Challenged to show at least one prophecy that has come true. [Archive]

Richard

08-20-2009, 09:22 PM

In 1834, with Church membership near four thousand, Joseph Smith told a small gathering of priesthood brethren:

"I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

The tiny seed planted in upstate New York has now spread to more than 160 countries. How has that happened? Truth and righteousness are sweeping the earth in three phases. The first is missionary work, which introduces the gospel. Where success occurs, small branches are formed with limited priesthood keys. As the Church grows in an area, branches become wards, which then become stakes. Stakes represent the second phase. Stakes are centers of strength and denote additional priesthood keys. The presence of a stake indicates that the gospel has taken root and a mature membership exists. Temples represent the third phase. The placement of a temple in an area signifies the presence of a number of stakes within close proximity and a spiritual maturity worthy of higher ordinances and covenants. It is instructive to briefly review the historical progress of these three manifestations of the "stone cut out of the mountain without hands" which, as Joseph said, will fill North and South America and eventually the whole earth (Daniel 2:34–35, 44–45).

2000

Today, there are 333 missions. The fall of the Berlin Wall opened Eastern Europe to missionary work. Today, there are missions across Russia from St. Petersburg in the west to Vladivostok in the east. Philippine missions continue to divide with new missions being formed. The density of missions in North, Central, and South America continues to increase. The number of African missions is also on the rise.

The Growth of Stakes across the World, 1830–2000

Given the pattern of growth in missions, the fruits of missionary work appear in the formation of stakes in fulfillment of Joseph Smith’s prophecy.

Now, Check back with us in another 20 years all you doubters and we can discuss the growth of, "THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHIRST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, some more.

Regards, Richard. :)

Fig-bearing Thistle

08-20-2009, 09:47 PM

BrianH

08-21-2009, 02:51 AM

Is that supposed to be a "prophecy" in the first place???

-BH

.

Mesenja

08-21-2009, 11:40 PM

Joseph Smith said that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world." He spoke that their would be a future event involving the church and this was fulfilled.

Sara

08-21-2009, 11:47 PM

Richard

08-22-2009, 08:12 AM

It hasn't "filled" anything. The percentage of mormons in the world is miniscule.

Sara, the prophesy did not mention numbers, only that the Restored Gospel of Christ would flood the earth, first published in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been continuously in print since then, for over 170 years. It has been translated into dozens of foreign languages. Millions of people have read it, many receiving free copies from Mormon missionaries - has a full-time missionary corps of over 60,000. Many of those investigating have accepted its claims and joined our Church, or Christ Church.

So instead of being just another cult as some claim, the Church has thrived, expanded, and taken the Gospel to many foreign countries, while all the time filling both north and south America with meetinghouses and temples.

r.

Fig-bearing Thistle

08-22-2009, 08:16 AM

Sara, the prophesy did not mention numbers, only that the Restored Gospel of Christ would flood the earth, first published in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been continuously in print since then, for over 170 years. It has been translated into dozens of foreign languages. Millions of people have read it, many receiving free copies from Mormon missionaries - has a full-time missionary corps of over 60,000. Many of those investigating have accepted its claims and joined our Church, or Christ Church.

So instead of being just another cult as some claim, the Church has thrived, expanded, and taken the Gospel to many foreign countries, while all the time filling both north and south America with meetinghouses and temples.

r.

Didn't I predict this very objection, Richard? LOL!

That's scary when you start thinking like the critics do.

Richard

08-22-2009, 08:23 AM

Didn't I predict this very objection, Richard? LOL!

That's scary when you start thinking like the critics do.

Your scary good buddy, a future prophet in the making. Don't you just love the frustration you see with Evangelicals who want so badly for Mormons to just go away, but what they do not expect is for a growing and thriving Church, that has put into place Gospel principles even from the Bible, such as ***hing that makes all of this possible, interesting they cannot claim the same.

r.

BrianH

08-22-2009, 09:20 AM

It sounds like a prediction based on the usual patterns of growth for human movements. MANY movements -religious, political, economic, philosophical, scientific, etc. have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them. Are THEY all led by "prophets" too?

Can you show me where SMITH said it was a prophecy? I can't find that part. Maybe you can.

-BH

.

Fig-bearing Thistle

08-22-2009, 09:32 AM

Your scary good buddy, a future prophet in the making. Don't you just love the frustration you see with Evangelicals who want so badly for Mormons to just go away, but what they do not expect is for a growing and thriving Church, that has put into place Gospel principles even from the Bible, such as ***hing that makes all of this possible, interesting they cannot claim the same.

r.

Yea. I'm still waiting for Brian to present the ideal scenario or ideal prophecy that would make a Mormon out of him.

Richard

08-22-2009, 10:02 AM

Yea. I'm still waiting for Brian to present the ideal scenario or ideal prophecy that would make a Mormon out of him.

:)Never going to happen, how can one even begin to be converted when he hasn't even read completely any of our Standard works, never read all of Joseph's prophesies, and thinks the Fragments in our possession are the Book of Abraham. His problem will always be his blundering along using borrowed talking points that originate from others, and allows them to be his guide on what is true or false, a very sorry situation.

r. ;)

Fig-bearing Thistle

08-22-2009, 10:35 AM

:)Never going to happen, how can one even begin to be converted when he hasn't even read completely any of our Standard works, never read all of Joseph's prophesies, and thinks the Fragments in our possession are the Book of Abraham. His problem will always be his blundering along using borrowed talking points that originate from others, and allows them to be his guide on what is true or false, a very sorry situation.

r. ;)
I'm still challenging him to provide one. If he can't then it shows the dis-ingenuous nature of his opposition.

It's kind of a challenge for him to think for himself, instead of relying on the talking points of the scholars he limits his reading to.

Mesenja

08-22-2009, 02:04 PM

Wilford Woodruff said that Joseph Smith asked the local priesthood holders in the vicinity of Kirtland,Ohio to gather in a tiny 14 foot square log schoolhouse and challenged them to testify of the church and it's future. Responding to their ineffective attempts to see the future of the church and it's growth he gave this prophecy.

"I want to say to you before the Lord,that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight,but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

A prophecy is the prediction of future events and the disclosing of information that can not be known to the prophet by any ordinary means. It is utterly preposterous for you to say that Joseph Smith based his prediction on known "patterns of growth for human movements." Besides you do not have any basis in statistical data to support your claims that this is simply the inevitable result of the known "patterns of growth" and that other such movements "have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them." This is showing signs of desperation Brian.

It sounds like a prediction based on the usual patterns of growth for human movements. MANY movements-religious,political,economic,philosophical,scienti fic, etc. have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them. Are THEY all led by "prophets" too? Can you show me where SMITH said it was a prophecy? I can't find that part. Maybe you can. -BH.

Not only would it be impossible for Joseph Smith to base his prediction on the "usual patterns of growth for human movements" but he prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***. Now is not this a prophecy Brian?

Besides where would Joseph Smith get this information from Brian? Also Joseph Smith did not have to announce to everyone before every prophetic statement he uttered that he was now making a prophecy.

Not happy with the prophecy of Joseph Smith that Richard provided you? How about his prophecy that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains?

D&C 49:25
25 Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains,and shall be ***embled together unto the place which I have appointed.

On the 6th of August,1842,with quite a number of his brethren,he [Joseph Smith] crossed the Mississippi river to the town of Montrose,to be present at the installation of the Masonic Lodge of the Rising Sun. A block schoolhouse had been prepared with shade in front,under which was a barrel of ice water,Judge James Adams was the highest Masonic authority in the state of Illinois,and had been sent there to organize this lodge. He and Hyrum Smith,being high Masons,went into the house to perform some ceremonies which the others were not en***led to witness. These,including Joseph Smith,remained under the bowery. Joseph, as he was tasting the cold water,warned the brethren not to be too free with it. With the tumbler still in his hand he prophesied that the saints would yet go to the Rocky Mountains;and,said he,this water tastes much like that of the crystal streams that are running from the snow-capped mountains. We will let Mr. Call describe this prophetic scene:'I had before seen him in a vision,and now saw while he was talking his countenance change to white;not the deadly white of a bloodless face,but a living,brilliant white. He seemed absorbed in gazing at something at a great distance, and said:'I am gazing upon the valleys of those mountains.'This was followed by a vivid description of the scenery of these mountains,as I have since become acquainted with it. Pointing to Shadrach Roundy and others,he said:'There are some men here who shall do a great work in that land.' Pointing to me,he said: 'There is Anson,he shall go and shall ***ist in building up cities from one end of the country to the other;and you, rather extending the idea to all those he had spoken of, shall perform as great a work as has been done by man,so that the nations of the earth shall be astonished,and many of them will be gathered in that land and ***ist in building cities and temples,and Israel shall be made to rejoice. [B. H. Roberts,Comprehensive History of the Church,Vol. 2,Ch. 51,pp.181-182]

BrianH

08-22-2009, 02:48 PM

Not all "predictions" are prophecies, Mes. I predicted that the Braves would trade out Francour before the season was over and it "came to p***" just like I said. Does that make ME a "prophet"? Why or why not?

If you do not understand the difference between a prediction and a prophecy, just ask and I will happily explain the difference for you.

Now ...can you tell me from the words themselves, why this should be considered a 'prophecy' to begin with?

-BH

.

Mesenja

08-22-2009, 04:39 PM

Not all "predictions" are prophecies,Mesenja. I predicted that the Braves would trade out Francour before the season was over and it "came to p***" just like I said. Does that make ME a "prophet"? Why or why not?

If you do not understand the difference between a prediction and a prophecy, just ask and I will happily explain the difference for you.

Now ...can you tell me from the words themselves,why this should be considered a 'prophecy' to begin with?

-Brian_H.

Please read my previous post again.

