So what's the difference -

[Bob Carabbio]

Between "Charisma" - and "Gifts of the Spirit" - seems a bit redundant.

IN the '70s "Charisma", and "Charismatic" were terms which appeared to be intended primarily to differentiate between folks involved the "Charismatic outpouring" of '66-78, and the Old-Line Full Gospel churches that developed from the "Pentecostal revival" of 1900 - 1917.

Since the gap between the Historic pentecostals and the Charismatics has pretty much gone away in these days of cross-pollination, the differentiation seems unnecessary.

[Kevin]

Hello Bob,

I am being redundant. A couple of people asked me to define some of the terms on the board so I did. Hermeneutics was another and others.

Kevin

[dave52_47]

The Spiritual Gift of..
Is this for today or has it ceased? Ihave an opinion on this, but am curious to know what others may think. I'm not referring to the general use of 'discernment' as in differentiating between two..whatevers.

Dave

[Trinity]

The Spiritual Gift of..
Is this for today or has it ceased? Ihave an opinion on this, but am curious to know what others may think. I'm not referring to the general use of 'discernment' as in differentiating between two..whatevers.

Hello Dave,

Before anything welcome in this new Forum. :)

Now, to answer your question. I am of the opinion that there is a large part of subjectivity from the human being (susceptibility among a human group/capacity for receiving mental or moral impressions; tendency to be emotionally affected/the state of being predisposed/pressures from the group, etc ). For me, this tongues phenomenon is exaggerated.

Furthermore, this is not sine qua non or a conditio sine qua non for our salvation.


A Latin legal term for "(a condition) without which it could not be" or "but for..." or "without which (there is) nothing." It refers to an indispensable and essential action, condition, or ingredient.

Trinity

[Leslie]

I am fully persuaded from both the Biblical texts and from personal experience that whatever the Holy Spirit did two thousand years ago he can and still does today. As far as I'm concerned, He can do whatever he likes to do through whomever he wants to do it through. Who are we to limit what the Spirit of God can do?

[Trinity]

I am fully persuaded from both the Biblical texts and from personal experience that whatever the Holy Spirit did two thousand years ago he can and still does today. As far as I'm concerned, He can do whatever he likes to do through whomever he wants to do it through. Who are we to limit what the Spirit of God can do?

Hello Leslie,

I agree with you that the Holy Spirit can do what he wants and I do not doubt about his omnipotence. However, there is a lot of counterfeit miracles and many con artists into the pentecostal movement. Fraudulence, sham, forgery and swindle. Benny Hinn and others, they can speak in tongues, but I stay skeptical. There's no business like show business. They know and understood the technics of marketing.

I always believed that the Holy Spirit is more perceptual by his fruit.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I also agree that Paul wrote on the charismata, but for him, this was not the most important thing to follow for our salvation. I think this is more accessory.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Hello Leslie,

I agree with you that the Holy Spirit can do what he wants and I do not doubt about his omnipotence. However, there is a lot of counterfeit miracles and many con artists into the pentecostal movement. Fraudulence, sham, forgery and swindle. Benny Hinn and others, they can speak in tongues, but I stay skeptical. There's no business like show business. They know and understood the technics of marketing.

I always believed that the Holy Spirit is more perceptual by his fruit.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I also agree that Paul wrote on the charismata, but for him, this was not the most important thing to follow for our salvation. I think this is more accessory.

Trinity


I agree with you that there alot of fakers and conterfeiters, and even some that derive their gifts from the Devil. But let me say this. I'm am 100% sure that there are a majority of Christians who take the Eucharist aka comunion unworthy or with a hypocrite spirit. Should we then forbid people from doing it?

Just because there are some things wrong with the way some use the gifts doesn't mean you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Trinity]

But let me say this. I'm am 100% sure that there are a majority of Christians who take the Eucharist aka comunion unworthy or with a hypocrite spirit. Should we then forbid people from doing it?

Just because there are some things wrong with the way some use the gifts doesn't mean you need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You make a good point. I agree. :)

I would also add, just because there was a physician called Josef Mengele, alias the angel of death, we can not say that all physicians are evil. The problem is always the charlatans and not the charismata.

However, for me, this is not my path for a higher spirituality.

Trinity

[dave52_47]

I am fully persuaded from both the Biblical texts and from personal experience that whatever the Holy Spirit did two thousand years ago he can and still does today. As far as I'm concerned, He can do whatever he likes to do through whomever he wants to do it through. Who are we to limit what the Spirit of God can do?

Thank you Leslie. I take that as a "yes" that you do believe that all gifts, including discernment (distinguishing) of spirits, are being distributed today.

Alot of Christians believe that certain gifts have ceased at the end of the Apostoloc era or the completion of the New Testament, others that none have ceased and all are still in use, and still others believe that certain gifts have ceased but they wouldn't ever put limits on God by saying that He can never reintroduce those gifts whenever He wants to. That was the reason for my question. Alot of people have very stong opinions concerning Spitiual Gifts and I am interested primarily in the gift I cited and looking for Biblical support for any of these views pertaining to that particular gift, which of course would apply to all gifts said to have ceased.

Dave

[dave52_47]

[QUOTE] I also agree that Paul wrote on the charismata, but for him, this was not the most important thing to follow for our salvation. I think this is more accessory.

Hi Trinity,
There are many gifts listed in Ephesians, Romans, I Corinthians, and in 2 Peter and I feel that we neglect them to our own detriment. Admittedly there are extremes from over-emphasis on certain gifts to under-emphasis on seeking to discover one's gift(s) for service within the Body of Christ.

I really was just inquiring about the gift of discernment, but you have brought up an important point about the abuse of many of the more sensational gifts today, and I concur wholeheartedly with you there.

Dave

[Bob Carabbio]

I have known a few folks over the last 40 years who manifested the Gift of the Discernation of spirits.

It's demonstrated nicely by Jesus in the discourse with Peter where Pete tells Jesus He's the "messiah" and Jesus identifies the SOURCE of his proclamation to be the Holy Spirit, and when Pete tells Jesus a bit later that He SHOULDN'T die - Jesus identifies the SOURCE of THAT proclamation to be satan.

OF course it's still available to the Church today. All the gifts mentioned in the Word are including the "Master list" of nine which are actually "categories" of giftings, and not inclusive. The Holy Spirit hasn't changed since the beginning, and what he could do in Genesis, He STILL does.

[jean]

I have known a few folks over the last 40 years who manifested the Gift of the Discernation of spirits.

It's demonstrated nicely by Jesus in the discourse with Peter where Pete tells Jesus He's the "messiah" and Jesus identifies the SOURCE of his proclamation to be the Holy Spirit, and when Pete tells Jesus a bit later that He SHOULDN'T die - Jesus identifies the SOURCE of THAT proclamation to be satan.

OF course it's still available to the Church today. All the gifts mentioned in the Word are including the "Master list" of nine which are actually "categories" of giftings, and not inclusive. The Holy Spirit hasn't changed since the beginning, and what he could do in Genesis, He STILL does.

I believe people do receive the gift of tongues today. The Charismatic Movements are found in many denominations, including Catholics, Trinity:)
Ralph Martin appeared on EWTN and had much to say about the Cursillo Movement which started in Spain. Look Martin up on the net.
Early church, Acts 10:44 Acts 19:6-7
1Cor.12:30 tells us not all speak in tongues. We all are given gifts as the Holy Spirit determines. 1Cor.12:11

God bless,
p2

[dave52_47]

I have known a few folks over the last 40 years who manifested the Gift of the Discernation of spirits.

It's demonstrated nicely by Jesus in the discourse with Peter where Pete tells Jesus He's the "messiah" and Jesus identifies the SOURCE of his proclamation to be the Holy Spirit, and when Pete tells Jesus a bit later that He SHOULDN'T die - Jesus identifies the SOURCE of THAT proclamation to be satan.

OF course it's still available to the Church today. All the gifts mentioned in the Word are including the "Master list" of nine which are actually "categories" of giftings, and not inclusive. The Holy Spirit hasn't changed since the beginning, and what he could do in Genesis, He STILL does.

