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johnd
05-27-2009, 08:20 AM
There were actually three in the past and a fourth will be built.

Solomon's Temple destroyed in 586 BC.
Zerubbabel's Temple / Herod's Temple destroyed in 70 AD.
Tribulation Temple / Millennial Temple.

The tribulation Temple, surprisingly to most, will not be destroyed. P***ages thought to indicate it will refer rather to Zerubbabel's /Herod's Temple.

Luke 19:41-44
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it
42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.
43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.
44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

And so on.

The Temple will be cleansed and used during the Millennium as a ceremonial thanksgiving worship center when Edenic conditions are restored to the Earth and people will live to be about a 1000 years old.

Isaiah 65:20
20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.


Isaiah 2
1 This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:
2 In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.
3 Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
5 Come, O house of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the LORD.
6 You have abandoned your people, the house of Jacob. They are full of supers***ions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and clasp hands with pagans.
7 Their land is full of silver and gold; there is no end to their treasures. Their land is full of horses; there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is full of idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their fingers have made.
9 So man will be brought low and mankind humbled— do not forgive them.
10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
12 The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty, and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low and the pride of men humbled; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.
19 Men will flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day men will throw away to the rodents and bats their idols of silver and idols of gold, which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks and to the overhanging crags from dread of the LORD and the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to shake the earth.
22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

johnd
10-24-2009, 07:38 PM
Don't let the ***le mislead you. This is not about true Messianic Prophecy versus false prophecies about the Messiah. This is about two types of prophecy:


The True Messiah
The False Messiah

There aren't as many prophecies about the ultimate false messiah as there are about the true Messiah, Jesus. But there are many prophecies about the false messiah. And as the prophecies about the true Messiah are authenticators and identifiers of him, so are the prophecies about the false messiah about him.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-11
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:17-25
17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.
19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Revelation 20:1-3
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Remember Satan personally entered (possessed) Judas:

Luke 22:3
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.

John 13:26-27
26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

It was go for broke defeat the Son of God moment ensuring his defeat on the cross, so the devil pulled out all the plugs to personally enter a human being (which apparently is what imprisons fallen angels Jude 6 to the fate of that human host)


Isaiah 14
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, ‘Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.’
9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

johnd
10-24-2009, 07:39 PM
Revelation 13
1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth— by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Then I stood on the sand of the sea.

Genesis 22:17
17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Abraham has two lineages, physical heirs (sand by the sea) and spiritual heirs (stars of the heavens). Incidentally, it is these stars that Lucifer claimed he would raise himself above. And for a time, times, and half a time he is given the power to do so (see Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:5-10). Since believers in Jesus Christ will not take the mark of the beast... and no one can buy nor sell without it (food, shelter, clothing etc), then 666 is actually a tracking device to find those who refuse to take it.

And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea,

The sea in scripture is the depiction of deep darkness, the unknown (Genesis 1:2, Isaiah 29:15, Daniel 2:22), and of the m***es of peoples of the nations (Revelation 17:14). This is where the tendency to Gentilize the antichrist comes from. Rather, the warnings of the Lord himself and other prophecies suggest the beast will be Jewish (Daniel 11:37, Matthew 24:15-20) but will have influence over the Gentiles. See Revelation 13:4-8.

having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

See Revelation 17 & 18 which describe the Sanhedrin / court of the beast

Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.

Many have undertaken this p***age to determine where he comes from. it may just be describing the kings / kingdoms that will give their power to the beast (Revelation 17 & 18). That being the case, I find the fickle-mindedness of mankind prevents much certainty in these kinds of prophetic studies. Many nations used the symbols (some to purposely align with prophecy).

The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

This is one of the most convincing verses in the Bible (to me) that Judas is the antichrist. What human being would the devil give his power and throne and great authority to except the one man he personally possessed?

And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded,

Judas hanged himself. His body burst open on the rocks below (interestingly in the Hinnom valley where Gehenna or hell was a depiction of early on in Hebrew theology).

and his deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 20 clearly states the devil will be loosed again from the abyss for a short season. We call that season Daniel's 70th Week. Half of which is the believer's tribulation which the devil imposes on them. Half is the great tribulation where God's wrath is poured out on the world and the devil.

And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

This would have to be the most convincing evidence of all time to fool skeptics, atheists, and other religions to follow this guy. Think of it. If Judas Iscariot came back from the grave and was able to prove he is who he says he is. DNA or blood content common to 2000 years ago. The world would hang on his every word.

So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

When one comes back from the dead... who can make war with them by physical means?

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

42 months is half the 7 year period known as the 70th Week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27).

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth— by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

This is a tandem prophecy about one and the same person whose previous life had nothing at all to do with the messianic office. But Judas will blaspheme against God yet somehow still convince the Jews (John 5:43). It will be Jesus he blasphemes claiming he was not Christ. And this "other" beast" will be Judas portrayal of himself as the messiah (note the messianic symbolism of two horns like a lamb...)