Mesenja

08-22-2009, 05:16 PM

Joseph Smith prophesied that within five years the church would be out of the power of their old enemies. Concerning a meeting held in Nauvoo in February 25th,1844 he wrote the following.

I gave some important instructions,and prophesied that within five years we should be out of the power of our old enemies,whether they were apostates of of the world;and told the brethren to record it,that when it comes to p***,they need not say they had forgotten the saying. [History of the Church ,Vol. 6,p. 225]

By 1849,the Saints were gathered in Utah (the first wave entered the Salt Lake area in July of 1847.

Richard

08-22-2009, 11:10 PM

Mesenja

08-23-2009, 12:38 AM

I provided Brian with the example of Joseph Smith prophesying that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains.

Hmmm, that makes two now Brian. :)

Richard

I think that dealing with three fulfilled prophecies by Joseph Smith is enough for Brian to deal with at the moment don't you agree?

D&C 49:25

25 Zion shall flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains,and shall be ***embled together unto the place which I have appointed.

On the 6th of August,1842,with quite a number of his brethren,he [Joseph Smith] crossed the Mississippi river to the town of Montrose,to be present at the installation of the Masonic Lodge of the Rising Sun. A block schoolhouse had been prepared with shade in front,under which was a barrel of ice water,Judge James Adams was the highest Masonic authority in the state of Illinois,and had been sent there to organize this lodge. He and Hyrum Smith,being high Masons,went into the house to perform some ceremonies which the others were not en***led to witness. These,including Joseph Smith,remained under the bowery. Joseph, as he was tasting the cold water,warned the brethren not to be too free with it. With the tumbler still in his hand he prophesied that the saints would yet go to the Rocky Mountains;and,said he,this water tastes much like that of the crystal streams that are running from the snow-capped mountains. We will let Mr. Call describe this prophetic scene:'I had before seen him in a vision,and now saw while he was talking his countenance change to white;not the deadly white of a bloodless face,but a living,brilliant white. He seemed absorbed in gazing at something at a great distance, and said:'I am gazing upon the valleys of those mountains.'This was followed by a vivid description of the scenery of these mountains,as I have since become acquainted with it. Pointing to Shadrach Roundy and others,he said:'There are some men here who shall do a great work in that land.' Pointing to me,he said: 'There is Anson,he shall go and shall ***ist in building up cities from one end of the country to the other;and you, rather extending the idea to all those he had spoken of, shall perform as great a work as has been done by man,so that the nations of the earth shall be astonished,and many of them will be gathered in that land and ***ist in building cities and temples,and Israel shall be made to rejoice. [B. H. Roberts,Comprehensive History of the Church,Vol. 2,Ch. 51,pp.181-182]

Richard

08-23-2009, 06:57 AM

I provided Brian with the example of Joseph Smith prophesying that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains.

I think that dealing with three fulfilled prophecies by Joseph Smith is enough for Brian to deal with at the moment don't you agree?

:)Mesenja, if Joseph was alive and Brian was to meet him, and he prophesied that tomorrow, Brian would accept the Book of Mormon and would receive conformation it was true, Brian would do all in his power to be sure he was not anywhere near a Book of Mormon or even dare read it. :)

r.

Fig-bearing Thistle

08-23-2009, 07:05 AM

Joseph Smith prophesied that within five years the church would be out of the power of their old enemies. Concerning a meeting held in Nauvoo in February 25th,1844 he wrote the following.

By 1849,the Saints were gathered in Utah (the first wave entered the Salt Lake area in July of 1847.

I don't think this is a fool-proof prophecy for Brian, either. Because the definition of flourish would necessarily mean, for Brian, that we don't have any poverty or social problems to deal with in the valley any longer.

So this one wouldn't work for him.

That's why I'm asking Brian to come up with the absolute convincer that would make a Mormon outta him for sure.

BrianH

08-23-2009, 01:48 PM

Mesenja

08-23-2009, 07:43 PM

But your "explanation" is lacking. At this point we have no reason to think that even Smith thought this was a prophetic revelation. Where, in this alleged "prophecy",did Smith say that he speaking for God? -Brian_H.

Yes we've reason to think that in his role of prophet he was acting as such at the time. He gave these inspired words concerning the future of the church.

"It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight,but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

He gave a prediction of future events and disclosed information that can not have bern known to the prophet by any ordinary means

He prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***.

BrianH

08-23-2009, 10:08 PM

Your re****al is found lacking

Your opinion is insufficient as support for itself.

Yes we've reason to think that in his role of prophet he was acting as such at the time. He gave these inspired words concerning the future of the church.

What makes that a prophecy?

He gave a prediction of future events and disclosed of information that can not have bern known to the prophet by any ordinary means

Such as...?

He prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***.

So it was SMITH saying this, and NOT God, right?

-BH

.

gripper

08-24-2009, 08:14 AM

What is the official church position on this subject? Has any general authority stated that they (personal opinion) or the official Church opinion is that this prophecy has been fulfilled?

Mesenja

08-24-2009, 07:26 PM

John T

08-24-2009, 10:31 PM

Sorry, Richard. This won't work for BrianH. It's not fool proof either.

This is a Millennial prophecy, (IMO), and even if during the Millennium North and South America (and the world) become filled with LDS members Brian could still claim that Joseph's prophecy meant that every human on the planet needed to be LDS for the prophecy to be correctly fulfilled.

And that actually won't happen until after the millennium, (as I see it). So, he would have to wait until then to be convinced.

I'm afraid only Brian can come up with the perfect prophecy that would make him a Mormon for sure. :D

OK, you expressed the problem well: Your subjective answer nailed it " This is a Millennial prophecy, (IMO)... "

That leads us to have two questions as a way to see the answer.
1. How does one define a prophecy objectively?
2. And once having defined the nature of a prophecy, we must ask, How does one verify its fulfillment?

I believe that the definition of the scientific method may be a good starting point:

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Therefore there are three prime criteria necessary to determine if indeed a prophecy exists. It has to be
observable
empirical
measurable
reasonable
consistent
I added the last to mean congruity with what is already known about God. For example there apocryphal stories about as a child, Jesus made doves from the mud pies. Since this has no significance to the message of the Bible, that can be dismissed immediately.
What say you, Mormons? Can we agree on that as a preliminary definition of a prophecy?
I'll get back on nore definitions later. cya!

Russianwolfe

08-25-2009, 02:19 AM

1. How does one define a prophecy objectively?

IMO, it can't be done. A Jew will see a prophecy in a completely different light than you will and maybe I will see it differently than both of you. And we will never be able to agree on a single definition.

2. And once having defined the nature of a prophecy, we must ask, How does one verify its fulfillment?

This can never be done without revelation.

Who declared that the prophecies of the virgin birth was fulfilled? In the overall scheme of contemporary events, it was a very minor event, until the significance was understood by those who receive revelation. After all, who is going to inquire of every woman named Miriam if she had intercourse before becoming pregnant? Is this the only way to verify that the prophecy was fulfilled?

Marvin

John T

08-25-2009, 09:42 AM

Wilford Woodruff said that Joseph Smith asked the local priesthood holders in the vicinity of Kirtland,Ohio to gather in a tiny 14 foot square log schoolhouse and challenged them to testify of the church and it's future. Responding to their ineffective attempts to see the future of the church and it's growth he gave this prophecy.

A prophecy is the prediction of future events and the disclosing of information that can not be known to the prophet by any ordinary means. It is utterly preposterous for you to say that Joseph Smith based his prediction on known "patterns of growth for human movements." Besides you do not have any basis in statistical data to support your claims that this is simply the inevitable result of the known "patterns of growth" and that other such movements "have made similar predictions and then fulfilled them." This is showing signs of desperation Brian.

Not only would it be impossible for Joseph Smith to base his prediction on the "usual patterns of growth for human movements" but he prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord." In effect by this statement he is saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***. Now is not this a prophecy Brian?

Besides where would Joseph Smith get this information from Brian? Also Joseph Smith did not have to announce to everyone before every prophetic statement he uttered that he was now making a prophecy.

Not happy with the prophecy of Joseph Smith that Richard provided you? How about his prophecy that the Saints were to flourish in the Rocky Mountains?

Brief bio

Roberts was born in Warrington, Lancashire, England, the son of Benjamin Roberts, an alcoholic blacksmith and ship plater, and Ann Everington, a seamstress. In the year of his birth both parents converted to the LDS Church.

Brigham Henry Roberts (March 13, 1857 – September 27, 1933) was a Mormon leader, historian, and politician who published a comprehensive history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and was denied a seat as a member of United States Congress because of his practice of plural marriage.
from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._H._Roberts

He is hardly an unbiased source of Mormon history, let alone the determiner of a Mormon "prophecy".

To determine that a prophecy is indeed a prophecy, it is necessary that the one creating the prophecy and the one fulfilling it be independent, and perhaps separated by years. That fulfills the condition of objectivity and verification. Otherwise, you have a case of mere wishful thinking followed by wish fulfillment of the one who made the wish.

Therefore, let us agree to use the definition, as supplied by Messy as a starting point:
A prophecy is the prediction of future events and the disclosing of information that can not be known to the prophet by any ordinary meansFrom that, we can also state that somewhere, there is a record of that, so the problem of objectivity is solved. Agreed?

However the problem of specificity also needs to be addressed. By specificity, I mean exactness, so that there is no room for "interpretation" by those in the future. A negative example of this is comes through the many writings of Nostradamus.

Wikipedia has this scathing biographical comment:
He is best known for his book Les Propheties ("The Prophecies"), the first edition of which appeared in 1555. Since the publication of this book, which has rarely been out of print since his death, Nostradamus has attracted a following that, along with the popular press, credits him with predicting many major world events. The prophecies have in some cases been ***imilated to the results of applying the alleged Bible code, as well as to other purported prophetic works.

