Are you assured of salvation? [Archive] - Walter Martin Ministries Forum

tealblue

10-07-2008, 01:31 AM

jean

10-07-2008, 10:20 PM

tealblue

10-08-2008, 04:23 AM

I just think the once saved always saved additude is dangerous. And unbiblical to say the least. Even to say it was to be totally presumptious about it.

Bob Carabbio

10-11-2008, 04:10 PM

It's intrinsic -

We are saved by our FAITH in the shed blood of Jesus - the provision of God for the remission of our sin.

IF we have FAITH - (not "belief", "hope", or "doctrinal ***urance" which can give NO security) - then we also possess the ESTABLISHED REALITY of our salvation, - the "substance of it", in fact!!! and being in possession of the Substance and the Evidence of our salvation, then we can confidently claim that we HAVE salvation.

Case closed.

If we don't HAVE "faith" in our Savior (which is the ONLY basis for claiming salvation to begin with) - then on what grounds would we have any reason to think we're saved at all????

I think Paul knew of the "issues" that could effect His state of salvation, and pointed 'em out for us. BUT that he had TOTAL CONFIDENCE in the REALITY of his own salvation is beyond question. It's a FALSE teaching (and a horrendously DANGEROUS one) that we have to "wonder" whether we "made the cut" or not. "Faith" isn't even on the radar with that mindset!!!!

Leslie

10-11-2008, 07:12 PM

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." - 2 Peter 2:20-22 - ESV

I think this Scripture shows that a person can lose his faith and backslide back into his sins and become filfthy once again. I don't believe that a person in this state will go to heaven because,

"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14 - ESV

"But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Revelation 21:27 - ESV

"The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" - Revelation 3:5-6

In short, I don't think one can sin and go to heaven. I think if you sin you need to repent over it or you could be in danger of losing your soul. I don't believe in "once saved, always saved" because I've known too many so-called christians who abused that and did all sorts of ungodly things and said that they were still saved. It's always left a bad taste in my mouth.

tealblue

10-13-2008, 01:20 AM

Bob Carabbio

10-14-2008, 09:33 PM

Bob Carabbio

10-14-2008, 09:34 PM

Agreed - OSAS isn't a Biblical teaching.

Equally unBiblical is the old "holiness" - "one sin and you're OUT" teaching.

Leslie

10-14-2008, 09:54 PM

So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?

disciple

10-15-2008, 09:03 AM

So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?

Hi Leslie,
I think when people hear the phrase "once saved, always saved", especially people who are in religious systems that tend to lean towards legalisim, they
get the idea that some Christians believe that once they are born again they can sin anytime they want with no consequences. Of course that is not true. The idea of being always saved in my point of view comes from the truth of the scriptures. Jesus died for all my sin, past, present and future. When I accept the truth of the Gospel, admit my sin, turn from it and trust Him as Savior I am saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is what if I sin? Does the indwelling Holy Spirit leave each time I sin? No I have a Mediator who interceedes for me, when I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrightousness. Faithful and just means to me that if I sin and then get hit with a car before I confess, yes I will go to heaven. God looks at a man's heart, his intent and what he places his trust in, not a specific formula. Of course when we sin we are to admit it and repent but that is not what saves us it is grace that saves and keeps one saved.

Leslie

10-15-2008, 10:31 AM

Hi Leslie,
I think when people hear the phrase "once saved, always saved", especially people who are in religious systems that tend to lean towards legalisim, they
get the idea that some Christians believe that once they are born again they can sin anytime they want with no consequences. Of course that is not true. The idea of being always saved in my point of view comes from the truth of the scriptures. Jesus died for all my sin, past, present and future. When I accept the truth of the Gospel, admit my sin, turn from it and trust Him as Savior I am saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Now the problem is what if I sin? Does the indwelling Holy Spirit leave each time I sin? No I have a Mediator who interceedes for me, when I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive my sin and cleanse me of all unrightousness. Faithful and just means to me that if I sin and then get hit with a car before I confess, yes I will go to heaven. God looks at a man's heart, his intent and what he places his trust in, not a specific formula. Of course when we sin we are to admit it and repent but that is not what saves us it is grace that saves and keeps one saved.

So I can die in the very act of adultery, and I'll still go to heaven?

disciple

10-15-2008, 12:17 PM

So I can die in the very act of adultery, and I'll still go to heaven?

Hello again Leslie,
Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments", and I believe this to be true but it is not keeping the commandments or the the confessing of the transgressions which imparts salvation, it is God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of Jesus Christ our life styles will not be the same as those who reject Him, but Christians can also stumble, become deceived and act and react in a sinful manner. Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed? My belief is that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners and His offer of eternal life had no hidden clauses or tricky fine print. To answer you question, if you are a Christian and you stumble wheather it is adultry or dishonoring your parents and die before confessing I believe you will still have eternal life because Jesus paid the debt for your sin. If you claim to be a Christian and your plan is to lead a sinful life because you believe you have a p*** to sin, then you are in trouble. God sees the heart, and knows who are His own. Is the criteria for eternal life that you must confess every sin before death?

Trinity

10-15-2008, 12:51 PM

Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed?

This is why we the Catholics and the Jews, we believe into a form of purgatory. :p

Trinity

Leslie

10-15-2008, 01:01 PM

Hello again Leslie,
Jesus said, "if you love me you will keep my commandments", and I believe this to be true but it is not keeping the commandments or the the confessing of the transgressions which imparts salvation, it is God's grace and faith in Jesus Christ. If we are followers of Jesus Christ our life styles will not be the same as those who reject Him, but Christians can also stumble, become deceived and act and react in a sinful manner. Your question was about adultry, what about if you lie in a stressful situation, fight with your neighbor, curse at a driver who cuts you off, look with lust at someone or goof off at work for 20 minutes while your being paid to work(stealing) and you die before you confess any of these things? What person can ever be sure they have confessed every sin they have ever committed? My belief is that Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners and His offer of eternal life had no hidden clauses or tricky fine print. To answer you question, if you are a Christian and you stumble wheather it is adultry or dishonoring your parents and die before confessing I believe you will still have eternal life because Jesus paid the debt for your sin. If you claim to be a Christian and your plan is to lead a sinful life because you believe you have a p*** to sin, then you are in trouble. God sees the heart, and knows who are His own. Is the criteria for eternal life that you must confess every sin before death?

