ shall all be made alive, he is not interpretting it to mean the whole human race, but rather only those who have followed Christ. I do not think this is what Paul was stating. I believe he was comparing the grace Christ gave to all men based on one man's act (Adam) and the grace he gives to all men based on all the sins of men committed.




Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.



Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.



Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....



Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. ... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

[Bat-Man]

Okay, Christ will not save everything, but of this things of this earth he will.
That is right, and I will now give you credit where I see credit is due.


He will put all things# under his feet and when he is finished, He will resurrect and then judge them.
# I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ?


Those who he judges has followed him, he will act as in intercession for God on their behalf, those who do not will go before God without anyone to intercede for them. Those who have no intercession will experience a second death...but this is still not a death of the body, but only a death of the spirit when they are once again removed from God.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me.


The point that Father_JD and I disagree on is that he does not feel that Christ is responsible for the resurrection of all the dead and I do--that is a big difference.
I'm on your side on this one, BigJulie.

Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected.

[BigJulie]

# I think you mean all things of this Earth. Right ? Right...sorry, keep thinking in terms of our own lives and our own experience--not that of Satan and his followers.


I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, here.

Please clarify. Your message came through a little garbled, to me. I am trying to say that after death, we have two positions we can be in---either behind Christ as he makes intercession for us with God the Father (who's atonement will cover out repentant sins) or alone and without Christ because we would not accept his atonement or intercession. This is the great sorting done separating the wheat and the tares...but God judges both the just and the unjust and the unjust will die and be resurrected and judged as well (but all in their order).



Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ, none of us would have been or will be resurrected. Father JD states that it is not because of Jesus Christ that we are resurrected. I am not sure how he can intrepret any of Romans if he doesn't believe that because this Romans Chapter 15 hinges on that fact.

[Bat-Man]

I am trying to say that after death, we have two positions we can be in---either behind Christ as he makes intercession for us with God the Father (whose atonement will cover our repentant sins) or alone and without Christ because we would not accept his atonement or intercession.
I agree, and I'm glad you added that part about our "repentant" sins.

Our Lord is not going to make up for sins for which we have not repented.

Some people may not like that idea, but that is true.


This is the great sorting done separating the wheat and the tares...but God judges both the just and the unjust and the unjust will die and be resurrected and judged as well (but all in their order).
Right, and I'm glad you added that part about "all in our order".

Some will receive telestial glory, some terrestrial, and some celestial glory.

... and some will receive no more glory than we/they have now on Earth.


Father JD states that it is not because of Jesus Christ that we are resurrected. I am not sure how he can interpret any of Romans if he doesn't believe that because this Romans Chapter 15 hinges on that fact.
I don't know either, but I know how he should be doing it if he wants to know what God meant when God said what God said.

When I want to know how to correctly interpret the scriptures, I ask God to TELL me how to correctly interpret the scriptures, and I recommend that everyone else do the same thing.

[Father_JD]

I'm still not talking to Father_JD because I don't approve of how rude he is.

Now don't be in a tizzy, Bat Man, and run and hide like Mr. Maklelan. :p

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Christ does NOT SAVE everything God the Father created. You do NOT know the Bible, you do NOT understand it, but your corrupted Mormon understanding of it. Jesus said that He did NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD, but only for those whom the Father had given Him.


A difference in your an my intrepretation of the Bible. I believe that God put all things under Jesus feet meaning all has been given to him. I also understand that Jesus will only make intercession for those who have chosen to follow him and this is what Christ presents to God at the final judgement. I see how you intrepret it, I just disagree.

Yes, my "interpretation" is based upon a contextual reading of the Bible, yours is based upon Mormon doctrine/beliefs and superimposed onto the Biblical text thereby skewing your understanding of it.



Quote:The p***age is not teaching resurrection is a form of "salvation". That's your kooky Mormon interpretation at work here.


Thank you for the put-downs.

It is what it is, Julie. Only LDS interpret "resurrection" as SALVATION, thereby skewing the intended meaning of the Biblical authors. :eek:



Quote:
Yes, it's completely possible without Christ because God can resurrect whomever He chooses to do so.


And this is another main difference of your intrepretations and beliefs and mine. Unlike you, I do not believe we would be resurrected if it was not for the atonement and resurrection of Christ.

So you believe and you're welcome to your beliefs...just understand that they're NOT based upon the Bible, but upon anti-Biblical Mormon beliefs.


Quote:
The wicked are a part of the "Second Resurrection" and are thrown into the lake of fire. The "Second " is NOT some kind of salvation, ie.


Christ speaks of a greater ****ation which indicates that there is a lesser ****ation. As you stated that there are different rewards, there are also different degrees of salvation.

No, there are differing degrees of rewards in Heaven, and differing degrees of punishment in Hell. Being in the LAKE OF FIRE can NOT be construed to be some kind of "lesser salvation".



Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be , much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto , even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote:
The p***age isn't teaching that ALL men (and women) will be justified, but is teaching that as the first Adam brought and destruction, the "second" Adam, i.e. Christ brings the free justification on those whom Christ will make righteous. The key is the next verse right after your "proof-text".


I can see how you read it the way you do, but I don't. I see a broader vision in which Paul is teaching how we are saved.

You don't, because you're reading the texts through Mormon-colored lenses which distort the intended meaning of Paul.


Quote:
It has to do with Paul's contrasting Adam with Jesus and Greek usage. You've ignored the earlier verses in which is clearly states that SOME have been given the "gift by grace", which means others have NOT been given this.