Most academic sources maintain that the ***ociations made between world events and Nostradamus's quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus's quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance
In essence the purported prophecies are "fulfilled" because the readers a priori believe that they are fulfilled, and will use any ruse to make a "fulfillment" possible.

So contrary to Marvin's declaration, it IS possible to identify a prophecy, as long as it meets the criteria above: objectivity and specificity. Are you guys with me so far on this?

DISCLAIMER
My quoting Wikipedia is not an endorsement of the site, but rather it is a quick reference site for generally reliable data on historical issues.

gripper

08-25-2009, 11:28 AM

A prophecy is the prediction of future events and the disclosing of information that can not be known to the prophet by any ordinary means. He also prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord" in effect saying that as God is my witness what I have said will come to p***. His words were inspired and while this alone can not qualify him to be a prophet it is still considered to fall under the realm of prophecy.

In a similar thread, the response was that the prophecy was starting to be fulfilled. I do not know of any general authority that would agree that the subject in the opening thread, filling North and South America, is a prophecy that has come to p***. Yes, the Church has grown and missions are throughout North and South America, but it is far off from filling both continents.

John T

08-25-2009, 03:46 PM

IMO, it can't be done. A Jew will see a prophecy in a completely different light than you will and maybe I will see it differently than both of you. And we will never be able to agree on a single definition.

No, that is NOT the case.
That is why I am going very slowly in the formulation of what actually construes a prophecy

This can never be done without revelation.

Again, no. If it is only seen "through the eyes of faith" then it is not objective, rather that is a subjective and unverifiable belief, BY DEFINITION

Who declared that the prophecies of the virgin birth was fulfilled? In the overall scheme of contemporary events, it was a very minor event, until the significance was understood by those who receive revelation. After all, who is going to inquire of every woman named Miriam if she had intercourse before becoming pregnant? Is this the only way to verify that the prophecy was fulfilled?

You are jumping the gun on this one. Wait until we agree what a prophecy actually is, and then later til we discuss the verification process of a prophecy.

And again NO, the virgin birth was a MAJOR event in religious history. But we have to first cover the basics. Can you wait?

Richard

08-26-2009, 05:55 PM

In a similar thread, the response was that the prophecy was starting to be fulfilled. I do not know of any general authority that would agree that the subject in the opening thread, filling North and South America, is a prophecy that has come to p***. Yes, the Church has grown and missions are throughout North and South America, but it is far off from filling both continents.

1). An act or instance of filling.
2). Something used to fill a space, cavity, or container: a gold filling in a tooth.

Hmmm, do you see anywhere in that Noun the word full or filled?

gripper

08-26-2009, 06:13 PM

1). An act or instance of filling.
2). Something used to fill a space, cavity, or container: a gold filling in a tooth.

Hmmm, do you see anywhere in that Noun the word full or filled?

Huh? Sorry but I don't understand the point you are making.

John T

08-26-2009, 08:43 PM

Huh? Sorry but I don't understand the point you are making.

That is due to two different errors that Richard makes.
do you see anywhere in that Noun the word full or filled?

First is that he calls an adjective a noun. (I'll let him go on capitalization)

The second is more egregious in that he is attempting to derail the thread.

You see as long as the word "prophecy" is not defined, there is no way for anyone to declare that this is or is not a prophecy. That is why the definitions are critical, and I believe that the Mormons are understanding that principle. The reasons they do it are the same reasons and methods that the followers of Nostradamus have resorted to:

[the prophecies] are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power.
(from Wikipedia)
As long as the word is not defined, they can point to the guess that Smith made, then fulfilled himself as "fulfilled prophecy".

OTOH Christians do not believe that Shinola look-alike. We know that biblical-level prophecies are in conformity with scientific ****ysis, and are therefore real prophecies. It is not that the scientific method judges a prophecy, rather ALL the biblical-level prophecies conform to what will later be described as the scientific method.

That is why there are no Mormons taking up the discussion of prophecy with me. They know that I have a short fuse when they try to present their garbage as factual evidence of a provable prophecy, and fulfillment.

Besides that, they are chicken! :)

Mesenja

09-01-2009, 10:26 PM

Your opinion is insufficient as support for itself.

Correct Brian so don't make the same error by saying "Your re****al is found lacking". I also gave more then my opinion to back up my claim. I told you what the prophecy was and why Joseph Smith was speaking for God.

What makes that a prophecy?

He gave a prediction of future events and disclosed information that can not have been known by any ordinary means

Such as...?

Joseph Smith said that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world." He spoke that their would be a future event involving the church and this was fulfilled.

So it was SMITH saying this, and NOT God,right?-BH.

This is a non sequitur. Joseph Smith did not have to preface every prophecy he said with a statement that he is speaking for the Lord.

gripper

09-02-2009, 08:22 AM

Joseph Smith said that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world." He spoke that their would be a future event involving the church and this was fulfilled.

Again, no general authority would agree with this. Quite the opposite, any time this has been discussed, the response has been that it is being fulfilled, not that it has been fulfilled. Yes, there are a number of missions in South America and even MTC's but this particular prophesy cannot be placed in the completed category.

akaSeerone

09-02-2009, 09:04 AM

Russianwolfe

09-02-2009, 09:12 PM

That Smith made such a foolish statement just proves that he was the epitome of a braggart, so why anyone would defend his ****-a-mane idiocy is disturbing and shows everyone here how these mormons cannot think for themselves and will defend their false religion at all costs.

Andy

When Joseph made this statement the entire priesthood body fit into a small schoolhouse. And now look at it. There are priesthood holders on every continent and in every time zone in the world. The only place where there is an absence is China but that may soon change as the Church is actively seeking permission to enter that country.

And you still blind yourself to the progress that is being made toward the fullfilling of this prophecy. The Lord truly said, that the blind lead the blind.

Marvin

akaSeerone

09-02-2009, 09:21 PM

Have you read Hebrews?

Apparently not, because the writer of Hebrews explains explicitly that Jesus is the one and only "Priest" there is in Christendom, proving Smith and company to be liars and nothing more than con men playing Church with no other agenda than conning whoever they could for all the money they could suck out of them. Wake up already!

I don't care how big your phony priesthood is, it is not God's Priesthood and therefore anti Christ.

Andy

Fig-bearing Thistle

09-02-2009, 09:25 PM

When Joseph made this statement the entire priesthood body fit into a small schoolhouse. And now look at it. There are priesthood holders on every continent and in every time zone in the world. The only place where there is an absence is China but that may soon change as the Church is actively seeking permission to enter that country.

And you still blind yourself to the progress that is being made toward the fullfilling of this prophecy. The Lord truly said, that the blind lead the blind.

Marvin

Absolutely correct. Well said, Marvin.

And there are even priesthood holders in China, though the missionaries are not proselyting there. But the LDS Church has other arms that reach out to that nation and others even now.

akaSeerone

09-02-2009, 09:33 PM

Fig-bearing Thistle

09-02-2009, 09:46 PM

Obviously you are another one that has not read, let alone understood what the writer of Hebrews had to say about the Melchizedek Priesthood, otherwise you would not have posted something so ridiculous and exposed yourself once again for the Biblical fool that you are.

Pity!!!

I challenge you to read Hebrews and then get back to me and show me by what the writer or Hebrews said that I am wrong.

Andy

Andy, how did you become such an avid Evan Smack-Talker?

Biblical fool? LOL! You sure got that smack talk down, Andy.

Here is a verse from Hebrews 5:1

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Every high priest? What does that mean? That seems to imply multiple numbers of high priests to me.

Russianwolfe

09-02-2009, 09:47 PM

Obviously you are another one that has not read, let alone understood what the writer of Hebrews had to say about the Melchizedek Priesthood, otherwise you would not have posted something so ridiculous and exposed yourself once again for the Biblical fool that you are.

Pity!!!

I challenge you to read Hebrews and then get back to me and show me by what the writer or Hebrews said that I am wrong.

Andy

Just off the top of my head, the author of Hebrews talks about the Order of Melchizedek. You cannot have an order of anything if there is only one person. Christ is the great High Priest but even that testifies of there being other High Priest who are not considered the great High Priest. There is no need to consider one to be great if there are not lesser ones.

And to fall back on history, the Catholic church lays claim to their priest holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. So the weight of history counters your claim.

But then that is just off the top of my head. More later if I feel like it.

Marvin

akaSeerone

09-02-2009, 09:58 PM

Yet again all I get for a response is your opinion with no Bible to back up what you say, so what is up with that?

The writer of Hebrews says that Jesus and only Jesus holds the Melchizedek Priesthood and yet you try to deny what he says.....get real.....you are only exposing yourself for the novice that you are by trying to somehow make "order" something other than the Office of the Melchizedek Priesthood, held by Jesus and only Jesus, with no provisions what-so-ever for anyone on the earth.

Jesus paid for said Priesthood with His Blood and you are trying to contaminate it with pagan hypocrisy....shame on you.

Andy

gripper

09-03-2009, 08:17 AM

Just off the top of my head, the author of Hebrews talks about the Order of Melchizedek. You cannot have an order of anything if there is only one person. Christ is the great High Priest but even that testifies of there being other High Priest who are not considered the great High Priest. There is no need to consider one to be great if there are not lesser ones.

And to fall back on history, the Catholic church lays claim to their priest holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. So the weight of history counters your claim.

But then that is just off the top of my head. More later if I feel like it.

Marvin

Call for references please. Where does the Catholic church ever mention/claim holding the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Richard

09-03-2009, 08:40 AM

John T;27764]That is due to two different errors that Richard makes.
do you see anywhere in that Noun the word full or filled?

