Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by libby

why don't you ask billy? I believe he started this line of questioning.

If you guys don't want to read off topic stuff, just scroll on by.

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i don't have to scroll on by! The subject is mitt romney, not infant baptism, not anything pertaining to any kind of baptism either. Stay on topic or don't post!

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Can you find any verses in the NT that describes a baptism for ANY infant?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I certainly can't and that is why I say it is not Bblical.

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But Calvin taught infant baptism, that is the point. And you teach that infants are sinners.

So--if an infant dies--what saves them from hell?

Mitt Romney believes that all infants are born saved.

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Originally Posted by neverending

Libby,
Because Jesus said this: "Heaven and earth shall p*** away, but my words shall not p*** away" (Matt. 24:35).

What do these words mean to you? Was Jesus lying when he said these words? His word IS the Bible! His word still stands and has for millenia but I guess what Jesus said means nothing to you?

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I was wondering--what do these words mean to you?:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.

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Originally Posted by neverending

[B]Definitions of Christian (n)

1. believer in Jesus Christ as savior: somebody whose religion is Christianity
2. from teachings of Jesus Christ: based on or relating to a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Messiah, and acceptance of his teachings, contained in the Gospels
3. relating to Christianity, or belonging to or maintained by a Christian organization, especially a church

This is the definition of what a Christian is or a religion that calls itself Christian.

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Never--if one has to be able to identify with all three of these parameters--you could not qualify as a Christian, but the LDS could.

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Now, answer me this. If a person claims to believe in and follows Christ BUT the Christ they say they believe in is NOT the TRUE Christ of the Bible, then can they be considered a Christian?

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Seeing that the faith alone could match very few of the doctrines taught by Christ and His disciples, and found within the NT Biblical text--where does that leave you?

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How many of the Christians here have told you over and over again that Mormonism DOES NOT worship the true and living Jesus Christ of the Bible.

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But that is just an erection and disembowelment of a straw man.

The fact is--any religion that claims that there is not the first act of obedience to Jesus Christ necessary for His grace unto life eternal has nothing in common with the Bible.

What is it about that we don't understand?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.

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I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

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Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post---I think when morality and gender are taught as eternal principles rather than just fleshy, earthly principles--that youth are more likely to abstain from pre-marital sex.

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Originally Posted by neverending

BJ: this makes me laugh for I've known many a Bishop's daughter who got pregnant out of wedlock. Here in Utah County just south of where I live, the child molesters are out in full force and this is the one county within Utah that has more LDS than any other, because Brigham Young University is there. So, you see Julie, your church may teach good morals to their children but the kids do what they want regardless. They follow their natural tendencies for even they are sinners. The natural man is an enemy to God, so says your BoM. It matters not what religion one is, teenagers DO WHAT they want, ignoring what they've been taught, ignoring the talks with their parents. Do you have teenagers in your home? Do you understand the the peer pressures that our teens face today? Let's get real here. Your family values do not always matter to some teens. Teens today are exposed to more than you are aware of or you wouldn't have made such a naive statement.

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Huh? What are you saying here, Never? That it is useless to teach the gospel to our children? That it has no effect in their lives? That all teens have no morals?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

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John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


What works are required according to the above verses?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Calvin taught infant baptism,

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True

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And you teach that infants are sinners.

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True

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--if an infant dies--what saves them from hell?

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Who said that infants go to hell?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

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Yup--no telling what trash one can dig up on even the most sacred of them all, Jesus Christ. It was a common belief among the Jews that Jesus was the Son of a Roman soldier--giving his name, rank, and serial number.

Here is some of the story:http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bi...lianazar_7.htm


The evidence of the Rabbis


The Jewish records of the Rabbis are of extreme importance in determining Gospel origins and the value of the church presentation of the virgin birth story of Jesus Christ. A common appellation for Jesus in the Talmud was Yeshu'a ben Panthera, an allusion to the widespread Jewish belief during the earliest centuries of the Christian era that Jesus was the result of an illegitimate union between his mother and a Roman soldier named Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera.


The Talmud enshrines within its pages Jewish oral law. It is divided into two parts, the Mishna and the Gemara. The first discusses such subjects as festivals and sacred things. The Gemara, is basically a commentary on these subjects. When the Talmud was written is not known. Some authorities suggest a date of 150-160, around the same time the Christian Gospels began to emerge, while others say 450.