Maybe I've just had bad experiences with people who believed in Eternal Security and used it as an excuse to sin. I don't know, but I still don't believe you can live in sin and go to heaven, and I still believe that a person can fall from grace by returning to sin and not repenting of it.

tealblue

10-16-2008, 02:27 AM

Well, let's see about Paul -

12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

seems to me that Paul was pretty confident of his salvation, y'all. I nderstand that the Catholics misrepresent the Bible and try to convince you that you can't know, but since salvation is by FAITH, and that faith is the SUBSTANCE of your salvation - if you DON'T KNOW whether you're saved - then maybe you aren't saved at all.

I know for sure - have for decades!!

This says nothing about the possability of being cut off as Paul warns us. I think paul was pretty clear of the possability of it. As far as being saved by faith alone, the word faith alone is only said once in the entire new testement and it says we ARE NOT saved by faith alone. The bible talks of salvation in three terms: Am saved, being saved, and have been saved. Depends on what point of reference the writer is refering to. a paul points out that salvation is a race and those who endure till the end will be saved.

tealblue

10-16-2008, 02:33 AM

Maybe I've just had bad experiences with people who believed in Eternal Security and used it as an excuse to sin. I don't know, but I still don't believe you can live in sin and go to heaven, and I still believe that a person can fall from grace by returning to sin and not repenting of it.

This brings up another question. If somebody makes a one time profession of faith and you are supposely born again. Why does the born agian effect only take for some people. Some leave the faith and people will say well they were never saved in the first place. At the time the person was honest in their profession but for some reason it didn't work.

Leslie

10-16-2008, 06:28 AM

This brings up another question. If somebody makes a one time profession of faith and you are supposely born again. Why does the born agian effect only take for some people. Some leave the faith and people will say well they were never saved in the first place. At the time the person was honest in their profession but for some reason it didn't work.

Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

Trinity

10-16-2008, 12:28 PM

"Human salvation demands the divine disclosure of truths surp***ing reason."---Saint Thomas Aquinas

We are saved by faith, however, God has many patterns to guide someone to salvation. The truth about ourselves is a truth that is surp***ing our reason. There are many reasonable men that do not know much about themselves. Spiritual blindness is the first truth disclosed by God, and this is just the beginning. There is more truths that are waiting for us after the disclosure of this first truth. Some of those truths can be painful, others are a real bliss.

Salvation is something that is more complicated than a simple prayer of repentance during an evangelical rally. This is more than words.

Also, keep in mind that God is patient with the humankind in the same way he is patient with each of us. Do not always expect to be brutalized by him. Anyway, during our spiritual pilgrimage during this present life. By saying this, I do not want to say that life is not testing us. Bad things happen to good people.

2Timothy 2:13 If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Salvation is an 'amazing race'. Run the race and do not resign or be disqualified. At the end, at the last pit stop, there will be more than a million dollars. :)

Jesus has never said that salvation is something that is easy. Sometimes that would request great sacrifices. Obedience and the pursue of new values.

There is many traps that we should avoid. Salvation can be compared at the equilibrium in a chess game. This is something we should always maintain if we do not want to fall in a trap. Play your life wisely.

Trinity

Leslie

10-16-2008, 04:55 PM

I don't think that salvation is too terribly complicated personally. Repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, that is what the Scripture says. Living a holy and righteous life afterward is just you obeying God. Naturally we cannot do it with our own strength, but as Phillipians 4:13 says, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

Bob Carabbio

10-16-2008, 08:56 PM

Absolutely not -

I DID believe/teach OSAS for a while until I realized the "OSAS" is of no interest to the Christian who's "pressing in" to God, taking HIS yoke upon them, and LEARNING of him, being obedient to the leadings of the Lord, and resting in HIS salvation.

OSAS is VERY important to folks who try to define the SMALLEST amount of attention they have to pay to God in order to keep their "fire Insurance" current.

Serious Christians KNOW they're O.K. because of their relationship with Father through the blood of His Son.

God's NOT up there just LOOKING for an excuse to consign us to hell - and it's one's faith on the provision of Jesus (not our "belief" in it - devils "believe" - no salvation there, y'all). And SINCE you "Faith" flows from your relationship with HIM, then if you BREAK that relationship - your faith will begin to fade - and become the MEMORY of having had saving faith. I'd be foolish to take a chance on the "memory of having had faith" being salvific.

There's no such thing as "Purgatorial sanctification", of course - that's only a pagan idea adapted by the Roman Church early in the game, which leads folks to believe that there'll be a "Second chance" after they die. But it's an EMPTY hope, and has no Biblical basis whatsoever (although the Catholic do claim that it does - my favorite is Mat 12:

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The upside down reasoning form silence in this one is exquisite:

"whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

i.e. there's a sin that WILL NOT be forgiven in the "world to come" - so by extrapolation the an***hetical case must also exist: - there MUST be sins that WILL be forgiven in the "World to come" VIOLA!!!! Purgatory!!!

Bob Carabbio

10-16-2008, 09:04 PM

So then deal with 1 Cor 3:

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It's one of your "Purgatory" proof texts.

Your reference to the James text is a common mistake - since James talks about the NATURE of "saving faith" - i.e. if what YOU call "faith" produces NOTHING in terms of "good works" - that it's NOT faith at all, and won't save you.

There are plenty of OTHER Biblical p***ages (Many in Romans) that make it clear that salvation is by FAITH, and the WORKS do not contribute to it in any way. That's been true singe Genesis.

tealblue

10-17-2008, 03:27 AM

So what do you do with the 100's of other p***ages like the sermon on the mount where jesus says unless you do the will of the father you will not get in or of jesus's words to the young rich ruler to obey his fathers comandments to obtain eternal life? You can't ignore these p***ages and parablels that plainly talk about the direct result of a disobediant lifestlye which is hell. As far as pugatory goes its never been taught as a second chance. The jews belived in purgatory. Its taught as a final purification after death provided one dies in christs eternal friendship.

