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James Banta
10-04-2013, 08:25 AM
The number one reason is BECAUSE IT HAS CHANGED GOD FROM WHAT HE IS REVEALED TO BE AND MADE INTO THE LIKENESS OF A MAN. The second reason is because they deny the singularity of God an opting for a teaching that billion of billions of Gods exist in the cosmos and that three exist for this world.. That is a denial of the Bible that teaching that God must have be lying when he said "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.". Time and again the LDS deny that the Words of God are truth. Jesus said that His words would never p*** away and yet if they are corrupted then the word we have is worthless.. Remember Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God (John 1:1).. But that is only if the Bible is God's truth.. The requires faith in Jesus and that faith is the only hope we have to access the grace of God unto salvation.. IHS jim

Sir
10-04-2013, 09:31 AM
The number one reason is BECAUSE IT HAS CHANGED GOD FROM WHAT HE IS REVEALED TO BE AND MADE INTO THE LIKENESS OF A MAN.

Actually, the Bible teaches us that man was made in the likeness of God, which the LDS believe.


The second reason is because they deny the singularity of God an opting for a teaching that billion of billions of Gods exist in the cosmos and that three exist for this world..

Actually, YOU deny the "singularity" of God because God is not singular but plural (3).

Secondly, LDS do not teach a doctrine of "billions of billions of Gods", so once again the anti-LDS resort to deceit and purposefully spreading misleading info.

theway
10-04-2013, 01:27 PM
The number one reason is BECAUSE IT HAS CHANGED GOD FROM WHAT HE IS REVEALED TO BE AND MADE INTO THE LIKENESS OF A MAN.We did not make God into our likeness, it was God who made man in His likeness, and then commanded us to change our nature to be Godlike, I.e. Christlike.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..

Why do you find Gods image, nature and likeness to be so disgusting to you?


The second reason is because they deny the singularity of God an opting for a teaching that billion of billions of Gods exist in the cosmos and that three exist for this world.. That is a denial of the Bible that teaching that God must have be lying when he said "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.". Time and again the LDS deny that the Words of God are truth. Jesus said that His words would never p*** away and yet if they are corrupted then the word we have is worthless.. Remember Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God (John 1:1).. But that is only if the Bible is God's truth.. The requires faith in Jesus and that faith is the only hope we have to access the grace of God unto salvation.. IHS jim
I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you need to explain?

RealFakeHair
10-04-2013, 01:31 PM
We did not make God into our likeness, it was God who made man in His likeness, and then commanded us to change our nature to be Godlike, I.e. Christlike.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..

Why do you find Gods image, nature and likeness to be so discussing to you?


I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you need to explain?

If God made man in his likeness as in the way the LDS inc. Say man was; (in human form) then what image was woman created in?

theway
10-04-2013, 05:27 PM
If God made man in his likeness as in the way the LDS inc. Say man was; (in human form) then what image was woman created in?I'm sorry, I'm going by what the Bible says, I don't even know how the LDS defines likeness.

But then, neither you or James described what being One means, or what "likeness" means.

Billyray
10-04-2013, 05:34 PM
I'm sorry, I'm going by what the Bible says. . .

Genesis 1"26 Then God said, ďLet us make mankind in our image, in our likeness. . ."

Who are "US" in this verse?

MacG
10-04-2013, 05:43 PM
I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him...

Do you believe in exaltation?

theway
10-04-2013, 06:32 PM
Do you believe in exaltation?Of course...

James Banta
10-04-2013, 08:25 PM
[Sir;148080]Actually, the Bible teaches us that man was made in the likeness of God, which the LDS believe.

Since we are taught in the New Testament That Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God, and Jesus would have been a mere preexistant spirit at the time of the creation, the whole concept of being created in the physical likeness of God is impossible.. UNLESS you have decided to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you will believe and which parts you will reject.. Because of the Biblical descriptions of God it is far more likely that we are like Him in other ways.. Since there in one God (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:28, Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:8). And that the Father is God (John 20:17). That Jesus is God (John 1:1). And that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) These three Divine Person must be that one true God.. They are Triune, we are triune. We are Body, Mind, and Spirit.. Of any one of those elements are missing we die.. We are therefore created in His image.. TRIUNE.. The LDS church denies that but their interpretation doesn't fit into the whole of the Biblical context..


Actually, YOU deny the "singularity" of God because God is not singular but plural (3).

WHAT? I who believe the Bible as it teaches that the Lord our God is one LORD, deny that singularity because I deny plurality? Thank you for making that so clear (NOT)..


Secondly, LDS do not teach a doctrine of "billions of billions of Gods", so once again the anti-LDS resort to deceit and purposefully spreading misleading info.

You deny the prophetic authority of your own Leaders.. It was taught, and agreed to by the membership of the LDS church, in conference that:

If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds" (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345).

