What are the requirements to be a Christian?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Suffice it to say, I still believe that it is our LOVE of God that makes a Christian and that can be seen as we FOLLOW the Spirit.

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Thus your believe that faith in Christ is NOT required. This is false BigJ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you believe John 6?

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I believe the entire Bible is the word of God. What I disagree with is your interpretation. You read these verses through the lens of Calvinism. God does not predestine some for heaven and the rest for ****ation. What he does predestine is that those who choose Christ, receive all the benefits that God had ordained from the foundation of the world for them to receive. We become the "elect" after we become Christians. This is when we are adopted as God's children.

Man does have a choice and this is why men will be held accountable at the Judgment.

I marvel that you ignore every single p***age that says: believe in me, believe in the Lord Jesus. if you are thirsty, come, If you are hungry, come. If you call on the name of Christ he will in no wise cast you out. If you seek me I can be found. He knocks waiting for us to answer.

God is not wanting any to perish Billy. What do YOU do with that verse?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, Alan, ....

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not catching us , nor our manners at our best...thats clear...

as is my embarr***ment that I was unable to point my younger brothers to the door.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

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We have defined it for you over and over Billy. And yet you ask the same things over and over because you do not like the answers.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

I believe the entire Bible is the word of God.

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Then you should have not trouble talking about John 6. Your position does not allow you to accept that chapter so you must run to other verses to support your position.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

We have defined it for you over and over Billy.

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You have absolutely not defined it. That is why I have asked you over and over again. Maybe if you define it we can understand each other's position a little bit better.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

God does not predestine some for heaven and the rest for ****ation.

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Do you believe that God knew everything that you would do and where you would end up BEFORE creating the world?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Why didn't you respond to the verses in John 6?

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Because its been discussed already and you didn't like every biblical answer we give. You know Billy, I have been googling Calvinism and Reformed Theology for the past few days and they give the same p***ages you do for proof text. Then I read all the refutations and what the Bible as a WHOLE teaches about regeneration, etc. I'm sorry, Billy, but Calvin was wrong concerning Predestination and limited grace/atonement. If one buys into this entire teaching, then one will not see the errors of it until the Holy Spirit reveals it.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

Because its been discussed already and you didn't like every biblical answer we give.

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How did you explain the verses in John 6 using the verses in John 6? You didn't. You ran to other verses for support.

Bottom line Sword, as I have said many times before, there are verses that support your position and there are verses that support my position. I respect your position but you do not respect my position and you have even called me a cult member for my position. You are making this personal. And I will persist as long as you do.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

If one buys into this entire teaching, then one will not see the errors of it until the Holy Spirit reveals it.

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Again your arrogance rears it's ugly head. You think you are right and the Reformed position is wrong. You are not even trying to see my position because you are too busy telling me I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Again your arrogance ...... .

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settle down kids.....

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You have absolutely not defined it.

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see this is why i keep asking Sword/Billy to take this topic asde to its own area.

The fact is,,,,Sword actually did define his terms, and did so with some clear wording... (Post 414)
Now I may not agree with his understanding, but I can see when he makes a real attempt to define his terms and he has, and he did so good enough to move the conversation on to other issues.

But the fact that we are still getting to read a request to define the same terms over and over means that this topic is more or less , doomed.

Take it to a non-Mormon setting guys, and enjoy yourselves without interruption.
heck I will even buzz over to see who seems to have the most ammo in his arguments?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The fact is,,,,Sword actually did define his terms, and did so with some clear wording... (Post 414)

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Here is post 414 he did not define the terms. He said regeneration and born again are the same thing, and I agree. I have always stated that born again = regeneration.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

. . .Since regeneration is the same thing as being born again. we are dead in our sins until we come to the Cross on bended knee and humble ourselves and seek mercy and forgiveness. You cannot be born again before you are regenerate since they are one and the same thing. Belief in Christ must come first. Therefore when we come to Christ we come as unregenerate seeking the new birth.

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Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

you know.....try as i might, there actually is only one thing i can do....well two things really.

i can :
#1 - suggest other ways to go

#2 - I can put people on my IGNORE LIST and block them from ever being able to appear on my computer screen again.