Leslie

10-17-2008, 06:07 AM

As a protestant, I do not believe in purgatory. I do think that it, combined with indulgences makes for one of the best money raising ideas ever thought of though:D. As our friend, John Tatzel once sung "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."

The problem with appealing to Judaism for evidence of purgatory is that the concept is no where found in any of the Old Testament Scriptures. One of the sources for the doctrine is found in II Maccabees, which is strange because if memory serves me the dead jews they prayed for were idolators, which under Catholic doctrine would be a mortal sin and I don't think people who commit mortal sins go to purgatory.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadduecees for adding to the Scriptures with their oral teachings and traditions. He said that they had made the command of God void by the traditions of men. Sadly, I think the same thing has happened with our estranged Catholic bretheren.

Trinity

10-17-2008, 09:21 AM

There's no such thing as "Purgatorial sanctification", of course - that's only a pagan idea adapted by the Roman Church early in the game, which leads folks to believe that there'll be a "Second chance" after they die.

Sorry, but this concept was part of the Jewish theology. Also, that was mentioned in the Jewish literature two hundred years BC.

Catholicism had borrowed a lot from the Judaic roots. Purgatory is only one element of the Judaic tradition.

Trinity

tealblue

10-20-2008, 03:15 AM

Well honestly, I've always found that to be a cop out. Just to tell a little bit about myself. I got saved around 10 or 11 after I heard a fiery sermon from a visiting preacher. His sermon was about people reaching a corner that they might not can ever return from. His point was that you should accept Christ NOW before its too late and that you shouldn't take for granted the opportunity to be saved. I DID repent of my sins, at my house with my mother praying with me. I didn't want to go to hell, I wanted jesus to save me from that aweful fate. For a few years I was a good Christian, I read my little Bible, went to church, prayed etc. When I got into my teenage years I did less of that and got cold in my faith. I stopped reading my Bible as much, didn't pray as often and only went to church on sunday mornings. And sadly, I did things that I know would have sent me to hell for sure.

When I hit 18-19 I returned to Christ, this time I sought the Lord more seriously and got Sanctified, and later, in my room all by myself praying I recieved the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

So I fully believe that I backslide and if I would have died in that state I would have went to hell and deserved it. I just thank the Lord that he had mercy on me and allowed me to come back to him. Just saying "well you were never truly saved the first time" doesn't cut it for me, I know what I recieved the first time. I know that I was saved the first time.

If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

tealblue

10-20-2008, 03:29 AM

Leslie

10-20-2008, 08:00 AM

If you say you were saved at 10 then backslid where you say you were for sure hell bound then you wern't really saved at 10. If you were truly "saved" then you are saved. Thats why the whole idea of being saved at some point in ones life makes no sense because until the end and one is in the grace of God then nothing is certain.

By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

Trinity

10-20-2008, 11:26 AM

Leslie: As a protestant, I do not believe in purgatory.

And I respect this. This is a part of the Catholic eschatology. Our eschatological themes are death, the last judgment, purgatory, resurrection, eternal life, heaven and hell.

I do think that it, combined with indulgences makes for one of the best money raising ideas ever thought of though:D. As our friend, John Tatzel once sung "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs."

I agree that some people in my Church had abused believers with the embellishment of this doctrine. The sin of simony was not only present among catholics but also into the protestantism, in other forms. Even in our days, american televangelists are not better men than some bishops in the Middle Age. Unfortunately, there was some people who misused their authority in both camps.

The Vatican II Council prohibited the sale of indulgences but allowed free-will offerings.

The problem with appealing to Judaism for evidence of purgatory is that the concept is no where found in any of the Old Testament Scriptures. One of the sources for the doctrine is found in II Maccabees, which is strange because if memory serves me the dead jews they prayed for were idolators, which under Catholic doctrine would be a mortal sin and I don't think people who commit mortal sins go to purgatory.

Deuterocanonical books were Scriptures until Martin Luther. He also rejected some Epistles of the New Testament (e.i. Hebrews, James, Jude). Furthermore, he rejected Esther in the Old Testament. He was also uncomfortable with the Book of Revelation. Not too long after the Reformation, not only Luther, but others started criticizing the canon of the Scriptures. And in an attempt to limit the damages the Council of Trent has reaffirmed what was the canon.

In addition, it is still a fact that the doctrine of purgatory was well known in late Judaism and early Christianity. Inscriptions in the walls of CATACOMBS show that purgatory was a common belief by the end of the second century, which is also attested to by Tertullian , St. Cypryan of Carthage and Cyril of Jerusalem, (Catechetical Lectures 29). St. Augustine of Hippo confirms the same type of prayers and also speaks of a purifying fire (City of God 21.26). St. Gregory I (the Great) talks about purgatorial fire removing “light sins” and condones the offering of the Eucharist for the deliverance of the soul of one who has p***ed (Dialogues 4.41, 57). St. Thomas Aquinas gave the cl***ic theological expression to the doctrine in his Commentary on the Sentences (4.21.1).

Purgatory is ***ociated with the theological ideas of dying in peace with Christ but still needing purification, and of Purgatory as a place intermediate between heaven and hell where the soul grows to see God (Eastern Christianity) or suffers and is purified for lesser sins (Western Christianity).

Yes, Luther with his 95 theses has decrying this clinking of coins but he also promised to pop parents from purgatory. It is a mistake to think that Luther theology was identical to the theology of modern christian fundamentalists. Luther would have been more relaxed or less stressed in the today Catholic Church than in any of all the 35,000 denominations in North America.

Concerning the prayer into the Maccabees, this form of prayer was into the Jewish religious customs. However, only God could accept or reject this sort of prayer. This is a possibility that they have prayed in vain because of the evidence of the idolatry that they found, but this never signified that the practice was unusual and bad. All prayers are under the sovereignty of God.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadduecees for adding to the Scriptures with their oral teachings and traditions. He said that they had made the command of God void by the traditions of men. Sadly, I think the same thing has happened with our estranged Catholic bretheren.

This is discussable. One thing is certain, the Catholic Church had united the books in a unique canon and at no time after this *** was done, the Catholic Church had criticized, or rejected some books, as Martin Luther did.

Trinity

Trinity

10-20-2008, 02:26 PM

To correct some protestant misconceptions about the purgatory.