It speaks to the grace unto physical salvation or grace unto spiritual salvation. Paul teaches how we overcame physical and makes a comparison to how we overcome spiritual . For by one man came and so by one man came life....but because more than one man is a sinner and there are many sins, it is an amazing gift that by one man all these many sins were covered. This is a direct comparison so that the righteous can appreciate the full scope of what Christ did. I sorry I do not read this as you do. It says be one man all die and by one man all live and then goes on to speak of how this now applies to sin and spiritual . Do you want me to take this line by line with you so you can see how I read it?

How many times do I have to explain this to you? You're ignoring the QUALIFIERS:

In Adam: means everyone.
In Christ: means ONLY THOSE REDEEMED IN HIM.

Got it now? :rolleyes:




Quote:
You keep ignoring the Bible's dire warning of those who are of the "Second ". Christ's atonement is NOT efficacious for ****ed people's resurrection. THEY GO TO HELL, AND THEN THE LAKE OF FIRE. You've gotta READ the whole of the Bible, dear.


I do and I also realize how God's grace applies to even the ****ed. Do you believe that all the ****ed are sons of perdition?

Yep. Amazing how you refuse to engage these very serious verses which clearly teach the eternal destiny of the Lost.

Quote:
There is NO salvation in the physical sense FOR THE ****ED. THEY GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Deal with THAT.


After they have been saved which is why this is called the second .

No, the "Second " refers to the eternal, one-way direction of the Lost. The "first" refers to physical . Saved people do NOT go to the Lake Of Fire.



Quote:
This has nothing to do with bizarre Mormon "interpretations" of the Bible.


Thank you for the put-downs again.

BiZarre is what bizarre does, Julie. :D

[Charity]

;)


Hi Fig, I'll try to answer your question from my understanding of scripture.

No one can ignore the commandments of God, without committing sin. In other words, ignoring or breaking God's commandments IS what sin is.

The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus Himself said that ALL the commandments hang on these two.

Paul reiterated this thought in Galatians 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Taking these p***ages into consideration, I believe that anyone who has truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit, will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit and will in so doing, fulfill the two greatest commandments Jesus spoke of.

How does this relate to repentance and baptism?

Repentance: I believe that the very ability to repent is a work of the Spirit of God in the heart of a person. When God's Spirit has effectually convicted a person of their sinfulness, and they have understood the Gospel message of forgiveness in Christ, the response IS repentance. If there is no repentance in a person, they have not been effectually convicted and have not believed the gospel.

Baptism: If a person has been effectually convicted by the Holy Spirit and believed the Gospel, they will be led of the Spirit to please the Lord in all they do. This is the fruit of the Spirit that Paul taught about in Galatians. If a person CLAIMS to have been convicted by God, CLAIMS to have repented of their sins, CLAIMS to have believed the Gospel, and yet stubbornly refuses to follow the Lord in baptism, I would seriously question the validity of their claims. If a person WILLFULLY REFUSES to honor the Lord, what evidence is there that they are obeying the command to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind and strength? If however, there are circumstances that PREVENT an otherwise willing person from following the Lord in baptism, i.e. thief on the cross type of scenarios as one example, or a terminally ill bed-ridden person who at long last believes, in these cases it is evident that the Lord forgives them and accepts them.

GI73

Nice reply

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

(I put the heading, just so you know I am directing this post to your earlier post.)

In a post I made to Bat-man, I went step by step through Romans 15. Do you care to go through it step by step with me so we may have a clear discussion on what you see when you read it verses what I do?

Also, if you don't stop the put-downs, I will just end the conversation. I love you, but not that much. :)

[Father_JD]

(I put the heading, just so you know I am directing this post to your earlier post.)

In a post I made to Bat-man, I went step by step through Romans 15. Do you care to go through it step by step with me so we may have a clear discussion on what you see when you read it verses what I do?

Also, if you don't stop the put-downs, I will just end the conversation. I love you, but not that much. :)

By ALL means, let's go through it step by step which will make us both have to engage CONTEXT. ;)

[BigJulie]

By ALL means, let's go through it step by step which will make us both have to engage CONTEXT. ;)


Okay, here is the one I did earlier.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.


Quote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.



Quote:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.


Quote:
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.


Quote:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.



Quote:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....



Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, you do yours and we can compare, step by step.

[Bat-Man]

Okay, here is the one I did earlier.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.


Quote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam brought the law of death unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought death unto the world) is not in force.



Quote:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.


Quote:
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.


Quote:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, if we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.



Quote:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

So because of Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....



Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

... and the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, you do yours and we can compare, step by step.
Nice try, BigJulie, but Father_JD will simply come back and tell you that he doesn't agree with your interpretation, in certain aspects, and he will continue to not agree with your interpretation until you agree perfectly with his interpretation.

Thus, if you stick to your guns and Father_JD sticks to his guns, you'll both end up essentially in a stand off, until maybe one of you drops your guns and just gives in to what the other person is saying.

... and the person who holds out the longest isn't necessarily going to be the one with the correct interpretation.

You could both end up sticking to your guns, with one of you being right and the other one of you being wrong, and in the end getting what you each chose to receive.

[BigJulie]

Nice try, BigJulie, but Father_JD will simply come back and tell you that he doesn't agree with your interpretation, in certain aspects, and he will continue to not agree with your interpretation until you agree perfectly with his interpretation.

Thus, if you stick to your guns and Father_JD sticks to his guns, you'll both end up essentially in a stand off, until maybe one of you drops your guns and just gives in to what the other person is saying.

... and the person who holds out the longest isn't necessarily going to be the one with the correct interpretation.

