I, Creator

[awediot]

When I've pondered what Heaven might be like, the extreme thought I can have is the idea we get what we want...exactly, instantly...as we imagine it, and as well as we can imagine it, while remaining "real" and grounded in the New Earth and state of Heaven...

Say you find yourself there, in a beautiful meadow, and desire an icecream Sundae... It appears, sort of...thin, transparent, with flavors and toppings that shift and swirl according to your less than well formed image of a "typical" Sundae... What sort of ice cream? Hard or soft? Really sweet or a little bitter like chocolate and earthy like vanilla? Caramel, marshmallow, fruit topping? Whipped Cream? Nuts or sprinkles?...In what shapped gl***?

...I think IF this is anything like Heaven may be, first thing we will learn is what rotten "imagineers" we really are...that we are not very good wishers at all.... If we want a home, or a palace...Where? Made of what? Built to what floor plan and with what sort of plants for landscaping? Etcetera...BIG Etcetera... Heaven will be in those details and accumulation, and "hardening" of the reality we want, and want to share with one another...

Over time, as we get good at it, this would logically lead to us creating another world, or planet...But as it would overlap and possibly conflict with other's ideas of their own world, we could create it both as part of Heaven's reality, and/or as distinct, separately, and store it in a box, to work on as a hobby and piece of art...an expression of our deepest thought and desires...

In that sense, we would be the "God" of that planet (or theoretically, Universe should we get so advanced)...but never really GOD... Then, we would run into the potent ability to possibly do what GOD did, and bring it to life...and take responsibility for that decision...and like Him, find it only to be meaningful to set it free enough to reject us...perhaps repeating the only history possible...

Would you let it hang you from a cross?


>This speculative thought process occurred without a trace of Mormonism coming to mind...but I see it now, having learned more, reflected in some of their unique teachings... I'm not a Mormon, nor foresee ever having a desire to become one...but, I can see how they may have been given additional insights in the future and making of our little race, and cannot help but respect that. There are certainly things I disagree with, and have no need to think any person who may have been given a few visions is necessarily a "Prophet" worth forming an entire religion around, but I find half-truths and both corrupted and exploited Truths within my own Christian religion... Seeking for the Ultimate Truth should not lead anyone to dismiss any particular religion, or denomination, belief system, sect, or even cult off-hand and in totality, as the more we do learn, the more mysterious and deep He does get...

The difference is, I can only ever re-create from the elements GOD has already given us little gods to play with. HE remains sacrosanct and Omnimax in a way always infinite steps ahead of me. All I can ever do is reflect Him, and point in His direction. I will never merge with Him, or return to His womb...and see no reason to want to.

[Bat-Man]

When I've pondered what Heaven might be like, the extreme thought I can have is the idea we get what we want...exactly, instantly...as we imagine it, and as well as we can imagine it, while remaining "real" and grounded in the New Earth and state of Heaven...

Say you find yourself there, in a beautiful meadow, and desire an icecream Sundae... It appears, sort of...thin, transparent, with flavors and toppings that shift and swirl according to your less than well formed image of a "typical" Sundae... What sort of ice cream? Hard or soft? Really sweet or a little bitter like chocolate and earthy like vanilla? Caramel, marshmallow, fruit topping? Whipped Cream? Nuts or sprinkles?...In what shapped gl***?

...I think IF this is anything like Heaven may be, first thing we will learn is what rotten "imagineers" we really are...that we are not very good wishers at all.... If we want a home, or a palace...Where? Made of what? Built to what floor plan and with what sort of plants for landscaping? Etcetera...BIG Etcetera... Heaven will be in those details and accumulation, and "hardening" of the reality we want, and want to share with one another...

Over time, as we get good at it, this would logically lead to us creating another world, or planet...But as it would overlap and possibly conflict with other's ideas of their own world, we could create it both as part of Heaven's reality, and/or as distinct, separately, and store it in a box, to work on as a hobby and piece of art...an expression of our deepest thought and desires...

In that sense, we would be the "God" of that planet (or theoretically, Universe should we get so advanced)...but never really GOD... Then, we would run into the potent ability to possibly do what GOD did, and bring it to life...and take responsibility for that decision...and like Him, find it only to be meaningful to set it free enough to reject us...perhaps repeating the only history possible...

Would you let it hang you from a cross?


>This speculative thought process occurred without a trace of Mormonism coming to mind...but I see it now, having learned more, reflected in some of their unique teachings... I'm not a Mormon, nor foresee ever having a desire to become one...but, I can see how they may have been given additional insights in the future and making of our little race, and cannot help but respect that. There are certainly things I disagree with, and have no need to think any person who may have been given a few visions is necessarily a "Prophet" worth forming an entire religion around, but I find half-truths and both corrupted and exploited Truths within my own Christian religion... Seeking for the Ultimate Truth should not lead anyone to dismiss any particular religion, or denomination, belief system, sect, or even cult off-hand and in totality, as the more we do learn, the more mysterious and deep He does get...

The difference is, I can only ever re-create from the elements GOD has already given us little gods to play with. HE remains sacrosanct and Omnimax in a way always infinite steps ahead of me. All I can ever do is reflect Him, and point in His direction. I will never merge with Him, or return to His womb...and see no reason to want to.
Some interesting thoughts. Thank you for sharing them.

Over the course of the rest of eternity you might as well learn to be as much like our Father in heaven as you can possibly be, and then act on what you have learned.

I'll try to come by from time to time to see how much progress you've made.

[akaSeerone]

I'll try to come by from time to time to see how much progress you've made.
I would like to know how you propose to do that.....There is no escaping from the Lake of Fire and I doubt if you will even be able to see what us Christians are doing on the New Earth.

Andy

[Bat-Man]

I would like to know how you propose to do that.....
First, I'll need to find out how to find out which planet he is on, which I suppose I'll find out the more I come to know the truth of all things, and then I'll need to find out how to travel through space, which I suppose will be something like flying... unless there is some better way to travel through space.

It may take a while to find all of that out, but I'll have all of eternity and I don't see any reason why I would want to be in a big hurry to see him.

It's just something I'll do, for something to do, when I don't have anything better to do.


There is no escaping from the Lake of Fire and I doubt if you will even be able to see what us Christians are doing on the New Earth.
Heh, there you go again, acting as if the fact that YOU THINK I am going to be in a Lake of Fire means that I really will be, as if what you are saying is true.

Do you claim to be a prophet, or something like that ?

How else would you be able to know what is going to happen in the future ?

[awediot]

Some interesting thoughts. Thank you for sharing them.

Over the course of the rest of eternity you might as well learn to be as much like our Father in heaven as you can possibly be, and then act on what you have learned.

I'll try to come by from time to time to see how much progress you've made.

Batman, please just take it down a couple notches. Your "confidence" appears as shear arrogance to the rest of us, and it is in no way endearing or invoking of having any confidence in what you say... In reaching out in friendship all I've gotten back is condescension, generic accusations and weird half-answers, and that is no way to represent what God will turn a person into if I believe you...

[awediot]

Some interesting thoughts. Thank you for sharing them.

Over the course of the rest of eternity you might as well learn to be as much like our Father in heaven as you can possibly be, and then act on what you have learned.

I'll try to come by from time to time to see how much progress you've made.

and...to just continue the thoughts...

We would reside in Heaven (which would have little reason to change much) and most of our real creative juices would flow into our "Planet" (which we could perhaps become a part of, as GOD became a part of ours). We wouldn't live on it as we do this one... Our visit may turn out as GOD's did on our own...thus my question as to if we would do for them, what He did for us...

Or would we need to? Is that "rebellion", and need of a blood atonement inevitable?

[Bat-Man]

and...to just continue the thoughts...

We would reside in Heaven (which would have little reason to change much) and most of our real creative juices would flow into our "Planet" (which we could perhaps become a part of, as GOD became a part of ours). We wouldn't live on it as we do this one... Our visit may turn out as GOD's did on our own...thus my question as to if we would do for them, what He did for us...
What do you think "heaven" is ?

FYI, heaven refers to what we see in the sky above us, and it is filled with clouds and stars and other heavenly bodies, including planets with cities/towns/villages on those planets... with people scattered throughout all of heaven.

It's not some "unreal" place. It's all real, with everything consisting of matter.


Or would we need to? Is that "rebellion", and need of a blood atonement inevitable?
Wait and see. You wouldn't believe me now even if I told you all about it.

[awediot]

What do you think "heaven" is ?

