No A-Z; either 100% T or 100% F

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

In John 10:30 this same argument is also made that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. However in the Greek that is used to translate "one" the gender of the word is neuter not masculine. The masculine would be used to indicate a oneness of person or being,and neuter implies a oneness of purpose.

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What is the reformed egyptain translation, is it masculine or weak girlyman?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

In John 10:30 this same argument is also made that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. However in the Greek that is used to translate "one" the gender of the word is neuter not masculine. The masculine would be used to indicate a oneness of person or being,and neuter implies a oneness of purpose.
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heis=numerically one

hen=we are together

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The basic reason for this choice [of reading] is to be found in John 10:30:“The Father and I are one[” (hen). Note that Jesus is not saying,“The Father and I are numerically one” (heis),but uses a term meaning “we are together” (Greek hen,as used again in v.38:“The Father is in me and I am in the Father”). The union of the Father and Son does not blot out the difference and individuality of each. Union rather supposes differentiation. Through love and through reciprocal communion they are one single thing,the one God-love. [Leonardo Boff,Trinity and Society,trans. Paul Burns (Maryknoll,N.Y.:Orbis,1988),5]



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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

What is the reformed egyptain translation, is it masculine or weak girlyman?:confused:

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:confused: relevance to post?

If you have ever looked into the Greek, you will perhaps more understand the above post.
"weak girly man"? I suppose an attempt to be funny? (let's hope for nothing worse)

a tiny lesson for your benefit...:D

Grammatical Gender of Nouns
Gender, as it relates to nouns and other substantives in the Greek language, does not necessarily refer to "male" and "female". It refers to grammatical gender, which is determined purely by grammatical usage and must be learned by observation. Although nouns referring to people or animals that are obviously "male" or "female" would normally (but not always) be cl***ified as masculine or feminine accordingly, the gender of most nouns seems to be somewhat arbitrary. Every noun must fall into one of three categories of gender: masculine, feminine, or neuter. The fact of gender, when considering a word in isolation, is of little importance to the student of the Greek New Testament. But in ****yzing a sentence as a whole, gender may play a key role, especially when considered along with the adjectives, pronouns, and relative clauses that may be present. Taking note of the gender may alter altogether what a sentence may seem to be saying in English.
For example: "And receive...the sword of the spirit which is the word of God"( Eph 6:17). The word "sword" in Greek is feminine gender and the word "spirit" is neuter gender. So it is important in this sentence to find out what is the antecedent of the relative pronoun "which". (i.e. What is the "which" referring back to?) The word "which" in this sentence is neuter, therefore it is referring back to the word "spirit" and not "sword." Thus this sentence means: "And receive...the sword of the spirit which (spirit) is the word of God." from HERE

happy to ***ist :cool:
with love,
soms

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Everytime you see the word faith you have to add alone. If the apostle Paul wanted to teach faith alone he would have clearly stated it.

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He did. He wrote several times NOT OF WORKS, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. He stresses GRACE and FAITH, and if you subtract "works", which Paul consistently does, that MEANS SOLA FIDE.

Why the lame-O Mormon reindeer game of OBDURATENESS?? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by sunofmysoul

:confused: relevance to post?

If you have ever looked into the Greek, you will perhaps more understand the above post.
"weak girly man"? I suppose an attempt to be funny? (let's hope for nothing worse)

a tiny lesson for your benefit...:D

Grammatical Gender of Nouns
Gender, as it relates to nouns and other substantives in the Greek language, does not necessarily refer to "male" and "female". It refers to grammatical gender, which is determined purely by grammatical usage and must be learned by observation. Although nouns referring to people or animals that are obviously "male" or "female" would normally (but not always) be cl***ified as masculine or feminine accordingly, the gender of most nouns seems to be somewhat arbitrary. Every noun must fall into one of three categories of gender: masculine, feminine, or neuter. The fact of gender, when considering a word in isolation, is of little importance to the student of the Greek New Testament. But in ****yzing a sentence as a whole, gender may play a key role, especially when considered along with the adjectives, pronouns, and relative clauses that may be present. Taking note of the gender may alter altogether what a sentence may seem to be saying in English.
For example: "And receive...the sword of the spirit which is the word of God"( Eph 6:17). The word "sword" in Greek is feminine gender and the word "spirit" is neuter gender. So it is important in this sentence to find out what is the antecedent of the relative pronoun "which". (i.e. What is the "which" referring back to?) The word "which" in this sentence is neuter, therefore it is referring back to the word "spirit" and not "sword." Thus this sentence means: "And receive...the sword of the spirit which (spirit) is the word of God." from HERE