He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

It amazes me the 2000 year old prophecies about modern technology like this apparent prophecy of computerized robotics. Like the satellite television capabilities in Revelation 11:9-10, or the nuclear blast (Zechariah 14:12).

He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

johnd
10-24-2009, 08:56 PM
Here is wisdom.

1 Kings 10:14
14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,

Let him who has understanding

2 Chronicles 9:1313 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred and threescore and six talents of gold;

calculate the number of the beast,

for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Ezra 2:13
13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.
Nehemiah 7:1717 The children of Azgad, two thousand three hundred twenty and two.

Nehemiah 7:18
18 The children of Adonikam, six hundred threescore and seven.

Adoni qum means "risen lord" hailing back to Revelation 13:3. And as we see in the second census there was an addition to the tribe of Adonikam signifying that the tribe itself is not in the false messianic line or prophecy.

So Solomon... the man with the most understanding and wisdom... who lead Israel into idolatry and paganism (worship of foreign gods). Builder of the first Temple...

The false messiah / antichrist will also be a builder of the Jewish temple.

In fact, the calculation of the number of the beast is about the two Jewish temples which were destroyed on the same Hebrew calendar date 666 years apart.

johnd
05-18-2010, 09:13 PM
Incidentally...

The first and second Jewish temples read like this...

Temple one destroyed in 586 BCE laid in ruins 70 years then it was rebuilt (temple two) stood 586 years and was destroyed in 70 CE.

johnd
05-18-2010, 09:15 PM
Temple one was destroyed on Tisha b'AV 586 BCE
Temple two was destroyed on Tisha b'Av 70 CE

the same calendar date on the Hebrew calendars 666 Hebrew years apart to the day.

asdf
05-18-2010, 09:26 PM
Temple one was destroyed on Tisha b'AV 586 BCE
Temple two was destroyed on Tisha b'Av 70 CE

the same calendar date on the Hebrew calendars 666 Hebrew years apart to the day.

586+70=656

What am I missing?

johnd
05-18-2010, 09:35 PM
586+70=656

What am I missing?

365.25 days = 1 year Gentile
360 days = 1 year Jewish

365.25 X 656 ÷ 360 = 665.666666 (solved as precisely 666 because the dates are exact).

asdf
05-18-2010, 09:39 PM
365.25 days = 1 year Gentile
360 days = 1 year Jewish

365.25 X 656 ÷ 360 = 665.666666 (solved as precisely 666 because the dates are exact).

Okay, thanks.

asdf
05-18-2010, 09:43 PM
365.25 days = 1 year Gentile
360 days = 1 year Jewish

365.25 X 656 ÷ 360 = 665.666666 (solved as precisely 666 because the dates are exact).

But wait a second. According to the all-knowing Wikipedia (;)), the Hebrew calendar is lunisolar, not strictly lunar.

Tisha B'Av (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisha_B%27Av) always falls in July or August. . .so how can you gain an extra 10 years in there?

EDITED TO ADD: not to mention that the calendar—and thus the feast days—are tied to the schedule of harvest.

Because of the roughly eleven-day difference between twelve lunar months and one solar year, the year lengths of the Hebrew calendar vary in a repeating 19-year Metonic cycle of 235 lunar months, with an intercalary lunar month added according to defined rules every two or three years, for a total of 7 times per 19 years. Seasonal references in the Hebrew calendar reflect its development in the region east of the Mediterranean and the times and climate of the Northern Hemisphere. The Hebrew calendar's year is longer by about 6 minutes and 25+25/57 seconds than the present-day mean solar year, so that every 224 years, the Hebrew calendar will fall a full day behind the modern fixed solar year, and about every 231 years it will fall a full day behind the Gregorian calendar year.
(wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_calendar))

johnd
05-19-2010, 03:19 AM
So... the renown infallible author of wiki takes a clearly biblical 360 day year and reckons it to the contemporary (extra-biblical) solar 365.25 day year?

Is that what you are saying?

And are you implying precision in the keeping of the solar years calendar since lest say the more recent 1000 years?

As opposed to the ancient reckoning of the Jews who dogmatically marked off each and every calendar week (shomer shabbos)...

To be clear...

Is that what you are saying?

asdf
05-19-2010, 08:49 AM
So... the renown infallible author of wiki takes a clearly biblical 360 day year and reckons it to the contemporary (extra-biblical) solar 365.25 day year?

Is that what you are saying?

And are you implying precision in the keeping of the solar years calendar since lest say the more recent 1000 years?

As opposed to the ancient reckoning of the Jews who dogmatically marked off each and every calendar week (shomer shabbos)...

To be clear...

Is that what you are saying?

No, I'm not saying any such thing. I'm simply asking you for more information about your claim, since I've never heard it before, it seems odd to me, and I can't make sense of it based on my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the Bible and of ancient Jewish culture.