FYI, heaven refers to what we see in the sky above us, and it is filled with clouds and stars and other heavenly bodies, including planets with cities/towns/villages on those planets... with people scattered throughout all of heaven.

It's not some "unreal" place. It's all real, with everything consisting of matter.

I believe it will be a restoration of our spiritual selves which we fell from, where the laws of physics become merely optional, and we've a life under our belt to appreciate it all... It will be more than physical, and the fulfillment of the material. Not less

"Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much, much...BETTER!"

"Language is a Virus" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZkjoXyexKk) ~ Laurie Anderson



Wait and see. You wouldn't believe me now even if I told you all about it.Actually, I wouldn't believe you know all about it, my lord.

[Bat-Man]

I believe it will be a restoration of our spiritual selves which we fell from, where the laws of physics become merely optional, and we've a life under our belt to appreciate it all... It will be more than physical, and the fulfillment of the material. Not less.
The whole purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ is to restore us to the condition Adam and Eve once enjoyed in the garden of Eden while we will retain our knowledge of good and evil and an ability/desire to produce children and the ability to eat food and walk around in a garden and have dominion over a planet just as Adam and Eve did both before and after they "fell" but couldn't get back up by themselves.


"Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much, much...BETTER!"
Heh, yes, and as we all know, BETTER is relative.


"Language is a Virus" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZkjoXyexKk) ~ Laurie Anderson
Words and expressions of feelings.


Actually, I wouldn't believe you know all about it, my lord.
That's what I said.

[awediot]

That's what I said.

...just missing the sarcasm...


You're a quick study Batman... It doesn't matter whether we agree or not, I can't tell, and that is the way you want it...just keep 'em talking.

Tends to wear me out and just spins wheels...

[Bat-Man]

...just missing the sarcasm...


You're a quick study Batman... It doesn't matter whether we agree or not, I can't tell, and that is the way you want it...just keep 'em talking.

Tends to wear me out and just spins wheels...
Everything I have said is true.

You just have to be able to "see" that, somehow, for yourself.

... and it's not my fault if you don't.

[theway]

I believe it will be a restoration of our spiritual selves which we fell from, where the laws of physics become merely optional, and we've a life under our belt to appreciate it all... It will be more than physical, and the fulfillment of the material. Not less

"Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, only much, much...BETTER!"
.
I don't think that one needs to ignore the laws of physics to be like God.
I think God perfectly understands and uses the laws to govern the universe.
For instance, gravity and aerodynamics makes apples fall on my head and causes me to only be able to jump a foot or two high.
However, by understanding these laws and applying them properly, one can reach the moon.

[awediot]

I don't think that one needs to ignore the laws of physics to be like God.
I think God perfectly understands and uses the laws to govern the universe.
For instance, gravity and aerodynamics makes apples fall on my head and causes me to only be able to jump a foot or two high.
However, by understanding these laws and applying them properly, one can reach the moon.

I didn't say simply "ignore"... Only meant to state I think we will be "above" having to obey them... We will no longer have to obey gravity, or eat to sustain the burning of fuel for our bodies survival... I believe as a result of the fall, we became susceptible to them and lost our spiritual make up, reducing us to a more animalistic existence, which has no choice but to obey physical law...

C.S. Lewis described it that since we would not be governed by the higher moral laws, God insured we be governed by the baser laws of physics.

[akaSeerone]

You are a mormon.....of course you are headed for the Lake of Fire....It does not take a Prophet to know that, one only has to read the Bible and it does not take much to figure out that mormons are headed for the Lake of Fire.....So, what is your point?

Once again you owe me an apology....I told you earlier that unlike the wannabe prophet that you are I have no desire nor have I said anything to lead anyone to come to the conclusion that I claim to be a prophet, so quit with the games and quit with the putting words in my mouth! You are only showing everyone here how far removed from the truth you really are.

The Bible says the Apostles and Prophets ended with the FOUNDATION of the Church/The Body of Christ, so you have no argument and PROVING SMITH A CON MAN AND LIAR AND THE LDS CULT A TOTALLY FALSE PAGAN RELIGION THAT HAS NOTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH GOD'S PLAN OF SALVATION FOR MANKIND AND YET YOU CHOSE TO REPRESENT A LIE, SO WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOU....ACTUALLY IT SPEAKS (NEGATIVE) VOLUMES BECAUSE YOU ARE ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN AND ONLY THINK YOU ARE WALKING IN THE LIGHT. PITY!!

Andy

[nrajeff]

I liked and agree with a whole lot of what you have said, Awediot.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I would like to know how you propose to do that.....There is no escaping from the Lake of Fire and I doubt if you will even be able to see what us Christians are doing on the New Earth.

Andy

aka Pleasant as always.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

>This speculative thought process occurred without a trace of Mormonism coming to mind...but I see it now, having learned more, reflected in some of their unique teachings... I'm not a Mormon, nor foresee ever having a desire to become one...but, I can see how they may have been given additional insights in the future and making of our little race, and cannot help but respect that. There are certainly things I disagree with, and have no need to think any person who may have been given a few visions is necessarily a "Prophet" worth forming an entire religion around, but I find half-truths and both corrupted and exploited Truths within my own Christian religion... Seeking for the Ultimate Truth should not lead anyone to dismiss any particular religion, or denomination, belief system, sect, or even cult off-hand and in totality, as the more we do learn, the more mysterious and deep He does get...

The difference is, I can only ever re-create from the elements GOD has already given us little gods to play with. HE remains sacrosanct and Omnimax in a way always infinite steps ahead of me. All I can ever do is reflect Him, and point in His direction. I will never merge with Him, or return to His womb...and see no reason to want to.

Thanks for expressing your thoughts from an open heart and mind, and being respectful in the process, Awediot.

This was an interesting read.

[awediot]

Thanks for expressing your thoughts from an open heart and mind, and being respectful in the process, Awediot.

This was an interesting read.

Thanks FBT...It has many implications, and was a concept not arrived at lightly...as I think Hell will be quite similar.

[awediot]

I liked and agree with a whole lot of what you have said, Awediot.
Thanks Jeff.."Heaven" is an intriguing thing to meditate on.

[Bat-Man]

I didn't say simply "ignore"... Only meant to state I think we will be "above" having to obey them... We will no longer have to obey gravity, or eat to sustain the burning of fuel for our bodies survival... I believe as a result of the fall, we became susceptible to them and lost our spiritual make up, reducing us to a more animalistic existence, which has no choice but to obey physical law...

C.S. Lewis described it that since we would not be governed by the higher moral laws, God insured we be governed by the baser laws of physics.
You have some thoughts that I can see plainly are good, but you also have some other thoughts that either I don't understand or that don't seem right to me.

I do agree with what I think is your belief that I will no longer NEED food to survive, physically, after I am resurrected, because it will then be impossible for my spirit to separate from my physical body, or in other words, I won't be able to "die" anymore, physically... even though I could still possibly be somehow separated spiritually from our Father in heaven.

... in my perspective, EVERYONE who has been or will have been born on Earth by the Day of Judgment will be resurrected and then either be sent to heaven or hell to continue to exist, forever, which means that neither the people in heaven nor hell will NEED food to continue to exist, forever.

... and I say not NEED to eat food because we will still be able to eat, just as Jesus Christ ate after he was resurrected, and just as Adam and Eve ate before they were condemned to die.

Anyway, apart from all that, can you go into some more detail to describe what you are talking about concerning what we will no longer need to do ?

How do you propose that we will be able to defy, or overrule, the laws that govern the motion of planets and other heavenly bodies ?

Do you think Adam and Eve were able to fly, somehow, in some way other than how we can fly now ?

I do know our Lord can fly, in the sense of ascending and descending from heaven, and I'm not exactly sure how he does that, but I suppose we'll find out if we're ever going to be able to do that, ourselves.

[Bat-Man]

[B]The Bible says the Apostles and Prophets ended with the FOUNDATION of the Church/The Body of Christ...
No it doesn't, or at least I've never seen that written anywhere in the Bible.

Can you show me where that is explicitly written in the Holy Bible ?

[awediot]

Anyway, apart from all that, can you go into some more detail to describe what you are talking about concerning what we will no longer need to do ?

We will no longer "Need"... Need in itself is a chain and cage created from the Fall... We may find our self in the position that if we desire -X-, will will "have to" or in a different sense NEED to gain or achieve it in a set manner...but we will WANT to do it, and it will be a chosen venture done in love and the pursuit of edification and growth, not because we have to to survive... Physical need breeds a sense of resentment because we must toil at things we'd rather not do just to live to the end of the month (eat)...or week (drink)...or day (breath)...or even minute (beat blood)...


