Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

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The LDS do not believe there is any eternal life without obedience to Christ., anymore than you believe there is no eternal life without faith.

The point being, neither faith nor obedience saves us. His grace does.

No matter how you try to maintain that faith saves one.

BTW--what saves us in your theology--faith or His grace?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The point being, neither faith nor obedience saves us. His grace does.

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Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes--baptism is a work. And the scriptures state that repentance and water baptism is for the remission of sins.

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So you would say that we are justified by works. Agree?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

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No. There is no such thing as faith without works except dead faith. Grace does not flow through dead faith.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to Faith. To separate them would be likened to the result of removing a heart from a living human.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You don't agree with that at all BigJ. You do believe that works contribute to your exaltation.

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And this is where the problem lies Billyray as you suspend your own logic and even what we are saying to continue in your own dialogue of what you think we believe and continue on that same point regardless of what we say, the verses we show you, the verses you show us that we show you do not say what you think they do and then, you call me a liar when your fail to make your point over and over again.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

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Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

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No.

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So faith and works ARE required for exaltation.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So you would say that we are justified by works. Agree?

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Depends on what justification you are referring to--in the case of receiving the justification of all men in the Atonement--no. That was a free gift and all men have it, no faith or works required.

In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

what you think we believe and continue on that same point regardless of what we say

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I know that Mormonism teaches that faith AND works are an required for exaltation. Without them you will not be exalted.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Depends on what justification you are referring to-

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There are not multiple types of justification in that you do err.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I know that Mormonism teaches that faith AND works are an required for exaltation. Without them you will not be exalted.

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You forget that Mormonism teaches us that it is by grace we are saved.

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we believe. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

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Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

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Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we state we believe. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Can an adult with normal mental capacity be saved by grace without both faith and works?

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No. There is no such thing as faith without works except dead faith. Grace does not flow through dead faith.

Obedience to Jesus Christ is an integral component to Faith. To separate them would be likened to the result of removing a heart from a living human.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So faith and works ARE required for exaltation.

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Yes. That has never been argued by me. It's just not what saves one--obedience to Christ is the reason God extends His grace--through faith, which includes obedience to Christ.

Thus the scripture:

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

That is likened unto me asking you if you believed faith was required for eternal life.


The only connection left to answer now is--does faith have obedience to Christ as it's integral component?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Dberrie, at this point, after all of our explanations, Billyray tries to show us we are wrong by stating that we don't believe what we state we believe. *sigh*

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Those reading our posts do not overlook that point.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Thus the scripture:

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
In the case of eternal life, as a personal reception--justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Bottom line you believe that you are justified by works.

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Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Those reading our posts do not overlook that point.

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I think that they will see that you guys are deceptive in your answers. Especially when you say not of works but works are required. This is double speak on your part.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

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Justification is by works in your world DB. Agree?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Repentance and water baptism is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I think that they will see that you guys are deceptive in your answers. Especially when you say not of works but works are required. This is double speak on your part.

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I think the critics of Mormonism arguments come down to this---Mormons lie about what they believe--what we tell you they believe is really what they believe.

I think this is what Dr. Mouw was referring to when he said that he was in a room listening to Walter Martin and when a young LDS man stood up crying and said---what you say is not true, we believe that we are saved by grace and WM replied, "see how they teach them to lie?"

*sigh*

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Bottom line is just as I stated----justification comes through our faith in Christ--which includes obedience to Jesus Christ as it's integral component.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Justification is by works in your world DB. Agree?

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As Julie stated--you start these circling patterns when you have nowhere else to go.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Billyray--you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

Come on DB don't ignore these verses.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

As Julie stated--you start these circling patterns when you have nowhere else to go.

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And you say that when you can't answer my questions. It is plainly obvious.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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dberrie-----you are in the circling patterns--please reread my post.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And you say that when you can't answer my questions. It is plainly obvious.

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I say that when you start your circling pattern. What is it about my answer that you would like to inquire of me?

Circling is not a viable alternative.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is it about my answer that you would like to inquire of me?

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Circling is not a viable alternative.

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I know when you say this you don't want to answer my question. This is simply a diversion on your part.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

According to these verses what role does works such as baptism play in your salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I know when you say this you don't want to answer my question. This is simply a diversion on your part.

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Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.



Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

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What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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I'm going to repost my answer that I know I have given three times:

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.

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It's emboldened above, Billyray. The same as the last three times.

Come'on Billyray. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through,

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Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


But this verse clearly says that it is NOT OF WORKS. Baptism is a work. So why do you think baptism contributes FOR salvation?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

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It is a challenge to get you to actually answer the question that was asked.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


But this verse clearly says that it is NOT OF WORKS.

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And it's not of faith either. It's by grace. So--do you believe that faith contributes to salvation?

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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dberrie----I'm going to repost my answer that I know I have given three times:

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

It's not the wire that illuminates the bulb--but try disconnecting the wire from the bulb and see how much light it produces.
It's emboldened above, Billyray. The same as the last three times.

Come'on Billyray. At least make it hard for me. I really need a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

It is a challenge to get you to actually answer the question that was asked.

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Yeah, right. Again--what is it about my answer to your question--It is the faith which grace flows through, --that I need to repost it four times?

You can do it, Billyray. I have confidence in you. Throw me a challenge, other than recircling the wagons.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yeah, right. Again--what is it about my answer to your question--It is the faith which grace flows through,

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So it is faith and not of works like it says in Ephesians.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So it is faith and not of works like it says in Ephesians.

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No, it is grace that allows us to have faith and thereby works.


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Paul understands also that faith without works is dead--so he makes it clear that it is grace that saves us.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And it's not of faith either. It's by grace.

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When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

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Paul concludes it--and we conclude it as well as infants who die are saved without grace and without works.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

When you say this I can only conclude that faith is not required.

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Faith without works is dead. Grace saves. God requires faith and faith requires works.