Why do Christians tell so many lies?

[TRiG]

I've been collecting examples of Christians lying for the past few months. And I haven't even been looking for them. I never went looking for examples of lying Christians. I was just following the news that interested me, and a lot of lying Christians just happened to be there.

The vast majority of the posts below are examples of Christians lying. A couple are examples of Christians being hypocrites. And one is completely irrelevant and has been stuck in there for the fun of it.

There are fifty-seven links. That doesn't mean there are fifty-six examples. I have occasionally linked to two different takes on the same story.

TRiG.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/25/16005
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/deaf-ear-blind-eye-to-problem-folks-willing-to-deaf-eye-the-law.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/its-just-good-for-frc-that-crimes-against-truth-arent-tracked.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/and-before-you-get-ideas-frc-good-morning-america-doesnt-mean-entire-nations-been-officially-good-morninged.html
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/23/15889
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/stand-for-marriage-maine-the-most-intellectually-offensive-campaign-weve-ever-faced.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/whatever-the-benefits-and-burdens-of-the-civil-ins***ution-of-marriage-the-states-definition-of-marriage-has-no-bearing.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/audio-breadth-of-gay-rights-breathlessly-bashed.html
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/10/middle-school-age-youth-more-open-to-coming-out-exodus-youth-responds/
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/silence_death.php
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/16/15627
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/poor_ardipithecusexploited_aga.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/conservapdia_has_a_new_project.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/video-coral-ridge-ministries-grabs-low-bar-plunges-it-to-unexplored-depths.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/were-sorry-we-ruin-your-days-linds-were-even-sorrier-that-you-want-to-ruin-our-marriages.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/dear-concerned-woman-lindsey-douthit.html
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/09/christian-spank.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/throw_the_teachers_in_jaila_po.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/teens-as-victims-of-peer-pressure-once-removed.html
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12974/parents-sue-to-keep-school-children-from-learning-about-bullying-lgbt-families
http://pageoneq.com/news/2007/Wayne_Besen_Nude_warrior_adve_1128.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/08/for_all_the_wrong_reasons.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/08/maggie-gallagher-whats-in-a-name.html
http://fstdt.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preach&action=display&thread=1347
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE6uVGQaCsU
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/08/filling-in-noms-conveniently-excised-words.html
http://www.sdcitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/ironic_divorce/8366/
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2009/08/3671/
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/st_20090808_9125.php
http://www.sdcitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/ironic_divorce/8366/
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12346/the-religious-right-will-not-learn-from-the-tel-aviv-tragedy
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/08/03/13840
http://www.the1585.com/oneamonth.htm
http://www.beyondhomophobia.com/blog/2008/07/04/jesse-helms-if-you-want-to-call-me-a-bigot-fine/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWMxUsTjhY0
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/07/30/yours/
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/30/13625
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/oh-my-laurie.html
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/27/13536
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12186/evening-open-threadhow-about-this-christian-billboard
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/concerned-non-dowdy-non-surgically-induced-clearly-gender-roled-conservative-women-for-america.html
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/16/11298
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/we-too-are-in-this-game-to-protect-children.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/boy-starved-for-not-saying-amen/story-e6freuy9-1225750303740
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/hate-crimes-lies-carried-to-a-new-level.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/but-but-but----we-want-a-company-to-print-our-rights-depriving-hostility-without-restraint.html
http://www.bilerico.com/2007/11/the_airport_couple.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/clearly_no_one_watches_fox_new.php
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25526027-23109,00.html
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/christian_conservatives_oppose.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/06/you-are-still-cordially-invited.html
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/06/omg_gays_go_to_prom.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/06/gay_kids_dance.php
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/pspauld/BlogPix/21j7neh.gif
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/02/9309
http://www.slapupsidethehead.com/2008/09/social-justice-course-yanked-by-religious-groups/

[Columcille]

I've been collecting examples of Christians lying for the past few months. And I haven't even been looking for them. I never went looking for examples of lying Christians. I was just following the news that interested me, and a lot of lying Christians just happened to be there.

The vast majority of the posts below are examples of Christians lying. A couple are examples of Christians being hypocrites. And one is completely irrelevant and has been stuck in there for the fun of it.

There are fifty-seven links. That doesn't mean there are fifty-six examples. I have occasionally linked to two different takes on the same story.

TRiG.

I would say this is a hit and run post if ever I saw one.

1) Christians are not immune to erroring.

2) Since your comments are generalities, what you may consider to yourself a lie may be just a disagreement in the conclusions a Christian makes based on the information they used to arrive at their conclusions.

I certainly do not want to chase all the bunny rabbits you would like to jump on. It is not a productive use of my time. Perhaps you should give your strongest evidence and only discuss that one. At this present time, I would deduce that the examples you would give could fall into one of the two catagories above. When I was a Protestant, I did see a lot of examples that fall into catagory 1, where they did error. Whether their error was intentional or not, seems not to matter much to you. For the act of lying has two components, both components must be in play to make a statement a lie.

1) a statement is itself an error. Let's use "Liar, Liar!" as an example, "*holding a blue pen* The color of the pen is re-, the color of the pen is re-... THE COLOR OF THE PEN THAT I HOLD IN MY HAND IS RE- ROYAL BLUE!~"

He was attempting to say that the pen was red. But as a matter of perception, to a color blind person, the percieved color be wrong. Hence if a color blind person were to hold a blue pen and say that it is green would be correct to his perception. In many cases, a Christian that has been taught something his whole life, just as in any religion being raised up in, may be just repeating something that is taught him that at the moment makes sense to his perception. This would be one of ignorance and not a lie. 2) it must be intentional. A lie is a deliberate motivated statement that the person making it knows absolutely that it is not a truth. Hence, a person who cheats on his wife, when asked if he cheated on her, will deny the claim on the basis of it revealing his shameful act and the potential consequences of such exposure. You might have to prove intention, where you are not God to be able to see into the heart of the man. You would have to show two statements in context, and within a reasonable time frame; for people can change their views based on different factors, and also based on their tone, for sarcasm may be understood on face value as being something deliberately held.

[MacG]

I've been collecting examples of Christians lying for the past few months. And I haven't even been looking for them. I never went looking for examples of lying Christians. I was just following the news that interested me, and a lot of lying Christians just happened to be there.

The vast majority of the posts below are examples of Christians lying. A couple are examples of Christians being hypocrites. And one is completely irrelevant and has been stuck in there for the fun of it.

There are fifty-seven links. That doesn't mean there are fifty-six examples. I have occasionally linked to two different takes on the same story.

TRiG.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/25/16005
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/deaf-ear-blind-eye-to-problem-folks-willing-to-deaf-eye-the-law.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/its-just-good-for-frc-that-crimes-against-truth-arent-tracked.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/and-before-you-get-ideas-frc-good-morning-america-doesnt-mean-entire-nations-been-officially-good-morninged.html
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/23/15889
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/stand-for-marriage-maine-the-most-intellectually-offensive-campaign-weve-ever-faced.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/whatever-the-benefits-and-burdens-of-the-civil-ins***ution-of-marriage-the-states-definition-of-marriage-has-no-bearing.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/10/audio-breadth-of-gay-rights-breathlessly-bashed.html
http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2009/10/middle-school-age-youth-more-open-to-coming-out-exodus-youth-responds/
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/10/silence_death.php
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/16/15627
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/poor_ardipithecusexploited_aga.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/conservapdia_has_a_new_project.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/video-coral-ridge-ministries-grabs-low-bar-plunges-it-to-unexplored-depths.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/were-sorry-we-ruin-your-days-linds-were-even-sorrier-that-you-want-to-ruin-our-marriages.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/dear-concerned-woman-lindsey-douthit.html
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2007/09/christian-spank.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/throw_the_teachers_in_jaila_po.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/09/teens-as-victims-of-peer-pressure-once-removed.html
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12974/parents-sue-to-keep-school-children-from-learning-about-bullying-lgbt-families
http://pageoneq.com/news/2007/Wayne_Besen_Nude_warrior_adve_1128.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/08/for_all_the_wrong_reasons.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/08/maggie-gallagher-whats-in-a-name.html
http://fstdt.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preach&action=display&thread=1347
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE6uVGQaCsU
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/08/filling-in-noms-conveniently-excised-words.html
http://www.sdcitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/ironic_divorce/8366/
http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/2009/08/3671/
http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/st_20090808_9125.php
http://www.sdcitybeat.com/cms/story/detail/ironic_divorce/8366/
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12346/the-religious-right-will-not-learn-from-the-tel-aviv-tragedy
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/08/03/13840
http://www.the1585.com/oneamonth.htm
http://www.beyondhomophobia.com/blog/2008/07/04/jesse-helms-if-you-want-to-call-me-a-bigot-fine/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWMxUsTjhY0
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/07/30/yours/
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/30/13625
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/oh-my-laurie.html
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/27/13536
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12186/evening-open-threadhow-about-this-christian-billboard
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/concerned-non-dowdy-non-surgically-induced-clearly-gender-roled-conservative-women-for-america.html
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/07/16/11298
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/we-too-are-in-this-game-to-protect-children.html
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/boy-starved-for-not-saying-amen/story-e6freuy9-1225750303740
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/hate-crimes-lies-carried-to-a-new-level.html
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/07/but-but-but----we-want-a-company-to-print-our-rights-depriving-hostility-without-restraint.html
http://www.bilerico.com/2007/11/the_airport_couple.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/07/clearly_no_one_watches_fox_new.php
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25526027-23109,00.html
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/06/christian_conservatives_oppose.php
http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2009/06/you-are-still-cordially-invited.html
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/06/omg_gays_go_to_prom.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/06/gay_kids_dance.php
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/pspauld/BlogPix/21j7neh.gif
http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/03/02/9309
http://www.slapupsidethehead.com/2008/09/social-justice-course-yanked-by-religious-groups/

There's some weird stuff in there. I am sure that I could find as many non Christian and as many Athiest stories if that was my focus. I figure the JW's and the church must have messed with you pretty good to have this much passion to post this many links (in my sampling at least one has nothing to do with Christianity I did not view all of them and one of the failed faith healing groups are not Christian.)

