Line Upon Line

The Gospel According to John ends with the following, seemingly over-the-top verse:

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And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.

John 21:25

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Was John simply engaging in hyperbole when he writes that the world could not contain the books that could or should have written about all Jesus did? Certainly, John could not have reasonably believed that the quan***y of books that could be written about the life of Jesus would be so great that that there wouldn't be room on the earth for them to be stored, after all, Jesus only lived for 33 years. If John was engaged in hyperbole, then it means that verse 25 is not true. Well, the Bible is true, and John was not engaged in hyperbole.

John was not talking about the physical capacity of the world to contain the books that should be written of Christ. He was talking of the spiritual capacity of people to accept all that should be written of Christ. What is written in the Bible was written by inspiration according to the spiritual capacity that the people to accept at the time. As the spiritual capacity of the world increases, so then does the Word of God that is given to us.

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9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isaiah 28

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The spiritual capacity of the world to accept God's Word has increased in the past 200+ years, and thus the Lord had given us more of His Word. The exciting part is that there is more -- much, much more -- that the Lord is ready to give us when we are ready to receive. Of course, we also see that those who are unwilling to receive what the Lord is giving us are losing what they once had.

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Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

The Gospel According to John ends with the following, seemingly over-the-top verse:

Was John simply engaging in hyperbole when he writes that the world could not contain the books that could or should have written about all Jesus did? Certainly, John could not have reasonably believed that the quan***y of books that could be written about the life of Jesus would be so great that that there wouldn't be room on the earth for them to be stored, after all, Jesus only lived for 33 years. If John was engaged in hyperbole, then it means that verse 25 is not true. Well, the Bible is true, and John was not engaged in hyperbole.

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A key to accurate interpretation is to recognize genre and literary devicesin literature including literary the device of hyperbole (amongst others). To not do so is to read in a letterest fashion or to spiritualize a difficult (or not so difficult) p***age vs a literal or literary fashion. This is dangerous because when we read things like "It is better to pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin or cut off your hand or foot if they cause you to sin, it is better to enter the kingdom maimed than to be whole and spend eternity in hell." (MacG paraphrase) we would be an eyeless, handless and footless church. John's statement is clearly an exaggeration. To fail to recognize this results in the type of speculation that is engaged in the rest of your post (in this case spiritualizing). This is why we are encouraged to watch our doctrines closely from the first century so we don't get tangled up in endless speculations and controversies.

Words get their meaning by definition in their proper context. Genre and literary devices are part of the context.

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John was not talking about the physical capacity of the world to contain the books that should be written of Christ. He was talking of the spiritual capacity of people to accept all that should be written of Christ. What is written in the Bible was written by inspiration according to the spiritual capacity that the people to accept at the time. As the spiritual capacity of the world increases, so then does the Word of God that is given to us.

The spiritual capacity of the world to accept God's Word has increased in the past 200+ years, and thus the Lord had given us more of His Word. The exciting part is that there is more -- much, much more -- that the Lord is ready to give us when we are ready to receive. Of course, we also see that those who are unwilling to receive what the Lord is giving us are losing what they once had.

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These are the kinds of speculations that let someone wonder and come to believe an angel really could show the way to gold plates buried like treasure (preying on JS' eye for buried treasure) and eventually come to believe they have not the pride of Lucifer who claimed that one day he would ascend to the throne and be like the Most High.

I am not against continued revelation but it must be tested like the spirits are to be - by the known Word.

Blessings,

MacG

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Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

The Gospel According to John ends with the following, seemingly over-the-top verse:



Was John simply engaging in hyperbole when he writes that the world could not contain the books that could or should have written about all Jesus did? Certainly, John could not have reasonably believed that the quan***y of books that could be written about the life of Jesus would be so great that that there wouldn't be room on the earth for them to be stored, after all, Jesus only lived for 33 years. If John was engaged in hyperbole, then it means that verse 25 is not true. Well, the Bible is true, and John was not engaged in hyperbole.

John was not talking about the physical capacity of the world to contain the books that should be written of Christ. He was talking of the spiritual capacity of people to accept all that should be written of Christ. What is written in the Bible was written by inspiration according to the spiritual capacity that the people to accept at the time. As the spiritual capacity of the world increases, so then does the Word of God that is given to us.



The spiritual capacity of the world to accept God's Word has increased in the past 200+ years, and thus the Lord had given us more of His Word. The exciting part is that there is more -- much, much more -- that the Lord is ready to give us when we are ready to receive. Of course, we also see that those who are unwilling to receive what the Lord is giving us are losing what they once had.

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In a word: NONSENSE.

Of COURSE it's hyperbole and the biblical writers used this linguistic device all the time.

"All Judea came out to hear him (John the Baptist". Yep, according to you, there wasn't a living soul in Jerusalem for a while...why even large tumble-weeds came a'tumblin down the Via Dolorosa with no one to gather them up. Sheesh.


You're reading wishful Mormon thinking into the verse and NOTHING MORE...:rolleyes:

Compare and contrast MacG's witnessing style with that of Father JD. If I were open to alternative interpretations of the verse I cited in the opening post -- and I am -- which of the two do you suppose I might be more willing to listen to?

MacG, I suspect John was likely engaging in some hyperbole. But at the same time, I think he might have also intended something along the lines I was suggesting. I don't think you would have to be an LDS Christian to understand verse 25 in a broader context.

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Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

Compare and contrast MacG's witnessing style with that of Father JD. If I were open to alternative interpretations of the verse I cited in the opening post -- and I am -- which of the two do you suppose I might be more willing to listen to?