1) All people in purgatory are saved. This is only a process for the purification before seeing God. The antechamber of Heaven. The doctrine has nothing to do about salvation but only about purification. Christian dead are to be judged according to their works, for their unconfessed sins (not admitted). It is obvious that even if we are saved, we will not be totally purified in this life.

"2 Mc 12.39–45. According to the text, when Judas Maccabee and his men made arrangements for the ﬁtting burial of the soldiers of his army who had died near Adullam, it was discovered that they had worn pagan amulets, contrary to the prescriptions of the Mosaic Law. Judas concluded that God had punished the soldiers for this sinful practice; God’s just judgment was praised, and prayers were offered on behalf of the victims. A collection of 12,000 drachmas was then gathered and sent to Jerusalem to have expiatory sacriﬁces offered for those who had fallen in battle. The inspired author of 2 Maccabees, a ﬁrm believer himself in the resurrection of the dead (2 Mc 7.9, 11, 14, 23, 29), concludes that Judas also believed in the resurrection of the dead. He, therefore, praised Judas, who acted out of consideration for the resurrection of the dead, and argued that, if he had not hoped that the slain should rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them when dead; but if he did this with a view toward the splendid reward that awaited those who died in godliness, it was a holy and
pious thought. Therefore, Judas made atonement for the dead, that they might be freed from sin."

New Catholic Encyclopedia
Thomson-Gale, 2nd Edition.
Vol 11, pp. 824-829

In the Old Testament. the concept of Purgatory appear in the last two centuries before Christ ( R. De Vaux, Ancient Israel, Its Life and Ins***utions, tr. J. McHugh [New York 1961] 60.) Jesus and Paul were well informed about this belief and nowhere in the New Testament this belief was condemned.

In Judaism or in the rabbinical literature, besides the everlasting punishments of GEHENNA and the punishment of sinners, the idea was current that some people would remain only for a time in Gehenna, where they would be purified. Some rabbis interpreted the words of Zec 13.9 in this sense: ‘‘I will bring the one third through ﬁre, and I will reﬁne them as silver is reﬁned, and I will test them as gold is tested.’’ The school of Shammai attributed this purification to the eschatological place of pain, where certain people, through God’s mercy and goodness, would be prepared to enjoy eternal life.

2) In the early Church, prayers and other good works were offered for the departed souls as a matter of common practice. There can be no doubt, then, that the widespread belief of the early Church, as shown by many of the Fathers (TERTULLIAN, ORIGEN, CYPRIAN, EPHRAM, AMBROSE, AUGUSTINE, CHRYSOSTOM, CAESARIUS OF ARLES, and GREGORY THE GREAT; texts in Enchiridion patristicum, ed. M. J. Rouët de Journel [21st ed. Freiburg im Breisgau 1960] index 587–589) and as evidenced by the liturgy, demanded the existence of a state after death in which the souls of the just would be fully puriﬁed from any remains of sin before entering heaven.

The teaching of the Eastern Church today displays some differences from that of the West. The dead ﬁnd themselves in an intermediate state, awaiting the day of the ﬁnal judgment. The good already enjoy some foretaste of heaven, while the evil experience some of the torments of hell. Beyond this, Eastern doctrine is not too clear, although their theologians in general reject the idea that the puriﬁcation takes place by ﬁre and that a special place is set aside for it. Since neither of these points was deﬁned in the councils, the seeming opposition between East and West in the matter of purgatory is not insurmountable. In general, the teaching of the Eastern Church reﬂects the primitive and somewhat undeveloped doctrine of the Fathers of the Church on the status of the departed souls.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Finally, there is no time in the purgatory because there is no time in Heaven either. However, there are shames (bad conscience), chagrins, dishonors, guilts, humiliations, mortifications, remorse, contrition, forgiveness, reconciliations with ourselves, reconciliations with others, hearing, and revelations about our heart and our mind. This process is more painful for believers who are living denying the pure truth about their impurities, refusing to see themselves like they really are. There is no masks in Purgatory, no one can hide his vices. Some people can fool their church but in Purgatory nobody can be fooled. We will have to face the mirror.

Trinity

jean

10-20-2008, 09:27 PM

I just think the once saved always saved additude is dangerous. And unbiblical to say the least. Even to say it was to be totally presumptious about it.

teal,
I agree. I don't believe in 'once saved, always saved.'
We are being sanctified daily. We are to continue to grow and strive for holiness.The Holy Spirit is our constant guide. :)

God bless,
jean

jean

10-20-2008, 09:33 PM

To correct some protestant misconceptions about the purgatory.

1) All people in purgatory are saved. This is only a process for the purification before seeing God. The antechamber of Heaven. The doctrine has nothing to do about salvation but only about purification. Christian dead are to be judged according to their works, for their unconfessed sins (not admitted). It is obvious that even if we are saved, we will not be totally purified in this life.

In the Old Testament. the concept of Purgatory appear in the last two centuries before Christ ( R. De Vaux, Ancient Israel, Its Life and Ins***utions, tr. J. McHugh [New York 1961] 60.) Jesus and Paul were well informed about this belief and nowhere in the New Testament this belief was condemned.

In Judaism or in the rabbinical literature, besides the everlasting punishments of GEHENNA and the punishment of sinners, the idea was current that some people would remain only for a time in Gehenna, where they would be purified. Some rabbis interpreted the words of Zec 13.9 in this sense: ‘‘I will bring the one third through ﬁre, and I will reﬁne them as silver is reﬁned, and I will test them as gold is tested.’’ The school of Shammai attributed this purification to the eschatological place of pain, where certain people, through God’s mercy and goodness, would be prepared to enjoy eternal life.

2) In the early Church, prayers and other good works were offered for the departed souls as a matter of common practice. There can be no doubt, then, that the widespread belief of the early Church, as shown by many of the Fathers (TERTULLIAN, ORIGEN, CYPRIAN, EPHRAM, AMBROSE, AUGUSTINE, CHRYSOSTOM, CAESARIUS OF ARLES, and GREGORY THE GREAT; texts in Enchiridion patristicum, ed. M. J. Rouët de Journel [21st ed. Freiburg im Breisgau 1960] index 587–589) and as evidenced by the liturgy, demanded the existence of a state after death in which the souls of the just would be fully puriﬁed from any remains of sin before entering heaven.