I like to use way number #1 because its easy and allows the conversations in the future to go on.
But I always keep #2 on-deck in case he has to pinch-hit

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Here is post 414 he did not define the terms. He said regeneration and born again are the same thing, and I agree. I have always stated that born again = regeneration.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

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We have done that. We gave you the scriptures. You have had several Christians on here try to tell you that you are mistaken. Why is it you refuse to heed what we say and at least seriously consider all that we have shared with you.You keep saying that you agree that regeneration means the same thing as born again. However, you claimed that you were regenerated before you had believed in the true gospel and repented. You were still lds. You were still unsaved, Billy. One must BELIEVE and REPENT before he can be born again Therefore you were not regenerated yet. You had not yet come to the Cross.

When we are born again, God begins to change us from the inside. These changes are signs of our conversion. Peace, love for others, a new heart, etc. These are signs of conversion. Of one's spiritual rebirth.

Billy, here's a verse I want you to look up: Galatians 4:16. Paul is speaking to his friends. We too are speaking to you as friends and fellow Christians.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

One must BELIEVE and REPENT before he can be born again Therefore you were not regenerated yet. You had not yet come to the Cross.

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Please define the terms for me. Thus for you have not. Trust me I do have a point which I will show you after you give me your definitions.

Define

Conversion

Regeneration

oh,,so we want to step up the game I see?
call my post a bluff are you?

very well...Final warning Billy....

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

One must BELIEVE and REPENT before he can be born again

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What verse are you using that says your must be saved BEFORE you are born again?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

And if we love Christ, we love each other and stop trying to decide who is "in" with Christ and who is "out" with Christ.

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Amen.

Marvin

I mentioned several thousand posts ago that to be a Christian one must be born again. This is the basic and profound tenet of Christianity.

I do not see that "belief in the resurrection" would make someone a Christian. For someone could believe that and remain in "sin."

To be a Christian, a fundamental change must take place. Jesus told Nicodemus it was obligatory to be born again, thus He used the word "must."

So, where does that leave us? If you remain in the sin nature you were born in, then you are not a christian. Pay very close attention here. No man can rid himself of that nature, it is a work of the Holy Spirit! Not water baptism can rid us of that nature. Not obeying the 10 commandments can rid us of that nature, not reading the Bible, praying or any of that can rid us of the sin nature. And to be a Christian, you must be rid of that sin nature, otherwise you remain apart from God.

The "old" must p*** away, so that we can be made new. This is what
Christianity is all about! Rebirth is the work of the Holy Spirit. We don't initiate that work, He does.

Look at what II CO 5:17-18 says; "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have p***ed away; behold all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their tresp***es to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

Salvation is a powerful thing. For it changes the essence of who we were, and makes us into a whole new man.

So, to put it another way to be labeled "Christian" one must have been made new, the old has to go, for we cannot be "little Christ's" as long as the old nature resides in us.

This is my last 2 cents on the subject, I hope it helps those who read it.

blessings,
dfoJC

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

. . . sin nature. . .No man can rid himself of that nature, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. . .Rebirth is the work of the Holy Spirit. We don't initiate that work, He does.

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Agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

When we are born again, God begins to change us from the inside. These changes are signs of our conversion.

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After initial regeneration/conversion (or conversion/regeneration as you state) are lives become more and more Christlike over time which is called sanctification.

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

I mentioned several thousand posts ago that to be a Christian one must be born again. This is the basic and profound tenet of Christianity.

I do not see that "belief in the resurrection" would make someone a Christian. For someone could believe that and remain in "sin."

To be a Christian, a fundamental change must take place. Jesus told Nicodemus it was obligatory to be born again, thus He used the word "must."

So, where does that leave us? If you remain in the sin nature you were born in, then you are not a christian. Pay very close attention here. No man can rid himself of that nature, it is a work of the Holy Spirit! Not water baptism can rid us of that nature. Not obeying the 10 commandments can rid us of that nature, not reading the Bible, praying or any of that can rid us of the sin nature. And to be a Christian, you must be rid of that sin nature, otherwise you remain apart from God.

The "old" must p*** away, so that we can be made new. This is what
Christianity is all about! Rebirth is the work of the Holy Spirit. We don't initiate that work, He does.