happy to ***ist :cool:
with love,
soms

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wrote all this over girly-man?
Boy, if only Joseph Smith jr had you as a scribe we wouldn't have had all them, it came to p***, in the Book of Mormon. Just think from 1200 or so it came to p***, to maybe 4 or 5, or perhaps 20 or so. Anyways, sunofyoursoul, you are a great trooper, and keep up the good work.
Don't ask, why this came to my mind, because I have no idea.:confused:

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Now hang on there a second, Mesenja: Romans (For we are saved by hope) was written by the same Paul who wrote Ephesians (by grace you are saved through faith).

If the Scolds are correct about Paul REALLY wanting "alone" to be added to his statement on faith, then they must think it's okay to add "alone" wherever the word "HOPE" appears, too. After all, it's the same Paul writing in both verses, so it must be okay to add to both of them.

So, we can conclude that the Bible teaches that salvation comes through HOPE ALONE, with the same amount of surety that it teaches FAITH alone.
If the Scolds object to that, and say that "alone" needs to be deleted from hope, then they have to delete "alone" from FAITH as well.

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Word games which clarify NOTHING, jeff. In Paul's usage, "Hope" means by FAITH. When one has faith, that one HAS HOPE.

Sorry that Paul won't play your Mormon game, jeff.

He said, NOT BY WORKS, ergo it is necessarily By Grace ALONE, by Faith ALONE.

NOT of yourselves.

When are you gonna believe the Biblical text CONTEXTUALLY, and stop superimposing Mormon meaning onto the text thereby SKEWING your understanding?? :eek:

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

In John 10:30 this same argument is also made that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. However in the Greek that is used to translate "one" the gender of the word is neuter not masculine. The masculine would be used to indicate a oneness of person or being,and neuter implies a oneness of purpose.

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Haven't you seen that the Christians here have never said that God is one Person.. He is always been described as Being the three separate person of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.. Three persons one God and yes they are of the same essence..

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

I can give you Chapter and verse for every doctrine stated in the creed.. Can you do that for all the doctrines of mormonism? How about pointing out the verses that support all he points in the mormon creed? Lets look:

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will dreign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal gglory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we fhope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, ilovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

So is the Father the only God? Who does this creed say that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are? Do we still not all die because of Adam's sin? (1 Cor 15:22). You still say that we are saved by works though I have shown here again and again that salvation is not of works but only through God's grace by faith in Jesus..

There are no laws no ordinances in the Gospel.. Look for yourself it's found in 1 Cor 15:1-8. It's all about Jesus and His work not about what we must do..
No one is said to have laid hands on Peter or any of the other Apostles including Matthias to give them any authority.. The Holy Spirit often came at the touch of the Apostles but it was not a requirement. At Pentecost tongues of fire came onto those in the upper room, and then again to the household of Cornelius the centurion. No one even touched Cornelius or his household members (Acts 10:44)..

Have you ever heard of an office of pastor or evangelist.. Oh yes I know that it is said that a Bishop is the same thing as a pastor but they are NOT called so.. And what is a mormon evangelist? Is that a church calling or do people like you just take up that calling on their own? You have added the Priesthood of Aaron to what you teach the "Primitive Church" (We call it the 1st century Church). According to the writer to the Hebrews the priesthood was changed from Aaron's priesthood to that of Jesus'.. There we read that Jesus was of Judah of which nothing was said of Priesthood.. Read it (Heb 7:14)..

Jesus told us that His word would never p*** away but this creed says the word is mistranslated even in it's original language.. Ok it doesn't say that in the creed but every mormon I have ever spoken to seems to think that evil men changed the m****cripts of the Bible.. Because of the sheer number of m****cripts that would be an impossible task BTW.. Still mormonism points out that the Bible has been perverted but they can't point out where these perversions lay..

What do mormons believe the gift of tongues are.. Yes to have many of different languages understand what you are teaching but Paul tells us of an unknown tongue.. Don't mormons make fun of what they call "Holy Rollers"? YES.. Then they deny the spiritual gift of tongues.. How is that?