Bob,
Thanks for your answer. I too, believe that discernment of spirits is a gift that the Holy Spirit is still distributing. I also am aware that it has been terribly misrepresented and abused in some circles. I really have a problem with Christians casting demons out of Christians. I don't see a scriptural basis fopr demon possesion of a believer. That is one abuse. The other is calling every sin 'demonic' when the scripture clearly states that we still have our sin nature to deal with. We probably both agree with the origins of this gift in discerning true and false sources of beliefs, as your examples pointed out.

As to the continuation of all the gifts I can't agree. I believe that some were for a specific purpose and period of time and I believe that there is both Scriptural and Historical support for that view. I can't argue with you that the Holy Spirit can do what He wants and when He wants, but I don't think that he is distributing some of those gifts today because they are not really needed at present. Could He? Of course. But is He? I don't think so. Will He reintroduce them in whole or in part? He certainly could. But one thing I am sure of is that no one can be taught how to be an Apostle or Prophet or to speak in tongues. There is no scriptural basis for that.

Dave

[Leslie]

Bob,
Thanks for your answer. I too, believe that discernment of spirits is a gift that the Holy Spirit is still distributing. I also am aware that it has been terribly misrepresented and abused in some circles. I really have a problem with Christians casting demons out of Christians. I don't see a scriptural basis fopr demon possesion of a believer. That is one abuse. The other is calling every sin 'demonic' when the scripture clearly states that we still have our sin nature to deal with. We probably both agree with the origins of this gift in discerning true and false sources of beliefs, as your examples pointed out.

As to the continuation of all the gifts I can't agree. I believe that some were for a specific purpose and period of time and I believe that there is both Scriptural and Historical support for that view. I can't argue with you that the Holy Spirit can do what He wants and when He wants, but I don't think that he is distributing some of those gifts today because they are not really needed at present. Could He? Of course. But is He? I don't think so. Will He reintroduce them in whole or in part? He certainly could. But one thing I am sure of is that no one can be taught how to be an Apostle or Prophet or to speak in tongues. There is no scriptural basis for that.

Dave

I consider people who try to teach people how to Speak in Tongues as if it were a skill to learn to be close to blasphemy personally. My mother and father (who are both peachers) once told me about some Charismatics who were doing that near where they used to pastor. Mom and dad were raised old time pentecostal holiness, and to them Speaking in tongues wasn't something you learned or just did whenever you wanted to do it. It was a sacred experience in which the Holy Ghost spoke through you either to give out a message, pray to God through you, or give praise to God. To this day when I see some modern pentecostals or charismatics tell people when to speak in tongues or sing in tongues as if on cue, I cringe inside myself....it just does not feel right.

For me it was a personal thing, because I wasn't even seeking to have the gift of tongues. I just wanted a closer relationship with God and was in my room praying one night, and it just came upon me. It was the most humbling experience of my life when you feel something bubbling up inside of you and you know that you aren't the one doing it. I'm still humbled by it, and hate to see people either faking it or misusing it.

Just my thoughts anyway.

[dave52_47]

I consider people who try to teach people how to Speak in Tongues as if it were a skill to learn to be close to blasphemy personally. My mother and father (who are both peachers) once told me about some Charismatics who were doing that near where they used to pastor. Mom and dad were raised old time pentecostal holiness, and to them Speaking in tongues wasn't something you learned or just did whenever you wanted to do it. It was a sacred experience in which the Holy Ghost spoke through you either to give out a message, pray to God through you, or give praise to God. To this day when I see some modern pentecostals or charismatics tell people when to speak in tongues or sing in tongues as if on cue, I cringe inside myself....it just does not feel right.

For me it was a personal thing, because I wasn't even seeking to have the gift of tongues. I just wanted a closer relationship with God and was in my room praying one night, and it just came upon me. It was the most humbling experience of my life when you feel something bubbling up inside of you and you know that you aren't the one doing it. I'm still humbled by it, and hate to see people either faking it or misusing it.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Leslie,
That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard someone who is charismatic speak out so strongly against the abuse of tongues and evidently it's ability to be faked. I appreciate your honesty. I think many share your feeelings. A question for you about your experience. Was it in a known language accompanied by interpretation?

[Leslie]

Leslie,
That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard someone who is charismatic speak out so strongly against the abuse of tongues and evidently it's ability to be faked. I appreciate your honesty. I think many share your feeelings. A question for you about your experience. Was it in a known language accompanied by interpretation?

No, it was an unknown tongue. The best way I can describe it is like this.

"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." - Isaiah 28:11.

I have heard stories of meetings where there would be people from other nations who heard people speaking in tongues and when the message ws interpreted they understood it in their own language. Just like the day of Pentecost.

[Bob Carabbio]

Actually there's no Scriptural basis tor "Demon Possession" (As in "demonic ownership"), period. The Biblical term is "demonization" - to be oppressed by, or to be under the influence of a demon/demonic influence.

And THEORETICALLY the person themselves could deliver THEMSELVES from this oppression by coming against it in Jesus' name. But unfortunately we've "conditioned ourselves" to believe that there's no such thing, that it can't happen and there's nothing to be done about it.

In fact Christians are as likely to have demonic problems as anybody else - mostly because of the things we ALLOW into our senses, and the sloppy commitment we have in things Christian. We're WARNED not to "give place" to the enemy, and then we have Television sets in our living room piping the World's imagery, and lies into our minds, and training us that God's a big joke. What do we expect???

The simple question to ask is: Can satan put a suggestion into your mind? (of course he can) - and if you accept it (which you are free to do) and move on it - you're beginning to be demonized.

As far as ALL the gifts "not being needed" - on what basis wold you even THINK that?? Do people get sick? - then healings would be REALLY handy. Do people need Inspiration from God? "Word of Knowledge" will do the Job. DO folks need "Wisdom" - "Word of wisdom is right there. DO people and churches need Guidance? The prophetic word has always been valuable that way.

We've already talked about "Discernation - how about "miracles" makes NO SENSE to say we don't need them - my father in law was headed toward certain death in an out of control semi in an icy road - and Jesus came through the windshield, rolled him up and carried him out of the truck and set him down on the road. That's where the Maine State troopers found him - unscratched, and his truck all smashed against a bridge abutment. THAT "Miracle" was downright handy. And you DON'T think the giftings come in REALLY effectively in missionary work.

Frankly it's just pure foolishness to believe that they aren't JUST as important in 2008 as they were in 60 A.D. And they STILL serve EXACTLY the same purposes NOW as they did then. They CONFIRM the Word, and point folks to Jesus.

[Bob Carabbio]

Right on -

ANYTIME a church or a pastor tries to TEACH "tongues" - GET OUTTA THERE!! - they have no real idea what "tongues" even are, or how they happen, and they're trying to "Fake a miracle".

Mine came to me gently during a Worship service at an FGBMFI Dinner meeting in '73. There it was, and I'm STILL speaking it 35 years later.

BUT - almost ANYBODY can "Speak in tongues" with a little practice, AND give convincing and appropriately "spiritual sounding" interpretation and prophesy also, with the Holy Spirit nowhere in sight (which is another place where "discernation" comes in handy).

The WAY International (Victor Wierwille), in fact, for $300 would teach you to produce a convincing "tongue" and an "interpretation" of it on cue. Money back guarantee.

I DON'T think that "Phony Tongues"/etc. are particularly common in the majority of "Full Gospel" churches, but groups that say you HAVE to speak in tongues to be "saved" (Oneness Pentecostals) do place a HIGH "performance requirement" on the thing which almost HAS to result in folks "just doing it" in ignorance of the real thing - just to "join the club".

The OTHER thing that's "faked" in Charismatic and pentecostal churches often is the "Slain in the Spirit" thing - which IS a legitimate occurrence when GOD does it, but it's been converted into a cooperative "ritual" performed by a minister who overbalances the "slayee" so that they go down STIFF LEGGED into the arms of the catchers (for proper racking and stacking) and then the "coverers" can do the blanket thing for modesty. I don't PERSONALLY play that game, but many do.

Folks who are REALLY "slain" tend to go down like sacks of potatoes ("Catchers" HATE that when it happens - prevents 'em from doing their job).

[Leslie]

Amen Bob, amen.