[COLOR=Black]First is that he calls an adjective a noun. (I'll let him go on capitalization)

Excuse me!
n.
The maximum or complete size or amount: repaid in full.
The highest degree or state: living life to the full.

n.
An amount needed to make full, complete, or satisfied: eat one's fill.
Material for filling a container, cavity, or p***age.
A built-up piece of land; an embankment.
The material, such as earth or gravel, used for this.

The second is more egregious in that he is attempting to derail the thread.

You see as long as the word "prophecy"[COLOR="DarkRed"] is not defined,

Joseph Smith, "I want to say to you before the Lord,

John T

09-04-2009, 09:34 AM

Excuse me!
n.
The maximum or complete size or amount: repaid in full.
The highest degree or state: living life to the full.

n.
An amount needed to make full, complete, or satisfied: eat one's fill.
Material for filling a container, cavity, or p***age.
A built-up piece of land; an embankment.
The material, such as earth or gravel, used for this.

Noun:
Person, place or thing.

Please find a full for me.

Mesenja

09-04-2009, 01:19 PM

Call for references please. Where does the Catholic church ever mention/claim holding the Melchizedek Priesthood?

Can everyone involved with this totally irrelevant debate please focus on the topic at hand?

Mesenja

09-04-2009, 02:06 PM

In May of 1834 while living at the Isaac Morley farm,Joseph Smith prophesied that "this Church will fill North and South America— it will fill the world". Joseph Smith prophetic vision for the destiny of the Saints involved much more than a confined area in the eastern United States. We now have a presence that spans the globe. Now you can quibble and argue over what events yet have to happen to qualify for this prophecy to be fulfilled. The fact remains that the church started out with six members and despite opposition and sometimes violent persecution what Joseph Smith said came true and "the Standard of Truth has been erected;no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing;persecutions may rage,mobs may combine,armies may ***emble,calumny may defame,but the truth of God will go forth boldly,nobly,and independent,till it has penetrated every continent,visited every clime,swept every country,and sounded in every ear,till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done”. Oh wait that is another fulfilled prophecy. :)

John T

09-04-2009, 10:40 PM

Oh wait that is another fulfilled prophecy. :)

Until you guys begin with a definition of "prophecy" truly is, and by what standards you can ascertain if indeed something IS a prophecy, you are merely talking AT each other.

Maybe this thread should be re***led "****ing ii the wind, part 2" :D

Magdalena

09-05-2009, 12:18 AM

Fig-bearing Thistle

09-05-2009, 07:50 AM

This whole conversation reminds me of bert10. He prophecies that there will be earthquakes, tornadoes and famine on the earth. That's a pretty safe bet.

Joseph Smith's prediction was wishful thinking. Those who believed in him tried to make it come true. It wasn't a fullfilled prophecy. Compared to all the people on the earth, the number who have known anything about mormonism is very very small. And of all the people who have heard of it, the number who have a negative perception of it is very large.

You can never prove these things. Even Jesus can't be proved. So this whole topic about showing and proving is an exercise in futility for the person determined to remain a dis-believer.

Richard

09-05-2009, 08:01 AM

Until you guys begin with a definition of "prophecy" truly is, and by what standards you can ascertain if indeed something IS a prophecy, you are merely talking AT each other.

Maybe this thread should be re***led "****ing ii the wind, part 2" :D

Well, lets just say the Joseph was only talking to us, and he did it in a most unusual way, "I want to say to you before the Lord". Of course you and I don't normally talk at each other this way, why? Well maybe we are not sure enough to make such a claim.

Oh, well, if your satisfied that it was only a conversation, I have no problem with that, as for me, I think it was a conversation that he confidenly understood, saw the future, and proclaimed it as God is my witness. Interesting.

Regards, Richard. :D

Richard

09-05-2009, 08:09 AM

Magdalena;29124]This whole conversation reminds me of bert10. He prophecies that there will be earthquakes, tornadoes and famine on the earth. That's a pretty safe bet.

Joseph Smith's prediction was wishful thinking. Those who believed in him tried to make it come true. It wasn't a fullfilled prophecy. Compared to all the people on the earth, the number who have known anything about mormonism is very very small. And of all the people who have heard of it, the number who have a negative perception of it is very large.

Good points Magdalena, you would think such an obvious cult, with a Book that is fiction, a so called Prophet that many think committed adultery, 11 witnesses that joined in the fraud, a book of Abraham that came from 11 fragments, committed members to Polygamny, had a moment in History of terrible consequences, Mountain Meadows M***sacure, etc, etc, and now another 170 years later, still a growing, thiriving, expanding church.

Hmmm, WHY? ;)

Richard.

Russianwolfe

09-05-2009, 08:43 AM

This whole conversation reminds me of bert10. He prophecies that there will be earthquakes, tornadoes and famine on the earth. That's a pretty safe bet.

Joseph Smith's prediction was wishful thinking. Those who believed in him tried to make it come true. It wasn't a fullfilled prophecy. Compared to all the people on the earth, the number who have known anything about mormonism is very very small. And of all the people who have heard of it, the number who have a negative perception of it is very large.

And the number of yeast organisms in a loaf of bread isn't much compared to the number of particles of wheat, but look at the effect it has. Wasn't there a statement by Christ about his followers being the leaven?

Marvin

Richard

09-05-2009, 08:51 AM

And the number of yeast organisms in a loaf of bread isn't much compared to the number of particles of wheat, but look at the effect it has. Wasn't there a statement by Christ about his followers being the leaven?

Marvin

Another very, very good point. :)

Mesenja

09-05-2009, 03:24 PM

A prediction is a statement or claim that a particular event will occur in the future in more certain terms than a forecast. If a prediction is related by an individual in a sermon or other public forum through the means of divine inspiration,revelation,or interpretation then it is a prophecy.

Joseph Smith made a prediction of future events and disclosed information that can not be known to him by any ordinary means.

"I want to say to you before the Lord,that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight,but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

He not only said this in a public forum but prefaced his statement by saying the words "I want to say to you before the Lord". In effect by this statement he was saying that as God is my witness what I have said is true and it will all come to p***.

John T

09-05-2009, 11:50 PM

Well, lets just say the Joseph was only talking to us, and he did it in a most unusual way, "I want to say to you before the Lord". Of course you and I don't normally talk at each other this way, why? Well maybe we are not sure enough to make such a claim. Regards, Richard. :D

I am not picking on you Richard, but that bit about "Well, lets just say the Joseph was only talking to us, and he did it in a most unusual way" is EXACTLY WHY there needs to be a cogent definition of prophecy, especially as it refers to Scripture. Thar is because Peter says it succinctly, "No prophecy is of private interpretation."

Therefore, I propose two (at first) guidelines to agree about when we says, "This is a prophecy"

1) We recognize the seriousness of prophecy and state without reservation that the nature and reputation of God is at stake when we sat "This is or is not a prophecy from God, irrespective of the person's claim who utters the prophecy.

2) We recognize that a prophecy must be written down in plain language. This rules out the ambiguous quatrains of Nostradamus, as does guideline 1 being prophetic.

Richard

09-06-2009, 07:00 AM

I am not picking on you Richard, but that bit about "Well, lets just say that Joseph was only talking to us, and he did it in a most unusual way" is EXACTLY WHY there needs to be a cogent definition of prophecy, especially as it refers to Scripture. Thar is because Peter says it succinctly, "No prophecy is of private interpretation."

Therefore, I propose two (at first) guidelines to agree about when we says, "This is a prophecy"

1) We recognize the seriousness of prophecy and state without reservation that the nature and reputation of God is at stake when we sat "This is or is not a prophecy from God, irrespective of the person's claim who utters the prophecy.

2) We recognize that a prophecy must be written down in plain language. This rules out the ambiguous quatrains of Nostradamus, as does guideline 1 being prophetic.

3). Revelation 19:10

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Wow, and Peter stated that no Prophecy is of private interpretation.

Billyray

09-06-2009, 08:25 AM

Even Jesus can't be proved.

Can you elaborate on this for me in light of the fact that we have multiple distinct books in the NT that attest to Jesus.

Billyray

09-06-2009, 08:44 AM

"I want to say to you before the Lord,that you know no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it. It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight,but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

That is a vague prophecy. What cons***utes that this has been fulfilled? 1% 5% 10% of the population becoming LDS?

LDS membership is 13 Million members worldwide, with lets say 6 million who are active. Population of the world is 6 billion. Thus 0.1% of the world population are active LDS. I would hardly consider this filling the world. (Note--you can argue with the numbers but this is a good ball park estimate)

Richard

09-06-2009, 11:31 AM

That is a vague prophecy. What cons***utes that this has been fulfilled? 1% 5% 10% of the population becoming LDS?

LDS membership is 13 Million members worldwide, with lets say 6 million who are active. Population of the world is 6 billion. Thus 0.1% of the world population are active LDS. I would hardly consider this filling the world. (Note--you can argue with the numbers but this is a good ball park estimate)

You are under the false impression that all prophecies are immediate or soon to be. What part of Revelations, (BIBLE), would you consider fulfilled?
1% 5%10%. Your point is with little merit.

R.

Mesenja

09-06-2009, 11:40 AM

Both of us interpret the meaning of this prophecy differently and whether it was fulfilled or not.

That is a vague prophecy. What cons***utes that this has been fulfilled? 1% 5% 10% of the population becoming LDS? LDS membership is 13 Million members worldwide, with lets say 6 million who are active. Population of the world is 6 billion. Thus 0.1% of the world population are active LDS. I would hardly consider this filling the world. (Note--you can argue with the numbers but this is a good ball park estimate)

I agree with John that we should not only begin with a definition of what prophecy is but agree as to what Joseph Smith meant by this prophetic statement.

Until you guys begin with a definition of "prophecy" truly is, and by what standards you can ascertain if indeed something IS a prophecy, you are merely talking AT each other.