Is not Jesus the full revelation of the Father? Did not Paul speaking though the Holy Spirit say he had FULLY PREACHED THE GOSPEL OF JESUS? YES and YES. What more in there than the Gospel. The salvation of our souls that needs to ever be added to? Jesus either did it all or we have no hope.. Heck Smith even called the BofM the FULLNESS of the EVERLASTING GOSPEL.. How can there be more than a FULLNESS?

The New City is said to come down from heaven on the same site as the present Jerusalem.. It is a city not built with hands.. It is NOT in the AMERICAS..

If you really believed in allowing all men to worship as they wish you wouldn't have so many missionaries out there to bring people into LDS membership.. And you wouldn't be calling our teachers corrupt and our beliefs an abomination in God's sight (JSH 1:19)


Mormonism from the time Joseph Smith took Fanny Alger as his polygamous wife until the Manifesto was breaking the law. So was Smith, Young, Taylor or Woodruff men to honored or sustained the law or even taught that the law should be obeyed?

And lastly look at how the mormons here on WM call me dishonest for saying things like Joseph Smith lied when I have proof that he did.. or that mormonism teaches that God the Father was once a man who had a God who had a God... Or that mormonism teaches contradiction. Saying that God commanded Adam to keep two laws that both couldn't possible be keep, and yet teach that God gives no commandment to man unless He prepares a way to accomplish what He commands. Sorry but your creed is NOT BIBLICAL or logical.. It is NOT of God but of man.. IHS jim

Almost 70% of your post it is totally irrelevant. I never said that God is one Person. I said that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. The Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father. This means that they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are equally God.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Well I don't know how much clearer Paul could have written it. Mesenja give us your explanation of this verse.

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Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

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That would have made it crystal clear however he didn't do so as that would have contradicted his fellow apostle James who said "Even so faith,if it hath not works,is dead, being alone. "

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

That would have made it crystal clear however he didn't do so as that would have contradicted his fellow apostle James who said "Even so faith,if it hath not works,is dead, being alone. "

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Ephesians 2

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

So what do you think about these two verses, what do they mean?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---YOU forgot that "works" probably referred to the statutes of the Torah, NOT to the commandments that Jesus gave as part of the NEW covenant. NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus say "These are my suggestions, and you don't need to obey them."

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

Where does it specify the Torah as you describe?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

Where does it specify the Torah as you describe?

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Welcome to Sunday School. I will be your teacher today. Paul's epistles mention basically 3 different kinds of works: Evil deeds, aka sins; good works, aka charity for others, which he always spoke highly of; and "works of The Law," which have no salvific value.

Here are some examples of Paul mentioning the latter:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

If you study even basic ancient Judeo-Christian history, you should come across mention of the Torah--aka the Pentateuch or first 5 books of the Tanakh. Ancient Christians and Jews referred to the Torah as "The Law" because in it are found the Mosaic laws by which the Israelites were ruled. Basically, the part of the Tanakh that includes the books of Joshua through Malachi is called The Prophets. Thus, when you see New Testament mentions of "the Law" or "the Prophets," that's what they are talking about--those two parts of the Masoretic Jewish scriptures.


It was The Law--the legalistic rules of the Torah--that Jesus referred to in His Sermon on the Mount when He said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Jesus declared that for Christians, The Law was superseded by His new commandments, ala "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..."

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

Welcome to Sunday School. I will be your teacher today. . .If you study even basic ancient Judeo-Christian history, you should come across mention of the Torah--aka the Pentateuch or first 5 books of the Tanakh. Ancient Christians and Jews referred to the Torah as "The Law" because in it is found the Mosaic laws by which the Israelites were ruled. Basically, the part of the Tanakh that includes the books of Joshua through Malachi are called The Prophets. Thus, when you see New Testament mentions of "the Law" or "the Prophets," that's what they are talking about--those two parts of the Masoretic Jewish scriptures.


It was The Law--the legalistic rules of the Torah--that Jesus referred to in His Sermon on the Mount when He said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Jesus declared that for Christians, The Law was superseded by His new commandments, ala "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..."

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

Your little lesson didn't really come together in the end. Give us the bottom line explanation for this verse.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

Welcome to Sunday School. I will be your teacher today. . .If you study even basic ancient Judeo-Christian history, you should come across mention of the Torah--aka the Pentateuch or first 5 books of the Tanakh. Ancient Christians and Jews referred to the Torah as "The Law" because in it are found the Mosaic laws by which the Israelites were ruled

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Jeff, do you really think that I am unaware of this?