As to why there "so many" lies. One is not born a Christian. Christians start out as sinners. Some of us come from the depths of depravity and if genuine in their profession they will grow in wisdom and stature by the daily renewing of their mind. This takes time. As our flesh wrestles against our spirit some will grow faster than others. As with the parable of the seed and sower we receive the word with joy and some die quickly for lack of depth, some grow only to be choked out by the cares of the world - these would be the least Christ like. Now there is another parable about seeds and 2 sowers. The second sower sowed weeds among the good seed and it is allowed to grow intespersed among the good seed. These would be the wolves in sheeps clothing and those who are Christian in name only.

The thing is Trig Jesus is not any of these things. If you keep looking for data supporting your disbelief of God you will find it but if you try to falsify your theory you will need a broader, more inclusive data set.

Dwayne Dyer was once asked by an attendee of one of his seminars "I am thinking of moving here. What are the people like here?" "What are they like where you live?" came the reply. "They're kind of stuck up." "They're like that here too". Another asked him the same question, he asked the same thing and her reply was that the people were generally nice people where she was from. He said "They're like that here too." Same town, only what they were focused on was different.

The amazing thing about Christianity to me is that as one reads the New Testament it is clear that all of the Churches have struggles from the beginning and will through to the end. When was the last time you read revelation chapters 2 and 3? It was never written that the Church will be sinless here on earth.

Grace and Peace,

MacG

[GiGi]

One more lie told by christians!!!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/17world/main5392572.shtml

[GiGi]

Tonight a group of sincere and devoted baptists will be meeting in a little N.C. church. They say fried chicken and bar-b-que will be served. Yumm!
Do you think they are
correct?
mistaken?
lying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FkbgeR8LKs&feature=player_embedded

[TRiG]

There's some weird stuff in there. I am sure that I could find as many non Christian and as many Athiest stories if that was my focus. I figure the JW's and the church must have messed with you pretty good to have this much passion to post this many links (in my sampling at least one has nothing to do with Christianity I did not view all of them and one of the failed faith healing groups are not Christian.)There is indeed some weird stuff in there.

As I said, I wasn't going out looking for Christian lies. I just read blogs. And I make notes of interesting links. Yesterday, I just went through my list of links and pulled out all the Christian lies and hypocrisy. It didn't take much effort or passion. The vast majority are Christian organisations, not individuals. In fact, I think I included only one individual: Douglas Manchester.

I'm an atheist. It would be very arrogant of me to attempt to define who is and who is not Christian. If you consider yourself to be Christian then, as far as I'm concerned, you are. You say some of these links had nothing to do with Christianity. Perhaps you could tell me which links you've looked at and we could consider them in more detail.

TRiG.:)

[TRiG]

Here's another, showing extreme hate and bigotry from Christian leaders.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/11/02/16160

[GiGi]

Here's another, showing extreme hate and bigotry from Christian leaders.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/11/02/16160
Its hate and bigotry which itself is based entirely on LIES. Its appropriate to the OP. Thanks Trig.

[ActRaiser]

"Gays typically live 20 year shorter lifespans. We have to save them from the horrors of the gay lifestyle by killing them." :rolleyes:

We can ecspecially understand how ****** this is because we are Christians.

[GiGi]

"Gays typically live 20 year shorter lifespans. We have to save them from the horrors of the gay lifestyle by killing them." :rolleyes:

We can ecspecially understand how ****** this is because we are Christians.
Incredibly stup*d! Yet, the vast majority of christians view homosexuality as a disease, or an immoral choice. They're hope is to protect themselves, their children, and society - not to mention their souls - from the 'evil' homosexuals.
Until we all accept the fact that homosexuality is an aspect of human sexuality, just as normal and natural as heterosexuality, this kind of hatred and bigotry will continue.

[Columcille]

1) Christians are not immune to erroring.

2) Since your comments are generalities, what you may consider to yourself a lie may be just a disagreement in the conclusions a Christian makes based on the information they used to arrive at their conclusions.

I certainly do not want to chase all the bunny rabbits you would like to jump on. It is not a productive use of my time. Perhaps you should give your strongest evidence and only discuss that one. At this present time, I would deduce that the examples you would give could fall into one of the two catagories above. When I was a Protestant, I did see a lot of examples that fall into catagory 1, where they did error. Whether their error was intentional or not, seems not to matter much to you. For the act of lying has two components, both components must be in play to make a statement a lie.

1) a statement is itself an error. Let's use "Liar, Liar!" as an example, "*holding a blue pen* The color of the pen is re-, the color of the pen is re-... THE COLOR OF THE PEN THAT I HOLD IN MY HAND IS RE- ROYAL BLUE!~"

He was attempting to say that the pen was red. But as a matter of perception, to a color blind person, the percieved color be wrong. Hence if a color blind person were to hold a blue pen and say that it is green would be correct to his perception. In many cases, a Christian that has been taught something his whole life, just as in any religion being raised up in, may be just repeating something that is taught him that at the moment makes sense to his perception. This would be one of ignorance and not a lie. 2) it must be intentional. A lie is a deliberate motivated statement that the person making it knows absolutely that it is not a truth. Hence, a person who cheats on his wife, when asked if he cheated on her, will deny the claim on the basis of it revealing his shameful act and the potential consequences of such exposure. You might have to prove intention, where you are not God to be able to see into the heart of the man. You would have to show two statements in context, and within a reasonable time frame; for people can change their views based on different factors, and also based on their tone, for sarcasm may be understood on face value as being something deliberately held.

Bump. It would be a good discussion, if you can please demonstrate one of your strongest examples fits the two components of a lie and it is not something you just personally disagree with. If all you feel is that giving rep points and sharing pla***udes to people who just happen to agree with you is a viable answer, I would have to conclude that you think use of smokescreens as humor, sidestepping, subjectivity, and red herrings are valid logical and reasonable methods. Let's pick one example to avoid red herrings, lets not make quick humorous Bob Hope one line antics to discredit your opposition, and let's not dodge the issue by overloading with numerous links and above all try to aviod subjectivity by appealing to your friends for encouragement when you haven't really presented anything of substance to the discussion.

[IncitingRiots]

Trig - I looked through quite a few of those links and didn't see any examples of Christians lying. I saw a story about a child that was starved to death by a cult and several stories about gay people, but no examples of Christians lying. If you are going to take the time to seek out links perhaps you should provide links that back up what you say.

[sunofmysoul]

Tonight a group of sincere and devoted baptists will be meeting in a little N.C. church. They say fried chicken and bar-b-que will be served. Yumm!
Do you think they are
correct?
mistaken?
lying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FkbgeR8LKs&feature=player_embedded

I do believe they will be a roasting.....
can you imagine if the "banned books" were instead sold on ebay and the money sent to kids who need food? sigh.....
this was unbelievable!!!:eek:

billy Graham hit the hairytick burn list as well...wow...

[GiGi]

I do believe they will be a roasting.....
can you imagine if the "banned books" were instead sold on ebay and the money sent to kids who need food? sigh.....
this was unbelievable!!!:eek:

billy Graham hit the hairytick burn list as well...wow...
I wondered if they were "lying" because I figured there must be an unrevealed, underlying motive.
Maybe the book burning was an investment in advertising. Do you think they got a tax write-off for the cost of the books?

[sunofmysoul]

I've been collecting examples of Christians lying for the past few months. And I haven't even been looking for them. I never went looking for examples of lying Christians. I was just following the news that interested me, and a lot of lying Christians just happened to be there.

The vast majority of the posts below are examples of Christians lying. A couple are examples of Christians being hypocrites. And one is completely irrelevant and has been stuck in there for the fun of it.

There are fifty-seven links. That doesn't mean there are fifty-six examples. I have occasionally linked to two different takes on the same story.

TRiG.



I popped on a couple...
and i get the trying to stir the waters here...
just not sure what you are trying to accomplish (unless it is JUST that..)

I got news for ya...
you could probably find as many links of Christians who have committed adultery, are in prison for fraud, or various other things. (and even if these links are not completely accurate, i have no problem assuming they could be found...)
the two defenses are A. Not a true Christian (for the really bad things like murder, child pros***ution/rape etc)
B. no christian is perfect all have sinned, etc..Christians aren't perfect just forgiven.

I think it must be noted that Christianity does however teach not to lie, not to cheat, not to steal, rape, murder etc.

The principles taught in Christianity do not guarantee that everyone who "claims' to follow, or even tries to follow will become perfect.

[GiGi]

I think it must be noted that Christianity does however teach not to lie, not to cheat, not to steal, rape, murder etc.

All (?) religions have a version of the Golden Rule. Atheists favor socially acceptable behavior as well.
I think it ruffles feathers when practicing christians do these things. Mainly because the ins***ution, which is christianity, prides itself on the effectiveness of its own teaching of these values.

[sunofmysoul]

All (?) religions have a version of the Golden Rule. Atheists favor socially acceptable behavior as well.
I think it ruffles feathers when practicing christians do these things. Mainly because the ins***ution, which is christianity, prides itself on the effectiveness of its own teaching of these values.

yes, i agree and understand.
To be clear,
(I was stating two arguments i hear usually in such a defense of there NOT being such a difference)

Jesus said His followers were to be a light, that could be seen,
salt of the earth...

We are supposed to be different...