How do you propose that we will be able to defy, or overrule, the laws that govern the motion of planets and other heavenly bodies ?I do not believe we will be omnipotent, and we won't be able to do anything we desire at will, (especially if it disrupts the "Heaven" we all will be sharing in)...But where that line is drawn, I can't say... I'd imagine God would ask just why you want to disrupt the Universe or the orchestrated, balanced movements of the Planets...

Why would you?


Do you think Adam and Eve were able to fly, somehow, in some way other than how we can fly now ?It doesn't seem they ever got to the point of being able to appreciate the idea... They seemed pretty stunned to be able to walk and see trees and simply exist in the fresh here and nowness of it all... They blew the very first law they were given... Who knows what they may have been had they resisted.


I do know our Lord can fly, in the sense of ascending and descending from heaven, and I'm not exactly sure how he does that, but I suppose we'll find out if we're ever going to be able to do that, ourselves.Jump.

Do it again...

Now, next time, do it not higher, or further, but longer in duration...extending your hang time a microsecond each time, until landing becomes an option... ;)


You gotta learn to cope with floating before you can fly.

[Bat-Man]

We will no longer "Need"...
Do you think we will no longer NEED God (our Father in heaven) ?

... or Jesus Christ ?


Need in itself is a chain and cage created from the Fall...
Considering what happens to those who don't rely on God for the truth, and for all good things in the future, I think I could learn to be happy in some kind of a cage as long as it was a very nice and big and open cage that I could choose to get out of if I really wanted to be out.


We may find our self in the position that if we desire -X-, will will "have to" or in a different sense NEED to gain or achieve it in a set manner...but we will WANT to do it, and it will be a chosen venture done in love and the pursuit of edification and growth, not because we have to to survive...
I like the sound of that.

I've often thought of how much better off this world would be if we just got rid of money, or the idea that we needed money.

It's all about service, really, and as long as we don't NEED to do something to survive, because we would continue to exist forever, because it would be impossible for us to die, which will be the case after we are resurrected, why not just try to find things to do to help each other out, without using money ?


Physical need breeds a sense of resentment because we must toil at things we'd rather not do just to live to the end of the month (eat)...or week (drink)...or day (breath)...or even minute (beat blood)...
Yep. That's true, but it doesn't NEED to breed resentment.

When you have a physical need, all you need is some way to get what you need, and I think we can all get what we need without using any money.

I think we should get rid of our money, and those who love money.


I do not believe we will be omnipotent, and we won't be able to do anything we desire at will, (especially if it disrupts the "Heaven" we all will be sharing in)...But where that line is drawn, I can't say... I'd imagine God would ask just why you want to disrupt the Universe or the orchestrated, balanced movements of the Planets...

Why would you?
I wouldn't, but some would because of greed, or fear of insecurity, or because they love to have some way to exercise power over other people.

Think about this:

If money had no power, say because people woudn't need money to get anything, how would you get something you wanted, or how would you get someone to help you get what you wanted ?

Say, for example, some land, so that you could grow a garden ?

The way I see things, this planet belongs to all of us, NOW, but for some reason some people think they get to be the ones to make the decisions about how we go about sharing all of the resources that are available on this planet.

Who put them in charge ?

Why can't we all just get along and share things more equally, NOW ?

What we need now is a revolution, and the one to lead it is coming.


It doesn't seem they ever got to the point of being able to appreciate the idea... They seemed pretty stunned to be able to walk and see trees and simply exist in the fresh here and nowness of it all... They blew the very first law they were given... Who knows what they may have been had they resisted.
Well, hopefully we've all learned or will learn from our mistakes, as I'm sure Adam and Eve already have.

Eve messed up by listening to Satan, and some people still have the same problem.


Jump.

Do it again...

Now, next time, do it not higher, or further, but longer in duration...extending your hang time a microsecond each time, until landing becomes an option... ;)


You gotta learn to cope with floating before you can fly.
Heh, I can glide. Does that count ?

[awediot]

Do you think we will no longer NEED God (our Father in heaven) ?

... or Jesus Christ ?

No...and in that way we will truly be freed to want them so much more. We will want to need them, but will have transcended that.



Considering what happens to those who don't rely on God for the truth, and for all good things in the future, I think I could learn to be happy in some kind of a cage as long as it was a very nice and big and open cage that I could choose to get out of if I really wanted to be out.

Then that's not a cage.





Yep. That's true, but it doesn't NEED to breed resentment.

But it does, never the less... Ask people if they are doing exactly what they want to be doing at any point in their day, and most likely they will say no (they'd rather be on the beach or in the mountains enjoying friends and family without a care in the world). So why are they doing what they are? Because they have to meet NEEDS, and while perhaps happy enough, they have settled and are making due until...


When you have a physical need, all you need is some way to get what you need, and I think we can all get what we need without using any money.

Money is a symbol boiled down to pretty paper. A barter system would not eliminate compe***ion and fighting, cl*** and the other ills we blame on "money".


I think we should get rid of our money, and those who love money.

Get rid of those who love money? Eat the rich with a side of the greedy, perhaps?



I wouldn't, but some would because of greed, or fear of insecurity, or because they love to have some way to exercise power over other people.

Those people will not be in Heaven BECAUSE they want to disrupt it for their own proud gratifications.

Think about this:


If money had no power, say because people woudn't need money to get anything, how would you get something you wanted, or how would you get someone to help you get what you wanted ?

Say, for example, some land, so that you could grow a garden ?

The way I see things, this planet belongs to all of us, NOW, but for some reason some people think they get to be the ones to make the decisions about how we go about sharing all of the resources that are available on this planet.

Who put them in charge ?

Why can't we all just get along and share things more equally, NOW ?

What we need now is a revolution, and the one to lead it is coming.

Utopian, nice, but unrealistic vision...and the coming revolution is a set up btw... Who do you think is teaching our kids to not just question authority, but shred it...all the while calling themselves rebels and free thinkers? We will run to our executioner for comfort.



Well, hopefully we've all learned or will learn from our mistakes, as I'm sure Adam and Eve already have.

Eve messed up by listening to Satan, and some people still have the same problem.

Our problem is not one of ignorance, and sins are not mistakes.



Heh, I can glide. Does that count ?

If that'll satiate you...who am I to argue?

[Bat-Man]

No...and in that way we will truly be freed to want them so much more. We will want to need them, but will have transcended that.
Wow. And some people say Mormons are heretics.

Just wait until they get a load of you.

... and btw, I do not agree with what you are saying.


Then that's not a cage.
Sure it is. A bird can have a cage, and be free to leave at any time, and actually leave the cage sometimes with the freedom to come back to the cage because the bird really likes to be there in the cage, at least sometimes.

Have you ever seen a really big aviary ?

Have you ever heard about carrier pigeons ?

Try thinking of the kingdom of God as a cage with the door left wide open.


Ask people if they are doing exactly what they want to be doing at any point in their day, and most likely they will say no (they'd rather be on the beach or in the mountains enjoying friends and family without a care in the world). So why are they doing what they are? Because they have to meet NEEDS, and while perhaps happy enough, they have settled and are making due until...
Have you ever tried asking someone without any concern at all for MONEY if he or she is doing what he or she would really like to be doing ?

I realize that those who are servants to money don't have total freedom.

... but we don't NEED to be concerned about money.


Money is a symbol boiled down to pretty paper. A barter system would not eliminate compe***ion and fighting, cl*** and the other ills we blame on "money".
Forget about bartering, too.

I'm thinking about a world where people do what they do because they want to be of service to other people without any concern for getting anything out of it, themselves, other than the satisifaction of being able to actually help other people.

I'm not suggesting that a good person would be willing to help someone do something or get something which isn't good for another person, though.

A good person would of course only be willing to do good things, so a person who wants to do or get something that wouldn't be good for him or her would get no help doing or getting that from a good person.


Get rid of those who love money? Eat the rich with a side of the greedy, perhaps?
Eat them ? No, I'm not suggesting we eat them.

I think we should just send them to live with people who are like themselves, if they really don't want to change, so that all of the greedy people can live together. They should enjoy their own company, right ?


Those people will not be in Heaven BECAUSE they want to disrupt it for their own proud gratifications.
Or, perhaps, they will be sent to live in a certain PART of heaven, with other greedy people.

Try to keep in mind that heaven, to me, is everything that we see in the sky above us... consisting of real places, with planets, and everything.

