What REAL EVIDENCE shows joseph smith actually 'restored' anything at all?

Why should anyone believe his ever-changing tales?
Why should anyone believe such a disreputable person?

Where is the EVIDENCE IN REAL LIFE that supports him?

(p.s. 'testimonies' are worthless. White supremecists and branch davidians ave 'testimonies.' 'Testamonies' are nothing but OPINIONS of those who speak them. And EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Why should anyone believe his ever-changing tales?
Why should anyone believe such a disreputable person?

Where is the EVIDENCE IN REAL LIFE that supports him?

(p.s. 'testimonies' are worthless. White supremecists and branch davidians ave 'testimonies.' 'Testamonies' are nothing but OPINIONS of those who speak them. And EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. . .

---

There is a difference between an opinion--and heavenly events with witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;170187]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
Why should anyone believe his ever-changing tales?
Why should anyone believe such a disreputable person?

Where is the EVIDENCE IN REAL LIFE that supports him?

(p.s. 'testimonies' are worthless. White supremecists and branch davidians ave 'testimonies.' 'Testamonies' are nothing but OPINIONS of those who speak them. And EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. . .

---

There is a difference between an opinion--and heavenly events with witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

<SNIP>

As I posted, your 'testimony' is nothing but OPINION as to 'how heavenly' the events were. Joey smith and his cronies made up a bunch of junk, ollie cowdery and joey went out into the woods and 'baptized' each other and 'ordained' each other, 'playing religion' like little kids and you believed them. Even though your god supposedly told joey later that ONLY PROPERLY ORDAINED people had the authority to baptize anyone an ONLY PROPERLY BAPTIZED people had the authority to ordain anyone. Of course the 'pretended' baptism of joey and ollie was NOT DONE PROPERLY by properly ordained people, thus they were doing nothing but 'playing religion' together.

Their so-called 'testimony' was nothing more than a continuation of their 'playing religion,' obviously.

There are NO PLATES TO COMPARE TO JOEY'S so-called 'translation'
There IS NO "reformed Egyptian" anywhere to examine
There is NO WAY TO CHECK JOEY's claims OUT

There is NO REASON TO BELIEVE HIM AT ALL.


Typical cult 'revelations.' Just like the branch davidians and the white supremecists and sun myung moon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is a difference between an opinion--and heavenly events with witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

As I posted, your 'testimony' is nothing but OPINION as to 'how heavenly' the events were.

---

The above testimony does not contain my name--but a testimony of a heavenly revelation--with witnesses.

Which is strangely absent from the rest of Christianity--but present in the first century church, and the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;170196]The above testimony does not contain my name--but a testimony of a heavenly revelation--with witnesses.

Which is strangely absent from the rest of Christianity--but present in the first century church, and the LDS church:


Well, he CLAIMS it is a testimony of 'heavenly revelation.' No we CHRISTIANS don't make such lying claims.

As for your 'rest of Christianity' you don't have that either. Your mormon cult is NOT PART of Christianity. It is a religion that joey smith and his friends made up when they played 'church.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Well, he CLAIMS it is a testimony of 'heavenly revelation.' No we CHRISTIANS don't make such lying claims.

---

Which separates true Christianity from those who claim the such, IMO.

Both the first century church and the LDS make the same claim--heavenly revelation, with witnesses--with living, mortal apostles and prophets.

As you stated--it would be a lie for the faith alone to make such a claim.

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;170212]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian
Well, he CLAIMS it is a testimony of 'heavenly revelation.' No we CHRISTIANS don't make such lying claims.

---

Which separates true Christianity from those who claim the such, IMO.

Both the first century church and the LDS make the same claim--heavenly revelation, with witnesses--with living, mortal apostles and prophets.

As you stated--it would be a lie for the faith alone to make such a claim.

No I stated that you have nothing but joe and his gang that any such 'heavenly' anything took place. (I <snipped> your junk supposedly 'revealed' to joey smith & his buddy ollie cowdery (who went out into the woods to 'play church' and ordain each other. There was nothing there to support your phoney claim that joey smith didn't make it all up.

And YOUR 'living mortal apostles' are nothing more than the 'buddies' of YOUR living and mortal leaders of a pretend cult. They hold no more weight than do the 'apostles' or 'prophets that can't prophesy' of the rlds, the flds, and all of the other pretended lds.