So there it is right out of your own church owned information.. A prophet of the LDS Church taught that there are more Gods in existence than can be numbered.. With a doctrine of exaltation (Godhood) for all it's worthy members what else could there be but Billions on Billions of Gods? But the God of the Bible tells us that He is unaware of any of these other Gods.. But you know more than that simpleton God of the Bible, don't you? IHS jim

James Banta
10-04-2013, 08:43 PM
We did not make God into our likeness, it was God who made man in His likeness, and then commanded us to change our nature to be Godlike, I.e. Christlike.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:..

Why do you find Gods image, nature and likeness to be so disgusting to you?


I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you need to explain?

Since we are taught in the New Testament That Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE God, and Jesus would have been a mere preexistant spirit at the time of the creation, the whole concept of being created in the physical likeness of God is impossible.. UNLESS you have decided to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you will believe and which parts you will reject.. Because of the Biblical descriptions of God it is far more likely that we are like Him in other ways.. Since there in one God (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:28, Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:8). And that the Father is God (John 20:17). That Jesus is God (John 1:1). And that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4) These three Divine Person must be that one true God.. They are Triune, we are triune. We are Body, Mind, and Spirit.. Of any one of those elements are missing we die.. We are therefore created in His image.. TRIUNE.. The LDS church denies that but their interpretation doesn't fit into the whole of the Biblical context.. So why is it you can't just believe the Bible when it comes to the nature of God.. We can't be on him physical image. WE AREN'T INVISIBLE (Colossians 1:15)..

What am I talking about? I am talking about the fact the Joseph Smith taught that there are three Gods for this world.. You seem to be calling Smith a liar.. That isn't a bad thing I agree with you but Smith taught that we have three Gods, that anyway they are plural. That is a terrible unbiblical lie that would steer the hearts of men away from the one true God..


I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three const itute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it! (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473)

If you are going to point out my weaknesses in knowing what Smith taught about God do it.. But to call me wrong without acknowledging your our prophets teaching is just plain deceitful.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-04-2013, 08:55 PM
Of course...

Then you believe in an endless chain of Gods extending back into eternity past.. One the Father in heaven of the one following.. As it is your hope to become a Father in Heaven to a new generation of spirit children.. You would therefore make it your glory to bring them to immortality and ETERNAL LIFE.. A generation of Gods that will follow you.. In short a quick example of why there are Billions on Billions of Gods in existence.. Exaltation is therefore a erred doctrine that denies the Godhood that the God of the Bible has taken just for Himself.. IHS jim

Billyray
10-04-2013, 11:27 PM
I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him,
So by your answer you don't believe that Jesus is God.

RealFakeHair
10-05-2013, 08:04 AM
I'm sorry, I'm going by what the Bible says, I don't even know how the LDS defines likeness.

But then, neither you or James described what being One means, or what "likeness" means.

Well, let me help you out here. First, we can agree man is different than any other creature on earth. Second, earth is man's domain, he rules in a earthly way. Thrid, man has an eternal soul, and forth the Georgia Bull dawgs rules college football. Fifth, if we are made in the image of the mormon god, then what has kept mankind from busting out into full power of the universe Iron Man like Super man? Sixth, as far as we know, man is the same today as he was when he was first created?

MacG
10-05-2013, 04:09 PM
Well, let me help you out here. First, we can agree man is different than any other creature on earth. Second, earth is man's domain, he rules in a earthly way. Thrid, man has an eternal soul, and forth the Georgia Bull dawgs rules college football. Fifth, if we are made in the image of the mormon god, then what has kept mankind from busting out into full power of the universe Iron Man like Super man? Sixth, as far as we know, man is the same today as he was when he was first created?

forth the Georgia Bull dawgs rules college football.

"Can you say A.D.D? I knew you could."

Squirrel!

nrajeffreturns
10-05-2013, 09:48 PM
... forth the Georgia Bull dawgs rules college football.


Sorry, I was doing pretty good in agreeing with you on the other items, but this one I can't go along with.

Does that mean I am going to hell?

MacG
10-06-2013, 09:57 AM
Of course...

Earlier you said "I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him". Then How do you reconcile Jesus being God and His Father Being God?

nrajeffreturns
10-06-2013, 12:56 PM
Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

Stephen claimed he saw a deity standing beside God--standing on the right side of Him, I believe he said.

That deity's name is Jesus Christ, God's Son and a deity every bit as much as His Father is.

MacG
10-06-2013, 10:21 PM
Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

Stephen claimed he saw a deity standing beside God--standing on the right side of Him, I believe he said.

That deity's name is Jesus Christ, God's Son and a deity every bit as much as His Father is.

Not asking Moses but I am asking theway about
I believe there is One God and there is no God beside Him, and another becoming a God. I mean if not beside God where will that one be?

James Banta
10-07-2013, 07:56 AM
Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

Stephen claimed he saw a deity standing beside God--standing on the right side of Him, I believe he said.

That deity's name is Jesus Christ, God's Son and a deity every bit as much as His Father is.