The teaching of the Eastern Church today displays some differences from that of the West. The dead ﬁnd themselves in an intermediate state, awaiting the day of the ﬁnal judgment. The good already enjoy some foretaste of heaven, while the evil experience some of the torments of hell. Beyond this, Eastern doctrine is not too clear, although their theologians in general reject the idea that the puriﬁcation takes place by ﬁre and that a special place is set aside for it. Since neither of these points was deﬁned in the councils, the seeming opposition between East and West in the matter of purgatory is not insurmountable. In general, the teaching of the Eastern Church reﬂects the primitive and somewhat undeveloped doctrine of the Fathers of the Church on the status of the departed souls.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Finally, there is no time in the purgatory because there is no time in Heaven either. However, there are shames (bad conscience), chagrins, dishonors, guilts, humiliations, mortifications, remorse, contrition, forgiveness, reconciliations with ourselves, reconciliations with others, hearing, and revelations about our heart and our mind. This process is more painful for believers who are living denying the pure truth about their impurities, refusing to see themselves like they really are. There is no masks in Purgatory, no one can hide his vices. Some people can fool their church but in Purgatory nobody can be fooled. We will have to face the mirror.

Trinity

Hello trinity,
I've been wondering about 'Purgatory'? I saw this p***age in 1Cor.3:15. I thought this may possibly fit the discription of Purgatory?
What do you think?

God bless,
jean

jean

10-20-2008, 09:37 PM

Hello trinity,
I've been wondering about 'Purgatory'? I saw this p***age in 1Cor.3:15. I thought this may possibly fit the discription of Purgatory?
What do you think?

God bless,
jean

I guess I should've read your entire post.:)
Do you, I found that myself.(1Cor.3:15) Aren't you proud of me.
Your the first Catholic That I have come in contact with that has provided a scripture for this teaching.

jean

tealblue

10-21-2008, 01:43 AM

By saved I mean that my sins had been forgiven and I was a Christian.

I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept. I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

disciple

10-21-2008, 05:36 AM

Hi TB,
As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.

I understand what you are saying. As a catholic I don't believe in the born again concept.
I believe in conversion but not a one time decision making one saved. I used to believe in this concept and for me it was too easy too just say God is working in me and I hope I will be sactified one day. I know way too many x christians who were once on fire for God and no more.

Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

Leslie

10-21-2008, 06:53 AM

Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it. Luther was not the first, sir.

Also, I disagree with alot of Luther's theology, but I do appreciate what he did.

And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

disciple

10-21-2008, 08:44 AM

And disciple, just a point for you to consider. Those are all very good and well scriptures, but what do you do with this verse?

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I Am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." - John 15:1-6 NASB

Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples who are already “in Him”. They are “clean” [pruned]. Their present status is not in question. They are branches attached to the true vine [verse 5]. It is very important to understand that Jesus is speaking to saved individuals. They have life because they are attached to the source of life. Jesus is not talking about how one comes to be in Him [get saved]. He is speaking of the importance of abiding in Him. Young’s Literal Translation renders “abide” as “remain”. It can also be understood as “continue”. The branches in the true vine must remain in Him in order to continue to enjoy the life that flows from Him. No one can have life outside of Christ. The believer remains in Christ through faith and will continue to produce the fruits of faith and life for as long a he or she remains in Christ. When a branch ceases to remain (through faith), as indicated by fruitlessness, it is cut off. Here is a vivid and concise picture of the nature of apostasy. The apostate is not someone who was never in the vine, but someone who did not remain in the vine. Only true believers can be said to have genuinely been in the vine. No unbeliever can be said to be “in Christ”.

Hi Leslie,
The salvation of the sinner is not the subject here but the path of the disciple. Of course we are all responsable to obey Christ and remain in Him, but this can only be done with grace. The following is taken from a commentary by Vernon MaGee and I agree with this interpretation.

"Everyone He is speaking to here is a believer. The prophets spoke of the nation Israel as the vine—Psalm 80:8-9; Isaiah 5:1-7; Jeremiah 2:21; Hosea 10:1. It was a degenerate vine, and Jesus now presents Himself as the genuine vine. Salvation is not by being in Isreael (or being in a church), but being in Christ. A grapevine will never break at the place where the branch goes into the vine. "Abide" (verse 4) means constant communion with Christ—isn't that what a branch is doing in the vine? "Fruit" (verse 5) is produced by the Holy Spirit in such a life (Galatians 5:22-23). The fruit of soul-winning is a by-product. The fire in verse 6 is not hell, but being taken away from the place of fruitbearing (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15)."

Trinity

10-21-2008, 11:47 AM

Saint Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate and one of the few Church Fathers that could read and write both Hebrew and Greek did not accept the Apocrypha as inspired. He did consider them to be profitable to be read in the churches for edification as they do contain alot of good wisdom. but that no doctrine should be made from them.

He's just one example of some of the fathers who did not accept it.

Hello Leslie,

Perhaps you do not know this, but books that we have presently in our New Testament were also contested by the early Church. In the Eastern side and also in the Western side of the Roman Empire, churches had many distinctive canons. There was much debate about other books including Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation. Some churches accepted the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas as Scripture. Also, the Septuangint was the version adopted by the Apostles and this version had included the Deuterocanonical books. Almost all the biblical quotes or references in the New Testament are from the Septuangint.

Furthermore, the Essenes people or the people from the Qumran community, also had those books in their libraries. In brief, those books were present in the Church until the arrival of Luther.

You are correct when you said that St. Jerome (also, Gregory of Nazianzus and Epiphanius) favored the list of the Hebrew Bible and that he did not accept all the Deuterocanonical books, as canonical. However, Ambrose and Augustine disagreed with him. Anyway, the canon was not decided according to the opinion of one man but with councils. That was the same thing with the dogma of the Trinity.

Keep also in mind that the Jews had no canon in Jesus time. Jews are not a authority for the Christians to decide which book is canonical. Yes they rejected the Deuterocanonical books at the end of the first century of the christian era, but they also rejected the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles.

In conclusion, Jerome was not the only polyglot and some Fathers of the Church also quoted the Deuterocanonical books (ex. Polycarp of Smyrna,Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Cyprian of Carthage, Augustine, etc). Ultimately, Jerome recognized that the Church alone had the authority to determine the canon.