You haven't a whiff of air to stand on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Well, he CLAIMS it is a testimony of 'heavenly revelation.' No we CHRISTIANS don't make such lying claims.

---

Which separates true Christianity from those who claim the such, IMO.

Both the first century church and the LDS make the same claim--heavenly revelation, with witnesses--with living, mortal apostles and prophets.

As you stated--it would be a lie for the faith alone to make such a claim.

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

As you stated--it would be a lie for the faith alone to make such a claim.

---

Exactly. But the LDS and the Biblical church both can make that claim.

Quote:

---

No I stated that you have nothing but joe and his gang that any such 'heavenly' anything took place.

---

That's like saying the Bible has no more than Peter and his gang. Either the church has the claim and it's witnesses--or it does not. As you admitted--your church does not. The Biblical church and the LDS church does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Which separates true Christianity from those who claim the such, IMO.

Both the first century church and the LDS make the same claim--heavenly revelation, with witnesses--with living, mortal apostles and prophets.

As you stated--it would be a lie for the faith alone to make such a claim.

That's like saying the Bible has no more than Peter and his gang. Either the church has the claim and it's witnesses--or it does not. As you admitted--your church does not. The Biblical church and the LDS church does.

---

Nonsense.

Devout LDS claim that none of the three witnesses ever denied their testimony. But, the official Mormon publication Times and Seasons, Vol. II, p. 482, says that Oliver Cowdery did deny the B. of M., even though LDS claim Oliver returned to the LDS Church. The records show that he and his family joined the Methodist Protestant Church in Tiffin, Ohio, in about 1841, where Oliver served as secretary. When he died in 1850, he was buried by a Methodist minister, John Sexsmith, in Richmond, Missouri.

David Whitmer belonged to at least three of the Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.

Martin Harris had been a member of at least five religious groups prior to becoming a Mormon, and he joined several others after he left Mormonism. Brigham Young's brother, Phineas, wrote to Brigham on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio, saying, "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the B. of M." (Martin Harris — Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52).

More than sixty people testified concerning the Sacred Roll and Book of Shakerism, which taught "Christ has made His second appearance on earth, in a chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee." Martin Harris could not believe both that and the D. & C. 49:22, which says, "the Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman." In his old age, Harris rejoined the LDS Church and was brought to Utah where he died. But, there is no record of Harris ever renouncing his "greater" testimony for Shakerism. Therefore, just because there is no record of the witnesses of the B. of M. renouncing their testimony about the B. of M. that does not prove that they still believed it! If they truly believed it, why did they all apostatize from the LDS church?

The testimony of eight other witnesses also appears in the front of all copies of the B. of M. They claim Joseph Smith showed them the gold plates which had "the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship." But, they were not archaeologists nor linguists, so they could not verify the age or the translation of the plates. Many feel that the witnesses did see some old-looking plates, but that Joseph Smith either made them or had them made. Smith and others later accused Oliver Cowdery of counterfeiting. If he could make counterfeit money, he could also make some phony gold plates. He had been a blacksmith when he was young, so he had ability in that area. The testimony of these eight men was changed after they signed it from "Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor" to "the translator." Such a change also invalidates their testimony.

David Whitmer wrote, "All of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out [of the LDS Church]. Peter and Christian Whitmer were dead. Oliver Cowdery came out also" (Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 28). This was in June, 1838. The only ones who remained with Joseph out of the eight witnesses were his father and two brothers.

Apostle James Talmage described the gold plates, saying, "The plates of the B. of M.... were... each about seven inches wide by eight inches long, and in thickness a little less than that of ordinary sheet tin. They were fastened together by three rings running through the plates near one edge; together they formed a book nearly six inches in thickness" (A. of F., p. 262).
Gold weighs 1204.7256 pounds per cubic foot. 7"x 8"x 6"=336 cubic inches or .19444 cubic feet (336 divided by 12 cubed, or 1728). Multiply that by the cubic feet in the gold plates (.19444), and it shows that they weighed about 234.25 pounds! Yet, the testimony of the eight witnesses claims, "We have seen and hefted" the gold plates. And Joseph Smith's mother claimed that he put the plates under one arm and carried them three miles, fighting off the attacks of three robbers at the same time! (Joseph Smith's History By His Mother, 1853 edition, pp. 104-105). Link and more here

So much for your witnesses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Why should anyone believe his ever-changing tales?
Why should anyone believe such a disreputable person?