The Talmud writers mentioned Jesus' name twenty times and quite specifically documented that he was born an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panthera, nicknamed the "Panther". Panthera's existence was confirmed by the discovery of a mysterious tombstone at Bingerbrück in Germany. The engraving etched in the headstone read:

Tiberius Julius Abdes Panthera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who in 9AD was transferred to service in Rhineland (Germany). 1

This inscription added fuel to the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier Panthera. Cl***ical scholar Professor Morton Smith of the Columbia University USA, described the tombstone as possibly `our only genuine relic of the holy family.' 2 In many Jewish references, Jesus was often referred to as 'ben Panthera', 'ben' meaning, 'son of'. However cautious one ought to be in accepting anything about Jesus from Jewish sources, in the matter of Jesus 'ben Panthera', the writers seem more consistent than the men we now call the church fathers.


Scholars, for centuries, have discussed at length why Jesus was so regularly called ben Panthera. Adamantius Origen, an early Christian historian and church father (185-251), recorded the following verses about Mary from the research records of a highly regarded Second Century historian and author named Celsus (c. 178):

Mary was turned out by her husband, a carpenter by profession, after she had been convicted of unfaithfulness. Cut off by her spouse, she gave birth to Jesus, a *******; that Jesus, on account of his poverty was hired out to go to Egypt; that while there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing.3

Later, in p***age 1:32, Origen supported the Jewish records and confirmed that the paramour of the mother of Jesus was a Roman soldier called Panthera, a name he repeated in verse 1:69. Sometime during the 17th Century, those sentences were erased from the oldest Vatican m****cripts and other codices under church control. 4


The traditional church writings of St Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis (315-403) again confirmed the ben Panthera story and his information was of a startling nature. This champion of Christian orthodoxy and saint of Roman Catholicism frankly stated:

Jesus was the son of a certain Julius whose surname was Panthera. 5

This was an extraordinary declaration simply recorded in ancient records as accepted church history. The ben Panthera legend was so widespread that two early stalwarts of the Christian church inserted the name in the genealogies of Jesus and Mary as a matter of fact.


Enlarging on that statement, this p***age from the Talmud:

Rabbi Shiemon ben Azzai has said: I found' in Jerusalem a book of genealogies; therein was written that Such-an-one (Jesus) is the ******* son of an adulteress. 6

'Such-an-one' was one of the well-known subs***utes for Jesus in the Talmud, as has been proved and admitted on either side. Shiemon ben Azzai flourished at the end of the First and beginning of the Second Century. He was one of four famous Rabbis, who according to Talmudic tradition 'entered Paradise'. He was a Ch***id (the pious Jews of Palestine), most probably an Essene and remained a celibate and rigid ascetic until his death.


The story of Mary's pregnancy by a Roman soldier also appeared in the sacred book of the Moslems, the Koran. It stated that 'a full-grown man' forced his attentions on Mary, and in her fear of the disgrace that would follow she left the area and bore Jesus in secret. This story was supported in the Gospel of Luke, with the description of the departure of Joseph and Mary from their home prior to the birth. Rape was a common event in Palestine during the Roman occupation and soldiers were notorious for their treatment of young women. It would be unthinkable for Mary to admit such an event had occurred for, under the Law of Moses, a betrothed virgin who had sex with any man during the period of her betrothal, was to be stoned to death by the men of the city (Deut. 22:21). Simply put, Mary faced the death penalty unless she could prove her innocence. 7



I agree with Julie--it is an anomaly that the LDS church is known for it's morality and hard working members, their integrity and honesty--and yet--came from some scoundrel that was lower than dirt.


Matthew7:20--"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Matthew7:20--"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

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I agree.

Lying and having a relationship with a 14 year old girl when you are 38 are not high in my book of endearing qualities.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


What works are required according to the above verses?

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All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.

As you stated:

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

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Originally Posted by Billyray
Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

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Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

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Billyray---Lifesaving faith IS required FOR salvation so I am not sure what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.

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According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
But Calvin taught infant baptism,

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Billy---True

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
And you teach that infants are sinners.

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Billyray---True

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
So--if an infant dies--what saves them from hell?

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Billyray---Who said that infants go to hell?

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Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

Again--what saves them from hell--if indeed your belief is true that infants are sinners--if they die in infancy?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Who said that infants go to hell?

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I think we had this discussion before and you said you didn't know where infants go (one way or the other), because the Bible doesn't speak about it.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

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We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I think we had this discussion before and you said you didn't know where infants go (one way or the other), because the Bible doesn't speak about it.

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Correct. With the caveat that it appears that David's child who died young went to heaven. 2 Samuel 12:21-23

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
We do obey Christ when we place our faith in him.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I wholeheartly agree with you, Billyray. It's just not a dead faith that is considered obedience to Christ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


What works are required according to the above verses?

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dberrie----All the works that are included in the "belief" in Christ.

As you stated:

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

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Originally Posted by Billyray
Those who do not have lifesaving faith do not have works. Those who do have lifesaving faith do have works.