"We are obliged to yield many things to the papists that they possess the Word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it."

Martin Luther
Commentary on St. John
Chapter 16th

Trinity

Trinity

10-21-2008, 01:57 PM

Hello Jean,

Hello trinity,
I've been wondering about 'Purgatory'? I saw this p***age in 1Cor.3:15. I thought this may possibly fit the discription of Purgatory? What do you think?

What we call good works or even bad works is often synonymous of a virtuous life or a sinful life. It is obvious that in this p***age of 1Cor.3:15 our life will p*** through a complete ***essment. Not only the good moments but also the worst moments. The worst moments will be more painful because of our delusion about ourselves and about our achievements. All our intimate lies will be revealed and enlightened by the LIGHT of God, until we acknowledge that there was a lot of selfishness and egotism in our very inner motivations. Everyone knows that we can only purify gold or silver through the fire.

1 Peter 2:12 Be careful how you live among your unbelieving neighbors. Even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will believe and give honor to God when he comes to judge the world.

People in Purgatory will escape destruction and they will not go into hell. However, after their dead, they cannot escape the purification. The problem with this doctrine is more about the dramatization throughout the centuries by the believers, than the reasonable comprehension of the doctrine.

"A modern tends to see purgatory through the eyes of Dante, so seen, the doctrine is profoundly religious. That purification must, in its own nature, be painful, we hardly dare to dispute."

C.S, Lewis
English Literature in the
Sixteenth Century, blc.
11.1.1, para 8, p.163

"I believe in Purgatory. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out with this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

C.S. Lewis
Letters to Malcolm:
Chiefly on Prayer,
chap. 20, para. 7-10,
pp. 108-109

Trinity

tealblue

10-23-2008, 02:55 AM

Hi TB,
As Christians we need to consider what Jesus said as opposed to what we tend to believe or feel is true based on religious teaching or human logic.

Here is what Jesus said in John 3:3,"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most ***uredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Are you disagreeing with this?

How many decisions does one need to make to be saved? Jesus said in John 5:24 "Most ***uredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has p***ed from death into life."
So what is an x christian, some one who has p***ed from death to life and has p***ed back from life to death? Jesus said we must be born again so it is apparent that some people are born again, so how would you know if you were dead again, one sin, ten sins, missing church 3 weeks in a row?
The scriptures tells us Christ is in us, so what is His criteria for leaving us?
Even when we are born again we still must deal with a sinful nature but Christ is our Mediator, when we are saved we belong to Him, He promised He would not leave us or forsake us. I did not see any "unless" after this promise.

I don't disagree that one must be born again only what being born again is. No early church father believed being born again was anything but water baptism. The whole chapter is about water baptism nothing else.

Bob Carabbio

10-23-2008, 07:33 PM

Sure - The Maccabees apparently had incorporated it into their belief package. But it's STILL nothing BUT a pagan concept. The Jews had become as functionally pagan as any of the nations around 'em LONG before Jesus' time. Read through Kings and Chronicles sometime - it's all there - a constant spiritual death spiral with a few spiritual bright spots scattered here and there.

Bob Carabbio

10-23-2008, 07:37 PM

ALL sins are "mortal" unless they're removed by the Blood of Christ. "Venial/Mortal" is nothing more that ANOTHER pagan infusion in to the visible church.

tealblue

10-24-2008, 03:58 AM

ALL sins are "mortal" unless they're removed by the Blood of Christ. "Venial/Mortal" is nothing more that ANOTHER pagan infusion in to the visible church.

1 john 5 17,18

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

This text shows a difference bewteen sin that causes death(mortal) and sin that doesn't(venial)

We sin everyday. So why do christians in general will say somebody who doesn't show the fruits of salvation isn't saved? if you see your brother commiting adultry you will worry about his salvation. Why if a sin as a sin. whats the differnece between having a brief bad thought towards someone and running him over with your car. Lurther believed you could murder many times a day and be saved.

Leslie

10-24-2008, 06:00 AM

1 john 5 17,18

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

This text shows a difference bewteen sin that causes death(mortal) and sin that doesn't(venial)

We sin everyday. So why do christians in general will say somebody who doesn't show the fruits of salvation isn't saved? if you see your brother commiting adultry you will worry about his salvation. Why if a sin as a sin. whats the differnece between having a brief bad thought towards someone and running him over with your car. Lurther believed you could murder many times a day and be saved.

I don't believe that a person has to sin every day. If you sin, John says you're of the devil.

Bob Carabbio

11-02-2008, 10:18 PM

That the "Jews" believed in it is one pretty good indication that it's a pagan concept since it's never taught in the Bible, but obviously believed in by 'ol Judas Maccabeus. But HEY - the Catholics rejected that book as being canonical from the get-go. It's a little disingenuous to use it as the basis for a whole doctrine, don'cha think?????

And you make the common Catholic/Mormon/JW/CofC mistake of failing to differentiate between "in order to", and "Because of".

Sure we're to be obedient - no problem there. But our obedience is "BECAUSE" of our faith. Not the "Source" of it.

Bob Carabbio

11-02-2008, 10:26 PM

"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."

The Romanist "spin" on the Word is PURE foolishness, of course. You'd have to toss the ENTIRE BALANCE of the Bible away to believe that stupidity.

ALL SIN leads to death - PERIOD What the p***age is REALLY saying is that some sin results in death NOW - and some sins result in death LATER. Ananias and Sapphira were two whose sin was "unto death".

The Catholic Heresy about "venial sin" is based on NOTHING but pagan tradition.

jean

11-02-2008, 11:47 PM

So do you believe in the old baptist saying "once saved, always saved"?

Does that mean that I could go out and sin, not repent over them, get hit by a car and then die and go to heaven?