Look at what II CO 5:17-18 says; "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have p***ed away; behold all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their tresp***es to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

Salvation is a powerful thing. For it changes the essence of who we were, and makes us into a whole new man.

So, to put it another way to be labeled "Christian" one must have been made new, the old has to go, for we cannot be "little Christ's" as long as the old nature resides in us.

This is my last 2 cents on the subject, I hope it helps those who read it.

blessings,
dfoJC

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I agree. dfoJC, thanks for your post. I have always found your posts to be consistent with the Scriptures.

On this thread we received lots of different answers. One said belief in the Resurrection is the only requirement. This is false. Others have said they were regenerated before they were spiritually born again and then in the next sentence said that regeneration and rebirth are one and the same thing.

Without the Holy Bible as our guide, we will not be consistent and end up having some false beliefs. I do not say this to be unkind.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit who prompts and convicts sinners. I totally agree with you. Head knowledge does not make one a Christian. It has to be a heart conviction. In order to have a heart conviction, one must have true faith. This faith is more than merely believing. Those who claimed to have been a Christian and then ended up joining a cult or not believing anymore, had only head knowledge. Because if they truly BELIEVED in the Gospel and the true Messiah, They would have been born again, adopted into the family of God and receive eternal life.

One thing I did notice that was missing from your post (although I know you will agree that it is important for salvation) is that you made no mention of the necessity of belief. One must believe on the Lord Jesus. If it were all God's doing and man only needs to sit back, then faith would be unnecessary. The Holy Spirit provides Illumination through the preaching of the scriptures. Faith comes by the hearing of the word. The next step is our response to that preaching. Throughout the NT whenever anyone asked what must I do to be saved, they were never told: "You can't do anything. Just sit back and let God do it all." Nor did the apostles ever say: If you were elected before the foundation of the world, you will be saved no matter what you do. But if God chose you for hell, sorry you are doomed and have nothing to say about it." This was the erroneous teaching of Augustine and Calvin. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ died for the WORLD, not just for some.

What the Scriptures DOES teach is that one must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ and confess with the mouth that He is Lord and Savior. This is a requirement for spiritual rebirth. I capitalized the word believe because it is more than mere belief, for even the devil believes and trembles. its a conviction of the heart and not the head.

I agree with you dfoJC, nothing more needs to said. I pray the lds reading this thread will receive some illumination and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit by giving their life to Jesus and make Him their Savior and not their church or their works.

Erik were you saved after you were converted (faith and repentance)?

Erik how does one who is spiritually dead in sins and tresp***es save himself by repenting and placing his faith in Christ?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

I agree. dfoJC, thanks for your post. I have always found your posts to be consistent with the Scriptures.

On this thread we received lots of different answers. One said belief in the Resurrection is the only requirement. This is false. Others have said they were regenerated before they were spiritually born again and then in the next sentence said that regeneration and rebirth are one and the same thing.

Without the Holy Bible as our guide, we will not be consistent and end up having some false beliefs. I do not say this to be unkind.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit who prompts and convicts sinners. I totally agree with you. Head knowledge does not make one a Christian. It has to be a heart conviction. In order to have a heart conviction, one must have true faith. This faith is more than merely believing. Those who claimed to have been a Christian and then ended up joining a cult or not believing anymore, had only head knowledge. Because if they truly BELIEVED in the Gospel and the true Messiah, They would have been born again, adopted into the family of God and receive eternal life.

One thing I did notice that was missing from your post (although I know you will agree that it is important for salvation) is that you made no mention of the necessity of belief. One must believe on the Lord Jesus. If it were all God's doing and man only needs to sit back, then faith would be unnecessary. The Holy Spirit provides Illumination through the preaching of the scriptures. Faith comes by the hearing of the word. The next step is our response to that preaching. Throughout the NT whenever anyone asked what must I do to be saved, they were never told: "You can't do anything. Just sit back and let God do it all." Nor did the apostles ever say: If you were elected before the foundation of the world, you will be saved no matter what you do. But if God chose you for hell, sorry you are doomed and have nothing to say about it." This was the erroneous teaching of Augustine and Calvin. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ died for the WORLD, not just for some.

What the Scriptures DOES teach is that one must BELIEVE in Jesus Christ and confess with the mouth that He is Lord and Savior. This is a requirement for spiritual rebirth. I capitalized the word believe because it is more than mere belief, for even the devil believes and trembles. its a conviction of the heart and not the head.