People don't know what it means to be slain in the spirit these days. They fall over, someone catches them and it's over. My mother used to tell me how people would fall out and STAY out for HOURS some even DAYS. Back then no one caught you, so if you fell it had better be in the spirit or you were in for a headach.

[Trinity]

Concerning the gifts from God (Holy Spirit), I always have this great expectation for a strong sense of maturity, and kindness, during these manifestations.

When I see people acting less maturely than me, I always reject those fraudulent pranks, immediately. I mean, I would be very insecure if God has bad manners or a foolish conduct in the distribution of his gifts. And I believe that God is much more mature than me.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

I am pretty sure that they would not fall into a trance, shaking their bodies, crying and running around the benches, jumping, falling on their backs , shouting, if Queen Elizabeth II, or the President of the United States, were present in the crowd. Can you see now how they are behaving in God presence? Do you really believe that this circus is glorifying the majesty of God? How much perturbing this can be for little children that see their parents going mad like those charismatic, in a church, or during an evangelical crusade?

God is a gentle God and he would never play with your body as with a voodoo doll. I believe in a serious God, intelligent, sensible, and very mature. We are not toys between his hands.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Concerning the gifts from God (Holy Spirit), I always have this great expectation for a strong sense of maturity, and kindness, during these manifestations.

When I see people acting less maturely than me, I always reject those fraudulent pranks, immediately. I mean, I would be very insecure if God has bad manners or a foolish conduct in the distribution of his gifts. And I believe that God is much more mature than me.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

I am pretty sure that they would not fall into a trance, shaking their bodies, crying and running around the benches, jumping, falling on their backs , shouting, if Queen Elizabeth II, or the President of the United States, were present in the crowd. Can you see now how they are behaving in God presence? Do you really believe that this circus is glorifying the majesty of God? How much perturbing this can be for little children that see their parents going mad like those charismatic, in a church, or during an evangelical crusade?

God is a gentle God and he would never play with your body as with a voodoo doll. I believe in a serious God, intelligent, sensible, and very mature. We are not toys between his hands.

Trinity

This is your opinion of course.

Until you've actually felt what it's like having the power of the Holy Spirit completely overwhelm you, you shouldn't make broad statements. There's a reason they thought the Apostles were drunk on Pentecost you know.

[Bob Carabbio]

Then you'd be like Michal, scornfully looking down from her egotistical position of haughty uninvolvement at the KING OF ISRAEL dancing with ALL his might before God like a happy child - and DESPISING him for it. But David knew what was important - and what wasn't - at least THAT time.

News flash!!!!! Neither "Demonstrated JOY!!!!" nor "physical demonstration are foreign to true worship, y'all. And trying to maintain your "Pride of life" is ONE of the things that God was after in Job (Doing things in HIS OWN human strength was the other).

It's all a question of motivation -

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,


This is your opinion of course.

Until you've actually felt what it's like having the power of the Holy Spirit completely overwhelm you, you shouldn't make broad statements. There's a reason they thought the Apostles were drunk on Pentecost you know.

Thank you for respecting my opinion on this issue. I agree with you that all the pentecostals are not corresponding with my assessment. However, as I had mentioned before in an other post, there is many excess.

I believe into the graces that come from God but in a context implying the human dignity. The lack of maturity makes me very skeptical about the provenance of these gifts. I am also of the opinion that the majority of those manifestations are psychosomatic. Even, an infinite percentage can be demonic. For the Catholic exorcists, often demons speak in Latin.

Are you 100% certain that those people were drunk into that pentecostal day? Are you drunk every-time you speak in tongues? The impression from the foreigners and the reality are two different things. I think this was a distorted interpretation of the facts. They were not seeing, and they were not able to see what happened in the upper room. That was too small. They interpreted the noise like if those people were into a Party Time.

In my young time I was a lay preacher, a pastor and a bible college graduate from an important pentecostal denomination. I ceased to practice the glossolalia when I found a better spiritual path. However, this is me. There is no stereotype with God.

Trinity

[Trinity]

Then you'd be like Michal, scornfully looking down from her egotistical position of haughty uninvolvement at the KING OF ISRAEL dancing with ALL his might before God like a happy child - and DESPISING him for it. But David knew what was important - and what wasn't - at least THAT time.

News flash!!!!! Neither "Demonstrated JOY!!!!" nor "physical demonstration are foreign to true worship, y'all. And trying to maintain your "Pride of life" is ONE of the things that God was after in Job (Doing things in HIS OWN human strength was the other).

It's all a question of motivation -

I did not laugh. I find all those excess very pathetical. Also, my experience in the pentecostal fields showed me that some, who think that they have received these gifts, are also prideful of their privileged status. Sometimes I saw some persons who had become very ugly. Puffed by their pride.

Remember, if God can send angels, he can also send demons.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Maybe that's the difference between you and me Trinity, you practiced speaking in tongues, for me it's something that just happens naturally. It's not me that's speaking.

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,


Maybe that's the difference between you and me Trinity, you practiced speaking in tongues, for me it's something that just happens naturally. It's not me that's speaking.

I am sorry but it is you. This is a sound from your voice produced by your vocal cords. Your brain also gives the command and you are producing this noise. By faith and obedience you want to be convinced that this is a known language. When you have said that this is naturally, I believe you.

However, if at this moment, you find this helpful for your faith ,this is also good for me. I have no problem to see this as a support, for your faith. In addition, if you control your emotional state and do not search for an ecstasy, this is also good. Look for the little miracles in your daily life, this is also enthusiastic moments with God.

Be certain that I am respecting your beliefs, but this is not enough for me anymore. There is a better spiritual path that Paul has recommended to the Corinthians.

1Cor 12: 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

There is something that is superior to the gifts. The most excellent way. This is also a very serious spiritual matter and a very difficult path. The inner man is the playing field.

Be also certain that I see you as a person with a pleasant mind and also as an interesting person. This is why I invited you to be my friend here. :)

Trinity

[Bob Carabbio]

Why would laughing in joy before the Lord be "Pathetical".

No arguement that SOME folks who CLAIM to be spirit filled, don't show much overt evidence of it. But it's unwise to judge a Spiritual thing based on a judgemental at***ude about another.

[dave52_47]

[QUOTE]As far as ALL the gifts "not being needed" - on what basis wold you even THINK that?? Do people get sick? - then healings would be REALLY handy. Do people need Inspiration from God? "Word of Knowledge" will do the Job. DO folks need "Wisdom" - "Word of wisdom is right there. DO people and churches need Guidance? The prophetic word has always been valuable that way.

We've already talked about "Discernation - how about "miracles" makes NO SENSE to say we don't need them - my father in law was headed toward certain death in an out of control semi in an icy road - and Jesus came through the windshield, rolled him up and carried him out of the truck and set him down on the road. That's where the Maine State troopers found him - unscratched, and his truck all smashed against a bridge abutment. THAT "Miracle" was downright handy. And you DON'T think the giftings come in REALLY effectively in missionary work.

Frankly it's just pure foolishness to believe that they aren't JUST as important in 2008 as they were in 60 A.D. And they STILL serve EXACTLY the same purposes NOW as they did then. They CONFIRM the Word, and point folks to Jesus.

Bob,
I wrote about this in an article about the Word of Faith movement for my website a short time ago and I am going to copy/paste it here so I don't have to rewrite it--These are my own words:

"If these gifts have ceased, and there are some very strong arguments (as we will see) that they have--then what is the source of these manifestations? Let’s take a look at the case for cessation of the miracle (sign) gifts and the foundational gifts.

The Foundational gifts would be those of Apostle and Prophet and the Sign gifts would be those of miracles, healing, and tongues. The argument for cessation of these gifts is based on the lack of necessity for them once the New Testament (written Word) was completed and the Apostolic age ended; and in the case of one of the gifts it would cease on it‘s own. The passage used to support this is I Cor. 13:8-10 ”Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.”

In this passage Prophecy represents the foundational gifts, and (word of) knowledge represents the sign (miraculous) gifts, where the verb katargeo (katargew) is used in both instances, and means literally “to bring to an end” (9), or as the NASB has it; “done away”. Paul uses a different word pausontai (pausontai) to characterize the cessation of the gift of tongues. This word means “to cease of their own accord”.(10) As to when the foundational and miraculous gifts would cease to operate in the church, the end of the passage in vs. 10 tells us that it would be “when the perfect is come” and then the “partial will be done away” (‘brought to an end’).

