Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Grace saves. God requires faith and faith requires works.

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So faith and works contribute for salvation. That is the only way I can read your statement.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

So faith and works contribute for salvation. That is the only way I can read your statement.

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Well, an infant who dies does not need faith or works. So, what "contributes for our salvation" is that we give all of our might, mind, and strength to God.

Hmmm, let me get this straight. Are you saying Billyray, that a person can be saved and not give their all to God?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Are you saying Billyray, that a person can be saved and not give their all to God?

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You expect to be exalted and not give your all to God.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

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Your answer does not state what part works play in your exaltation. Could you address that for me?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think the critics of Mormonism arguments come down to this---Mormons lie about what they believe--what we tell you they believe is really what they believe.

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You believe that faith AND works contribute for exaltation yet you and DB are trying to sidestep this fact. Just admit it.

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Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
What role do your works including baptism play with salvation in light of the verses from Ephesians?

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

It is the faith which grace flows through, just as the wire is the conduit which electricity flows through.

Billyray--what is it about my answer we are not acknowledging?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

Your answer does not state what part works play in your exaltation. Could you address that for me?

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Try hard, Billyray. This is the fifth time.

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.

You know--the scripture that you posted above--""through faith;"

You do realize that you printed that scripture--right?

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that the grace flows through--the remission of sins.

Ephesians2:8--"For by grace are ye saved through faith;

The faith in that sentence is represented by repentance and water baptism--the grace flows thought that faith-- the remission of sins.

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Billyray--I color coded it for your convenience. Match the black highlight with the black highlighted terms and the red with the red.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Try hard, Billyray. This is the fifth time.

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.

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That was actually the first time that you mentioned baptism not the fifth time.

What you really mean to say is that grace helps your keep the commandments. Isn't that correct?

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.

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And water baptism is a works that you do which is in conflict with what the verses in Ephesians 2 which plainly say "not of yourselves:" and "Not of works"

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Originally Posted by Billyray

You believe that faith AND works contribute for exaltation yet you and DB are trying to sidestep this fact. Just admit it.

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Billyray, I know it must be hard to accept that as much as you try to force what you think we believe on us---that what you say is just a misrepresentation of our beliefs as I can easily point to an infant who dies who is saved without faith and without works. Therefore, ultimately, it is Christ's atonement that saves and the gift of grace He gives to us. Now, if you want to ask what we believe Christ tells us regarding who He gives His grace to, we can go there if you would like.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And water baptism is a works that you do which is in conflict with what the verses in Ephesians 2 which plainly say "not of yourselves:" and "Not of works"

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Because Paul is making sure believers understand that their works do not save them, but Christ does and it is because Christ does that they CAN have faith and thereby be baptized for a remission of their sins. Without this grace, works are useless and without faith works are useless. That is the point Paul is making.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, I know it must be hard to accept that as much as you try to force what you think we believe on us---

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APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvat...works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."


Do you agree with the bolded part above?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Because Paul is making sure believers understand that their works do not save them, but Christ does and it is because Christ does that they CAN have faith and thereby be baptized for a remission of their sins. Without this grace, works are useless and without faith works are useless. That is the point Paul is making.

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No that is not the point he was making. His point is that works do not contribute FOR salvation.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvat...works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."


Do you agree with the bolded part above?

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Billyray, I know you are very good at taking a snipet out of context. You even put the.... and not the entire quote from the LDS ensign.

Why not give me the whole quote and we can go from there.

You do realize that Mormons believe everyone in the world is given the opportunity to have their sins remitted (cleansed) and enter into the presence of Christ, right? And you do understand that we believe that men will be judged according to their works, whether good or evil (as stated in Revelation) right?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray, I know you are very good at taking a snipet out of context.

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APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvat...works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."

Do you agree with the bolded part? Without works do you get the grace?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

APR. 1981 SALVATION: BY GRACE OR BY WORKS?
http://lds.org/ensign/1981/04/salvat...works?lang=eng


". . .We Are Saved by Grace
In summary then, there is no need to go to extraordinary lengths to apologize for Paul, or try to explain away his statements on salvation by grace. We are saved by grace—saved by Christ’s love from physical and spiritual death; saved by Christ’s love from Adam’s fall and our own; saved from sin and transgression by the grace or gifts of God. The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from himbut our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."

Do you agree with the bolded part?

