Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

So you disagree with the definition of this word?

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See above.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

See above.

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Is that a yes or a no?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So the individual is not justified.

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What?? I think you are reading the verse fit your definition of justification rather than what it is clearly stating and what justification means in terms of the legal since---which if you read---the Bible if full of legal terms.

And I don't even know what "abjuring" means and when I looked it up, it doesn't fit---so no---I don't agree with the Blue Letter Bible completely on this one. ---Abstaining to be righteous?? Making and oath to be righteous??? Huh?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

What?? I think you are reading the verse fit your definition of justification rather than what it is clearly stating and what justification means in terms of the legal since-

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If a person is justified is that person innocent or guilty?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Abstaining to be righteous?? Making and oath to be righteous??? Huh?

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How about a standard Dictionary definition from Merriam

Definition of JUSTIFICATION
1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justification

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What does justify mean in this verse?

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

How is justify used in this verse?

Galatians 3:8 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

What does justify mean in this verse?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

What does justified mean in this verse?

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Notice the phrase "they which receive". Does this indicate that this gift goes to every person OR that this gift goes to all who receive him?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

What does justified mean in this verse?

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This refers to those who have sinned (not the sins of Adam) whose sins are justified by their faith (which is manifest by obedience). In other words, Christ paid the price for their sins on the condition that they follow Him.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

This refers to those who have sinned (not the sins of Adam) whose sins are justified by their faith (which is manifest by obedience). In other words, Christ paid the price for their sins on the condition that they follow Him.

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Do you realize that this whole chapter is about justification by faith?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Notice the phrase "they which receive". Does this indicate that this gift goes to every person OR that this gift goes to all who receive him?

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Here is the whole paragraph:

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (In this verse, Paul is speaking to the fact that because of Adam, all "have sinned"--in this phrase, Paul is using the term sin to mean all have fallen from God or all men are in a fallen state.)

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (This speaks to the fact that sin is defined by the law. When there is no law, there is no breaking the law or sin. So, until Adam transgressed or broke the law, there was no sin in the world.)


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (This speaks of the fact that even though men had not sinned, they still paid the penalty of the sin of Adam which is death. Do you see also how Paul explains what he means by "all have sinned" even though then in a few more verses he states "even over them that have not sinned"---he is not condracting his previous statement but explaining what this "sin" is---basically, having fallen as did Adam.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(In this verse, Paul explains that the offense (the fall of Adam comes upon men through nothing they do, likewise, so is the gift of the atonement to overcome death. Now, keep in mind that he uses the term "many" but he could easily use the term "all" as "all" men die--except for a few such as Elijah or Enoch. So, whom ever has died, Christ gives this gift of grace to overcome death.) Paul also lets the reader understand that Christ gives us more grace that just the grace He gave to Adam as most of us sin on our own and therefore need more grace than just the grace given for the death or fall of Adam.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (And this is a direct comparison....we die, not because of something we did (but Adam did). Likewise, we live and not because of something we did (but Christ did).) Paul also brilliantly explains the atonement further here---to those who understand that they, having been justified for the sin of Adam, still sin on their own and so are now condemned again. So, Christ's atonement doesn't just atone for one sin, but for many.


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Paul continues the thought here---explaining that Christ atonement did not just cover the sin of Adam, but all the offenses committed by men if they come unto Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (Now Paul is going back to the start---repeating himself so that his teachings are clear. He is explaining once again that the atonement covered the sins of Adam and now all men will be resurrected.)


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (And now he is explaining once again the second part of the atonement, that is that Christ covered the sins each man has committed for the righteous.)


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (This now goes back to the very start, that until Adam died, the law and sin was not in the world---but now that the law is in the world and men can and do sin---so so much more can the grace of God apply.)


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Paul sums it up explaining that the sin of Adam caused death and thereby sin came into the world---or that sin "reigned unto death"---but now grace reigns---first to overcome death and second to bring about eternal life.--both explained by Paul above.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Do you realize that this whole chapter is about justification by faith?