Otherwise we will just be talking right past each other which we do here anyway but it would be nice if the ground rules and definitions were set.

Mesenja

09-06-2009, 11:45 AM

And I have not only given a definition of prophecy but some of the standards that prophecy is to be judged by.

Until you guys begin with a definition of "prophecy" truly is,and by what standards you can ascertain if indeed something IS a prophecy,you are merely talking AT each other. Maybe this thread should be re***led "****ing ii the wind,Part 2" :D

I think the question that you should be asking right now is when will you give us your response to this question?

Richard

09-06-2009, 10:15 PM

Noun:
Person, place or thing.

Please find a full for me.

:)n.
An act or instance of filling.
Something used to fill a space, cavity, or container: a gold filling in a tooth.
An edible mixture used to fill pastries, sandwiches, or cakes: a pie filling. :D

"but this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world." Not used as a adjective, in this case a verb.

Billyray

09-06-2009, 10:54 PM

You are under the false impression that all prophecies are immediate or soon to be. What part of Revelations, (BIBLE), would you consider fulfilled?
1% 5%10%. Your point is with little merit.

R.
But the point of this thread is to show a prophecy that HAS COME TRUE not one that has not. For example you brought up prophecies in Revelation, if these prophecies have not yet been fulfilled I could not use them as an example of "prophecy that has come true" which is the ***le of this thread.

John T

09-06-2009, 11:20 PM

And I have not only given a definition of prophecy but some of the standards that prophecy is to be judged by.

I think the question that you should be asking right now is when will you give us your response to this question?

Thank you for the approval.

However, because we have had some here who doubt the veracity of the autographa, I propose these also, as a way of digging into and describing EXACTLY what a prophecy is, so there should be no doubt on essential points.

Here are two more guidelines, I suggest that are important, and the reasons why it is so

Guideline #3: Verifying when the "Holy Book" was written:
prophecy must be dated to be authenticated. For example, the "Dead Sea Scrolls" were discovered in 1947 to 1956 and the place and the scrolls are sometimes called by the same name, Qumran . It had libraries with all the Old Testament books except for the book of Esther. In 68 AD, Roman armies destroyed the Qumran community. Therefore, all the books found in the Dead Sea Scrolls library were written (OR copied) before 68 AD.

Guideline #4: Verifying that the "Holy Book" has not been changed:
Essentially, the prophecy must not contain anachronisms, fort he words must conform to the same time-space milieu

We must be able to verify that the words have not been changed from the time they were originally made.
Logic tells us that the words are about past events only - meaning the words are from inside time-space

You see, I am trying to build a case whereby we can ALL agree that the questioned prophecy does meet the test of logic, and experience, so we can agree that this or that fits the criteria.

I have several others to put forth, so please bear with me on this. To me prophecy is so extremely important that we must agree that there are objective criteria, and we do not fall back on the "faith" canard that only those who have faith can see this is or is not a prophecy.

Are you with me so far?

Richard

09-07-2009, 09:02 AM

But the point of this thread is to show a prophecy that HAS COME TRUE not one that has not. For example you brought up prophecies in Revelation, if these prophecies have not yet been fulfilled I could not use them as an example of "prophecy that has come true" which is the ***le of this thread.

Both parts of Isaiah and Revelations have come true and are still ongoing.

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/19614/A-bonus-book-Isaiah-combines-prophecy-sound-thinking-doctrine.html

"Isaiah also is appreciated for his prophecies of the future. There was not much of the future of the world that escaped Isaiah. He talked about the Millennium, identified Satan, explained the restoration of the gospel. He was very strong in his writings of apostasy and idols. Isaiah saw the temples of the latter-days. He's the one who said that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains.

"Isaiah made that prophecy about `a book that is sealed.' (Isa. 29:11.) The very financing for the publication of the Book of Mormon came about because of a revelation Isaiah gave in Old Testament days.

"One of the exciting aspects of studying the Old Testament, particularly Isaiah, is that its teachings are as modern as today. Isaiah's writings are timeless.

Chronology of Revelation
"Revelation is divided into seven cycles of events. The chapters of Revelation present a series of events, full of imagery and metaphor which detail the chronology of God's judgement on the world.
Exact interpretations of the chronology of Revelation vary extensively. The work may be interpreted literally, as a chronological list of events that will occur as the time of Revelation grows near. At the same time, the imagery can be seen to contain symbolic commentaries on the world during the historical period in which Revelation was written, or "pre-commentaries" on our world today." From Wikipedia

Mesenja

09-07-2009, 05:11 PM

I would like to preface this post by recapping the previous four fulfilled prophecies made by Joseph Smith that both Richard and myself have posted here.

1. Joseph Smith prophesied that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

2. Joseph Smith prophesied that despite the oftentimes violent opposition that the church faced in this period of it's history that "the truth of God will go forth boldly,nobly,and independent,till it has penetrated every continent,visited every clime,swept every country,and sounded in every ear,till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done”.

3. Joseph Smith prophesied that "within five years we should be out of the power of our old enemies,whether they were apostates of of the world;and told the brethren to record it,that when it comes to p***,they need not say they had forgotten the saying." This was said at a meeting held in Nauvoo in February 25th,1844 and by 1849,the Saints were gathered in Utah (the first wave entered the Salt Lake area in July of 1847.

4. Joseph Smith prophesied that the saints would yet go to the Rocky Mountains. He said "I am gazing upon the valleys of those mountains.There are some men here who shall do a great work in that land.There is Anson [Call],he shall go and shall ***ist in building up cities from one end of the country to the other;and you [pointing to Shadrach Roundy and others],shall perform as great a work as has been done by man,so that the nations of the earth shall be astonished,and many of them will be gathered in that land and ***ist in building cities and temples,and Israel shall be made to rejoice." [B. H. Roberts,Comprehensive History of the Church,Vol. 2,Chapter 51,pp.181-182]This was also recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants 49:25.

Dan Jones to Serve a Mission in Wales

Joseph Smith,the night before he was killed,when he was a captive in Carthage Jail prophesied that Dan Jones would survive to serve a mission in Wales.

Soon after Dr. Richards retired to the bed which Joseph had left,and when all were apparently fast asleep,Joseph whispered to Dan Jones "Are you afraid to die?" Dan said,"Has that time come,think you? Engaged in such a cause I do not think that death would have many terrors." Joseph replied,"You will yet see Wales,and fulfill the mission appointed you before you die." [History of the Church,Volume 6,page 601]

In August of 1844 Dan Jones along with Wilford Woodruff served a mission in Wales. He also started the first foreign-language magazines for the Church,Prophwyd y Jubili,Neu Seren y Saints (Prophet of Jubilee,New Star of Saints).

Mesenja

09-07-2009, 06:17 PM

Joseph Predicts His Death

Joseph Smith wrote in his journal on Sa****ay,June 22,1844,now recorded in History of the Church,Volume 6,page 546:

I told Stephen Markham that if I and Hyrum were ever taken again we should be m***acred,or I was not a prophet of God.

On June 27,1844,Joseph Smith,age 38,and his loyal brother Hyrum were shot in the Carthage Jail by a mob.

Mesenja

09-07-2009, 06:30 PM

Prediction of Stakes in Boston and New York

Joseph predicted that New York City and Boston would one day have stakes [geographic areas comprising multiple congregations] this said despite having already being driven out of New York and the Eastern United States.

"In the great cities,as Boston,New York,etc.,there shall be stakes." (History of the Church,Volume 6,page 319).

Billyray

09-07-2009, 06:48 PM

1. Joseph Smith prophesied that "...this church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world."

Lets just look at the first two to start with.

Do you think that "it (LDS church) will fill the world" has been fulfilled when there are less than 0.1% of the world are active LDS?

2. Joseph Smith prophesied that despite the oftentimes violent opposition that the church faced in this period of it's history that "the truth of God will go forth boldly,nobly,and independent,till it has penetrated every continent,visited every clime,swept every country,and sounded in every ear,till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done”.

1. sounded in every ear

2. till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done

Has this been fulfilled?

Mesenja

09-07-2009, 06:59 PM

Prediction of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon

In March of 1829,Joseph Smith received a revelation recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 5:11-13 about the need to have three witnesses to see the gold plates that he was about to translate.

11 And in addition to your testimony,the testimony of three of my servants,whom I shall call and ordain,unto whom I will show these things,and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.
12 Yea,they shall know of a surety that these things are true,for from heaven will I declare it unto them.
13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;

Joseph Smith asked Oliver Cowdery,Martin Harris,and David Whitmer to go into the woods with him and pray for the promised divine manifestation. They all wrote their testimony found in the preface of every Book of Mormon that they had "seen the engravings which are upon the plates;and they have been shown unto us by the power of God,and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness,that an angel of God came down from heaven,and he brought and laid before our eyes,that we beheld and saw the plates,and the engravings thereon;and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father,and our Lord Jesus Christ,that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. "

Every one of these men even until the day of their deaths never denied their testimony that an angel of God has shown them the Book of Mormon. Despite excomunication and ill will towards the church which gave them ample reason and opportunity to expose a fraud they never did so.

Russianwolfe

09-07-2009, 07:00 PM

Lets just look at the first two to start with.

Do you think that "it (LDS church) will fill the world" has been fulfilled when there are less than 0.1% of the world are active LDS?

1. sounded in every ear

2. till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done

Has this been fulfilled?

I pointed out in another post that yeast is very small in number compared to the particles of flour and yet look at the effect it has. Didn't Christ make a comparison like that?