Where is the EVIDENCE IN REAL LIFE that supports him?

(p.s. 'testimonies' are worthless. White supremecists and branch davidians ave 'testimonies.' 'Testamonies' are nothing but OPINIONS of those who speak them. And EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. . .

---

Here is an excellent video debunking Smith's alleged "restoration."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Berean

Nonsense.

Devout LDS claim that none of the three witnesses ever denied their testimony. But, the official Mormon publication Times and Seasons, Vol. II, p.482, says that Oliver Cowdery did deny the B. of M., even though LDS claim Oliver returned to the LDS Church.

---

That's real interesting. Here is page 482 of the Times and Seasons Vol II:

TIMES AND SEASONS

"TRUTH WILL PREVAIL"

Vol. 2. 18.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. July 15th, 1841 [Whole No. 30.

Times and Seasons.

City of Nauvoo,

Thursday, July 15th, 1841.

Psalm-124th.

Poetry.

For the Times and Seasons.

By J. H. Johnsons.



"The wise shall understand."-Daniel.

Amazed with wonder! I look round Or prove that Christ was not the Lord

To see most people of our day, Because Peter cursed and swore?

Reject the glorious gospel sound, Or Book of Mormon not his word

Because the simple turn away. Because denied, by Oliver?

Or does it prove there is no time, Or prove, that Joseph Smith is false

Because some watches will not go? Because apostates say tis so?

But does it prove there is no crime Or prove, that God, no man exalts

Because not punished here below? Because from priests such doctrines flow?

Or can it prove no gems remain, O, no! the wise will surely say;

Because some fools, throw there's away? No proof unto the man that's wise,

Or can it prove no king can reign Then O! dig deep ye wise to-day;

Because some subject wont obey? And soon the truth will be your prize.

Or prove the gospel was not true Not like the fool who chanc'd to see,

Because old Paul the Saints could kill? The Saint forsake his heavenly course,

Because the Jews its author slew, And turn to sin and vanity-

And now reject their Saviour [Savior] still? Then cries your "scheme is all a farce."

For the Times and Seasons.

Psalm. By

Miss E. R. Snow.

Praise the Lord O my soul: Praise him all ye sons and daughters of Zion.

Let us sing unto him a new song: let us sing of his marvellous [marvelous] doings in the last days.

He is the same yesterday, to-day and forever; therefore I will praise him for what my eyes have seen, and my ears have heard.

He hath opened the fountain of knowledge: he hath unlock'd the treasures of wisdom and understanding.

He hath brought to p*** that which he spake by the mouth of his ancient prophets: yea, he hath caused truth to "spring up out of the earth, and righteousness to look down from heaven."

In ancient time he call'd his servant David from the sheep-fold to preside over the nation of Israel; yea, from a tender of flocks did he raise him to the sovereignty of his covenant people.

He call'd Elijah from the occupation of husbandry, even when "ploughing [plowing] in the field with twelve yoke of oxen;" to be a prophet in Israel:

Yea by the hand of Elijah, was he anointed to the office of his calling, even to proclaim the word of the Lord-to declare the counsels of the Most High to the people.

In these last days the Lord hath call'd his servant Joseph-the son of an husbandman; to be a prophet and a teacher: yea, to be a mighty instrument in rolling forward and establishing that kingdom which "shall fill the whole earth."

The Lord hath spoken to him from the heavens-he hath instructed him thro' the ministration of angels-he hath taught him by the power of the holy spirit.

He hath opened the heavens, he hath rent the veil thereof, before his face-he hath spread the visions of eternity in his presence-he hath drawn aside the curtain of futurity and showed unto his servant things to come.

He hath anointed him with the oil of understanding, and instructed him in the great mysteries of the kingdom of heaven; even those "mysteries which have been hid from ages and from generations."

Rejoice all ye Saints of the Lord and listen to the instruction of his prophet-be careful to depart from evil-let your hearts be pure for the great day of the Lord approaches.

