Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Billyray

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. Thou shalt not covet.


What was new? Weren't these commandments required by those prior to Moses?

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Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
And where do you find it within that scripture that faith is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

it is not that it is devoid but rather that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

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Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
. The question at hand is what makes you believe that this "faith" is devoid of obedience to Jesus Christ, when speaking of salvation?

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Why do I believe that we are saved by placing our faith in Christ and not by our works? (BTW haven't we been over this dozens of times now?)

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The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

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But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

His grace for our obedience(faith in Christ) is a theology that states we are not saved by faith, nor any obedience. We are saved by His grace. And that grace goes to those who obey Christ.(faith in Christ).

This is the same argument you make about repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins.

Your claim is that water baptism does not wash away sins. I agree. But the scriptures plainly teach that obedience to Christ by repenting and being water baptized is for the remission of sins--God granting His grace to those who obey Him.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

What is it about repentance and water baptism that you do not consider obedience to Jesus Christ, and what is it about the remission of sins that you do not consider the grace of Jesus Christ?

The LDS consider it just what it states--His grace for our obedience to Him. The LDS do not consider repentance nor the water that saves--only what is commanded for His grace unto the remission of sins.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

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BigJ says that Moses received was something new. Were these commandments something new?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

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What do you do with all of the verses that say that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us and that it is not because of our works? Why do you think you can simply ignore these verses?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

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I don't understand why your statement

"Faith does not save one. Works does not save one."

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dberrie----The LDS believe that we are saved by exactly what the scripture states--grace. Faith does not save one. Works does not save one. It's what one receives through faith that saves--His grace.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
The only conclusion you can come to by your statement is that works and faith are not required for exaltation.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
But that is always the conclusion of a theology that has a faith that is alone for salvation theology.

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What is it about the scriptures that have God giving His grace to those who obey Him that we are not understanding?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I don't understand why your statement

"Faith does not save one. Works does not save one."

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Because your theology does not allow you to understand it. And anyone who believes there is not any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ for His grace unto salvation has to play ******** to what is plainly taught in the scriptures.

What is it about the LDS believe they are saved by grace we are not understanding?

The scriptures teach that it is not faith, works, obedience, belief, or trust that saves. It is the grace of God. But it does state that which saves--His grace--goes to those who believe, obey, trust, and have faith in Christ. And I believe all those terms are integral components one to another.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Well--let's play your game--show us specifically where all these commandments are found prior to Moses.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

BigJ says that Moses received was something new. Were these commandments something new?

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New or otherwise--please show us the specific commandments that Abraham obeyed, and specifically listed as all the commandments, prior to Moses.

That is the game you are playing, Billyray. So, let's play it.

The fact of the matter is--you cannot back up that request, because although there is the reference to the commandments, laws, and statutes--there is not the first word detailing exactly what they were.

Your diversion of trying to show that the scriptural claim that Abraham lived under the gospel is not the same gospel as defined by the LDS because the LDS can't go back and show every commandment or statue or law becomes a double-edged sword to you also.

The fact is--Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ, and all your diversion cannot change that, nor prove what commandments, statutes, or laws, specifically speaking, that Abraham lived under. Genesis covers millenniums, and only a precious few pages.

With that said--Romans4, when speaking of works and Abraham--differentiated the Mosaic Law from the gospel of Christ--not all works in general, for the scriptures state that Abraham was given the promises due to his obedience.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Yes, Billyray--faith is devoid of any act of obedience to Jesus Christ, when it come to eternal life in the faith that is alone theology.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What do you do with all of the verses that say that we are saved when we place our faith in Christ to save us

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I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures teach that it is not faith, works, obedience, belief, or trust that saves. It is the grace of God. But it does state that which saves--His grace--goes to those who believe, obey, trust, and have faith in Christ. And I believe all those terms are integral components one to another.

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***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


What is the basis of our salvation? And what role does works play according to the above verses?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

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And when you include the verses that state that it is not based on our works how do you conclude that it is based on our works?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

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"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It states that Abraham lived under the gospel, period.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

"In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).

The fulness of the gospel has been preached in all ages when God's children have been prepared to receive it. In the latter days, or the dispensation of the fulness of times, the gospel has been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith."
http://lds.org/study/topics/gospel?lang=eng


Do you believe that they were under the fulness of the gospel from Adam to Moses? What evidence do you have that they were under the fulness of the gospel during this time period?

