I get it from Jesus and Paul
John 3:5
5 Jesus answered,‘Very truly,I tell you,no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of 1. water and 2. Spirit.
***us 3:5
5 he saved us,not because of any works of righteousness that we had done,but according to his mercy,through the 1. water of rebirth and renewal by the 2. Holy Spirit.
Only if you believe Jesus
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Originally Posted by
Billyray
Is baptism a requirement for salvation?
The Savior said that "Very truly,I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit." Paul said that we are saved "through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit". The ordinance of baptism must include the confirmation of the Holy Ghost or it is just half a baptism and ineffectual.
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"The gospel requires baptism by immersion for the remission of sins,which is the meaning of the word in the original language—namely,to bury or immerse. … I further believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, [as evidenced] by Peter’s preaching on the day of Pentecost. You might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man,if not done in view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half—that is,the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Savior says,‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" [History of the Church,5:499;punctuation modernized;paragraph divisions altered;from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on July 9,1843,in Nauvoo,Illinois;reported by Willard Richards]
I support the Mormon position
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Originally Posted by
Billyray
I took that as a yes. You also seem to support the Catholic position especially with all of the ECF's quotes. If baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation then why can little children who die not need to be baptized if baptism is an absolute requirement? (I am not asking about age of accountable in this question so please don't give me that answer)
I can't help it if the ante-Nicene Fathers take a diametrically opposite position on baptism then you do. As to why we do not practice infant baptism the answer is found in the Book of Mormon.
THE BOOK OF MORONI
CHAPTER 8
Infant baptism is an evil abomination—Little children are alive in Christ because of the atonement—Faith,repentance,meekness and lowliness of heart,receiving the Holy Ghost,and enduring to the end lead to salvation. Between A.D. 400 and 421
1 An epistle of my father Mormon,written to me,Moroni;and it was written unto me soon after my calling to the ministry. And on this wise did he write unto me,saying:
2 My beloved son,Moroni,I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ hath been mindful of you,and hath called you to his ministry,and to his holy work.
3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers,continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child,Jesus, that he,through his infinite goodness and grace,will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.
4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should disputations rise among you.
5 For,if I have learned the truth,there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.
6 And now, my son,I desire that ye should labor diligently,that this gross error should be removed from among you;for,for this intent I have written this epistle.
7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost,saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ,your Redeemer,your Lord and your God. Behold,I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance;the whole need no physician,but they that are sick;wherefore,little children are whole,for they are not capable of committing sin;wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me,that it hath no power over them;and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son,I know that it is solemn mockery before God,that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin;yea,teach parents that they must repent and be baptized,and humble themselves as their little children,and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance,neither baptism. Behold,baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12But little children are alive in Christ,even from the foundation of the world;if not so,God is a partial God, and also a changeable God,and a respecter to persons for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore,if little children could not be saved without baptism,these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you,that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity;for he hath neither faith,hope,nor charity;wherefore,should he be cut off while in the thought,he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner,for they shall perish except they repent. Behold,I speak with boldness,having authority from God;and I fear not what man can do;for perfect love casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity,which is everlasting love;wherefore,all children are alike unto me;wherefore,I love little children with a perfect love;and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God,neither a changeable being;but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent;wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them,for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ,and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such,for they are in danger of death,hell,and an endless torment. I speak it boldly;God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed,or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ,and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law;wherefore, he that is not condemned,or he that is under no condemnation,cannot repent;and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ,and the power of his Holy Spirit,and putting trust in dead works.
Another Nuh-uh from the Church
"The doctrine of baptism is one of the few teachings within Roman Catholicism for which it can be said that there is a universal consent of the Fathers....From the early days of the Church,baptism was universally perceived as the means of receiving four basic gifts:the remission of sins,deliverance from death,regeneration,and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit." [William Webster,The Church of Rome at the Bar of History,page 95-96]Quotes About Water Baptism
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Ignatius,A.D. 110
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[Jesus] was born and baptized that by his suffering he might purify the water. (Letter to the Ephesians 18)
Justin Martyr,c. A.D. 150
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So that we would not remain the children of necessity and ignorance but become the children of choice and knowledge,and so that we may obtain in the water the forgiveness of sins formerly committed. There is pronounced over the the person who chooses to be born again,and who has repented of their sins,the name of God,the Father and Lord of the universe. He who leads the person that is to be washed to the laver calls God by this name alone. And this washing is called illumination because those who learn these things are illuminated in their understanding. (First Apology 61)
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And this food is called among us the Eucharist,of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true,who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins and to regeneration,and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. (First Apology 66)
Cyprian of Carthage
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Because of this basin of repentance and knowledge of God,which has been ordained for the transgression of God’s people,as Isaiah cries,we have believed,and we testify that the very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented. It is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and of no benefit to you. For what is the use of a baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness,from envy,and from hatred,and,lo,the body is pure. (Dialogue with Trypho 14)
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Those who have been dipped abroad—outside the Church—and have been stained among heretics and schismatics [Novatianists] with the taint of profane water. When they come to us and to the Church which is one,they ought to be baptized. The reason is that laying hands on them that they may receive the Holy Spirit is of little importance,unless they also receive the baptism of the Church. For then can they finally be fully sanctified and be the sons of God,if they be born of each sacrament,since it is written,"Except a man be born again of water,and of the Spirit,he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" [John 3:5]. (Epistles of Cyprian 7,as numbered by The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. V)
***us 3:5
5 he saved us,not because of any works of righteousness that we had done,but according to his mercy,through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
1. not because of any works of righteousness that we had done
2. according to his mercy
3. through* [Greek,"through";by means of] the water* [Greek washing] of rebirth
and
4. renewal by the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed,you were sanctified,you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1. you were washed [water]
2. you were sanctified [Holy Spirit]
3. you were justified [by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus]
Romans 15.16
16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God,so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable,sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 3:24
24 they are now justified by his grace as a gift,through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Then I wont bother telling you
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Originally Posted by
Father_JD
There's NOTHING in the Greek text about WATER. I don't give a flip where you've come up with your BAD "translation" (JST perhaps??) or a bit of EISEGESIS,Mesenja. :rolleyes:
And for your information FatherJD it was not from the Inspired Version of the Bible by Joseph Smith,Jr. Here is that particular verse in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible.
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5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,but according to his mercy he saved us,by the washing of regeneration,and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
It still doesn't take away from the fact that you falsely accused me of "inserting the word,'water' into the text which doesn't appear in the Greek." You were shown to be wrong yet again.
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through* [Greek,"through";by means of] the water* [Greek,washing] of rebirth