[sunofmysoul]

I wondered if they were "lying" because I figured there must be an unrevealed, underlying motive.
Maybe the book burning was an investment in advertising. Do you think they got a tax write-off for the cost of the books?

I have no idea...(their appear to be only 11 members so probably not that many books to burn...:D)
but i have met a couple in my history who were adamant king jamesers to the point of ,i believe, a willingness to burn any other translations as NOT God's word.
can't quite wrap my mind around understanding this thought...
but...
but i can honestly believe it...
(not much surprises me anymore in our capability of "isms"/dogma/bigotry/supers***ion) hoping we continue to evolve...:D

[Columcille]

All (?) religions have a version of the Golden Rule. Atheists favor socially acceptable behavior as well.
I think it ruffles feathers when practicing christians do these things. Mainly because the ins***ution, which is christianity, prides itself on the effectiveness of its own teaching of these values.

There is a paradox Gigi, something in regards to the duality of mankind's ability to be both an agent for good and an agent for bad. The Christian idea of evil and good is one that I think is the most real. Nobody is evil for the sakes of evil, it is always a perversion of good. Hitler killing 6 millions Jews is evil, but his intention was to create a perfect race, to help the German people rise out of their economic distress caused by the Treaty of Versallies' reparations.

In a similar fashion, Christianity is both easy and extremely hard simultaneously. The teachings of Christ go against our natural inclination for hatred, envy, lust, and a lot of other passions. Once someone is aware of it, it becomes much harder. A man who is content with his drug abuse once he is aware that he has a problem and denies himself from his addition does his struggle become much greater. This is why the message of forgiveness is so prevalent in the Scriptures and in the teaching of the Church. We are striving to become more and more like Christ, so it is a matter of progress, not some perfect utopia on earth. You stated before GiGi, regarding your views on the child molester, murderer, and other undesirables some deep seated unforgiving at***ude. To me, the best living examples in modern history of such a forgiving at***ude is found in the unconventional wisdom and activities of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr and in Mahatma Gandhi. Both of them had religious convictions, both of them are respected. As such, your judgement of religion in general is too harsh and embellished.

[GiGi]

There is a paradox Gigi, something in regards to the duality of mankind's ability to be both an agent for good and an agent for bad. The Christian idea of evil and good is one that I think is the most real. Nobody is evil for the sakes of evil, it is always a perversion of good. Hitler killing 6 millions Jews is evil, but his intention was to create a perfect race, to help the German people rise out of their economic distress caused by the Treaty of Versallies' reparations.

In a similar fashion, Christianity is both easy and extremely hard simultaneously. The teachings of Christ go against our natural inclination for hatred, envy, lust, and a lot of other passions. Once someone is aware of it, it becomes much harder. A man who is content with his drug abuse once he is aware that he has a problem and denies himself from his addition does his struggle become much greater. This is why the message of forgiveness is so prevalent in the Scriptures and in the teaching of the Church. We are striving to become more and more like Christ, so it is a matter of progress, not some perfect utopia on earth. You stated before GiGi, regarding your views on the child molester, murderer, and other undesirables some deep seated unforgiving at***ude. To me, the best living examples in modern history of such a forgiving at***ude is found in the unconventional wisdom and activities of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr and in Mahatma Gandhi. Both of them had religious convictions, both of them are respected. As such, your judgement of religion in general is too harsh and embellished.
Who told you that people have a natural inclination for hatred and lust? Oh yeah, that's your religion.
My opinion of the rapist and murderer comes, in part, from experience treating these incarcerated offenders, knowing too many details, stepping out of my comfort zone. Forgive them, if it helps you sleep at night.
My judgement of religion is harsh, but its not embellished.

[GiGi]

We are supposed to be different...
I believe you are.

[asdf]

TRiG, you tagged your post with "hypocracy" - may want to change it to "hypocrisy".

[TRiG]

TRiG, you tagged your post with "hypocracy" - may want to change it to "hypocrisy".
That's because I can't spell. Thanks.

TRiG.:)

[Columcille]

Hey Trig, still waiting for one demonstration of a Christian lying.

Gigi, I was a correctional officer as well, although in a county jail. Still we had our share of some of the worst, perhaps not serial killers, but still the State sent us quite a few, I suppose from the lack of room. Anyways, I am on the far right in the picture, I believe State inmates housed in our county jail paid twice as much as local inmates per day to support the day to day operations. Of course we had furloughs and a work release program on occasions. Anyways, they are still human beings, ones that made great errors, but I do not think these errors were in a vacuum. Typically, I think many come from dysfunctional familys, physical abuse, and some form of addiction. As Ted Bundy shared with Dr. James Dobson, it was pornography that was first introduced into his lifestyle, and then on to harder stuff before he started his killing spree. I have been lucky enough not to have any close friends and family members victimized in such a horrible manner. Still, what good is it to hold a grudge or carry a chip on your shoulder for the rest of your life? Forgiveness is a healthy psychological principle. I have never heard from a psychologist that bearing a grudge was a healthy thing to maintain. I am both an optimist and a cynic when it came to dealing with inmates. Maintaining space was a safety thing, listening to some of their legitimate complaints as well as some of the fabrications I found to be a preventative from having to use my pepper spray or increasing tensions. I've had a few fellow COs that treated them like dirt, and they were the ones that always seemed to have the need to pull out the pepper.

[GiGi]

Hey Trig, still waiting for one demonstration of a Christian lying.

Gigi, I was a correctional officer as well, although in a county jail. Still we had our share of some of the worst, perhaps not serial killers, but still the State sent us quite a few, I suppose from the lack of room. Anyways, I am on the far right in the picture, I believe State inmates housed in our county jail paid twice as much as local inmates per day to support the day to day operations. Of course we had furloughs and a work release program on occasions. Anyways, they are still human beings, ones that made great errors, but I do not think these errors were in a vacuum. Typically, I think many come from dysfunctional familys, physical abuse, and some form of addiction. As Ted Bundy shared with Dr. James Dobson, it was pornography that was first introduced into his lifestyle, and then on to harder stuff before he started his killing spree. I have been lucky enough not to have any close friends and family members victimized in such a horrible manner. Still, what good is it to hold a grudge or carry a chip on your shoulder for the rest of your life? Forgiveness is a healthy psychological principle. I have never heard from a psychologist that bearing a grudge was a healthy thing to maintain. I am both an optimist and a cynic when it came to dealing with inmates. Maintaining space was a safety thing, listening to some of their legitimate complaints as well as some of the fabrications I found to be a preventative from having to use my pepper spray or increasing tensions. I've had a few fellow COs that treated them like dirt, and they were the ones that always seemed to have the need to pull out the pepper.
I met a gentleman, late 60s, doing time for rape. The victims, 2 girls, 1 boy, were his grandchildren. His wife was held at a nearby women's facility. The children were visiting their grandparents during part of their summer vacation.
Another fellow, he was in max, charged with child pornography, and sex abuse. He said he didn't know it was a crime. He was a pharmacist.

Sympathy and forgiveness wasn't part of my job description. Good thing.

I don't know about the pharmacist, but Grandpa was a 'good' christian. Cried a lot. It made me want to hurl.

Did I abuse these men? Of course not. I did my job in a safe and professional manner. No chip on my shoulder.

During my time at the prison, I treated all manner of routine illness, and injury, chronic conditions, and medical emergencies. 4 men, that I knew well, died. I never lost a moments sleep.

According to christian doctrine, I will be punished, Grandpa is forgiven. Go figure.

[GiGi]

they were the ones that always seemed to have the need to pull out the pepper.
Defusing tense situations is part of the training. Forgivness is not.

[Columcille]

According to christian doctrine, I will be punished, Grandpa is forgiven. Go figure.

Punishment of a just nature requires that a person has the capacity to know the truth, and if they do not repent, to remain seperated from God's presence. According to Romans 1.18-20, the wrath of God is revealed to mankind, and he is known through his creation so that nobody is without excuse. The punishment that is used tends to be rather intense images, such as fire, darkness, loneliness, and many other terms. However, nobody has ever come back from hell to us to describe the punishment. Its use is more a shock metaphor to intensify the seriousness of disobedience to God in whatever capacity the person knows him. In like manner, there is much symbols and imagery to describe God's kingdom as having many mansions, or descriptive of a New Jerusalem, and a lot more things. To me the best description of Hell and that punishment is actually from an old Twilight Zone episode called "A Nice Place To Visit." http://www.tv.com/the-twilight-zone/a-nice-place-to-visit/episode/12612/summary.html Click on Watch episode.
I also think much of CS Lewis' book "The Great Divorce." I am also inclined to view "Paradise Lost" by Milton as a deeper look into the motives of pride and other vices. The imagery is much more powerful, but it suits the same purpose I think the Scripture's use of such imagery displays. All in all, I think everyone get's what they want. And as everyone notes about a spoiled child that gets their way all the time, they are the most malcontents ever. I think my submitting to God, will make me a more content person, a better person, in hopes that I can imitate other Saints as they imitated Christ. As far as the person just coming into God's kingdom just barely by the skin of their teeth, their situation in heaven is not necessary going to be of equal status with someone like St. Patrick or St. Francis of Assisi or of even a really good Christian you might know personally. The progression of the doctrine of Purgatory I think demonstrates this aspect rather clearly. The main text of Scripture used is found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. The question is not for me to decide, just how dark is your imagination?

[GiGi]

I always thought, the trouble with fiction is, sooner or later, you have to close the book, and get back to reality. Looks like I was wrong.

[Columcille]

I always thought, the trouble with fiction is, sooner or later, you have to close the book, and get back to reality. Looks like I was wrong.