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Yes, it is through what we do that this power comes into our lives. But you ignore all the sentences regarding grace and what that means regarding our salvation and it is this grace that we are tapping into based on what we do because we believe faith without works is dead. In other words, you can't have faith and do nothing.

Here is the rest of the sentence you dotted out----

The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from himbut our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. . ."

Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

So, according to the description of what is means as the works of righteousness--the power of God alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

In other words, you can't have faith and do nothing.

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And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have works of righteousness. Recall that you are not saved by grace until AFTER ALL you can do. Works are a vital part of LDS exaltation.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Repentance and water baptism are the faith that grace flows through.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And water baptism is a works that you do which is in conflict with what the verses in Ephesians 2 which plainly say "not of yourselves:" and "Not of works"

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And if you check that verse--it is not of faith either. It is by grace one is saved.

And that through faith. What is your evidence that repentance and water baptism is not integral components of faith?

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have works of righteousness. Recall that you are not saved by grace until AFTER ALL you can do. Works are a vital part of LDS exaltation.

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I don't disagree with you--but how is that any different from the Biblical text:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have works of righteousness. Recall that you are not saved by grace until AFTER ALL you can do. Works are a vital part of LDS exaltation.

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And you can't have grace and thus exaltation unless you have faith (if you are capable of having such) and faith without works is dead. Works are a vital part of the gospel of Jesus Christ--He is the one who teaches us to have faith in Him and that means following Him and doing what He says to do. Do you disagree? Do you think a person can have faith and not works?

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Are you arguing Billyray, that you can be saved without obeying Him?

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

Works are a vital part of the gospel of Jesus Christ--

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And I agree that works are vital for LDS especially with respect for exaltation.

Please remember to stay on topic...or else. ;)

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Originally Posted by Jill

Please remember to stay on topic...or else. ;)

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I think we have covered everything under the sun in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

And I agree that works are vital for LDS especially with respect for exaltation.

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No, works are a vital part of faith---something you seem to keep denying even though the scriptures clearly teach otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Billyray

I think we have covered everything under the sun in this thread.

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Yeah, I think we could just keep this one thread and get rid of all the rest of them. ;)

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Originally Posted by Jill

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...not-a-christia

This thread is about THEOLOGY and HISTORY, not politics. Romney's name is mentioned because he continues to insist he is a "Christian" when it can be proven outside of politics that he is NOT. Let's try it again and stay away from the insults, please.

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Is this "ministry" a 501c?

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Originally Posted by Pa Pa

Is this "ministry" a 501c?

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You are right---if it is--then Jill may be in trouble with the IRS. Maybe this is worth reporting.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

You are right---if it is--then Jill may be in trouble with the IRS. Maybe this is worth reporting.

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And if you succeed in shutting down sites like this one how are you going to learn the Truth?

It is in your better interest to do everything you can to support this site and others like it otherwise you are going to remain in the dark believing Smith's lies.

Is that what you really want?

Andy

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Originally Posted by akaSeerone

And if you succeed in shutting down sites like this one how are you going to learn the Truth?

It is in your better interest to do everything you can to support this site and others like it otherwise you are going to remain in the dark believing Smith's lies.

Is that what you really want?

Andy

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The point is that when a "charity" is a 501c, they can't make a stand for a politician. That is why the SBC got in trouble with the IRS for telling its followers not to vote for Mitt in the last election. I think that is why Jill is trying to be careful to say this is not about politics, but about religious beliefs. She is walking a fine line in singling out a politician. Had she included Jon Huntsman in the mix or had she just talked about Mormons in general, but as you can see, she is specifically calling on Mitt's religion as a political candidate. There she might get herself in trouble.

And as far as this site telling the truth? No, this site promotes little more than gossip and sensationalizism. Should someone read this site and then walk into an LDS (Mormon) church, I don't know if they would recognize it as being the same thing as Walter Martin portrays.

Big Julie and the guy who needs to shave his chin...: This website is not a charity.
If you and the the other silly wabbit wants to report something to the IRS --- howzabout you report the "Corporation of The First Presidency of The L.D.S. " ?