There are two primary interpretations of to telion (to telion). One is that it means “that which is perfect”, which would refer to Christ’s return, and the second is “that which is complete)”, which would refer to the completion of the New Testament. Context doesn’t provide a reference point for “Christ” being the antecedent of “that”, however, there is scriptural precedence for the interpretation of “that which is complete (perfect)” referring to other than Christ. In James 1:25 we have telion translated as “perfect” in reference to the law: “But one who looks intently at the perfect law,”. The completion of God’s Written Word would certainly hold up to being referred to as “that which is perfect” as well as the Law does in James. The context of I Cor. 13:8-10 would easily allow for such exegesis.

Paul’s emphasis in I Cor. 13 is that none of these things mean anything if not accompanied by love, and in the preceding chapter and following chapter he elaborates on the proper use of spiritual gifts in the church. He gives specific instructions for the orderly use of these gifts and his greatest concern was that anyone coming into the church would see confusion and disorganization and turn away and want no parts of it. He states “for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints” (I Cor. 14:33), and in verse 40 that “all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.” He was also concerned that people were not ministering to each other and building up the body in unity, but only building themselves up individually with the selfish abuse of the gifts given to them by the Holy Spirit.

That these gifts would cease the original language clearly supports, and the purpose of these gifts having been fulfilled in the Apostolic age justifies the conclusion that these gifts have indeed ceased in the church. Even early church history attests to the fact that the gift of tongues diminished in use to the point that “ceasing of it’s own accord” was well under way even before the close of the Apostolic age."

This is the position that I hold after much research into the subject. I believe it's scriptural. This doesn't say that miracles and healing are not needed or do not occur today, but God can heal without "faith healers".

Footnotes:
(9) Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker (1979). A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

(10) Robertson, Archibald Thomas (1931). Word Pictures in the New Testament IV, Epistles of Paul. Grand Rapids: Baker.

Dave

[Trinity]

Why would laughing in joy before the Lord be "Pathetical". No arguement that SOME folks who CLAIM to be spirit filled, don't show much overt evidence of it. But it's unwise to judge a Spiritual thing based on a judgemental at***ude about another.

Hello Bob,

http://www.thebestlinks.com/images/thumb/9/99/150px-Franz_Anton_Mesmer.jpg
Franz Anton Mesmer

Please do some research about this man or about the mesmerism.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Hello Leslie,



I am sorry but it is you. This is a sound from your voice produced by your vocal cords. Your brain also gives the command and you are producing this noise. By faith and obedience you want to be convinced that this is a known language. When you have said that this is naturally, I believe you.

However, if at this moment, you find this helpful for your faith ,this is also good for me. I have no problem to see this as a support, for your faith. In addition, if you control your emotional state and do not search for an ecstasy, this is also good. Look for the little miracles in your daily life, this is also enthusiastic moments with God.

Be certain that I am respecting your beliefs, but this is not enough for me anymore. There is a better spiritual path that Paul has recommended to the Corinthians.

1Cor 12: 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

There is something that is superior to the gifts. The most excellent way. This is also a very serious spiritual matter and a very difficult path. The inner man is the playing field.

Be also certain that I see you as a person with a pleasant mind and also as an interesting person. This is why I invited you to be my friend here. :)

Trinity

I don't believe it's a known language, I believe it's an unknown tongue.

Paul also said "Desire earnestly the best gifts." and "forbid not to speak with tongues"

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,


I don't believe it's a known language, I believe it's an unknown tongue.

Ok for an unknown language. However, this language should have his syntax and own linguistic rules. What would be the opinion of linguistic professionals on this? You know that the glossolalia was tested many times.

Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practised by Christians and the followers of other religions.(Goodman, Felicitas D., Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. University of Chicago Press, 1972)

Goodman also concludes that glossolalia "is, actually, a learned behavior, learned either unawarely or, sometimes consciously."

John P. Kildahl (The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues) concludes that "from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired glossolalic utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired." In fact, glossolalia is a "human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior." (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Spittler, P. 340).

One of the early investigations was made in the early 1960's by Eugene A. Nida. He provided a detailed list of reasons why glossolalia cannot be human language. Another early study, that of W.A. Wolfram in the year 1966, also concluded that glossolalia lacks the basic elements of human language as a system of coherent communication.

In a massive study of glossolalia from a linguistic perspective by Professor William J. Samarin of the University of Toronto's Department of Linguistics published after more than a decade of careful research, he rejected the view that glossolalia is xenoglossia, i.e. some foreign language that could be understood by another person who knew that language. Samarin concluded that glossolalia is a "pseudo-language." He defined glossolalia as "unintelligible babbling speech that exhibits superficial phonological similarity to language, without having consistent syntagmatic structure and that is not systematically derived from or related to known language." (William J. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, ed. Dell Haymes, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1972 pgs. 121-130)

An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia’’ (George J. Jennings, Journal of the American Science Affiliation, March 1968), the author identifies religious glossolalia in non-Christian religions of the world including the ancient religions of North America, South America, Australia, the Sudan, the west coast of Africa, Ethiopia, Borneo, Siberia, Greenland, and Tibet.

The September 1968 issue of the Journal of the American Science Affliation states:

"Several language studies, including our own, suggest that glossolalists develop their speech from ill-formed structure to "practiced" and "polished" glossolalic speech. Thus the quality of glossolalia depends to some extent on the stage of development of glossolalia."

Moreover, the unknown tongue bears a consistent relationship to the native tongue of the glossolaliac. An informal review amongst linguist turned up the following general finding:

Basically, the finding was that the native language of the speaker was a pretty good predictor of the kinds of sounds that would occur in glossolalia; one general pattern was that sounds perceived as generally marking "foreign" speech (whatever that may mean) would occur, while sounds perceived as typical of the native language would not. Thus, for American English speakers, / r / would be rendered as the alveolar trill, never as the American retroflex; on the other hand, these speakers would not include the low front vowel in their glossolalia, / æ /, because that's perceived as a typically "American" sound for some reason. On the other hand, truly exotic sounds--those not typical of the native language, but that don't happen to be familiar to speakers of the language--would tend not to occur: American English speakers don't produce clicks in their glossolalia.

And yes, the inventory of sounds is very simple and the sequence is repe***ive.

The repe***ive quality and reduced scope of glossolalia certainly tells against it being language. The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language (ed. David Crystal) notes:

"The utterance patterns are quite unlike ordinary language: the sounds are simpler and more repe***ive; there are few predictable structural units; and there is no systematic word or sentence meaning. When asked, glossolalists are usually unable to repeat their utterances exactly, or give an account of their meaning."

It should be noted also that those who claim to be inspired to interpret speech in tongues do not give remotely consistent results, and do not interpret the same speech the same way twice.

Professor William Samarin, a linguist at the University of Toronto, conducted an extensive study of glossolalia worldwide, and concluded:

"Glossolalia consists of strings of meaningless syllables made up of sounds taken from those familiar to the speaker and put together more or less haphazardly. The speaker controls the rhythm, volume, speed and inflection of his speech so that the sounds emerge as pseudolanguage in the form of words and sentences.

Glossolalia is language-like because the speaker unconsciously wants it to be language-like. Yet in spite of superficial similarities, glossolalia fundamentally is not language."

Sources:
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Glossolalia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia


Paul also said "Desire earnestly the best gifts." and "forbid not to speak with tongues."

I think we can desire any grace that comes from God, unless we know that we are not the owner of those graces.

Because of the ambiguity surrounding this topic, I decided to stay away from this phenomenon.

In fact, it has been found that the "speaking in tongues" practiced in Christian churches and by individual Christians is identical to the chanting language of those who practice voodoo on the darkest continents of this world .

Those who speak in tongues are also becoming involved in "holy laughter" - laughing uncontrollably, falling down on the ground, rolling around, having seizure-like activity, being struck dumb, or being "slain in the spirit."