Fiction has several genres, and each genre has a specific purpose. The main concern in myth as a genre is to explain origin of things, mostly the use of metaphors and tales offers an explanation with a teachable moral or a teachable culture identifier. Hence, the folk stories and myths found in Japan help identify to the people a sense of family, a certain "ethos" of what it means to be uniquely Japanese. The stories may be false, but the moral, the perceptions of what it means to be something are not something to "close the book" on. What makes reading JRR Tolkien's "TLOTR" so enjoyable is that it is a world within a world. I do not know any other series that has the same details of a workable myth. The stories found in the Silmarillion provides a backdrop in the "TLOTR" to make it an almost cultic icon. The myth may not be real... but it provides our imaginations not just something entertaining, but something we take out of it as very real and applicable. The stories of self-sacrifice, the smallness and inconsequential little people known as hobbits and their role in the larger world of Middle-Earth, of the stuggles between the forces of good, like Gandalf and Aragorn, against the forces of evil, as Sauron, as well as those that have been corrupted like Saruman. These aspects not only make the story entertaining, not just a good book, but a great book, one with a lasting legacy.

[GiGi]

Fiction has several genres, and each genre has a specific purpose. The main concern in myth as a genre is to explain origin of things, mostly the use of metaphors and tales offers an explanation with a teachable moral or a teachable culture identifier. Hence, the folk stories and myths found in Japan help identify to the people a sense of family, a certain "ethos" of what it means to be uniquely Japanese. The stories may be false, but the moral, the perceptions of what it means to be something are not something to "close the book" on. What makes reading JRR Tolkien's "TLOTR" so enjoyable is that it is a world within a world. I do not know any other series that has the same details of a workable myth. The stories found in the Silmarillion provides a backdrop in the "TLOTR" to make it an almost cultic icon. The myth may not be real... but it provides our imaginations not just something entertaining, but something we take out of it as very real and applicable. The stories of self-sacrifice, the smallness and inconsequential little people known as hobbits and their role in the larger world of Middle-Earth, of the stuggles between the forces of good, like Gandalf and Aragorn, against the forces of evil, as Sauron, as well as those that have been corrupted like Saruman. These aspects not only make the story entertaining, not just a good book, but a great book, one with a lasting legacy.

You've given us a nice explanation for religion, one I can agree with. The old stories gave us a sense of belonging and purpose. They often gave us heroes to admire and villians to despise. The victories those heroes enjoyed, gave us hope.

I was a 'Trekkie' before that term was introduced. The series gave us a glimpse of the future. It dealt with complicated issues. It addressed morality, racism, fairness, war, and host of other problems in 30 minutes a day. Yet, I never thought of it as anything but fiction.

[Columcille]

I was a 'Trekkie' before that term was introduced. The series gave us a glimpse of the future. It dealt with complicated issues. It addressed morality, racism, fairness, war, and host of other problems in 30 minutes a day. Yet, I never thought of it as anything but fiction.

I never did like the other Star Trek run-offs. Only the original series with William Shatner. I didn't have that problem that Weird Al had in knowing which he liked better, Kirk or Picard, in "White & Nerdy" about 2.16 in the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbVtbc_XzrI&feature=related.

Star Trek is a good example, but sci-fi does not as a genre carry the majesty of myth. It is definitely going to be in annals of history of popular modern folk tales in television format. Its influence is undeniable. As such, I may think it odd that someone would learn Klingon, but so is people learning Elvish. I think some of the quotes in the following link kind of inspiring:
http://www.tolkien-online.com/tolkien-language.html

Especially 'a primary ‘fact’ about my work, that it is all of a piece, and fundamentally linguistic in inspiration…The invention of language is the foundation. To me a name comes first and the story follows.” (Letters p. 219)"

and in relation to my belief about mythology the previous quote:
“he realized that language presupposed a mythology”.

After all, it was myth that convinced Lewis to change from theism to becoming a Christian. This line of reasoning to me also seems powerful. One I think more Christians should be investigating.

[GiGi]

219)

After all, it was myth that convinced Lewis to change from theism to becoming a Christian. This line of reasoning to me also seems powerful. One I think more Christians should be investigating.
I appreciate that you are willing to admit that its all just myth. Its important that 21st century christians understand this, and not let it bogg them down.

[asdf]

I appreciate that you are willing to admit that its all just myth. Its important that 21st century christians understand this, and not let it bogg them down.

Yeah, Lewis famously said that Christianity is "a myth that is also a fact".

[Columcille]

I appreciate that you are willing to admit that its all just myth. Its important that 21st century christians understand this, and not let it bogg them down.

Yes, I admit it is all myth, but Christianity is the myth that became real. The creative use of the imagination of man is what inspires progress. The capacity for you to see things as unethical seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. The motifs of the dying god in myth teach us a story of the importance of sacrifice, it is viewed by many as being profound and teaching a great truth, but when faced with Christianity the same motif is violently rejected, it has somehow lost its profound meaning simply because its wisdom is considered foolish, and yet the passive religion suffered greatly against all odds and became a preferred religion during Constantine. It would be amazing if Islam would allow Christianity to be taught, for its idea of martyrdom is to blow oneself up taking out your enemies, and we all saw how people in the street rejoiced during 9/11 in Islam countries, but for the teachings of the church martyrdom is something from which the innocence of our behavior speaks more against our agressors. Luke 23.41 states by the thief on the cross that "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." What are you willing to be martyred for, or are you like an Athiestic Traditor? Able to deny athiesm where your life depended on conformity. Would you say to an athiest going into a country known for human rights violations against athiests as courageous or stu-pid?

[GiGi]

Yeah, Lewis famously said that Christianity is "a myth that is also a fact".
Lots of people believe that. I just don't know why.

[GiGi]

Yes, I admit it is all myth, but Christianity is the myth that became real. The creative use of the imagination of man is what inspires progress. The capacity for you to see things as unethical seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. The motifs of the dying god in myth teach us a story of the importance of sacrifice, it is viewed by many as being profound and teaching a great truth, but when faced with Christianity the same motif is violently rejected, it has somehow lost its profound meaning simply because its wisdom is considered foolish, and yet the passive religion suffered greatly against all odds and became a preferred religion during Constantine. It would be amazing if Islam would allow Christianity to be taught, for its idea of martyrdom is to blow oneself up taking out your enemies, and we all saw how people in the street rejoiced during 9/11 in Islam countries, but for the teachings of the church martyrdom is something from which the innocence of our behavior speaks more against our agressors. Luke 23.41 states by the thief on the cross that "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." What are you willing to be martyred for, or are you like an Athiestic Traditor? Able to deny athiesm where your life depended on conformity. Would you say to an athiest going into a country known for human rights violations against athiests as courageous or stu-pid?
Before I go off-line for a few days, I want to tell you that I agree with almost everything you've said these past couple of days.
Would I be willing to deny Atheism if my life depended on conformity? You're darn tootin', I would!!!
Atheism has been subject to persecution and even prosecution. Even now, in the US, Atheists are feared, shunned, suffer the loss of friends, family ties, even their jobs depend on feigning belief in some places.

[asdf]

Lots of people believe that. I just don't know why.

It's a complicated question, to be sure. I'm not sure what drove Lewis to that conclusion. Perhaps it's connected some of the Modernist/Foundationalist stuff that he wrote in Mere Christianity.

As for me, I am neither comfortable with saying it is "just" a myth, nor with using the language of "fact". The mythology aspect is far more important to me, personally, than the "literal", "factual", "historical" arguments.

Here's a couple quotes that stick with me. I'm not sure at the moment how to connect them into what I'm trying to say.

"Before God and with God we live without God."
-Dietrich Bonhoeffer

"God rid me of God."
-Meister Eckhart

[GiGi]

It's a complicated question, to be sure. I'm not sure what drove Lewis to that conclusion. Perhaps it's connected some of the Modernist/Foundationalist stuff that he wrote in Mere Christianity.

As for me, I am neither comfortable with saying it is "just" a myth, nor with using the language of "fact". The mythology aspect is far more important to me, personally, than the "literal", "factual", "historical" arguments.

Here's a couple quotes that stick with me. I'm not sure at the moment how to connect them into what I'm trying to say.

"Before God and with God we live without God."
-Dietrich Bonhoeffer

"God rid me of God."
-Meister Eckhart
These myths are part of a wonderful, complicated mixture of ingredients that combine over generations. It makes sense to think of god as the embodiment of a philosophy. After that things start getting ugly.
I start having trouble with it right out the gate with the 1st commandment. Its the same arguement I have with all 3 Abrahamic religions, because it dismisses other believers as unworthy or worse, worthy of punishment.

[asdf]

These myths are part of a wonderful, complicated mixture of ingredients that combine over generations. It makes sense to think of god as the embodiment of a philosophy. After that things start getting ugly.
I start having trouble with it right out the gate with the 1st commandment. Its the same arguement I have with all 3 Abrahamic religions, because it dismisses other believers as unworthy or worse, worthy of punishment.

Yeah, I understand. I have some of the same philosophical issues with naive, exclusivist versions of any faith. It seems to clearly violate a conception of the deity as fundamentally good, and desiring the well-being of [his] subjects.

[GiGi]

Yeah, I understand. I have some of the same philosophical issues with naive, exclusivist versions of any faith. It seems to clearly violate a conception of the deity as fundamentally good, and desiring the well-being of [his] subjects.
I think its the language of religion. We understand the intent behind the stories. Good ultimately wins over evil. The sacrifice of one to save others. The need to temper judgement with empathy, and so on.
Now that the world is smaller, "love your neighbor" must take on new meaning. Our neighbors are not just kin. Our neighbors number in the billions.
The legends from people of other nations are just as important.
Its easy to say that other gods are not real, but when we do that we are actually dismissing as insignificant the philosophies that mean as much to them as ours do to us.
I'd like to hear more christians say that they embrace the meanings, and intent behind this religious philosophy, and I'd like enough of them to say it that the literalists are squeezed out. Fundamentalists are the fastest growing christian group in the US. That's kind of scary.

