The Finite God

[Free]

In my study of cults and world religions, I've come to a conclusion based upon their common thread of works based Soteriology: all their gods are finite. Here is the logical breakdown.

In Christianity, God is infinite, thus His Character and His Nature are infinite. When we sin, our sin is against his Character/Nature, thus our sin is infinite.

By definition, an infinite has no beginning and no end, cannot be divided, cannot be crossed, etc. The only thing that can theoretically "cover" or "cross" an infinite is another infinite.

In Christianity, Christ's blood is that infinite with which we are saved. Our works, being finite, cannot influence our salvation in any way, as our separation from God is infinite due to our sin being against His infinite nature, as has already been said.

In Islam, salvation is dependent upon man's works, and God's mercy. This is a problem however. Man's works are finite, thus unable to influence an infinite separation in any way. Also, since their is a cooperation in salvation, the atonement in Islam is a division of the transgression against Allah.

In other words, the covering of the seperation from God is covered by Man's works partially, and God's work partially. This cannot be, however, if the separation is infinite, as an infinite cannot be divided.

Since this is the soteriology of Islam however, we can conclude logically that the separation between Allah and man is not infinite, but finite. But if man is sinning against Allah in His nature, then we must conclude that Allah is finite as well.

Thus:

Man sins against God's attributes in their entirety (IOW, all of his love, all of his goodness, etc).

Mans atonement for such separation is finite.

God's attributes thus must be finite, thus making God himself finite.


I apologize for the length of this thread, but it is more difficult to write than verbalize.

[Pamela]

Hi Free,

I agree that Islam has a cultish-sort of following, however, I don't think they consider that Allah is a finite God. They believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham, just like Christians and Jews.

My question to you, do you also think Jews believe in a finite God? Like Muslims there are certain works which they feel are pleasing to God, as well as others which they believe are displeasing to God.

Pamela

[Free]

Hi Free,

I agree that Islam has a cultish-sort of following, however, I don't think they consider that Allah is a finite God. They believe they are worshipping the God of Abraham, just like Christians and Jews.

My question to you, do you also think Jews believe in a finite God? Like Muslims there are certain works which they feel are pleasing to God, as well as others which they believe are displeasing to God.

Pamela


I did not say the believe in a finite god. In fact, they say that don't. However, it is the logical conclusion of their soteriology. In fact, any works based soteriology results in a finite god.

Judaism does not hold salvation by the Law. If you recall, they are looking for a Messiah. Thus, while their immediate soteriology seems to be works based, they still hinge it upon a future Messiah.

However, if there are Jewish prac***ioners who feel that their works and following the Law will save them, then yes, they are serving a finite god. In fact, they are serving a false god. Paul pointed this out many times in the NT where he wrote that works of the Law cannot save you. If you rely upon them, you will die in your works.

This isn't a question about what is "pleasing" to God, it is a question about soteriology (salvation).

I apologize for not providing verses for some of my points (like Paul's writings). I'll see if I can find some, although I'm sure you have already read htem before.

[Free]

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

[Free]

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


Seems pretty clear. The Law was never meant to save anyone, but rather to reveal mans sinfulness and point to Christ, the fulfiller of the Law.

[Pamela]

Hi Free,

I must admit that your line of reasoning has left me a bit befuddled. If your purpose was to disprove Islam, I believe there are much easier ways to approach it.

Pamela

[Trinity]

Judaism does not hold salvation by the Law. If you recall, they are looking for a Messiah. Thus, while their immediate soteriology seems to be works based, they still hinge it upon a future Messiah.

You are analyzing Judaism into a christian perspective and not throughout the perspective of the Judaism. For the Jews, the law is everything.

I agree with you that they were waiting for a Messiah (king + prophet), but they never waited for a crucified Messiah (the Christian Messiah). The Mohammedans also wait for a near come of a Messiah.

The observance of the law for the Jews is the fundamental of their soteriology. Same thing about the five pillars of Islam. This is the fundamental of their soteriology.

Ps 119:174 -I long for your salvation, O Lord, and your law is my delight.

