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AllyManderson
04-12-2009, 03:46 PM
If everyone has a King James could you open it please and take a look at Chapter 9 in the book of Genesis.

I have some questions regarding it. :)

AllyManderson
04-12-2009, 03:48 PM
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the
earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth,
and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb
have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast
will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every manís
brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth manís blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the
image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth,
and multiply therein.
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after
you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle,
and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to
every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off
any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood
to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between
me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual
generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant
between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to p***, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow
shall be seen in the cloud:
15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and
every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a
flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may
remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living
creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have
established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham,
and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth
overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within
his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told
his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their
shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father;
and their faces were backward, and they saw not their fatherís nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had
done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his
brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his
servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and
Canaan shall be his servant.
28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

asdf
04-12-2009, 05:56 PM
..........

AllyManderson
04-12-2009, 06:09 PM
Now that there has been ample time for people to become familiar with the text.

My questions are thus

How might someone use this chapter: (As in, Have you ever heard it used...)
i) Justify Alcohol Consumption
ii) Justify Slavery

Furthermore

iii) Can these periods of time (Life of Noah) be explained outside of scripture?

:) Awaiting reply.

asdf
04-12-2009, 06:24 PM
How might someone use this chapter: (As in, Have you ever heard it used...)
i) Justify Alcohol Consumption

The p***age appears to be descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes Noah drinking, and getting drunk, without commenting on whether or not it was "justified".

Presumably, it is apparent to the reader that Noah's drunkenness was unhealthy. However, whatever it is that Ham did seemed to draw more ire.


ii) Justify Slavery

I've heard that this p***age was used to justify slavery, especially in America's past, but (fortunately) have never heard that argument made in person.


iii) Can these periods of time (Life of Noah) be explained outside of scripture?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if there is evidence outside the scriptures for humans living 300+ years? (If that's what you're asking, No.)

AllyManderson
04-13-2009, 03:18 PM
The p***age appears to be descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes Noah drinking, and getting drunk, without commenting on whether or not it was "justified".

Presumably, it is apparent to the reader that Noah's drunkenness was unhealthy. However, whatever it is that Ham did seemed to draw more ire.



I've heard that this p***age was used to justify slavery, especially in America's past, but (fortunately) have never heard that argument made in person.



I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if there is evidence outside the scriptures for humans living 300+ years? (If that's what you're asking, No.)

:) Thanks.

alanmolstad
03-14-2014, 05:54 AM
Now that there has been ample time for people to become familiar with the text.

My questions are thus

How might someone use this chapter: (As in, Have you ever heard it used...)
i) Justify Alcohol Consumption
ii) Justify Slavery

Furthermore

iii) Can these periods of time (Life of Noah) be explained outside of scripture?

:) Awaiting reply.

Asdf is correct.
The text is simply telling us what happened, and is not telling us what should happen.

as for the ages of dates and how clearly unbelievable the ages of some many people are said to have reached?...i dont believe the numbers for a second.

I once read a work by a Bible teacher that held to the idea that the crazy numbers are simply the result of using two or more different ways to count..as if you were saying the temperature outside was Zero degrees Centigrade and 32 degrees Fahrenheit....then adding the Zero to the 32 and getting 320 degrees.

alanmolstad
03-20-2014, 02:34 PM
Now as for the 'thing' that the one son did to his nude/drunk father?.....

When you read the story, you are forced to the conclusion that it was "weird gay stuff"

Look, if your dad is drunk and p***ed out and nude, it's not something that you get recorded in the Bible, nor do the sons need to walk backward into the tent to cover the body like we see recorded.

This points us to the only answer in that there was some type of "Weird gay Stuff" still there....even later...that the other two sons had to cover up ...and that they didnt even want to look at whatever "it" was...


Also, when the father wakes up he seems to know right away that something, "unspeakable" had been done to him.

So while I have heard many sermons on this section of the bible, and a lot of bible teachers try to skim past this with the answer that it was just the fact that the father was nude that was the issue here....I never believed that answer for a moment!



Nope.....it was weird gay stuff.....

Saxon
10-26-2014, 07:48 AM
It was a matter of respect towards their father. The text does not indicate "weird gay stuff". You should explain your remarks and support them with scripture. As it stands this is just an attack on Noah.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 07:48 AM
It was a matter of respect towards their father. The text does not indicate "weird gay stuff". You should explain your remarks and support them with scripture. As it stands this is just an attack on Noah.
Noah gets up from being drunk, and knows , without being told, what his son had "done" to him.

thats the proof!

Something was "done" to Noah.
This unknown "something that was "done" to him is also something that noah woke up and knew right away had happend.
This means that Noah could tell.....Noah could somehow tell that one of his sons had "done" something to him.


The something that was 'done" to him was connected with being nude.



So Noah is p***ed out cold and one of his sons walks in and does something to Noah that later Noah wakes up and right away knows what was done, and who did it without being told.....