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It is about that and why men no longer pay for the sin of Adam.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

It is about that and why men no longer pay for the sin of Adam.

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All are condemned. Those who place their faith in Christ will be resurrected to life. Those who don't place their faith in Christ will be resurrected to ****ation.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is the whole paragraph:

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (In this verse, Paul is speaking to the fact that because of Adam, all "have sinned"--in this phrase, Paul is using the term sin to mean all have fallen from God or all men are in a fallen state.)

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (This speaks to the fact that sin is defined by the law. When there is no law, there is no breaking the law or sin. So, until Adam transgressed or broke the law, there was no sin in the world.)


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (This speaks of the fact that even though men had not sinned, they still paid the penalty of the sin of Adam which is death. Do you see also how Paul explains what he means by "all have sinned" even though then in a few more verses he states "even over them that have not sinned"---he is not condracting his previous statement but explaining what this "sin" is---basically, having fallen as did Adam.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(In this verse, Paul explains that the offense (the fall of Adam comes upon men through nothing they do, likewise, so is the gift of the atonement to overcome death. Now, keep in mind that he uses the term "many" but he could easily use the term "all" as "all" men die--except for a few such as Elijah or Enoch. So, whom ever has died, Christ gives this gift of grace to overcome death.) Paul also lets the reader understand that Christ gives us more grace that just the grace He gave to Adam as most of us sin on our own and therefore need more grace than just the grace given for the death or fall of Adam.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (And this is a direct comparison....we die, not because of something we did (but Adam did). Likewise, we live and not because of something we did (but Christ did).) Paul also brilliantly explains the atonement further here---to those who understand that they, having been justified for the sin of Adam, still sin on their own and so are now condemned again. So, Christ's atonement doesn't just atone for one sin, but for many.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Paul continues the thought here---explaining that Christ atonement did not just cover the sin of Adam, but all the offenses committed by men if they come unto Christ.)

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (Now Paul is going back to the start---repeating himself so that his teachings are clear. He is explaining once again that the atonement covered the sins of Adam and now all men will be resurrected.)


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (And now he is explaining once again the second part of the atonement, that is that Christ covered the sins each man has committed for the righteous.)


Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (This now goes back to the very start, that until Adam died, the law and sin was not in the world---but now that the law is in the world and men can and do sin---so so much more can the grace of God apply.)


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. (Paul sums it up explaining that the sin of Adam caused death and thereby sin came into the world---or that sin "reigned unto death"---but now grace reigns---first to overcome death and second to bring about eternal life.--both explained by Paul above.

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And the whole chapter is about justification by faith.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (This speaks to the fact that sin is defined by the law. When there is no law, there is no breaking the law or sin. So, until Adam transgressed or broke the law, there was no sin in the world.)

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That is not what this is speaking about. There was no law pre Moses.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

That is not what this is speaking about. There was no law pre Moses.

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Oh, Billyray---you just gave a big insight into how little you understand or even read the old testament. Yes, read when God gave the law to Moses---God clearly explains that God gave "their fathers' one law, but they are going to receive a different law. Therefore, the ten commandments is actually clearly defined as a law different from the law given before meaning that what Moses received was something new compared to what Adam, Noah, Enoch, or Abraham received. (Who clearly make up "the fathers" of Moses).

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (This speaks of the fact that even though men had not sinned,

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Men did sin but they were not accountable because there was no law.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

-God clearly explains that God gave "their fathers' one law, but they are going to receive a different law.

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Give me a list of what commandments they were bound to pre law?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And the whole chapter is about justification by faith.

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This whole chapter explains WHY the atonement and what it did-both for the justification of death unto life and the justification of sin unto righteousness.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Give me a list of what commandments they were bound to pre law?

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It doesn't matter what they were--what matters is God clearly tells Moses that He is going to give Israel a different law then the one He gave "the fathers."

