This just in...

the "death" talked about in connection to Adam's sin is ALWAYS dealing only with human death.....

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Originally Posted by disciple

Hello Alan,
Here is the definition of human evolution,
"Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors

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and what (according to evolution)came before the apelike ancestors?

and before that?

and before that?

Trace it back.....back...back though the uncounted years of time that has p***ed.
Trace it all the way back to the very start...what were the very first building blocks that went on to form life?

guess where you end up?.......You end up at Genesis 1:11..."let the EARTH bring forth...."




God commands what to bring forth life?........"The EARTH!"










There simply is no disagree here in Genesis with the teachings of evolution at all !



The Bible does use more spiritual wordings, and the bible tells us the "who" that was behind the "what"......
but the fact is that what we read in Genesis fits nicely with what science and evolution are also finding out about early earth history.

where is man from?

Where was he created as taught in Genesis?
What was the location?

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the "death" talked about in connection to Adam's sin is ALWAYS dealing only with human death.....

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Keep in mind there are primarily two views of history (secular and Christian) with two different authorities, man’s fallible reason(of which science is a part) and a perfect God. According to the Bible, a perfect God created a perfect creation, and because of man’s sin, death and suffering came into the world.
Romans 8:19-22 "For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." God said His creation was very good, Romans 8 tells us that because of man's sin the rest of creation was unwillingly subjected to corruption.

allthat stuff about "creation" is just talking about us humans.

When the Bible tells us that a great leader will arise and says, "The whole world will go after him" it does not mean all the animals...LOL

It does not mean all the worms and the bees and the deer in the woods and the trees too!...LOL

The Bible many times will talk about the creation, and the world and etc, and this is just its way of talking about the people...

so that is why when you read the verse at Romans 8 you have to keep in its correct context as already given at Romans 5:12 that tells us that death came to "all men"


So the sin of Adam leads to the death of Adam's children.......and thats it.

now someone might say that "all death" was due to the sin of Adam. and they understand this "all" to be talking about the death of animals too.

This is error.....

Its very easy to show this is all error when you consider that Eve is said to be the mother of "all the living" ......well sheep are living, deer are living, worms are alive, is Eve their mother too?


No!....Eve is the mother of all the living, as in all the people that are her children.
Not the deer, not the sheep, and not the trees or the birds etc...

So the word "all" does not become an automatic blanket for everything you can think of.
the word "all" only can be understood in its very limited context.






Got another verse?

"The order is wrong"

That is what many YEC teachers try to tell us.
They say that the order of things in Genesis is different than how evolution teaches things came in.

The problem with this argument is that they are ***uming things about the story of Genesis that you cant ***ume at all !

Let me give an example of what I mean by this.

lets say that of DAY X something happens on the land that according to evolution should have happened far earlier or later in history.
The problem here is that just because the Bible tells us something is happening on the land on Day X is does not mean other things could not also be happening!

The Bible tells us only that of Day X something changed.....but this does not mean nothing else could not be happening too.


say on Day X the bible tells us that something changed on the "land", does this fact alone mean all things in the "sea" and in the "sky" stood still?....no!

The fact is this: when we read the Bible tell us about something that changed on the land on Day X it is simply that.....its telling us that something changed on the land.

It does not rule-out lots, and lots, or other things that might also be changing or have changed beforehand...
The Bible is just pointing out that on Day X this thing___changed.

its not to be understood for one moment as the "only" change......its just the "only"one listed in the text is all....

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

allthat stuff about "creation" is just talking about us humans.

The Bible many times will talk about the creation, and the world and etc, and this is just its way of talking about the people...

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Not so in this case, it says the creation was "unwillingly subjected" to futility and corruption. Humans sin willingly.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

now someone might say that "all death" was due to the sin of Adam. and they understand this "all" to be talking about the death of animals too.

This is error.....

Its very easy to show this is all error when you consider that Eve is said to be the mother of "all the living" ......well sheep are living, deer are living, worms are alive, is Eve their mother too?


No!....Eve is the mother of all the living, as in all the people that are her children.
Not the deer, not the sheep, and not the trees or the birds etc...

So the word "all" does not become an automatic blanket for everything you can think of.
the word "all" only can be understood in its very limited context.






Got another verse?

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Alan people who read the Bible don't need that explanation, we know that Eve is not the mother of animals. Genesis 1:24 says,"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

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Originally Posted by disciple

Alan people who read the Bible don't need that explanation, we know that Eve is not the mother of animals. .......