Each one of us is going to continue to live, or exist, somewhere.


Who do you think is teaching our kids to not just question authority, but shred it...all the while calling themselves rebels and free thinkers? We will run to our executioner for comfort.
I don't know about you, but I run to my Savior for comfort.

And btw, I don't have a problem with authority, per se.

I just have a problem with people who exercise, or who try to exercise, unrighteous dominion over another person, or place.


Our problem is not one of ignorance, and sins are not mistakes.
To know what sin is, we need to learn from our Father in heaven so that we can know what HE doesn't approve of.


If that'll satiate you...who am I to argue?
I've learned to be content in all things while I still strive to do better.

[awediot]

Wow. And some people say Mormons are heretics.

Just wait until they get a load of you.

... and btw, I do not agree with what you are saying.

"They've" already gotten quite the diaper load of me. 30k+ posts on CARM, and now banished into "Guest-dom", has left some of my more radical views as the source for the same accusation you are quite familiar with.

To explain...I believe we will need God and Christ to continue learning, to strengthen and expand our love...to keep growing. But we won't need to keep learning or loving more or grow... It's Heaven, after all. We made it... Some may choose to remain in the nursery in infantile bliss; but we will want those things, will long for them with the beautiful angst of a curious cat fulfilled in the exploration and delighted by a new spot on the floor...for awhile.

Of course we will "need" God to... We just won't Need Him to save us anymore... I look at it like, since we no longer will need to eat, we will be freed to truly appreciate tasting for the first time, and that will grow into an enjoyment we barely have a hint at in these days.



Sure it is. A bird can have a cage, and be free to leave at any time, and actually leave the cage sometimes with the freedom to come back to the cage because the bird really likes to be there in the cage, at least sometimes.

Have you ever seen a really big aviary ?

Have you ever heard about carrier pigeons ?

Try thinking of the kingdom of God as a cage with the door left wide open.Okay.



Have you ever tried asking someone without any concern at all for MONEY if he or she is doing what he or she would really like to be doing ?

I realize that those who are servants to money don't have total freedom.

... but we don't NEED to be concerned about money.


Forget about bartering, too.

I'm thinking about a world where people do what they do because they want to be of service to other people without any concern for getting anything out of it, themselves, other than the satisifaction of being able to actually help other people.

I'm not suggesting that a good person would be willing to help someone do something or get something which isn't good for another person, though.

A good person would of course only be willing to do good things, so a person who wants to do or get something that wouldn't be good for him or her to have would get no help doing or getting that from a good person.



Eat them ? No, I'm not suggesting we eat them.

I think we should just send them to live with people who are like themselves, if they really don't want to change, so that all of the greedy people can live together. They should enjoy their own company, right ?
Yes...Utopia. I get it.



Or, perhaps, they will be sent to live in a certain PART of heaven, with other greedy people.Greed is a sin. I don't believe Heaven will accommodate habitual sinners.

Though I do believe we will be capable of sinning in Heaven (we won't have any freewill removed), heaven will give us no reason or genuine opportunity to... There will no longer be anything to gain from it. The conditions which foster greed will be eliminated.



Try to keep in mind that heaven, to me, is everything that we see in the sky above us... consisting of real places, with planets, and everything.

Each one of us is going to continue to live, or exist, somewhere.I'll try to keep that in mind.

Heaven to me will be finding we were living in the shadow, in the vapor of what reality was originally intended to be. Everything will solidify, restore...and some will not like it... Perhaps "Heaven" is what I consider the fullness of the "good"side of what you are describing.



I don't know about you, but I run to my Savior for comfort.I meant in a political/secular sense.


And btw, I don't have a problem with authority, per se.

I just have a problem with people who exercise, or who try to exercise, unrighteous dominion over another person, or place.Me either...Unless they rule solely by coercion, sorta like you describe.



To know what sin is, we need to learn from our Father in heaven so that we can know what HE doesn't approve of.Yes...all Christians know this by heart; though some restrict themselves to going by the Book (or claim to anyway)



I've learned to be content in all things while I still strive to do better.Good answer.

[akaSeerone]

No it doesn't, or at least I've never seen that written anywhere in the Bible.

Can you show me where that is explicitly written in the Holy Bible ?
It is all about context.

Luke 16:16

Hebrews 1: 1-4 with emphasis on the first verse.

Ephesians 2: 14-22 with emphasis on verse twenty, keeping in mind that foundations do not get added to over the years once they are established.

Andy

[Bat-Man]

"They've" already gotten quite the diaper load of me. 30k+ posts on CARM, and now banished into "Guest-dom", has left some of my more radical views as the source for the same accusation you are quite familiar with.
Yes, I know what you mean.

If a "mod" and those who agree with a "mod" think it is NOT Chrisitian, then it just ain't really Christian.

I prefer to learn from God, personally, to find out how to be a true Christian.


To explain...I believe we will need God and Christ to continue learning, to strengthen and expand our love...to keep growing. But we won't need to keep learning or loving more or grow... It's Heaven, after all. We made it... Some may choose to remain in the nursery is infantile bliss; but we will want those things, will long for them with the beautiful angst of a curious cat fulfilled in the exploration and delighted by a new spot on the floor...for awhile.
Okay, I think I understand what you mean now, and I still don't agree with you, so here is where I will tell you that I will not argue with you, anymore, as I acknowledge your right to believe whatever you want to believe.


Of course we will "need" God to... We just won't Need Him to save us anymore... I look at it like, since we no longer will need to eat, we will be freed to truly appreciate tasting for the first time, and that will grow into an enjoyment we barely have a hint at in these days.
I think it depends on what you think it means to be "saved".

To me, salvation is all about being saved from myself, or the person I would otherwise be without God's "help", and I believe I will continue to need God's "help" with a lot of things even after I get sent to live somewhere in heaven.

I don't picture it as something like him saying:

Well, here you are now. Have fun!

... as he then walks away from me.

If he did that, I think I'll be like:

Wait, wait, wait! Hold on there a minute ! Would you or someone else show me around and help me learn how to do things. I want to be able to do EVERYTHING you can do. Can you help me with that, or point me to someone else who can ?

... and I'm going to want to do more than just sit around read books, forever.


Yes...Utopia. I get it.
If you really do get it, why do you call it "Utopia" instead of "Heaven" ?


Greed is a sin. I don't believe Heaven will accommodate habitual sinners.
Okay. So you think all of the greedy people will go to Hell, and I get that.

I'm just saying that Hell will be a real place, too, and will be somewhere out there in what we look at when we look up into the sky around us.


Though I do believe we will be capable of sinning in Heaven (we won't have any freewill removed), heaven will give us no reason or genuine opportunity to... There will no longer be anything to gain from it. The conditions which foster greed will be eliminated.
Hmm. I guess I'll just wait and see about that.


I'll try to keep that in mind.
Thank you.


Heaven to me will be finding we were living in the shadow, in the vapor of what reality was originally intended to be. Everything will solidify, restore...and some will not like it... Perhaps "Heaven" is what I consider the fullness of the "good"side of what you are describing.
I consider Heaven to be divided into the good, better and best places, with each place having a place that is best for each particular person sent to that place.


I meant in a political/secular sense.
Okay.


Me either...Unless they rule solely by coercion, sorta like you describe.
Good for me to hear.


Yes...all Christians know this by heart; though some restrict themselves to going by the Book (or claim to anyway)
I consider our heart to be the center of what we are, in that sense.


Good answer.
Thank you. You gave what I consider to be some pretty good answers, too.

[theway]

It is all about context.

Luke 16:16

Hebrews 1: 1-4 with emphasis on the first verse.

Ephesians 2: 14-22 with emphasis on verse twenty, keeping in mind that foundations do not get added to over the years once they are established.

AndyI’m not seeing it, please explain, because the context when used in support of your argument is very weak.
Did Christ set up apostles and prophets after his death?
Were there prophets after Christ’s death?
If so, when exactly do you believe the need for them stopped?
Will there be prophets in the future?
Do you believe (like some on this board) that merely prophesying makes one a prophet?

[akaSeerone]

What you think means nothing.

That is why God gave us the ONE AND ONLY STANDARD TO JUDGE BY AND TO KNOW HIS PLAN FOR MANKIND.....THE BIBLE.

What you say DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE, so you are not hearing from God, you have no argument and that should throw up red flags all over the place for you but you seem to wear your anti-Christ spirit guide as a badge of honor instead of recognizing it for the lying spirit that it is.