I don't believe the 'once saved' concept. the Bible teaches we are being sanctified daily. We also sin daily. Even when we don't intend to.
I depend on the Lord's mercy and love. He is my best friend, I know He is with me at all times. the Lord is with you also. Tell Him you love Him. :)

jean, p2

Leslie

11-03-2008, 12:33 AM

I don't believe the 'once saved' concept. the Bible teaches we are being sanctified daily. We also sin daily. Even when we don't intend to.
I depend on the Lord's mercy and love. He is my best friend, I know He is with me at all times. the Lord is with you also. Tell Him you love Him. :)

jean, p2

Well, I don't agree that we have to sin EVERY day, because I think part of Sanctification is the strength and ability to resist sin. I don't believe that it means that we no longer are capable of sinning though. I know I fail God and sin, but there are times where I lay down my head at night with a clean spirit and Conscience and just know that all is right. At other times I'm convicted of something and know that I need to repent of whatever it was.

I'm telling ya though, it's the best feeling ever when you know that you don't have to pray for forgiveness at night and you can just concentrate on praising God and worshipping him. Those are the nights that I sleep the best on.

GateKeeper

11-03-2008, 09:50 AM

Saint Paul didn't think so.

1 cor 4:4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
5
Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

1 cor 9:27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

Not only did paul not think he was ***ured of salvation but he also thought that he could lose it.

Rom 11:22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Paul also warn us of us too being cut off

Heb 10:26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
27
but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

Again we are warned that deliberate sin results in us being cut off.

He who endure till the end will be saved Matt 24

I know there is alot of scripture that says no one will take us out of Gods hands. I would say to that aslong as we remain in the eternal sonship of christ thats true but not if we turn away in sin.

Faith, hope, and love are the building blocks for peace, and serenity. This is the mark God has set for us. It is when we can claim this condition that we are 'truly' saved. It starts in this life, but it does not happen over night. A great deal of change, and growth must first take place within us. We must be willing to allow God to create His vessels. This is true salvation, and something few are ever developed into."

As for eternal life, I believe what Christ accomplished extends beyond our religious ideologies, and our personal beliefs (He is our salvation - None come to the father but through Him). I don't think it necessary to believe in the man Jesus however, but rather to have an indwelling of the Spirit/light/Word that He manifest....

We can attain the kingdom right here on earth [At least in part]. After death, I think we are granted access to the fullness of the kingdom, which the unknown. It starts here with us, and within us. I was just thinking last night as I was drifting off to sleep - that the more each individual attains degree's of the "Kingdom condition" a little better does the world get.

It starts with us, right here on earth - Like a snowball, as each individual attains a Kingdom mindest, (Seek ye first the Kingdom of God) God's kingdom on earth increases. One day, I believe that the earth will be filled with God's children - Those who live and die for His purpose. I always want to go back to the Lords prayer - It is a beautiful prayer and it is quite telling of what is to come to p*** [imo]

"Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done [I]on earth as it is is heaven"

GK

sayso

02-06-2009, 09:19 PM

As for eternal life, I believe what Christ accomplished extends beyond our religious ideologies, and our personal beliefs (He is our salvation - None come to the father but through Him). I don't think it necessary to believe in the man Jesus however, but rather to have an indwelling of the Spirit/light/Word that He manifest....

John 17

1 WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

2 [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.

It isn't anyone's ideology. It is what Jesus taught. We can no more accept Jesus as our teacher while denying His message than our president could deny the message of Rev. Jeremiah Wright while still accepting him as his teacher. That is why he denounced the Rev. Wright. So that he could gain people's favor and thus win the election.

We can attain the kingdom right here on earth [At least in part]. After death, I think we are granted access to the fullness of the kingdom, which the unknown. It starts here with us, and within us. I was just thinking last night as I was drifting off to sleep - that the more each individual attains degree's of the "Kingdom condition" a little better does the world get.

It starts with us, right here on earth - Like a snowball, as each individual attains a Kingdom mindest, (Seek ye first the Kingdom of God) God's kingdom on earth increases. One day, I believe that the earth will be filled with God's children - Those who live and die for His purpose. I always want to go back to the Lords prayer - It is a beautiful prayer and it is quite telling of what is to come to p*** [imo]

"Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, they will be done [I]on earth as it is is heaven"

GK

2 Peter 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=10&version=49&context=verse) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will p*** away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Revelation 21:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=1&version=49&context=verse)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Seems to me that it would be a waste of time trying to regenerate this world and remake it into God's Kingdom since God/Jesus said it is p***ing away and that it and it's works will be burned up. Then there will be a "new" earth. :eek:

Our purpose is not to build His Kingdom right here on earth.

Our purpose is to know God and the One He sent.
This is the second part of our purpose.

Matthew 28

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Am I ***ured of my salvation?

Romans 8

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You betcha!

GateKeeper

02-11-2009, 05:57 AM

John 17

1 WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

2 [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.

It isn't anyone's ideology. It is what Jesus taught. We can no more accept Jesus as our teacher while denying His message than our president could deny the message of Rev. Jeremiah Wright while still accepting him as his teacher. That is why he denounced the Rev. Wright. So that he could gain people's favor and thus win the election.

I'm quite confident that what Jesus accomplished on the cross extends beyond our mental concepts of Him. He resides in the heart of man. We know him the very same way we know G-d. Christ's words were not His own, but the fathers who dwelt in Him. G-d is Love (1 John 4) We know G-d, and His son by knowing Him as such, and loving as we have been commanded Christ was/is G-ds love personified

2 Peter 3:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?book_id=68&chapter=3&verse=10&version=49&context=verse) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will p*** away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Revelation 21:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?book_id=73&chapter=21&verse=1&version=49&context=verse)
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth p***ed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Seems to me that it would be a waste of time trying to regenerate this world and remake it into God's Kingdom since God/Jesus said it is p***ing away and that it and it's works will be burned up. Then there will be a "new" earth. :eek:

Seems to me that heaven will p*** away also. The new heaven and new earth describes a restored Eden/paradise/earth. Why would you feel it a waste of time to help others realize the 'kingdom within themselves when this is what we are called to do?

Our purpose is not to build His Kingdom right here on earth.

Our purpose is to know God and the One He sent.
This is the second part of our purpose.

Seek ye first the kingdom of G-d.

Matthew 28

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

What is a disciple? What is the good news/gospel. My belief is that a disciple is one who has been disciplined to live according to G-ds will. I also believe that we are to teach and help others realize the kingdom of G-d within themselves, which is the good news of the Gospel. (True Salvation)

Am I ***ured of my salvation?