Things changed? You mean God changed and no more does He hold that after Him will no God be formed.. It suddenly became His divine will to make other Gods? When did He decide to make this change? Was it before the world was formed? After all doesn't the Bible teach us that Jesus made all things visible and invisible? Isn't Jesus the Word that was with God in the beginning, the Word that was God? So when again was Jesus made God? How is it that Jesus could be God before the Lord God said that He would never form another God, not even for this world? You are not making any sense at all in this doctrine that "THINGS SEEN TO HAVE CHANGED".. Remember God has also promised us that He will not change (Mal 3:6). Who is it we should believe you telling us that "THINGS SEEN TO HAVE CHANGED" or God saying that "I am the LORD, I change not".. I for one believe the Lord over you.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
10-07-2013, 11:02 AM
Things changed?

Yup. Why do you deny the scriptures by claiming otherwise?

When one deity says to another deity "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" then it seems obvious that things will change, as soon as the one deity makes the other's enemies his footstool.

RealFakeHair
10-07-2013, 11:41 AM
Sorry, I was doing pretty good in agreeing with you on the other items, but this one I can't go along with.

Does that mean I am going to hell?

Yes! Repent while you can.

Billyray
10-07-2013, 01:02 PM
Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

So you believe that in the OT the only God was Jesus? God the Father was not a God in the OT?

In Genesis 1 where it says "Let US make man in our image", who are the "US" in this verse?

nrajeffreturns
10-07-2013, 02:35 PM
So you believe that in the OT the only God was Jesus?
Wrong. I believe there is a OT verse that quotes one deity telling another to sit beside Him until a specific event occurs. The implication is that things will change when the event occurs.


God the Father was not a God in the OT?
Of course He was a God. He was also beside another God--Yahweh.


In Genesis 1 where it says "Let US make man in our image", who are the "US" in this verse?
The evidence suggests that the two deities were El and YHVH.

Billyray
10-07-2013, 02:52 PM
Wrong. I believe there is a OT verse that quotes one deity telling another to sit beside Him until a specific event occurs. The implication is that things will chance when the event occurs.


Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

Your two statement conflict. Can you explain that?

Billyray
10-07-2013, 02:54 PM
The evidence suggests that the two deities were El and YHVH.
So you believe that the "US" in Genesis 1 are the Father and Jesus. Right?

nrajeffreturns
10-07-2013, 03:14 PM
Your two statement conflict. Can you explain that?

Yes. Yes, I can explain that. Stephen's vision plays a part in it.

James Banta
10-07-2013, 05:00 PM
Yup. Why do you deny the scriptures by claiming otherwise?

When one deity says to another deity "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool" then it seems obvious that things will change, as soon as the one deity makes the other's enemies his footstool.

Jeff, Christians DON'T DENY that there are more than one person who is God. We have always said that God is the Father, Son., and Holy Spirit.. How often have I explained that to you. You still insist that the Father is a God that the Son is a God, and that the Holy Spirit is a God.. God says that He is one Lord.. So The Father, one person, the Son, a second person, and the Holy Spirit, a third person, are one God.. They are eternally God, One was not formed by the other.. Yes the Father has a place for the Son, at His right hand. He will put down all His enemies. That in No way contradicts the statements of God as give to us By the Holy Spirit through the prophets that the Lord our God is One Lord, That no God was formed after one was already God. That God is s t u p i d and doesn't know about some other true God's existence.. All it means is the Father has a place for the Son and will put down His enemies.. Just what has changed in your mind? The location from which Jesus will rule? IHS jim

Billyray
10-07-2013, 05:28 PM
Yes. Yes, I can explain that. Stephen's vision plays a part in it.
Here are you two prior statements.

Wrong. I believe there is a OT verse that quotes one deity telling another to sit beside Him until a specific event occurs. The implication is that things will chance when the event occurs.


Maybe in Moses' time there was no God beside Yahweh, but from NT times onward, things seem to have changed:

Can you explain what you meant?

nrajeffreturns
10-07-2013, 11:25 PM
Jeff, Christians DON'T DENY that there are more than one person who is God.
But SOME Christians--the Trinitarian ones--DO deny that the separate persons can sit on thrones next to each other, because Trinitarians believe that all 3 persons are one BEING. Like a human with multiple personality disorder.
In my personal opinion, that doctrine is an abomination in God's sight.


Yes the Father has a place for the Son, at His right hand.
How can that happen if they are both the same being?


All it means is the Father has a place for the Son and will put down His enemies.. Just what has changed in your mind? The location from which Jesus will rule? IHS jim
That is a good point you raised there. If Jesus will reign over this earth after it's been turned into a glorified Paradise, then His Father will be somewhere else, reigning over the places that Jesus won't be reigning over.

Anyway, if one of the persons (Jehovah acc. to the Psalm) told Adonai to sit on His right until Jehovah had made Adonai's enemies His footstool, then once that was done, Adonai was no longer going to be on the right of Jehovah. So in my mind, THAT is what has changed. And indeed, in the NT we see when it happened. Heb 1:13. From that point on, Jesus is on the right hand of His Father. That's what Stephen saw.

nrajeffreturns
10-07-2013, 11:26 PM
Here are you two prior statements.


Can you explain what you meant?


Yes. Yes I can.

Novato
10-08-2013, 01:27 AM
Yes. Yes I can.