In the Epistle to the Romans Paul has exposed his new soteriological comprehension, and have opposed, to the Jewish traditional soteriological understanding from his time. That caused a clash and a division among the Jews, and a new school of thought was founded, the christianity.

Trinity

[Free]

Hi Free,

I must admit that your line of reasoning has left me a bit befuddled. If your purpose was to disprove Islam, I believe there are much easier ways to approach it.

Pamela

I'm sure, but this line of reasoning has broader application than just to Islam. This reasoning works for any works based soteriologies including:

Mormonism
Jehovah's Witness
Oneness Theology
Et Cetera

[Free]

You are analyzing Judaism into a christian perspective and not throughout the perspective of the Judaism. For the Jews, the law is everything.

I agree with you that they were waiting for a Messiah (king + prophet), but they never waited for a crucified Messiah (the Christian Messiah). The Mohammedans also wait for a near come of a Messiah.

The observance of the law for the Jews is the fundamental of their soteriology. Same thing about the five pillars of Islam. This is the fundamental of their soteriology.

Ps 119:174 -I long for your salvation, O Lord, and your law is my delight.

In the Epistle to the Romans Paul has exposed his new soteriological comprehension, and have opposed, to the Jewish traditional soteriological understanding from his time. That caused a clash and a division among the Jews, and a new school of thought was founded, the christianity.

Trinity

The Law, however, as we know, was never intended to save a person's soul. The Jews misunderstanding of the Law has no bearing on this argument. Works-based soteriologies result in finite deity.

If the Jews misunderstand the Law (which Christ and the Apostles pointed out that they had) as being the means of their Salvation, then yes, they are serving a false God and NOT Yahweh.

[Trinity]

The Law, however, as we know, was never intended to save a person's soul. The Jews misunderstanding of the Law has no bearing on this argument. Works-based soteriologies result in finite deity.

If the Jews misunderstand the Law (which Christ and the Apostles pointed out that they had) as being the means of their Salvation, then yes, they are serving a false God and NOT Yahweh.

For the Jew before Jesus, and after Jesus, salvation comes by the ethical observance of the law. The just is a moral observer and a conscience objector. The Jews do not want to be converted because they are ******** of the Gospel but because they have an other view of the Old Testament expressed by the Talmud.

The Talmud and the New Testament are two distinctive commentaries about the Old Testament. I persist in my comprehension that christians look at Jews with their pair of glasses.

It is false to believe that Jews do not understand the New Testament, they simply have an other perception about the ancient sacred texts. Many of them have written books about the christianity. You can find some on Amazon.com.

Trinity

[BroDave]

Hi Trinity. Are you saying that a person can be saved by "ethical observance of the law"?

[Trinity]

Hi Trinity. Are you saying that a person can be saved by "ethical observance of the law"?

Hello BroDave,

No.

Salvation is related to a love story. Love is freeing us.

Matthew 22:36-40

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

In South Africa there was laws against the Blacks (Apartheid). That only proved that White men can observe laws without love. A man came (Nelson Mandela) and he changed everything. That man loved white men and black men equally.

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."---Desmond Tutu, South African Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town.

The Moses Law was something that was temporary. Christ love is superior to the Moses Law. Laws are generating fears, but love is generating freedom, and a heart for peace.

Trinity

[Ichigo]

Hey Trinity!
Greetings, old friend, Ichigo (aka mpowel13, Matt Powell) here. I wanted to ask you a direct question: do you believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God?

[Trinity]

I wanted to ask you a direct question: do you believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God?

Hello Matt,

This is a tough question.

We christians, we believe that Jesus is God. This is not the case for the Muslims. In short, they are not accepting the dogma of trinity as a truthful paragon. This is also the same-thing for the Jews.

However, because Muslims are also Semites their monotheistic views are similar to the Jews. I would say that Yahweh and Allah are pretty near by definition, and both they have the same comprehension of God.

In conclusion, the three religions share the same comprehension about God the Father. Though, their traditions are differing.