Source:
http://www.meta-religion.com/Linguistics/Glossolalia/contemporary_linguistic_study.htm

Trinity

[Trinity]

Leslie,

I have my preferences and I completely agree that you have also your preferences . If for you, the marvelous is important, I would not contradict your choice. I am not aspiring to the charismata but I aspire to have more courage, to be fearless, to have more fairness, to be morally strong, to the serenity of my mind, and for the wisdom in my heart. I am very concerned by the beauty of my soul and my inner man. The inner transformation of my being is for me more attractive.

"First keep the peace within yourself, then you can also bring peace to others."
-- Thomas a Kempis (1380-1471) Author of "The Imitation of Christ".

Trinity

[Leslie]

I kinda doubt that you ever really had the gift of tongues then if you just up and decieded that you didn't want it anymore. Either that or it was a shallow experience if science can so easily persuade you away from the gifts of God.

[sayso]

The Spiritual Gift of..
Is this for today or has it ceased? Ihave an opinion on this, but am curious to know what others may think. I'm not referring to the general use of 'discernment' as in differentiating between two..whatevers.

Dave

Dave I have been doing a little studying myself on the "gifts of the Spirit" and here is what I found on the "gift of discernment".

Discerning of Spirits is a revelation gift that allows one to recognize what is of God verses the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Discerning of spirits is the supernatural ability given by the Holy Spirit to perceive the source of a spiritual manifestation and determine whether it is of God (Acts 10:30-35), of the devil (Acts 16:16-18), of man (Acts 8:18-23), or of the world. It is not mind reading, psychic phenomena, or the ability to criticize and find fault.

By the power of the Holy Spirit; He bears witness with our spirit when something is or is not of God. It is a gift which protects and guards your Christian life.

Three ways to test a spirit are:

1 By observing what a person does. In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus explains that false prophets are known by their fruit - by their conduct and actions.

2 By observing whether or not a person exalts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as Lord and Saviour (I Corinthians 12:3).

3 By listening to what a person says (I John 4:1-3). Does their confession line up with the truth of God's Word?

[Trinity]

I kinda doubt that you ever really had the gift of tongues then if you just up and decieded that you didn't want it anymore. Either that or it was a shallow experience if science can so easily persuade you away from the gifts of God.

No offense intended. Just try to not speak in tongues for a week, and see how this is easy. It is just a question of free will.

Trinity

[Leslie]

No offense intended. Just try to not speak in tongues for a week, and see how this is easy. It is just a question of free will.

Trinity

Paul said that it was his will that all would speak with tongues. He said prophesy was better of course, but I think he wanted all believers to have the experience that he had and the intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit. When the Spirit prays or speaks through you, it is a closer relationship than can ever be achieved through study or meditation.

So I could stop if I wanted to, sure. The question is, is it right for me to reject the gift that has been given unto me? I will continue to allow his Spirit to speak and use me in whatever way he wishes. I am nothing more than a vessel and a mouthpiece after all.

[Trinity]

Good Sunday Leslie,


Paul said that it was his will that all would speak with tongues. He said prophesy was better of course, but I think he wanted all believers to have the experience that he had and the intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit. When the Spirit prays or speaks through you, it is a closer relationship than can ever be achieved through study or meditation.

Effectively, Paul had said this. However, he also mentioned that he preferred a good usage of the reason than any catharsis experience.

Concerning the meditation, I want to suggest you a good book.

The Good Heart: A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus
by Dalai Lama, Robert Kiely, Laurence Freeman, Geshe Thupten Jinpa

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HZS1YR4FL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Heart-Buddhist-Perspective-Teachings/dp/0861711386/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226259473&sr=8-1

I have read the book in the beginning of summer and I had enjoyed it very much.


So I could stop if I wanted to, sure. The question is, is it right for me to reject the gift that has been given unto me? I will continue to allow his Spirit to speak and use me in whatever way he wishes. I am nothing more than a vessel and a mouthpiece after all.

I mentioned before that if for now this is good for your faith, I would have no objection. There is many supports for the faith.

Trinity

[Leslie]

Why would I take spiritual advice from a Pagan?

[Trinity]

Hi Leslie,


Why would I take spiritual advice from a Pagan?

Test the fruit first and be free to judge it after. :)

Trinity

[dave52_47]

Dave I have been doing a little studying myself on the "gifts of the Spirit" and here is what I found on the "gift of discernment".

Discerning of Spirits is a revelation gift that allows one to recognize what is of God verses the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Discerning of spirits is the supernatural ability given by the Holy Spirit to perceive the source of a spiritual manifestation and determine whether it is of God (Acts 10:30-35), of the devil (Acts 16:16-18), of man (Acts 8:18-23), or of the world. It is not mind reading, psychic phenomena, or the ability to criticize and find fault.

By the power of the Holy Spirit; He bears witness with our spirit when something is or is not of God. It is a gift which protects and guards your Christian life.

Three ways to test a spirit are:

1 By observing what a person does. In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus explains that false prophets are known by their fruit - by their conduct and actions.

2 By observing whether or not a person exalts Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as Lord and Saviour (I Corinthians 12:3).

3 By listening to what a person says (I John 4:1-3). Does their confession line up with the truth of God's Word?

Sayso,
Thanks for your reply. I used this in a bible study recently and I thought it was a good description of the gift of discernment:

GREEK : (diakrisiv) diakrisis-discerning - a distinguishing, discerning clearly, discriminating.
N.T. (Spiritual Gift) : Distinguishing of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10)--The ability to clearly discern the spirit of truth and the spirit of error (cf. 1 John 4:6). With this gift, one can distinguish reality versus counterfeits, the divine versus the demonic, true versus false teaching, and in some cases, spiritual versus carnal motives. (Bible.org- def. by: Kenneth Boa Th.M.; Ph.D.; D.Phil).

Pretty much what you said.

Dave

[dave52_47]

Good Sunday Leslie,



Effectively, Paul had said this. However, he also mentioned that he preferred a good usage of the reason than any catharsis experience.

Concerning the meditation, I want to suggest you a good book.

The Good Heart: A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus
by Dalai Lama, Robert Kiely, Laurence Freeman, Geshe Thupten Jinpa

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HZS1YR4FL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Heart-Buddhist-Perspective-Teachings/dp/0861711386/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226259473&sr=8-1

I have read the book in the beginning of summer and I had enjoyed it very much.



I mentioned before that if for now this is good for your faith, I would have no objection. There is many supports for the faith.

Trinity

Trinity,
I thought that according to your Bio on your website that you were a "Christian scholar" of some sort with your theological background. I see that you are promoting Buddhism instead. Why would anyone who is a Christian want to read the Dalai Lama's views on Jesus interpreted through his grid of Buddhism? We're only going to get some sort of a hybrid of "Christian Buddhism" or everything Jesus said reinterpreted within a Buddhistic framework. Christian (biblical-i.e.; with full engagement of the thinking processes) meditation is far superior to the self-centered, mind-altering eastern methods.

Dave

[Leslie]

Honestly, I'de rather take advice from Pope Benedict XVI over the Dalai Lama when it comes to Christianity.

[Trinity]

I thought that according to your Bio on your website that you were a "Christian scholar" of some sort with your theological background.

I qualify myself more as an erudite than a scholar. There is also days where I see myself as an ********. However, I believe in God. If I would not have believed in Jesus, honestly, I would have been a buddhist.


I see that you are promoting Buddhism instead.

Not really. I have a free mind. I have books about anything. Jewish books, Buddhist books, on Catholicism, on Protestantism, from the Greek orthodoxy, Islam, atheism, numerous scholars, etc.

However, I always try to keep in my mind that it is preferable to have a beautiful mind than a filled mind. This is not always an easy task.


Why would anyone who is a Christian want to read the Dalai Lama's views on Jesus interpreted through his grid of Buddhism?

Well, to see if he really knows about what he is talking about. :)


We're only going to get some sort of a hybrid of "Christian Buddhism" or everything Jesus said reinterpreted within a Buddhistic framework. Christian (biblical-i.e.; with full engagement of the thinking processes) meditation is far superior to the self-centered, mind-altering eastern methods.

Buddhism has nothing to say about God, but a lot about living (the Buddha, voluntary let this question open and unanswered). Perhaps you do not know this but some sayings of Jesus was said by the the Buddha before Jesus came in this world.