I'm sorry if this is common knowledge, but could you walk me through it? Could you demonstrate to me how you came up with a "clearly biblical 360 day year"?

johnd
05-19-2010, 08:19 PM
Prophetic years (360 day years) do not necessarily line up with solar years (which as can be pointed out as recently as the 1700's CE have been inaccurately kept and maintained).

asdf
05-19-2010, 11:22 PM
Prophetic years (360 day years) do not necessarily line up with solar years (which as can be pointed out as recently as the 1700's CE have been inaccurately kept and maintained).

Further down the rabbit hole we go...

Are you now positing yet a third type of year needed to make your calculations work—a Hebrew year, a 'Gentile' year, and a 'prophetic' year?

It's a pretty interesting hypothesis, I must say—but I'm still holding out judgment until I see the evidence laid out.

johnd
05-22-2010, 07:38 PM
The Bible establishes many time tables.

Those who would only be skeptical will never understand or apply them.

The seven day week, for example. Folks like you tried to make it a 10 day week at one time which obviously did not work or did not take. So why 7 days?

God set some of these time tables into universal motion while others not so universal (the years of Jubilee or the Heptade versus the standards decade).

No matter. And your snide comment about rabbit trails reminds me why I flushed you down the ignore hole to begin with... so down you go again to stay swirling ever downward out of my precious time.
http://plus.maths.org/issue25/features/whirlpool/Whirlpool.jpg

asdf
05-22-2010, 11:44 PM
The Bible establishes many time tables.

Those who would only be skeptical will never understand or apply them.

The seven day week, for example. Folks like you tried to make it a 10 day week at one time which obviously did not work or did not take. So why 7 days?

God set some of these time tables into universal motion while others not so universal (the years of Jubilee or the Heptade versus the standards decade).

No matter. And your snide comment about rabbit trails reminds me why I flushed you down the ignore hole to begin with... so down you go again to stay swirling ever downward out of my precious time.


Indeed :rolleyes: — wouldn't want to waste your precious time having to actually think about or provide evidence for your unsubstantiated ***ertions. It's so much easier to just cast me out as mentally deficient or reprobate for daring to question your infallibility.

You have fun with that.

johnd
01-11-2011, 09:24 PM
The mark of the beast is often thought of as some elaborate code identifying each individual it marks. But there is not indication in scripture it will be anything other than a universal symbol like the swastika was under the Nazi regime. It has only to identify the bearer as one who has the mark.

Revelation 13:11-18 (NASB95)
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.
12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.
14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.


Ever give a good look at the so-called Star of David? It is a 666 symbol. Six points, six triangles, with a six sided center.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ig119akG4fc/UYcyRvDSvCI/AAAAAAAAARo/Yy0Qh-1VavI/s1600/star1.gif
By the way it predates David, though it was not a symbol of David, but rather the seal of his son Solomon. This seal of Solomon was used by the first king of Israel to lead the nation into idolatry and paganism.

The symbol was only recently adopted to represent the people of Israel. Jews were branded with this occult symbol by Hitler in the 1930's. And as an act of defiance the Jews adopted it. Similar to the Americans adopting the disparaging by the British during the Revolutionary War "Yanks" or "Yankees."

The occult symbol goes back to the Sumerian era.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xBEt8dkoBsQ/UYczD7HIDJI/AAAAAAAAAR4/WoFTExCb8PQ/s320/Seal-L.jpg




And were not the symbol for Israel before the 1930's. The seven candle menorah was.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2caGvCjXTOQ/UY8JELtEAZI/AAAAAAAACNk/kVCL3bncS4E/s1600/semelm1.jpg

MacG
01-12-2011, 12:08 AM
Didn't the 666 get revised to 616 recently?

MacG

johnd
01-12-2011, 02:39 PM
.....nope.

MacG
01-12-2011, 02:57 PM
.....nope.

Have you seen this:
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134/beasts-real-mark-devalued-to-616

What's your take on it? Should this move to another thread?

MacG

johnd
06-19-2011, 07:35 PM
According to the complete Jewish Bible:

This is where wisdom is needed; those who understand should count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person, and its number is 666

alanmolstad
06-20-2011, 02:16 AM
This is where wisdom is needed; ......

I have yet to find an End Times teacher that fulfilled this requirement of the needed "wisdom"...


All who do Bible Math always end up picking a date, or naming a person that they think the Bible predicts, only to always see their predictions fail...

johnd
06-24-2011, 06:21 PM
I have yet to find an End Times teacher that fulfilled this requirement of the needed "wisdom"...


All who do Bible Math always end up picking a date, or naming a person that they think the Bible predicts, only to always see their predictions fail...

Solomon was the wisest man to live, with understanding greater than anyone.

Revelation 13:18 (KJV)
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


2 of the 4 scriptures that have 666 in it refer to Solomon... builder of the first temple. The Jews today are looking for a messiah who will build the third (actually fourth) temple and establish peace....


Jeremiah 6:14 (KJV)
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.



