Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The verses about David's son touch on this but other than that please tell me where this is found in the Bible?

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We already have.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

We already have.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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ESV Study Bible
1 Cor. 15:22 in Adam all die. See Rom. 5:12, 14–15, 17; Eph. 2:1, 5. in Christ shall all be made alive. See Rom. 5:17, 21; 6:4; Eph. 2:5–6. By divine appointment, Adam represented the whole human race that would follow him, and his sin therefore affected all human beings. Similarly, Christ represented all who would belong to him, and his obedience therefore affected all believers (see note on 1 Cor. 15:23).

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You have a prophet today? What prophesies has he given you?

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2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Prophets don't just give prophecies, they also help us (as Holy Men) understand the scriptures so that we don't walk away misinterpreting them thinking that babies have sinned and may or may not go to hell.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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So no prophesy is that what you are saying? Then why call him a prophet?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

ESV Study Bible
1 Cor. 15:22 in Adam all die. See Rom. 5:12, 14–15, 17; Eph. 2:1, 5. in Christ shall all be made alive. See Rom. 5:17, 21; 6:4; Eph. 2:5–6. By divine appointment, Adam represented the whole human race that would follow him, and his sin therefore affected all human beings. Similarly, Christ represented all who would belong to him, and his obedience therefore affected all believers (see note on 1 Cor. 15:23).

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Yes, Billyray, you have made it clear that your understanding of both your own Bible and your beliefs regarding our beliefs come from commentaries rather than the scriptures themselves. You have also made it abundantly clear that you don't seek the Holy Ghost to understand scriptures which is why you believe newborns sin and may go to hell.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

. . .why you believe newborns sin and may go to hell.

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Just so you know that my personal BELIEF is that they don't go to hell. But I don't make claims that I can't back up with scripture.

BTW what do you think that it means to be IN Christ? Do you think that those who don't follow Christ are IN Christ?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Just so you know that my personal BELIEF is that they don't go to hell. But I don't make claims that I can't back up with scripture.

BTW what do you think that it means to be IN Christ? Do you think that those who don't follow Christ are IN Christ?

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As I noted above--time for you to change the subject (as you have done). And as I said, God is not silent on newborns.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

As I noted above--time for you to change the subject (as you have done). And as I said, God is not silent on newborns.

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What verse do you base that on?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What verse do you base that on?

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This is the problem with only relying on commentaries to understand the Bible. When you do not rely on the Holy Ghost, then you become lost and even the scriptures that explain it, you do not see. You also resist answering questions regarding such things as the water droplet as it may lead you on a path to softening your heart and understanding. I can't help you see what you choose not to see Billyray.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I can't help you see what you choose not to see Billyray.

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Read the verses starting at verse 1 until you come to your proof text and then tell me what this section of scripture is all about. Also identify for me which verse is speaking specifically about infants.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

When you do not rely on the Holy Ghost,

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Every time you use that phrase I can expect a perversion of what the verses actually say.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Read the verses starting at verse 1 until you come to your proof text and then tell me what this section of scripture is all about. Also identify for me which verse is speaking specifically about infants.

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I'll tell you what. Instead of me or Dberrie or any of the others continuing to answer your "unlearned' questions, why not go back and soften your heart and say---hey, this doesn't make sense--why would God call a baby a sinner and say only the faithful (which a baby cannot be) be saved and yet, since you can clearly see that an infant is wonderful and special and hmmm, what did Christ say "suffer the children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Why not pray and ask God in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Ghost to help you. But let me tell you this Billyray, as long as you remain prideful, you will NOT receive an answer.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

why would God call a baby a sinner and say only the faithful (which a baby cannot be) be saved

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Can you quote my post where you think that I made the claim that a baby CAN'T possibly be saved?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
All infants are born saved--due to the work of the Savior.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Without the sacrifice of Jesus could a baby go to heaven? Or would that baby be condemned? If so why?

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No person, regardless of age--could enter into heaven without the work of the Savior.

The reason being--there was no resurrection until the Savior conquered death, and the doors of eternal life was shut to mankind due to sin.

All were condemned due to the Fall. Which is exactly what the scriptures state:

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why not pray and ask God in the name of Jesus Christ and by the power of the Holy Ghost to help you.

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I have and he has directed me out of the false doctrines of Mormonism.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All were condemned due to the Fall.

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Including infants. So why is a baby condemned?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you quote my post where you think that I made the claim that a baby CAN'T possibly be saved?

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You stated that infants are sinners. Which means there has to be a way to deliver that infant as a sinner.

If indeed you believe that infants are sinners--what delivers them as sinners?

For those who have reached the age of reason--they can have faith in Christ. An infant cannot. They do not understand any such principle.

So--if they die--what delivers them as sinners?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

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That is correct. We are all condemned. And those who place their faith in Christ will be justified and saved. For children who are unable to make a decision because of their immaturity I trust Christ that he will save them--but I don't have a verse to prove that.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Including infants. So why is a baby condemned?

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Billyray--you have started your circling patterns.

I'll tell you what--please give any quote of mine that states that infants are condemned since the Atonement--and we will go from there.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you have started your circling patterns.