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Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

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Billyray---Lifesaving faith IS required FOR salvation so I am not sure what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?

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Again--all the works that "belief" in Christ incurs.

We might begin by asking--what works are you referring to when you state--

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James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

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So--what works are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Again--all the works that "belief" in Christ incurs.

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I don't think you understood my question. Care to try again?

According to the verses above what works are required according to Christ?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?

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But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

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So what is the problem?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

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What works does James speak about exactly?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

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A 7 1/2 year old sins and doesn't require baptism according to Mormonism. Looks like a double standard doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't think you understood my question.

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I understand your question, Billyray. My answer stands as is. Belief in Christ incorporates obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral components, just as a car has a transmission and engine as it's integral components.

What is your evidence that faith, belief, or trust does not incorporate obedience to Jesus Christ?

What works do you attach to your statement:

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Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I understand your question, Billyray. My answer stands as is. Belief in Christ incorporates obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral components, just as a car has a transmission and engine as it's integral components.

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John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Christ was asked a very specific question about what works were required and what did Christ say? To believe in the one he has sent. Period.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

What works do you attach to your statement:

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None. Works do not contribute FOR salvation. The thief was saved and he did not have works.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Could you explain to us how infants are saved if you believe they are sinners, and they die as infants?

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
We are all sinners DB. Haven't you figured that out by now?

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dberrie---But you have a problem here, Billyray. We can exercise faith in Christ. An infant can't even understand what faith in Christ is.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

A 7 1/2 year old sins and doesn't require baptism according to Mormonism. Looks like a double standard doesn't it?

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You have another problem here, Billyray. The LDS do not believe infants are sinners. You do. The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.

Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?

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The Bible is silent on this fact with the exception of David's child. But Christ can save an infant because of his sacrifice. I am not sure why you see this as a problem.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.

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So you believe a kid who is one day shy of his 8th birthday is innocent and the next day he is guilty?

[quote]Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

What works do you attach to your statement:

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Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

None. Works do not contribute FOR salvation. The thief was saved and he did not have works.

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So--you state that faith without works is dead, and those who have dead faith are not saved.

Then--there is no works you attach to your "faith without works is dead" statement, and that there is no works necessary for salvation.

Billyray--someone is confused.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then--there is no works you attach to your "faith without works is dead" statement, and that there is no works necessary for salvation.

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A person is saved by faith in Christ not their works. Just like the thief on the cross was saved by his faith because he did not have works.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

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Billyray---Faith without works is dead. Thus there is dead faith and living faith. Those who have dead faith are not saved and do not have works. Those who have living faith (lifesaving faith) have true faith and are saved.

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Tell me what this means to you "Those who have dead faith are not saved"

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Again--according to YOUR theology that infants are sinners--how are they saved from hell?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible is silent on this fact with the exception of David's child. But Christ can save an infant because of his sacrifice. I am not sure why you see this as a problem.

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That Christ saves through His sacrifice is not the problem--the LDS believe that--and, in fact, is the very reason that the LDS believe that infants are born saved.

The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.

How does the Atonement bring infants to eternal life in your theology?

Which infants? How?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That Christ saves through His sacrifice is not the problem--the LDS believe that--and, in fact, is the very reason that the LDS believe that infants are born saved.

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Is a seven year old who steals a candy bar committing a sin?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.

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Just like every single person is a sinner. As I said the Bible doesn't speak about infants so anything I say is speculation. But just like Christ saves LDS children who are sinner without baptism he could do the same under Christian theology. So I am not sure what you take issue with.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe infants are born saved. 7.5 year olds the same--innocent.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So you believe a kid who is one day shy of his 8th birthday is innocent and the next day he is guilty?

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Accountable. And the accountability of youth is not the same as adults, considering the youth and the adult is of sound mind.

Not all youth are capable of understanding right from wrong--and that is taken into account also.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Accountable. And the accountability of youth is not the same as adults, considering the youth and the adult is of sound mind.

Not all youth are capable of understanding right from wrong--and that is taken into account also.

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They may not understand right from wrong but they still sin. And yet they sin and are saved without baptism.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The problem is that you believe that infants are sinners.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Just like every single person is a sinner. As I said the Bible doesn't speak about infants so anything I say is speculation.

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I believe that it is possible that the Bible does speak of children:

Galatians4:1-2--"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father."

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But just like Christ saves LDS children who are sinner without baptism

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The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.

If you believe they are--could you share how you believe infants sin?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe that it is possible that the Bible does speak of children:

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2 Samuel 12
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”


As I said there is an indication from this p***age that the infant who dies will go to heaven. (BTW I know the LDS position on David but that is a topic for another thread)

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.

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What do you call a 7 year old who sins?