Trinity

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,


Honestly, I'de rather take advice from Pope Benedict XVI over the Dalai Lama when it comes to Christianity.

I respect your opinion and I agree that you could be more comfortable with Benedict XVI.

This man is not against the Christians. Buddhists do not want to convert christians. On this they are like Jews. They do not want to have you in their ranks. :)

Trinity

[dave52_47]

Perhaps you do not know this but some sayings of Jesus was said by the the Buddha before Jesus came in this world.

Could you be more specific about these quotes? Please cite some sources or reproduce the 'sayings' you refer to. Thank you.

Dave

[Trinity]

Hello Dave,


dave52_47: Could you be more specific about these quotes? Please cite some sources or reproduce the 'sayings' you refer to. Thank you.

Here is an example.

Buddhism:

"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31

Buddhism has preceded Christianity by five centuries.

Trinity

[sayso]

"Perhaps you do not know this but some sayings of Jesus was said by the the Buddha before Jesus came in this world."
Hi Trinity,

Jesus has always existed. Buddha has not.

"Buddhism has preceded Christianity by five centuries." Ah, but it didn't precede Jesus. He was in the beginning with God. He has no beginning and He has no end.

All relligions except Christianity are about man's ability to improve himself through his own efforts to meet God's standards. Christianity is about God's ability to make man pure and holy through God's own sacrifice.

Although Buddha's ideals may be peaceful and make sense they cannot regenerate man's sinful nature, only God through the blood of Jesus Christ can break the curse.

[Trinity]

Hello sayso,


Jesus has always existed. Buddha has not. Ah, but it didn't precede Jesus. He was in the beginning with God. He has no beginning and He has no end.

I did not say otherwise. I only say that Buddha had teached the same ethical virtue (post #46), five centuries, before Jesus came in flesh. Nothing more and nothing less. :)

Trinity

[Leslie]

Hello Dave,



Here is an example.

Buddhism:

"...a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?" Samyutta NIkaya v. 353

"Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31

Buddhism has preceded Christianity by five centuries.

Trinity

And Moses and the Prophets taught that long before Buddah came around.

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,


And Moses and the Prophets taught that long before Buddah came around.

You are correct. Moses taught that long before Buddha came around. And the prophets have exhorted the Israelites at the practice of the justice and peace for all.

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Leviticus 19.18

However, the Egyptians taught it before Moses. :)

"He sought for others the good he desired for himself. Let him pass."
Egyptian Book of the Dead (1580-1350 BCE).

"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do."
Ancient Egyptian, The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE.

Furthermore, into the American continent, the Shawnees Indians taught it before they had any contact with the christians.

"Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not him that you injure, you injure yourself. But do good to him, therefore add to his days of happiness as you add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor, for it is not him that you wrong, you wrong yourself. But love him, for Moneto loves him also as he loves you."
The Choctaw, Cherokee, Chickasaw and the Creek also had this rule.

Trinity

[Bob Carabbio]

Yup - that was pretty much the problem Paul was addressing in 1 Cor. Nothing much has changed in 2000 years, has it??

[Leslie]

Hello Leslie,



You are correct. Moses taught that long before Buddha came around. And the prophets have exhorted the Israelites at the practice of the justice and peace for all.

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Leviticus 19.18

However, the Egyptians taught it before Moses. :)

"He sought for others the good he desired for himself. Let him pass."
Egyptian Book of the Dead (1580-1350 BCE).

"Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do."
Ancient Egyptian, The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to 1970 to 1640 BCE.

Furthermore, into the American continent, the Shawnees Indians taught it before they had any contact with the christians.

"Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not him that you injure, you injure yourself. But do good to him, therefore add to his days of happiness as you add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor, for it is not him that you wrong, you wrong yourself. But love him, for Moneto loves him also as he loves you."
The Choctaw, Cherokee, Chickasaw and the Creek also had this rule.

Trinity

That just goes to show you that those cultures had a concience, and they probably got those sayings from their ancestors, who go back to Adam and Eve, who probably learned it from God himself.

That of course, doesn't mean they went to heaven, being pagans and heathens of course.

[Trinity]

Good Sunday Leslie.


That just goes to show you that those cultures had a concience, and they probably got those sayings from their ancestors, who go back to Adam and Eve, who probably learned it from God himself.

That of course, doesn't mean they went to heaven, being pagans and heathens of course.

You make a good point here. A man is a man everywhere and we all have the capacity for becoming a better man, a better citizen, or a peacemaker among our neighbors, our town, nation and finally the world.

Remember how Jesus was inspired and how he enjoyed his chat with the Roman pagan centurion in the Gospel.

Trinity

[dave52_47]

Good Sunday Leslie.



You make a good point here. A man is a man everywhere and we all have the capacity for becoming a better man, a better citizen, or a peacemaker among our neighbors, our town, nation and finally the world.

Remember how Jesus was inspired and how he enjoyed his chat with the Roman pagan centurion in the Gospel.

Trinity

Trinity,
What do you feel was the main point of Jesus' overall ministry?

[Trinity]

Good Sunday Dave,


Trinity,
What do you feel was the main point of Jesus' overall ministry?

He came to reconcile any dysfunctional creature with his creator and to solve all the problems caused by any selfish and prideful behavioral life of any human being. To transform the bad heart (with the help of the good heart) and the twisted mind by renewing everything, any thing that is enslaving us. He is freeing the soul. Salvation is the end of his work, and not something into the beginning. We have to stay connected if we want to be in a salvation state and to receive his life. This can be possible because he was loyal until his death. Because of his merit a grace is done.

The relationship between the human beings was also something that had a very high importance for him. That is also touching our behavior and the way we see the world. Our relationships with the others is at stake. This is so often forgotten.

Trinity
PS: To avoid any doubt or confusion, Jesus is Lord. :)

[Leslie]

Jesus is Lord, amen.

[Bob Carabbio]

Yup - that would be the standard cessationist teaching on the subject. I've got it all in my Walvoord and Zuck "Bible Knowledge Commentary" from the Dallas Seminary (Bible Church). They're a cessationist group also.

But of course you DO realize that your "categories of gifts are your own invention and not found in the Word, and your ASSUMPTION that the Bible is "that perfect" has some SERIOUS holes in it since when "That perfect" comes we will KNOW even as we are known, and there'll be no "looking through the glass darkly" - which the AUTHOR of much of "that perfect" says that HE DOES.

SO how does an author, who only knows partially (and knows it) produce a work that is perfect??

Naturally God can and does "heal" without our help. Is it your position that the folks who minister healings are NOT doing it by The Power of God (many think that)?? Or is it (as the media has proclaimed) all a total fake, and the folks that say they have been/ARE healed (like my Pastor and his wife) are either liars, or totally delusional???

[dave52_47]

Yup - that would be the standard cessationist teaching on the subject. I've got it all in my Walvoord and Zuck "Bible Knowledge Commentary" from the Dallas Seminary (Bible Church). They're a cessationist group also.

But of course you DO realize that your "categories of gifts are your own invention and not found in the Word, and your ASSUMPTION that the Bible is "that perfect" has some SERIOUS holes in it since when "That perfect" comes we will KNOW even as we are known, and there'll be no "looking through the glass darkly" - which the AUTHOR of much of "that perfect" says that HE DOES.

Bob,
Actually the 'standard cessationist teaching' does not allow for the possibility of God using these gifts today if He so desires, as you can see that I have allowed for and explained. There are more than just two points of view on the cessation of gifts. Also I can't take credit for 'inventing' the categories of gifts. If you just want to lump all of them together that would serve your purposes best. However, I find it easier to understand the gifts when they are in categories. Incidentally there is no one standard "number" of gifts or categories of gifts. I have seen as few as 7 and as many as 21, and some scholars have suggested that "all" of the gifts that are distributed by the Holy Spirit might not be listed in Scripture.

Concerning "assumptions". I gave definitions with footnotes for the sources for these terms. You can argue with them. They are not my definitions. The burden of proof is on you to disqualify their definitions as "assumptions". Anyway if you read what I said I gave 2 possibilities and a reference to James where the word "perfect" refers to the law. So where are these "SERIOUS holes" that you find?


