was lucifer created evil?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Your beliefs go against what the Bible teaches, but what I was tying to get at is why does it make a difference from a Christian point of view if you believe a baby does not sin but a 1 or 2 year old does sin?

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First of all, my belief is not unbiblical. It just disagrees with your interpretation.

Second, it doesn't matter that much in that Jesus' sacrifice covers all children, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Libby

First of all, my belief is not unbiblical.

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Sure they are Libby. I gave you multiple verses that you seem unable or unwilling to address AND you have not given me a single verse that says that some people sin and others do not.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Second, it doesn't matter that much in that Jesus' sacrifice covers all children, IMO.

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Why would people who did not sin need Jesus' sacrifice since they never sinned (in your opinion)?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why would people who did not sin need Jesus' sacrifice since they never sinned (in your opinion)?

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Because they are born with a sin nature.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Because they are born with a sin nature.

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But if they are perfect why the need for Jesus' sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But if they are perfect why the need for Jesus' sacrifice?

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I didn't say they were perfect. I said, they didn't have the ability to commit personal sin.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I didn't say they were perfect. I said, they didn't have the ability to commit personal sin.

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Why aren't they perfect if they haven't committed any sin?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why aren't they perfect if they haven't committed any sin?

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Because we are born with a sin nature.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Because we are born with a sin nature.

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So they are sinners then?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So they are sinners then?

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Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

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So again if they have not committed any sin and are perfect why do they need the sacrifice of Christ in order to be saved?

Get off the merry-go-round, Billy. We've already covered this territory.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Get off the merry-go-round, Billy. We've already covered this territory.

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You can't answer the question of why people who never sin need Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You can't answer the question of why people who never sin need Jesus.

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Already answered.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Already answered.

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But your answer made no sense. Jesus died for our sins. If you have no sins why do you need Jesus?

weeks later and you guys are still dealing with the question of the sins of children?
Look people, the Bible clearly states that Paul was alive before the law came into his life....

This means that no matter the sins the child-Paul was doing they simply were not credited against him until he was old enough to be covered under the law...

Thats the answer people....

Thats also the only answer.....

We were talking about whether or not babies sin, not the age of accountability.

I think it's rather ridiculous to try and claim that babies commit personal sin. But, even so, you are correct that they are not held accountable.

Waiting for Billy to ask you why these children need Jesus, if they are not held accountable for sin.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I think it's rather ridiculous to try and claim that babies commit personal sin.

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Why should anyone take to heart what you personally believe especially since many of your beliefs are not in line with the scriptures. What is important is what the Bible says on this issue. Tell me Libby doesn't the Bible teach that we all sin?

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Originally Posted by Libby

Waiting for Billy to ask you why these children need Jesus, if they are not held accountable for sin.

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Did you forget what we were even talking about? It wasn't accountability rather it is whether or not young children including babies sin.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Waiting for Billy to ask you why these children need Jesus, if they are not held accountable for sin.

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Jesus is God....you dont get to heaven except via Christ no matter your age....even if you are but one hr old,,,or one moment old...you still can not enter into eternal life except via Christ.....case-closed.

thus the idea that even a day old child that dies will stand before the same Lord as i will is a very correct teaching...

so no matter that a child sins or not...they are not held to be accountable under the teachings of Paul when he said that he was once "alive" before the Law came...


Remember paul said he was 'alive"...not 'sinless'

there is a difference...


so we should NEVER think that children can not sin, as we know all sin, but that what we are taught is that regardless of the sins of a child we see that God will over look their sins and they are not held as being 'guilty" of the sins they do....

Thus as Paul teaches, they have life......

that's the teaching of the bible....that children have 'life".....

Not that they are free from sin....
not that they are free of error....
not that they are guilt-free.....

The only teaching that is supported by the text is that all of us as children were not seen as "dead" ......we were "alive"

Thats the teaching of the Bible.....