Ask the IRS to investigate how many Corporate Boards those guys in the Big Headquarters Building in S.L.C. sit on each month and how much their stipend and stock portfolios are ... all the while claiming that they are a Church". :eek:

W.M.M. is a website to give reasons for the Christian Faith as found in the Holy Bible. It is an Apologetics ( reasons ) website to give ammunition/food/medicine/bandages for the Christian warrior who is defending the Biblical Christian gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ against the slings and arrows of the devil and his cronies.

It is also website for people who are trapped in cults and "isms" to come and get some answers , which they are afraid to ask about in their Ward , Kingdom Hall , Reading Room , or "group". A place to give them some hope for eternity , rather than trying to do enough good works and following a self-proclaimed prophet.

Big Julie and the other Mormon defenders on these Boards : You are a servant of your L.D.S. masters , and thus are serving their boss the Devil , the Father of lies , The Lord of the flies , the enemy of our souls.

Ask yourselves this : " Why don't the L.D.S. Seventies , The Twelve or one of the top three guys in the L.D.S. group come on this website and try and defend Mormonism ...?!? "

Repent this day of your sins , and your helping out the Evil one ... ( that means to make a "U-turn " start marching in the other direction. ) Bow your knee and heart to Jesus Christ and ask Him to forgive you this day , and trust in Him for Salvation.

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Decalogue

Big Julie and the guy who needs to shave his chin...: This website is not a charity.

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It is deemed a charity if the way this site is funded is listed as a 501c.

That is what Pa Pa asked, that is all.

Decalogue---your dialogue sounds like it comes from the Salem witch hunts. "...your helping out the Evil one..." Oh brother.

[QUOTE=BigJulie;104059]

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Decalogue---your dialogue sounds like it comes from the Salem witch hunts. "...your helping out the Evil one..." Oh brother.

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:rolleyes: You do not know when to keep quiet do you ? { Or , in this case , when to keep your fingers away from the keyboard. }

Your proper response after reading my post above , would have been for you to do some self-examination . Some soul-searching.

Ask some questions about Joseph Smith's "First Vision Account". Instead of trying to defend Mormonism by insulting Christianity , and hacking away at the words of Holy Scripture , ask yourself why a supposed Angel of "God" would tell fibs about the Christian Churches , when Jesus Christ himself said that "... The gates of Hell will not stand against his Church...."

--- What you should do is like I said before ---> ask/write/call the headquarters building in Salt lake City and ask the Bigshots how many Corporation Board-of-Directors seats that they sit on ? How much money do they make ... while making fun of biblical Christian Pastors for getting paid by their local congregations ?

As for "Salem witch hunts' ... well , the Bible tells us that there were witches and practioners of 'evil' stuff in Bible times , and there are today people who still do that. Look in the mirror . It is you and the mormons on this Board that are doing the will of your "father" , and according to Scripture --- that 'father" is The Evil One. Only the Devil hisself could have invented L.D.S. mormonism.

It is mormonism that teaches that Joseph Smith must be professed as a "Prophet-of-God" before you can get into the Celestial heaven.

Biblical Christianity says that the ONLY way to get to Heaven is by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ ! John 14:6 !

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Originally Posted by Decalogue

Biblical Christianity says that the ONLY way to get to Heaven is by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ ! John 14:6 !

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Even that is a partial truth:

Acts2:38--"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

The faith alone have a really difficult time with that one--do they not?

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Decalogue

:rolleyes: You do not know when to keep quiet do you ? { Or , in this case , when to keep your fingers away from the keyboard. }

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I don't even know what to say to this.

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As for "Salem witch hunts' ... well , the Bible tells us that there were witches and practioners of 'evil' stuff in Bible times , and there are today people who still do that. Look in the mirror . It is you and the mormons on this Board that are doing the will of your "father" , and according to Scripture --- that 'father" is The Evil One. Only the Devil hisself could have invented L.D.S. mormonism.

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Yes, I am sure if I lived during the time of the Salem witch trials, you would have burned me at the stake.

Maybe if I had lived 160 years earlier, you would have tarred and feathered me, and been part of the mob sent to "exterminate" the Mormons.

I guess here, you will just have to tell me when to keep quiet. *sigh*

[QUOTE=Decalogue;104173]

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

:rolleyes: You do not know when to keep quiet do you ? { Or , in this case , when to keep your fingers away from the keyboard. }

Your proper response after reading my post above , would have been for you to do some self-examination . Some soul-searching.