Dear Jeff,

Just got back and I see you are the last LDS poster on this board of misguided EV individuals.

Jeff you are liaising with those who have nothing to offer anyone.

Fake Hair whose only purpose is to denigrate the Lordís Church and, even worse, denigrate the Lordís chosen prophet for this dispensation, in the most demeaning manner. Had Fake Hair been around in 1844 Iím pretty sure which mob he would have been a member of.

Then there is poor old James who my heart reaches out to. I pray for him often.

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

This board needs to die just as the Concerned Christians board died when LDS posters abandoned it and the management decided to ban LDS postings. They donít even come up on the first two pages of Search Engine listings anymore.

I know it can be fun, but your involvement lifts the SEO ranking of this board and is a little selfish. It needs to be abandoned by the saints and it will die a quick death.

Fond regards,

Novato

MacG
10-08-2013, 01:44 AM
Heya Novato!

Right here in this thread Sir and theway posted - what are they? Chopped liver? :)
How do you know what is in Jeff's heart?

Billyray
10-08-2013, 03:44 AM
Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

Fond regards,

Novato
Novato if what you say is true then certainly you can defend your position from the Bible. The problem is that rather than trying to do just that you simply resort to personal attacks. Perhaps you should ponder this for a while and try to justify why you do this because it is obvious to any Christian here on this board that if you were truly right you would be able to point us to God's word to support your position.

James Banta
10-08-2013, 08:48 AM
[nrajeffreturns;148166]But SOME Christians--the Trinitarian ones--DO deny that the separate persons can sit on thrones next to each other, because Trinitarians believe that all 3 persons are one BEING. Like a human with multiple personality disorder.
In my personal opinion, that doctrine is an abomination in God's sight.

Trinitarians believe that there are three Persons that are one God.. Three separate and distinct Persons.. These three Person are one Being, they are the same nature, the same essence. One in will, thought, righteousness, sharing the same Being.. One God three Persons.. That is why it's called a Trinitarian meaning three.


Trinity
Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

a group of three; triad.

the state of being threefold or triple. (Dictionary.com)

By that definition the LDS church is Trinitarian.. Do you not hold that there is a "union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead"? According to the dictionary that is a trinitarian belief..


How can that happen if they are both the same being?

It can happen because they are not the same Person.. They are the same God the same Being.. You are thinking of natural beings and not the Divine Being..


That is a good point you raised there. If Jesus will reign over this earth after it's been turned into a glorified Paradise, then His Father will be somewhere else, reigning over the places that Jesus won't be reigning over.

Just where does it say that? IFf we conclude that they are three independent Gods then we have broken the first of the 10 commandments in the Bible -

"You shall have no other gods besides me."Ě (Deut 5:7).

So, it stands to reason that they cannot be independent.

To summarize Jesus says "I and the Father are one"Ě (John 10:38, 17:11,21)

"I am in the Father and the Father is in me"Ě (John 14:11) .

This means Jesus and the Father must be the same God but distinct. Now letís consider what Jesus says about the Holy Spirit:

"I will send the Spirit of truth" for he lives with and will be in you" I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you"Ě. (John 14:17-18, 20)

Now we have to solve this riddle: How can the Father and Son be within each other at once? How can the Son and the Holy Spirit be in me at once? The answer is: Only if they are one and the same yet distinct persons. And it stands to reason as we put together these facts that they are the same God, but different persons. Can I re***ure with the following: it doesnít matter if we canít imagine how this works in our minds! It is perplexing because there is nothing we have seen physically in our lives that can accurately illustrate this mystery. However, it is important to realize it is an eternal truth which the Bible has revealed to us! Itís not man made. There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death (Proverbs 14:12).. Stop worrying about How God can be One Lord and yet three persons and trust that He said that is the way it is and He doesn't lie.. You are trying to examine the divine by human abilities.. All you are doing is breaking the commandment to have no other Gods before YHWH is saying that you believe in three Gods..


Anyway, if one of the persons (Jehovah acc. to the Psalm) told Adonai to sit on His right until Jehovah had made Adonai's enemies His footstool, then once that was done, Adonai was no longer going to be on the right of Jehovah. So in my mind, THAT is what has changed. And indeed, in the NT we see when it happened. Heb 1:13. From that point on, Jesus is on the right hand of His Father. That's what Stephen saw.

Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the invisible God.. Stephen never saw the Father. He saw Jesus and Him on God's right hand. All the Bible must be true or none of it is.. Therefore the Person who Jesus stood by was invisible and only in His glory was He perceived by Stephen.. If that is not so then Paul was NOT an Apostle but a liar as he taught us that :

Col 1:12-15
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

So what part is the truth to you and what part is a lie? Did Stephen see the Father or Did He see Jesus on the right hand of the invisible God? I believe that second because all the scripture in the truth for me not just the parts of it I want to be the truth.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
10-08-2013, 01:24 PM
Dear Jeff,

Just got back and I see you are the last LDS poster on this board of misguided EV individuals.

Jeff you are liaising with those who have nothing to offer anyone.