You could both end up sticking to your guns, with one of you being right and the other one of you being wrong, and in the end getting what you each chose to receive.


I think it will be interesting to see how he interprets this line by line. As with the discussion of "the wind listeth..." they have not been willing to show a congruent conversation Christ was having with Nicodemus...they take one line and put it with lines from other scriptures, but do not continue explaining how the conversation then is congruent. I would like to see what he says with this. If we agree to disagree, then so be it.

[Father_JD]

No, I will keep demonstrating the VALIDITY of historic Christianity's "interpretation" BY THE CONTEXT and you and BigJulie can only engage in special pleading of "latter-day revelation" as to WHY you interpret the way you do!

In other words, your interpretations can NOT be demonstrated from the Bible ALONE.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
By ALL means, let's go through it step by step which will make us both have to engage CONTEXT.


Okay, here is the one I did earlier.


Quote:
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin; and so p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Because Adam sinned, his consequences where p***ed on to everyone and all reap the consequence of this sin.

And you mean what by this? That this sin is merely physical ?? How about it's meaning Original Sin, whereby we're % in tresp*** and sin" and can NOT help but sin?


Quote:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


Adam brought the law of unto the world, but Adam's sin is not upon us when that law (the one that brought unto the world) is not in force.

But in the following verse, Paul demonstrates that law was in force, hence


Quote:
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Yet, man has reaped the reward (or consequence) of Adam's sin even though they haven't sinned the same sin Adam did, which will be like Christ when he comes, paying a price for a sin he hasn't committed.

Huh? Where in the text does it state that when Christ comes, He'll "pay(ing) a price for a sin He hasn't committed"??? Paul is continuing his parallelism between Adam and Christ.


Quote:
Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


So, because Adam transgressed, all get to pay the price or consequence of his actions---so the judgement of one (Adam) is brought to all of us, but the gift that Christ gives us covers more than just Adam's offenses.

Remember, it's not just about physical , but of spiritual as well: judgment of CONDEMNATION but JUSTIFICATION (forensic, meaning legally deemed as righteous...declared guilt-free) as a FREE GIFT.


Quote:
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


we are subject to the consequence of Adam and we receive this grace to overcome this sin of Adam's--how much more of grace have we received that one man not only takes on the sin of Adam, but all of our sins or many sins.


The text is not saying about His "taking on the sin of Adam" or "all our sins or many sins", but that by GRACE, people will receive the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS, i.e. ETERNAL LIFE.



Quote:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.


use f Adam's sin, we all receive the consequences, but it was the righteousness of one (Christ) that all of us are justified against this consequence....

As seen per verse 17, justification is a GIFT upon "us", i.e. the REDEEMED in Christ. I've already explained that Paul is NOT saying that categorically everyone will be "justified".



Quote:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


the consequences that came about because of Adam's transgressions which gave us the opportunity to sin ourselves (which we did and do), yet because of Christ who is also one man, we also have the opportunity (as we did with Adam to sin) to be righteous with Christ.

Already explained this to you. Paul's preserving his parallelism, but "many" as in being made sinners does mean everyone, but the "many" made righteous can ONLY refer to those who are "in Christ".



Now you do yours and we can compare, step by step.

Did so.:)

[BigJulie]

.





Father JD...I did not see your intrepretation, merely a criticism of mine. What do you believe step by step, line by line, it means?

[Father_JD]

Father JD...I did not see your intrepretation, merely a criticism of mine. What do you believe step by step, line by line, it means?


I told you what they meant in addition to telling you just how you were WRONG. ;)

[BigJulie]

I told you what they meant in addition to telling you just how you were WRONG. ;)

No, I would like to see the coherency in your thought from one line to another--your discussion did not do that. Maybe you can humor me and just do an intrepretation line by line yourself, so I can see your thought process line by line and how one thought moves to the next.

[Father_JD]

No, I would like to see the coherency in your thought from one line to another--your discussion did not do that. Maybe you can humor me and just do an intrepretation line by line yourself, so I can see your thought process line by line and how one thought moves to the next.

I've just looked through my responses. It's all there: what the text is saying and a critique of your Mormon understanding of it. :p

[BigJulie]

I've just looked through my responses. It's all there: what the text is saying and a critique of your Mormon understanding of it. :p

I didn't see it. I went through the response I made and your response to my response, and I didn't see it. If it is there, it should be easy to copy and and paste only your interpretation of the text line by line.

[GraftedIn73]

;)

Nice reply

Thanks Charity!

[Father_JD]

Well, read it again. I don't have time to spoon-feed you, sorry.

[alanmolstad]

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian?


Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?



You have asked two very different questions , although it also appears you do not understand this fact.

The Christian does 'works' because we are saved.
The works come with the salvation we have as a natural part of leading the Life of Christ in our hearts.
The works that we do are recorded, and in the future Kingdom we receive rewards that we have stored up in heaven.

This does not mean that we face a judgement of going to hell...

So this means that doing works, or screwing up and not doing a work is not going to send a saved Christian to hell....thats just silly.

But what we teach is that as you draw closer and closer to Christ you are transformed into the reflection of his life in your heart.

This is why we are to have a very humble heart when thinking of our own works, for the works are not ours but are our Lord simply done though us.
This is why we work out of our salvation with fear and trembling, for we dare not take pride in our works....

[alanmolstad]

After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.

Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

So here is my final question.

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

there was a guy who came to Jesus and asked about how to gain life?

jesus pointed to the commandments.