[asdf]

I think its the language of religion. We understand the intent behind the stories. Good ultimately wins over evil. The sacrifice of one to save others. The need to temper judgement with empathy, and so on.

Yes, very much so. When I was more, er, observant**, my experience with religion was for the most part very positive. I learned a lot, and grew in character, empathy, compassion, etc. In fact, I'd probably say that the seriousness with which I took it was the very thing that led me to where I am today (wherever that is). "God rid me of God", as I quoted above.

**For my first ~25 years of life, I went to church at least twice a week, often more. I went to a private Christian elementary through junior high school, public HS, and a four-year Bible college. I have a B.A. in Biblical studies, and fully intended upon graduating college to spend my life in "ministry". (Though I never really had a good grip on what that would look like. I didn't exactly want to do traditional, paid, vocational ministry. A story for another time, I suppose...


Now that the world is smaller, "love your neighbor" must take on new meaning. Our neighbors are not just kin. Our neighbors number in the billions. Yes, absolutely! I think that at its best Christianity contains within it the seeds for such an understanding. Radical self-sacrifice, embrace of "the other", care for the poor, non-violent resistance, opposition to tyranny and empire...these things I still carry with me.


The legends from people of other nations are just as important.

Its easy to say that other gods are not real, but when we do that we are actually dismissing as insignificant the philosophies that mean as much to them as ours do to us.

I'd like to hear more christians say that they embrace the meanings, and intent behind this religious philosophy, and I'd like enough of them to say it that the literalists are squeezed out. Fundamentalists are the fastest growing christian group in the US. That's kind of scary.I agree. It's disheartening that those who ostensibly follow and represent Jesus of Nazareth—the "savior of the world", the "prince of peace", "the Messiah, the son of the living God"—have earned the reputation—not of peacemaking, not of loving their enemies, not of blessing those who curse them, praying for those who persecute them, not of rejecting power and embracing voluntary servitude to the least of these—but of being power-hungry, hypocritical, bigoted, close-minded, boastfully iġnorant, anti-science, warmongering, misogynistic...

[sunofmysoul]

Yes, very much so. When I was more, er, observant**, my experience with religion was for the most part very positive. I learned a lot, and grew in character, empathy, compassion, etc. In fact, I'd probably say that the seriousness with which I took it was the very thing that led me to where I am today (wherever that is). "God rid me of God", as I quoted above.

**For my first ~25 years of life, I went to church at least twice a week, often more. I went to a private Christian elementary through junior high school, public HS, and a four-year Bible college. I have a B.A. in Biblical studies, and fully intended upon graduating college to spend my life in "ministry". (Though I never really had a good grip on what that would look like. I didn't exactly want to do traditional, paid, vocational ministry. A story for another time, I suppose...



Yes, absolutely! I think that at its best Christianity contains within it the seeds for such an understanding. Radical self-sacrifice, embrace of "the other", care for the poor, non-violent resistance, opposition to tyranny and empire...these things I still carry with me.



I agree. It's disheartening that those who ostensibly follow and represent Jesus of Nazareth—the "savior of the world", the "prince of peace", "the Messiah, the son of the living God"—have earned the reputation—not of peacemaking, not of loving their enemies, not of blessing those who curse them, praying for those who persecute them, not of rejecting power and embracing voluntary servitude to the least of these—but of being power-hungry, hypocritical, bigoted, close-minded, boastfully ********, anti-science, warmongering, misogynistic...
must spread it round...:)
(STILL wondering how far it must be spread...:eek::D:cool:)

[Columcille]

I agree. It's disheartening that those who ostensibly follow and represent Jesus of Nazareth—the "savior of the world", the "prince of peace", "the Messiah, the son of the living God"—have earned the reputation—not of peacemaking, not of loving their enemies, not of blessing those who curse them, praying for those who persecute them, not of rejecting power and embracing voluntary servitude to the least of these—but of being power-hungry, hypocritical, bigoted, close-minded, boastfully iġnorant, anti-science, warmongering, misogynistic...

Well, I was thinking to get back on track and have the OP author try and demonstrate where Christians actually lie, which if he presents it right, I might agree or I might not not. I think he should be checking into people like Benny Henn and other top TBN mass evangelists. As such, it seems that the Trig would agree with your idea about the above in terms of characterizing Christians on a general playing field. Hence, you should fall in this catagory with everyone else because of the label "Christian." It is in my eyes not much different than John McCain being the media's favorite Rupublican due to his centerist views and then being thrown under the bus when it actually comes to an unknown candidate with little experience and project him into the White House unchallenged. Christ was hated not only by the religious of his day, he was also hated by the world. Hence their are a few things I want to comment about the above quote.

1) Firstly, on the nature of Christ. I am sure you are in agreement that he is fully God and fully Man and in Trinity sharing equally with the Father and the Holy Spirit the Godhead. This is what uniquely places him as the savior of the world, the prince of peace, and the Messiah, the annointed one of God as both king and priest. Hence, the work on the Cross is not primary one of example, but of his atoning sacrifice to redeem us to God the Father. And yes, we are called to deny ourselves and to follow Christ's example, but the Lord knows that we will fall from time to time. As such, we can be forgiven. I point this out not that you might disagree with it, but that the transition you make with it into my second point only has some sort of at***ude that highlights living like little Christs--as thought his purpose of his dying on the cross was one of salvation by example.

2) Secondly, you lead this point up only to tear down. Now you have become that which you dislike in the conservative Christians. The power hungry can be visibly seen in both liberal and conservative parishes, most noticibly to me is the grab for power in the Episcopal Church USA and causing the crisis, which thank God it has because now a half million of the Traditional Anglican Communion is about to be in full communion with the Catholic Church. A bad thing actually becoming a good thing. One the things I learned though is that the Church is that it is not a political power, it is fluid even with an ecclesiastical structure to permiate any culture in any time period regards of politics of the host nation. People are not mindless pawns, they volunteerily either stay with a church or move elsewhere. The power hungry in the ECUSA caused me to leave them and look for greener pastures in the Southern Baptist for a time and then in the Catholic Church. Of being hypocritical, I sometimes don't do what I want to do, so I recognize the sinfulness within myself as Psalms 51 teaches. What do you expect with Christians, perfection? Bigoted--–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
Absolutely! However, intolerant only with the creed, belief, or opinion attempting to invade and change the one that makes us Christian by definition. I am against the Jesus Seminar that stripes Christ's divinity, I am against same-sex marriages that the sacrament of marriage does not allow, I am against abortion since Christ was conceived by the virgin Mary, and on to other heresies that attempt to subvert the Gospel and be lifted up on equal or greater footing to its message.
Closed-minded, I'll take that ***le as a badge of honor. To many PC police and tolerant secularists that their idea of a Gospel message is watered down and indefiniable.
Science is science, religion is religion. Science can support religion, but religion cannot support science. The role of religion is to make sense of the world, to give it meaning. Science's function is to understand the normal observations and reaction of the world. Theory should never be taught as fact, at that moment science moves into religion.
Warmongering... I am a soldier. I am against the Islam extremists that rammed two airplanes into the twin towers and one into the Pentagon. I see the right of nation's soveriegn to protect themselves and their citizens from harm and as such use their military in an offensive manner to take the fight to the instigators. But this is not my problem as a soldier, this is one designated by Congress. The Muslim that just killed 13 soldiers in Fort Hood, that major, apparently forgot that it is not the soldier's that are making the war, but our civilian leaders to whom we are subject. I do not like war, but I do see its necessity when the cause is just. Besides, I am just trying to make ends meet for my family, and being a soldier is a job to do such. As far as misogynistic, I believe that men and women have a different physiological function. As such, I love women. The greatest of all saints in the Church, greater than St. Francis of Assisi, greater than St. Augustine, and all the male saints combined is the Theotokos. So exactly what kind of hatred is there toward women in the Church? Not being allowed into the priesthood, Jesus picked twelve apostles, all men--does that make him a woman hater?
I know, we are an exclusive club. One such example of our club is to take the following oath:

Stymie: I... Stymie... Member in good standing of the He-Man Woman Haters Club... Do solemnly swear to be a he-man and hate women and not play with them or talk to them unless I have to. And especially: never fall in love, and if I do may I die slowly and painfully and suffer for hours - or until I scream bloody murder.

[asdf]

2) Secondly, you lead this point up only to tear down.

Not at all. There are many things that I'd like to "build up" in the body of those who follow the way of Jesus. I cited some of them in the very same post you criticized:
Radical self-sacrifice, embrace of "the other", care for the poor, non-violent resistance, opposition to tyranny and empire...
The power hungry can be visibly seen in both liberal and conservative parishesQuite so. That which I decry is not by any means limited to a particular political or theological standpoint.


Science's function is to understand the normal observations and reaction of the world. Theory should never be taught as fact, at that moment science moves into religion.I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about, but if it's evolution by natural selection that you regard as a "theory [that] should never be taught as fact", you should know that evolution is as much a fact as the theory of gravity, the theory of relativity, and the germ theory of disease


Warmongering... I am a soldier. I am against the Islam extremists that rammed two airplanes into the twin towers and one into the Pentagon. ...And which was used as pretext to launch a war of aggression against a nation which had nothing to do with the attacks.


I see the right of nation's soveriegn to protect themselves and their citizens from harm and as such use their military in an offensive manner to take the fight to the instigators.I'm not against Just War Theory, but when it's twisted and bastardized into support for "preventative" war, we've moved far away from Augustine.


But this is not my problem as a soldier, this is one designated by Congress.