I agree with you dfoJC, nothing more needs to said. I pray the lds reading this thread will receive some illumination and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit by giving their life to Jesus and make Him their Savior and not their church or their works.

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Thank you EricEric for your observations in regard to belief, yes, a very essential part of being born again.

But this does offer an interesting pov, did belief come before or after being born again? I know for me, I had about 3 months of exposure to Christianity before I was born again. If someone had asked me if I believed in God, I don't think my answer would have been yes, for it was something that I had never really considered.

When I was born again, I only remember this overwhelming sense of my sinfulness before God. So, there must have been some "belief," right? As Hebrews says, one must believe He is. God by Grace came to me that night and removed my sinful nature. I can remember that as clearly as if it happened yesterday. The next day when I woke up, I knew something very profound had occurred to me, if you had asked me then, I would have said, I feel a freedom that I had never experienced before. I couldn't explain it anymore than that. Now after years of study, I know what took place and can pretty much explain that, yet, can I say I completely understand the power of Salvation? Sure, but I know there is much more to it that being born again.

You have spoken well EricEric, thank you for that. I so agree with you in regards to Mormons and what they believe, may they come to Christ and His saving grace.

God bless and have a wonderful Memorial Day.

dfoJC

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

When I was born again, I only remember this overwhelming sense of my sinfulness before God. So, there must have been some "belief," right? As Hebrews says, one must believe He is.

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I believed in Christ as far back as I can remember (the LDS Christ) I was taught the Bible also as far back as a young child as well from the LDS POV. I believed both but God changed my heart and opened my eyes to the truth and this was clear as day to me. My faith prior to that was in the LDS Jesus but AFTER God changed me I placed my faith in the true Jesus. For me it was God and God alone responsible for my conversion, and therefore the glory goes to God alone.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So you can be saved without being regenerated?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

I already said no. Why don't you read my posts? I'll say it again: regeneration and spiritual rebirth/being saved are the same thing.

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Conversion (repentance and faith)

Erik isn't a person saved after he has repented and placed his faith in Christ?

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

You have had several Christians on here try to tell you that you are mistaken. . . However, you claimed that you were regenerated before you had believed in the true gospel and repented.

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Erik other Christians are here trying to tell you that you are mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Jean Chauvin

Question: What does that mean, regeneration precedes faith.

Answer: Again, it means God regenerates you via your nature, and then you have the ability to choose good, thus giving you faith. Contrary to the free willies, who believe faith precedes regeneration.

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

I know for me, I had about 3 months of exposure to Christianity before I was born again.

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I think the Bible talks about the path of your salvation like this:

We are saved by Grace though faith.
Faith comes by hearing,
Hearing by the word of God.


lets break it down:
Grace is the thing that saves us.

Grace = is favor where none is called for, none is owed, none is expected.


The path Grace takes to save us is faith.

faith= is seeing where you cant see, knowing what cant be known...trusting what cant be pointed to.

So where does our faith come from?

Faith comes from Hearing Jesus speak to our hearts. hearing the knock at the door of our heart....listening to that Voice of Christ speak to us and call un to himself. This is where that general call we read about in the Bible for all men to come to the cross, suddenly calls us by name....its no longer a story about people recorded in a book, its about ourselves.

and where does hearing come from?

The Bible.....the Word....the written and spoken word that God has given us to show Himself to us...



So because of Grace, the word reaches you...
a verse here, a spoken word there, a message about jesus, a fact you think about...a story that reaches you.

This sinks down into the good earth that your heart is. and grows.

The result is that the dry words of the Bible become living words in your life as you now hear them come alive to you. The calling of Christ is heard by your heart to join with Jesus.

This props you to have trust that the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible will be able to save you just as is talked about in the church and recorded in the Bible.
You see the work of God in this world ...you see yourself as "His"....and He is "Your God and savior"........

and the church population has increased by another number.....

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

I had about 3 months of exposure to Christianity before I was born again.

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dfoJC

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I am glad to see you on here dfoJC and hope you will continue to participate. Your posts are excellent and very scriptural.

Faith comes by the hearing of the word of God. I believe exposure to the Truth over time brings about illumination that we are sinners in need of a Savior.