Solomon (shlomo) is derived from the word for peace Shalom.


Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


That covenant is what we would call the old covenant / old testament and claim to be the promised messiah and claiming Jesus is not the true Messiah.


Another way of arriving at the beast having something to do with the rebuilt temple is in calculating the dates between the destruction of the first two temples in Hebrew years (666).



During this time Christians who refuse to take the mark (who are in fact the real Christians) will be hunted down to near extinction.



That pretty much sums up the criteria of the verse.


Here is wisdom.

Let him that hath understanding

count the number of the beast:

for it is the number of a man;

and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

asdf
06-24-2011, 06:53 PM
Solomon (shlomo) is derived from the word for peace Shalom.

Indeed. But for one to tie it to a particular scripture on the basis of the Shlomo/shalom tie is rather tenuous, IMO.


Another way of arriving at the beast having something to do with the rebuilt temple is in calculating the dates between the destruction of the first two temples in Hebrew years (666).

Which, of course, you have not established, beyond a bit of bluster on three different calendars, for which you have not provided substantiation.

alanmolstad
06-24-2011, 07:05 PM
Let me say this again to be very clear...


All who do "Bible math" fail....

Oh they think they have the secret to understanding the 666 number, of the 70 weeks verse...but in the end, they FAIL



Mostly what you find is that the guy doing all the Bible math has a thing against the Jews, or the Catholics, or Obama, or Henry Kissinger and he works the numbers so that end up pointing to the Jews or Catholics as being the beast, or the false Christ predicted by the Bible.

johnd
09-11-2011, 09:01 PM
Let me say this again to be very clear...


All who do "Bible math" fail....

Oh they think they have the secret to understanding the 666 number, of the 70 weeks verse...but in the end, they FAIL



Mostly what you find is that the guy doing all the Bible math has a thing against the Jews, or the Catholics, or Obama, or Henry Kissinger and he works the numbers so that end up pointing to the Jews or Catholics as being the beast, or the false Christ predicted by the Bible.

Again...

{sigh}

The Bible math is not a failure. the wisdom is to clue us in on Solomon builder of the first temple destroyed on Tisha b'Av 586 BCE and the second destroyed on Tisha b'Av 70CE on the Hebrew calendar 666 years apart to the day.

How is that a failure?

And about setting dates... I have not set one. I am showing how the Bible will in studies about Daniel 12:11-12 but that it will not be clear to humanity until the 70th Week of Daniel is half over when the rebuilt temple sacrifices will be abated.

Jesus said we are to understand the times and the seasons even if we cannot know the dates.

johnd
09-11-2011, 09:03 PM
Vincent (Starry Starry Night) Lyrics
Starry starry night, paint your palette blue and grey
Look out on a summer's day with eyes that know the darkness in my soul
Shadows on the hills, sketch the trees and the daffodils
Catch the breeze and the winter chills, in colors on the snowy linen land

Now I understand what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for you sanity How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they did not know how, perhaps they'll listen now

Starry starry night, flaming flowers that brightly blaze
Swirling clouds in violet haze reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue
Colors changing hue, morning fields of amber grain
Weathered faces lined in pain are soothed beneath the artist's loving hand

Now I understand what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for you sanity How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they did not know how, perhaps they'll listen now

For they could not love you, but still your love was true
And when no hope was left in sight, on that starry starry night
You took your life as lovers often do,
But I could have told you, Vincent,
This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you

Starry, starry night, portraits hung in empty halls
Frameless heads on nameless walls with eyes that watch the world and can't forget.
Like the stranger that you've met, the ragged man in ragged clothes
The silver thorn of bloody rose, lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me
How you suffered for you sanity How you tried to set them free
They would not listen they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will.

asdf
09-11-2011, 09:18 PM
Further down the rabbit hole we go...

Are you now positing yet a third type of year needed to make your calculations work—a Hebrew year, a 'Gentile' year, and a 'prophetic' year?

It's a pretty interesting hypothesis, I must say—but I'm still holding out judgment until I see the evidence laid out.

This is a bump.

johnd
10-12-2011, 06:39 PM
Let me say this again to be very clear...


All who do "Bible math" fail....

Oh they think they have the secret to understanding the 666 number, of the 70 weeks verse...but in the end, they FAIL



Mostly what you find is that the guy doing all the Bible math has a thing against the Jews, or the Catholics, or Obama, or Henry Kissinger and he works the numbers so that end up pointing to the Jews or Catholics as being the beast, or the false Christ predicted by the Bible.

Again I state that seeking the solution to the conditions set forth in Revelation 13:18 internally (in the Bible itself) is the only way to interpret the verse.

If we seek 666 the way we sought the Messiah in scripture we'd find all the signs point to a Jewish Temple builder in the last time who will renege on his promise to affirm the Mosaic covenant to the many and in the middle of the 70th Week put an end to the sacrifices there. Then and only then will we even know how far into the 70th Week man has come or when it began. The first two temples were destroyed 666 Hebrew / Prophetic years apart. There's your calculation, the wisdom (Solomon whose 666 talents of gold wage is two of the only four mentions of 666 in scripture).

alanmolstad
10-12-2011, 08:15 PM
Again...