I'm not talking about an individual soldier's support, I'm talking about the church. Why would conservative Christians voice such strong support for the war with Iraq. (Credit where it's due to good old JPII and the Catholic Church for its opposition.)


The Muslim that just killed 13 soldiers in Fort Hood, that major, apparently forgot that it is not the soldier's that are making the war, but our civilian leaders to whom we are subject.

That's true, and a good observation.


I do not like war, but I do see its necessity when the cause is just.

I'm moving closer and closer to pacifism, personally, but I can go along with that. It's Christians' failure to speak out when the cause is clearly not just that concerns me.


Jesus picked twelve apostles, all men--does that make him a woman hater?

Jesus' twelve apostles were all Jews, too. You going to exclude the priesthood from Gentiles?


I know, we are an exclusive club. One such example of our club is to take the following oath:

Stymie: I... Stymie... Member in good standing of the He-Man Woman Haters Club... Do solemnly swear to be a he-man and hate women and not play with them or talk to them unless I have to. And especially: never fall in love, and if I do may I die slowly and painfully and suffer for hours - or until I scream bloody murder.

:p Very nice.

[Columcille]

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about, but if it's evolution by natural selection that you regard as a "theory [that] should never be taught as fact", you should know that evolution is as much a fact as the theory of gravity, the theory of relativity, and the germ theory of disease

Jesus' twelve apostles were all Jews, too. You going to exclude the priesthood from Gentiles?.

I went off topic from the OP. I still want to see Trig do some presenting. I just think, asdf, that you should not be so quick to align yourself with an antigonist that would soon stab your belief system in the back because you claim yourself to be a Christian. I stand by my Church. You must stand on your reasons.

[asdf]

I went off topic from the OP. I still want to see Trig do some presenting. I just think, asdf, that you should not be so quick to align yourself with an antigonist that would soon stab your belief system in the back because you claim yourself to be a Christian.

The church has her fair share of sins to atone for, and if we go automatically into "defend" mode, it will prevent the truth from having a fair hearing. Things that stand in the way of shalom, of "the ministry of reconciliation", of peace-making, etc., are not just a P.R. issue to defend or obfuscate or explain away - they stand in the way of God's will being done "on earth as it is in heaven". They are an***hetical to the kingdom of God.


I stand by my Church. You must stand on your reasons.I stand by the Truth. If "my Church" acts in opposition to "righteousness, shalom, and joy", I have no moral qualms with opposing "my Church" itself - in fact I consider it my duty, as a follower of the crucified and risen one.

EDITED TO ADD: Is this not, by the way, what you desire of Muslims? To distance themselves and explicitly reject the extremist and faith-denying rhetoric and actions of the few?

[Columcille]

The church has her fair share of sins to atone for, and if we go automatically into "defend" mode, it will prevent the truth from having a fair hearing. Things that stand in the way of shalom, of "the ministry of reconciliation", of peace-making, etc., are not just a P.R. issue to defend or obfuscate or explain away - they stand in the way of God's will being done "on earth as it is in heaven". They are an***hetical to the kingdom of God.

I stand by the Truth. If "my Church" acts in opposition to "righteousness, shalom, and joy", I have no moral qualms with opposing "my Church" itself - in fact I consider it my duty, as a follower of the crucified and risen one.

EDITED TO ADD: Is this not, by the way, what you desire of Muslims? To distance themselves and explicitly reject the extremist and faith-denying rhetoric and actions of the few?

What I desire, and what is, is not always compatible. I align myself with the Church, because she is apostolic and catholic. Jesus was crucified, and he is risen, but he is also coming back to judge the world. His judgement is just. As such, I am not a selective Christian that can go to a buffet line and pick and choose what I like most about Christianity and reject those things I dislike about Christianity. What Truth you believe is partial, because it rests on the shoulders of a disconnected Protestant rationalism. Its inclination is continue to further split from itself at every disagreement of which a majority rule in a sea of minorities (denominations). I bet you could start your own independent church on your ideas of "Truth." but not be able to rally the rest of the denominations to your side because of the same rubric existing in Protestantism.

[asdf]

What I desire, and what is, is not always compatible. I align myself with the Church, because she is apostolic and catholic. Jesus was crucified, and he is risen, but he is also coming back to judge the world. His judgement is just. As such, I am not a selective Christian that can go to a buffet line and pick and choose what I like most about Christianity and reject those things I dislike about Christianity. What Truth you believe is partial, because it rests on the shoulders of a disconnected Protestant rationalism. Its inclination is continue to further split from itself at every disagreement of which a majority rule in a sea of minorities (denominations). I bet you could start your own independent church on your ideas of "Truth." but not be able to rally the rest of the denominations to your side because of the same rubric existing in Protestantism.

Here may be a legitimate point of disagreement. I would rather have a million different sects or denominations seeking truth, seeking to "do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before God", than to have One True Apostolic and catholic Church that is authoritarian, cannot be questioned, and must be "stood by" or defended in the face of atrocities at the highest levels.

[Columcille]

Here may be a legitimate point of disagreement. I would rather have a million different sects or denominations seeking truth, seeking to "do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly before God", than to have One True Apostolic and catholic Church that is authoritarian, cannot be questioned, and must be "stood by" or defended in the face of atrocities at the highest levels.

However, it is questioned, but Truth is a rock, not a reed shaken in the wind. Christ is the cornerstone. When it is questioned, the authority that Christ gave the apostles remains. You just stated in your own quote seeking truth, but why are you seeking if you just said earlier that you have it, do you have it in degrees or partiality? If it is apparent, there should not be any need for seeking truth, every Protestant should be on the same page, but they are not. I will be taking a new approach, I have much to learn in regards to Orthodox spirituality, but nonetheless it is a spirituality that has affected St. Benedict's rule, St. Francis of Assisi's rule, and found in the diversity of Catholic spirituality, one that does indeed show mercy, and is presently pressing on me as I grow in learning such spirituality and eventually in practicing it.

[asdf]

However, it is questioned, but Truth is a rock, not a reed shaken in the wind. Christ is the cornerstone. When it is questioned, the authority that Christ gave the apostles remains.

I believe that, but I do not believe that such authority lies within the purview of a hierarchical, authoritarian power structure. (Particularly not when said power structure acts in opposition to the very principles given and demonstrated by Jesus himself!)


You just stated in your own quote seeking truth, but why are you seeking if you just said earlier that you have it, do you have it in degrees or partiality?

Did I say that I have it? I doubt that I did. I suppose there's a bit of a "now-and-not-yet" function to the attainment of Truth. But no, I'm not so arrogant as to believe that I, personally, have a monopoly on the fullness of truth. I see through a glass, darkly, as do we all - popes, prime ministers, prophets, patriarchs, and peons. (Couldn't resist the alliteration :p)


If it is apparent, there should not be any need for seeking truth, every Protestant should be on the same page, but they are not.

Your conclusion was built on a false premise. I do not believe that all Christians will come to agreement on all theological matters, prior to "the life of the ages".

...the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
-Ephesians 4.12-15
This is a goal - it most certainly isn't a present reality, whether in Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox circles. No, but for now, we move toward that goal thusly:

From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (v.16)


I will be taking a new approach, I have much to learn in regards to Orthodox spirituality, but nonetheless it is a spirituality that has affected St. Benedict's rule, St. Francis of Assisi's rule, and found in the diversity of Catholic spirituality, one that does indeed show mercy, and is presently pressing on me as I grow in learning such spirituality and eventually in practicing it.

Peace and all good to you as you grow and align yourself ever more with truth, mercy and justice.

[Columcille]

I believe that, but I do not believe that such authority lies within the purview of a hierarchical, authoritarian power structure. (Particularly not when said power structure acts in opposition to the very principles given and demonstrated by Jesus himself!)

While Christ is the head, the rest of the Church is made up of human beings able to error. We recognize ourselves as sinners, that is why we need the sacrament of confession. I realize that you don't believe in the authority given to the apostles, you have replaced them with your own ideas and interpretations, not in keeping with the office of bishop. If you hold us up to that standard of demonstration by Jesus himself, nobody could possibly be Christian. Salvation is not by demonstration, but by a continued working process by which Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and by the authority of the Father strives to work within us.

While we see in the mirror darkly, it is the mysteries that we do not understand. Here is where you and I will disagree most on. The progression of liberal theology in our modern age is disconnected to what was in Jude 3 "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." How that homosexual acts have always been held as immoral, how there has never been a homosexual union approved by the Church, and now all of a sudden two thousand years has passed and now you support it? Believe me, there is something quite wrong with your rationalism. One that is causing a lot of problems for the Anglican communion worldwide--which I am thankful for due to their reexamining their Protestant rationalism and ditching it.


Your conclusion was built on a false premise. I do not believe that all Christians will come to agreement on all theological matters, prior to "the life of the ages".

That is why you are not catholic.


[INDENT]...the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
-Ephesians 4.12-15




This is a goal - it most certainly isn't a present reality, whether in Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox circles. No, but for now, we move toward that goal thusly

The passage is clearly intended for the instruction of the saints, the unity always existed as Ephesians 4.1,4-5 discusses. What you have is an inclination for schism, especially in your support of homosexual acts within the Christian church. The reason for the splits is because with the first one, there was distrust among the believers, it is was an alientation that is unnecessary, and still is unnecessary. Catholic and Orthodox have valid sacraments. Protestants, most of them, only have the ability to perform baptism because of the Trinitarian formula. Hence, the goal is between Catholic and Orthodox to repair the aspects of the schism that men in power created because of their greed. The Russian Patriarch is hopeful that a full communion is possible within three months, and the Ecumencal Patriarch and the Pope are working toward this end. I believe what happened in Cyprus this last October is one of those steps that will bring us together. Protestantism could not do that, because nobody has a standard to rally behind, everyone has their own standard. Protestantism is a heresy through and through, but it is not one that is condemnable only misunderstood. As such, the moment you get rid of the rationalism that is dictated and upheld by your own shoulders the better. Religion should not be something you always agree with, it should challenge you; religion should be something with which you can grow into and mature just as the passage you quoted demonstrated.