It's not that difficult to understand: Paul is saying that what makes grace salvifically efficacious for a person is living faith--not the observance of the rituals and superficial rules of the Torah. The Torah allowed you to hate your enemies, for example, but if you want to be saved, Jesus said you need to love not only your friends, but your enemies as well. In that sense, obeying Jesus' commandments is "harder" to do than doing the works of The Law.

If Paul had been saying that a person could get saved by mere belief, then he would have been saying that dead faith--faith devoid of charitible deeds (good works) for one's fellowman--could save a person. And that would have DIRECTLY contradicted what St. James taught in HIS epistle.

So obviously, Paul was NOT saying that a person could get saved by mere faith without charity--Paul was saying that faith that is ALIVE is what makes grace efficacious, and not the observance of the works of The Law (Torah).

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

It's not that difficult to understand: Paul is saying that what makes grace salvifically efficacious for a person is living faith--not the observance of the rituals and superficial rules of the Torah. The Torah allowed you to hate your enemies, for example, but if you want to be saved, Jesus said you need to love not only your friends, but your enemies as well. In that sense, obeying Jesus' commandments is "harder" to do than doing the works of The Law.

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

Wow Paul supposedly said a lot in those 2 verses. I guess I can't see the part that you are speaking about.

Here is what is said
1. Saved through faith
2. NOT of yourselves
3. NOT of works

Not of yourselves and Not of works is pretty inclusive. This verse is very clear as written and salvation is NOT of yourselves and NOT of works.


But I am still interested in you theory here. When it says NOT of works can you give me a specific list of the works that are being discussed in this scripture?

If you need to learn what all of the works of The Law entail, read the book of Exodus. It's part of that Bible from which your beliefs derive exclusively.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

If you need to learn what all of the works of The Law entail, read the book of Exodus. It's part of that Bible from which your beliefs derive exclusively.

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Actually I just finished exodus a couple of months ago and in fact I just finished the Torah last week and I am getting ready to start Joshua. But back to the topic at hand. When it says NOT of works, what works are included and what works are excluded?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Actually I just finished exodus a couple of months ago and in fact I just finished the Torah last week and I am getting ready to start Joshua.

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---Then you shouldn't need to keep coming to us LDS to learn the answers.

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But back to the topic at hand. When it says NOT of works, what works are included and what works are excluded?

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---The works of categories 1 and 3 would be included in the list of works that do NOT contribute toward one's salvation, obviously. CHARITY--good deeds done for one's fellowman out of love for God and love for others--HAS to be excluded, unless you think Paul lied when he said that even if you have all faith in the world, if you don't have charity, you are nothing, and that charity is greater than faith.

(It's okay if you don't know those verses--they are in the New Testament, and you are still in the Old Testament. There is a lot of good stuff to learn if you continue reading.)

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Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

wrote all this over girly-man?
Boy, if only Joseph Smith jr had you as a scribe we wouldn't have had all them, it came to p***, in the Book of Mormon. Just think from 1200 or so it came to p***, to maybe 4 or 5, or perhaps 20 or so. Anyways, sunofyoursoul, you are a great trooper, and keep up the good work.
Don't ask, why this came to my mind, because I have no idea.:confused:

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well, while others might put such posts as what you wrote on ignore,
I decided to answer it. and draw attention to the irrelevance with some dedicated humor. :D
sooooo....
perhaps if one keeps to the topic at hand, and doesn't try to beat up the opposing side with ridiculous low **** irrelevance...

we could use my "great trooper" and hard working skills for better purposes...:D

with love,
silly soms

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Then you shouldn't need to keep coming to us LDS to learn the answers.

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It still amazes me at how different the Bible is compared to how Mormons portray the Bible. For example the priesthood issue. LDS believe that Adam had the Melchizedek priesthood. Where do you find that in the Bible?

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---The works of categories 1 and 3 would be included in the list of works that do NOT contribute toward one's salvation, obviously. CHARITY--good deeds done for one's fellowman out of love for God and love for others--HAS to be excluded, unless you think Paul lied when he said that even if you have all faith in the world, if you don't have charity, you are nothing, and that charity is greater than faith.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

Paul's epistles mention basically 3 different kinds of works: Evil deeds, aka sins; good works, aka charity for others, which he always spoke highly of; and "works of The Law," which have no salvific value.