Ask some questions about Joseph Smith's "First Vision Account". Instead of trying to defend Mormonism by insulting Christianity , and hacking away at the words of Holy Scripture , ask yourself why a supposed Angel of "God" would tell fibs about the Christian Churches , when Jesus Christ himself said that "... The gates of Hell will not stand against his Church...."

--- What you should do is like I said before ---> ask/write/call the headquarters building in Salt lake City and ask the Bigshots how many Corporation Board-of-Directors seats that they sit on ? How much money do they make ... while making fun of biblical Christian Pastors for getting paid by their local congregations ?

As for "Salem witch hunts' ... well , the Bible tells us that there were witches and practioners of 'evil' stuff in Bible times , and there are today people who still do that. Look in the mirror . It is you and the mormons on this Board that are doing the will of your "father" , and according to Scripture --- that 'father" is The Evil One. Only the Devil hisself could have invented L.D.S. mormonism.

It is mormonism that teaches that Joseph Smith must be professed as a "Prophet-of-God" before you can get into the Celestial heaven.

Biblical Christianity says that the ONLY way to get to Heaven is by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ ! John 14:6 !

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I don't respond much these days to the illiterate ravings of your ilk, however, when I read the unverifiable nonsense you have written here I am prompted to give some form of reply.

The real key here is that the true Gospel was never meant to be found within "biblical Christianity" . The only way to Truth is through the Holy Ghost's witness.

No LDS member would claim that the BoM is the only way to Truth, it is as imperfect as the Holy Bible because it is also the work of men.

Novato

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Originally Posted by Novato

I don't respond much these days to the illiterate ravings of your ilk, however, when I read the unverifiable nonsense you have written here I am prompted to give some form of reply.

The real key here is that the true Gospel was never meant to be found within "biblical Christianity" . The only way to Truth is through the Holy Ghost's witness.

No LDS member would claim that the BoM is the only way to Truth, it is as imperfect as the Holy Bible because it is also the work of men.

Novato

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Just one correction here--this was the post of Decalogue--not Julie--whom the post was credited to.

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Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just one correction here--this was the post of Decalogue--not Julie--whom the post was credited to.

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Yeah, the software has been glitchy like that. I noticed it in some of my posts and others.

Edit: Btw, I agree with Novato that scripture cannot replace a real experience of God.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Yeah, the software has been glitchy like that. I noticed it in some of my posts and others.

Edit: Btw, I agree with Novato that scripture cannot replace a real experience of God.

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I also agree that scripture is for the purpose of teaching us how to reach God---scripture is not there to replace God.

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Originally Posted by BigJulie

I also agree that scripture is for the purpose of teaching us how to reach God---scripture is not there to replace God.

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Yet the scripture is God word. And because God changes NOT.. The scripture then is the same now as it has always been and reflects the salvation of God as He first explained it.. Because it is His word it is as dependable as if he were standing before us telling us of Himself and his ways to our face.. IHS jim

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Originally Posted by James Banta

Yet the scripture is God word. And because God changes NOT.. The scripture then is the same now as it has always been and reflects the salvation of God as He first explained it.. Because it is His word it is as dependable as if he were standing before us telling us of Himself and his ways to our face.. IHS jim

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Yes, agree--the Bible is God's word---but anybody paying attention can see that the way the Bible has been read or what is meant by it has changed over the years which is why the Journal of Jewish Studies has an article which states that the belief that creation came from nothing is a belief that was influenced by Islam and Christianity after the death of Christ and is not historically a Jewish belief.

It is also why Catholism changed to Protestantism, etc.

Bibliolatry vs believing in Christ by Marcus Borg

http://afreshperspective-chuck.blogs...e-as-lens.html

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One semester, a very bright Muslim engineering student took the course. A senior, he did so because he needed another humanities course for graduation and the cl*** fit his schedule. One day, after witnessing Borg’s interaction with the more conservative students, he said to him, “I think I understand what’s going on. You’re saying the Bible is like a lens through which we see God, and they’re (the inerrantists) saying that it’s important to believe in the lens.”

That is a good ****ogy. When I am asked if I believe the Bible my response is: As a Christian I believe (I trust in) in Jesus of Nazareth, the living Christ who is my Lord. I use the Bible as a means to nurture a transformative relationship with God, whom I know through Jesus. The Bible is a lens through which I see God and Jesus.

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Good article.

I like Borg. He makes a lot of sense.