[asdf]

While Christ is the head, the rest of the Church is made up of human beings able to error. We recognize ourselves as sinners, that is why we need the sacrament of confession. I realize that you don't believe in the authority given to the apostles, you have replaced them with your own ideas and interpretations, not in keeping with the office of bishop. If you hold us up to that standard of demonstration by Jesus himself, nobody could possibly be Christian. Salvation is not by demonstration, but by a continued working process by which Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and by the authority of the Father strives to work within us.

This is the kind of logic that causes scandals to be swept under the rug, whistleblowers punished, history denied or never fully accounted for, the logs in our own eye never removed...


That is why you are not catholic.

I don't buy it. The diversity and disagreement on theological/ecclesiological matters exist in Catholic and Orthodox circles too, whether or not you're willing to admit it.


Hence, the goal is between Catholic and Orthodox to repair the aspects of the schism that men in power created because of their greed. The Russian Patriarch is hopeful that a full communion is possible within three months, and the Ecumencal Patriarch and the Pope are working toward this end. I believe what happened in Cyprus this last October is one of those steps that will bring us together.

We'll see. I have my doubts about such a reconciliation.


As such, the moment you get rid of the rationalism that is dictated and upheld by your own shoulders the better.

I don't disagree (fully). I think rationalism, particularly modernism, foundationalism, have been quite harmful to Western Christianity. The Catholics have not been unaffected by this either.


Religion should not be something you always agree with, it should challenge you; religion should be something with which you can grow into and mature just as the passage you quoted demonstrated.

I agree completely. But the fullness, the maturity, the unity is found in Christ himself - not in any human or human ins***ution.

[Columcille]

This is the kind of logic that causes scandals to be swept under the rug, whistleblowers punished, history denied or never fully accounted for, the logs in our own eye never removed...

The Popes, especially JPII, has made certain admittance to such problems of the past, and there are few supposed scandals that are made up that need no apology due to their lack of evidence in their claims. There are a few on the local level from which I think the Pope is unwelcome to interrupt the legal system. Probably as encrouching as say America to Singapore, which an agreement is made for non-interference. Since most priests do not have a Vatican passport, it is in the individual bishop's authority in dealing with problems. Even if those bishops make bad decisions, it does not affect the validity of the sacraments that they perform as the issue was settled long ago against the Donatists, who were rightly concerned over the traditors, but in which attacked the office.


I don't buy it. The diversity and disagreement on theological/ecclesiological matters exist in Catholic and Orthodox circles too, whether or not you're willing to admit it.

You don't have to buy it, it is not much of your concern anyways.


We'll see. I have my doubts about such a reconciliation.

And when it comes about in our lifetime, should it, I guess it would make no difference to you anyways. Time will tell, I am hopeful at what I hear in the dialogue. And, incidently, by what I gather from my discussions with the laity at the Orthodox Church, although there are a few who would not like it, I have yet to hear from the dissenters that the Catholic sacraments are invalid.


I agree completely. But the fullness, the maturity, the unity is found in Christ himself - not in any human or human ins***ution.

And did not Christ elect 12 apostles from which the Church is founded upon? I guess Christ was wrong, it must go directly from himself to ASDF.

[asdf]

The Popes, especially JPII, has made certain admittance to such problems of the past, and there are few supposed scandals that are made up that need no apology due to their lack of evidence in their claims.There are a few on the local level from which I think the Pope is unwelcome to interrupt the legal system. Probably as encrouching as say America to Singapore, which an agreement is made for non-interference. Since most priests do not have a Vatican passport, it is in the individual bishop's authority in dealing with problems.

What do you have in mind?

My biggest complaints against the Catholic church at present are:


Lies about the efficacy of condoms in preventing the spread of disease, particularly in AIDS-afflicted Africa.
The cover-up of the child abuse scandal(s).

These are not any one individual bishop's decisions - these are systemic problems.


Even if those bishops make bad decisions, it does not affect the validity of the sacraments that they perform as the issue was settled long ago against the Donatists, who were rightly concerned over the traditors, but in which attacked the office. I've got no beef with the validity of the sacraments. Of course every human is fallible, and no amount of sin invalidates the power of truth and righteousness.


You don't have to buy it, it is not much of your concern anyways. That's true, but I find it a disingenuous argument, since varieties and disagreements of interpretation are obviously present.


And when it comes about in our lifetime, should it, I guess it would make no difference to you anyways. I suppose you're right.


Time will tell, I am hopeful at what I hear in the dialogue. And, incidently, by what I gather from my discussions with the laity at the Orthodox Church, although there are a few who would not like it, I have yet to hear from the dissenters that the Catholic sacraments are invalid. Last I heard, when the Ecumenical Patriarch was asked (after a speech at Notre Dame) what it would take for Orthodoxy and Rome to reunite, he replied that Rome would have to repent of its heresies and return to Orthodoxy.


And did not Christ elect 12 apostles from which the Church is founded upon? I guess Christ was wrong, it must go directly from himself to ASDF.Yes. I believe in the "priesthood of all believers".
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
-1 John 2.27

[Columcille]

What do you have in mind?

My biggest complaints against the Catholic church at present are:


Lies about the efficacy of condoms in preventing the spread of disease, particularly in AIDS-afflicted Africa.
The cover-up of the child abuse scandal(s).

These are not any one individual bishop's decisions - these are systemic problems.

I've got no beef with the validity of the sacraments. Of course every human is fallible, and no amount of sin invalidates the power of truth and righteousness.

That's true, but I find it a disingenuous argument, since varieties and disagreements of interpretation are obviously present.

I suppose you're right.

Last I heard, when the Ecumenical Patriarch was asked (after a speech at Notre Dame) what it would take for Orthodoxy and Rome to reunite, he replied that Rome would have to repent of its heresies and return to Orthodoxy.

Yes. I believe in the "priesthood of all believers".
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
-1 John 2.27


It is about as systematic as any other Church, because the Catholic Church is the largest does not truly demonstrate the ratio of which the problem's you suggest happen. Just because the media latches onto one thing in a particular region, do not assume that it is a worldwide epidemic. The ratio is quite lower than you assume. Pope John Paul II did make apologies regarding the Catholic Church's past treatment of say Galileo. As far as accusations yet pending actual any court sentencing, that is to be determined by investigations and there is a problem of circumstantial evidences. Again, if a bishop makes a bad decision, it does not affect the teaching authority nor the validity of the sacraments.

The priesthood of all believers has nothing to do with the fact that the Apostles did establish churches and appointed bishops to oversee them. The priesthood of all believers is also contingent on the fact that simply they are believers in the real Christ, which you seem to assent to, and to his teachings and the teachings of the apostles, which you do not hold with your approval of immoral lifestyles. An gnostic can claim to be a Christian, and in fact there are many gnostic gospels created as the Gospel of Thomas, but these are not Christians. An apostate is someone also not a Christian for their approving of and sometimes openly participating in immoral acts without any regard to repentance. I consider you an apostate from my seperated Protestant brothers because of you endorsement of homosexuality. The fact that you teach it, completely disregarding Scripture and the consistency of which Christendom has historically denied such acts demonstrates that the Spirit does not reside in your belief system as you would love to claim.

As far as your list, you don't like the Catholic position on condoms, big deal. You want to play God in the course of sexuality, be your own god then. It is not my concern, monogamy is the best way to prevent desease and abstinence is the only 100% foolproof way to prevent the spread via sexual transmission. Marriage and celibacy are a calling. If you want to fault St. Paul for being celibate, as though that is the crux of the problem, I guess there is no room in authentic Christianity.

[asdf]

It is about as systematic as any other Church, because the Catholic Church is the largest does not truly demonstrate the ratio of which the problem's you suggest happen. Just because the media latches onto one thing in a particular region, do not assume that it is a worldwide epidemic. The ratio is quite lower than you assume. Pope John Paul II did make apologies regarding the Catholic Church's past treatment of say Galileo. As far as accusations yet pending actual any court sentencing, that is to be determined by investigations and there is a problem of circumstantial evidences. Again, if a bishop makes a bad decision, it does not affect the teaching authority nor the validity of the sacraments.

And again, I'm not talking about an isolated incident or three. There has been a pattern of evil priests being protected from civil law by Church hierarchy, of being sent to new parishes instead of being censured...

The serial sexual predator Father Maciel was protected by JPII and then-cardinal Ratzinger for years.


The priesthood of all believers has nothing to do with the fact that the Apostles did establish churches and appointed bishops to oversee them.

True, and the bishops did not always agree amongst each other. Even Peter and Paul had to have it out on an important doctrinal issue.


The priesthood of all believers is also contingent on the fact that simply they are believers in the real Christ, which you seem to assent to, and to his teachings and the teachings of the apostles, which you do not hold with your approval of immoral lifestyles.

I believe that sexual intimacy is best expressed within the context of a committed, monogamous, mutually consensual, faithful, covenantal relationship. Nothing "immoral" about it at all.


As far as your list, you don't like the Catholic position on condoms, big deal. You want to play God in the course of sexuality, be your own god then. It is not my concern, monogamy is the best way to prevent desease and abstinence is the only 100% foolproof way to prevent the spread via sexual transmission.

The fact of a church actively fighting against something known and proven to combat disease, all for the sake of its theological and "moral" beliefs, is religion at its worst.


Marriage and celibacy are a calling. If you want to fault St. Paul for being celibate, as though that is the crux of the problem, I guess there is no room in authentic Christianity.