Then the guy answered that he had always kept the commandments....Then Jesus offered him a chance to drop everything and "follow me"
This is the same request that came to the Disciples...

yet this guy could not do it...and walked away dejected.
So a lifetime spent keeping the commandments, turned out to be a moot point.

But yet we cant blame the commandments.....but we have to always keep in mind that the goal of the christian is to come to Christ.....and that the commandments have but one use in our lives...to bring us to Christ.

if the commandments dont do that?...then keeping them is a moot point.

[The Pheonix]

What are the things a person must do to be saved in the LDS religion.

Just off the top of my head:


Be baptized Mormon by another Mormon with authority to do so
Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands by another Mormon with authority to do so.
***he 10% of one's gross income
Receive the LDS endowment (an initiatory rite performed in LDS temples
Be married to another Mormon in an LDS temple
Participate in "callings" (Relief Society, ward cl***es, singles wards, etc.)
Support the leadership of the LDS church
Make covenants and keep them
Repent
Have faith
Gain and maintain a testimony that the LDS church is true and the Book of Mormon is from God



What else must a person do to be saved?Have you ever answered a question directly? Did you feel you needed to move to SLC to preach to Mormons? If so Russell, where did you receive that commandment and calling?

[alanmolstad]

i just believe...and let god do the rest

[The Pheonix]

i just believe...and let god do the restWhat of the Sermon on the Mount, all geared toward commandments and the obedience of commandments to receive the fullness of God 's blessings and entrance into the kingdom of heaven...believe in Christ, but believe Christ.

[alanmolstad]

not by works am I saved...not though my effort do I remain saved....

[The Pheonix]

not by works am I saved...not though my effort do I remain saved....I am talking about the words of Christ, spoken by Christ. So many have built their hopes on a misunderstanding of Romans, and it has become like a chant to reinforce belief. Instead of just believing in Christ, but to "believe Christ".

[Libby]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

The requirement of the law was "perfection". Man was never going to make the grade...never could, never will be able to....only Jesus Christ could do that...and he did it for us. It's done.

[alanmolstad]

the law is like my 3rd Grade teacher.
While I was in the 3rd grade then the teacher's word was law...and I had to go to where the teacher was every day.

But once I was no longer in 3rd grade then I no longer show up each day at the teacher's room.

the teacher for a time had authority, but not any more at all...



The same is true of the law.
The law brings you to Christ, but in Christ we die in baptism....and as the law can not bind anyone who is dead, Im now set free of the law to live now not by efforts and laws but rather by grace and faith

[The Pheonix]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

The requirement of the law was "perfection". Man was never going to make the grade...never could, never will be able to....only Jesus Christ could do that...and he did it for us. It's done.
You are right Libby, we will all come up short...then Grace will carry us over. But I do not think that Grace will pull all the way to where nothing was ever started.

[Libby]

You are right Libby, we will all come up short...then Grace will carry us over. But I do not think that Grace will pull all the way to where nothing was ever started.

How could God's grace not be enough? You won't get better than that, especially not from your own strivings.

[Phoenix]

How could God's grace not be enough?
Was grace enough to save the spirits who followed Satan? Seems like there was something THEY needed to contribute to their salvation, something that they neglected to do.

[Libby]

Was grace enough to save the spirits who followed Satan? Seems like there was something THEY needed to contribute to their salvation, something that they neglected to do.

Yes, they forgot to put their faith in God...and followed Satan, instead...just like Adam and Eve.

[Phoenix]

Yes, they forgot to put their faith in God...and followed Satan, instead...just like Adam and Eve.

So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?

[disciple]

So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?

Our salvation is based on grace, our relationship and fellowship with God is predicated by our obedience. You don't lose salvation by disobedience but you lose the benefits of a close relationship with God and put yourself in harms way.

[Phoenix]

Our salvation is based on grace, our relationship and fellowship with God is predicated by our obedience. You don't lose salvation by disobedience but you lose the benefits of a close relationship with God and put yourself in harms way.

You explained that well, IMO. But it comes down to three possibilities that I can see:

1-- OSAS is a true doctrine,

or

2-- it is possible to become one of the elect but if you don't endure to the end in faith--if you later reject and renounce Christ your name, which had been in the book of life, gets taken out of it,

or,

3--- (the option I believe is the true and biblical one), eternal life is a destination that you arrive at, after you have shown a lifetime of loyalty and faith from the time you started on the path that leads to eternal life when you accepted Christ and promised to follow Him.

[disciple]

You explained that well, IMO. But it comes down to three possibilities that I can see:

1-- OSAS is a true doctrine,

or

2-- it is possible to become one of the elect but if you don't endure to the end in faith--if you later reject and renounce Christ your name, which had been in the book of life, gets taken out of it,

or,

3--- (the option I believe is the true and biblical one), eternal life is a destination that you arrive at, after you have shown a lifetime of loyalty and faith from the time you started on the path that leads to eternal life when you accepted Christ and promised to follow Him.

Greetings,

I believe that eternal life is what the Bible says it is...eternal. If we were capable of losing our salvation, we would, every one of us. But it is God who keeps us (Jude 24) for we cannot keep ourselves. John explains those who seem to fall away or don't endure. 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

[Libby]

So then you agree that grace ISN'T enough--obedience to God is also necessary, or you'll end up like those spirits who followed satan...or like Adam and Eve. Right?

I specifically mentioned "faith"....obedience will come from faith. It doesn't do any good to simply be obedient, if your heart is not right with God. Jesus pointed that out with the Pharisees, who were extremely obedient to the law, but had very hard hearts. They didn't have faith in God; they had faith in themselves, and their own works.