Reference verse
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works lest any man should boast.

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Jeff's list of works

1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

I am still confused about your explaination. What works are required for salvation? And when Paul says NOT of Works which ones is he referring to? Can you use the numbers that I have listed above which was taken from your previous post.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

Almost 70% of your post it is totally irrelevant. I never said that God is one Person. I said that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. The Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father. This means that they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are equally God.

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That is what I am saying too.. And my post compares a creed of Christianity to that of the creed of mormonism.. I have pointed out that the Nicene creed is Biblical but that the mormon creed violates the Bible at every turn.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

That is what I am saying too. And my post compares a creed of Christianity to that of the creed of Mormonism. I have pointed out that the Nicene creed is Biblical but that the Mormon creed violates the Bible at every turn. IHS Jim

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Most of it as I said completely off topic and therefore irrelevant. No Jim that was not all of what you were saying. You pointed out to me "that the Christians here have ever said that God is one Person." When I corrected you and pointed out that what I actually posted was that the "Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father" in other words meaning that "they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are therefore both "equally God" you tried to back peddle and say this was your position all along.

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

In John 10:30 this same argument is also made that Jesus and the Father are one in essence.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Haven't you seen that the Christians here have never said that God is one Person. He is always been described as Being the three separate person of the Father,Son,and the Holy Spirit. Three persons one God and yes they are of the same essence. IHS Jim

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Originally Posted by Mesenja

I never said that God is one Person. I said that Jesus and the Father are one in essence. The Nicene Creed describes Jesus as being ****oúsios with God the Father. This means that they are of the "same substance" or "one in essence" and are equally God.

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Originally Posted by James Banta

That is what I am saying too. IHS Jim

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As you can see what you posted before is not your position now. Yes you believe in the Nicene Creed after i took the time to explain it to you. But you have totally misrepresented my position and as your past history shows will refuse to admit it. Surprise me Jim and admit your mistake. Oh wait that would be apologizing to a Latter-day Saint (Mormon) and admitting that you were wrong and they are right. My mistake Jim. How silly of me to even entertain this possibility.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff's list of works

1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

I am still confused about your explaination.

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---That is okay--you are learning this for the first time I guess. Maybe you gave up too quickly on your learning by quitting the church when you did, and now your only knowledge base comes from Dark-Ages-vintage philosophy, alive and well (alive, at least) in the teachings of Calvinistic Protestantism.

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What works are required for salvation?

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----Why, the ones that Jesus said are inextricably connected with obeying His commandments, of course. I will try to make this really simple for you:

1. Suppose Jesus were to command you to do good for your fellow man (have charity, in other words).
2. Suppose you refused, mocking such a "work" as being unnecessary.
3. Suppose Jesus were to say that those who don't keep His commandments don't love Him, and don't know Him, and aren't His friends.
4. Suppose Jesus ALSO said that loving Him, knowing Him, and being His friend are requirements for eternal life.

Do you now see where your "I don't need no stinkin' charity to get eternal life" at***ude has you headed?

You believe that faith is necessary for salvation--great, wonderful, hurray for you.

St. Paul said that charity is of greater importance THAN FAITH, and more important than hope. IMO, it's more important that believing that God is merely one solitary being with a multiple personality disorder, too.

Where does that leave you, if you go around repeating "I have faith, I have faith, I've got it made according to the Bible" yet you place charity down the list as something of little worth? What would Paul say about your at***ude? Why would you really expect to be standing in the "eternal life receiving line" on Judgment Day?

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And when Paul says NOT of Works which ones is he referring to?

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---Your re-asking for an answer I already handed to you is getting annoying. It feels like I am teaching my Primary cl***.

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Originally Posted by nrajeff

---That is okay--you are learning this for the first time I guess. Maybe you gave up too quickly on your learning by quitting the church when you did, and now your only knowledge base comes from Dark-Ages-vintage philosophy, alive and well (alive, at least) in the teachings of Calvinistic Protestantism.

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You did not answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff's list of works

1. Sins
2. Charity or helping others
3. Works of the Law

What works are required for salvation? And when Paul says NOT of Works which ones is he referring to? Can you use the numbers that I have listed above which was taken from your previous post.

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