Marvin

Mesenja

09-07-2009, 07:18 PM

Condemned to Execution,Joseph Prophesies of Deliverance

In the fall of 1838,mobs from Missouri captured several LDS leaders,including Joseph Smith,and planned to shoot in the presence of their families and the Saints. Joseph Smith uttered this prophecy to his fellow prisoners:"Be of good cheer,brethren,the word of the Lord came to me last night that our lives should be given us,and that whatever we may suffer during this captivity,not one of our lives should be taken[Millennial Star,Volume 38,page 403]."

"Of this prophecy,"Elder Parley P. Pratt said, "I testify in the name of the Lord,and though spoken in secret,its public fulfillment and the miraculous escape of each of us is too notorious to need my testimony[footnote:Pratt’s Autobiography page 210]."

John T

09-07-2009, 07:44 PM

Below are two prime reasons why I asked you all to hold your horses regarding the prophecy definition. The most recent prophecies that M posts are mere predictions, and do not rise to the level of prophecy, and that is a very high bar to reach..

Here is why.

First, the predictions do NOT involve the nature of God intrinsically. In the latest batch, NOWHERE does JS say, “Thus says the Lord:… “

Notice how Messy’s three examples violate the first principle, and “perhaps” the second in that they were not written down before the death of JS, and because the date of the purported prediction, and the day of his execution by a mob are a mere 5 days apart, it is not necessarily an unforeseen event, given the nature of his legal problems.

1) We recognize the seriousness of prophecy and state without reservation that the nature and reputation of God is at stake when we say "This is or is not a prophecy from God, irrespective of the person's claim who utters the prophecy.

2) We recognize that a prophecy must be written down in plain language. This rules out the ambiguous quatrains of Nostradamus, as does guideline 1 being prophetic.
Here are further guidelines that also rule out Mess Dude’s examples of prediction being raised to the level of prophecy.

Guideline #5: Self-fulfilling Prophetic Events (by the Prophet’s Followers):

If a religion has prophetic events that can be fulfilled by the followers of the prophet (especially after the prophet has died), then it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. By logic alone, such predictions are not prophetic verses. Was JFK a prophet when he said that there will be a man on the moon before the end of 1969? The answer is NO because NASA made it happen, and the US taxpayers footed the bill.

Consider the Christian viewpoint based on Jesus prophecy that the gospel will be preached worldwide.

"This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come" (Matthew 24:14).

We see another prophecy called the Great Commission.

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20).

So Christians are self-fulfilling Jesus’ prophecies based on their beliefs and following Jesus’ command to tell all people about the Messiah and eternal salvation.

It works both ways, fellows, so that, along with the others does not single one group out, and exclude it a priori.

Guideline #6: Ultimate Test for a Prophet: Prophecies will be fulfilled AFTER the prophet is dead:

Events that occur during a prophet’s lifetime are suspect as being prophetic for several reasons:

1.First, there is a probability that the prophecy has a 50% or higher chance (i.e. even as high as a 99% chance) of a successful outcome because the prophet lives so close to the event. For example, was Reagan being prophetic when he famously said, “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall.” The answer is no because he was planning to bankrupt the Soviet Union because they could not develop effective countermeasures to stop the SDI and the 600 ship US Navy.

Thus the fall of Berlin, and the rest of what happened in that evil empire happened when he was in stage three of Alzheimer’s.

Another example comes from the 2003 Iraq war, which we are still fighting. (Has it been THAT long??) Never mind that the WMD were never found, for Saddam did everything he could do to cause the entire world to believe he had them, but the important thing for this discussion was the general belief that the Iraquis would be shouting in the streets because the US liberated them, and deposed Saddam.

We all know how that worked out. In general, we can conclude that prophetic words about current events by a living prophet are suspect of coming from outside time-space.

2.Second, it is relatively easy for one to make a prediction based upon the current events, but to make a prediction about several centuries in the future is another, entirely situation, especially if the followers of the one making a prediction are not involved in any part of the fulfilling event whatsoever.

The prime difference between a prediction and a prophecy lies in the DISTANCE that the prophet has from the fulfilling event. If we are able to demonstrate that a person makes a prophecy about events foreign to his present milieu, then the person has received knowledge that is outside his time and space.

If the person consistently and ACCURATELY foretells events that happens long after his p***ing, then indeed the person is a prophet, and logically, that person’s words will lead to spiritual truth. To think otherwise defies both logic and common sense.

Make sense so far?

Fig-bearing Thistle

09-07-2009, 08:52 PM

The prime difference between a prediction and a prophecy lies in the DISTANCE that the prophet has from the fulfilling event. If we are able to demonstrate that a person makes a prophecy about events foreign to his present milieu, then the person has received knowledge that is outside his time and space.

If the person consistently and ACCURATELY foretells events that happens long after his p***ing, then indeed the person is a prophet, and logically, that person’s words will lead to spiritual truth. To think otherwise defies both logic and common sense.

Make sense so far?
[/SIZE]

If what you say is true, then because most of Joseph's prophecies are of events foreign to his own milieu, the jury is still out, and we must wait until perhaps the ushering in of the Millennium before we can p*** judgment either way.

johnd

09-07-2009, 09:55 PM

John T

09-07-2009, 10:38 PM

If what you say is true, then because most of Joseph's prophecies are of events foreign to his own milieu, the jury is still out, and we must wait until perhaps the ushering in of the Millennium before we can p*** judgment either way.

Sorta, but that is merely one aspect of the principles that determine what a prophecy actually is. There are other aspects to the issue of determining a prophecy.

I am very slowly introducing these principles (six so far) so that there is a common basis for understanding exactly what a prophecy is, and is not. Hopefully you all will find them interesting, and compelling.

The examples that Mes brought up fail on several of these logical and common sense principles, as I demonstrated. And personally this is an important issue, for without these definitions, we can get different examples of what a prophecy is, as we have seen in the differences between Richard's examples, and Mesenga's.

Fig, can you share some of these purported prophecies by JS that will be fulfilled much later?

Billyray

09-07-2009, 10:57 PM

I pointed out in another post that yeast is very small in number compared to the particles of flour and yet look at the effect it has. Didn't Christ make a comparison like that?

Marvin

Leaven/yeast in the Bible is often a representation of sin. So if you are comparing the LDS church to Leaven I won't argue with you.

Russianwolfe

09-07-2009, 11:26 PM

Leaven/yeast in the Bible is often a representation of sin. So if you are comparing the LDS church to Leaven I won't argue with you.

CFR.

And it was Christ talking of the people of the church when he compared them to the yeast and the world to dough. Are you so lacking in knowlege and understanding that you do not know this and attempt to twist the words of the Savior to imply that the people are evil? This is despicable, even for you.

And when the Lord compared the leaven of the Pharisees, he was very explicit and when he was comparing the church to leaven he was very general. And I thought you would know and understand this kind of thing. Boy am I surprised.

Marvin

Fig-bearing Thistle

09-07-2009, 11:58 PM

Fig, can you share some of these purported prophecies by JS that will be fulfilled much later?

Well, many of them are re-iterations of the Savior's prophecies. So, I'm sure you don't want to count those.

But there are some changes here (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_m/1) in Matthew 24.

Here's one you can address: Article of Faith #10 is a prophecy concerning the New Jerusalem:

“We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent..."

Most Christians believe in the gathering of the Jews, but have little or noting to say about the restoration of the lost tribes of Israel.

Here's (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/45/68#68) another one:

D&C 45:66-70
66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to p*** among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

johnd

09-08-2009, 07:17 AM

I have known many LDS who were nicer and more family oriented than most Christians (sadly). But LDS was founded by a false prophet who excluded himself from the priesthood.

Talk about a fulfilled Mormon Prophecy (http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/mormons/wasjsaprophet.html)

Ignoring the fact that LDS was founded on false prophecy / lies?

Ok, proof LDS is a blind faith.

Thank you very much.

Billyray

09-08-2009, 07:31 AM

Ok, proof LDS is a blind faith.

Thank you very much.
Besides your testimony what is the best evidence for Mormonism?

Billyray

09-08-2009, 07:40 AM

Leaven/yeast in the Bible is often a representation of sin. So if you are comparing the LDS church to Leaven I won't argue with you.

CFR

Easton's Bible Dictionary
(1.) Hebrews seor (Exodus 12:15, 19; 13:7; Leviticus 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.

(2.) Hebrews hamets, properly "ferment." In Numbers 6:3, "vinegar of wine" is more correctly "fermented wine." In Exodus 13:7, the proper rendering would be, "Unfermented things [Hebrews matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened m*** [seor] in all thy borders." The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is "a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion."

The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Leviticus 2:11; 7:12; 8:2; Numbers 6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1 Corinthians 5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Matthew 13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matthew 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8).

Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language

1. (n.) Yeast or any substance that causes dough to rise, usually by fermentation.

2. (n.) Anything which makes a general ***imilating (especially a corrupting) change in the m***.

3. (v. t.) To make light by the action of leaven; to cause to ferment.

4. (v. t.) To imbue; to infect; to vitiate.
http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/leaven.htm

Russianwolfe

09-08-2009, 07:51 AM

All of these defintions don't justify the comment you made. It was plainly and clearly an attempt to twist what I was saying into something that I was not even implying. Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness? Haven't you violated that commandment with your comment?

Marvin

Easton's Bible Dictionary
(1.) Hebrews seor (Exodus 12:15, 19; 13:7; Leviticus 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.

(2.) Hebrews hamets, properly "ferment." In Numbers 6:3, "vinegar of wine" is more correctly "fermented wine." In Exodus 13:7, the proper rendering would be, "Unfermented things [Hebrews matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened m*** [seor] in all thy borders." The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is "a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion."

The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Leviticus 2:11; 7:12; 8:2; Numbers 6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1 Corinthians 5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Matthew 13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matthew 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8).

Noah Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language

1. (n.) Yeast or any substance that causes dough to rise, usually by fermentation.

2. (n.) Anything which makes a general ***imilating (especially a corrupting) change in the m***.