Romans 8

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You betcha!

I would hope for no less for any whom live to serve our Lord....

GK

sayso

02-11-2009, 10:20 PM

I'm quite confident that what Jesus accomplished on the cross extends beyond our mental concepts of Him. He resides in the heart of man. We know him the very same way we know G-d. Christ's words were not His own, but the fathers who dwelt in Him. G-d is Love (1 John 4) We know G-d, and His son by knowing Him as such, and loving as we have been commanded Christ was/is G-ds love personified

Hi Gatekeeper,

I don't believe that knowing God and the One He sent is a mental concept but an intimate(close) relationship. A mental concept to me would be knowing about either or both. I know about President Obama but I do not know him. I know my friends and family as well as knowing about them. I am close to them and converse with them on a daily basis.

Seems to me that heaven will p*** away also. The new heaven and new earth describes a restored Eden/paradise/earth. Why would you feel it a waste of time to help others realize the 'kingdom within themselves when this is what we are called to do?

True, that's what the scriptures that I posted said, the heavens and the earth. Nobody said anything about the kingdom within (spiritual kingdom) but as for this world it is a physical place which it isn't our *** to make into a paradise. By the way nobody except those who have been born again have the kingdom within. So I would rather help others get the "kingdom of God" within them.

Seek ye first the kingdom of G-d.

No argument here except that you won't find the kingdom of God in or through anyone or anything but Jesus.

Here's the rest of the story. :)

Matthew 6

31 Therefore do not worry and be anxious, saying, What are we going to have to eat? or, What are we going to have to drink? or, What are we going to have to wear?

32 For the Gentiles (heathen) wish for and crave and diligently seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows well that you need them all.

33 But seek (aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness (His way of doing and being right), and then all these things taken together will be given you besides.

34 So do not worry or be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will have worries and anxieties of its own. Sufficient for each day is its own trouble.

You see when you read the rest of the verses you see here that Jesus was speaking of seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness before you seek material things and food and clothing. It certainly doesn't imply that one should seek His kingdom before seeking Him.

What is His Kingdom? Knowing Jesus the King and being His loyal servant?

What is a disciple? What is the good news/gospel. My belief is that a disciple is one who has been disciplined to live according to G-ds will. I also believe that we are to teach and help others realize the kingdom of G-d within themselves, which is the good news of the Gospel. (True Salvation)

Disciple = mathētēs in greek.

It means 1) a learner, pupil, disciple.

My belief from this definition is that being a disciple has more to do with learning from God and being a student/pupil of God/Jesus than it has to do with someone who disciplines himself. Although I agree that a person who listens and learns from God will live according to God's will.

Again, I don't believe the kingdom is within unless you've been born again so it's not so much teaching others that they already have God inside them but that they must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

John 3

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;

2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Now I am aware that Jesus did say "the kingdom of God, is in your midst".

Luke 17

20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

But again we need to look at the context in which it is written. Jesus was being questioned by the Pharisees as always. They wanted to know when the Kingdom of God was coming. They were looking for a literal kingdom in which they would have a man to rule over them. What they got when Jesus showed up was the spiritual kingdom which is within the souls of those who received Him and are born of the Spirit.

I don't believe it's an indication that the Kingdom of God is in every person and they just needed to discover it. I believe that Jesus was simply telling them that it(the kingdom of God) wouldn't be something you could see or touch (tangible) but something that will be within you.

I would hope for no less for any whom live to serve our Lord....

GK
AMEN! No need to hope for it. It is a fact for those who love and serve God and have been called according to His purpose. :)

alanmolstad

11-19-2012, 08:35 PM

YES!....Im ***ured of my salvation!

glm1978

11-20-2012, 05:16 AM

YES!....Im ***ured of my salvation!

So you are born again?

alanmolstad

04-01-2013, 06:31 AM

one of the marks that you are in a CULT is that they got to keep you guessing if you are saved or not?

Thats the hook the CULTs put into you and keeps you close and only looking to the CULT for your salvation....even if you dont think you are at the time.

Lets take a look at how this is true for members of the JW cult.
The average JW at your door has no lasting feeling that they are eternally saved.
What they feel is that if they work hard for the Watchtower that this will count toward their salvation.
But this also means that if they don't work then they have lost their one chance for salvation.

This is the hook the Watchtower Org has over it's members.
First it teaches that you cant ever be 100% sure you are always saved.
Then next they tell you that you can only learn the truth from the Watchtower org.

Thus the JW at your door is there because they simply have no real ***urance of their own salvation and so they are attempting to earn salvation "points" as it were, by doing door-to-door witnessing to spread the hold of the Watchtower to more people.

This same way of getting hooks into people under their control is common to all the CULTS....

But its not the way we are to believe, nor act...

I am a Christian.
Im saved by Grace though faith.
Im not kept saved by works.

alanmolstad

02-08-2014, 08:30 AM

Christians do not earn their salvation via works, nor do we maintain our salvation via works.

If it was all up to me to keep myself saved I might as well give up right now....

alanmolstad

03-10-2017, 05:20 AM

I say again...

one of the marks that you are in a CULT is that they got to keep you guessing if you are saved or not?

Thats the hook the CULTs put into you and keeps you close and only looking to the CULT for your salvation....even if you dont think you are at the time.

Lets take a look at how this is true for members of the JW cult.
The average JW at your door has no lasting feeling that they are eternally saved.
What they feel is that if they work hard for the Watchtower that this will count toward their salvation.
But this also means that if they don't work then they have lost their one chance for salvation.

This is the hook the Watchtower Org has over it's members.
First it teaches that you cant ever be 100% sure you are always saved.
Then next they tell you that you can only learn the truth from the Watchtower org.

Thus the JW at your door is there because they simply have no real ***urance of their own salvation and so they are attempting to earn salvation "points" as it were, by doing door-to-door witnessing to spread the hold of the Watchtower to more people.

This same way of getting hooks into people under their control is common to all the CULTS....

But its not the way we are to believe, nor act...

I am a Christian.
Im saved by Grace though faith.
Im not kept saved by works.

Many CULTS use Hebrews 6 to teach that a person can lose their salvation...
Here is what Walter martin says about this topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YZ5b6UJ1NQ