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We know from only the fuller context that Eve did not give birth to every single living creature on the earth.
But, (and this is the important part Im pointing out to you) but the Text does clearly say she was the mother of "all the living"

I dont know how the verse reads in your Bible,but I remember my Bible School days, and we had a Bible teacher that taught us from his latin background , and he talked to the cl*** about how the bible actually say something like ""mother of all life"


So from the context we get the idea that this is only talking about her own children, and not in fact, "all the living creatures"


Im just saying that the same Bible says things like all "creation" and all "the world' and its not talking about animals, or trees or birds etc.
Its just talking about people.




so when we might say something like "all of creation follows his teachings"..or "the whole world followed his ideas" we are not talking about the fish and birds and apes and mice or trees etc.

The words like "creation"..."the world",,,the "universe" etc, ...cant be used like automatic blankets to cover everything you can think of every time.
They must be used within their limited given context, and the context for the death that was the result of Adam's sin is given at Romans 5....and it is only talking about human death.


Adam sinned, and death is the result, and it was p***ed down to us via Adam.

Not to our pets.....not to deer...not to cows.....not to worms....just to us who are the children of Adam.




So when Paul tells us that death came to 'all men" it is wrong to twist this into meaning more than what Paul wanted.

You might ask me how I come to know so many things about this topic?

How come I seem to be able to answer every arguement put out by the Young earth teachers?


The answer is, that I got a chance to learn what the YEC teachers taught by being taught personally by the best Young Earth Creationism teacher alive....Mr Ken Ham.

Ken Ham is the guy running around the whole world, (world = lots of christian churches,,,LOL) teaching peopleand writing books and setting up websites , pushing the YEC teachings.

I went to his 8-week ORIGINS cl***.....taught by him to me personally.




So in other words, when I run into guy on the internet that I see are simply quoting their YEC websites and books, I just smile.....I have already been taught that stuff by the best....Guys on the internet can only quote the words of others, I have listened to the guy who wrote the books himself!




and so.....this is not my first rodeo

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You might ask me how I come to know so many things about this topic?

How come I seem to be able to answer every arguement put out by the Young earth teachers?


The answer is, that I got a chance to learn what the YEC teachers taught by being taught personally by the best Young Earth Creationism teacher alive....Mr Ken Ham.

Ken Ham is the guy running around the whole world, (world = lots of christian churches,,,LOL) teaching peopleand writing books and setting up websites , pushing the YEC teachings.

I went to his 8-week ORIGINS cl***.....taught by him to me personally.




So in other words, when I run into guy on the internet that I see are simply quoting their YEC websites and books, I just smile.....I have already been taught that stuff by the best....Guys on the internet can only quote the words of others, I have listened to the guy who wrote the books himself!




and so.....this is not my first rodeo

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So you contend that before man evolved animals were dying for millions of years. So lets look at the way animals could die. Other animals could kill and eat them but that can't be since God said He gave every green herb to animals for their food, Gen 1:30. They could have died from sickness and disease but God said everything He made was very good not prone to sickness and disease. So why would there be death in a world where there was plenty of food, no natural enemies, man or beast, no disease or corruption?

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Originally Posted by disciple

So you contend that before man evolved animals were dying for millions of years. So lets look at the way animals could die. Other animals could kill and eat them but that can't be since God said He gave every green herb to animals for their food, Gen 1:30. They could have died from sickness and disease but God said everything He made was very good not prone to sickness and disease. So why would there be death in a world where there was plenty of food, no natural enemies, man or beast, no disease or corruption?

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were was man created again?
what was the location where Adam was made?

(therein is found your answer)

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

were was man created again?
what was the location where Adam was made?

(therein is found your answer)

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In the garden?......or.....outside the garden?
What does this term "garden" mean to you?
What image would the people have who first read this word "garden"?

Is life the same for the things inside the garden compared to what life is like outside the garden?

so where is man first from, inside the garden or are we from outside the garden?




Now lets read Genesis 1:28 and see what it actually says compared to what the YEC teachers want it to say....

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground

so what things is God handing over to humans?....fish,birds living creatures of the land....

thats easy to understand, lets read on-


Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food

here what more is now also handed over to human?....plants, fruit trees.

"They will be yours for food"...they?
What "they" is God handing over to us again in verse 28 and 29?....


Oh thats right- fish, birds, living creatures, plants fruit trees....etc.

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground

so what things is God handing over to humans?....fish,birds living creatures of the land....

thats easy to understand, lets read on-


Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food

here what more is now also handed over to human?....plants, fruit trees.

"They will be yours for food"...they?
What "they" is God handing over to us again in verse 28 and 29?....