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Because your position doesn't make sense.

What prevents a baby from returning to God without the atonement if there is nothing wrong with that individual baby?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

That is correct. We are all condemned.

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No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall. That is why Jesus Christ gave the free gift to all mankind through His Atonement--He took away the condemnation of the Fall from all men.

Please do notice the "came upon all men" in Romans5:18. Past tense. Complete when Christ finished it. All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall.

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Nope everyone who places their faith in Christ is justified. Those who don't place their faith in Christ are not justified and will go to hell.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

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If all men are justified then all men will go to heaven. Came upon all men speaks about all men who are in Christ.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Nope everyone who places their faith in Christ is justified. Those who don't place their faith in Christ are not justified and will go to hell.

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Your confusing mortal man's personal choices with the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall.

The faith of mortal mankind had nothing to do with the consequences of the Fall. Those consequences of the Fall came upon all men regardless of man's faith.

That is why it took Jesus Christ and His Atonement to overcome death and hell. Man could not do it.

Because of the Atonement--all men can come unto Christ and be saved--through faith in Christ.

They are two separate things--the Atonement made salvation possible, by taking away the condemnation due to the Fall.

The condemnation is taken away through Christ's Atonement, and had nothing to do with man's faith. Christ alone.

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

That "one' is Jesus Christ--and none other.

Eternal life is given to those who receive of His grace through faith in Christ.(obedience to Him)

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

They are two separate things--the Atonement made salvation possible, by taking away the condemnation due to the Fall.

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And those who place their faith in Christ will be justified and those who don't won't.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

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Those who place their faith in Christ will be justified.

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dberrie----No, Billyray--we were released from the condemnation of the Fall. That is why Jesus Christ gave the free gift to all mankind through His Atonement--He took away the condemnation of the Fall from all men.

Please do notice the "came upon all men" in Romans5:18. Past tense. Complete when Christ finished it. All men made partakers of it when He finished it. Free gift to all men.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

If all men are justified then all men will go to heaven. Came upon all men speaks about all men who are in Christ.

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You are trying to stuff your personal theology on the scriptures that state no such thing.

Again--what are you missing in this scripture?

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

You have a dog in the fight--your theology demands that this Atonement be only for a few--the elect--and so the editing begins. Add whatever is necessary for the scriptures to conform to your theology--cover and cancel those that do not fit--reinterpret those which contradict....

If one would notice--the scripture in Romans5:18 has a context--here it is:

It compares two things: 1) The condemnation of ALL MEN due to the Fall. 2) The free gift to ALL MEN due to the Atonement.

Notice any similarities there? ALL MEN. We know that all men were condemned due to the Fall--but Billyray has to alter that on the other side of the equation, because it does not conform to his theology.

So much for the edit programmers.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

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It brings us back to the term justification. Define that word for me. Do you think that justification means resurrection in this sentence?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

It brings us back to the term justification. Define that word for me. Do you think that justification means resurrection in this sentence?

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Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

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So the definition of justification is?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So the definition of justification is?

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It means the demands of justice have been met.

In the verse you gave above, it means the demands have been met in regards to the fall of Adam with the atonement of Jesus Christ. Spelled out step by step;

Romans5:18--"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(the offense of Adam meant that all men die)

even so by the righteousness of one
(the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ)

the free gift (something that Christ did not have to do)

came upon all men (everyone who dies because of the Fall of Adam)

unto the justification of life
(the demands of justice have been met and therefore the penalty of death is now undone and life returns.)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

It means the demands of justice have been met.

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So if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of God because of Christ's sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of God because of Christ's sacrifice.

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What? See above.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Justification in and of itself does not mean resurrection, but "justification of life" does mean resurrection.

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So "justification of life" means resurrection of life.

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Originally Posted by bigjulie

what? See above.

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Originally Posted by billyray

so if a person has justification then that person is declared righteous in the eyes of god because of christ's sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So "justification of life" means resurrection of life.

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It means resurrection from being dead. The penalty of the fall of Adam is death--therefore, as the penalty for Adam's sin was paid for by Christ---justification for the penalty is to remove the penalty which means resurrection from the dead. Because the penalty was paid, now we are judged "according to our own sins and not Adam's transgression." Which means if you suffer the second death, it has nothing to do with Adam, but your own sins.

Blue Letter Bible
Justification

Strong's G1347 - dikaiōsis
δικαίωσις

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G1347&t=KJV

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Blue Letter Bible
Justification

Strong's G1347 - dikaiōsis
δικαίωσις

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G1347&t=KJV

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Here is your commentary again. Looking at your above definition, a baby would not then be held "guilty" for Adam's transgression but would be "free from guilt and acceptable to him." In other words---the penalty of death that they pay (through no fault of their own) is removed--which would be the only just and fair thing to do. Now as that child grows and sins, they are held accountable for their own sins alone--as the sin of Adam has been justified by Christ.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

--justification for the penalty is to remove the penalty which means resurrection from the dead. .

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So the individual is not justified.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is your commentary again.

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Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

So you disagree with the definition of this word?