Celibacy is a high calling, as is marriage. Both must be chosen, not imposed upon people - let alone upon outsiders to the faith!

[Columcille]

And again, I'm not talking about an isolated incident or three. There has been a pattern of evil priests being protected from civil law by Church hierarchy, of being sent to new parishes instead of being censured...

The serial sexual predator Father Maciel was protected by JPII and then-cardinal Ratzinger for years.

Maciel was removed to live a life of penance. The wikipedia states it. The Vatican has also issued apologies. Maciel is one priest. I have heard of another priest with Memphis that was also accused, and I think also in Chicago that got a lot of press coverage. What is just as criminal in this is the legal system that granted a bond for McGuire. Anyways, you can quote a lot of difference allegations and even convicted priests, and I am sure there are a number of sexual abuses yet unreported. But the Church has 411,252 bishops and priests worldwide as of 2005 according to one online reference. http://www.uspapalvisit.org/backgrounders/caradata.htm
At any rate, Maciel remained in America and died. I am not sure just what kind of "protection" he is able to grant that local authorities could not issue warrants and seek extradition, especially when they know were the alleged offender presently resides. I do not think the Catholic Church bishops were "hiding" them from the legal authorities; however, I have stated again and again, that bad decisions on the part of the bishop does not affect the teaching.


True, and the bishops did not always agree amongst each other. Even Peter and Paul had to have it out on an important doctrinal issue.

Such issue was settled, most expecially settled at the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. Hence, the heterodox position was resolved, just as Donatism was a heterodoxy was also settled in the fourth century. Besides that, Peter would have already known better since he first saw visions regarding eating unclean meat as required by Mosaic law.


I believe that sexual intimacy is best expressed within the context of a committed, monogamous, mutually consensual, faithful, covenantal relationship. Nothing "immoral" about it at all.

There is no covenantal marriage between two same sex individuals in the history of Scripture nor in the Tradition of the Church. There is therefore no consistent interpretation on your part, you are apostate.


The fact of a church actively fighting against something known and proven to combat disease, all for the sake of its theological and "moral" beliefs, is religion at its worst.

Abstinance is proven to combat disease, you have a position that seeks for sexual freedom outside marriage. If two people remain virgins all their life and both marry and do not go outside the marriage covenant, they should have no problems of catching a disease. If there is any problem of contracting a sexual disease by sexual contact, it is most likely going to come from a sexual predator who is not going to use a condom anyways. Chas***y via monogomous marriages and abstinance are teachings of the Church, you are inconsistent because in your support of condoms as a preventative against desease you just stated above in supporting homosexual unions a policy that would prevent disease via monogomy. Anyone seeking sex outside marriage is at risk and risking their spouse.




Celibacy is a high calling, as is marriage. Both must be chosen, not imposed upon people - let alone upon outsiders to the faith!

The secular governments can buy as many condoms as they want. The Church has no authority to outsiders. There is no imposition. If the secular government want to force its citizens to be more responsible by the fear that AIDS and other STDs impose on a population of lascivious people or for whatever principle by which that government so decides is purely part of their secular governance right. The Church has no say since there is no longer any State religion status since Vatican II. The priesthood is also made up of volunteers, and so they are not under any imposition. Besides, even after taking holy orders, there have been a few that left that calling and gave up their celibacy to marry. One such religious that did this was singer John Michael Talbot, who was part of the first order of Franscicans and he married a St. Clare nun and they are now both in the secular order of Franscicans by permission from their bishop.

[Columcille]

Well, I am going to volunteer to leave this post alone. I think it fair to say that Trig will never take up his OP and start presenting. We have since gone off topic, so I guess we will have to carry it in the homosexual side of the forum. Any Christian who knows how to manage a Greek-English lexicon, a Strong's concordance, and other such necessary tools knows that homosexual acts has always been disapproved through the history of Israel's covenant with God to the new covenant of God established by Christ in and through the apostles. If you deny Scripture, you have no solid rock from which to guide.

[asdf]

Maciel was removed to live a life of penance. The wikipedia states it. The Vatican has also issued apologies.

Yes, exactly. After decades of denial and obfuscation, after the Vatican could deny the accusations no more, a vague "apology" was issued, and Maciel removed from active ministry - but he was never defrocked, never fully investigated, never subject to a civil or canonical trial.


Maciel is one priest.

One priest who was on intimate terms with JPII and then-cardinal Ratzinger. Who was defended long past the point of any reasonable doubt by the Legion, as well as by such bigwig apologists as Richard John Neuhaus, Bill Donohue, Mary Ann Glendon, and William Bennett.

He was just one priest, but he's probably the most dramatic example of the breadth of the problem.


I have heard of another priest with Memphis that was also accused, and I think also in Chicago that got a lot of press coverage. What is just as criminal in this is the legal system that granted a bond for McGuire.

I'm not familiar with McGuire. In any case, it's a red herring - the Catholic Church's guilt is not assuaged by pointing to civil injustices that are "just as criminal". If anything, one should expect more from the Visual Representation of Christ on Earth.


Anyways, you can quote a lot of difference allegations and even convicted priests, and I am sure there are a number of sexual abuses yet unreported. But the Church has 411,252 bishops and priests worldwide as of 2005 according to one online reference. http://www.uspapalvisit.org/backgrounders/caradata.htm

Yes, and with at least 11,000 allegations of abuse (according to the John Jay report, 2004), that cons***utes a pretty significant problem - particularly given the actions taken (or not) by the hierarchy once it became aware of the problem.


At any rate, Maciel remained in America and died. I am not sure just what kind of "protection" he is able to grant that local authorities could not issue warrants and seek extradition, especially when they know were the alleged offender presently resides. I do not think the Catholic Church bishops were "hiding" them from the legal authorities; however, I have stated again and again, that bad decisions on the part of the bishop does not affect the teaching.

They attacked and accused journalists of anti-Catholic bias, they smeared victims, they made no inquiry of their own...


Abstinance is proven to combat disease, you have a position that seeks for sexual freedom outside marriage. If two people remain virgins all their life and both marry and do not go outside the marriage covenant, they should have no problems of catching a disease. If there is any problem of contracting a sexual disease by sexual contact, it is most likely going to come from a sexual predator who is not going to use a condom anyways. Chas***y via monogomous marriages and abstinance are teachings of the Church, you are inconsistent because in your support of condoms as a preventative against desease you just stated above in supporting homosexual unions a policy that would prevent disease via monogomy. Anyone seeking sex outside marriage is at risk and risking their spouse.

I do not deny that abstinence and monogamy prevent the spread of STDs - or even that they are the most effective, most foolproof method. But condoms do work, and again I insist that it's religion at its worst to lie about clinical evidence that will save lives.

I am not inconsistent - I said that monogamy and fidelity were the best context for the expression of sexual intimacy. It is what I choose, and it is what I would prescribe to anyone who asked me.

But I'm not going to deny facts, I'm not going to deny reality, by acting as if I could wave a magic wand and prevent everyone from having sex outside of marriage. It's silly.

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin..." (1 John 2.1)

My advice is that you don't have sex outside a committed, faithful, monogamous, lifelong relationship. But if anyone does...use a condom.


The secular governments can buy as many condoms as they want. The Church has no authority to outsiders.

How I wish that were the case.

[asdf]

Here's another: a formal investigation of Dublin’s Catholic Archdiocese concludes (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1126/breaking73.html?via=rel) that there is "no doubt" that child sexual abuse was covered up by Church authorities over four decades.

As Andrew Sullivan said (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/11/lied-without-lying.html),

"If the Catholic church were a secular ins***ution in Ireland and had been found guilty of child abuse to the massive extent the Church has, it would be forced to close. Its top officials would not be issuing statements of apology and regret, but serving sentences in jail. The name of John Paul II would not be a revered mantra; it would be synonymous with the head of an international organization that had to be dragged kicking and screaming to acknowledge its own long-running, ins***utional brutalization of generations of defenseless children."

[archaeologist]

i didn't read every post so if someone else said this, sorry for the duplication.

bart ehrman, of UNC, makes the claim that there are over 400,000 errors in the new testament, yet another scholar, say peter flint, of TWU, will tell you that there are very few 'errors' in the new testament.

it all depends upon one's perspective, a lie may not be a lie but consider so when one only does a surface or superficial examination of what wa said or is simply looking for ammunition to discredit the believer.

that person will not extend the same courtesies to the believer that they would if their friend said the same things. there are many reasons why a believer would be considered telling a lie and not one of them would support the accusation for upon deeper examination , the believer is speaking from knowledge they consider to be truthful and did not lie at all, they were just mis-informed.

it is always easy to accuse, it is difficult to be honest.

[Occam]

I've been collecting examples of Christians lying for the past few months. And I haven't even been looking for them. I never went looking for examples of lying Christians. I was just following the news that interested me, and a lot of lying Christians just happened to be there.

The vast majority of the posts below are examples of Christians lying. A couple are examples of Christians being hypocrites. And one is completely irrelevant and has been stuck in there for the fun of it.

There are fifty-seven links. That doesn't mean there are fifty-six examples. I have occasionally linked to two different takes on the same story.

TRiG.

(links snipped)
This made me laugh.

You posted this on IncitingRiots' profile:

I've decided this place is altogether too nice, so I'm going to spice it up a little. I've started a thread called "Why do Christians tell so many lies?" Might be fun.

TRiG.
So, this is trolling. Funny trolling, but trolling.

Also, http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

[TRiG]

This conversation has moved far away from the original topic, and I no longer feel I have much to add to it.


Also, http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

Accurate, for what it's worth, but my overall sample is larger than the sample I've posted. In fact, I've come to the belief that almost any "religious leader" with a high public profile is a liar.

I could be wrong. I doubt it.

TRiG.:)