He will perform a speedy work upon the earth-he will cut it short in righteousness-he will not suffer his word to perish.

Therefore, let the nations be wise-let the great ones of the earth receive counsel; let the honest in heart prepare and gather even unto Zion:

For "the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunken man," yea, she shall groan because of iniquity which is already increasing heavily upon her.

But "Zion shall be redeem'd with judgment, and her converts with righteousness"-the nations of the earth will honor her-the glory of the Lord will encomp*** her round bout; and his praises will be heard in her midst.

Communications.

Manchester, April 17th 1841

Dear Bro. Joseph:-

Once more I take my pen to write a few lines to you; most gladly would I embrace the opportunity of a personal interview with you, did it offer; but vain is the indulgence of such thoughts at present.

(page 482)"

Anyone find anything about Oliver Cowdery denying his witness?(three witnesses)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Why should anyone believe his ever-changing tales?
Why should anyone believe such a disreputable person?

Where is the EVIDENCE IN REAL LIFE that supports him?

(p.s. 'testimonies' are worthless. White supremecists and branch davidians ave 'testimonies.' 'Testamonies' are nothing but OPINIONS of those who speak them. And EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. . .

---

STILL NOTHING 'RESTORED' that ever existed in the first century church that supposedly was 'lost' or evidence there was EVER any TOTAL APOSTASY of CHRIST's church OR that it ever 'lost its authority.'

Joe smith simply made all them horse-apples up!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

[B][COLOR=#0000cd]STILL NOTHING 'RESTORED' that ever existed in the first century church that supposedly was 'lost'..

---

Then what was the need for the Reformation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then what was the need for the Reformation?

---

http://www.history.com/topics/reformation


I did a topic here on the reasons behind the reformation a few years ago.
The short answer is that Luther objected to the manner that the Pope was attempting to raise money from people.

I also posted the full listing of the 95 things that were behind the list Luther posted, and what you notice is that Luther had no issue with the Christian faith that was being promoted by the church, but did object to the fund raising to pay for the wild building `program going on at the time.

In our own time we see the same problems with some of the fund raising going on by well known Christian preachers, who might well be spot-on as far the teaching Christian concepts, but do go off the rails with their desire to have new cars and big houses.

So in many ways, the problems some in the church have with how they deal with money goes back in the church all the way to bible times...
So it is a constant thing that men of faith have to watch for and be ready to deal with when it pops up....as it will continue it seems...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.history.com/topics/reformation

I did a topic here on the reasons behind the reformation a few years ago.
The short answer is that Luther objected to the manner that the Pope was attempting to raise money from people.

---

While I don't disagree with the fact that was part of the problem--the Reformation went much deeper--in forming new denominations with a different theology.

Why was that necessary--if nothing had been lost?

https://www.britannica.com/event/Reformation

Martin Luther claimed that what distinguished him from previous reformers was that while they attacked corruption in the life of the church, he went to the theological root of the problem—the perversion of the church’s doctrine of redemption and grace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

While I don't disagree with the fact that was part of the problem--the Reformation went much deeper--in forming new denominations with a different theology.

Why was that necessary-\]

---

In the beginning Luther did not think it was...

thats the sad part in the story is that Luther felt at the time that all his disagreements were an in-house thing and there was only administrative adjustments to the church that were called for.

and as time went on, we do see that the catholic church did change....the things that Luther did object to were addressed in later church changes.


were the changes in part dealing with the path of 'salvation"?..yes.

You have to remember what was at the core of the disagreement, "The selling of indulgences "


http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his101/web/37luther.htm

It was this fund raising concept that had been added to the Catholic teachings that caused Luther to respond the way he did....

Indulgences are a very bad idea that was introduced and got to be a very popular idea with the church and with people, for it provided cash for the church and a means for people to think that "works' caused their salvation.




I will now quote from the link

"The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries.
Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem.

Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work.

Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade."



So yes, Luther's objections were about the path of 'salvation" that was being taught by the church,. but this actually all about the way the church was raising cash, and inventing teachings to support the manner they were raising cash.



So, money, it was all about money...

that introduced the idea that works somehow count for salvation....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by

---

Quote:

---

Christian[IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
[COLOR=#333333][B]STILL NOTHING 'RESTORED' that ever existed in the first century church that supposedly was 'lost'..