Fake Hair whose only purpose is to denigrate the Lord’s Church and, even worse, denigrate the Lord’s chosen prophet for this dispensation, in the most demeaning manner. Had Fake Hair been around in 1844 I’m pretty sure which mob he would have been a member of.

Then there is poor old James who my heart reaches out to. I pray for him often.

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

This board needs to die just as the Concerned Christians board died when LDS posters abandoned it and the management decided to ban LDS postings. They don’t even come up on the first two pages of Search Engine listings anymore.

I know it can be fun, but your involvement lifts the SEO ranking of this board and is a little selfish. It needs to be abandoned by the saints and it will die a quick death.

Fond regards,

Novato


I appreciate your concerns and the reasoning behind them. I think you have some good points. In defense of FakeHair, I think the times his posts contain insults he is often less than serious, and sometimes he is self-deprecating. I think he is smart enough to realize when we have a valid point, and his jokes are a way of acknowledging it without actually admitting it.

I am not quite convinced that we should cause this forum to go the way of CC. CC was run and moderated by tyranny, and killed itself. This forum allows fair fights, where the poster with the best argument can win. I think Mac has made some valid points. At least I am unable to refute them all. Another of the biggest things this site has going for it is there is no Brian, Yak, or "Holy Christian Andy" or "This is the wrong forum for that" Theo here.

I find the fair, open debates to be a good thing, and Jill deserves credit for allowing it. When Cram bans me, it's good to have this place to come to and continue defending the church, or just to document Cram's sometimes- unfair moderating.

Of the two sites, I would vote that Cram deserves to be euthanized, not this site.

James Banta
10-09-2013, 08:03 AM
Dear Jeff,

Just got back and I see you are the last LDS poster on this board of misguided EV individuals.

Jeff you are liaising with those who have nothing to offer anyone.

Fake Hair whose only purpose is to denigrate the Lordís Church and, even worse, denigrate the Lordís chosen prophet for this dispensation, in the most demeaning manner. Had Fake Hair been around in 1844 Iím pretty sure which mob he would have been a member of.

Then there is poor old James who my heart reaches out to. I pray for him often.

Then Billy, another lost brother who desperately attacks in the hope of proving to somebody, anybody, especially himself, that his decision might be at least, partially, correct.

This board needs to die just as the Concerned Christians board died when LDS posters abandoned it and the management decided to ban LDS postings. They donít even come up on the first two pages of Search Engine listings anymore.

I know it can be fun, but your involvement lifts the SEO ranking of this board and is a little selfish. It needs to be abandoned by the saints and it will die a quick death.

Fond regards,

Novato

Thank you for your kind personal thoughts for me. I have made it my task to show many of the problems with the LDS church and ask you and other TBMs to explain them. Jeff has been trying to do this through his understanding of the physical world. While his points are valid for humanity they fail short of being mandated on the eternal Being of God. The only way to understand the Union of the Being of God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is through trusting God's word that He is the Lord our God who is one One Lord. Moses received that proclamation from God (Deut 6:4), and while Jesus walked among us in His humanity He confirmed that doctrine (Mark 12:29). God announced His singularity though Isaiah saying that NO GOD WAS FORMED BEFORE HIM, and no God would be formed after Him (Isaiah 43:10-11). He said that He (Who knows all things) doesn't know that any other God exists (Isaiah 44:8)..

The question then must be Is the Father the only true God or were Jesus and the Holy Spirit always there with the Father as God? The Genesis account would have us see that God is not just one Person. In the account given to Moses God explains that nature by addressing Himself as "US" (And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness (Genesis 1:26)).. As I have been reminded by many an LDS here on WM The word God (Elohim) has a plural content in it's meaning.. That plural meaning is fulfilled in the God of the Bible the Self Existent, eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If you see the death of WM, fine that is your perception. No one is forcing you to come here.. You are a free person and can choose to allow this site to die, at least to you.. Those of us who have found a place here to lift our Lord's name, to praise His works on our behalf. To understand His nature as revealed in the Bible. We will keep this site active.. Even if that means we talk only to others who want to conform their faith to the doctrines of the whole of the Bible, we will be here to do so.. You are invited to come read what we teach. You are invited to post your own thoughts on the differing subjects. Or you are invited to leave. Which ever you chose may God continue working on your heart as we pray for you and all those who reject the whole word of God found in the Bible.. I remain IHS jim

theway
10-12-2013, 12:04 PM
.....................

theway
10-12-2013, 12:07 PM
Heya Novato!

Right here in this thread Sir and theway posted - what are they? Chopped liver? :)
How do you know what is in Jeff's heart?
Actually, I mostly agree with Novato, and there are times when I would wish Mormon Posters would just not respond.
Because as we all know, they need us, we do not need them. Without us, this forum would die and the Critics would be forced to go elsewhere. So you know how bored I would have to be to be here posting(plus being banned from the other site again)
But it's for my benefit I am here, as being here sharpens my skills in doing missionary work, LDS Church lessons, and talks.
I mostly take what the Critics say, and rightly ***ume the opposite to be true.