Book recommendation:

Islam: A Short History
by Karen Armstrong

http://www.longitudebooks.com/images/book_large/ISL15.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-History-Modern-Library-Chronicles/dp/081296618X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225648393&sr=1-1

This is good to see you with us again. :)

Trinity

[Bat-Man]

In Christianity, God is infinite, thus His Character and His Nature are infinite.
The issue is more complex than can be reflected in that simple statement.

We do know there is only one kind of being we call God with that kind of being being the best kind of being in all of existence, but while there is only one kind of being we call God, that God consists of individual persons who are each, individually, referred to as God with one who is called the Father of (at least) one of the others who is called the Son.

We also know that God is eternal in the sense that the kind of being God is is eternal, thus we know that life for God does not begin at conception because the life of God doesn't begin. Life is reproduced as each kind of being reproduces in whatever way that kind of being reproduces, and all men and women are the children of our Father in heaven although not all of us call him our Father.

The whole purpose of the atonement of Jesus Christ is to restore us to the condition of Adam and Eve that they once enjoyed in the garden of Eden while we, as their posterity, will retain our knowledge of good and evil and an ability/desire to produce children and an ability to eat food and have dominion over a planet just as Adam and Eve had before they "fell" and couldn't back up by themselves.

Btw, I speak as a Christian after the order of Melchizedek, so all of you who refuse to accept what you hear when you find out you are hearing from a "Mormon" may now do whatever you want to do with what I have told you.

... and, no, I will not be hanging around here to respond to any questions.

You can come and see what we (LDS) have in the Mormonism (LDS) forum.

[contraeverything]

In my study of cults and world religions, I've come to a conclusion based upon their common thread of works based Soteriology: all their gods are finite. Here is the logical breakdown.

In Christianity, God is infinite, thus His Character and His Nature are infinite. When we sin, our sin is against his Character/Nature, thus our sin is infinite.

By definition, an infinite has no beginning and no end, cannot be divided, cannot be crossed, etc. The only thing that can theoretically "cover" or "cross" an infinite is another infinite.

In Christianity, Christ's blood is that infinite with which we are saved. Our works, being finite, cannot influence our salvation in any way, as our separation from God is infinite due to our sin being against His infinite nature, as has already been said.

In Islam, salvation is dependent upon man's works, and God's mercy. This is a problem however. Man's works are finite, thus unable to influence an infinite separation in any way. Also, since their is a cooperation in salvation, the atonement in Islam is a division of the transgression against Allah.

In other words, the covering of the seperation from God is covered by Man's works partially, and God's work partially. This cannot be, however, if the separation is infinite, as an infinite cannot be divided.

Since this is the soteriology of Islam however, we can conclude logically that the separation between Allah and man is not infinite, but finite. But if man is sinning against Allah in His nature, then we must conclude that Allah is finite as well.

Thus:

Man sins against God's attributes in their entirety (IOW, all of his love, all of his goodness, etc).

Mans atonement for such separation is finite.

God's attributes thus must be finite, thus making God himself finite.


I apologize for the length of this thread, but it is more difficult to write than verbalize.

You make a compelling philosophical argument - I can see where you are coming from.

I only have one question: Why is it necessary to divide the infinite (i.e., the infinite distance between ourselves and God/Allah due to our sin)? It is certainly mathematically/conceptually impossible to divide the infinite, but I wonder if that is the only way to conceive of the problem of the distance between God/Allah and man due to man's sin?

I say this because I can almost see that the way that you characterize Muslim soteriology as being something akin to Catholic soteriology, and I can envision both as not demanding a "division" per se of the infinite offense we have rendered to God/Allah or the infinite distance between us and him, but rather fashioning an argument such as this:

"We do all we can to do traverse this infinite distance or to rectify this infinite offense, and the mercy of God/Allah simply makes up the rest."

I agree, the point you are making extends far beyond Islam - even as far as, perchance, Universalism.

But can you see my postulated argument? How would you handle it?

If God's infinite goodness and mercy were simply extended "far enough to make up the breach" between man's works and God, this would not make Him necessarily finite, would it?

This is a striking thread. Thanks for introducing it.