3. (v. t.) To make light by the action of leaven; to cause to ferment.

4. (v. t.) To imbue; to infect; to vitiate.
http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/leaven.htm

John T

09-08-2009, 04:52 PM

Well, many of them are re-iterations of the Savior's prophecies. So, I'm sure you don't want to count those.
.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

fig, siknce that is a re-iteration of the Bible (New Jerusalem), and it came before JSt, BOTH of us should automatically reject the LATTER, AND ACCEPT THE FORMER.

From my viewpoint, since JS copied whole chapters from the Bible, that is sufficiently suspicious to make anything with direct parallels to the words of the Bible as a probable forgery from JS, and thus rejected out of hand.

That is a lofical ***umption, ya think?

johnd

09-08-2009, 05:24 PM

Besides your testimony what is the best evidence for Mormonism?

http://mrm.org (http://mrm.org/) (Mormon Research Ministry)

Billyray

09-08-2009, 07:32 PM

All of these defintions don't justify the comment you made. It was plainly and clearly an attempt to twist what I was saying into something that I was not even implying. Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness? Haven't you violated that commandment with your comment?
Marvin
Here is my post

Leaven/yeast in the Bible is often a representation of sin. So if you are comparing the LDS church to Leaven I won't argue with you.

It is true that yeast is OFTEN a representation of sin. Below is a section of the Bible Dictionary that I have previously quoted

Leaven
". . .It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matthew 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8). . .
2. (n.) Anything which makes a general ***imilating (especially a corrupting) change in the m***."
http://eastonsbibledictionary.com/leaven.htm

I think that you take issue with Matt 13:33
"33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough."

Just so you know different people interpret this verse in different ways, i.e. not like YOU do.

Perspective 1
"In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world." Easton Bible Dictionary

Perspective 2
Another illustration of corruption in the kingdom community: the parable of the leaven in the meal. Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” a. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven: Jesus used a surprising picture here. Many, if not most, regard this as a beautiful picture of the kingdom of God working its way through the whole world. [B]Yet leaven is consistently used as a picture of sin and corruption (especially in the P***over narrative of Exodus 12:8, 12:15-20). Again, both the content and the context point towards this being a description of corruption in the kingdom community."
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4013.htm

IF perspective 2 is the correct interpretation then the LDS church fulfills this statement by Christ in that it brings corruption and false doctrine into the body of Christ.

John T

09-08-2009, 11:06 PM

Here is the final guideline, and a summary statement. I sincerely hope that these seven will provide a framework to have further discussion

Guideline #7: Can the Prophecy be Verified to be Factual

This is the Achilles heel for many erstwhile prophecies, for it requires a twofold documentation of date and documentation, in addition to the previous six guidelines presented. If there is one or both of these verifications missing, then the prophecy is suspect. What this means is that both the date and the documentation of the prophecy are required.

NOTE: Using common sense regarding date is important in this. It is not necessary to require exactness to say that Ezekiel said something on Tishri 6 at 3:44PM; it is sufficient to say that he said this in 488 BC, two years before the Babylonian Captivity. Then, people did not measure time we do today; thus to superimpose a 21st century on the date of a prophecy is absurd.

As pointed out above, the prophecy must be verified. Peter said “No prophecy is of private interpretation”. That means that either of these two conditions indicate a bogus prophecy.

1.The religion alone offers proof (in group argument)
2.The proof is only “seen through the eyes of faith.” (same)

This guideline prohibits examination of the virgin birth. ["Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel {God is with us}" (Isaiah 7:14).] Although it is a major tenet of the Christian faith (and I am NOT disputing it) It is impossible to verify by any means that Mary was indeed a virgin at the conception of Jesus.

In the same manner, I state that there is absolutely no documented (verifiable, and objective) proof that Muhammad actually had visitations from the Archangel Gabriel to review the Qur'an each year or that Moroni actually met JS on Cumorah. These ideas are beliefs that require "blind faith."

OTOH If the event is related to a religion and the event can be documented, then it will be considered to be prophetic. Since it is a documented event, it does not require faith to examine the documents.

These guidelines are not mine, and are from the Einstein Scientific Method http://www.harvardhouse.com/Gabriel-to-Daniel_1.htm . However, the expositions are mine.

In summary, the seven prophecy guidelines are that the foretold event :

Must be written down
Precede the foretold event
Must not have been changed
Must not be fulfilled by the prophet
Must not be fulfilled by the prophet’s followers
Must be fulfilled after the prophet’s death
Must be verified to occur.

Each of these seven principles is logical and common sense. Together, they form a rubric that gives everyone who cares to examine if a prediction is indeed a prophecy, or not the same tool box. Therefore all are working with the same guiding materials.

That is why I asked some to not jump the gun. It was a lot of material to digest. :).

Wise old Socrates stated "The unexamined life is not worth living". Just as Important is this "The unexamined faith is not worth believing"

John T

09-14-2009, 05:49 PM

Can any of you deal with the scientific definition of prophecy, and then compare it to the Bible, BoM or Smith?

Mesenja

09-21-2009, 11:49 AM

Can any of you deal with the scientific definition of prophecy, and then compare it to the Bible,Book of Mormon or Smith?

So no I can not apply scientific methodology to examine prophecy.

John T

09-21-2009, 04:38 PM

So no I can not apply scientific methodology to examine prophecy.

Thank you for responding, Mesenja.

So what are the criteria that you use to say "this is a prophecy, or is not?"Any number of snarky replies begin now, so I will refrain, and ask you straight up hoow do you determine if this or that is a prophecy?

In my mind, two fundamental issues arise regarding the nature of prophecy:

1. Is that the message must demonstrate knowledge that comes from beyond the here and now of the prophet's milieu.

2. Is that because the prophet' words must be beyond the mundane things of his time (the God issue), it must invoke the name of the Lord somehow, and have the fulfillment giving glory to God.

Can you agree to those two basics?

Shalom,

Mesenja

11-14-2009, 10:59 AM

A prophecy can still be considered prophetic without the prophet invoking the name of the Lord.

2. Is that because the prophet' words must be beyond the mundane things of his time (the God issue),it must invoke the name of the Lord somehow,and have the fulfillment giving glory to God.

Can you agree to those two basics?

John T

11-14-2009, 01:49 PM

A prophecy can still be considered prophetic without the prophet invoking the name of the Lord.

Then you are failing to distinguish between prophecy and prediction, and that makes discussion meaningless if there is no agreement on the meanings of the terms discussed.

And if that is the case, any wishful thinking by anyone could be erroneously be called prophecy; that surely diminishes your LDS position about Munson, and his predecessors. Still do not want to define prophecy further?

Richard

11-15-2009, 06:57 PM

Then you are failing to distinguish between prophecy and prediction, and that makes discussion meaningless if there is no agreement on the meanings of the terms discussed.

And if that is the case, any wishful thinking by anyone could be erroneously be called prophecy; that surely diminishes your LDS position about Munson, and his predecessors. Still do not want to define prophecy further?

Here is a prediction for you, but I would consider it a Prophesy, but when it happens you will no doubt brush it off as just a another lucky prediction.

"When the Cons***ution . . . hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the 'Mormon' Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it." "Will the Cons***ution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, 'The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread [the original quotation of Joseph Smith does not mention the Cons***ution]. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.' It will be so."79

79. JD 7:15.

John T

11-15-2009, 08:34 PM

Here is a prediction for you, but I would consider it a Prophesy, but when it happens you will no doubt brush it off as just a another lucky prediction. 79. JD 7:15.

Please confine yourself to the issue at hand, and do not add extraneous issues.

I was addressing Mesenja, saying

Then you are failing to distinguish between prophecy and prediction, and that makes discussion meaningless if there is no agreement on the meanings of the terms discussed.

And if that is the case, any wishful thinking by anyone could be erroneously be called prophecy; that surely diminishes your LDS position about Munson, and his predecessors. Still do not want to define prophecy further?

The issue at hand is Messy's failure to make a distinguishing difference between prophecy and prediction. Until that is settled no one on the LDS side can accurately postulate that anything is prophecy.

While that is indeed an interesting statement, it has no bearing on the subject of defining the nature of prophecy. Then, having done that, we also must compare that with previous, similar statements to see if they fall under the logical, and Biblical rubric that I made in here (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showpost.php?p=31157&postcount=4) (betcha don't bother to look).

Until that happens, you have no business calling anything a prophecy.

Richard

11-16-2009, 12:36 AM

Please confine yourself to the issue at hand, and do not add extraneous issues.

I was addressing Mesenja, saying

The issue at hand is Messy's failure to make a distinguishing difference between prophecy and prediction. Until that is settled no one on the LDS side can accurately postulate that anything is prophecy.

While that is indeed an interesting statement, it has no bearing on the subject of defining the nature of prophecy. Then, having done that, we also must compare that with previous, similar statements to see if they fall under the logical, and Biblical rubric that I made in here (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showpost.php?p=31157&postcount=4) (betcha don't bother to look).

Until that happens, you have no business calling anything a prophecy.

Don't need to, Joseph stated prophesies came true or will still come true.

r.

John T

11-17-2009, 12:46 PM

Don't need to, Joseph stated prophesies came true or will still come true. r.
Your position takes the illogical position that makes you alone as the sole arbiter of the meaning of the word "prophecy"

The issue at hand is Messy's failure to make a distinguishing difference between prophecy and prediction. Until that is settled no one on the LDS side can accurately postulate that anything is prophecy.

You are doing as Messy did.

Richard

11-17-2009, 08:05 PM

Your position takes the illogical position that makes you alone as the sole arbiter of the meaning of the word "prophecy"

The issue at hand is Messy's failure to make a distinguishing difference between prophecy and prediction. Until that is settled no one on the LDS side can accurately postulate that anything is prophecy.