Billyray
10-12-2013, 01:35 PM
Because as we all know, they need us, we do not need them. Without us, this forum would die and the Critics would be forced to go elsewhere.
Without us (Christians), this forum would die and the Cultist (Mormons) would be forced to go elsewhere.

I am not sure why you go on and on about this other than it gives you something to talk about other than trying to defend your false religion.

Pa Pa
10-12-2013, 04:04 PM
Without us (Christians), this forum would die and the Cultist (Mormons) would be forced to go elsewhere.

I am not sure why you go on and on about this other than it gives you something to talk about other than trying to defend your false religion.
Without Mormons responding it would die...look at the numbers it is already dying.

theway
10-12-2013, 04:55 PM
Without Mormons responding it would die...look at the numbers it is already dying.
True... True... Look at the CC forum as the perfect test case.

As soon as there were no more LDS, then the criticizing "Christians" left as well. After that the only thing that could be heard were the virtual crickets.

The site banned Mormons because the LDS were starting to convince people looking in over there that we were correct. Even the owner of the site at that time said that he started to have second thoughts about what he was doing.

Now before Critics here get all "verklempt" and start with they"Nu-uhs" and "taint-sos!", this was the first reason he used before he later deleted it, and instead now claims it was because he only wanted GAs in the church to respond. Of course when all the LDS and Christians alike left, he changed his reason for not allowing the LDS yet again. But now it is nothing more than a lame excuse.

I remember how the Critics were so happy that no Mormons were allowed anymore, for they declaimed that they could now explain Mormonism to those who were questioning Mormonism without the interference from actual Mormons. It turns out that there never was any "questioning Mormons" just "Mormons who asked questions" which they never had the answers to.

What's prophetic was that one of the Critics had his ***essment correct, only in his usual Critic way... (Backwards)
He claimed that the LDS who posted there would soon get so bored with only being able to talk to themselves and not being able to talk to them, that they would give it up entirely.

What's ironic is that the only reason Walter Martin has only lasted as long as it has, is because of the Mormon Posters who came over here from CC, and then followed by the Critics from over there. At that time I remember that this website was on its last heartbeat before then.

Billyray
10-12-2013, 04:58 PM
Without Mormons responding it would die...look at the numbers it is already dying.

And without Christians responding it would die as well. So what is the point exactly?

Billyray
10-12-2013, 05:04 PM
The site banned Mormons because the LDS were starting to convince people looking in over there that we were correct.
No doubt Mormons may CONVINCE some that it is true even though it is a false religion. The same is true of other false religions/movements. But just because you convince some people doesn't make Mormonism true. Some people will be conned in one way or the other.

theway
10-12-2013, 05:20 PM
No doubt Mormons may CONVINCE some that it is true even though it is a false religion. The same is true of other false religions/movements. But just because you convince some people doesn't make Mormonism true. Some people will be conned in one way or the other.
Well... Using your ****ogy, it still makes the reason for AntiMormon websites contradictory.

Because from your point of view, Lurkers were being conned in one way (the LDS way) but not conned in the other way (the Critic Christian way)

Considering also that studies from non LDS have born out that the more Mormons learn about the Bible and the history of their Church, the stronger they become in their faith.

That makes no matter what you guys do as Critics a Lose-lose scenario.

LOL, it seems the only way you can win is if you actually defend the LDS Church and then people get put-off by your example as an LDS.

Pa Pa
10-12-2013, 05:28 PM
And without Christians responding it would die as well. So what is the point exactly?

As well as all sites like this, bent on belittling other faiths. I wish all sites had test to never allow the teachings of John Calvin and his follows...it is an insult to all Christian ideals.

nrajeffreturns
10-12-2013, 09:39 PM
And without Christians responding it would die as well. So what is the point exactly?

That is fallacious. This site, like Carm and CC, was created so that you guys could attack LDS doctrines/leaders/people, and pro-LDS posters were allowed to defend themselves.

So it's not really you guys who are responding--you're the attackers, and any pro-LDS who happen by are the responders--they're responding to the attacks from you guys.

So if anti-LDS quit attacking, then yes, this site would die. Because there would no longer be stuff the pro-LDS need to respond to.

Billyray
10-13-2013, 12:48 AM
So if anti-LDS quit attacking, then yes, this site would die. Because there would no longer be stuff the pro-LDS need to respond to.
If either side went away then this board would die. So again what is the point that you and others are trying to make exactly?

nrajeffreturns
10-14-2013, 08:13 PM
If either side went away then this board would die. So again what is the point that you and others are trying to make exactly?

Maybe it's this: If you attackers would stop attacking, then us defenders would see no more need to defend, and this board would die.

Billyray
10-14-2013, 09:07 PM
Maybe it's this: If you attackers would stop attacking, then us defenders would see no more need to defend, and this board would die.
But you attack Christianity so I could say the same about you AND as I said before if either side dropped out the board would die, so I still don't see the point that you are trying to make.