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How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

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Abraham didn't live under the gospel listed above. Do you think he did?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
I don't ignore the verses. I just do as the scriptures do--I add all the components that are interal to "faith in Christ" --obedience to Jesus Christ included.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And when you include the verses that state that it is not based on our works how do you conclude that it is based on our works?

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That what is not based on our works? What does your "it" include?

My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

That does not mean we are saved by faith or works. Only that faith and works are necessary for what does save one, and are integral components one to another. His grace is what saves.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That what is not based on our works? What does your "it" include?

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Exaltation is based on faith and works.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

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Thus works contribute to exaltation according to you, but the scriptures tell us that our works don't contribute for salvation.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
How are you relating this to the fact that Abraham lived under the gospel? What is your point?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Abraham didn't live under the gospel listed above. Do you think he did?

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It does not matter what I think. Abraham lived under the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Trying to disprove that due to the fact the Bible does not elaborate on all the commandments, laws, and ordinances that were given to Abraham is a losing argument.

To make my point--please prove exactly what laws, ordinances, and commandments Abraham was given. Billyray--you can't do it.

Your only defense is that all those commandments, laws, and ordinances are not spelled out in the Bible.

Bingo! Which means we just know that Abraham lived under the gospel., and that involved laws, ordinances, and commandments.

Which, if true, then that means that Abraham received of God's grace due to the fact that he obeyed His laws, ordinances, and commandments--rendering, once again--the faith that is alone for salvation false:

Genesis26:4-5--"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

That's it. Billyray. That is what we do have--and trying to take the road of diversion in accordance with we do not have will not make your case. It's only the fantasy of the faith alone.

But then, I understand your attempt to do so. It's all you have--relying on something that we don't have.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
My statement is that grace is based on faith, which includes, as it's integral component--obedience to Jesus Christ.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Thus works contribute to exaltation according to you, but the scriptures tell us that our works don't contribute for salvation.

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Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

There is nothing in the scriptures that state that obedience to Jesus Christ is not necessary for His grace unto life. It states that eternal life is not because of obedience, but by His grace--but nothing stating that obedience is not necessary for His grace.

There is also nothing in the scriptures that state that faith is independent of our obedience to Jesus Christ. Even you have stated that:

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is nothing in the scriptures that state that obedience to Jesus Christ is not necessary for His grace unto life. It states that eternal life is not because of obedience, but by His grace--but nothing stating that obedience is not necessary for His grace.

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***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to these verses in ***us what role do works play in our salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post--James clearly teaches that faith without works is dead which means that if we do not have works then we do not have true faith.

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But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works. This is evident with the thief who had faith and no works and was saved despite no works.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works.

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Grace is what is required for salvation.

Faith, as in obedience to Jesus Christ, is what is required for His grace.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

But works do not contribute FOR salvation. Faith us what is required not works. This is evident with the thief who had faith and no works and was saved despite no works.

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Faith without works is dead.

Billyray, once you give up the notion that it is your faith that saves you, then it makes perfect sense that it is not works that saves you either.

So, as you state you understand--it is God's grace and God's grace alone that saves you.

So, what does God tell us regarding who he gives his grace to? He says the faithful. But we know--faith without works is dead. So, those who say they have faith but then ignore what God tells them to do are lying. How can you say you believe someone and ignore what they tell you to do? You wouldn't.

So, what does the person do who wants to be saved? They believe and THAT means they do. So, one cannot say they have faith and not do--not possible. And that is why your trying to split hairs between faith and works is just not possible. As I said before show me the man who says he believes and then will not do and I will show you a liar.

Mat 21:28 ¶ But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Billyray, why does the one who does the will of his father, even though he said no, do better than the one who said he would and then didn't?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Faith without works is dead.

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Faith is what saves not works. The thief had faith and was saved despite any works.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

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Matt 21
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The key is in verse 32. It is about belief/faith.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Faith is what saves not works. The thief had faith and was saved despite any works.

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God is what saves, not faith or works. As noted before, the thief

1) Defended Christ
2) Confessed he was a sinner
3) Asked Christ to remember him.

You never answered me Billyray, would Christ have saved the thief he hung on the cross next to Christ and did nothing?