[Libby]

Disciple, I am curious about your avatar. Is that your church's symbol? It reminds me a lot of the CRC symbol, which is a triangle with a cross in the middle.

http://www.crcna.org/sites/default/files/crxx_ChristRefChurch_graphic_black.png

[disciple]

Disciple, I am curious about your avatar. Is that your church's symbol? It reminds me a lot of the CRC symbol, which is a triangle with a cross in the middle.

http://www.crcna.org/sites/default/files/crxx_ChristRefChurch_graphic_black.png

It is a yield sign, meaning I yield, to Christ.

[Libby]

It is a yield sign, meaning I yield, to Christ.

Ah...that's cool. :)

[Phoenix]

Greetings,
I believe that eternal life is what the Bible says it is...eternal.

I believe the same thing, of course. "Life everlasting" is a synonym. The issue being debated--which has been debated ever since Calvinism was invented, at least--is WHEN God actually gives it to you. There are Bible verses that can be used to support all 3 positions that I mentioned. That is why there isn't universal consensus on the issue. You have chosen to believe one of the 3. Other people choose one of the other two.


If we were capable of losing our salvation, we would, every one of us.
That is a buzzword that might be popular in some circles right now, but it didn't come from the Bible IMO, and it depends on the shaky premise that you already had eternal life and thus had something to lose. If eternal life is something that is in your future--something you are now on the path that leads to it--then the whole "lose your salvation" issue is moot because you don't yet have it. What we should be worrying about (working out with fear and trembling) is the very real possibility that we won't stay on the path the whole way to the destination. It is easy for someone who has started down the path that leads to eternal life, to wander off it. If that person doesn't get back on the path, he will never make it to the destination. That is the real, serious, danger that we all need to be careful about. We need to make sure we are "good ground" that the seed, when planted in us, grows all the way to maturity, and doesn't wither away and die when the weather gets bad. We need to make sure we aren't dry or rocky soil.

There are multiple verses warning the saints to be careful not to fall away, which implies that it's possible for any of us--even the elect--to fall away. There are warnings that certain acts of disobedience will result in the curse of having your name removed from the book of life, and warnings about the seriousness of committing the unpardonable sin. So obviously the only way you can be sure you will arrive at the destination is if you are careful to stay on the path that leads there, or, if you have wandered off it, to get back on it ASAP.


John explains those who seem to fall away or don't endure. 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
That isn't referring to the issue of whether or not it's possible to lose one's salvation; it's just talking about people who appeared to be "true, stable believers" but who really weren't. Perhaps they were imposters, wolves in sheep's clothing, or perhaps they were some of the unstable joiners who didn't stay grounded in the true gospel. That's why, when they deserted like Bowe Bergdahl did to the Army, it's evidence that they were never really true, loyal disciples.

[Libby]

There are multiple verses warning the saints to be careful not to fall away, which implies that it's possible for any of us--even the elect--to fall away.

Actually, the verse goes like this:

"For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect."

Some take that to mean it's not possible.

There are verses that seem to support perseverance of the saints, like John 10.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

[Phoenix]

Actually, the verse goes like this:

"For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect."

Some take that to mean it's not possible.

You are correct: some DO take it that way.

There are verses that seem to support perseverance of the saints, like John 10.
.
Yes. That's why I said that there are verses that can be used to support all 3 soteriologies.

[Libby]

You are correct: some DO take it that way.

Yes. That's why I said that there are verses that can be used to support all 3 soteriologies.

Yeah, I agree with that.

[The Pheonix]

How could God's grace not be enough? You won't get better than that, especially not from your own strivings.I think you are misreading some of my statements. God's Grace is all that saves men and women and all children from death and hell.

[Libby]

I think you are misreading some of my statements. God's Grace is all that saves men and women and all children from death and hell.

So, you are a "grace alone" believer? :)

This may sound silly to you, but one of the things that gave me an "aha" moment (regarding "works salvation") and really made me stop and think, was the idea that, in the LDS Church, one could be prevented from attaining the highest glory by simply drinking coffee.

That's not to say that obedience doesn't have a place, because it does. But, God's grace and the faith we receive, in Christ's Atoning sacrifice, is all we need to be with God. His works, in and through us, will manifest as a sign that we have received faith, but it is not the thing that saves us. That was a huge revelation to me.

[Phoenix]

So, you are a "grace alone" believer? :)

This may sound silly to you, but one of the things that gave me an "aha" moment (regarding "works salvation") and really made me stop and think, was the idea that, in the LDS Church, one could be prevented from attaining the highest glory by simply drinking coffee.

That's not to say that obedience doesn't have a place, because it does. But, God's grace and the faith we receive, in Christ's Atoning sacrifice, is all we need to be with God. His works, in and through us, will manifest as a sign that we have received faith, but it is not the thing that saves us. That was a huge revelation to me.

I am not "THE Pheonix," I am the other one, but I do have questions for you:

In the OT story of Uzzah, the man chosen and ***igned to transport the Ark on a wagon, the wagon hit a bump in the road, and Uzzah tried to keep the Ark from falling off the wagon. He got fried and died as a result.

Did Uzzah commit a sin the second before he died?
Did he get salvation despite the act of disobedience to God he committed right before he died?

[alanmolstad]

I am not "THE Pheonix,"
You might want to......perhaps.....think about .....a new name?

(Im just suggesting it here...LOL The truth is, i long ago gave up attempting to tell the difference)

[alanmolstad]

I am not "THE Pheonix," I am the other one,

Or another suggestion is to post a photo so that at a glance i get who is talking to us....