You are a very confused and misinformed individual and you need to start all over because you are about as far from THE TRUTH as one can get, along with the lds pagan cult.

Andy

[Bat-Man]

What you think means nothing.
Now you know what I think when I see what you think.

[akaSeerone]

Now you know what I think when I see what you think.
You just do not get it do you?

It is not what I think.....It is what the Bible says.

It is amazing how you keep ignoring the fact that THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD GOD GAVE US FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS.

Hey.....I do not expect you to get it, because if you did you would have to admit that you are under the influence of a pagan anti-Christ spirit guide that totally opposes God and His Word, the Bible.

Andy

[awediot]

Okay, I think I understand what you mean now, and I still don't agree with you, so here is where I will tell you that I will not argue with you, anymore, as I acknowledge your right to believe whatever you want to believe.

Odd reason to quit "arguing" IMO... Kinda hard to argue with those who agree.



I think it depends on what you think it means to be "saved".

To me, salvation is all about being saved from myself, or the person I would otherwise be without God's "help", and I believe I will continue to need God's "help" with a lot of things even after I get sent to live somewhere in heaven.

I don't picture it as something like him saying:

Well, here you are now. Have fun!

... as he then walks away from me.

If he did that, I think I'll be like:

Wait, wait, wait! Hold on there a minute ! Would you or someone else show me around and help me learn how to do things. I want to be able to do EVERYTHING you can do. Can you help me with that, or point me to someone else who can ?

... and I'm going to want to do more than just sit around read books, forever.Nothing like what I sated or the scenario I see, but, okay.

Once we make a conscious and committed decision to place Christ first in our life and mind and heart, and seek Him first for the help in that, I believe we are "saved" from that point on (though I have some doubts about the whole OSAS theory)... We then progress from there... I do think God will tell us to get off our faces and stop genuflecting, and "go have fun"... That has nothing to with Him then walking away or going back to the office like we were kids He's trying to preoccupy.



If you really do get it, why do you call it "Utopia" instead of "Heaven" ?Because Utopia is our vision of the perfect, theoretically do-able, man-made society... Heaven is beyond our capacity to create and can only be achieved through divine intervention.



Okay. So you think all of the greedy people will go to Hell, and I get that.No. I didn't say that... Greed will not exist in Heaven


I'm just saying that Hell will be a real place, too, and will be somewhere out there in what we look at when we look up into the sky around us.
Hmm. I guess I'll just wait and see about that.... ... ...



I consider Heaven to be divided into the good, better and best places, with each place having a place that is best for each particular person sent to that place.That's a tad to segregated for my vision... Sounds like a compound with lots of walls and fences to keep up apart until we "earn" a promotion... (enough of that)

I see it more like...there will be those just enraptured and mesmerized by what we call "Blue"... Then, having gotten over that, they may look down and realize it is the "sky"...which ends at the "horizon", and it dawns on them they are in that meadow I mentioned earlier...and there are other "people" and "animals"; which for some will be too outrageously joyous, and the will retreat into the bluiness of it all again until they can handle more (the Nursery of Heaven)... Where as other we have adapted to the simplicity, and not only have mastered floating, but are learning to fly around a little, waiting in loving patience for the babies to emerge from their bliss... Those are the "levels" I see...




I consider our heart to be the center of what we are, in that sense.I consider the heart to be a part of the Soul... Our center is shattered and ungrounded right now, and i don't think we exactly understand it... (Mind? Heart? Soul? Spirit? Intellect? Emotion? Sentience? Consciousness?) We're a conglomeration and can't quite experience the unity even of our Self right now...



Thank you. You gave what I consider to be some pretty good answers, too.Thanks... Some of our disagreements I think are purely semantical (as is always the case on boards like this). And some not...

[awediot]

What you think means nothing.



Then neither does that...

It's akin to stating that Ultimate Truth does not exist...as though that could be true...

We cannot eliminate what we think as though it's irrelevant.

[akaSeerone]

Why do you guys keep side stepping the fact that THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD THAT GOD GAVE US FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS?

IF WHAT SOMEONE SAYS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE IT DOES NOT MEAN A THING AND NEEDS TO BE REJECTED.

Andy

[Bat-Man]

Odd reason to quit "arguing" IMO... Kinda hard to argue with those who agree.
I no longer see a good reason to argue with anyone, about anything.

... in the sense of quarreling or fighting with someone about what he or she believes.

I now simply seek to understand what someone believes, and why he or she believes it, with God being the one I want to learn from the most, personally.


Nothing like what I sated or the scenario I see, but, okay.
So your idea of heaven and mine are not the same. Okay.


Once we make a conscious and committed decision to place Christ first in our life and mind and heart, and seek Him first for the help in that, I believe we are "saved" from that point on (though I have some doubts about the whole OSAS theory)... We then progress from there... I do think God will tell us to get off our faces and stop genuflecting, and "go have fun"... That has nothing to with Him then walking away or going back to the office like we were kids He's trying to preoccupy.
Heh, it seems to me that you do NOT understand what I believe, yet.

Would you like me to explain my thoughts to you, some more, or have you heard enough, already ?

Hmm. I'll tell you what.

I share a little more, and if you want to hear more, after that, just let me know.

I believe I will continue to learn from our Father in heaven pretty much as I do now, with me now being able to go to God and receive answers from him, personally, about anything I want to know about, as long as he wants to teach me.

So, just as I believe I continue to need God to continue to learn and grow, NOW, I believe I will CONTINUE to need God to continue to learn and grow, LATER, even when I get to heaven, even though I may be learning a lot in heaven that I'm not learning right now on this Earth because God isn't ready to teach me those things I will learn later, just yet.

Your idea, or at least what I understand about your idea, is that you think you'll no longer need God for ANYTHING once you get to heaven, even though you may hang around and ***ociate with him, personally, sometimes, if and when you really want to.

Have I correctly conveyed your own thoughts about what you think you will be like in heaven ?


Because Utopia is our vision of the perfect, theoretically do-able, man-made society... Heaven is beyond our capacity to create and can only be achieved through divine intervention.
I think you should consider what I am talking about to be heaven, then, because I'm talking about continuing to need God's divine intervention even after we get to heaven, while YOU are the one who is talking as if you think man, alone, can create the perfect society.


No. I didn't say that... Greed will not exist in Heaven.
I think it depends on what you are referring to when you say "Heaven".

The idea some people have of Heaven is what I consider to be Hell.


That's a tad to segregated for my vision... Sounds like a compound with lots of walls and fences to keep up apart until we "earn" a promotion... (enough of that)
I don't think you've got the big picture that I am trying to convey, yet.

Heaven consists of many, many, many planets.

You talk as if all of Heaven is on only one planet or Celestial orb.


I see it more like...there will be those just enraptured and mesmerized by what we call "Blue"... Then, having gotten over that, they may look down and realize it is the "sky"...which ends at the "horizon", and it dawns on them they are in that meadow I mentioned earlier...and there are other "people" and "animals"; which for some will be too outrageously joyous, and they will retreat into the bluiness of it all again until they can handle more (the Nursery of Heaven)... Where as other we have adapted to the simplicity, and not only have mastered floating, but are learning to fly around a little, waiting in loving patience for the babies to emerge from their bliss... Those are the "levels" I see...
So is "flying" what will be THE REALLY BIG DEAL, to you ?

Is that the grandest thing you can imagine doing once you are in heaven ?

I'm imagining something that involves my wife, and many children, personally.


I consider the heart to be a part of the Soul... Our center is shattered and ungrounded right now, and i don't think we exactly understand it... (Mind? Heart? Soul? Spirit? Intellect? Emotion? Sentience? Consciousness?) We're a conglomeration and can't quite experience the unity even of our Self right now...
Well, at least not as much as we or some of us will later, if that's what you meant.


Thanks... Some of our disagreements I think are purely semantical (as is always the case on boards like this). And some not...
I agree. What other option is there ?

[awediot]

Why do you guys keep side stepping the fact that THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD THAT GOD GAVE US FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS?

IF WHAT SOMEONE SAYS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE IT DOES NOT MEAN A THING AND NEEDS TO BE REJECTED.

Andy

Define "you guys".

So slavery and marrying eight year old little girls is cool with you then?

And Jesus didn't really mean to chop off your offending hands or pluck you eyes out, He was just being all dramatic and ****ogous on those?


And the all bold caps isn't necessary.

[akaSeerone]

Define "you guys".

So slavery and marrying eight year old little girls is cool with you then?