SO how does an author, who only knows partially (and knows it) produce a work that is perfect??

All of the authors of the Books of the Bible produced a 'perfect work'-which is the completed Scripture in the originals produced by by God Himself through them.



Naturally God can and does "heal" without our help. Is it your position that the folks who minister healings are NOT doing it by The Power of God (many think that)?? Or is it (as the media has proclaimed) all a total fake, and the folks that say they have been/ARE healed (like my Pastor and his wife) are either liars, or totally delusional???

I am saying that the abuse of these gifts is prevalent in the Church today and that does not honor God-only the person. I have stated that God still heals-I just have my doubts about much of what I see coming from "faith healers". Are you saying that there are no fakes? Even Leslie admitted that "tongues" can be faked.

Dave

[Bob Carabbio]

ANY of the "utterance gifts including tongues can be and ARE "Faked" - that's intrinsic, of course. ANd of course the "Proof of the fruit" of one who ministers healing - is whether there WAS a Healing.

I have PERSONALLY seen any number of folks (including myself) prayed for and getting - NOTHING!!!! And I have seen folks who were healed miraculously by God when the SAME ministers prayed over 'em. I've been pentecostal for 45+ years now, and Charismatic since '73 and there isn't much I HAVEN'T seen.

HEY!! If I wanted to, I could rip off a prophesy that would pass any test you'd want to give it - unless you manifested the gift of discerning of spirits. Anybody who preaches or teaches in Church could with a little practice.

"Miracles" and "Healings" are a good deal more difficult to fake. SO of course the cessationist, or De Facto-Cessationist position is to simply deny that they ever happened (VERY common). I'll tell you of the fellow in Lewisville, TX who was instantly healed of crippling foot problems when he touched his TV when Benny told him to. I know him personally - he's even been on Benny's TV show. Are you prepared to "believe" ANYTHING that I just told you about him???

Nobody's silly enough to say there are "no fakes", and I'd add the category of folks who Sincerely believe what they're doing, but are "sincerely wrong" - which is probably MUCH more prevalent than outright fakes (like Marjoe who never took any of it seriously).

And the context of 1 Cor 12 (which isn't really about giftings anyway, but about unity in diversity) makes it pretty clear that the list isn't "Exhaustive", but rather a compilation of "Categories" rather than a listing of specific giftings. Supernatural strength as exhibited by Samson, and David, isn't listed - but could fall under the CATEGORY of "miracles". And Animals speaking in tongues isn't specifically mentioned either even though there's a record of it occurring. "Gifts of Healings" is plural - indicating a variety of 'em. IN all likelyhood there are HUNDREDS of specific giftings to meet whatever need arises.

Oh, and the Bible IS NOT and NEVER WAS "that perfect" unless you're prepared to claim that you KNOW even as you ARE KNOWN, and that you DO NOT see, even now, through the glass darkly. I DOUBT that you're that delusional, y'all.

[Trinity]

I believe into the healing miracles but only for miracles that are under investigation by the medical corps or from an accredited and competent medical association. The vast majority of these pseudo miracles who were investigated were a fraudulence. Many people died because they rejected their medications or medical treatments for their faith.

Tele-evangelists who spend millions of dollars for their luxury cars and houses are fraudulent (sometimes for their private plane). They are living like sheiks with the money of the poor. Scandalous.

Trinity

[Bob Carabbio]

Yup and you've got the networks here in the U.S. right on your side. Ther'es NEVER been a case where prayer EVER had any effect on a physical condition in all of recorded history!!!!

AH well. since there probably never will be a "properly accredited" healing, you're safe in your unbelief, don'cha know.

It's known as "De-facto cessationism" you "believe it", but you NEVER expect to actually see it.

[Trinity]

AH well. since there probably never will be a "properly accredited" healing, you're safe in your unbelief, don'cha know.

Sorry but there is authentic miracles. They are rare but they exist. What we see most of the time are forgeries. Fabricated to promote the tele-evangelists marketing and show-business.

Trinity

[Bob Carabbio]

O.K. present an "authentic" one n/p

[Trinity]

O.K. present an "authentic" one n/p

Sister Marie Simon-Pierre
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1547226/Nun-tells-of-her-'miracle'-cure-by-John-Paul-II.html

Nicola Grippo
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/nov/07pope.htm

Trinity

[Bob Carabbio]

And I would know that these aren't "Forgeries" because???

Since it's the canonization of a popular Catholic figure at stake, and there MUST BE two "Miracles" that prove he has the "horsepower" to arm-twist Father on our behalf, you DO realize that there's considerable "vested interest" in producing "miracles" to order, so that 'ol JP2 can be canonized expeditiously (striking while the iron is hot).

Of course you KNEW that was coming, y'all.

Personally, I have no reason to believe that the "Healings" you cite didn't occur as they were reported - we see the same sorts of things all the time also. - but then I'm not a "doubter" as you are.

[Trinity]

And I would know that these aren't "Forgeries" because???

Because physicians and medical specialists are involved (science) in the file. The Church also waits a period of two years to see if the person is cured permanently.

Trinity

[Mary T]

Between "Charisma" - and "Gifts of the Spirit" - seems a bit redundant.

IN the '70s "Charisma", and "Charismatic" were terms which appeared to be intended primarily to differentiate between folks involved the "Charismatic outpouring" of '66-78, and the Old-Line Full Gospel churches that developed from the "Pentecostal revival" of 1900 - 1917.

Since the gap between the Historic pentecostals and the Charismatics has pretty much gone away in these days of cross-pollination, the differentiation seems unnecessary.

Bob??? hi its the former poster known as carmmary.... good to see you here!

[Heart2Heart]

Thank you Leslie. I take that as a "yes" that you do believe that all gifts, including discernment (distinguishing) of spirits, are being distributed today.

Alot of Christians believe that certain gifts have ceased at the end of the Apostoloc era or the completion of the New Testament, others that none have ceased and all are still in use, and still others believe that certain gifts have ceased but they wouldn't ever put limits on God by saying that He can never reintroduce those gifts whenever He wants to. That was the reason for my question. Alot of people have very stong opinions concerning Spitiual Gifts and I am interested primarily in the gift I cited and looking for Biblical support for any of these views pertaining to that particular gift, which of course would apply to all gifts said to have ceased.

Dave

I am a non-cessationist, because I believe God does not change. God did many miracles in the past, why would God change His mind about not doing anymore miracles in the present?

Miracles done by God are permanent unlike many of the fake healers.

Blessings....

[Bob Carabbio]

HEY!!! A familiar face - how are you doing?? Been here myself since last October - a much quieter place fer sure. Good to drop in here and relax a bit. I used to be an angel when I first joined Carm, but the backbiters ate my wings off.

Oh well.

You might want to try:

http://bibleforums.org/forum/

also - it seems to be a more "relational" and less "technical/theological" sort of place.

[sayso]

Concerning the gifts from God (Holy Spirit), I always have this great expectation for a strong sense of maturity, and kindness, during these manifestations.

When I see people acting less maturely than me, I always reject those fraudulent pranks, immediately. I mean, I would be very insecure if God has bad manners or a foolish conduct in the distribution of his gifts. And I believe that God is much more mature than me.

Trinity, you can't mean by this that you are the standard we are to judge by can you? How you judge or discern whether or not something is of God is by how it makes you feel? While it is true that through the Holy Spirit we must rely on discernment, we should also rely on what scripture(God's word) says.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

I am pretty sure that they would not fall into a trance, shaking their bodies, crying and running around the benches, jumping, falling on their backs , shouting, if Queen Elizabeth II, or the President of the United States, were present in the crowd. Can you see now how they are behaving in God presence? Do you really believe that this circus is glorifying the majesty of God? How much perturbing this can be for little children that see their parents going mad like those charismatic, in a church, or during an evangelical crusade?


If you look at the rest of the verses along with the one which you posted you can see that Paul is not by any means indicating that if you are mature that these gifts of the Holy Spirit will not happen.

20Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

21In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.



22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.



23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?



24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;



25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.



26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification.




God is a gentle God and he would never play with your body as with a voodoo doll. I believe in a serious God, intelligent, sensible, and very mature. We are not toys between his hands.