{sigh}

The Bible math is not a failure.
All people that attempt to do "Bible math" will fail!

Oh they pat themselves on the back for being able to screw with the numbers to make things work out for stuff in the past...LOL

Oh they love to say that added up this number to that number,then subtracted the number of hairs on the 2nd knuckle of their left hand, then added the number of licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll and ended up with the date for the start of WW2.

It means NOTHING!

You give me any date and i bet i can find ways to add up different verses in the Bible to come up with any date you want to pick.

So Bible Math of the past is meaningless.

The Bible Math that i speak of is where people try to add up numbers and get to some type of date in the future.

The name "Miller" comes to mind.

This is why i never get mixed up in End Time conversations.
The reason is, that one thing leads to another, and before you know it you hear someone make the claim that they have 'unlocked" the meaning of the End Times verses, and by doing some math have come up for the date of the end of the world.

Sooner or later it always happens, and it always ends in FAIL

johnd
08-02-2012, 08:48 PM
It means NOTHING!



...to you. I respect your ability to choose.

I am quite frustrated with your lack of respect for others to choose to believe what is in the Bible...

The 360 day year,
The Jewish calendar dates the two temples were destroyed
The use of simple math to come up with this biblical clue.

I mean, any one can say what you said and offer no proof or evidence to the contrary of what I stated. None. You just yammered on about math and failure.

Yes men have failed with math they misinterpreted.... that is not proof I did.

Again... 665.666666666667 is puhretty close to the subject at hand would you not agree?

alanmolstad
08-03-2012, 02:10 AM
Again... 665.666666666667 is puhretty close to the subject at hand would you not agree?no its pointless and meaningless...

You can find ways to come up with any number you want as long as you know in advance what number you seek to end up at.

There are books connecting the layout of the Pyramids in Egypt and stars in the sky....or with different craters on the moon....or with , etc, etc, etc...

The trick is that as long as you know the outcome design (or the final number you seek to end up with) you can look around and find things to add up or point to that can get you the final result you are seeking to prove.

If you want to prove that the Bible predicts the day the Beatles came out with their WHITE album, Im sure that you can add up some verses, or some statements about this or that made in the Bible, subtract the number of times something else appears, and end up with the final date you were seeking from the start..

All you have to know a head of time is what day or number you want to end up at (1968) and you will know when you are done doing the Bible math....LOL:D
So you keep dreaming up ways to do Bible Math until you get to the magic number you knew in advance as being 1968, and and when your Bible Math gets you to that magic number you STOP!.....

But lets say you are sincere.

Lets say that you want to end up with some real "proof" that your Bible math system is correct.

Lets also say you seek to make a good-faith effort to show you are correct.

In that case,if you really want to know if your own Bible Math is truly something correctly drawn from the bible?...then try to predict something you dont know the final date for!

Thats how you put your own Bible Math to the test!

Predict something in the as-yet unknown future and then you have proved your system.
You want proof, and there's the way to get it.

Now, many guys do this too as we have seen over the years.
Lots of guys add up all kinds of numbers in the bible to come up with the date for the return of Christ, or the date of the Anti-Christ, etc.

What we always see is the same result of doing such future bible math.
They all FAIL.

They always predict a date in the near-future based on their 100% guaranteed Bible Math system, and in the end their predicted date will always Fail.
They always fail,

and they always end up with egg on their faces.

Some learn their lessons (Chuck Smith).

But a lot of other guys just look at the failure and rather than learn the lesson from it, they turn around and believe that the "Bible Math concept" was correct, but the numbers used were the only error.

Some guys believe that they have discovered the true way to add up the correct numbers to come up with the correct date...

Thus, the next Harold Camping is always getting warmed up in the Bible Math on-deck circle.

asdf
08-03-2012, 05:34 PM
Again... 665.666666666667 is puhretty close to the subject at hand would you not agree?

Not even slightly—for all the reasons alanmolstad articulated, as well as your failure to even bother to try to substantiate your calculations.


Further down the rabbit hole we go...

Are you now positing yet a third type of year needed to make your calculations work—a Hebrew year, a 'Gentile' year, and a 'prophetic' year?

It's a pretty interesting hypothesis, I must say—but I'm still holding out judgment until I see the evidence laid out.

alanmolstad
08-04-2012, 05:07 AM
Predict something in the as-yet unknown future and then you have proved your system.


You want proof, and there's the way to get it.

.....
What I am talking about in the above quote is that there is a very real way to put your numbering systems to the test.
It is a way that has worked over and over for a long-long time.

What we do is take whatever numbering system you are promoting, be it a way to add up numbers that appear in the Bible, or add up Text locations, or use a dart board and a blind dart-tossing monkey, and see if under that system you can predict a single future date?