And Jesus didn't really mean to chop off your offending hands or pluck you eyes out, He was just being all dramatic and ****ogous on those?


And the all bold caps isn't necessary.
WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID?

Andy

[awediot]

I no longer see a good reason to argue with anyone, about anything.

... in the sense of quarreling or fighting with someone about what he or she believes.

When what they believe guides their actions and increases unnecessary pain, arguing is a step before we physically restrain them.




Heh, it seems to me that you do NOT understand what I believe, yet.No ****.

...and I never expect to, fully... Do you expect others to?


Would you like me to explain my thoughts to you, some more, or have you heard enough, already ?We haven't been involved in discussion for even a week yet. I only **** off genuine simpletons and true creeps. You're neither... Let the process play out.


Hmm. I'll tell you what.

I share a little more, and if you want to hear more, after that, just let me know.

I believe I will continue to learn from our Father in heaven pretty much as I do now, with me now being able to go to God and receive answers from him, personally, about anything I want to know about, as long as he wants to teach me.

So, just as I believe I continue to need God to continue to learn and grow, NOW, I believe I will CONTINUE to need God to continue to learn and grow, LATER, even when I get to heaven, even though I may be learning a lot in heaven that I'm not learning right now on this Earth because God isn't ready to teach me those things I will learn later, just yet.

Your idea, or at least what I understand about your idea, is that you think you'll no longer need God for ANYTHING once you get to heaven, even though you may hang around and ***ociate with him, personally, sometimes, if and when you really want to.

Have I correctly conveyed your own thoughts about what you think you will be like in heaven ?No, you do not fully understand me, but that's fine... It hinges on how I see "Need". It to me is foremost a result of the fall, then a conditional thing... You underestimate what I think of as want...The want to "hang around" God will be far more powerful than any Need we feel today. I don't mean to come across as cavalier as you seem to be reading me.



I think you should consider what I am talking about to be heaven, then, because I'm talking about continuing to need God's divine intervention even after we get to heaven, while YOU are the one who is talking as if you think man, alone, can create the perfect society.No, you're the one who want's to eliminate the lovers of money, and speak of it like it's actually possible.





I don't think you've got the big picture that I am trying to convey, yet.

Heaven consists of many, many, many planets.

You talk as if all of Heaven is on only one planet or Celestial orb.Heaven will be as much a state of mind as reality...And I've barely begun to describe just this Orb. I'm not limiting us to anything.



So is "flying" what will be THE REALLY BIG DEAL, to you ?

Is that the grandest thing you can imagine doing once you are in heaven ?YOU brought it up here... (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=28896#poststop) "Do you think Adam and Eve were able to fly, somehow, in some way other than how we can fly now ?" ...I'm a lucid dreamer, and flying has always played a big part of that for as long as I can remember, so I like the metaphor (as flying is a universal fantasy everyone would love to do); but it is just a metaphor I ran with...

IOW, no, Heaven consists of much more than flying around.


I'm imagining something that involves my wife, and many children, personally.Good for you, but I'm gay, and set my sights (ironically) higher than breeding.



Well, at least not as much as we or some of us will later, if that's what you meant.Yes, that is what I meant.



I agree. What other option is there ?Back to top ^ ...

[theway]

Why do you guys keep side stepping the fact that THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD THAT GOD GAVE US FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS?

IF WHAT SOMEONE SAYS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE IT DOES NOT MEAN A THING AND NEEDS TO BE REJECTED.

AndyAre you saying that the Bible supersedes the Holy Ghost and Christ?
What about those times before the Bible was put together?
If the Holy Ghost told you that your interpretation of the Bible was wrong, would you believe Him?

[awediot]

WHAT DOES ANY OF THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID?

Andy


IF WHAT SOMEONE SAYS DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE IT DOES NOT MEAN A THING AND NEEDS TO BE REJECTED.
The condemnation of marrying children doesn't line up with the Bible. The moral disgust at owning and trading in human flesh as slaves does not line up with the Bible... Your refusal to save your offending hands and eyes, does not line up with the Bible...

Ought we reject them?

[akaSeerone]

Oh.....I get it now.....you are mocking the Bible and trying to find fault with it.

THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD THAT GOD HAS GIVEN MANKIND FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS.

Andy

[Bat-Man]

When what they believe guides their actions and increases unnecessary pain, arguing is a step before we physically restrain them.
Heh, try thinking that physically restraining someone would be a violation of their God-given agency to do as they please and that you better MAKE SURE that you... YOU... REALLY have God's authorization to do something like that if you... YOU... want to avoid getting yourself... YOU... into a WHOLE LOT OF TROUBLE !!!.

What I hear YOU saying sounds a lot like what members of the Catholic Church thought when they were persecuting people who did not agree with them... you know, when the persecuted became the persecutors !!!

... which is unrighteous dominion at its WORST, because they REALLY did NOT have God's authorization to do that.


No ****.

...and I never expect to, fully... Do you expect others to?
Only if they really want to.

I'll stick around and try to explain things to you as long as you REALLY what to know what I think, and I'm sure God will ALSO stick around to try to help you for as long as you really want HIS help, too.


We haven't been involved in discussion for even a week yet. I only **** off genuine simpletons and true creeps. You're neither... Let the process play out.
Sounds good to me.


No, you do not fully understand me, but that's fine...
It's not fine with me.

I seek to understand everyone, while putting God first, and THEN I either agree with who I can see is in agreement with God, OR I disagree with them because I can see they do not.


It hinges on how I see "Need". It to me is foremost a result of the fall, then a conditional thing... You underestimate what I think of as want...The want to "hang around" God will be far more powerful than any Need we feel today. I don't mean to come across as cavalier as you seem to be reading me.
If the Want you are considering will be even more powerful than any Need we feel today, then I think it makes good sense to call that a Need, too.


No, your the one who want's to eliminate the lovers of money, and speak of it like it's actually possible.
Yes. So ?

Do you think we'll need money in heaven, for some reason ?

I can visualize a really wonderful heaven without any need for any money at all, or those who love money.

Do you realize Jesus Christ said the love of money is the root of all evil ?

To me, that means that those who love the idea of having or using money are the ones who are causing all of the evil that is on this Earth now.

Why hang onto money when we live a better kind of life without it ?

It is possible.

We just need to serve others without requiring any money for our work.


Heaven will be as much a state of mind as reality...And I've barely begun to describe just this Orb. I'm not limiting us to anything.
Okay, then. I must have just got the wrong idea when you were referring to segregation and concentration camps, because I'm not considering any barriers other than those imposed by what people are willing, or not willing, to do.


YOU brought it up here... (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?p=28896#poststop) "Do you think Adam and Eve were able to fly, somehow, in some way other than how we can fly now ?" ...I'm a lucid dreamer, and flying has always played a big part of that for as long as I can remember, so I like the metaphor (as flying is a universal fantasy everyone would loves); but it is just a metaphor I ran with...
Oh, okay. I have and have had a lot of dreams concerning flying, too.

I was just a little puzzled about why you were talking about flying as if it was the best thing you could imagine doing, which is why I asked you if you considered flying to be the best thing you could imagine doing.


IOW, no, Heaven consists of much more than flying around.
Yes, I agree, but what do you imagine to be the best thing you could do ?


Good for you, but I'm gay, and set my sights (ironically) higher than breeding.
I appreciate knowing that about you. Thank you for sharing that with me.

So, what is the best thing you can imagine doing ?

If you can't have your own family, that leaves a lot out of the picture for you, and I don't believe anyone who is as good as our Father in heaven will allow you to adopt any of his or her children, in heaven.


Back to top ^ ...
Do you mean "arguing" ?

... in the sense of fighting or quarreling with someone about what he or she believes ?

No thank you.

[awediot]

Oh.....I get it now.....you are mocking the Bible and trying to find fault with it.

THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD THAT GOD HAS GIVEN MANKIND FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS.

Andy

Oh I am not. I'm a Christian... I am challenging your idolization of it.

[awediot]

Are you saying that the Bible supersedes the Holy Ghost and Christ?
What about those times before the Bible was put together?
If the Holy Ghost told you that your interpretation of the Bible was wrong, would you believe Him?
And which version of the Bible?

Inerrancy carried over to our own leather-bound book, is idolatry.

[Bat-Man]

Oh I am not. I'm a Christian... I am challenging your idolization of it.
Why are you "challenging" him ?

Why not just acknowledge his right to believe what he believes ?