And, you have noted that a baby is not capable of having faith and yet you state you believe they are saved. Why do you believe and infant who died young would be saved if they have no faith if you think it is faith that saves?

P.S. I am not sure why on one hand you acknowledge that grace saves, but then keep repeating that it is faith that saves (see your bolded line above)

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Matt 21
31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The key is in verse 32. It is about belief/faith.

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Yes, but do you see that the above verses directly tie "believing him" with doing the will of the Father?

31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

So, the publicans and the harlots, as Christ defines belief--did the will of the Father. First off---repentence. Does repentence require that you do anything? Yes or no?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

According to these verses in ***us what role do works play in our salvation?

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The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Not by repentance and water baptism--but by His grace of the forgiveness of sins and His Holy Ghost--which repentance and baptism is commanded for.




Barnes' Notes on the Bible



By the washing of regeneration - In order to a correct understanding of this important p***age, it is necessary to ascertain whether the phrase here used refers to baptism, and whether anything different is intended by it from what is meant by the succeeding phrase - "renewing of the Holy Ghost." - The word rendered "washing" (λουτρόυ loutrou) occurs in the New Testament only in this place and in Ephesians 5:26, where also it is rendered "washing" - "That he might sanctify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word." The word properly means "a bath;" then water for bathing; then the act of bathing, washing, ablution. P***ow and Robinson. It is used by Homer to denote a warm or cold bath; then a washing away, and is thus applied to the drink-offerings in sacrifice, which were supposed to purify or wash away sin. P***ow. The word here does not mean "laver," or the vessel for washing in, which would be expressed by λουτὴρ loutēr and this word cannot be properly applied to the baptismal font.

[B]The word in itself would naturally be understood as referring to baptism (compare notes at Acts 22:16), which was regarded as the emblem of washing away sins, or of cleansing from them. I say it was the emblem, not the means of purifying the soul from sin.

The "wasing of regeneration" is commonly thought to refer to water baptism.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

God is what saves, not faith or works.

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Can you be saved by grace without faith AND works?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

God is what saves, not faith or works. As noted before, the thief

1) Defended Christ
2) Confessed he was a sinner
3) Asked Christ to remember him.

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The thief did not have the works that you believe are required for exaltation.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

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***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

What does it say in ***us about works?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

The thief did not have the works that you believe are required for exaltation.

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Exaltation is a subset of salvation. I notice you like to do this---you like to speak of what it is takes to be saved and then when we discuss it, you switch it to exaltation.

So, which is it---do you believe the thief is exalted or saved or both. Why?

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

What does it say in ***us about works?

Paul is clarifying to ***us that it God's mercy that saves us---which by we are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost (a work)....and yet it is God's mercy that saves. So, Paul makes it clear that it is God who saves us and thereby, we can be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

What does it say in ***us about works?

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5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse is clear BigJ God saved us NOT because of our works of righteousness.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse is clear BigJ God saved us NOT because of our works of righteousness.

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Yes, it clearly states that it is the mercy of God which saves us and thereby we can do the works of baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

I have no argument with this. God saves...not faith, not works...God alone. But it is through God that we can have faith and thereby do the works of God, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, it clearly states that it is the mercy of God which saves us and thereby we can do the works of baptism and receive the Holy Ghost.

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That is not what it says at all BigJ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

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Originally Posted by Billyray

That is not what it says at all BigJ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done"

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Amazing you can ignore the whole rest of this verse---which states that we are saved by the mercy of God and then refers back to our works.

I agree that it is not our works that save us. I also agree that it is not our faith that saves us--but as this verse states, we are saved by the mercy of God. And then, it goes on to discuss faith and works as applied by the mercy of God or that it is by his mercy that our sins are cleansed through baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I agree that it is not our works that save us.

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You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

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dberrie---The same role that obedience to Jesus Christ plays in the rest of the scriptures:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Not by repentance and water baptism--but by His grace of the forgiveness of sins and His Holy Ghost--which repentance and baptism is commanded for.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

***us 3
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Isn't baptism a work?

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Yes--baptism is a work. And the scriptures state that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins.

What is it about the remission of sins that you do not consider His grace for our obedience?

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What does it say in ***us about works?

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It states we are not saved by works, to which the LDS agree. But when we obey, we do receive God's grace, which does save, and the only thing that can save.

That is your onus, Billyray. To show where those who obey God do not receive of His grace.