Oh thats right- fish, birds, living creatures, plants fruit trees....etc.

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You are getting ahead of yourself Alan, that didn't take place until Gen 9:3"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs."

Actually I'm just reading and sticking to the Text as it is written.

That is also shows us both the main error the YEC teachers make, in that they simply dont stick to the text as written.

Just go over the verses again that I listed and read them as they are on the page....

the "they" is all that God is listing and talking about.....(birds, fish, trees etc).


that is what the Text says,,,that is what I believe.




This is just like when I was in the ORIGINS cl*** and Ken Ham was telling me that the first thing God created was "the light"
I just was reading the Genesis account at the very time he said this to me, and something "clicked" on and I raised my hand...

I asked "What does the Bible say is the first thing God created "In the beginning?"




That one question opened my eyes to the many errors taught under the heading of YEC

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Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Actually I'm just reading and sticking to the Text as it is written.

That is also shows us both the main error the YEC teachers make, in that they simply dont stick to the text as written.

Just go over the verses again that I listed and read them as they are on the page....

the "they" is all that God is listing and talking about.....(birds, fish, trees etc).


that is what the Text says,,,that is what I believe.




This is just like when I was in the ORIGINS cl*** and Ken Ham was telling me that the first thing God created was "the light"
I just was reading the Genesis account at the very time he said this to me, and something "clicked" on and I raised my hand...

I asked "What does the Bible say is the first thing God created "In the beginning?"




That one question opened my eyes to the many errors taught under the heading of YEC

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I've got to stop for today Alan but I appreciate the conversation, interesting as always.

What I mean is this-

I beieve the very first thing the Bible tells us that god created in the beginning was "the heavens"
So I have the source for all the light later talked about in the rest of the story.
I dont need to invent anything, I dont need to twist things around, I dont need to come up with a way to have a light, yet that same light has no source...

I believe the word "heaven" is talking about stars like our own sun.
I believe it is also talking about worlds like our earth, and moons like our own moon.

So when I read at genesis 1:1 that god made first "the Heavens" I got the stage all set to keep reading the account with all of the players in place.


But thats not how the YEC teachers have it.
They have the "light" created first.
And, thats a problem because they dont have any source for that light for a few days yet.

Thus the need to twist into the story the idea of a type of light that does not need a source.
That also means that the "light" talked about in genesis cant be at all the same light with the same type of source that we see today.


So that means the light of the YEC teachers was at best...'temporary".....a kind of stop-gap light that was created by God who did not get around to makeing normal light for a few days yet....





YEC "light" has gone away.
My "light" is still there to be seen each day.



YEC light was "magic'

My light is "real".....and I can point to it.

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Originally Posted by disciple

I've got to stop for today Alan but I appreciate the conversation, interesting as always.

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I hope you drop in today too???

Its nice to chat on topics such as this...

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Originally Posted by disciple

I've got to stop for today Alan but I appreciate the conversation, interesting as always.

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Were you on your "work" computer?.......

I swear over the years I have noticed that the only time I can get into a conversation with someone on topics I enjoy talking about happens during the week and during normal working hours??????????


on Sa****ay and Sunday ?.............only hearing the sound of crickets.....

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According to science, the start of the universe was the Big Bang.
All that we see around us in our universe had this one single starting point.
Every star , every dead world like our moon, every earth-like planet we might see in the future, is made from stuff that came forth from the Big Bang.

In the Bible this very same moment is talked about at Genesis 1:1 " In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth."
The word "Heavens" has several meanings in the Bible and in different contexts, but of these many understandings of the word is the idea for the "Full canopy of the night sky" .........in other words all the stars and galaxies of the universe.

So like what we find in science, the Bible also has the creation of the "heavens" as being the very first thing listed that God has made.



But what about life?
Is there agreement about where all life is from in both Science and in Genesis?......yes there is!


Now according to Science all the life we see on the earth is just the natural result of change on the earth.
That life is just the earth itself ....that Life is part of the Earth.
In other words....animals and humans are just a part of the earth that has come to life....

Is this all that different than what the Bible teaches in Genesis?.......Nope!

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr***"
"And the earth brought forth gr***"
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature"
"And God made the beast of the earth"

"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree"
"And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air"

So what we see in the Genesis story is the clear fact that God made all life out of this very earth itself.
Life, be it the life found in the plant world, or the life found in the animal kingdom, is all from this very same single source....and that source is the very ground of the earth itself!


So there is complete agreement about the source of life in both Evolution and in Genesis!