You've already told him how you feel about the Bible, and if he doesn't agree with you, or with what YOU SAY God has told you, it's not your problem.

[awediot]

Heh, try thinking that physically restraining someone would be a violation of their God-given agency to do as they please and that you better MAKE SURE that you... YOU... REALLY have God's authorization to do something like that if you... YOU... want to avoid getting yourself... YOU... into a WHOLE LOT OF TROUBLE !!!.

What I hear YOU saying sounds a lot like what members of the Catholic Church thought when they were persecuting people who did not agree with them... you know, when the persecuted became the persecutors !!!

... which is unrighteous dominion at its WORST, because they REALLY did NOT have God's authorization to do that.

I'd be sure it is something God prefer I do (you read about that man who slapped a woman's child for crying in Walmart?..) I wouldn't've "argued" with him either.





It's not fine with me.

I seek to understand everyone, while putting God first, and THEN I either agree with who I can see is in agreement with God, OR I disagree with them because I can see they do not.Thus why I said "fully" understand.



If the Want you are considering will be even more powerful than any Need we feel today, then I think it makes good sense to call that a Need, too.But it is not "need" as we think of it today. That is my point.

"Language is a virus"...



Yes. So ?

Do you think we'll need money in heaven, for some reason ?

I can visualize a really wonderful heaven without any need for any money at all, or those who love money.

Do you realize Jesus Christ said the love of money is the root of all evil ?

To me, that means that those who love the idea of having or using money are the ones who are causing all of the evil that is on this Earth now.

Why hang onto money when we live a better kind of life without it ?

It is possible.

We just need to serve others without requiring any money for our work.Then quit your *** and lead the way...

I agree we should all be better and more charitable... It's the human story. Dream on...



Okay, then. I must have just got the wrong idea when you were referring to segregation and concentration camps, because I'm not considering any barriers other than those imposed by what people are willing, or not willing, to do.We approach the same page once again.



Oh, okay. I have and have had a lot of dreams concerning flying, too.

I was just a little puzzled about why you were talking about flying as if it was the best thing you could imagine doing, which is why I asked you if you considered flying to be the best thing you could imagine doing.No, of course not, just one seriously kick*** one.

So will being able to go under water without the need to breath... (just trivial, tactile fantasies)





I appreciate knowing that about you. Thank you for sharing that with me.Sure... I make no secret about it... Life's too short.


So, what is the best thing you can imagine doing ?The term "best" as applied to the state of "Heaven" sets up a dissonant resonance to me... It is "Perfect". There is no concievable scale from which I can think of good/better/best in the context of how I see Heaven. It will be as "good" as any individual can handle... Here on earth, it is better to visit the sick than waste your time on Playstation, but there are no sick in heaven... We won't have to help meet one another's needs, as we are called to do here. We will all have a mutual desire to serve those who no longer require anything from us...which to me is Love manifest...

So I guess, just Love, and see where that leads.


If you can't have your own family, that leaves a lot out of the picture for you, and I don't believe anyone who is as good as our Father in heaven will allow you to adopt any of his or her children, in heaven.Ya don't miss what you've never had...

And I'm not sure that we will continue to have kids in Heaven (another thread perhps)



Do you mean "arguing" ?

... in the sense of fighting or quarreling with someone about what he or she believes ?

No thank you."Arguing" to me is a relative term... I will never stop trying to convince some people about the truth (as I see it), on certain topics...because as I said, beliefs can cause needless, excess pain, and if I have a Truth which may stop it, it is my duty to try and get them to see it for the greater good... If this amounts to "arguing", so be it.

[awediot]

Why are you "challenging" him ?

Why not just acknowledge his right to believe what he believes ?

You've already told him how you feel about the Bible, and if he doesn't agree with you, or with what YOU SAY God has told you, it's not your problem.

Because I think believing falsehoods hurts people and those they have influence over.

I can't just shrug such things off.

Why'd you bother responding? Don't you think your way is better and I would be better off to adopt your way of thinking?

[Bat-Man]

Because I think believing falsehoods hurts people and those they have influence over.
You've already told him what you believe, though, haven't you ?

... while also telling him how he can find out what is true, for himself ?

If you've already done all of that, you've fulfilled your responsibility.

You don't need to keep whacking him over the head, or brow-beating him, so to speak.

He's the one responsible for disregarding what you have told him.


I can't just shrug such things off.
I can, once I know I've done all I can do, and all I can do is tell someone what I believe, and why I believe what I believe.

What else do you think you can do to help Andy ?


Why'd you bother responding?
I wanted to tell you what I thought about what you are doing.


Don't you think your way is better and I would be better off to adopt your way of thinking?
Of course, because my way of thinking is to find out what God thinks, and agree with him, but all I can do to help someone know what I believe is to tell them what I believe and why I believe what I believe, and then after that I am done.

[awediot]

You do see the irony of you YOURSELF now trying to convince me of something, don't you?

[awediot]

You just do not get it do you?

It is not what I think.....It is what the Bible says.

It is amazing how you keep ignoring the fact that THE BIBLE IS THE ONE AND ONLY STANDARD GOD GAVE US FOR LIFE AND GODLINESS.

Hey.....I do not expect you to get it, because if you did you would have to admit that you are under the influence of a pagan anti-Christ spirit guide that totally opposes God and His Word, the Bible.

Andy


Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD...

[Bat-Man]

I'd be sure it is something God prefer I do (you read about that man who slapped a woman's child for crying in Walmart?..) I wouldn't've "argued" with him either.
Okay. Just be REALLY sure it is what God would want tyou to do, otherwise you'll just be getting YOURSELF in a whole lot of trouble.

What would you have done for that woman, and the child, btw ?


Thus why I said "fully" understand.
What you said was that it's fine with you that I do not fully understand you, and I told you that that was not fine with ME... because MY goal is to understand... and fully understand... everyone.


But it is not "need" as we think of it today. That is my point.
It's even MORE of a Need, though, according to what you were saying, and yet you don't think we should call it a "Need"... which seems very strange to me.


"Language is a virus"...
It can be.

Language is also the only way we can truly express ourselves to other people.


Then quit your *** and lead the way...
I often provide services for other people without any desire for any money.

The only reason I work for money now is because OTHER PEOPLE won't work for FREE !


I agree we should all be better and more charitable... It's the human story. Dream on...
I do a lot more than just dream about it. I actually put my principles to work.

... and President Obama's so-called stimulus package SUCKS BIG TIME !!!


We approach the same page once again.
Turn the page.


No, of course not, just one seriously kick*** one.
Heh, yeah, but unless you're considering just flying around forever, you'll eventually need to land somewhere, either somewhere on a planet or on something else out there in space.


So will being able to go under water without the need to breath... (just trivial, tactile fantasies)
Yeah, that's a good one, too.

But there will be nothing better than having my own family, to me.


Sure... I make no secret about it... Life's too short.
I don't think anyone is "en***led" to know about your own private life, though.

... and it wouldn't hurt me if you didn't share that part of yourself with me.


The term "best" as applied to the state of "Heaven" sets up a dissonant resonance to me... It is "Perfect". There is no concievable scale from which I can think of good/better/best in the context of how I see Heaven. It will be as "good" as any individual can handle... Here on earth, it is better to visit the sick than waste your time on Playstation, but there are no sick in heaven... We won't have to help meet one another's needs, as we are called to do here. We will all have a mutual desire to serve those who no longer require anything from us...which to me is Love manifest...

So I guess, just Love, and see where that leads.
In some cases, and actually in most cases I can think of, I think the best thing to do is let others do what they want to do while sharing what you think is the best way to live with them.

For example: Our Father in heaven may never do anything to actually stop you from acting on your ****sexual tendencies, although he will tell you that you are not en***led to certain things because you are gay... like any children of your own, for example... and he may just send you to live on a planet somewhere out there in "heaven" where you will be treated just as he treats all other people who act on their ****sexual tendencies because he will consider that to be the best way to treat people who act, and are, like you.

... and while that wouldn't be the best way to live, for me, you may actually like it there, while you are surrounded by all of those gay people, without ever feeling any desire whatsoever to repent.

Thus, Heaven to one person is Hell to someone else, because "I" would consider myself to be in Hell if I was surrounded by nobody else but gay people.


Ya don't miss what you've never had...
Very true, so while you may never know how good it can be to have your own family, with your own spouse, to create your own children, I know I would miss something like that, very much.


And I'm not sure that we will continue to have kids in Heaven (another thread perhaps)
It will be possible, just as our Father in heaven has his own children now.