My point is that anyone can take a known date in history and find ways to end up at that date by doing Bible math.

As long as you know the answer at the start you can find many easy means to arrive at that answer.

But finding a result where you dont already know the answer?....Ahh that's different!


This is why we know that many religious prophets of the past are now believed to be "False Prophets", because their predictions did not come to p***.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have a False Prophet in their founder based on the past that things he predicted did not come to p***.

The Mormons too.

Even Newton!

In fact, any person that teaches their Bible Math can come up with a date for a future events needs to be put to the test like this so that we all can see if they know what they are talking about, or are just pulling dates out of their backside?

alanmolstad
01-21-2013, 04:58 AM
365.25 days = 1 year Gentile
360 days = 1 year Jewish

365.25 X 656 ÷ 360 = 665.666666 (solved as precisely 666 because the dates are exact).


This is one of the reasons I never do Bible Math....the simple fact is that you can work the numbers in such a manner as to end up with any date you want....

johnd
02-23-2013, 09:37 PM
You use circular reasoning and cynicism to validate your argument. Again, believe what you jolly well want to. But the fact remains that the ancient Hebrew calendar was based on the lunar cycle and the prophecies of the 70 Weeks of Daniel and this dating when the two temples were destroyed are based on 360 day years. The time between Tisha b'Av 586 BCE and Tisha b'Av 70 CE was 656 Solar years. 656 X 365.25 = 239604 days. Divide that number of days by the 360 day year Hebrew (prophetic) calendar year and you get the number 665.5666666666666.

Don't believe it, for all I care.

Defy your own calculator or anything else you wish.

But it doesn't change the facts that are facts.

alanmolstad
02-23-2013, 10:28 PM
What people do is that they start with the final answer they want to come to....in this case it's 666 or whatever...but as 666 is a well known fancy number, so that is what a lot of guys start with.

Once you know the final answer you want to end up at, the rest is easy....

All you have to do then is start to add up the numbers, and using a 'base 10" way of thinking, (or whatever base will get you the answer 666), just keep doing math until the sum total gets you to the answer you knew from the start...

and then?...

and then stop doing any more math...


QUESTION: What would be a way to prove you actually are doing correct Bible math?

ANSWER: That's easy, come up with an answer you don't know from the start.
predict a date that comes true and you have proved your math is correct.

But attempting to prove that you know how to do Bible math by simply adding numbers until you get to a final answer you knew from the start just is silly....proves nothing...and tends to be a self-delusion

alanmolstad
02-24-2013, 09:21 AM
Now, really all this is harmless untill a guy starts to think that they have "unlocked" the key to understanding the bible's numbers.
At that point it can start to become a little too tempting to think that not only can you find the correct numbers to show how dates in the past had to happen when they did, but based on this same type of Bible Math you can also make predictions about future events.

It can happen to even a very serious Bible student that has no intention of being a person that gets known for predictions, but what happens is that they become so sure that they know how the Bible is arriving at it's dates that the same system leads them down the road to making future predictions.

Their Bible Math is not just becoming an interesting 'guess" to them, but to them it soon becomes seen as "FACT"... they look at the conclusions they come to about their system of adding up numbers and say "You cant argue with it" and that there is - "No way around it" ...

The Jehovah's Witnesses were started out by a guy who worked the Bible's numbers into predicting an upcoming date where Christ would return.

The Mormons also have a history where their founder made predictions.

But it's not only non-Christians that are known for getting swept up in the idea that their success at doing Bible Math to support the dates things happened in the past can be turned into a way to seek the dates for future events , for Christians also fall into this trap.

Take the case of respected Christian radio preacher Chuck Smith.
I was a daily listener to Chuck Smith on the radio when working out of town alone and on the road.
He had a very easy to listen to voice, and his teachings were always very much bible-backed.

Then one day Im digging in the backyard of my house listening to Chuck on the radio when he is talking about how the date for this or that past event ( think it was the date of the birth of Christ) was based on this or that way of adding up the numbers, and then he went and started to talk about the return of Christ in 4 years.

I was stunned....

"Did he just say what I think he did?" I asked myself....

Chuck Smith went on to say in that show that, based on the Bible's numbers that predicted the correct date for the birth of christ that these same means of adding numbers also can be seen to just as correctly predict that Christ had to return in 4 years.

And if Christ did not return then then Chuck said that he did not see how any of the Bible's numbers could be used in any future ways to arrive at any conclusions.....

for the record that was about 20+ years ago and Christ did not return as Chuck's math predicted.


others swept up in their own clever Bible math are:

Hippolytus of Rome, Sextus Julius Afric****, Irenaeus all predicted Jesus would return in the year 500. One prediction was based on the dimensions of Noah's ark.

Gregory of Tours Calculated the End occurring between 799 and 806.

Pope Innocent III predicted that the world would end 666 years after the rise of Islam.

Martin Luther predicted the end of the world would occur no later than 1600.