ANY OF US THAT TRY TO TWIST THIS?.........well.....they error and do not seem to want to trust the Bible it seems....

I've never said that "children" cannot sin. They most certainly can.

I am saying babies do not have the ability to sin.

They have "potential", but not yet the ability, since they can't even "reason" to know what a sin might be.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I've never said that "children" cannot sin. They most certainly can.

I am saying babies do not have the ability to sin.

They have "potential", but not yet the ability, since they can't even "reason" to know what a sin might be.

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What do the verses that I gave you say?

Born in sin.....yes, absolutely. Our parents were sinners, were they not? And, we all will be, soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Born in sin.....yes, absolutely. Our parents were sinners, were they not? And, we all will be, soon enough.

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The verses say that we all sin. Why are rejecting what the Bible plainly says?

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Originally Posted by Libby

I've never said that "children" cannot sin. They most certainly can.

I am saying .....

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No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...


Thats the difference here.....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...


Thats the difference here.....

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Alan, Libby has made up her own religion based on what she feels is right according to her rather than yielding to what God has taught us in the Bible. She is a false teacher.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan, Libby has made up her own religion based on what she feels is right according to her rather than yielding to what God has taught us in the Bible. She is a false teacher.

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Actually, I am very much a Christian. And, I'm not the only Christian who believes that babies do not commit personal sin.

I think it is a travesty that people try to put that on innocent babies.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...


Thats the difference here.....

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Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

Your verses are either speaking about the "sin nature" or speaking figuratively. Only a fundamentalist would take those verses absolutely literally and try to make it appear that babies sin.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, I am very much a Christian. And, I'm not the only Christian who believes that babies do not commit personal sin.

I think it is a travesty that people try to put that on innocent babies.

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Libby if you are truly a Christian you should ask yourself why your ideas don't line up with the Bible. Your beliefs are false in many areas and all you seem to be doing here is trying to sew discord among Christians rather than discuss Mormonism which this board is set up to do.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

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Libby I have given you several verses that clearly state that we ALL sin. And you are also aware that sin and accountability are two different topics because we have already discussed this.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

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Bingo. That is the solution to the whole controversy, and if Calvin and Edwards had realized and acknowledged that, there would have been a whole lot less arguments over the intervening centuries.

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Bingo.

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So what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?

Jeff do you believe a 7 year old can sin?

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Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Bingo. That is the solution to the whole controversy, and if Calvin and Edwards had realized and acknowledged that, there would have been a whole lot less arguments over the intervening centuries.

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Yeah, actually, this is an Arminian belief, as well. Billy thinks I got it from Mormonism, but I have actually been espousing Arminian belief on this subject.

Calvin was still very "Catholic" in his belief about babies. He believed in a need for infant baptism, because of imputed original sin.

The Reformed Church I've been attending goes all the way back to the Reformation and it is also very "Catholic". They do infant baptisms, as well.

I was wondering if the Presbyterians do? Will have to look that up.

Appears that Orthodox Presbyterians (who are Reformed) do infant baptisms, as well. Interesting. They believe in original sin, just as the Roman Catholics do.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Appears that Orthodox Presbyterians (who are Reformed) do infant baptisms, as well. Interesting. They believe in original sin, just as the Roman Catholics do.

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Why the need to baptize an infant if the infant did no sin?

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Originally Posted by Libby

The Reformed Church I've been attending goes all the way back to the Reformation and it is also very "Catholic". They do infant baptisms, as well.

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The Reformed churches do not believe that all infants are saved by baptism because many who are baptized as infants will never accept Christ.

BTW Arminians and Calvisist agree that a person is saved when he places his faith in Christ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why the need to baptize an infant if the infant did no sin?

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Catholics and Reformed believers, believe as you do, that infants are born in sin.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Catholics and Reformed believers, believe as you do, that infants are born in sin.

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So do you think that the Reformed churches believe that all those who were baptized as infants will be saved and that all infants who die without baptism will be sent to Hell?