[alanmolstad]

Did Uzzah commit a sin the second before he died?

yes!

How was the ark being moved?__________on a cart?

And, what was the reason for the ark's poles and the rings on it that held the poles?.....





The truth is, the guy was killed as the 'last straw"....the idea of putting the ark on a cart and having some cows or whatever drag it around is NOT allowed in the text at all!!!!!!

So being that the guy was in charge and was doing things he knew were wrong, (or should have known) we then can understand that his death was the result of breaking the law and being reckless with god's ark...

Not just foolish...but actually reckless with it....

[alanmolstad]

Did he get salvation despite the act of disobedience to God he committed right before he died?

I cant think of a reason why not......

I have no problem learning he was saved and that one day we will have the chance to meet with him and talk to him.
He was killed for his actions, as many other people are that are saved and we will see in the kingdom. (see ACTS 5:5)

[Libby]

I am not "THE Pheonix," I am the other one, but I do have questions for you:

In the OT story of Uzzah, the man chosen and ***igned to transport the Ark on a wagon, the wagon hit a bump in the road, and Uzzah tried to keep the Ark from falling off the wagon. He got fried and died as a result.

Did Uzzah commit a sin the second before he died?
Did he get salvation despite the act of disobedience to God he committed right before he died?

He committed a sin and I don't really know what the eternal consequence was, but I doubt he went to hell.

[Phoenix]

I cant think of a reason why not......
How about "not repenting before death" as a reason?


He was killed for his actions, as many other people are that are saved and we will see in the kingdom. (see ACTS 5:5)
But he was killed BY GOD for his actions. That's not really a good omen for his salvation, don't you think?
Look at Ananias and Sapphira: Wasn't that about the same situation as Uzzah?

1. Disobeyed God.
2. God killed them for doing that.
3. God still gave them eternal life?

[Phoenix]

He committed a sin and I don't really know what the eternal consequence was, but I doubt he went to hell.
Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?

[alanmolstad]

How about "not repenting before death" as a reason?


?

God is not a moron...He knows that when you die you have no more chance to say "Hey, sorry about that".....

[alanmolstad]

H


But he was killed BY GOD for his actions. That's not really a good omen for his salvation, don't you think?

?sometimes the Lord disciplines his own children.....

So the truth is, that had the same sin been done by total unbelievers we would never hear about them for they would not be all that important as the person is lost....but the sins of a believer are a lesson for us all.....for they are errors within the family of God...

[alanmolstad]

1. Disobeyed God.
2. God killed them for doing that.
3. God still gave them eternal life?yes...remember the verse that talks about this...the destruction of the body that the soul might be saved....
It's how God works with us who are mixed up as to some issues, but right with Him as our Savior....

[alanmolstad]

Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?
they were believers...this is clear...so at death they went to the father as all Christians do...but they did suffer loss here in the flesh due to their sins...as we tend to also do....

[Libby]

Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?

I think, maybe, you are demonstrating the difference between works salvation and salvation by grace alone. God is the one who saves, not us.

He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy (***us 3:5).

[alanmolstad]

yes.....we dont have a "works salvation" in the Christian faith.

We are saved and kept saved via the cross of Christ ...this means that while in the flesh we may truly suffer for the things we do, we yet do not live in fear of losing our salvation.

In other words, I do not keep needing to do 'works' to keep myself saved.

So this means that while Ananias and Sapphira did suffer for the poor choices they both made, yet they were never in any danger of a loss of salvation dueto their actions.


This is true not only for them, but for all of us too.
All Christians are once saved/always saved, yet we can and do suffer for the poor decisions that we make.

I can make a bad call about something, yet Im not in danger of being lost......but I am in danger of having the Lord chastise me for my actions, as a good Father will chastise his children when they are doing what is wrong.

[RealFakeHair]

Do you doubt that Ananias and Sapphira went to hell?

The only person I know who is in Hell is the Rich Man!

[Phoenix]

they were believers...this is clear...so at death they went to the father as all Christians do...but they did suffer loss here in the flesh due to their sins...as we tend to also do....

So they didn't lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit?

[RealFakeHair]

So they didn't lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit?
yes they did and they paid with their lives.

[alanmolstad]

So they didn't lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit?

what part of my answer is not clear to you?

[Phoenix]

what part of my answer is not clear to you?

The part where you don't say that to lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit is said by the Bible to be unpardonable.

[alanmolstad]

The part where you don't say that to lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit is said by the Bible to be unpardonable.

You are confused as to what the "unpardonable sin" is....

Go look it up...
(see http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html )

The two people in this Bible story that died did NOT commit such a sin.
Rather they fall under the list of people that suffered in their flesh by the hand of God that their souls might be saved.
(see 1 Corinthians 5:5 and 1 Corinthians 11:30 )

So this means that they never lost their salvation, (as no Christian actually has to do things to remained in a state of being "saved")

But you can suffer in the flesh for the sins you do as a judgement by the father, For the text tells us that a loving Father will chastise his children....


TO SUM IT UP:
The thing I think I need to highlight here is that we should not be running around making the unpardonable sin something that is easy to do.
We don't want to scare Christians into thinking that they might have committed this sin, and are therefore without hope.

Rather I think the wisest thing to do is to point out to people that the true "unpardonable sin is defined in the Bible as being something that Christ ran into when people gave credit to Satan for his works.
And that this is far, far, fa,r different then the types of things we all can be fund guilty of, such as "telling a lie"......or misrepresenting yourself to others....


and also, we need to always make sure that we teach that a Christian is NOT able to commit the unpardonable sin.