Christopher Columbus claimed that the world was created in 5343 BCE, and would last 7000 years. ***uming no year zero, that means the end would come in 1658.

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church, wrote that Revelation 12:14 referred to the years 1058–1836, "when Christ should come".

The Adventists , After Christ did not return on March 21, 1844, the Millerites then revised William Miller's prediction to October 22, 1844, claiming to have miscalculated Scripture. The realization that the predictions were incorrect resulted in the Great Disappointment.

Herbert W. Armstrong, the founder of the Worldwide Church of God told members of his church that the Rapture was to take place in 1936, and that only they would saved. After the prophecy failed, he changed the date three more times.

and....

Charles Manson used Bible Math in his predicted that an apocalyptic race war would occur in 1969 and ordered the Tate-*****nca murders in an attempt to bring it about.

gabby
01-08-2014, 08:17 AM
Don't let the ***le mislead you. This is not about true Messianic Prophecy versus false prophecies about the Messiah. This is about two types of prophecy:


The True Messiah
The False Messiah

There aren't as many prophecies about the ultimate false messiah as there are about the true Messiah, Jesus. But there are many prophecies about the false messiah. And as the prophecies about the true Messiah are authenticators and identifiers of him, so are the prophecies about the false messiah about him.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-11
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:17-25
17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.
19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

Revelation 20:1-3
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Remember Satan personally entered (possessed) Judas:

Luke 22:3
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.

John 13:26-27
26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

It was go for broke defeat the Son of God moment ensuring his defeat on the cross, so the devil pulled out all the plugs to personally enter a human being (which apparently is what imprisons fallen angels Jude 6 to the fate of that human host)


Isaiah 14
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, ‘Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.’
9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.

Who's do say that "the temple of God" spoken of in 2nd Thess. 2 is not a reference to the Church?

johnd
02-02-2014, 11:49 PM
The failed math comes from adding to or taking away from scriptures.

The Bible warns in all three major divisions (Law, Prophets, Writings) not to do so... but outside the Bible people go especially with 666.

The Bible also says test with scripture all things.

Do a search yourself in the Bible for 666.

And as far as Jew bashing or Catholic bashing I have only ever stated the truth.

Tell me, who else but a Jew would the Jewish people follow as the messiah?
John 5:39-40 (NIV)
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.


John 5:43 (NIV)
43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.
"if" ean in the Greek is better translated "though". The scripture prophesied the true Messiah would come in the name of his father (which Jesus did). Though he comes in his own name him (the false messiah) they (the Jews) would accept.

Tell me why would Jesus warn of a time of flight that one would even consider sabbath law?


Matthew 24:20 (NIV)
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.


Sabbath law has never taken precedent over fight or flight in all Jewish history. Consider the campaign at Jericho. 7 days they marched, on the sabbath day they marched 7 times the wall fell and the battle ensued,

So why would Jesus even say such a thing?

Winter is obvious enough (just ask those stranded in airports and shelters in the recent cold storms). But the sabbath?

It is because the things that Jesus warns believers about the Jews who reject him but accept the false messiah will have no problem with that false messiah ascending to the temple claiming to be God.

And they will enforce sabbath law in the Holy Land.

So, who but a Jew will the Jewish people accept ascending to their venerated temple and even remotely consider the claim to be God incarnate? A Pope? A Protestant? A Muslim? Justin Bieber? Who???

I await your response oh naysayer with no scriptural backing.

johnd
02-02-2014, 11:57 PM
Who's to say that "the temple of God" spoken of in 2nd Thess. 2 is not a reference to the Church?

God.

If it is truly referring to the Temple of God meaning the Church mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3:16, then God has a real problem sharing his temple with the devil incarnate.

Me thinks thou doth bamboozle thyself with preterist doctrine.

You are so convinced by preterism that the Jewish temple will never be rebuilt that every reference to a temple must be symbolic.

Proof that is what the Apostle Paul is referring to then becomes your problem. And as I said, God does not share his Church temple with anyone.

1 John 4:4 (NIV)
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

Except when the devil is visiting...

Come on!

johnd
02-03-2014, 12:01 AM
What people do is that they start with the final answer they want to come to....in this case it's 666 or whatever...but as 666 is a well known fancy number, so that is what a lot of guys start with.

Once you know the final answer you want to end up at, the rest is easy....

All you have to do then is start to add up the numbers, and using a 'base 10" way of thinking, (or whatever base will get you the answer 666), just keep doing math until the sum total gets you to the answer you knew from the start...

and then?...

and then stop doing any more math...


QUESTION: What would be a way to prove you actually are doing correct Bible math?

ANSWER: That's easy, come up with an answer you don't know from the start.
predict a date that comes true and you have proved your math is correct.