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 06:50 AM
But you attack Christianity
Wrong. I defend Christianity from attacks on it by ANYONE who attacks it--whether the attackers are atheists, Muslims, Jews, Trinitarians or Calvinists, but I don't go out of my way to create threads doing that. I mostly just read attacks on LDSism by you and your comrades, and then I defend both Christianity and LDSism (since they are often attacked simultaneously) from attacks on them.

For example, if you were to claim that the story of Jesus' birth or death or resurrection never happened, I would defend those tenets of Christianity by stating I believe those events really happened.

If you and all other anti-LDS people stopped posting attacks on LDSism, I am pretty sure I would stop posting defenses.
If your claim is that if pro-LDS would stop defending LDSism then this forum would die, that claim may be true, but it wouldn't be very meaningful. It would be like the Nazis claiming that if the Jews would have just stopped resisting and turned themselves in for extermination, then WW2 would have ended sooner and the world would be a better place.

The problem isn't with the defenders, it's with the aggressors/attackers.

James Banta
10-15-2013, 10:00 AM
Wrong. I defend Christianity from attacks on it by ANYONE who attacks it--whether the attackers are atheists, Muslims, Jews, Trinitarians or Calvinists, but I don't go out of my way to create threads doing that. I mostly just read attacks on LDSism by you and your comrades, and then I defend both Christianity and LDSism (since they are often attacked simultaneously) from attacks on them.

For example, if you were to claim that the story of Jesus' birth or death or resurrection never happened, I would defend those tenets of Christianity by stating I believe those events really happened.

If you and all other anti-LDS people stopped posting attacks on LDSism, I am pretty sure I would stop posting defenses.
If your claim is that if pro-LDS would stop defending LDSism then this forum would die, that claim may be true, but it wouldn't be very meaningful. It would be like the Nazis claiming that if the Jews would have just stopped resisting and turned themselves in for extermination, then WW2 would have ended sooner and the world would be a better place.

The problem isn't with the defenders, it's with the aggressors/attackers.

That is just what I do.. If someone say, Joseph Smith, teaches that there are three Gods (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. I defend the Christian faith and the Biblical tenant that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29).. If Someone say, Joseph Smith teaches that a man can marry more than one woman (D&C 132), I defend the Christian teaching that Church leaders must have just one wife (1Tim 3:2). If some church teaches that they can become a God to a population of people as the Father is our God ( Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.69 - p.70, p.97 - p.98). I defend Christianity that Only God is God and He who knows all things doesn't know of any other Gods (Isaiah 44:8).. When a church teaches that God became God though obedience to His God's laws and ordinances (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 302-303). I defend the Christian faith that God has been God from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). When a church teaches that the Father has a body of flesh and bone (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22). I defend the truth that God is Spirit, and Invisible, and that a spirit hasn't a tangible body (John 4:24, Col 1:15, Luke 24:39).. When a church teaches that obedience to laws and ordinances is the way to eternal life (AofF 3), I must defend the Christian faith that salvation is obtained only by the Grace of God though Faith in Jesus and NOT BY WORKS. (Eph 2:8-9). I insist as the Bible teaches that if salvation is by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6).

You therefore are defending a false religion you have called Christianity that is not Christian at all.. Yes you Don't like Calvinism because it claims that God has pre-chosen who will be saved and who will be ****ed. But If Jesus isn't a liar and He Is actually present before Abraham existed is He also not also present at the end of the age? Does he not know all things even what happens at the end of the age? Then He knows who will and who will not accept the gift of grace to eternal life through faith in Jesus.. Than is the main problem you have with Calvinism is how much you and the LDS church wish to limit God.. Christian teach that God knows even the number of hairs on our heads (Matthew 10:30). If such a trivial matter in important to Him isn't the matter of your eternal destiny more so? Would he also know if you would turn to Him or rebel and **** yourself to the Lake of Fire?

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

Surely you don't doubt that God know all things and the truth of His promises stand good for all time? If He knows all things He knows who will be His and who will not.. That is all Calvinist teach in their doctrine of Eternal security and Predestination. Doesn't the Bible teach predestination?

Rom 8:21
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those He knew from the beginning He predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus who was the firstborn in the resurrection of all who would believe.. Jeff I see one a truth in your post.. We that defend the faith have no problem here, it is those that would destroy the truth with their aggression against it that have a problem.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 12:31 PM
But Jim, Joseph Smith isn't creating threads attacking Christianity or any subset of it. If he ever does start doing that, you are free to defend any belief you think needs defending.

Similarly, Pastor Roger Williams, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, made statements that you might consider to be attacks on Christianity. Statements such as:

"..."There is no regularly-cons***uted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking...the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But since he's dead, and isn't creating threads, we don't need to create threads defending Christianity from his attacks, right?

RealFakeHair
10-15-2013, 12:59 PM
But Jim, Joseph Smith isn't creating threads attacking Christianity or any subset of it. If he ever does start doing that, you are free to defend any belief you think needs defending.

Similarly, Pastor Roger Williams, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, made statements that you might consider to be attacks on Christianity. Statements such as:

"..."There is no regularly-cons***uted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking...the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But since he's dead, and isn't creating threads, we don't need to create threads defending Christianity from his attacks, right?