---

Then what was the need for the Reformation?

---

Only the roman catholic church needed reforming. CHRISTIANITY did not.

Joe smith restored nothing.

Quote:

---

Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
STILL NOTHING 'RESTORED' that ever existed in the first century church that supposedly was 'lost'..

---

Then what was the need for the Reformation?

ONLY the roman catholic religious doctrines (the rcc was NEVER 'all' of Christianity) were 'reformed.' CHRISTIANITY didn't need it.

CHRIST'S church remained alive and well through it all.

STILL NOTHING from joe smith that was ever 'lost' by CHRISTIANITY or 'restored' by joe in reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

ONLY the roman catholic religious doctrines (the rcc was NEVER 'all' of Christianity) were 'reformed.'

---

Oh??? Please do inform us what doctrines were "reformed" in the Catholic church in the Reformation?

And if they were reformed--then why did the Reformers start new denominations with a different theology?

Quote:

---

CHRISTIANITY didn't need it.

---

I agree--so why did the Reformers start numerous new denominations with a different theology--if the Christian church already existed?

Christian--the Christian church does not need reforming--it can only be restored, if something is lost.

The LDS church is a restored gospel--not a reformed one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Why should anyone believe his ever-changing tales?
Why should anyone believe such a disreputable person?

Where is the EVIDENCE IN REAL LIFE that supports him?

(p.s. 'testimonies' are worthless. White supremecists and branch davidians ave 'testimonies.' 'Testamonies' are nothing but OPINIONS of those who speak them. And EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. . .

---

you should read my thread on this topic before posting this thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then what was the need for the Reformation?

---

The same reason there was a 'reformation' of joe smith's religion when he tried to shoot his way out of jail. . .a religious group (in the case of the reformation, the rcc which was NOT all of Christianity. . .EVER) needed straightening out.

Since the rcc NEVER cons***uted all of CHRISTIANITY, CHRISTIANITY never needed 'reformation.' ONLY the rcc did.

Of course mormonism is NOT CHRISTIAN at all, and like all heathen groups, DOES NEED TO BE CHANGED. ONLY GOD can bring mormons to Himself. . . the mormon religion can't do it.

berry posted:

Oh??? Please do inform us what doctrines were "reformed" in the Catholic church in the Reformation?

Those who LEFT the catholic church went back to what GOD HAD GIVEN IN SCRIPTURE, leaving the catholic church behind.
The rcc did stop selling 'indulgences,' however.

And if they were reformed--then why did the Reformers start new denominations with a different theology?

They merely went back to Christ's ORIGINAL theology. They did NOT do what joey smith did; smith INVENTED A NEW RELIGION.

I agree--so why did the Reformers start numerous new denominations with a different theology--if the Christian church already existed

What do you think was 'different' from CHRIST'S ORIGINAL theology?

Christian--the Christian church does not need reforming--it can only be restored, if something is lost.

So far you have shown NOTHING THAT WAS EVER LOST from Christ's church. NO EVIDENCE OF THAT ANYWHERE.

The LDS church is a restored gospel--not a reformed one.

The lds religion is a deformed gospel, not a restored one. NONE of the mormon-specific junk that exists only in the mormon religion was 'restored' from anything that ever existed in CHRIST'S first century church. Joey smith just made his own junk up.

Smith was a con-man and a heretic, nothing more. He invented his own new religion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christian

Those who LEFT the catholic church went back to what GOD HAD GIVEN IN SCRIPTURE, leaving the catholic church behind.

---

When do you feel the apostasy happened?

Quote:

---

They merely went back to Christ's ORIGINAL theology. They did NOT do what joey smith did; smith INVENTED A NEW RELIGION.

---

Then what religion of their day are you claiming they joined with?

And if it was not a different religion--then why did they form new denominations with a different theology?

Quote:

---

What do you think was 'different' from CHRIST'S ORIGINAL theology?

---

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Quote:

---

So far you have shown NOTHING THAT WAS EVER LOST from Christ's church. NO EVIDENCE OF THAT ANYWHERE.

---

So--you claim they--"merely went back to Christ's ORIGINAL theology" --and with the same breath claim nothing was ever lost?