You are doing as Messy did.

What ever, I call it prophesy and you call it predictions, but never the less, Joseph is batting 100%.

R.

John T

11-19-2009, 07:00 PM

What ever, I call it prophesy and you call it predictions, but never the less, Joseph is batting 100%.

R.

Below is the "Readers Digest" version of how to determine if something is prophecy. I defy you to find a single incident in the life of your prophet, JS, that holds up to this scrutiny.

In summary, the seven prophecy guidelines are that the foretold event :

Must be written down
Precede the foretold event
Must not have been changed
Must not be fulfilled by the prophet
Must not be fulfilled by the prophet’s followers
Must be fulfilled after the prophet’s death
Must be verified to occur.

Each of these seven principles is logical and common sense. Together, they form a rubric that gives everyone who cares to examine if a prediction is indeed a prophecy, or not the same tool box. Therefore all are working with the same guiding materials.

Wise old Socrates stated "The unexamined life is not worth living". Just as Important is this "The unexamined faith is not worth believing"

Richard, you simply are NOT examining the purported prophecies of Smith.

If you really, and truly want to make an intelligent look at the basis for saying something is a prophecy, I refer you to this post (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29227&postcount=57), and those that are subsequent.

However, if you continue as you have done before, I predict that you will not look at them, and continue in your make-believe world of calling a con man and adulterer a man of god.

Russianwolfe

11-19-2009, 10:14 PM

There are several flaws in this list.

In summary, the seven prophecy guidelines are that the foretold event :

Must be written down

Does it matter who wrote it down? In Carthage Jail, Joseph told Dan that he would go on another mission. And after Joseph dies, Dan did go on another mission. Dan wrote the prophecy down. And it was fufilled.

Precede the foretold event

DUH!

Must not have been changed

How do you propose to verify this?

Must not be fulfilled by the prophet

Are you thinking of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Must not be fulfilled by the prophet’s followers

So that means that all of the prophecies about the Jews that Jeremiah gave weren't really prophecies? When he said that Babylon would take them into captivity, it wasn't a real prophecy?

Must be fulfilled after the prophet’s death

So when Isaiah told the king not to worry about the enemy at the gates, that they would fail and be destroyed themselves, it wasn't a prophecy? Major problem with this one.

Must be verified to occur.

By who?

Each of these seven principles is logical and common sense.

To many problems with the list.

Together, they form a rubric that gives everyone who cares to examine if a prediction is indeed a prophecy, or not the same tool box. Therefore all are working with the same guiding materials.

But there are too many questions and areas for major disagreement, as I have shown in the case of Isaiah and Jeremiah.

Marvin

John T

11-21-2009, 11:02 PM

There are several flaws in this list.
Does it matter who wrote it down? In Carthage Jail, Joseph told Dan that he would go on another mission. And after Joseph dies, Dan did go on another mission. Dan wrote the prophecy down. And it was fufilled.

Yes, it needs to be written down, otherwise there is no clear record of the actual statement, and all that is left is hearsay. Hearsay is a very poor foundation to establish the truth of a matter.
DUH!
How do you propose to verify this? that is the reason for the prophecy being written down
Are you thinking of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Exactly, and the same goes for the followers of the prophet. It must be out of his hands, and those of his followers, otherwise it is simply wish fukfillment done by the followers in behalf of the "prophet".

So that means that all of the prophecies about the Jews that Jeremiah gave weren't really prophecies? When he said that Babylon would take them into captivity, it wasn't a real prophecy?

So when Isaiah told the king not to worry about the enemy at the gates, that they would fail and be destroyed themselves, it wasn't a prophecy? Major problem with this one. No, there are zero problems.

The enemy outside the gates was not in control of the prophet, his followers, or the king. they were independently working people, and most likely had no idea of the prophecy, and even if they did, they were surely not about to obey a prophet of their enemy, Israel.

By who? History is usually a very good verifier of a thing.
To many problems with the list.

But there are too many questions and areas for major disagreement, as I have shown in the case of Isaiah and Jeremiah. Marvin In these cases, you can subs***ute the concept of distance instead of death. The idea is essentially the same, and the purpose of this is to eliminate any possibility of collusion with the prophecy, and its fulfillment. therefore, distance may be a good subs***ute for death

Marvin,

Thanks for living down to my expectations. I wrote this, hoping to get a full discussion

If you really, and truly want to make an intelligent look at the basis for saying something is a prophecy, I refer you to this post (http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29227&postcount=57), and those that are subsequent.

However, if you continue as you have done before, I predict that you will not look at them, and continue in your make-believe world of calling a con man and adulterer a man of god.If you actually think about it, (or read the posts I made a link to), you will see that the conditions are really quite logical, and if you understand them,
You can also have a, "of course!, that makes sense!" (aka DUH) response.

Thank you for trying to deal with the points, which is more than I can say for Richard's response so far.

Richard

11-22-2009, 09:48 AM

Hmmm, Readers Digest, a great secular tabloid.

Quote:
In summary, the seven prophecy guidelines are that the foretold event :
Must be written down How about engraved on metal plates?
Precede the foretold event Good one.
Must not have been changed Hmmm, is the Bible inerrant?
Must not be fulfilled by the prophet 6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Must not be fulfilled by the prophet’s followers 16And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

17Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

18And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

19And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

20And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Must be fulfilled after the prophet’s death --- not sure, need to research this.

Must be verified to occur. Civil war was pretty much verified by all and even where it broke out.

Wise old Socrates stated "The unexamined life is not worth living". Just as Important is this "The unexamined faith is not worth believing"

"although a truth may be established by reason, its contrary ought to be believed as true as a matter of faith". Author unknown.

akaSeerone

11-22-2009, 10:03 AM

What ever, I call it prophesy and you call it predictions, but never the less, Joseph is batting 100%.

R.
Hey everyone....Richard finally got something right.....Smith was batting 100%....That is 100% false prophecies and I would like anyone to try to prove me wrong!

Smith was no different than all false prophets....All smoke and mirrors and all sorts of contortions to beguile and mesmerize their audiences with a bunch of "fancy" talk, but not one thing that was from God.

And it is no wonder....false prophets do not even believe in God, or else they would not put their heads on the chopping block with their false prophecies that they use as a hook to con people out of their money and in Smith's case, wives.

Andy

John T

11-22-2009, 11:09 PM

Hmmm, Readers Digest, a great secular tabloid. Yeah, I had to give you that abridged version because I knew that you would not bother to read the full tests of the original posts.

BTW where do you get of making a snarky remark about Reader's Digest? It was a metaphorical statement of condensation, nothing more, nothing less. Doing stuff like that makes you appear foolish.

Quote:
In summary, the seven prophecy guidelines are that the foretold event :
Must be written down How about engraved on metal plates? How about SHOWING us the purported plates?

Precede the foretold event Good one.Glad you agree with obvious definitions.

Must not have been changed Hmmm, is the Bible inerrant? RED HERRING Please stick to the topic at hand

Must not be fulfilled by the prophet 6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. This is utterly insipid! God clearly gave Moses instructions. Whenever you can read things correctly, we may have a logical communication. As I see it now, all you are interested in is "scoring points" instead of dealing with facts. That is a poor reflection upon you.

Must not be fulfilled by the prophet’s followers 16And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

17Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

18And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.

19And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.

20And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
AGAIN, sigh, you fail to read the stuff you post. You are making yourself look rather foolish, AGAIN!

Must be fulfilled after the prophet’s death --- not sure, need to research this. I'll cut some slack on this one as I am not fully in agreement. But the concept discussed here is DISTANCE (either physical of spacial) from what has been prophesied, and the fulfillment. Therefore a prophet can prophecy what is happening in an army of the enemy as it surrounds a city, and still have the concept of distance observed.

Must be verified to occur. Civil war was pretty much verified by all and even where it broke out. This was a rather foreseeable event by many different people of that time, so JS was not unique.

Try reading the WHOLE, and not on the condensed "Readers Digest Version" and you will be less likely to make such foolish mistakes, as you have done so above.

Richard

11-23-2009, 03:09 AM

Hey everyone....Richard finally got something right.....Smith was batting 100%....That is 100% false prophecies and I would like anyone to try to prove me wrong!

Smith was no different than all false prophets....All smoke and mirrors and all sorts of contortions to beguile and mesmerize their audiences with a bunch of "fancy" talk, but not one thing that was from God.

And it is no wonder....false prophets do not even believe in God, or else they would not put their heads on the chopping block with their false prophecies that they use as a hook to con people out of their money and in Smith's case, wives.

Andy

Nice andy, now quit with rhetoric and show us how you seen anyone of them as false.

r.

akaSeerone

11-23-2009, 05:44 AM

Nice andy, now quit with rhetoric and show us how you seen anyone of them as false.

r.
Hey....look everyone....Richard is accusing me of rhetoric!!

mod edit

A negative cannot be proven.....Nothing Smith predicted came true, that is proof within itself, so there is noting to prove.

No mormon yet has been able to prove any one of Smith's predictions came true and God's requirement for a Prophet was not that one of their prophecies come true, but rather that NOT ONE of them failed....Gee, it should not be hard to realize that Smith was a false prophet, Richard. Well, that is, unless you want to continue to call God a liar.

I'll go by the Bible Richard....THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD GOD HAS GIVEN MANKIND TO KNOW GOD'S WILL AND PLAN OF SALVATION....mormonism fails miserably all Biblical standards of Christianity and is therefore a wretched, false religion.

But that all pales to the fact that God did away with the Old Covenant Prophet with the establishment of the New Covenant where all of God's adopted Children are Prophets, Kings, Priests "A Most Peculiar People," a New Creation and a Chosen Generation of the Most High....Praise Be To God....Amen.

To Christ Be The Glory,

Andy