Thus the two Christians in the story in ACTS that drop over dead when confronted with their sin are not in any danger at all of a loss of their salvation!

But we can and do suffer in our flesh for the sins that we may do....for a loving Father will chastise his children to teach and correct them.

[alanmolstad]

yes.....we dont have a "works salvation" in the Christian faith.

We are saved and kept saved via the cross of Christ ...this means that while in the flesh we may truly suffer for the things we do, we yet do not live in fear of losing our salvation.

In other words, I do not keep needing to do 'works' to keep myself saved.

So this means that while Ananias and Sapphira did suffer for the poor choices they both made, yet they were never in any danger of a loss of salvation dueto their actions.


This is true not only for them, but for all of us too.
All Christians are once saved/always saved, yet we can and do suffer for the poor decisions that we make.

I can make a bad call about something, yet Im not in danger of being lost......but I am in danger of having the Lord chastise me for my actions, as a good Father will chastise his children when they are doing what is wrong.

I think this is one of my best answers on this topic of "keeping the Law"

[dberrie2000]

yes.....we dont have a "works salvation" in the Christian faith.

Would this be a "works salvation" theology?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


We are saved and kept saved via the cross of Christ ...this means that while in the flesh we may truly suffer for the things we do, we yet do not live in fear of losing our salvation.

IOW--the condition of enduring to the end for salvation--is a false doctrine?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


In other words, I do not keep needing to do 'works' to keep myself saved.

So this means that while Ananias and Sapphira did suffer for the poor choices they both made, yet they were never in any danger of a loss of salvation dueto their actions.


This is true not only for them, but for all of us too.

All Christians are once saved/always saved, yet we can and do suffer for the poor decisions that we make.

Could you tell us whether "his own servants" was a reference to those who were saved?

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Apologette]

After asking whether Baptism was a commandment, the answer from the LDS critics was "yes". But then comments drifted into the idea that there were no eternal consequences for not obeying this commandment.

Later I asked whether repentance was a commandment. I am waiting for a response from the non-LDS to this question. (LDS believe it is a commandment btw.)

So here is my final question.

Does obedience (or disobedience) to God's commandments carry any eternal consequences for the Christian? Or to put it differently, is obedience to God's commandments at all necessary for salvation?

My guess is that most LDS critics will say 'NO', and use scriptures like Romans 8:28-29 to show it.

Disobedience to the commandment to follow the Jesus of the Bible does carry an eternal consequence as I'm sure Fig has found out by now.

[BigJulie]

Disobedience to the commandment to follow the Jesus of the Bible does carry an eternal consequence as I'm sure Fig has found out by now.

I am sure Fig is fine. May he rest in peace.

[Apologette]

I am sure Fig is fine. May he rest in peace.

Nope, I encountered him on many forums, and on each he fought against the Church founded by Christ and denied the truths of Scripture. There is no peace for the wicked. He never repented, as far as I know, and if he did not, he has reaped exactly what he has sown - as will you.

[BigJulie]

Nope, I encountered him on many forums, and on each he fought against the Church founded by Christ and denied the truths of Scripture. There is no peace for the wicked. He never repented, as far as I know, and if he did not, he has reaped exactly what he has sown - as will you.

As I said before, as you judge, so shall ye be judged. If you read the New Testament, you will see that Christ is very forgiving of a lot of people who did a lot of bad things--but the one place he had no tolerance was for those who thought they had the truth (Pharisees) and went about condemning others.

His words "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

[dberrie2000]

Would this be a "works salvation" theology?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

IOW--the condition of enduring to the end for salvation--is a false doctrine?

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Could you tell us whether "his own servants" was a reference to those who were saved?

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version (KJV)
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Bump for anyone

[Phoenix]

Bump for anyone

Hi. good to see you......

One question, not for you but for others:

How is it fair that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Ghost right before they died, and still get to go to heaven, even though denying the Holy Ghost is called the unpardonable sin?

And how is it fair that a poor African villager died without hearing the gospel, and therefore must spend eternity in hell?

[alanmolstad]

And how is it fair that a poor African villager died without hearing the gospel, and therefore must spend eternity in hell?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVXMUDC_pw8&t=2s




The creator of the universe knows how to judge his own creation.

[Phoenix]

The creator of the universe knows how to judge his own creation.

So Ananias and Sapphira, and Uzzah, and Mormons, and everyone else who you think rejected Jesus before they died, could still end up in heaven.

That is interesting. Thank you.

[alanmolstad]

If a person responds to the light God sends them. ..

By talking to a Christian and being informed that Smith was a false prophet the Mormon has received light...thus if the Mormon responds correctly and believes this light then God will draw them closer to brighter light.
And thus the Mormon is pulled out of the sin of mormonisom.

However should the Mormon turn away from the light given them via the Christian them the Mormon dies in sin and is sent to eternal hell.

[alanmolstad]

Oh and by the way, Smith was a false prophet.

[Phoenix]

If a person responds to the light God sends them. ..
By talking to a Christian and being informed that Smith was a false prophet the Mormon has received light...thus if the Mormon responds correctly and believes this light then God will draw them closer to brighter light.
And thus the Mormon is pulled out of the sin of mormonisom

Is it necessary that they be pulled out of their sins before they die?



However should the Mormon turn away from the light given them via the Christian them the Mormon dies in sin and is sent to eternal hell.
Did Ananias and Sapphira turn away from the light given them? Didn't they die in their sin? So, according to your soteriology, haven't they been in eternal hell for over 1970 years, and aren't they in eternal hell right now?

