Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Billyray

They may not understand right from wrong but they still sin. And yet they sin and are saved without baptism.

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Because they are not accountable. They are saved through the Atonement of Christ.

One cannot be a sinner unless they are accountable for sin.

Billy--you believe infants are sinners.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.

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So infants do not need the atonement of Christ is they are sinless?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Because they are not accountable. They are saved through the Atonement of Christ.

One cannot be a sinner unless they are accountable for sin.

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A person who breaks a commandment is called what?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What do you call a 7 year old who sins?

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Depends on what his name is.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

One cannot be a sinner unless they are accountable for sin.

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If a young child goes into a store and steals a candy bar that child broke a law but is not accountable for his crime.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Because they are not accountable. They are saved through the Atonement of Christ.

One cannot be a sinner unless they are accountable for sin.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

A person who breaks a commandment is called what?

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For one, Billyray--infants do not break commandments. They do not even know how, or what a commandment is.

Those who have reached accountability--sin.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

For one, Billyray--infants do not break commandments. They do not even know how, or what a commandment is.

Those who have reached accountability--sin.

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Can a person including a child break a commandment and not know that they are breaking a commandment?

Is it a sin to break a commandment if you do not know that it is a commandment?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
One cannot be a sinner unless they are accountable for sin.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If a young child goes into a store and steals a candy bar that child broke a law but is not accountable for his crime.

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But yet--you have infants, who have never stole anything---as sinners.

I think, per LDS theology, one can "transgress" without actually sinning. If children are not held accountable, then it would seem that Christ's atonement is covering their "transgressions".

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But yet--you have infants, who have never stole anything---as sinners.

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Romans tells us all have sinned.

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Originally Posted by Libby

I think, per LDS theology, one can "transgress" without actually sinning.

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If a child steals a candy bar is that breaking the law?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If a child steals a candy bar is that breaking the law?

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Of course.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
For one, Billyray--infants do not break commandments. They do not even know how, or what a commandment is.

Those who have reached accountability--sin.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can a person including a child break a commandment and not know that they are breaking a commandment?

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Again, Billyray--children, as infants, cannot break a commandment. They do not even know what a commandment is.

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Is it a sin to break a commandment if you do not know that it is a commandment?

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No, not in the case of infants. They have no concept of that idea whatsoever.

Again--can you give us an example of how an infant can sin--seeing that you believe they are sinners?

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Originally Posted by Libby

Of course.

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The same applies to a person who breaks a commandment. That is a sin. Accountability is a different issue.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans tells us all have sinned.

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Then you would not mind sharing with us just how an infant can sin? What would be an example of their sins?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again, Billyray--children, as infants, cannot break a commandment. They do not even know what a commandment is.

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Can you break a commandment and not know that you are breaking a commandment?

The issue is that you are mixing up breaking a commandment and accountability. A child can break a commandment and thus commit a sin and yet may not be accountable because he did not know right from wrong.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The same applies to a person who breaks a commandment. That is a sin. Accountability is a different issue.

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Sure, I understand that. Do you believe everyone, regardless of their mental abilities, are accountable for sin?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The same applies to a person who breaks a commandment. That is a sin. Accountability is a different issue.

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Billyray--you have stated that infants are sinners. That is an accountability issue.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you break a commandment and not know that you are breaking a commandment?

The issue is that you are mixing up breaking a commandment and accountability. A child can break a commandment and thus commit a sin and yet may not be accountable because he did not know right from wrong.

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Please share with us what commandment you believe that infants break.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you have stated that infants are sinners. That is an accountability issue.

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Yeah, I was going to mention that, as well. I understand being born with a "sin nature" (the potential to sin), but babies don't sin. I have seen some Christians claim that a baby crying, when it is hungry, is "sin", because it acts "selfishly"...which is perfectly ridiculous, IMO.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

The LDS do not believe infants are sinners.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So infants do not need the atonement of Christ is they are sinless?

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The LDS believe that infants are without condemnation because of the Atonement.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Billyray--you have stated that infants are sinners. That is an accountability issue.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, I was going to mention that, as well. I understand being born with a "sin nature" (the potential to sin), but babies don't sin. I have seen some Christians claim that a baby crying, when it is hungry, is "sin", because it acts "selfishly"...which is perfectly ridiculous, IMO.

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Libby--it's funny that you said that. I had a person relate that exact same thing to me--he described the baby kicking and crying, and attaching that action to sin.

Speak of the belief in absurdities...

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Originally Posted by Libby

Sure, I understand that. Do you believe everyone, regardless of their mental abilities, are accountable for sin?

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My personal opinion is no.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you have stated that infants are sinners. That is an accountability issue.

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No it isn't. You can break a law and be a lawbreaker and yet not be held accountable.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please share with us what commandment you believe that infants break.

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I don't know. But I do know that we are all sinners per Romans 3.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS believe that infants are without condemnation because of the Atonement.