But attempting to prove that you know how to do Bible math by simply adding numbers until you get to a final answer you knew from the start just is silly....proves nothing...and tends to be a self-delusion

I am rusty on this one but Chuck Missler used the 2520 year differences (to the day as I recall) for the waves of occupation for the Jews in the Old Testament (by Nebuchadnezzar) and the date the Jewish nation was reestablished and the date that temple mount was captured by Moshe Dayan in 1967...

Seems that alone would put a plug in your argument.

johnd
02-03-2014, 12:11 AM
Here's a date setting the Bible way:

Daniel 12:11-12 (NIV)
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

1290 days from the end of time the temple sacrifice will be abated. Meaning there will be Jewish temple sacrifices up to 1290 days from the end. Meaning there will be a Jewish temple yet to be built in the future.

The rapture will happen 1335 days into the 70th Week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27).


Mark 13:32 (NIV)
32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Still true.

No one will know when the 70th Week of Daniel began until the day the temple sacrifices are abated (day 1230). And the Church will be so far in hiding to survive the news about the beast ascending to the temple to desecrate it will not reach them with any certainty of dates... but we are all charged to know the seasons of the nearness of these things aren't we!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_I-wAljcCNo/UYL_oXEtIbI/AAAAAAAAAQw/YJ_L2C-X170/s1600/70x7.jpg

alanmolstad
02-03-2014, 12:37 AM
predict of future unknown?....
never happens....

johnd
02-03-2014, 01:15 AM
yuh huh...

alanmolstad
02-03-2014, 01:51 AM
predict of future unknown?....
never happens....
see what im talking about is that all the Christian end times teachers that think that have "unlocked" the secret Bible math so that they can know a date, never are proved correct later.

At best all that can happen is like what the 7th day Adventists did, where a predicted date failed to appear, and then rather than admitting their math was all wrong, they came out with a new way to have the failed date look like it was a true date, "Just invisible" to human eyes.

"God did return, but invisibly"
or...
"God moved from one apartment in heaven to another"

But I just consider all that kind of stuff to be a bit silly...:)

The other thing that I see happen when people pick a date in the future and that day comes , is that the false Prophet will then find anything that might have happened on or near the date, and say that "that event" is what was predicted...

So in other words, it would be to predict that the next Monday something important in God's time table would happen, and then on the next Tuesday they would open up the newspaper and search for any story in the news of the day before that they can then point to and say "There it happened just as I predicted!"


So that is the type of stuff i see when i study the many false Prophets that have risen up and made predictions based on their own private bible math.



As I have already listed in a post on this topic, the history of the world is filled with the names of people and churches that fell in love with the idea that there was a secret way to add up numbers to make a prediction for the day of the lord's return.

And everyone who does their own Bible math and makes a prediction, is later proven to be a false prophet.

This is the start of a new year as i write this, and Im sure before too long we may yet again hear that some book in the bookstore has a new date for the return...
There is always a new writer that is convinced that the world needs to hear his version of the "88 Reasons Why Christ Will Return In 1988"

and then later, they come out with the next version ,,,,,and such books do tend to sell.

There seems to be this market for this type of stuff....and you would think that by now, after so many people have proven so clearly that you simply cant rely on predictions made with bible math that people would be wise to this foolishness......but i see that is not true...

alanmolstad
03-03-2014, 10:55 AM
Once again, all who try to do Bible math end up FAIL......

oh they love to point out to us how other people were able to use the Bible's numbers to come up with a date in the past, and then they try to use this as a justification for their own use of Bible math to come up with their own set of results...
"

But they all fail!

They all fail....
The most they can do is when they are shown to be wrong to switch things around like the 7th Day'ers did so as to put a better "spin" on their false dates.

But predict a date in the future?....not a chance.

alanmolstad
07-06-2014, 06:04 AM
Doing Bible Math = the open door to Fail......

alanmolstad
03-15-2017, 03:01 PM
while talking about the topic of Jewish temples....


I have been looking and researching the floor plan of the common artwork found in our study bibles about what the Jewish temple area looked like at the time of Christ.

I have come to the conclusion that most all the artwork that show how buildings were setting, and their location are in error.

The main trouble I have is the common way the Roman barracks are shoved up into one little corner of the temple mount.

I dont believe that is correct at all.

I believe that the Roman guard and all the Roman officials and all the troops would have required a monster size area, that would be far, far greater than the area of the temple.

This means that almost everything I see displayed about where the temple was and how it was sitting are likely in error.

alanmolstad
03-17-2017, 05:35 AM
so to sum up my views on the whole "Bible Math" issue.


I believe that every single person that has ever attempted to use the text of the Bible to add up numbers to arrive at a date for the return of Christ or the ending of the world are in error.

They all fail.

The people that try to defend the use of Bible Math always try to point to how a date was predicted in the past, and then slide their own date setting underneath that so that it looks like their own ways to do Bible math are just as true.

But they all fail.
They fail because they cant actually do Bible math.

What they are doing is allowing their imagination to rule their ability to reason correctly.

They want to believe they have "unlocked" a way to do Bible math so much that they just lose all logic.