"Arguing" to me is a relative term... I will never stop trying to convince some people about the truth (as I see it), on certain topics...because as I said, beliefs can cause needless, excess pain, and if I have a Truth which may stop it, it is my duty to try and get them to see it for the greater good... If this amounts to "arguing", so be it.
Eh, okay. I'm just saying that I'm not into "arguing" anymore, myself.

I'll share what I believe, and why I believe what I believe, but I'm no longer going to go into "attack" mode, or the "I just have to SAVE that person" mode, if somebody doesn't accept what I know is true.

[awediot]

What would you have done for that woman, and the child, btw ?

Sympathized...bought the kid the "Slap-be-Gone" ointment... Offered a shoulder...

Question should be directed at what I would have done to the man...or better, what can I do NOW to change the mindset of someone who feels they've a right to slap a stranger's baby.



What you said was that it's fine with you that I do not fully understand you, and I told you that that was not fine with ME... because MY goal is to understand... and fully understand... everyone.And who on the planet do you fully (completely, totally) understand?

Even yourself?



It's even MORE of a Need, though, according to what you were saying, and yet you don't think we should call it a "Need"... which seems very strange to me.It is so much more...it is different than need... As though going from finding your future wife attractive, to feeling you'd be lost without her.



.............................I'm not going into politics, and money bores me...





I don't think anyone is "en***led" to know about your own private life, though.

... and it wouldn't hurt me if you didn't share that part of yourself with me.It provides context to my pov.



In some cases, and actually in most cases I can think of, I think the best thing to do is let others do what they want to do while sharing what you think is the best way to live with them.

Mostly agree.


For example: Our Father in heaven may never do anything to actually stop you from acting on your ****sexual tendencies, although he will tell you that you are not en***led to certain things because you are gay... like any children of your own, for example... and he may just send you to live on a planet somewhere out there in "heaven" where you will be treated just as he treats all other people who act on their ****sexual tendencies because he will consider that to be the best way to treat people who act, and are, like you.

... and while that wouldn't be the best way to live, for me, you may actually like it there, while you are surrounded by all of those gay people, without ever feeling any desire whatsoever to repent.

Thus, Heaven to one person is Hell to someone else, because "I" would consider myself to be in Hell if I was surrounded by nobody else but gay people.Yokay... And I hardly want to live on a gay planet... Not a big pink fan.

(and way off topic... feel free to discuss it here A few things to think about that "gay old time"... (http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/showthread.php?t=936))





I'll share what I believe, and why I believe what I believe, but I'm no longer going to go into "attack" mode, or the "I just have to SAVE that person" mode, if somebody doesn't accept what I know is true.okay.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD...

Thanks for actually demonstrating reasonable thought processes, Awediot. I've enjoyed your insights.

[awediot]

Thanks for actually demonstrating reasonable thought processes, Awediot. I've enjoyed your insights.

You flatter me FBT... Maybe it's one advantage of living life in part as a pariah. When you don't fit anywhere, you get an objectivity which keeps you a little saner than the average...defensive believer for God... I'm used to accepting I'm probably wrong, so can just blather on...

[stemelbow]

When I've pondered what Heaven might be like, the extreme thought I can have is the idea we get what we want...exactly, instantly...as we imagine it, and as well as we can imagine it, while remaining "real" and grounded in the New Earth and state of Heaven...

Makes ya feel hopeful that those in heaven, deep down, want whats best for others.

love,
stem

[awediot]

Makes ya feel hopeful that those in heaven, deep down, want whats best for others.

love,
stem

Well, yeah...but I'd prefer those who sign my paycheck and have access to my medicines and share my Walmart within bullet range, want whats best for others more than the dead do...

[stemelbow]

sounds great. You'd prefer everyone else look out for you.

love,
stem

[awediot]

sounds great. You'd prefer everyone else look out for you.

love,
stem
Lol... It's an expectation...no, a demand for common decency, stem.

Try it.

[stemelbow]

I get it. I was just playing around.

Sorry if you feel I don't have common decency, or courtesy.

love,
stem

[awediot]

I get it. I was just playing around.

Sorry if you feel I don't have common decency, or courtesy.

love,
stem

Sorry if your "playing around" makes you worry about such things.

[stemelbow]

Alright...let's move on. Peace to you on this Sabbath day.

love,
stem

[awediot]

Alright...let's move on. Peace to you on this Sabbath day.

love,
stem
http://www.roboteron.com/images/finchtsm.gifhttp://www.roboteron.com/images/linie_raupe.gif

[Bat-Man]

Lol... It's an expectation...no, a demand for common decency, stem.

Try it.
Heh, try being a "Mormon" while demanding that others treat you in the way that you think you should be treated.

[alanmolstad]

When I've pondered what Heaven might be like, .
Standing before the throne.

[alanmolstad]

When I've pondered what Heaven might be like, the extreme thought I can have is the idea we get what we want...exactly, instantly...as we imagine it, and as well as we can imagine it, while remaining "real" and grounded in the New Earth and state of Heaven...

Say you find yourself there, in a beautiful meadow, and desire an icecream Sundae... It appears, sort of...thin, transparent, with flavors and toppings that shift and swirl according to your less than well formed image of a "typical" Sundae... What sort of ice cream? Hard or soft? Really sweet or a little bitter like chocolate and earthy like vanilla? Caramel, marshmallow, fruit topping? Whipped Cream? Nuts or sprinkles?...In what shapped gl***?

...I think IF this is anything like Heaven may be, first thing we will learn is what rotten "imagineers" we really are...that we are not very good wishers at all.... If we want a home, or a palace...Where? Made of what? Built to what floor plan and with what sort of plants for landscaping? Etcetera...BIG Etcetera... Heaven will be in those details and accumulation, and "hardening" of the reality we want, and want to share with one another...

Over time, as we get good at it, this would logically lead to us creating another world, or planet...But as it would overlap and possibly conflict with other's ideas of their own world, we could create it both as part of Heaven's reality, and/or as distinct, separately, and store it in a box, to work on as a hobby and piece of art...an expression of our deepest thought and desires...

In that sense, we would be the "God" of that planet (or theoretically, Universe should we get so advanced)...but never really GOD... Then, we would run into the potent ability to possibly do what GOD did, and bring it to life...and take responsibility for that decision...and like Him, find it only to be meaningful to set it free enough to reject us...perhaps repeating the only history possible...

Would you let it hang you from a cross?


>This speculative thought process occurred without a trace of Mormonism coming to mind...but I see it now, having learned more, reflected in some of their unique teachings... I'm not a Mormon, nor foresee ever having a desire to become one...but, I can see how they may have been given additional insights in the future and making of our little race, and cannot help but respect that. There are certainly things I disagree with, and have no need to think any person who may have been given a few visions is necessarily a "Prophet" worth forming an entire religion around, but I find half-truths and both corrupted and exploited Truths within my own Christian religion... Seeking for the Ultimate Truth should not lead anyone to dismiss any particular religion, or denomination, belief system, sect, or even cult off-hand and in totality, as the more we do learn, the more mysterious and deep He does get...

The difference is, I can only ever re-create from the elements GOD has already given us little gods to play with. HE remains sacrosanct and Omnimax in a way always infinite steps ahead of me. All I can ever do is reflect Him, and point in His direction. I will never merge with Him, or return to His womb...and see no reason to want to.

"Say you find yourself there, in a beautiful meadow..."

The quotation is from the start of the OP's dream of what heaven is like..
This idea is like a lot of the dreams and visions I read about from people who write on this topic.

One odd thing I have noticed in a lot of such dreams of what heaven will be like, is that for some reason people always talk about a place where they find themselves alone....

alone in a field

alone in a big house

alone on a mountain top

many of the people that write on this topic always seem to open their story with a guy finding himself all alone.

Now some people will toss in the idea that "oh and my kids and grand kids will be there too"...but thats still alone, just you and your family by yourselves.


I cant say that concept if right or wrong...

I just know its not mine.


My idea of heaven is more crowded..
..Like packed stands watching a football game...type of packed with totally different people,,,people bumping next to other people that you dont know at all

[dberrie2000]

Now some people will toss in the idea that "oh and my kids and grand kids will be there too"...but thats still alone, just you and your family by yourselves.

I cant say that concept if right or wrong...

I just know its not mine.

My idea of heaven is more crowded...Like packed stands watching a football game...type of packed with totally different people,,,people bumping next to other people that you dont know at all

Maybe--but this is the testimony of the Savior:


Matthew 7:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.