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Since you believe that infants are perfect then why would they need Christ to die for their sins since they don't have any sins?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Speak of the belief in absurdities...

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Romans 3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Can you tell me what this verse says?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The LDS believe that infants are without condemnation because of the Atonement.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Since you believe that infants are perfect then why would they need Christ to die for their sins since they don't have any sins?

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Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

I stated that the infants are without condemnation. The LDS do not believe that infants sin.

And to be sure--you have yet to come up with the first scenario where an infant could possibly sin.

As to the Atonement--all babies are born saved due to the Atonement of Christ. There is a difference between being born saved and Atoning for their sins for their innocence. Little babies have no sin because they do not sin.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't know. But I do know that we are all sinners per Romans 3.

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I don't believe that babies commit sin, but I do believe it's possible that they come into this world with "karma" from past lives. In that sense, I believe Romans.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I was wondering--what do these words mean to you?:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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First off, this verse is referring to Jesus Christ and HE is the author of salvation, for there is no other way under heaven, where by man CAN be saved. What it means is that we must believe in Jesus and we obey Him because we believe that He was sent by God the Father.

John 6:29 says:"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He has sent."

God works to create faith in His children, that is in Jesus Christ, because He has decreed salvation is by grace through faith. Faith is absolutely essential, and so He works to create it in us, trusting His Son. We have to live by faith, not merely profess Jesus Christ. It is necessary that faith be built in us, because our choices are to be made on the basis of faith.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included. It's called the Redemption.

Billyray--you do realize the Atonement happened over 2,000 years ago--right?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included.

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If infants are condemned then they are not perfect. If they were perfect then they wouldn't need a savior.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I was wondering--what do these words mean to you?:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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Originally Posted by neverending

First off, this verse is referring to Jesus Christ and HE is the author of salvation, for there is no other way under heaven, where by man CAN be saved.

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The question is not who is the author of salvation--but why does this salvation go to those on condition of who obeys Him?

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What it means is that we must believe in Jesus and we obey Him because we believe that He was sent by God the Father.

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All that is true--but it still does not preclude the fact that the scripture specifically indicates it is those who obey God that receive of His grace.

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John 6:29 says:"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom He has sent."

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Which does little more than connect obedience with belief. What is your evidence that obedience to Jesus Christ is not an integral component of belief in Christ?

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[COLOR=#000000][LEFT]God works to create faith in His children, that is in Jesus Christ, because He has decreed salvation is by grace through faith.

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Which in no way excludes the fact that faith without works is dead, or that this grace that saves does not go to the obedient in Christ.

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Faith is absolutely essential, and so He works to create it in us, trusting His Son.

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We have to live by faith, not merely profess Jesus Christ.

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Then what other things do you thing necessary for salvation that is inclusive in faith, other than confessing His name?

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It is necessary that faith be built in us, because our choices are to be made on the basis of faith.

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And what are those things that comprise faith, that has to be "built" in us?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question is not who is the author of salvation--but why does this salvation go to those on condition of who obeys Him?

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Lets ***ume that you are right for the sake of discussion. Do you obey him?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
The question is not who is the author of salvation--but why does this salvation go to those on condition of who obeys Him?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Lets ***ume that you are right for the sake of discussion. Do you obey him?

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The question of my obedience can not be the basis of whether the scriptures are true or not.

The question is--are the scriptures true:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"


Let's leave the judgment of personal obedience in the hands of Him it rightfully belongs to--Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Where do you find in my posts where I stated that Christ died for the sins of infants?

Nowhere.

The infants are born saved due to the fact that Christ took away the condemnation of all mankind due to the Fall, not because He Atoned for their sins.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What condemnation do infants have if they are perfect?

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dberrie---None. The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included. It's called the Redemption.

Billyray--you do realize the Atonement happened over 2,000 years ago--right?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If infants are condemned then they are not perfect.

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What part of the above post do you not understand?

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If they were perfect then they wouldn't need a savior.

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They are perfect because they have a Savior.

And that Savior did His work over 2,000 years ago.

What would prevent infants from being perfect now?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What part of the above post do you not understand?

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dberrie--The Atonement took care of the condemnation of ALL men due to the Fall. Infants included.

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The part about infants being condemned. How are infants condemned?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The question of my obedience can not be the basis of whether the scriptures are true or not.

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I take that as no you don't obey him. Who obeys Christ? Can you name a single person?

db: There is nothing else necessary but professing Christ, having a belief in him, just as I quoted John 6:29. Christ never said anything about doing works, only believing. Once one has that belief in Christ and has been saved by His grace, their life should prove their faith in Him. It is that faith that then grows within each Christian and that builds in the believer a desire to do good. How else can we show our faith and love of Christ if we just sit on our back sides and do nothing, but doing good is NOT what saved us, it was our belief!