And I can tell you that because I am studying this in Hebrew right now. And I can't give it to you in English because I have made a promise to my teacher to only read it in Hebrew. So, I can tell you, reading the Torah or the law in Hebrew---you are absolutely and totally wrong--no doubts, no questions, period.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, read when God gave the law to Moses---God clearly explains that God gave "their fathers' one law, but they are going to receive a different law.

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Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

It doesn't matter what they were--what matters is God clearly tells Moses that He is going to give Israel a different law then the one He gave "the fathers."

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Give me a list of all of the laws that they were under pre Moses.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Give me a list of all of the laws that they were under pre Moses.

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Billyray--you are going to have to take this one up with God as He is the one who told Moses that He was going to give them a different law from the law that HE GAVE Moses' "fathers."

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

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The first law was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is the law. Once the law was given--sin came upon the world when Adam broke the law. Now, are you going to try to argue that the garden of Eden was not of this planet?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray--you are going to have to take this one up with God

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I have and I know that what you believe is false.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

The first law was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is the law.

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Which was in the garden.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I have and I know that what you believe is false.

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No, it is scriptural--just read the OT. :)

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Now, are you going to try to argue that the garden of Eden was not of this planet?

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Was it a commandment IN the world not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Was Seth, Cain, Noah etc. . . under this law?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Which was in the garden.

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

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Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

So, when God told Adam not to eat of the tree, was that a law or not? When Abel made a sacrifice to God that was acceptable..was that a law or not? When Cain made a sacrifice that was unacceptable, was he held accountable or not? What about when Cain murdered Abel? Did he realize that went against God or not? What about when Abraham was circumcized? Was that something that was a law to Abraham or not? Shall I go on?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

No, it is scriptural--just read the OT

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OK then show me all of the laws that they were under.

You believe that they had the gospel until Moses when it was changed to a "lesser version" because of unrighteousness.

Where is the priesthood among all the major players in the OT pre Moses?

Where is baptism?

Where are all of the ordinances?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

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Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

When was there no law IN the world?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Oh--do you mean that men will not be held accountable for the sins in which their is no law given?

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Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

OK then show me all of the laws that they were under.

You believe that they had the gospel until Moses when it was changed to a "lesser version" because of unrighteousness.

Where is the priesthood among all the major players in the OT pre Moses?

Where is baptism?

Where are all of the ordinances?

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Oh, boy--you need to read the first five books of the OT and see what these men were up too. Abraham was paying ***hes, making sacrifices, giving burnt offerings, getting circumcized, having heavenly visitors, etc.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

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Yes, but the "sin" came into the world when Adam fell, not when God gave the ten commandments to Moses.

Paul's teachings here are very deep and speak on many levels. I am not surprised you don't understand him.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Abraham was paying ***hes,

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Abraham gave ten percent of recovered stolen property to Melchizedek and then returned the remaining 90 percent. This is hardly a model for ***hing. And show me where ***hing was commanded by God. Also show me where Abraham gives any ***hes again on any of his increase.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham gave ten percent of recovered stolen property to Melchizedek and then returned the remaining 90 percent. This is hardly a model for ***hing. And show me where ***hing was commanded by God. Also show me where Abraham gives any ***hes again on any of his increase.

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Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham. You guys in here just continually slam him. Let's see, God gave Abraham his name which means in Hebrew "exalted father." You decide how much you want to rip on Abraham and giving his ***hes to Melchizedek which means "righteous king."

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, but the "sin" came into the world when Adam fell

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When you break a commandment you sin. You don't have to have knowledge of the commandment to sin but it is sin nonetheless. Just like a child who takes a candy bar. That is a sin and it is breaking the law even though the young child may not know that it is wrong. Now accountability is a separate issue.

13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Boy, you do need to read the OT and see exactly what God thinks of Abraham.

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Boy YOU need to read the OT and not read your Mormon theology into the text that clearly is not there.

Did Seth hold the priesthood?

Did Noah hold the priesthood?

Did Abraham hold the priesthood?