Trinity

I find it interesting Trinity that while you are accepting and in agreement with unbelievers statements who deny Jesus Christ as being The Way, The Truth, and the Life, you can't tolerate or give the same level of acceptance to those who believe and accept the gifts of The Holy Spirit, who are actually in Christ Jesus.:confused:

[Norrin Radd]

On the matter of discerning/distinguishing of spirits: Those who claim with certainty that it means some particular thing -- usually something along the line of being able to "sense" demons and/or angels -- have NO solid Scriptural basis for the claim. The expression is used only one time in Scripture, in 1 Cor. 12. It is nowhere specifically defined. The closest thing to a possible definition is 1 Cor. 14:29, where a cognate of the word is used in regard to evaluating alleged prophetic utterances. Since forms of the Greek word for prophecy and forms of the Greek word for judge/discern/distinguish are paired in both 12:10 and 14:29 in a way similar to the way "tongues" and "interpretation of tongues" are paired in 12:10 and 14:27, it seems reasonable to understand "discerning of spirits" in that light; that is, its primary meaning is probably the Spiritual endowment to "test" alleged prophetic utterances to see whether they be from God.


On the matter of "maturity" in worship and in relation to supernatural gifts: It is worth noting that the church at Corinth was notoriously carnal and immature, and yet they excelled in manifestations of the Spirit. Paul never even hinted that the abilities they displayed were not genuine, even though he chided them for the WAYS in which they practiced them.

It's also worth noting that both NT and OT picture worship gatherings as being noisy, emotional, and celebratory at least as often as somberly reverent.


On the matter of whether or not tongues are "necessary" for salvation, or as evidence of salvation: No -- But to my own discomfort, I have to say that I *can* see a kernel of legitimacy to the idea. Paul and John both repeatedly and explicitly note that the defining characteristic of Xians is the presence of the Spirit. Luke makes a similar point, AND, since one of his particular theological emphases is the coming of the "prophetic" Spirit, for him the presence of the Spirit is evidenced by inspired utterance -- mainly tongues or prophecy.


On the matter of "cessationism": I am frankly at a loss to understand how anyone can find 1 Cor. 13 to support the idea that the supernatural gifts ended at the close of the First Century, or at the death of the last Apostle, or with the completing of Scripture, or any such thing. Nothing in the text suggests that. The "personal" nature of the language suggests it refers to the coming of some "perfect" PERSON -- just as the related but more explicit language of Eph. 4 does. However, in saying this, I am led to another somewhat uncomfortable conclusion -- ALL the gifts, including apostles and prophets, will (or at least should) remain among us until the return of the Lord.


On the matter of the gifts being "unimportant" compared to salvation: True, but only partially. Paul repeatedly explicitly linked his preaching with "signs and wonders," "power," "demonstrations of the Spirit and power," etc. Jesus did likewise in most of the accounts of His commissioning preachers to spread His word. To ignore the preaching of the present-day operation of the supernatural is to be just as unfaithful to the Word as it is to overemphasize "signs and wonders."


On the matter of the opinions of "linguistic experts" in regard to "tongues": In the first place, I'm fairly confident that with a bit of Googling, I could find "experts" with "research" showing that Pentecostal-Charismatic tongues *are* legitimate. But the more important point is, WHO CARES? It is an a priori assumption that tongues MUST follow the established rules of human languages. But there is NO Biblical account of tongues being directed "to" people, and there is explicit Biblical testimony that "he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God"; how do we know that a celestial language must follow the same rules as an earthly language?


On the matter of "proper" public implementation of tongues -- If we take Paul's "rules" in 1 Cor. 14 to be absolute and universal, then *all* of the occurrences of tongues in Acts were out of order. Since nothing in the context indicates the Apostles believed them to be out of order, we should assume that it can be fine for many or all of the members to simultaneously pray or praise or sing in tongues, with or without interpretation. But the leadership should also be cognizant of the possibility of unbelievers or "unlearned" being confused by the practice, and should impose rules like those in 1 Cor. in cases where strife and disorder tend to arise.

[Michael]

I happened on this forum while doing a bit of research. After reading an incredible amount of opinionated drivel, spoken with the voice of authority, I decided I would scribe a few words for those who would listen.

Many of the "gifts" which are being discussed in this thread are completely misunderstood by most, and their true purposes are not in the bible, or any other book, for very good reason.

We have arrived at a time when great turmoil is at our doorstep. This world is about to experience an unprecedented battle.

The physical battle will be globally devastating, as weapons which have been developed and held-back WILL be unleashed. People will be massacred by the millions. Many people "see" this coming and are attempting to "prepare" for it, but there IS no physical preparation for what's to come. People just do not realize the scale and intensity of what's ahead.

More importantly, a spiritual battle will be fought simulateously. This will be the "real" battle. In layman's terms, this will be "the big showdown" between the true spiritual strengths on this planet. It is for THIS battle that "gifts" which have been mentioned will be fully deployed here.

"Discernation of spirit" (again, in layman's terms) will be used to "uncloak" the "wolves in sheeps' clothing". Many people currently possess this, to some extent, but most do not realize that it can be further developed, enhanced, and amplified. Some do.

"Speaking in tongues" is NOT this gibberish which is babbled in churches. This language is the True language, unknown on Earth. It cannot be understood or deciphered by humans. It will be used during this battle, for many reasons which I am not at liberty to divulge. People who speak in other worldly languages who never previously (alledgedly) spoke that language are NOT speaking the True language. It's a trick. They learned the language or phrase. They are draining purses. The same goes for the "baby babble". Millions of people have been tricked into thinking that the baby babble is "speaking in tongues" (by purse-draining preachers), and they merely copy it. WHY did the "preachers" do this? To fool their "flock" into thinking they have special "gifts", so that they'll hold the preacher in a higher light, giving them more reason to attend church every sunday and "give til it hurts". So, sorry folks, that warm fuzzy feeling followed by baby babble is nothing more than a hoax which you've been tricked into believing. The more that you doubt or argue the point, the more you can be sure that the hoax worked on you.

There are many other "gifts" or "powers", many of which are poo-poo'd by most "religions". Why? Because they're real. Psychokinesis is one typical example. This phenomenon has been swept under the table for centuries, it's existence denied, and it's prac***ioners treated as "evil witches". This is NOT a particularly uncommon abiity! But, if word got out that there ARE people with "special powers", and it were proven that preachers who claim to have "special powers" are nothing but frauds (they can't prove they're not), what would that do for church attendance and, more importantly, the COLLECTION BASKETS?

Another point I'd like to touch-on is the incredible snobbery that exists in almost every "religion" (you're not going to like this). This whole "you believe what I believe or you'll be damned for eternity" at***ude is utter nonsense. Since this is appears to be a predominantly christian forum, sorry, but I'm going to use a common christian belief as example. The whole "you must be born again or (insert bad thing here) will happen or (insert good thing here) will not happen" is just plain WRONG. What makes you so i-g-n-o-r-a-n-t-l-y arrogant as to think that if anyone doesn't believe what you do that they're not as good or deserving as you? Because YOUR book says-so? Poppycock! Please do NOT take this as a singular scolding, as this sort of "join my club or you're not cool" mentality has gone-on since the dawn of man, and millions of people have died over it. I'm telling you right now, that it's time to realize that "religion" must take a back seat to the simple fact that there are only two types of people, good and bad. There IS no grey area. Once you can realize and accept this basic truth, ONLY then can you move-on in a truly positive direction. If you can't, then you're only l-y-i-n-g to yourself.

So, who am I to "preach" all of this? To put it simply, there's a phrase which some people have heard, and others "know". The phrase is "those who tell don't know, those who know don't tell". Well, the time has come when some must tell ... tell some. For anyone reading this who may "know" this phrase, the time has come, and you know what I'm talking about. As for the rest of you, be prepared to experience a lot of change, very soon.

Thank you for your time.

FWIW, the hyphenated words in my message were edited out by this forum's software. Seems odd that they would choose to edit those words, doesn't it? Also, unlike any forum I've ever seen, this one asks for my reason for editing. Hmmm. Well, hopefully my entire message will survive any further editing.