Was that the same Roger Williams who sang, 'Trailers for sale or rent.'?

James Banta
10-15-2013, 01:41 PM
But Jim, Joseph Smith isn't creating threads attacking Christianity or any subset of it. If he ever does start doing that, you are free to defend any belief you think needs defending.

Similarly, Pastor Roger Williams, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, made statements that you might consider to be attacks on Christianity. Statements such as:

"..."There is no regularly-cons***uted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking...the apostasy ... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."

But since he's dead, and isn't creating threads, we don't need to create threads defending Christianity from his attacks, right?

You can say it was Jesus that said "they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JSH 19) That quote was never included in Smith's handwritten history of 1832. It wasn't added until the 1842 version of the first was published.. So who really came up with this attack on the Christian body? It looks more like it was Smith's work and not a statement from God..

As for Roger Williams, he was a fallen man and made many a mistake in his life this was just one of them.. Like the LDS in making this statement Williams denyed the promises of Jesus that after Jesus established His Church it would stand even it it were attacked by the gates of hell.. In the establishment of the Catholic church I can say that the Church was attacked by the gates of hell.. She survived! It is sad that a man like Williams couldn't identify Her..

You are right we don't need to discuss Williams at all.. He didn't speak for the Church, or the Lord.. He spoke for Himself.. I disagree with him, but I will allow him to be judged by God and not me.. At least Williams didn't set himself up as a prophet or an Apostle to recreate what God said could be destroyed.. IHS jim

nrajeffreturns
10-15-2013, 03:37 PM
Was that the same Roger Williams who sang, 'Trailers for sale or rent.'?

Yes, except that he changed his last name to "MILLER" when he did the song.... :)

RealFakeHair
10-16-2013, 07:37 AM
Yes, except that he changed his last name to "MILLER" when he did the song.... :)

How did I get that so wrong? Okay, now I remember, Roger Williams was the conductor, I can't remember which rail-road?

nrajeffreturns
10-16-2013, 08:18 PM
How did I get that so wrong? Okay, now I remember, Roger Williams was the conductor, I can't remember which rail-road?

I have gotten them mixed up before, too.

dberrie2000
10-17-2013, 05:29 AM
That is just what I do.. If someone say, Joseph Smith, teaches that there are three Gods (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473).. I defend the Christian faith and the Biblical tenant that God is one Lord (Deut 6:4, Mark 12:29)..

1 John 5:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Which one of those three do you believe is not a God?

Billyray
10-17-2013, 11:52 PM
1 John 5:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Which one of those three do you believe is not a God?
All three are God.

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 05:07 AM
All three are God.

And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 1:2-9----King James Version (KJV)


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Billyray
10-18-2013, 02:41 PM
And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:

I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Could you expound for me.

dberrie2000
10-18-2013, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 1:2-9----King James Version (KJV)


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[QUOTE=Billyray;148613]I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Could you expound for me.

My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Billyray
10-18-2013, 11:19 PM
My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:

But who is the God of the OT according to Mormonism? The Father or the Son?

dberrie2000
10-19-2013, 04:40 AM
Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


But who is the God of the OT according to Mormonism? The Father or the Son?

Both. It was usually Christ speaking in the OT--and the NT--when Deity is identified. But the only "one God" ever identified in the NT was God the Father:


1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Billyray
10-19-2013, 04:32 PM
But who is the God of the OT according to Mormonism? The Father or the Son?

Both. . .

Below is a quote from the LDS Bible Dictionary


LDS Bible Dictionary
Jehovah
"The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM” (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). The original pronunciation of this name has possibly been lost, as the Jews, in reading, never mentioned it but subs***uted one of the other names of God, usually Adonai. Probably it was pronounced Jahveh, or Yahveh. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by Lord or God, printed in small capitals. Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ. . ."

Billyray
10-19-2013, 04:44 PM
But the only "one God" ever identified in the NT was God the Father:

You know that is not true DB. Jesus is clearly identified as God in the NT.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

BTW who is Thomas' God according to Thomas?

James Banta
10-24-2013, 10:18 PM
1 John 5:7---King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Which one of those three do you believe is not a God?

DB you must have a short attentions span.. The Father, Son , and the Holy Spirit are the one true God.. Therefore all three of these divine Persons are God.. I thought you have been aware of that doctrine whether you believe it or not.. Your rejection of that God is what makes you non, even anti Christian.. IHS jim

James Banta
10-24-2013, 10:25 PM
[quote] Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post----And only One is the God of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 1:2-9----King James Version (KJV)


2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:


1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



My point is Jesus had the same God and Father as mankind does--and it is not God the Son:


John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Are you actually denying the divinity of JESUS in this post? That is what it looks like.. If that is what you believe you have named your church after a false teacher One that Claimed the ***le used by God as Him name.. YHWH, "I AM" (John 8:58).. So if Jesus isn't the second Person of the one single Being of God, He was either MAD, or a liar.. Which are you saying He is? IHS jim