Just "looking" as someone without clothes is not even in the ball park here.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 07:50 AM
Once again,,,we are back to "weird gay stuff" as the only answer that fits the text.

Saxon
01-09-2017, 08:24 AM
Noah gets up from being drunk, and knows , without being told, what his son had "done" to him.

thats the proof!

Something was "done" to Noah.
This unknown "something that was "done" to him is also something that noah woke up and knew right away had happend.
This means that Noah could tell.....Noah could somehow tell that one of his sons had "done" something to him.


The something that was 'done" to him was connected with being nude.



So Noah is p***ed out cold and one of his sons walks in and does something to Noah that later Noah wakes up and right away knows what was done, and who did it without being told.....


Just "looking" as someone without clothes is not even in the ball park here.


Where is there any indication that there was more than "just looking"? You are very imaginative and you seem to be leading to a dirty mind as well.

There is no indication that he was not told. You also tend to not want to comprehend what was written. There was only one that saw Noah's nakedness and he was the one that was cursed. The text only refers to seeing Noah's nakedness and nothing more.

There is nothing in the text about "gay weird sex" except in your dirty mind.


Genesis 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Genesis 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Genesis 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Genesis 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Genesis 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Genesis 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 08:48 AM
There is no indication that he was not told......
You cant support an idea based only on a lack of supporting text..

This means you cant claim that Noah was told based on the fact that the bible does not say he was not told...


All we can prove is:
that Noah got drunk...
That Noah fell asleep.
That noah did this without any clothes on.






That he son came in
That when Noah woke up he knew something had been "done" to him
That Noah knew without being told what had been 'done' to him, and who did this to him.



Thus we have a situation where the claim that it was just 'seeing" him without any clothes just does not cut it.

"Looking" at a person while they are asleep is not something that later you can tell was 'done" to you....after all, you were asleep.

But there are things that another person can do to you while you are p***ed out and nude that later when you wake up you can tell were 'done" to you, just as when Noah woke he could tell what was "done" to him...





Now what about this phrase used in the verse that talks about the son seeing his father's "nakedness"?
What is that talking about?

I believe it is a phrase that was well known to be talking about 'sex"

I believe the Bible makes it clear that when it talks about 'sex' at times it will use a word or phrase that mean "sex"....

Its like when people say they get to "know" their wife in the biblical way.....they mean that had "sex"



Its the same with seeing your father's "nakedness"

it means they had sex.




To support this, look at other verses in the Bible where we are dealing with the same phrase.
Leviticus 20:11
Leviticus 18:7
Leviticus 18:8
Deuteronomy 22:30
Deuteronomy 27:20




From the Text of the bible where the same wording us used it is clear we are talking about "sex"!


This is the reason as well in the story about Noah.
It is the only answer that agrees with the text in other verses, and it fits the context of the story that tells us that when Noah woke up he knew right away what had been "done" to him....

What had been done to him was Sex.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 09:06 AM
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 09:07 AM
You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, that is, the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother; you are not to uncover her nakedness.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 09:07 AM
'You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 09:08 AM
A man shall not take his father's wife so that he will not uncover his father's skirt.

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 09:09 AM
Cursed is he who lies with his father's wife, because he has uncovered his father's skirt.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.'

alanmolstad
01-09-2017, 09:15 AM
And finally to wrap it all up...

It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife


So to sum it all up/....

To have sex with the wife of a father is to be said as seeing his "nakedness".
this is also called "fornication".

So we clearly see now that the Bible does make use of the phrase when talking about seeing a father's nakedness to mean in reality - "sex"

alanmolstad
01-10-2017, 08:12 AM
I once read a work by a Bible teacher that held to the idea that the crazy numbers are simply the result of using two or more different ways to count..as if you were saying the temperature outside was Zero degrees Centigrade and 32 degrees Fahrenheit....then adding the Zero to the 32 and getting 320 degrees.

I believe that down the line in the future that Bible students will be able to understand what happend to the numbers used at times in the Bible.
An example is the great ages that some people are said to have lived...100s of years and such...

What I think may well prove true is that the different translators used different ways of talking about counting to try to make it more clear what numbers were in the text, only to have this messed up later by others who did not know what they were reading.

That is why my example above is what i think is very close to what happend to the listed numbers in the bible...

alanmolstad
03-04-2017, 09:34 PM
I think I have more than proved that what the Bible is talking about is "gay sex stuff"

alanmolstad
03-10-2017, 05:30 AM
There is an understandable reluctance to understanding that a son had "done" something sexual to his father.
I can understand why people dont really want to talk about such an event.

But from the way the text reads, and when you go and look at the other places in the Bible where the same phrase is used, the fact is, that this is how the Bible talks about this issue.

The bible is in fact telling us that some mighty weird gay-sex stuff took place in the story, like it or not its how the story reads...