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The text does not indicate the “Big Bang Theory”. It is just a theory. The text does say that God is the creator of all things. There is nothing that indicates how he did it other than he spoke it into existence. (Hebrews 11:3) This also can mean that Jesus, the word of God, made the worlds out of nothing. There is no room for the big Bang Theory

When you read the Bible, don’t read into it what is clearly not there. God made each item and living thing. There is no agreement between creation and evolution.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

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But what about humans?
Are we also from the same source?


yes we are!!!!!!!!!

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Genesis 2:7 states that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. That sounds more like the direct creation of man by the very act of God creating man out of the dust of the Earth than a long process of evolution. Evolution is just a bogus idea to relieve man of the responsibility of answering to a Holy God.

Genesis 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If man came from the dust of the earth, when did evolution take place?

When are you going to start paying attention to the Bible?? Genesis 3:20 states that Eve was the mother of all living. There is such a thing as context. The animal reproduce after their own kind and so does man. Eve is the mother of all living humans. You try to make out that you are a wealth of knowledge, but you can’t read a simple sentence and get it right.

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Is the Bible right or is it wrong?? The bible never tells us something changed on the land. Through out the 6 days something new happened but nothing changed. Did God not say that it was good? if so why change anything?

Is Jesus just a building block?

How did the Earth bring forth life? Not evolution. God created it all.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

sure......Im off on the weekends and have lots of free time, and no one posts squat....

But come Monday and everyone starts posting like its going out of style.....

quit crabbing and post a credible answer.

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Originally Posted by Saxon

quit crabbing and post a credible answer.

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I think I have a right to be a bit crabby....

But as you have asked me so nicely to go have a look at the newer left comments, I shall go see whats new....:)

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Originally Posted by Saxon

Genesis 2:7 states that the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

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I believe the point I was making is that in the Bible we see that humans share a common source....a starting point with the animals, (like the great apes)

That source is the very ground of the earth itself.

According to the Text we are part of the Earth that has come to life.
(as all all the other animals that we share this with)

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Originally Posted by Saxon

If man came from the dust of the earth, when did evolution take place?

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The Bible does not "teach" evolution, rather it teaches what walks hand-in-hand with evolution and is not in conflict with evolution.

Evolution is a study of how the earth came to have life on it.
the Bible is more interested in the "who" put life here question.

So the point of science is not the same point that the bible has.
However, because both science and evolution as well as the book of Genesis are talking about the same events in early earth history we do see that the things that say fit well with each other, and give the student a very well-rounded understanding of our history and how we came to be us.....

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Originally Posted by Saxon

If man came from the dust of the earth, when did evolution take place?

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as far as I know, the last known change to the evolution of man into what we now call "Modern Man" happend about 10,000 years ago.

Now evolution never stops, its always going on even to this very day.
but the ability of man to see it is kinda limited due to our current levels of science.

But lets just back up and see what the Bible is saying and if that compares to science?

Now according to evolution, alllife stems from the first building blocks of ife that is actually of this earth itself...in a very real way we are the earth 'sprung to life"


This is confirmed in genesis when it tells us that humans and animals are from the ground of this planet.
We are a part of this planet...the planet is our source and its where we are from.



So in both science and in Genesis we see this same idea taught, that humans are a part of this planet and its our source...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

When are you going to start paying attention to the Bible?? Genesis 3:20 states that Eve was the mother of all living.



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I was actually just pointing out to all the people that believe that "animals die due to Adam's sin" that this is simply not taught in the Bible,and that you cant say that "all death" including the animals, is due to Adam just as you cant say that Eve was the mother of all the living...including the animals.

Eve was NOT the mother of the animals because she was created AFTER the animals!!!!!!
So that knocks down the idea that animals death is due to Adam's sin...

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Originally Posted by Saxon

How did the Earth bring forth life? Not evolution. God created it all.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

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Evolution is a tool.
A tool for who?.....the Maker....the Creator!

Evolution is just like the wind, or time, or the sea...
All are things the Lord has made...all change things on this earth.

and....all should be respected as being part of the Lord's design for this world.

so.....

I asked a YEC teacher-

"What is the very first thing the Bible lists as being created by God "In the beginning"?


I ask you the same question now....what is listed first in the beginning?

You are missing the whole point of the Bible. God created. creation and evolution are diametrically opposed. All lies have a bit of truth.

"you cant say that Eve was the mother of all the living...including the animals." that is totally your story. Anyone that reads the bible, except you, knows that it is not remotely suggesting that Eve is the mother of the animals.

There was no death until Adam sinned. Stick to the Bible and you will be better informed.

The bible credits God as directly creating from nothing. No tools required. Show the scripture that states what you are suggesting.