MacG, I suspect John was likely engaging in some hyperbole. But at the same time, I think he might have also intended something along the lines I was suggesting. I don't think you would have to be an LDS Christian to understand verse 25 in a broader context.

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lds are not Christian....if you can't get that right, how can you get anything Biblical right?

You can't and you don't.

Andy

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Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

MacG, I suspect John was likely engaging in some hyperbole. But at the same time, I think he might have also intended something along the lines I was suggesting. I don't think you would have to be an LDS Christian to understand verse 25 in a broader context.

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My pastor thinks that every time that John uses the word water he is referring to the Holy Spirit - I don't buy it however because of these verses:

"Jn 1: 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

It does not read so well like this:

"Jn 1: 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of Spirit and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."

It makes no sense. So we agree to disagree - agreeably.

As far understanding what you posit in a "broader context" as long as it does not contradict what is written a Christian is free to believe what they will. The caveat is that it can be a subtle slope into believing that one has greater understanding of not so apparent knowledge understanding the "deeper" things and become preoccupied with them. Paul who had been to the third heaven in one way on another did not spend much time dwelling on such things but primarily focused the basic gospel in good hermaneutical style "The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things".

The idea about people being more spiritually open is impossible to quantify but I feel one's openness is like a door that spins on the centerline of the door, one side opens and the other closes as one p***es through. Kinda like people being spiritually open to the antichrist they close the door on the Christ of the Bible. After all that Paul saw he said that we see through a gl*** darkly and we will see in full after we p*** on. "Will the Son of Man find faith on earth when He returns?"
Again: "The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things".

Be alert and test the spirits.

Blessings,

MacG

Even if it is an exaggeration, the point is well received on this end. There is tons o stuff Jesus would teach us if we are but willing to listen. That is even the BoM, POGP, D&C and all the latter day addresses via prophets, seers and revelators does not cover it.

love,
stem

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

Even if it is an exaggeration, the point is well received on this end. There is tons o stuff Jesus would teach us if we are but willing to listen. That is even the BoM, POGP, D&C and all the latter day addresses via prophets, seers and revelators does not cover it.

love,
stem

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One thing you got right....the books that comprise mormonism cover nothing that Jesus taught or would teach except to warn us against such nonsense.

Of course you guys attack the Bible at every turn you can because it soundly refutes mormonism.

Andy

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Originally Posted by akaSeerone

One thing you got right....the books that comprise mormonism cover nothing that Jesus taught or would teach except to warn us against such nonsense.

Of course you guys attack the Bible at every turn you can because it soundly refutes mormonism.

Andy

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Andy,

Grace and Peace to you,

I would have to disagree. There is truth in those writings - Biblical truth, however there is plenty that disagrees with Bible as well. This is the danger of accepting revelation knowledge based on an inner witness while holding to the base teaching that the Bible undoubtedly has errors. This allows for the errant doctrines taught by men to slip in cuz my inner testimony is true, therefore this is one of the times where the bible is errant. The first time this is done it may be done with fear and trepidation because it is only a little different and in a minor area but once that plane is tilted like a see-saw it is a slippery slope to believe crazy things. EG some yogi's teach the the Bible teaches Reincarnation. In the Southern USA they believe in Reintarnation (Hat tip to Jeff Foxworthy):D They go on to teach that He is really Saint ISA that travelled to India between the years of 13 and 30 where the Bible lacks details of his young life and that is where He learned Yogic Magic to perform His miracles. I am sure that our Mormon friends would disagree with this preposterous idea.

Paul tells us that when one gets a message of the Spirit in a public meeting there must be one to interpret it as well. That's because not all messages are of the Spirit but come counterfeit sources - either the individual themselves or the spiritual realm, as the Bible says some go off to follow doctrines of demons: 1Tim4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons," which is why we test the revelations by the spiritual realm by what has been revealed the written word: John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

When Satan can masqerade as an angel of light we had better be able to tell Son Light from Some light. The word tells us what the Son light looks like the question remains Are the New Testament documents reliable?

Grace and Peace,

MacG

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Originally Posted by stemelbow

Even if it is an exaggeration, the point is well received on this end. There is tons o stuff Jesus would teach us if we are but willing to listen. That is even the BoM, POGP, D&C and all the latter day addresses via prophets, seers and revelators does not cover it.

love,
stem

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I can't imagine what it would have been like to have seen all of what He did while He was in His flesh and blood tent. And yet in all that He did it was not enough for most to believe, so we have the written Word - enough of it Luke tells us is sufficient for belief.

Blessings,

MacG

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Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

Compare and contrast MacG's witnessing style with that of Father JD. If I were open to alternative interpretations of the verse I cited in the opening post -- and I am -- which of the two do you suppose I might be more willing to listen to?

MacG, I suspect John was likely engaging in some hyperbole. But at the same time, I think he might have also intended something along the lines I was suggesting. I don't think you would have to be an LDS Christian to understand verse 25 in a broader context.

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So "Mormon". Not wanting to ENGAGE, but to nitpick on others' style or approach.

And YES, one has to be LDS in order to eisegete such NONSENSE into the Biblical text...ya know, just like the nonsensical meaning of the "sticks" representing scripture in Ez. 37!! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Mark Beesley

If John was engaged in hyperbole, then it means that verse 25 is not true. Well, the Bible is true, and John was not engaged in hyperbole.

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An interesting conclusion....

But its clearly in error..

all John was saying is that Jesus talked and taught a lot....
But what John decided to write down is enough for us to know God and to have life in Him.