[alanmolstad]

Is it necessary that they be pulled out of their sins before they die?



It is...

We all are saved by grace through faith.
If you have no faith...

That is the reason we are sent into the world to teach the lost...

It's because they are lost.

Lost means you are doomed to eternal hell.

[alanmolstad]

Did Ananias and Sapphira turn away from the light given them? Didn't they die in their sin? So, according to your soteriology, haven't they been in eternal hell for over 1970 years, and aren't they in eternal hell right now?

Walter Martin once said that they might be an example of God judging a Christian. ..where the body is lost yet the soul is saved through it.

Or they were not Christian and died in their sins and thus burn in hell today.

[alanmolstad]

As for it being 1970 years?

I have no idea of how many years it's been so far. ..

[dberrie2000]

It is...We all are saved by grace through faith.

Is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Matthew 25:31-46--King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Alan--could you explain to us why those who did not do God's works--were cast into "everlasting punishment"?

[alanmolstad]

Is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Matthew 25:31-46--King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Alan--could you explain to us why those who did not do God's works--were cast into "everlasting punishment"?

Faith is never without works....



This is why it says we are saved to do good works.

And that is in agreement with the Bible where it teaches the doctrine that all are saved by God's grace though faith and not by works.



For while we are not saved by our works, we do find that works always come with faith....its just a natural part of the christian life :)

[alanmolstad]

The part where you don't say that to lie to or sin against the Holy Spirit is said by the Bible to be unpardonable.

The Bible does talk about a sin against the Holy Spirit, but in the example we see that talks about that in the Bible it seems to address the people that admitted that Jesus could heal people, but claimed this healing power came from Satan.

That is the clearest example of what is called the sin against the Holy Spirit.



Im not sure where the act of telling a known "lie" is considered to sin against the Holy Spirit?



Walter martin used to always tell people that Christians can NEVER be guilty of that sin.




as for the story where the husband and his wife die and are said to lie to the Holy Spirit?....the answer we have from Walter Martin is that they may have been the types of Christians that will suffer in the body, (destruction of the body) yet their souls are not in danger.


see 1 Corinthians 5:5 for where that is from.

[dberrie2000]

Faith is never without works....

IOW--when you state we are saved by grace through faith--that is a reference to a faith with works?


This is why it says we are saved to do good works.

So--are you claiming we obtain salvation through a faith without works--and then we do the works? I thought you testified faith is never without works?

Was there a faith with works in obtaining salvation by grace through faith?

[dberrie2000]

The Bible does talk about a sin against the Holy Spirit, but in the exampole we see that talks about that in the Bible it seems to address the people that admitted that Jesus could heal people, but claimed this healing power came from Satan.

That is the clearest example of what is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

Im not sure where the act of telling a known "lie" is considered to sin against the Holy Spirit?

Walter martin used to always tell people that Christians can NEVER be guilty of that sin.

But they can be guilty of these sins?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[alanmolstad]

IOW--when you state we are saved by grace through faith--that is a reference to a faith with works?




I dont know how else to write this????


Once again, we are saved by Grace ALONE though faith ALONE!.......no works!




Zero works are needed to be added.....zip, zero,,,squat!





So to sum it all up?
We are saved by grace though faith and not by works, and yet faith is never without works.




any questions?

[alanmolstad]

But they can be guilty of these sins?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The point of that list is that its aimed at everyone....all people.....all of us humans.
The list is aimed at showing us that regardless of the sins in your life, the blood of the cross can clean you of the stain of sin.



This is to help people that might feel great shame at the very darkest sins in their life that they dont have to run away and try to hide their past from God,,,for the message of hope we bring to the lost world is that of a cross, where a man took the full punishment for your sins in his own body.
And that if you turn to him and believe you are given the full credit of his sinless life as your own.



Thats why in judgement when we go before the Lord, he will look at us and only see the sinless life of christ credited to us, and declares us righteous in his sight!

[alanmolstad]

The point of that list is that its aimed at everyone....all people.....all of us humans.
The list is aimed at showing us that regardless of the sins in your life, the blood of the cross can clean you of the stain of sin.



This is to help people that might feel great shame at the very darkest sins in their life that they dont have to run away and try to hide their past from God,,,for the message of hope we bring to the lost world is that of a cross, where a man took the full punishment for your sins in his own body.
And that if you turn to him and believe you are given the full credit of his sinless life as your own.



Thats why in judgement when we go before the Lord, he will look at us and only see the sinless life of christ credited to us, and declares us righteous in his sight!

I like this answer!


One of my better efforts!,,,:)

[alanmolstad]

for more information - see 1 Corinthians 6:11

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform ****sexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."




The list is actually aimed at all of us.
The list could be page after page I would guess in length and even that would not give a full accounting of the flaws seen in men's hearts.

and yet, the answer to all this is the very same, for we are saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

So to turn to the Lord and believe frees a person from his past sins, and you rise and walk in new life.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post But they can be guilty of these sins?

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


The point of that list is that its aimed at everyone....all people.....all of us humans.
The list is aimed at showing us that regardless of the sins in your life, the blood of the cross can clean you of the stain of sin.

That is only for those who repent of those sins--and move away from them, by walking in the Light:

1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The Blood is conditional upon walking in the light--as He is in the light.

The claim by the faith alone that God cleanseth us from all sins while we repeat those sins over and over--is a false claim.

The Biblical text testifies only those who obey the gospel receive of God's grace unto life--as a personal reception:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9--King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;