Romans 10:17: So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..

Hopefully our witness on this forum will help the lds to see the Truth.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Erik other Christians are here trying to tell you that you are mistaken.

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Billy, the member you quoted from subscribes to Calvinism. What do you think his screen name means? Its the French spelling of John Calvin.

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Originally Posted by ErikErik

Billy, the member you quoted from subscribes to Calvinism. What do you think his screen name means? Its the French spelling of John Calvin.

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Right, And your point?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think the Bible talks about the path of your salvation like this:

We are saved by Grace though faith.
Faith comes by hearing,
Hearing by the word of God.


lets break it down:
Grace is the thing that saves us.

Grace = is favor where none is called for, none is owed, none is expected.


The path Grace takes to save us is faith.

faith= is seeing where you cant see, knowing what cant be known...trusting what cant be pointed to.

So where does our faith come from?

Faith comes from Hearing Jesus speak to our hearts. hearing the knock at the door of our heart....listening to that Voice of Christ speak to us and call un to himself. This is where that general call we read about in the Bible for all men to come to the cross, suddenly calls us by name....its no longer a story about people recorded in a book, its about ourselves.

and where does hearing come from?

The Bible.....the Word....the written and spoken word that God has given us to show Himself to us...



So because of Grace, the word reaches you...
a verse here, a spoken word there, a message about jesus, a fact you think about...a story that reaches you.

This sinks down into the good earth that your heart is. and grows.

The result is that the dry words of the Bible become living words in your life as you now hear them come alive to you. The calling of Christ is heard by your heart to join with Jesus.

This props you to have trust that the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible will be able to save you just as is talked about in the church and recorded in the Bible.
You see the work of God in this world ...you see yourself as "His"....and He is "Your God and savior"........

and the church population has increased by another number.....

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Thank you Alan for your observations. The night I was born again the Word was preached, in a way that I had never heard before. As I mentioned my only exposure to Christianity was a 3 month summer attendance at a Baptist Church some years before.

Everything you speak of is true. The Word becoming alive is probably for me one of the most powerful aspects of following Christ, my first memory verse was Jeremiah 33:3, "call unto me and I will answer thee and show you great and mighty things which thou knowest not." Wow, how true that has been over the years.

Take care, and again, thanks for your perspective,

dfoJC

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Originally Posted by Billyray

People on this board throw around the term Christian verses non Christian. What exactly are the requirements to be a Christian?

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Since the topic of this board is Mormonism, the only relevant response is to identify what Mormonism requires to meet the implications of that appelative.

According to Mormonism, one must

• pay feilty to Joseph Smith
• swear loyalty to the LDS church
• wear special underwear
• learn secret p***words, handshakes and "tokens" (gesticular signs) in a secret initiation rite and
• believe that there really was a vast civilization somewhere in the Western Hemisphere (Mormons cannot tell us exactly WHERE), that was populated by millions of Jewish American Indians who transmitted their entire religious tradition through ONE copy of ONE book of alleged Hebrew "scriptures", supposedly written in "Egyptian" and
• These Jewish American Indians somehow operated a "Christian" "Church" and quoted the New Testament liberally hundreds of years before Christ himself was even born

...among other absurdities.

If Mormons were right and the above really was the requriement for being a Christian ...well, I guess I could never be a "Christian".

thanks anyway

-BH

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You have absolutely not defined it. That is why I have asked you over and over again. Maybe if you define it we can understand each other's position a little bit better.

Define

1. Conversion

2. Regeneration/born again

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Bump for Sword or Erik for an answer.

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

Thank you Alan for your observations. The night I was born again ......

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Thanks for reminding me of a an important fact...
There are some many guys who have all kinds of lists and systems that describe salvation and how it occurs....

its important to remember that in some cases, the journey from being lost to being found takes one night....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

its important to remember that in some cases, the journey from being lost to being found takes one night....

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Who would disagree with that Alan? I don't think anyone.

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Originally Posted by dfoJC

Thank you Alan for your observations.

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Its fun to write to you.

If you got any questions for me to chew on....just let me hear em.

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Originally Posted by TheSword99

. . .What he does predestine is that those who choose Christ. . .

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So you pick yourself then God predestines you?